Fair enough. I'm using the elbow as a point of reference, but it really involves feeling the whole body move. It's the load moving through the body in sequence.
I am a bit less eloquent than you in relating it to others. As you know...I have only one student and I'm more of a student than a teacher.
I think we're pretty close...which is good.
quote:I agree (in principal) with what you are tring to accomplish with lifting the rear shoulder, but if he continues to fire his top hand too soon it won't fix his problem.
I think, sometimes, the hands fire too early because the rear arm is dropping too soon. The hands go forward to stay ahead of the elbow.
The one plane swingers seem to pinch the front shoulder a little more, and the rear elbow elevates as the front arm stretches across the chest and the hands stay relative to the shoulder.
He needs to understand the sequence and maintain momentum. If he knows what he is seeking, he will find the way that fits him.
Tom has always talked about an X-factor stretch move that MLB hitters do....Some will say it's a scapula load thing or a back elbow thing or some other body part thing....I only know it does happen.....
When the back hip fires forward into the swing, the hands stretch backward and inward into a really late load tightening....This creates a delay between the hips and the hands...
I see the back elbow dropping as the late hands load happens....That's what I see, anyway...
And, when I swing a bat, I feel the back elbow dropping during this late hands loading, also...
When the back hip fires forward into the swing, the hands stretch backward and inward into a really late load tightening....This creates a delay between the hips and the hands...
I see the back elbow dropping as the late hands load happens....That's what I see, anyway...
And, when I swing a bat, I feel the back elbow dropping during this late hands loading, also...
quote:And, when I swing a bat, I feel the back elbow dropping during this late hands loading, also...
I agree.
From what I've seen, MLB swings are around shoulder height at foot plant (90 degrees from the ground). The poster was less than 45 degrees. His hands have to begin too soon in a subconscious act to stay ahead of the rear elbow. He needs an earlier mechanism that will allow him to drop rear elbow, but not force the hands to move too soon.
Either start the rear elbow higher (like Ryan Howard or to an extreme, Kevin Youkilis...not really, just pointing out that it is done), or elevate it during the forward stride. I would have him tinker with each to see if one is more effective than the other for him.
I find this clip to be a good example of sequencing....Back hip firing while the hands are going back....
I use that same one, along with ones of Bonds, Pujols and Hamilton to explain synchronization.
I always think it is important when using video in any discussion to keep in mind that pitch location and type of pitch will affect the swing. For example, the ability to stay connected on an inside fastball for additional frames OR the necessity to lose some connection on pitches away. Factor in pitches that break or changes of speed as well. So, we can all find video to make any number of points. Finding some common ground to discuss a swing then becomes "the trick."
In viewing this young man's swing, I'd first start with posture. I don't like the upright position of his body. I'd ask him to tilt more at the pelvis. Next, that elbow dropping is a sympton of something bigger. He drops that elbow and drops his hands to get on plane with the pitch. If he had that "tilt" I referenced, he'd be able to maintain connection better. I've had hitters before that showed the back of the stride foot to the pitcher and so, I don't have a problem with any of that. On the footplant and hips firing, I can see the need, again, to become more efficient. Well, that's a good start. Thanks for posting the video.
In viewing this young man's swing, I'd first start with posture. I don't like the upright position of his body. I'd ask him to tilt more at the pelvis. Next, that elbow dropping is a sympton of something bigger. He drops that elbow and drops his hands to get on plane with the pitch. If he had that "tilt" I referenced, he'd be able to maintain connection better. I've had hitters before that showed the back of the stride foot to the pitcher and so, I don't have a problem with any of that. On the footplant and hips firing, I can see the need, again, to become more efficient. Well, that's a good start. Thanks for posting the video.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Tom has always talked about an X-factor stretch move that MLB hitters do....Some will say it's a scapula load thing or a back elbow thing or some other body part thing....I only know it does happen.....
When the back hip fires forward into the swing, the hands stretch backward and inward into a really late load tightening....This creates a delay between the hips and the hands...
I see the back elbow dropping as the late hands load happens....That's what I see, anyway...
And, when I swing a bat, I feel the back elbow dropping during this late hands loading, also...
I agree! It's not how you get the stretch, but when and how much. Manny pulls his elbow up to get his stretch. Bruce pulls his back while having it high to start. Morneau and Mauer have their elbow down and pull back more with their hands. A young hitter can actually have his elbow at his side as long as he gets his hands back as his back hip fires or late in his forward stride, IMO.
Stretch here, stretch there, stretch back, stretch down. Sorry I dont believe in stretch or eccentric contraction.
quote:Originally posted by LAball:
Stretch here, stretch there, stretch back, stretch down. Sorry I dont believe in stretch or eccentric contraction.
I'm always open to new ideas. Do you have video (that you can post) of a MLB hitter not getting stretch?
quote:It's not how you get the stretch, but when and how much. Manny pulls his elbow up to get his stretch. Bruce pulls his back while having it high to start. Morneau and Mauer have their elbow down and pull back more with their hands.
