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The #1 Myth About The Baseball Swing

V VinnyMember
Hi guys,

I've noticed a lot talk in the forum about this swinging down concept, and I too can't understand where coaches get this idea of swinging down on the ball, its completely a Myth and wrong...I actually just posted a video of me explaining this concept and shows exactly what NOT to do and along with the CORRECT way...you can check it out at www.MazzurcoBaseball.com . There is nothing for sale here just trying to help baseball players out as I was affected by getting poor advice from coaches in the past also and know what you or your kid is going through. Just opt-in with your e-mail address when you go to the website and hit the Access Now button and you'll get access to the video that explains and clarifies all this...Enjoy!

Vinny

#1 Myth About The Baseball Swing
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V VinnyMember
Hey guys,

I've been getting a lot of good feedback on this video about the Myth about the Swing Down concept...Let me know if you can think of any other Myths about the baseball swing or questionable concepts about the swing and I will see if I can put another video together for you guys to differentiate between the Myths and the Non-Myths so you know what really works, or what the MLB players are really doing, not just what someone thinks they’re doing…which many times results in poor information being passed on to kids.

Vin

The #1 Myth About The Baseball Swing
Last edited by Vinny
Y Yardbird100+ posts
Vinny,

Not so fast here, you might wonder why the top batting instructors use this age old cue?

In coaching there is a classic effective trick of over extending a teach to get favorable results in difficult and previously ingrained bad mechanic.
Since we are built to drop the back side (barrel dump, Bow loop lead in) and drive up through the front side (corresponding wave Bow loop finish) batters tend to drive radically up through the ball putting it on the ground if contacted exactly at the back of the ball. Preferable contact is when the barrel vector and the ball vector have just slight miss direction with the barrel exiting just below the ball exit imparting backspin resulting in lift and carry. The Cue swing down is only intended to mean do not let you initial forwards drive force when and after you turn the corner to drop below your deltoid in a an initial dump that will have you up through the ball causing mostly top spin exit tendencies giving you ball dive not lift.

The Cue is worded incorrectly but if you try to swing down it still will still not happen but will fix the problem by way of over extending the initial drive timeline mechanic so that you can attain a straighter barrel path to the ball with as little contact upwards loop as possible.
Last edited by Yardbird
V VinnyMember
Yardbird,

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you...I can guarantee you that Manny Ramirez arguably one of the best hitters in baseball does not speak or explain hitting in this kind of concept that you just did and I can guarantee you that he does have a slight upper cut to his swing...Check out this video on you tube of him...www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7p6nvA6po

(In response to someone's question above I can access and click on a video in you tube, but don't know how to upload video on youtub)

Also I don't agree with everything the narrator says in the video but most of it is correct, such as the part on Manny Ramirez having a slight upper cut, which is the point I'm trying to get a cross.

Enjoy,

Vinny

manny ramirez swing analysis
Last edited by Vinny
Y Yardbird100+ posts
Vinny,

quote:
“I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you.”

This is a good thing, if you are willing to discuss it then all is good.
quote:
“I can guarantee you that Manny Ramirez arguably one of the best hitters in baseball does not speak or explain hitting in this kind of concept that you just did”

I can guarantee you that Manny Ramirez arguably could not teach a youth batter the first thing about what he is actually doing as seen in his many changes in his approach especially in his new Dodger one last year where his swing went upwards loop more from his new barrel dump.
quote:
I can guarantee you that he does have a slight upper cut to his swing”

Key word here slight in the past!
quote:
“Check out this video on you tube of him”

I have analyzed his varying approaches since he became shown.
quote:
”such as the part on Manny Ramirez having a slight upper cut, which is the point I'm trying to get a cross”

As long as this slight upper cut does not turn into a large one were OK but history has proven that this is a constant fight to maintain path to contact that the cue “swing down” to it cures by allowing you to pronate your forearm at the last 1/3 of the forwards barrel
path into contact that eliminates the excessive upper cut.
quote:
“But the problem is that too many kids are getting the wrong impression”

This is because internet diagnosers see a slight uppercut then proclaim you are supposed to voluntarily contract an uppercut and since we uppercut naturally already this belief exacerbates to much uppercut, then when they here an instructor say swing down, it means to them at contact. This was never a problem until the internet came into existence with it’s poor 30 frames a second grainy video that proved what these new Gurus believed, so now they teach voluntary uppercut, destroying swings daily.
You better rethink your game plan here?
quote:
“are actually swinging down through the ball, not a good thing”

These are only the ones that have other mechanical problems like getting out over the front side from a poor pivot. If you perform the pivot timely and correctly by keeping your weight evenly distributed and contact out in front depending on where the ball is placed in or out it is impossible to make contact with a downward strike, it is always slightly upwards even with the swing down cued. The difference is the kids that practice the downwards path create more backspin exit on the ball by pronating their forearm at contact.

JPontiac has it right!!!!!

Cball,

quote:
“with the exception of C. Lau which top hitting guy teaches to swing down?”

Defiantly not Upstein who is now finally getting it changing a few things.
The guys that have it right and do not bother to push perceived beliefs on the internet as though they have invented something that is new! Guys that are sitting on the bucket for a living and hands on teaching pros as pro roving batting coaches and many more at all levels and they all recognize that the barrel actually travels slightly up at contact with a backspin producing swing. depending on the balls altitude.
Here is one listen to what he says at the end of the video. Most understand this
http://www.youtube.com/user/Rightview1
Last edited by Yardbird
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
This is because internet diagnosers see a slight uppercut then proclaim you are supposed to voluntarily contract an uppercut and since we uppercut naturally already this belief exacerbates to much uppercut, then when they here an instructor say swing down, it means to them at contact.


This is the nuttiest thing I have seen today. I guess Ted Williams is an Internet guru.

All MLB hitters use an uppercut swing. I feel sorry for anyone left that still teaches to swing down.

quote:

These are only the ones that have other mechanical problems like getting out over the front side from a poor pivot. If you perform the pivot timely and correctly by keeping your weight evenly distributed and contact out in front depending on where the ball is placed in or out it is impossible to make contact with a downward strike, it is always slightly upwards even with the swing down cued. The difference is the kids that practice the downwards path create more backspin exit on the ball by pronating their forearm at contact.


