Teaching hitters.

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The very best hitting instructors are the ones who can adjust what they teach based on the needs of individual hitters as they can help every hitter, not jus the ones that happen to respond well to their pet cues.

Couldn't agree more. The challenge and the reward is finding the right set of words that clicks for a kid...Very good post.

Ditto LC, I have worked with hitting coaches who tell the guys the same things over and over. You have to have a feel for the fact that each hitter interprets what you say differently. I can say "stay back" to one hitter and it could mean something totally different to another hitter.

To me, the key is first, knowing what you want the hitter to do, then finding a way to get him to do it, through a mental fo physical que.

Now, DEEMAX, with regards to the feet. I feel that every swing is from the ground up, so if the feet don't work, all of the other components of the swing probably won't, either. I almost always use the example of if you were to guard Michael Jordan on the basketball court. I ask the hitter if he were to guard him, what would he do. Most of the time the kid gets into an athletic stance, knees bent, solid posture. Their feet usually are in a good position, not too open or closed, so that is a good start off point. Remember this is something I usually do with younger kids, but, if need be, I will do it with anyone.

Getting kids in an athletic stance is good because it gives them the feeling of being on the balls of their feet. Once they are athletic and on the balls of their feet their balance should improve, allowing you to look at other parts of their swing.

For me, I always start with the feet and move up.

Moderator,

Didn't mean to rock the boat. I'll move back to hitting!

Personally, I don't use ques at all. I put the hitter in the position I want them to be in at three separate points in the swing, explain why I want them there and tell them I don't care how they get to each, but I want them to get there. If after a time they can't get to the positions I want, then I will give them hints. I video tape each session and let the player see the progress. I show them video of MLB players that I feel fit their body type. If they don't like any of them, I give them the link to Siggy's and tell them to choose one. I will stop the video at the three points and show them how they got there. Until recently, I didn't understand the best way to get to the first position.

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I put the hitter in the position I want them to be in at three separate points in the swing,

Can you describe the three positions?

Yep... I'd like to hear your 3 points also.

http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Profes...sis_AlbertPujols.pdf



They are basically 16, 19, 22 in this example. They swing from 16 and 19, I then have them pivot to contact, pull back to 19 and swing and then to 16 and swing to get the feel of each. I do this off of a tee and then soft toss from 16 and 19. I want them to feel the torque of the core, bottom half pulling top half.

mic

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Personally, I don't use ques at all.

I thought you were a "knob to the ball" guy after reading your posts. Maybe Im not fully understanding your teaching technique.

Can a mom join this thread?

I am not very good at hitting a baseball (though I played fastpitch in college), but I'll share one cue that was taught to my son in HS.

Deemax asked, "How do you get a hitter to develop a running start?"

My son (who is now a college pitcher) took hitting lessons from former Twins catcher Terry Steinbach in HS. One of the first cues he learned that clicked for him was "When the pitcher shows you his shoulder, you show him yours."

When the pitcher started counter-rotating his shoulders, my son's shoulders would counter-rotate at an angle - the front shoulder dipped down a little while turning away from the pitcher, and the back shoulder and elbow came up a little during the counter-rotation. I think this helped accomplish Deemax's "running start".

He learned a ton of other things from Terry that greatly improved his hitting, including being able to see the pitches much better. I'll have to ask him if there were any specific cues involved in learning to see the ball better.

Julie

CoachB25

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Take your arms and hold them out in front of your body. Try as you might, you can’t prevent someone of comparable size from moving those hands downward. Now, take those same arms, bring them in close to your body and activate your bicep. It is virtually impossible for someone to put pressure on those arms and move them

Coach, I thought about this and your right, but only in relation to pushing something up over your head. The bat moves away from the body as you reach extension. For the above example to be more accurate IMO try to lay down on a bench press and see which you can hold longer, 225 lbs at full extension, or 225 6 inches off your chest.

Another example would be a running back hitting a defender with a stiff arm at full extension, or a bent arm with the hand only 6-8 inches from the shoulder. I agree that pulling someones arms down while they are extended vs closer to your body is easier, but I dont feel that relates to the leverage in the swing.

