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Substitution question

M macduckMember
My son is a FR and played in his first game yesterday (late start here in western Oregon due to heavy rain & cold).

I wasn't able to attend his first game so I didn't witness what happened, but he was a sub at the beginning of the game. In the top of the 3rd he entered and batted. He hit into a FC and ended up at lst base. The home team's coach calls time and confers with the ump and my son is declared out for some kind of substitution infraction. He told me the explanation was he was supposed to enter the game initially only on defense before he could bat for the starter he subbed for. This seems like a weird rule.

Trying to find info on this via the net as I don't have a NFHS rule book. Does the starter have to bat at least once before his sub can hit in his spot in the order? Having to go in on defense first seems like a weird rule as that isn't the norm in other levels of baseball I'm aware of. Maybe some other sub infraction occurred and my son's explanation is incorrect.
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coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Welcome to the site Macduck. Honestly, I've never heard of any type of rule like this. You are allowed to put players into the lineup at any point. The only restricts are on when you want to reenter a player. Only starters allowed one reentery after they leave the lineup. Once a sub enters the game and comes out they are done.

We do have an "Ask the Ump" forum and this post would get much better response in there. The umps who post there are awesome in their knowledge of the rules and do a great job of explaining things.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
This sounds a lot like what happens when you tell the 1st person in a line of 10 people a story, and by the time the last guy tells the story its much different than when it started. Wink


Exactly. That's why when anyone asks me an umpiring question, I start it off as I did above.

This also goes back to the thread on lack of capable scorers. I had a few <ahem> interesting calls in a DH I did earlier this week. I looked at the box score and none of the calls were reflected properly (e.g. Smith grounded into double play, 6-4-3, Jones out; not what really happened, which was intentional interference on Jones.)

This set was on the radio, and I wish I could get the broadcast to hear if the commentators actually knew what was going on.
Last edited by Matt13
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
That suggests a somewhat loaded question: Did the umpiring crew communicate what was happening to the spectators, scorekeeper, or commentators? Does the umpiring crew think they should communicate to anyone other than game participants?

For the last half dozen years, I've been either spectator or scorekeeper (because I'm a dad) at a lot of baseball games. Typically when an "interesting" play occurs, I don't know what was called. I can guess, but I don't know. On a force play at second, if there was no throw to first, it is clear. If there was a throw to first, and the play at first was at all close, usually all I know for sure is that the B/R is out. Could be because the throw beat the runner or it could be because of interference.

One way to tell everybody at the field is to wait until continuous action has stopped, and then the calling umpire points to 2nd, turns and points to first, and then gives the out sign. Most people know what that means.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
That suggests a somewhat loaded question: Did the umpiring crew communicate what was happening to the spectators, scorekeeper, or commentators? Does the umpiring crew think they should communicate to anyone other than game participants?

For the last half dozen years, I've been either spectator or scorekeeper (because I'm a dad) at a lot of baseball games. Typically when an "interesting" play occurs, I don't know what was called. I can guess, but I don't know. On a force play at second, if there was no throw to first, it is clear. If there was a throw to first, and the play at first was at all close, usually all I know for sure is that the B/R is out. Could be because the throw beat the runner or it could be because of interference.

One way to tell everybody at the field is to wait until continuous action has stopped, and then the calling umpire points to 2nd, turns and points to first, and then gives the out sign. Most people know what that means.


In this case, there was no throw. This umpire saw the interference, called "Time," pointed at and called the runner out, turned to first, and pointed BR out.

The reality is that there is are set mechanics for this, and that few people outside of the umpiring realm pay attention.

BTW, 3FG, I've seen your posts in the umpire forum. I know you're an umpire in scorer's skin...
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
My daughter (a SB P) had the same thing happen to her in a tournament this weekend. She went up to bat, unannounced, took a strike, the opposition's coach complained she was not announced to the umpires or opposing team and was sent on her way. The next gal in the lineup inherited her strike. Daughter was banished to the dugout for the rest of the game.

After about 16 games, this would've been her first at bat. She's been left in the on deck circle several other times when the last out was made. My "swing at the first strike" mantra has never been more important.

Also, if you're a sub in HS baseball. ANNOUNCE yourself to the HP. If he looks at you with a funny look and says he's got it, nothing hurt. If he says, "how the H are you?" you've saved yourself an AB.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMoff:
My daughter (a SB P) had the same thing happen to her in a tournament this weekend. She went up to bat, unannounced, took a strike, the opposition's coach complained she was not announced to the umpires or opposing team and was sent on her way. The next gal in the lineup inherited her strike. Daughter was banished to the dugout for the rest of the game.