I take it back, this is the nuttiest thing.

You don't have to be any kind of guru at all. Even a 5 yo can see this is an uppercut.


Yet, many coaches still use a (level ball) 2 tee drill. What are you teaching?

/trying a blunt approach tonight Big Grin
Last edited by SultanofSwat
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Agree with Yardbird (ahhhh....run for the hills!) and Coach May on this. It isn't hard to see that most MLB hitters swing slightly up on the waist high pitch. There are also MLB hitters who uppercut. If we were looking at low outside fastballs we'd see a lot of MLB hitters swinging slightly down at contact, although not necessarily on purpose.

The cue of swinging down or swinging level is good for reducing an excessive uppercut as long as the instructor is careful to make sure it doesn't become a reality rather than just a cue. It was a cue that Ted Williams used when he was trying to correct an excessive uppercut in a young hitter.

My pet peeve in all this is those who are trying so hard to cut down on instructors who have been successful in teaching students with whatever cues they use simply because they can look at a student and suggest a change that will move them toward what works for that particular student. There's a big difference between knowing what the "correct" mechanics are and being a good instructor.

BTW, there are a few players, a minority to be certain, at every level who will get the best results from a level or even slightly downward swing.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
It's fun to watch people rationalize that "down" really means "up". Only in baseball... we love our myths, and our myth-tellers.

quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
My pet peeve in all this is those who are trying so hard to cut down on instructors who have been successful in teaching students with whatever cues they use simply because they can look at a student and suggest a change that will move them toward what works for that particular student. There's a big difference between knowing what the "correct" mechanics are and being a good instructor.


CaDad, you are one of my favorites here. But, my pet peeve is when we gladly pass on these myths to hundreds of new youth coaches year after year, just so we can protect a few "hero" players or instructors who have been teaching the wrong thing. I'm a nobody, and I taught "swing down" (and worse) years ago, and I stopped doing it as soon as I realized I was wrong.

Maybe we need to host a celebrity rehab for chronic downers.
Last edited by SultanofSwat
CS coach scotty10+ posts
I have had a lot of problems understanding this swing down swing up argument. I guess I just always understood that the swing travels up matching the angle of the pitch before during and after contact. To get my swing moving upward, matching the downward angle of the pitch, and starting with my hands at upper chest level, I could only do one of two things. Drop my hands and swing with an uppercut or swing down. At no point did I ever believe that swinging down meant "down thru the ball". Once the top hand elbow locks to the body and the upper body opens up then the swing moves upward. Not opening up and disconnecting is the only way to keep the swing going down.

Again I always thought the swing down cue just meant "don't drop your hands". I do see though how someone that hears this, doesn't have a clue about the swing, and teaches it wrong can cause problems. I guess my hitting instructor (my dad) just knew what he was doing because as his student I always understood this.
Y Yardbird100+ posts
Sultanofswat,

quote:
“This is the nuttiest thing I have seen today. I guess Ted Williams is an Internet guru”

Ted was a dead pull hitter where all his swing we’re way out in front where bow loop exit is exacerbated and he still maintained his hand height at the turn.He could not handle low and away but that did not seem to enlighten many pitchers back then.
quote:
”All MLB hitters use an uppercut swing.”

This is far from accurate, very few lead in by dropping first! Giving you 90% of the barrels path heading down until contact.
quote:
“I feel sorry for anyone left that still teaches to swing down”

With a good start this cue need not be used and when it is the instructor need’s to explain why correctly.
quote:
“Even a 5 yo can see this is an uppercut”

But can someone over 5cyo keep from trying to prove their point with letter high examples.
quote:
What are you teaching?

The only reason coach May has my back here is because his butt has a permanently imbedded upside-down 5gal. imprinted in bass relief on it like mine and has seen enough ball exits and barrel paths to see how it really works not to mention he probably has swung a Fungo about ten to the sixth power times and felt how it works, experience has it's advantages.

I use different terminology but understand that even the poisonous cue “swing down” to it is inert and actually fixes many swing starts and really never ruins any.

CaDad,

quote:
“My pet peeve in all this is those who are trying so hard to cut down on instructors who have been successful in teaching students with whatever cues they use simply because they can look at a student and suggest a change that will move them toward what works for that particular student. There's a big difference between knowing what the "correct" mechanics are and being a good instructor.”

This is a Web gem!!!
quote:
“BTW, there are a few players, a minority to be certain, at every level who will get the best results from a level or even slightly downward swing.”

If you are trying to hit tape measure shots, down is king as with the LeBron of baseball!



coachscotty
quote:
“Not opening up and disconnecting is the only way to keep the swing going down”

Strong top hand pronation where the backside wrist continues inertia built up by early torso rotation then arm extention keeps it on path and is a better Kinetic chain than the disconnected isometric wristed all rotational believers insist on!

Vinny?
Last edited by Yardbird
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Yardbird:

If you are trying to hit tape measure shots, down is king as with the LeBron of baseball!





yard, a cage clip with a ball at the knees, hmmm. Do you normally model your swing after cage clips? Do we have any idea what he's working on here? His back foot action is completely different than his game swings (edit: after looking at this by frame, the back foot is OK at contact).

Here is Harper actually swinging at a ball a couple inches above his knees in a game this year, where he uses the same swing as MLB players (uppercut). See 0:21 mark - they even made a nice little yellow graphic to point out the swing path.
Last edited by SultanofSwat
trojan-skippertrojan-skipper1,000+ posts
Okay this "he keeps the bat in the hitting zone" is ridiculous to me.
By that logic you should hit a golf ball really hard by keeping the club along the grass and running 15 yards.... Wow he keeps his club in the hitting zone for a long time...