Let me know if my examples are lost in translation so I can clarify.

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Originally posted by deemax:
CoachB25

quote:

Take your arms and hold them out in front of your body. Try as you might, you can’t prevent someone of comparable size from moving those hands downward. Now, take those same arms, bring them in close to your body and activate your bicep. It is virtually impossible for someone to put pressure on those arms and move them

Coach, I thought about this and your right, but only in relation to pushing something up over your head. The bat moves away from the body as you reach extension. For the above example to be more accurate IMO try to lay down on a bench press and see which you can hold longer, 225 lbs at full extension, or 225 6 inches off your chest.

Another example would be a running back hitting a defender with a stiff arm at full extension, or a bent arm with the hand only 6-8 inches from the shoulder. I agree that pulling someones arms down while they are extended vs closer to your body is easier, but I dont feel that relates to the leverage in the swing.

Let me know if my examples are lost in translation so I can clarify.

deemax, if I had an ax and were going to try to cut the tree down, your saying that I don't have a better center of gravity and more power the closer the hands are to the body? I'm trying to think about having my arms straight and swinging on that plane and cutting down that tree. I know that if I keep my hands in closer to the body for a longer period of time, I will cut the tree down faster than the straight arm approach. However, JMHO.

One of these days, I'm going to buck up for one of those sites where I can posts clips since I have so many from so many sources showing hitters with their arms "extended" and those that have maintained connection longer. To me, and yes I have a different opinion than most people posting on this site recently, I prefer that. BTW, and again, no one I know preaches that those hands are locked in to that shoulder nature until the completion of the swing. It is a falicy many suggest when arguing various philosophies. The people I know who believe as I do speak in terms of whip and flail, etc.

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Originally posted by hsballcoach:
I have always liked the que, "Point your belly button to where you want to hit the ball." Meaning left, center, or right field depending on the pitch thrown.

Its funny you mention this. My brother asked one of his team mates how he hit the ball so far and hard the other way.... I will let him tell you his response.

Brett?

Yeah, I played with an older guy this past season who was smaller than most of the guys on our team but had very good power-to all fields. When I asked him about hitting the ball out the other way he said: "I try not to rotate my hips as much as if I pull the ball (meaning he points his belly button to the opposite field) and I try to extend an inch after contact to the opposite field." I had never heard that before, and whether he actually physically did that I'm not sure, but that is what goes through his head when he hits, and I know it works for him.

BeeMax:

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"I try not to rotate my hips as much as if I pull the ball (meaning he points his belly button to the opposite field) and I try to extend an inch after contact to the opposite field."

I made this side by side of David Wright for us hittingillustrated.com types. I wanted to show the adjustment made with the H-A-N-D-S to pitch location which goes against some religions.

On an outside pitch the hips still fire first, but they do not rotate as much.

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Originally posted by deemax:
mic

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Personally, I don't use ques at all.

I thought you were a "knob to the ball" guy after reading your posts. Maybe Im not fully understanding your teaching technique.

I tell them to direct the knob at the ball. I don't consider that a que, just a directive.

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Originally posted by Pronk:
BeeMax:

quote:

"I try not to rotate my hips as much as if I pull the ball (meaning he points his belly button to the opposite field) and I try to extend an inch after contact to the opposite field."

I made this side by side of David Wright for us hittingillustrated.com types. I wanted to show the adjustment made with the H-A-N-D-S to pitch location which goes against some religions.

On an outside pitch the hips still fire first, but they do not rotate as much.

I try to teach belly button and back knee to direction of ball with hands in front of belly button at contact.

Very nice illustration, Pronk.

The below is a quote from a well respected former HSBBW poster who passed away earlier this year. I feel his thoughts on "tipping" are worthy of discussion in this thread.

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From Swingbuster:
"Tip the barrel during the stride and aim for the inside seam on a ball on the tee and the elbow is not discussed.

