the 3-0 pitch

Interesting question.

Seems like you have to have Manny Ramirez type talent to even get an opportunity to have an approach.

I think the approach is that you should be looking in a very resticted zone and for a certain type of pitch - assuming you are given the green light to begin with. Good hitters should know over the years where their ideal pitch is. If they get that perfect pitch or something they can do something with, go ahead and drive the ball.

It's situational. Most coaches redlight the 3-0,but if your next 2 hitters are not so good and you need the RBI's, it will be greenlighted.

Fungo,

Has the pitcher shown wildness in recent innings?
What inning is it and what is the score?
Does the batter have speed?

Is the batter a "contact" hitter - or a "power hitter"?
Are there men on base - and if so - do they have speed?
Is the infield playing in?
Has the umpire been squeezing the strike zone?

Those are a few of the questions I would think about before I decided what to do.

Take.

Be ready to mash your pitch. If its anywhere else take it. If you get your pitch COME OUT OF YOUR SHOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never let a pitcher get away with a fat pitch. At least let him know if he throws one you are going to COME OUT OF YOUR SHOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I beleive in attacking the pitcher. And I dont want to reward anyone for getting behind in the count. I want to punish them for getting behind in the count. JMHO

Easiest way to mis-hit a pitch...come out of your shoes swinging at it.

Just like high schoolers swinging at the first pitch they see from a pitcher that they've never seen in their lifetime. Did a study over 20 games in the Junior Olympics in 2001 and 2002. When swinging at the first pitch against a pitcher that they've never seen (only the first time through the order), batting average was less than .100 both years.

Enough said.

Learn to swing, in control, and you'll be a much better hitter.

Difference in philosophy I guess. I want my guys to always come out of their shoes. Does that mean they are not under controll? No where in my post did I say Be out of controll. No. It means attack the baseball. Dont hope you hit it. Dont wish you could hit it. Dont think you can hit it. Attack it. You only should have one swing but you can have different approaches depending on the situation. A 3-0 count I believe you sit on your pitch and if you get it you should be ready to mash it. I have coached many years. The players that swing at the first pitch that is a fb over the plate have alot of success. The players that swing at a first pitch that is not a strike do not. The quality of the competition that day will have alot to do with the success of your hitters. Good pitchers will not feed a first pitch fb over the heart unless it is a mistake. Thats what you are looking for on that first pitch a fb over the plate. Are you saying you should take a first pitch fb over the plate because kids in the Jr Olympics that swung at a the first pitch do not do well? Does it not depend on the competition and the situation at that moment. Ive seen too many kids take a fb over the heart on 3-0 only to get painted on 3-1 for a 3-2 count. Now what are they saying to themselves in the box? Man I should have mashed that 3-0 pitch. Why not hit your pitch on 3-0 instead of having to possibly hit the pitchers pitch on 3-1 or full count? What are you telling your players when you have them take a pitch on 3-0 when everyone in the ballpark knows that a cream puff is probaly coming? You either have confidence in your hitters or not. And if you dont they will know it by having them take 3-0 pitches. I dont give a take sign. I dont believe in it. Teach kids situations and teach them to be agressive in their zone and then leave them alone to hit. If they dont like the pitch they will learn to take it. I dont think they learn anything when the coach makes those game time decisions for them. To me its no different than telling a pitcher he has to throw a fb on 2-0 or 3-0. Teach them to throw any pitch at anytime and have the confidence to do so. If they never get the opportunity to do it how can they learn to do it? And if your son never gets the opportunity to hit 3-0 counts or 0-0 counts when will he learn to do it? Ill tell you what happens in a game when the other team realizes that your team is not agressive on 0-0 counts. They end up behind in the count all day on fb first pitch for a strike. Then the pitcher deuces them on 0-1 and most times they are in an 0-2 count. Force the pitcher to start hitters out with his #2 pitch and show he can do it for strikes. How do you do this? By mashing every first pitch fb he throws for a strike. Teach kids to make decisions for themselves. They learn this by getting a chance to make those decisions in games. Ive seen a ton of kids take a 3-0 groove pitch and then swing at a pitch out of the zone on 3-1 because they just took a good pitch and then pressed because they let it go. Whats the point anyway? Are you not up there to hit a good pitch? What difference does it make if its the first pitch or the fourth pitch? Just hit the darn ball when they throw it over the plate. And if they dont walk. JMH belief

Normally, all of our players take the 3-0, with a few exceptions. I had three of my summer players who are very good power guys who I gave a season long green light to in this situation. Those three, I told them I'd take it off if I didn't want them greenlight on 3-0, otherwise they were free to swing IF they saw a pitch right in the middle of their happy zone that they could hit really hard. For the most part, they took the 3-0, over 90% of the time when they could have swung. Only a couple times all summer did one of them swing at a 3-0 pitch they should have let go. On the other hand, there were a few "get it in" fastballs that flew a very long way. For the rest of the players, we'd selectively give them the green light, and not very often.

I think in summer ball it can be a good thing to give your best hitters discretion to decide when to do it. I think we have to show the confidence in them that we trust them to play smart and let them learn. Too many coaches are afraid of letting a kid make a mistake, something he can learn from. Summer is a time that these kids should be allowed a little more leeway to expand and learn more about the game without the penalties that so often happen when a kid fails during the school year, IMO.

Coach May,

I want my son to play for you!!!

The problems with many posters is that they start responding before they've READ the post.

I would love to coach against you, Coach May, since your players will be swinging at the first pitch in the 7th inning of a 7th inning game with the team down by one run and the pitcher having thrown 90 pitches.