Who cares? It's all about the moment of pop. Of course you swing up on a knee high pitch. Of course your hands go down to get your swing going (unless you are swinging at a neck high fastball.. Then go ahead and keep it level Jonny)
Y Yardbird100+ posts
Sulty,

I watched the video and I have seen this kid many times and discussed him because my best friend since childhood is one of his batting instructors.I know what they work on!

quote:
"they even made a nice little yellow graphic to point out the swing path"


Unfortunately the nice little graphic does not match the swing path from start to finish! Watch the bat appear below the graphic loop in when it appears again at exit. If what you see is typical in all MLB batters? tells us much.

Vinny?
Last edited by Yardbird
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
The pitch is belt high , better known as a c o c k shot. Give us a clip of a ball knee hit. The bat will go down lower and lift to get on plane with the pitch. In this clip take a look at the first red dot in front of his body where contact takes place. That is slight lift or loft in the swing to contact. It is not an uppercut. If he were making contact at the 2nd or 3rd dot out in front that would be an uppercut swing.

You must swing down to start the swing then get on plane. This is a perfect example of getting in the slot. Picture a pitch at the knees and imagine where the barrell would be on contact. Then imagine slight lift or loft on contact to drive the baseball. Pitch location does matter.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
This whole thread makes my head hurt really really bad! What are we arguing over? Anyone who even knows what a baseball looks like knows that a batter swings through an arc first coming from a high position to a lower position and then generally back up into a high position again. Generally speaking, contact is made on a level plane at a 90 degree angle with his torso. This is what is meant by a level swing and making contact on that plane. If one were to draw a line from the front toe to the top of the head at contact then the bat should be on a plane at contact coming out at 90 degrees from that plane for most power.

This is the same principle as it applies to pitching. For most power a pitcher at release will have his arm extended at a perfect 90 degrees from his torso on a plane.

So, does the double tee work where they learn to swing downwards to the ball? No! It fails miserably because batters are learning to hit a ball on a downward plane. My son was taught this on a travel team and it took a little time trying to recorrect his swing and adjust his philosophy after that. So, how do you teach the proper swing? First- do nothing if they aren't doing anything wrong to begin with- that is the first mistake. Most kids have a natural swing. I always say- don't do un-natural drills.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Generally speaking, contact is made on a level plane at a 90 degree angle with his torso. This is what is meant by a level swing and making contact on that plane.


I agree that what you describe here is what most would call a "level swing". Is this a level swing?



Could this hitter use the 2 tee drill (where 2 tees are at the same height and you try to miss the ball in the back)?
Last edited by SultanofSwat
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Generally speaking, contact is made on a level plane at a 90 degree angle with his torso. This is what is meant by a level swing and making contact on that plane.


I agree that what you describe here is what most would call a "level swing". Is this a level swing?



Could this hitter use the 2 tee drill (where 2 tees are at the same height and you try to miss the ball in the back)?


The batter in your post does have a level swing. It is a good depiction showing that at contact the plane of the bath barrel path is moving at a 90 degree angle in regards to the torso angle.

The two tee drill would not work- it never can work unless one is just working on pounding balls directly into the ground for some strange reason.

Note in the bat path that the only point where he is swinging down where one could place a tee is in the first part of the swing and that after that where he actually makes contact is like 3 feet past that point of downward movement.
So I guess if one was willing to place the two tees 3 feet apart he could achieve it- but what purpose would that do other than create a mental block for the batter to try to overcome.

One would have to place one tee in the third red dot location and the second one in the 5th red dot location and even then, the two tees are still basically the same height.

If one were to place the tees according to the common drill the would have to place the first tee at the 3rd red dot location and then the next tee at the very next red dot location. But this is not a good power position for a pitch over the heart of the plate. All this would teach is to pound ground balls back to the pitcher, and who wants that?
JPontiacJPontiac500+ posts
I went to a Chicago White Sox Training Academies hitting camp when I was very young. Each camper was given a booklet at the end of the camp with a fairly intensive review of the swing mechanics they advocated. I probably have it somewhere back home.

What sticks out to me is a visual depiction of swing path. The book said to imagine that the swing path is like a plane landing and then immediately taking off again. Obviously, one would make contact somewhere between the landed and taking off phase, depending on the trajectory you want the ball to be hit.

I also remember in their discussion of doing drills and tee work, they wrote that not everyone has to work on their swing and work on mechanics. The book said that every now and then, an Albert Belle comes along that can naturally hit the ball at an elite level. The book kindly suggested that the reader probably is not Albert Belle, and therefore needs to put in the work. Interesting that on a team that featured Frank Thomas, they use Albert Belle (who was then a Sox) as the example. However, the Big Hurt was used as an example as the White Sox that worked hardest on his swing, particularly doing tee work and soft toss. Belle may have been more of a "natural." Not that any of this last part pertains to the argument at hand, I thought it was funny.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
GM, I agree with everything you said there. I don't like to use the phrase "level swing" however, since most youth coaches and players think it means "level to the ground".


I agree with you there. Many think of a level swing as being level to the ground. For me personally it means to keep the bat path level with the plane of rotation. Keeping the weight back allows that plane to traject upwards at contact.
getagoodpitchtohitgetagoodpitchtohit100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
GM, I agree with everything you said there. I don't like to use the phrase "level swing" however, since most youth coaches and players think it means "level to the ground".


I agree with you there. Many think of a level swing as being level to the ground. For me personally it means to keep the bat path level with the plane of rotation. Keeping the weight back allows that plane to traject upwards at contact.