I agree...don't coach it down or you will have it coming down prematurely and ruining the relationship of rear elbow / lead leg opening horizontal connections that define torque.

Tipping the barrel in hitting is the same as thumb down hand break in pitching. What happens at hand break in pitching.....the hips coil as the stride begins . What happens when you tip the barrel ...the hips coil as the stride begins.

When do the shoulders complete the load....just before foot plant . That is WHY and HOW the rear elbow gets to the TOP of the load cycle as the hips have opened and just before the front side blocks

It is important to see that"-Swingbuster R.I.P.

Dee and Bee to the Max, I respect both of your posts and opinions. Dee, you have obviously noticed that many of those "stone throwers" haven't much experience to draw on. They are more concerned with the semantics of the cue, which many have learned from video's and books, not from being there.
As was said earlier, I always view each hitter individually, then set a goal oriented session. What does the hitter feel they are doing right or wrong? What do they want to accomplish? Then I watch the swing over and over to see if there is something we can address for that player. But, the ultimate goal is to help this kid become more successful with his at bats. If a kid understands certain cues that another does not, and it helps the kid, then he may have success. Like BeeMax's teammate, his ideas in his head work for him. Sometimes I just flat out explain to a hitter where I want him to be both physically and mentally in order to accomplish a good at bat. I really think you guys are on the right path and have more to offer than most stone throwing trolls.

Coachric,

Thanks for the comments.

When I have my first session with a hitter, I usually set him up on the tee and let him swing away for a bit. You have got to see what the kid has first before you suggest anything.

Personally, I hit off the tee myself but not a whole lot, because you can do it by yourself (good thing) but it gets boring very quickly. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to work off the tee.

With almost all of the kids, they set up balls on the tee and whack them off one by one as fast as they can without bothering to check where they are set up in relation to the tee. Many times this is my first lesson with the kids. I ask them if they know where they make contact on a ball the other way, up the middle, and when they pull it. If they don't, I demostrate for them by holding a ball up in relation to the plate and where they should make contact on each pitch. after showing them that, I show them where to set up the tee for each pitch.

When you work off of a tee, you should have a goal on each swing, just as you should whenever you hit, no matter the drill. To best accomplish your goal, say if it is hitting the pitch low and away, set the tee up that way. Always stand the same distance away from the plate and move the tee to different locations that you would want the hitter to work on. Finally, always make sure the hitter takes enough time between each swing to set up and focus on what he is trying to accomplish with each swing. Ok, enough about tee work...

Anyway, during that first lesson, IMO you need to let the kid swing away for a few minutes. Sometimes what the kid is doing incorrectly is very apparent, sometimes not. I like to start by working with the feet, but sometimes the kids have good feet, so I just move up the body until I see something I feel can be better.

I think it is always important not to overload the kids in the first lesson as well. This is especially important if the kid needs a lot of work. Make sure that you work on the first thing that needs work and stick to that. If you start working on too much I think it takes back from the lesson. Rome wasn't built in a day, so focus on one thing until you feel he has it down.

The previous quote on bat tipping by Swingbuster gets to the heart of why it's important, but if I can use slightly different words..

Bat tipping can be thought of from the instructor's perspective as a means of creating or aiding in separation. Let's define separation merely as the hips firing while the shoulders resist. If you have the barrel loading out of plane, during your stride, and you have coiled your hips somewhat as part of the stride, then as the hips uncoil and open, you quickly take the hands from stacked to flat.

I use cues like Barrel High, but am careful to watch how they do it. Most youth hitters will have an angle in the back forearm that is going upward if you look from elbow to wrist. This is probably going to prevent getting the separation you need.

Swingbuster used to say a pronated back forearm cannot come forward to the ball. The intent therefore was to provide "purposeful wrist bind". The forearms must rotate when you go from stacked hands to flat, and since you have loaded the barrel out of plane, the time it takes to get into plane, you have already opened the hips.