I do agree.
quote:A young hitter can actually have his elbow at his side as long as he gets his hands back as his back hip fires or late in his forward stride, IMO.
I'm not sure I agree with it as I am interpreting it (which may just mean I'm not interpreting it right. lol) Are you saying elbow begins at, say 45 degree angle, and never elevates to, say shoulder height before coming down?
quote:I'm not sure I agree with it as I am interpreting it (which may just mean I'm not interpreting it right. lol) Are you saying elbow begins at, say 45 degree angle, and never elevates to, say shoulder height before coming down?
Yes, my Son didn't raise his elbow for years and hit very well at his level with very good power. I'm not saying pinned to the side, but not raised. I would say maybe 6 inches off the side and then hide the hands. I am also not saying this would work for MLB, but it certainly did up to High School.
I also don't think Ted Williams raised his elbow much either, but he did pull it back to get his stretch.
quote:I also don't think Ted Williams raised his elbow much either, but he did pull it back to get his stretch.
You are right, I have noticed his does not start high or elevate.
I do notice on my son, the lower slotted elbow is a problem. It gets him out of synch and creates other timing related problems trying to fix it. Once we video'd him and saw it, he went back to driving the ball in air. Something that was simple but missed by team coaches.
I never really understood why, but a lot of Lefthanded hitters start with a low back elbow. Like you said before, I think each hitter needs to find what works for them and body type has some to do with that.
OHdaddio,
Two things stand out for me. One, it looks like his swing is "long", sort of an upper-cut with dropping the back shoulder. This will lengthen his swing which takes longer to get to contact. Secondly, it looks like he takes his head off the ball. Maybe have him concentrate on keeping his head down longer and through contact with the ball. The hands and body will follow the eyes.
Good luck!
Two things stand out for me. One, it looks like his swing is "long", sort of an upper-cut with dropping the back shoulder. This will lengthen his swing which takes longer to get to contact. Secondly, it looks like he takes his head off the ball. Maybe have him concentrate on keeping his head down longer and through contact with the ball. The hands and body will follow the eyes.
Good luck!
quote:The hands and body will follow the eyes.
Actually, the hands and body will follow learned body movement....The movement of the eyes won't change that.....
The movement or non-movement of the head is dictated by how the body is moving.....And, even more to the point, when and how the body is moving....As related to weight shift and stretch, which enables/maintains momentum.....
At least, the way I see it....Not that I know, or anything....
quote:I agree! It's not how you get the stretch, but when and how much. Manny pulls his elbow up to get his stretch. Bruce pulls his back while having it high to start. Morneau and Mauer have their elbow down and pull back more with their hands. A young hitter can actually have his elbow at his side as long as he gets his hands back as his back hip fires or late in his forward stride, IMO.
Power, there's alot of good stuff here.....
MLB hitters do have more than one pattern to attain stretch....The important thing is to keep stretching till the back hip fires....That's where MLB hitters differ from amateur hitters....
Folks,
There are some excellent suggestions here for my son's improvement. We reviewed them last night and the sequence/stretch cues should be easy enough for him to incorporate. We've approached his hitting improvement as our Winter Project and he's making some nice strides. His goal is to make his high school team. I keep reminding him that freshman tryouts are only 14 months away. He's 13 yo, in grade eight and is 6'0''/168#.
He has a private lesson with Erik Laseke/Instructo Swing tonight. I've come to respect Erik's contributions to the hitting forums and look forward to his help.
Thank all of you for yours...
There are some excellent suggestions here for my son's improvement. We reviewed them last night and the sequence/stretch cues should be easy enough for him to incorporate. We've approached his hitting improvement as our Winter Project and he's making some nice strides. His goal is to make his high school team. I keep reminding him that freshman tryouts are only 14 months away. He's 13 yo, in grade eight and is 6'0''/168#.
He has a private lesson with Erik Laseke/Instructo Swing tonight. I've come to respect Erik's contributions to the hitting forums and look forward to his help.
Thank all of you for yours...
quote:Originally posted by powertoallfields:quote:Originally posted by LAball:
Stretch here, stretch there, stretch back, stretch down. Sorry I dont believe in stretch or eccentric contraction.
I'm always open to new ideas. Do you have video (that you can post) of a MLB hitter not getting stretch?
Sorry I havent gotten into posting videos. Dont know how and 2 lazy to learn. I would say there is seperation of Hip and shoulder in the MLB swing, but I wouldnt call it stretch and then rebound to add power ( like stretching a rubber band )
-Power in the MLB swing comes from an mechanical alignment of the front hip JOINT to have closed chained internal rotation during the swing. Amature hitters have misalignment of the pelvis on the femor = less hip joint internal rotation = less pevlic rotation to square up to the ball = needing to use the arms to rotate to square up to the ball. At least thats what I feel, but Im not in the MLB so go figue