Agree with both of you!
B BlueRidgeBandit10+ posts
Relationships between the athletes lower half and the trajectry of the swing is really what is at issue here, if you take a young athlete or weak player they will have a tendency to drop the bat head upon launch, there for leading to upwards travel at contact. Now if you have a mature hitter and they still have those habits one can adjust the path of the swing to a more down ward approach and actually get the swing to come thru on a plane that makes contact on the downwrd path of the swing thus producing a ball with the desired backspin.
The real problem is when you instruct a hitter to swing down tru the ball and they don't stay down with their legs, striding foward and coming to the frontside and swinging down will only drive the ball into the ground, but if the hitter will stay back and sit down on the back leg then the swing will actually plane out to the pitch if done right.
The actual result desired will determined the approach taken, a linedrive hitter will try to stay over the ball, where as a home run hitter will try to get loft in their swing, either way your approach will determine your result, I have seen many a hitter misws hit a linedrive approach and hit a HR due to the backspin and how hard they struck the ball, and have also seen many a hitter swing out of their shoes trying to jack the ball over the fence to hit a bleeder to the infield.
If I'm not mistaken Ichiro would have a drive down tru the ball swing and he has more hits than anyone in baseball over the last 10 yrs or so, and if you go back in time guys like Mike Schimt, Hank Aaron and Johnny Bench made contact with the ball on the down part of their swing, thus producing the backspin drive thaqt them HOF.
To each his own I say, but I will continue to teach my hitters to hit the top of the ball to stay over it and live with the results when they miss low.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRidgeBandit:
Relationships between the athletes lower half and the trajectry of the swing is really what is at issue here, if you take a young athlete or weak player they will have a tendency to drop the bat head upon launch, there for leading to upwards travel at contact. Now if you have a mature hitter and they still have those habits one can adjust the path of the swing to a more down ward approach and actually get the swing to come thru on a plane that makes contact on the downwrd path of the swing thus producing a ball with the desired backspin.
The real problem is when you instruct a hitter to swing down tru the ball and they don't stay down with their legs, striding foward and coming to the frontside and swinging down will only drive the ball into the ground, but if the hitter will stay back and sit down on the back leg then the swing will actually plane out to the pitch if done right.
The actual result desired will determined the approach taken, a linedrive hitter will try to stay over the ball, where as a home run hitter will try to get loft in their swing, either way your approach will determine your result, I have seen many a hitter misws hit a linedrive approach and hit a HR due to the backspin and how hard they struck the ball, and have also seen many a hitter swing out of their shoes trying to jack the ball over the fence to hit a bleeder to the infield.
If I'm not mistaken Ichiro would have a drive down tru the ball swing and he has more hits than anyone in baseball over the last 10 yrs or so, and if you go back in time guys like Mike Schimt, Hank Aaron and Johnny Bench made contact with the ball on the down part of their swing, thus producing the backspin drive thaqt them HOF.
To each his own I say, but I will continue to teach my hitters to hit the top of the ball to stay over it and live with the results when they miss low.


I disagree. I don't agree that the approach to teaching batters how to hit is with teaching them to swing downwards on a ball trying to create backspin. I believe the approach needs to be teaching kids to hit the ball "square". Almost every professional slugger in the major leagues hits the ball both square and on the upwards part of the bat path. Significantly, the best batters in the league tend to hit more balls into the air rather than on the ground like Ichiro. Ichiro has a great average due in large part to his running ability and batting from the right side and thus closer to first base. You will note that they don't use him in the position to drive in runs- he is not a pure hitter like Pujols or Chipper Jones. He is just fast and is able to beat out a lot of balls that would get most batters out. He is however a great offensive power for his ability to get on base. People do not look at Ichiro for his hitting mechanics, they look at Pujols. Why? Because Pujols actually puts a charge behind balls by swinging and hitting the ball squarely out in front with the upwards part of his swing.

You go to hitting camps and they don't speak of Ichiro's mechanics, no, they speak of Pujols mechanics.
B BlueRidgeBandit10+ posts
Think of it like hitting a golf ball, if that ball is on a tee you can get away with an upswing at contact,and still hit the ball some what good, but now lets put the ball on the ground and try to hit with the same swing, chanches are you will hit the ball on top back upper quadrant and send it down the fairway skipping along, what they call skulling it I think.

Now lets take an approach to the same ball on the ground with a drive down tru swing and see what happens,the ball should jump off the club with backspin and take off airborne.

You can teach anything you like but for my money I will preach batspeed and backspin and live with those results anyday. I will say that hitting a golf ball and hitting a pitched baseball are two different things but the principle is the same and to take it one step further you need to watch the "Balls" episode of Sports Science and relate the golf swing to the Baseball swing from a Kinect approach with the energy of the swing comming from the ground up, That would be my #1 Myth about the Baseball swing,that we don't focus on the kinectic chain reaction of energy tru the body starting from the ground up, but thats another point all togther.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
I have never been to a hitting camp and have professional hitters teaching kids to swing down through a ball or to swing down on it to create backspin. The general consensus amongst the professional batters who have been at the camps I have been to teach about staying back, exploding on the hips, and driving the bat through the zone and through the ball squarely. They teach over and over again about teaching kids to hit balls hard and to swing the bat through the zone. They teach hitting the hard line drives. They teach situational hitting. But to this point i have never had a professional hitter teach my son to swing down through a ball or to hit it so that it has backspin.

I don't care what anyone says about this or that batter who swings down on a ball, Pujols is by far the tried and true purest hitter in the world! You go to hitting camps and you hear his name over any other name more frequently. He's doing something very right and has proven over a decade the importance of squaring a ball and driving the bat through it on that upwards part of the swing.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
So how would you teach a quick little lefty to swing, especially one that unlike Ichiro doesn't have surprising power for his size?

I've got no problem with squareing it up but I'd rather have that hitter's misses on the ground than in the air.


5/6 defenders in the IF, and only 3 in the OF in an area 3x as big. I'm hitting it to the OF grass.
Last edited by SultanofSwat
B BlueRidgeBandit10+ posts
I guess the term down tru the ball is relative to the person using it, my use means to strike the ball on the downward arc of the swing just like the Harper clip as well as the Bonds and Pujols clips they all are making contact with the ball at the lowest point in the arch of their swing,my point being that you are better off making contact on the downward to upward transition than to make contact on just the upward side of the swing.