As Chameleon puts it, Clear em,(hips)... Snap the pole. If the goal is to get a lower body running start, then bat tipping can help a hitter do this.

beemax,
We usually start BP sessions with hitting off the tee with the tee on the front of the plate on the outside corner. Then we move the tee to the middle and forward a bit. Next we go to inside corner and more forward. The goal is line drives to "right center" from the outside location, line drives up the middle or left center for the down the middle location and pulled for the inside location.

Then we go to soft toss and I try to repeat the locations but not in a given order. We're looking for the outside pitches to be hit the opposite way and the down the middle or inside pitches to be pulled if I manage to get the tosses the right distance forward.

Then if my arm doesn't hurt too much I'll throw some BP and see if he can do the same, although the focus is much more on line drives than the direction at that point.

CADad,

I do much of the same when I work with hitters. I like the progression you make from tee to soft toss to live BP.

For me, when I work with younger kids, I will tell them where I am going to toss the balls. This way they can gear themselves to stay back on the pitch away and have a goal of lining it hard to the opposite field. When I throw them down the middle, they can have the goal of smiking the ball gap to gap. And finally, when I throw the ball in, they can work on really turning on a pitch with the goal of pulling in the air and keeping it fair.

I almost always use front toss because I like the direction and the angle the ball comes from. I do front toss before every game I play in so I believe in it 100%.

As for BP, I really really enjoy throwing it, so any chance I get (as long as the kid isn't too young) I will throw to them eventually and try to work on the same things as front toss.

Thw older and more experienced kids get, the more I can work on pitch recognition, hitting in certain counts, etc. But for most of the kids I work with, we have to start simple and work our way to that.

Good stuff CADad and Beemax.
I too work tee, front toss, then live arm.

That progression allows us to work on things with a stationary ball, then a moving one.

I favor front toss because of the ability to pinpoint location and even change speed somewhat.
I also like the idea of telling them where we are going to work--inside, outside, etc.
My goal, however, is not to "fool" them (well sometimes ) but to develop confidence in their stroke. The number of times I mix it up has a lot to do with the age and "savvy" of the hitter I'm working with. I don't want to throw everything the same so they never have to adjust.
During live arm, I try to instruct as little as possible.
If necessary we will work back to front toss if things get out of sync.


Going from front toss to live arm the distance has changed and I get concerned with the timing of their load.

With that in mind, do you guys have a method you use in your teaching as to when you want them to load so as to have rhythm, continuous movement?
Don't want them rushed nor do I want them loading too early.???
A smoother, more timely load sure seems to enhance "mechanics".

Thoughts on timing of load?
I realize the speed of the pitchers they will face varies, but a general idea of how you teach the timing of the load would be appreciated.

As a general starting point in working with young hitters I'd go with pitchers front foot plant.

NYdad,

Which starting point, maybe I'm confused, which wouldn't be anything new, but....

I'm not sure that is the best way to go about it.

Only because when the pitchers foot lands the hitter should be starting to focus in on the pitchers release point rather than looking at his foot.

Probably not the best vision technique. I do think that might be a bit late also.

PG, as general starting point to load...hitter can see pitchers foot plant via peripheral vision, need not focus on the foot. Also must respectfully disagree on foot plant being too late in the process. I find foot plant to be the best cue when there young as it is also conducive to producing a continuous load/unload as opposed to starting too early, stopping, then unloading. Again it's only used as a reference point as kids will eventually adjust from there. Needless to say timing is not something you can really teach as there are simply too many variables involved.

I guess I was thinking from the standpoint of the start of the swing process, which to me comes before any load. That's why I asked which starting point.

IMO There is a point to soft focus (see with peripheral vision) and sharp focus. Once the foot of a pitcher lands I believe a hitter should be gearing in on sharp focus on the release point. Most hitters actually soft focus (relax) on something like the pitchers hat or chest, before going into sharp focus. I just don't know if seeing a pitchers feet is part of this for anyone. But if it works for you, great!

I do agree that timing is hard to teach. But I think hitters can put themselves in a good position to help timing. I think that's what your getting at.

I just don't agree with a pitchers feet having anything to do with it, even if it might be good timing. (if that makes any sense) I think at that point in the pitch, it's too late for any peripheral vision... But I could be wrong. It's been a long time since I actually faced a live pitcher!