After about 16 games, this would've been her first at bat. She's been left in the on deck circle several other times when the last out was made. My "swing at the first strike" mantra has never been more important.

Also, if you're a sub in HS baseball. ANNOUNCE yourself to the HP. If he looks at you with a funny look and says he's got it, nothing hurt. If he says, "how the H are you?" you've saved yourself an AB.


Don't know about softball, but this would be an unreported sub in baseball. Legal.
Last edited by Matt13
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
Don't know about softball, but this would be an unreported sub in baseball. Legal.


Matt, not sure I understand your reply (maybe NOT legal?)... I've seen baseball players report themselves, but the coach usually points to the player from the thirdbase coaching box, so maybe that is the 'official' sub?

My daughter said they're supposed to ask the coach if they'd been reported, to remind him. She didn't / he didn't and she was out.

I've seen players assume a position on defense and aren't announced until an inning or two later when they come up to bat. I've always wondered if that was legal, but never looked it up. With multiple subs & position changes, this can be a pain for the scorekeeper because you need to show them in the field for defense, but aren't really sure who is in for who until they come up. Some software packages are more forgiving than others with handling this situation.
Last edited by JMoff
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMoff:
…I've seen players assume a position on defense and aren't announced until an inning or two later when they come up to bat. I've always wondered if that was legal, but never looked it up. With multiple subs & position changes, this can be a pain for the scorekeeper because you need to show them in the field for defense, but aren't really sure who is in for who until they come up. Some software packages are more forgiving than others with handling this situation.


Heck, in my experience, there’s only an announcer at perhaps half the games at most, and the SK is just left to his/her own devices. Frown

In a way I understand how its come to that, what with many books being kept in the dugout, and many others being kept by parents or students, so there’s no reason to say squat about defensive changes. But as an SK, it really pi$$es me off because I try to do the best job possible to provide accurate meaningful numbers.

The software thing is something interesting though. Having written my own scoring program, I can honestly say there’s no way possible I can see to easily correct the defense, an inning or two after changes have been made. What I’ve done is make myself a little note, then after the game when there’s all kinds of time, I go into the actual data and make what changes are necessary, and its really a huge PITA because not only do track PO’s Asst’s, and E’s on defense, I attach the defenders to things like walks, Ks, and touches.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMoff:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
Don't know about softball, but this would be an unreported sub in baseball. Legal.


Matt, not sure I understand your reply (maybe NOT legal?)... I've seen baseball players report themselves, but the coach usually points to the player from the thirdbase coaching box, so maybe that is the 'official' sub?

My daughter said they're supposed to ask the coach if they'd been reported, to remind him. She didn't / he didn't and she was out.

I've seen players assume a position on defense and aren't announced until an inning or two later when they come up to bat. I've always wondered if that was legal, but never looked it up. With multiple subs & position changes, this can be a pain for the scorekeeper because you need to show them in the field for defense, but aren't really sure who is in for who until they come up. Some software packages are more forgiving than others with handling this situation.


There is no requirement to report in baseball. It's a PITA, but no penalty.
J JWC32100+ posts
JMoff, what Matt13 means is simple. An unreported substitute is perfectly legal in both OBR and FED baseball rules.

The FED rules are 2-36-2 and 3-1-1.

2-36-2
...An unreported substitute is a player who, by rule, can be in the game but has entered without reporting.

3-1-1
...Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:
a. a runner takes the place of a runner he has replaced,
b. a pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate,
c. a fielder reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, or
d. a batter takes his place in the batter's box.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
JWC32:
Thanks for the clarification I'll have to go through the FED book for softball to figure this out...

I'm on record as saying softball has too many dang rules... They have a flex, DP and EP. I've seen our coach looking at his lineup cards for minutes on end trying to figure it all out. He has 13 healthy players and one of them doesn't play as a practice player. How hard can it be?

I'm old school, bat 9 position players or have a DH for one of them and be done (FED).

Our SB team legally had two players occupying the same spot in the lineup while both where on the field at the same time. I wouldn't have figured it out except I was sitting down the OF line with our 'head coach' who is out on maternity leave and she was walking me through all the unique substitution rules. I need to read their rules a little closer (apparently).

Baseball is so much simpler...

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