Every hitter will have their own strenghs and weakness' each one is different in their own way, you can't teach everyone the same nor expect that they all learn the same, if I have a hitter that is consistantly missing under the ball I will tell them to try and hit the top of the ball and thus work on getting the loop out of the swing, going from A to C to make contact. I don't know what else to call it other than getting over the ball and hitting it on the downward plane of the swing. If thats not the objective then why don't we all start with our hands belt high and just swing up on plane with pitch from there?
standballdadstandballdad5,000+ posts
I have to disagree with "Gingerbread Man",

"Ichiro has a great average due in large part to his running ability and batting from the right side and thus closer to first base. You will note that they don't use him in the position to drive in runs- he is not a pure hitter like Pujols or Chipper Jones."
"You go to hitting camps and they don't speak of Ichiro's mechanics, no, they speak of Pujols mechanics."

I disagree, Ichiro is one of the purest hitters I have seen, he does not have a text book swing, but that doesn't mean he is not a pure hitter. His approach is to drive the ball on the ground because of his speed, being a lefty etc.... I have watched him taking batting practice and he can drive the ball out of the park with the best of them if he chose to, but that is not his approach. He is not a big guy but somehow can generate a lot of power if need be. His role is to get on base, not hit home runs.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRidgeBandit:
the Bonds and Pujols clips they all are making contact with the ball at the lowest point in the arch of their swing


Yet nobody has posted a single image or video of this mythical swing in a game. Please post one if you have it.

The lowest point of a MLB hitters' swing path is over a foot before contact, and the swing is on an upward path at contact.

Notice the dot at the hip.
Last edited by SultanofSwat
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
standball,

Everything you said is true about Ichiro. His approach will take him to the hall of fame.

That said, he averages close to 50 hits a year that do not leave the infield! He is one of the very few hitters that actually benefits from hitting a high percentage of ground balls. Pitchers who get lots of ground balls are in big demand. Hitters who hit lots of ground balls are not in big demand.

Somehow this contact on the way down thing got popular a few years back. We see lots of kids and when we see a good player that has been taught this we cringe. Understand there are things coaches say like "stay on top". But these days there aren't many "good" coaches that want their hitters making contact on the way down.

Nearly all pitches are moving downward to some extent. Why would someone want the bat to also be going downward. This would take exactness and even if it created back spin the actual contact would be weaker. Level to the ground would be better than down.

To drive a nail the hammer strike needs to hit the nail squarely at the angle the nail is at. I think there's too much emphasis placed on creating back spin. Back spin is a good thing, but trying to force it by swinging down through the ball requires perfection and is not good IMO.
Y Yardbird100+ posts
Standballman,

You have this right on. Ichiro can drive the ball if he wants to by changing his swing to the “classic power swing” at will. He was challenged by the press last year at home to do so in batting practice so he obliged them and took 20 power swing and promtly lost 12 of them in the outfield stands shutting them all up.
His current approach puts the ball on the ground because of the upwards trajectory of the barrel causeing top spin predominantly.

Pgstaff,

quote:
“Somehow this contact on the way down thing got popular a few years back”

Actually this is as old as the hills and twice as dusty, the effects of round on round objects has been known and taught for as long as I can remember and none of my clients for 35 years have had any problems with this Cue. Contact with barrel path heading down can not really happen and it is only the instructors that do not get this that there is a problem. The opposite problem of contact on the way up is much more of a problem when trying to get lift out of a line drive. There is 100’s of times more overly upper cutters with problems than the very few overly downers.
quote:
“We see lots of kids and when we see a good player that has been taught this we cringe.”

You must have double cringed when you first saw “the LaBron of baseball”.
When I see an uppercut swing on these batters I don’t cringe anymore I just shake my head now and thank the instuctors for their swing perseptions.
quote:
“Understand there are things coaches say like "stay on top". But these days there aren't many "good" coaches that want their hitters making contact on the way down.”

While this is true you can not attain slight vectoral difference to create back spin predominance unless you perform a straighter path to the ball.
quote:
”Nearly all pitches are moving downward to some extent.”

All overhead pitchers balls head down, no acceptions here, they all have different downwards degrees with high velocity 12/6 fastballs being the least at about a 3 degree angle down.
quote:
“Why would someone want the bat to also be going downward”

To over emphasis the teach to attain just slight barrel to ball vectoral differand where the barrel exit’s just below the ball exit causing bottom spin exit on the ball causing lift and carry.
quote:
“ This would take exactness and even if it created back spin the actual contact would be weaker”

The contact will be stronger in that it is traveling more with gravity and you gain forearm /wrist contractions to maintain barrel rotational ineria. Much more powerful and all approaches strive for this same exactness.
quote:
“Level to the ground would be better than down”


These are only general explanational cues and people need to quit over exagerating their importance being that none of them even come with a detailed explanation as to what they mean when someone disagrees with them or for them.
Level to the ground will give contact this vectoral difference that is desireable but may be to much vectoral difference if actually performed that does not happen even with a downwards attempt.
quote:
”To drive a nail the hammer strike needs to hit the nail squarely at the angle the nail is at.”

This would create a knuckleball exit with the ball, can you immagine trying to catch a knuckleball coming at you at 120 MPH if you were an infielder? This would be preferable if it could be done. There is most always vectoral difference, I believe the backspin producing one is preferable.
quote:
I think there's too much emphasis placed on creating back spin

I start with this scenario, teaching from exit back to stance with all my clients so they understand this first. Then they have a higher incidence of producing back spin instead of the ball dying top spin. It is much more difficult to produce backspin hence forth the over exageration towards it!
quote:
“Back spin is a good thing, but trying to force it by swinging down through the ball requires perfection and is not good IMO.”

All approaches create this try at perfection, why settle for top spin predominance by telling batters it is OK to produce top spin with their natural uppercuts at contact?
Last edited by Yardbird
S showme100+ posts
quote:
not swinging down.



it's becoause they don't, any kid with tivo knows.

If you left handed run like a deer and can get to first under 3.6 your a candidate for ground balls.

If you run like with a parachute ground balls are silly.

9% upward swing at contact about the average for a rope. Shoulders tilt, as much or more as any downward swinging cue...in the launch of the swing.

torque with the hands cause the lever *bathead] to initially go down.

A much more accurate cue would be tilting of the shoulders...vrs. swinging down., and that's just painful for most.
Last edited by showme
WalawalaWalawala100+ posts
It just baffels me that down can mean up to some and just because they've taught swing down for half a century they're right and thats that.