Maybe others could add their opinions on this.

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Most hitters actually soft focus (relax) on something like the pitchers hat or chest, before going into sharp focus.

Yes...and because of the distance between the two, the hitter can still determine when the pitcher is landing that front foot IMO.

Let me also add that most of the robotic type swings you see nowadays is a product of too much emphasis on teaching timing as the kids (and many coaches) take the cues as absolutes thus the kids aren't making the necessary adjustments.

Lclif

quote:

With that in mind, do you guys have a method you use in your teaching as to when you want them to load so as to have rhythm, continuous movement?
Don't want them rushed nor do I want them loading too early.???
A smoother, more timely load sure seems to enhance "mechanics".

Thoughts on timing of load?
I realize the speed of the pitchers they will face varies, but a general idea of how you teach the timing of the load would be appreciated.

I would love to know some other coaches opinions and ideas are on teaching a load. What is the best terminolgy to use with hitters who have dead hand action? How do we encourage continuous movement while making a powerful load?

I want to figure out the best approach for teaching this. This is one of the most under-taught yet most important functions of the swing. Lets teach it right.

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How do we encourage continuous movement while making a powerful load?

Take some whiffle balls, stand close to the hitter and throw to him simulating the fastest speed he will be facing at whatever age he is....Don't move on until he can hit this pitching....

IMO, this is the starting point for ALL hitters....

Learning swing adjustments (speed and location) is predicated off of slowing down the body movements necessary to hit the fastball....The body movements don't change, they just slow down....

IMO, I believe most coaches attempt to teach this process backwards....

A hitter should learn body movement to hit the fastball, then learn how to slow it down......

Not, learn body movement to hit slower pitching, then try to learn how to speed it up....

I don't believe players learn timing by someone telling them when to begin their body movements....

I believe they learn timing by failing to square the bat on the ball against pitching......

And, if they don't see fast pitching (simulated or otherwise) in practice, they will lose their sense of timing for fast pitching in games.....

Timing for offspeed is predicated off of the fastball, IMO.....If you can't hit the pitcher's fastball, you're in trouble physically and mentally.....He'll eat you up.....

I want to shift gears from timing because everybody should know the hitters eyes should be level and focused on baseball out of the hand and not pitcher's feet. A lot worse than a blink if you're looking at the pitcher's landing foot. Take a look at a before and after of Alex Gordon, and tell me what you see in his front foot stride peace RS

Shep, starting your load as pitcher plants that lead foot from a timing perspective....i.e. as a point in time...and who said anything about focusing on the pitchers foot?

PG wrote: most hitters actually soft focus (relax) on something like the pitchers hat or chest, before going into sharp focus.

I wrote:
Yes...and because of the distance between the two, the hitter can still determine when the pitcher is landing that front foot IMO.

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What is the best terminolgy to use with hitters who have dead hand action?

Step one - remove metal bat and insert wood bat in hitters hands as soon as possible.

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A hitter should learn body movement to hit the fastball, then learn how to slow it down......

Yes and that fastball varies pitcher to pitcher which is why Johnny shouldn't take that timing cue as an absolute and start his load the same for every pitcher.

IMO Kids would be better served if they were taught proper load/unload technique and let them figure out the timiing aspect on their own thru trial and error instead of trying to teach kids when to load and when to unload which generally produces a robotic type swing.

When the hitter learns to float the bat on off-speed pitches, he can accomplish what you describe NYDad as "slowing down the timing."
I defintely agree with your sentiments regarding the woodbat. Stan demonstrates in the pic above, the sweetness.

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When the hitter learns to float the bat on off-speed pitches, he can accomplish what you describe NYDad as "slowing down the timing."

Shep, absolutely......

If the front foot comes down a little early no big deal if you know how to float the bat and keep stretching........

You just take longer to load.....Make the loading process slower....

Hands to the ball hitters can't do this....

You're a wise person, Shep....And, in more ways than just baseball....