Look at game swings of Bryce Harper at pitches in the strike zone. He doesn't swing down. Far from it. I dont think its fair for the swing down people to claim the LeBron of baseball is in their camp.

Last edited by Walawala
BackstopDad32BackstopDad325,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

5/6 defenders in the IF, and only 3 in the OF in an area 3x as big. I'm hitting it to the OF grass.


To this point. Watching Rangers game right after the Lee/Smoak trade and Josh Lewin asks Tom Grieve (analyst and former GM for Rangers) about Smoak who had really struggled in Big Leagues to date what he thought about Smoak. Grieve said, "you don't have a line drive and flyball ratio like his and not be a succesful hitter in the major leagues"

I especially loved it because this is the one thing my son's instructor has been emphasizing to him from day one. Unless you are a left handed burner you better hit the ball in the air. Balls on the ground turn into outs for most hitters.
IF illini fan10+ posts
Down to the ball is an idea. The barrell doesn't actually work that way. This idea helps kids, and hitters of all ages to think about being short to contact.

I question whether some guys are teaching with cues on what the hands do, or what the barrel does. They are different. Hands have to work downhill to get the barrell in the zone. Hands have to create extension after palm up palm down contact, which works the barrell through the zone, and then hands finish out of the zone which creates that "uppercut look" that you see with the barrel.

Esposito, yes, it is easy to teach, which helps most hitters understand a correct path and feel that path, again and again. As long as you are not "only" teaching "swing down ON the ball", but you also talk about proper plane, extension, and finish, then it all works for many hitters. I think many of us are arguing over what terminology makes a hitters hands work properly through the swing plane, versus what video shows us that the barrel actually does. Of course, game swings in slow motion video look like an uppercut at and beyond contact. These guys get great extension and finish high which helps them maintain balance.

When you control what you teach with a kids hands and lower half, they tend to control the barrel more consistently. When you start teaching hitters what the barrel should do, I think they lose connection with what the hands have to do to get the barrel there. Teaching a slight uppercut with the barrel, because that is what video shows us, leads me to believe that my hitters would immediately get long and start rolling over balls.
N Nick_Esposito10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
Down to the ball is an idea. The barrell doesn't actually work that way. This idea helps kids, and hitters of all ages to think about being short to contact.

I question whether some guys are teaching with cues on what the hands do, or what the barrel does. They are different. Hands have to work downhill to get the barrell in the zone. Hands have to create extension after palm up palm down contact, which works the barrell through the zone, and then hands finish out of the zone which creates that "uppercut look" that you see with the barrel.

Esposito, yes, it is easy to teach, which helps most hitters understand a correct path and feel that path, again and again. As long as you are not "only" teaching "swing down ON the ball", but you also talk about proper plane, extension, and finish, then it all works for many hitters. I think many of us are arguing over what terminology makes a hitters hands work properly through the swing plane, versus what video shows us that the barrel actually does. Of course, game swings in slow motion video look like an uppercut at and beyond contact. These guys get great extension and finish high which helps them maintain balance.

When you control what you teach with a kids hands and lower half, they tend to control the barrel more consistently. When you start teaching hitters what the barrel should do, I think they lose connection with what the hands have to do to get the barrel there. Teaching a slight uppercut with the barrel, because that is what video shows us, leads me to believe that my hitters would immediately get long and start rolling over balls.


I dont think there is a "heavy" uppercut involved, I do believe it is the path of the hands which creates the look. I like to call it the lag of the swing, and the hitters box. No matter what level you are at, it can be taught to have a lag of the barrel which is cause by the path of the hands. I think the swing down on the ball does more of the rollover approach as when you extend, most people teach to extend the barrel out, and that is where the "power V" is but in reality, the power V is on extension after the swing right around shoulder height.

The first picture is an example of what I mean where power v is taught at the wrong point and swinging down on the ball is taught and where the rollover will take place.

The second image is Willie Mays performing where a proper power V takes place after contact.

And the last few images are major leaguers and a youth player showing the hitters box where barrel lag is caused by the hands.







Last edited by Nick_Esposito
T tfox100+ posts
In the Epstein approach to teaching,you don't even use the hands to get the bat in the zone.It is strictly a rotation of the bat and shoulders.(as shown in the above stills I posted)Once you get the bat in line with the zone,then the lag and extension become the point of focus.There is definitely no thought or mention of anything remotely close to swinging down.
Last edited by tfox
IF illini fan10+ posts
agreed, power v isn't at contact. back elbow is almost connected to the rib cage at contact. the v happens in extension. I just find it easier to teach what a hitters hands should do to correct the barrel versus teaching what the barrel should do in order to get the hands to that position. i think a hitter has more control in adjustment with his hands than he does in the barrel of the bat.
IF illini fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
In the Epstein approach to teaching,you don't even use the hands to get the bat in the zone.It is strictly a rotation of the bat and shoulders.(as shown in the above stills I posted)Once you get the bat in line with the zone,then the lag and extension become the point of focus.There is definitely no thought or mention of anything remotely close to swinging down.


Good luck hitting the ball on the outer half or a good breaking ball. I don't mean to bunch everything you said into that statement, but you won't ever convince me that the hands play that small of a role in most good swings. lower half, hips, and hands..... maybe i don't know epsteins hitting theories well enough to comment, but I know that we are "probably" again, again, and again, arguing over terminology. haha
T tfox100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
In the Epstein approach to teaching,you don't even use the hands to get the bat in the zone.It is strictly a rotation of the bat and shoulders.(as shown in the above stills I posted)Once you get the bat in line with the zone,then the lag and extension become the point of focus.There is definitely no thought or mention of anything remotely close to swinging down.


Good luck hitting the ball on the outer half or a good breaking ball. I don't mean to bunch everything you said into that statement, but you won't ever convince me that the hands play that small of a role in most good swings. lower half, hips, and hands..... maybe i don't know epsteins hitting theories well enough to comment, but I know that we are "probably" again, again, and again, arguing over terminology. haha


I am NOT saying hands don't play a huge role,they just aren't "swinging" the bat into the zone.
IF illini fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Ripken teaches Power V at contact. There are a few others, but most MLB hitters are slotted at contact.




haha. this just tells you how stupid our arguing is and how much i am correct about the terminology deal. This swing looks like an uppercut, right? You can find a pic or video of anything you want to find. haha. looks like those hands and back shoulder are working down through the ball to me. I don't like the power v out front at contact, but come on, he is hitting off a tee. he didn't really hit like this.
IF illini fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
In the Epstein approach to teaching,you don't even use the hands to get the bat in the zone.It is strictly a rotation of the bat and shoulders.(as shown in the above stills I posted)Once you get the bat in line with the zone,then the lag and extension become the point of focus.There is definitely no thought or mention of anything remotely close to swinging down.


Good luck hitting the ball on the outer half or a good breaking ball. I don't mean to bunch everything you said into that statement, but you won't ever convince me that the hands play that small of a role in most good swings. lower half, hips, and hands..... maybe i don't know epsteins hitting theories well enough to comment, but I know that we are "probably" again, again, and again, arguing over terminology. haha


I am NOT saying hands don't play a huge role,they just aren't "swinging" the bat into the zone.


Ok, then we are way off in terminology, once again. If the top hand doesn't work through the zone, or for others, the bottom hand doesn't pull the barrel through the zone, and help keep the barrel in the zone for as long as possible, then how does the barrel get swung through the zone and stay there? the hands create contact and extension through the zone. If not, then we would just hold the bat out level behind us and rotate to hit. it is a combination and the hands do help "swing" the bat through the zone
IF illini fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Nick_Esposito:
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Ripken teaches Power V at contact youtube . There are a few others, but most MLB hitters are slotted at contact.




heres ripken when playing, doesn't look to me he actually had V at contact:



perfect. like i said, you can find a pic or video of anything. bottom line, he is short to the ball here and not "power v'd" at contact. good shots.
N Nick_Esposito10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
agreed, power v isn't at contact. back elbow is almost connected to the rib cage at contact. the v happens in extension. I just find it easier to teach what a hitters hands should do to correct the barrel versus teaching what the barrel should do in order to get the hands to that position. i think a hitter has more control in adjustment with his hands than he does in the barrel of the bat.


Back elbow is connected to the ribs, but another thing to point out is that elbow is lined up with their back knee, that ensures proper balance.

I agree with you with the hitters hands being the issue to teach not the barrel. The barrel follows the hands, and thats where the hitters box and bat lag comes into play.
T tfox100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Ripken teaches Power V at contact. There are a few others, but most MLB hitters are slotted at contact.




haha. this just tells you how stupid our arguing is and how much i am correct about the terminology deal. This swing looks like an uppercut, right? You can find a pic or video of anything you want to find. haha. looks like those hands and back shoulder are working down through the ball to me. I don't like the power v out front at contact, but come on, he is hitting off a tee. he didn't really hit like this he didn't really hit like this.



Nope,sure didn't.Doesn't look like he is hitting the top half and creating backspin either.



Looks like you beat me to it. Big Grin
Last edited by tfox
IF illini fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Ripken teaches Power V at contact. There are a few others, but most MLB hitters are slotted at contact.




haha. this just tells you how stupid our arguing is and how much i am correct about the terminology deal. This swing looks like an uppercut, right? You can find a pic or video of anything you want to find. haha. looks like those hands and back shoulder are working down through the ball to me. I don't like the power v out front at contact, but come on, he is hitting off a tee. he didn't really hit like this he didn't really hit like this.



Nope,sure didn't.Doesn't look like he is hitting the top half and creating backspin either.



Nope, he found the bottom of it and drove it. bet it was backspun though because of how he stayed through it. If it wasn't backspun, what was it? knuckled? top spun? That barrel is still working through the ball, hence the right elbow still being connected. he spun that ball.
IF illini fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Ripken teaches Power V at contact. There are a few others, but most MLB hitters are slotted at contact.




haha. this just tells you how stupid our arguing is and how much i am correct about the terminology deal. This swing looks like an uppercut, right? You can find a pic or video of anything you want to find. haha. looks like those hands and back shoulder are working down through the ball to me. I don't like the power v out front at contact, but come on, he is hitting off a tee. he didn't really hit like this he didn't really hit like this.



Nope,sure didn't.Doesn't look like he is hitting the top half and creating backspin either.



Nope, he found the bottom of it and drove it. bet it was backspun though because of how he stayed through it. If it wasn't backspun, what was it? knuckled? top spun? That barrel is still working through the ball, hence the right elbow still being connected. he spun that ball.


that is the myth... i am not saying that you have to hit the top half to backspin the ball... but instead, you have to work down through it somehow and find that bottom half.
T tfox100+ posts
Epstein teaches that at contact,you should be able to draw a straight line from the bottom hand elbow to the end of the bat and the top hand elbow is connected to the hip.To accomplish this,you start with a box with the arms and the bat is actually placed on the side of the shoulder and you rotate,not swing to get the bat to the zone.This is for teaching purposes and there is much more to it and the hands do get very much involved but this is the basic jist of it.The above pics are all examples of this in action.
IF illini fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
AND imo,that is confusing at best to young hitters.Hell,look at how adults argue over it.I watch many a young hitter struggling with these cues that would be much better hitters if their dads or coaches would quit confusing them with bad cues.


No more confusing than what I hear you talk of in my opinion. It works for my guys, whether they are playing high school or pro ball.
IF illini fan10+ posts
in my opinion, yes. and if the stills went further, you would see more hand action downhill to contact, then extension with hands through the ball, and then a high finish with those hands. bottom hand is pulling the bat through, top hand is pushing it down and through. back elbow is connected until contact. palm up and palm down with hands at and through contact, and top hand rolls into follow through after extension.
T tfox100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
in my opinion, yes. and if the stills went further, you would see more hand action downhill to contact, then extension with hands through the ball, and then a high finish with those hands. bottom hand is pulling the bat through, top hand is pushing it down and through. back elbow is connected until contact. palm up and palm down with hands at and through contact, and top hand rolls into follow through after extension.



His hands NEVER leave his number in any of these pics so how can that be swing down.He is starting an up path with his hands at the last clip to finish high.(also a teaching of Epstein)

Notice how the hands,bat and shoulder seem to be working together.
Last edited by tfox
IF illini fan10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
in my opinion, yes. and if the stills went further, you would see more hand action downhill to contact, then extension with hands through the ball, and then a high finish with those hands. bottom hand is pulling the bat through, top hand is pushing it down and through. back elbow is connected until contact. palm up and palm down with hands at and through contact, and top hand rolls into follow through after extension.



His hands NEVER leave his number in any of these pics so how can that be swing down.He is starting an up path with his hands at the last clip to finish high.(also a teaching of Epstein)

Notice how the hands,bat and shoulder seem to be working together.


first, lets be honest, his hands are above the number on his jersey until frame 7. They start low in 1 because of load, get higher to stride, then work downhill. but also, look where the pitch is coming in during frame 7. like i have said, it seems, 20 times tonight, you can find a pic of anything. that pitch is a high pitch, top of zone at best, so he isn't going to be working downhill with his hands on an "extreme" level
T tfox100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
quote:
Originally posted by illini fan:
in my opinion, yes. and if the stills went further, you would see more hand action downhill to contact, then extension with hands through the ball, and then a high finish with those hands. bottom hand is pulling the bat through, top hand is pushing it down and through. back elbow is connected until contact. palm up and palm down with hands at and through contact, and top hand rolls into follow through after extension.



His hands NEVER leave his number in any of these pics so how can that be swing down.He is starting an up path with his hands at the last clip to finish high.(also a teaching of Epstein)

Notice how the hands,bat and shoulder seem to be working together.


first, lets be honest, his hands are above the number on his jersey until frame 7. They start low in 1 because of load, get higher to stride, then work downhill. but also, look where the pitch is coming in during frame 7. like i have said, it seems, 20 times tonight, you can find a pic of anything. that pitch is a high pitch, top of zone at best, so he isn't going to be working downhill with his hands on an "extreme" level


Toe plant isn't until frame 5,and everything before that is just timing and loading.Then the swing starts in frame 5 and the hands don't change more than 2" in either direction and if this was continued,imo,you would see the hands higher,not lower.
S showme100+ posts
Better explanation...

Wrist Action or Torque

Most coaches think the wrist play an important role in producing power and quickness for the baseball swing. But the muscle groups that flex and un-flex (abduct and addult) the wrist are a comparably small muscle group and could have only a limited impact on the generation of bat speed. Therefore, I would like to offer a different observation I drew from my research of what appears to be the "snapping of the wrist."

For a ball to be hit over 400 feet, the bat head must be accelerated to a speed in excess of 70 MPH in less than 5/30 of a second. About half that speed is developed in the last 1/30 of a second. The large amount of inertia that must be overcome to accelerate the bat head 35 MPH or more in 1/30 of a second requires far more energy than the muscles in the hands, wrists and arms can produce. That kind of energy (about 3 torque HP) must come from the large muscle groups in the legs, back and shoulders.

The question then becomes; how is the energy transferred from the large muscle groups of the body up and on out to the bat head? I'm not going to cover the entire sequence at this time (omitting the initiation mechanics of the swing), but confine my remarks to the mechanics that appear to be wrist action or snapping of the wrist just prior to contact.

To explain the mechanics of how the large muscles are involved in this transfer, I am going to describe the swing mechanics of a Ken Griffey Jr., or hitters of his caliber, just prior to making contact. --- The large muscles in his legs and back have rotated his hips and shoulders to a point where the belly button and chest are now facing the pitcher. His lead shoulder is now starting to rotate back in the direction of the catcher. This means that the lead arm, and thus the bottom hand, are now being pulling back toward the catcher as the bat approaches contact. --- At the same time the rear shoulder (and top hand) are rotating around toward the pitcher.

This "pulling back" of the bottom hand as the top hand is being "driven forward", generates a tremendous amount of TORQUE on the bat. Torque is the result of forces being applied to the bat from opposing directions that causes an object (the bat) to rotate about a point between the two hands.

So, in the swing of a great hitter, what appears to be wrist action is actually the "push - pull" action of the hands generating a large amount of torque. This torque was developed from the large muscle groups and causes the bat head to be greatly accelerated. --- If the batter does not initiate the swing with torque and rotational forces, he will not be able to obtain the position of power required to apply maximum torque to the bat before contact. This is especially true for pitches on the outside part of the plate.

http://batspeed.com/research08.html
Last edited by showme
T tfox100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by John Carter Jr.:
I'm Confused. Are you saying C. Lau teaches to swing down on the ball? If so, then I can tell you that he absolutely does not.
quote:
Originally posted by cball:
Yardbird

with the exception of C. Lau which top hitting guy teaches to swing down?


(this thread should be in the hitting forum)



I believe that Lau teachings have changed over the years.

I am sure someone with first hand knowledge can expound on this subject.


I have heard that Ted Williams did not like what the original Lau teachings were.
S showme100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tfox:
quote:
Originally posted by John Carter Jr.:
I'm Confused. Are you saying C. Lau teaches to swing down on the ball? If so, then I can tell you that he absolutely does not.
quote:
Originally posted by cball:
Yardbird

with the exception of C. Lau which top hitting guy teaches to swing down?


(this thread should be in the hitting forum)



I believe that Lau teachings have changed over the years.

I am sure someone with first hand knowledge can expound on this subject.


I have heard that Ted Williams did not like what the original Lau teachings were.


you are correct, Ted was very vocal against Lau.

the swing down thing was not immaculate conception.

Ted Williams responded when asked;
"What do you think of Lau's theory of hitting?" and Ted responded, "It has done more to destroy the art of hitting than anything in the history of baseball."

When asked at another time, what he thought of Lau's book, he responded,
"They ought to burn every copy ever printed."
Last edited by showme

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