I'm not talking about pro players. I'm talking about high schoolers.

You don't give "take" signs since you don't believe in it? Gees...Definitely a "different" philosophy in coaching a high school baseball team.

Enjoy the rest of the summer and have a great spring.

For us a few things ebter into the picture witha 3-0 count

01-- game situation
02-- what the pitchder is doing--does he have control?
03-- who is the batter we have at the plate

By the way Been we do not have a take sign either except in certain situations. We trust our players at the plate

My son hit three HR's last year on 3-0 counts. He hit .524 on the year with 10hr's 16dbls 44rbi's in 29 games. As a soph in hs. He was all state first team and player of the year in his conference. One of the best 3-A conferences in the state. We have won the conf championship 6 times in the last 10 years and finished 2nd the other four years. Our team ba .338 averaged over the last 10 years. Come play us. We would love to play a team that takes 0-0. We love to start 0-1 on your batters. And we would love to hit against a pitcher that starts us out with a fb over the plate because he expects us to take on 0-0.

We coach our players in practice and in the off season and let them play the games. We expect them to make good decisions because we have allowed them to make decisions and learn. I am having a great summer and I expect to have a great fall. I expect our guys to keep hammering fb's over the plate on 0-0 counts. And I expect our guys to continue to hammer 3-0 fb's over the plate.

I love to see the look on the opposing pitchers face everytime our leadoff hitter cranks the first pitch of the game. He thought he was going to work ahead today with a fb over the plate. Better rethink that today son. And I really love it when they think we are going to sit there and let a 3-0 cream puff go past for a strike and we crank it. Even if we foul it off. We send a message. If you throw it over the plate we are going to hit it. You can coach anyway you want thats up to you. I will continue to coach in an aggressive manner that shows our kids that I have confidence in their ability. Even if they dont have alot of ability I will make them believe they do. Its ok to disagree its been a little boring around here lately anyway.

By the way your scenario about down by 1 run in the 7th and the pitcher having thrown 90 pitches. You can choose to try to walk and you can choose to say he tired he has thrown 90 pitches see if he can throw some strikes. I choose to say his controll will not be as good. He will make a mistake and throw a meat pitch. Be ready to rake it. Your philosophy is passive and mine is agressive. I choose to be aggressive. It doesnt mean you swing at a ball. It means you expect a good pitch and when you get it you hit it. Going up there expecting not to get a good pitch leaves you in a posistion to not be ready to hit a good pitch. Again just a difference in approach. Ours works for us. We will continue to be ready to rake and leave the guys that are not on the bench.

I would say take the 3-0 except in so-cal where unless it bounces or goes over the catchers head the umpire will call an automatic strike

If there is a runner on first and less than two outs, I will likely give the take sign unless I have a really good line drive hitter. The one thing I do not want is a double play. If I have no outs or even one out, I will take because I want this guy on base and not "swinging from his shoes". If I have two outs and runners in scoring position, I will almost always NOT give the take sign with the hitter knowing in advance that he is not to swing unless it is "his pitch" or in "his zone" and I have talked with each hiiter before we ever started game play as to what that pitch is for him.

In other words, I agree with gogolf18, itsinthe game, 06catcherdad, & TRhit, at leawst in overall philosophy: it is situational. I just gave some of my specific situations where I don't let them swing. And one situation where I do let them swing under certain conditions. But I probably give 10X more take signs on 3-0 than no take signs [or what loks like a take sign but is not.] Anyone else willing to "lay some specifics down"?

TW344

TW,

I agree with Coach May on the 0-0 count. Sometimes - the only fastball you will see may be that first pitch - so if it is dead red - you better be ready to smack it.

On the 3-0 count I dont agree with Coach May.
Particularly when you are playing wood bat baseball. It is also very frustrating to see a player in that situation - with the game potentially on the line - swing at a 3-0 pitch that is outside of the strike zone.

The situation is similar in some ways to giving a player the sign to sac bunt in tight games. It may not be an aggressive play - but it might be what your team needs at the time. IMO.

I like it when we can disagree and share thoughts on why. That is when this site is the most fun for me. I respect the fact that other people may or may not agree with me. It takes hitters that are disciplined to hit effectively with 0-0 counts and 3-0 counts. Disciplined in the fact that they are looking for one pitch in one spot and they are READY to hit it if it is there. And disciplined enough to not swing if it is not. My philosophy is they will never learn to do this if someone else (the coach) makes that decision for them by giving them a take sign.

Coach May,

All true IMO - but - when you have a hitter that is hitting .200 - and hasnt hit a ball hard in three weeks - there are occasions where I would have that player take the 3-0 pitch. IMO.

True! Maybe also time for a new stick in the line up too.

From my experience, I've never liked swinging at the 3-0 pitch because I tend to expect the pitch to be better than it actually is, therefore I might swing at a mediocre pitch because I am expecting a fat pitch. I also always figure that the 3-1 pitch is going to be just as good as the 3-0, so why not take 3-0.

On the other hand, I have seen some hitters destroy the 3-0 pitch because the pitcher usually tends to take a little bit off of it in order to get it over.

I guess it varies to each hitter's comfort level as to whether they should swing at it or not.

lefty

"so why not take 3-0"---because the 3-1 pitch may not be as good

Keep in mind here also it all depends on the hitters you have on your team and your faith in them as a coach

Love that Coach May. But I do agree with Tr that each situation may dictate whats next.

There just can't be a normal or routine when the situation arises.
Who's the hitter, pitcher, defense, runners, inning, outs, score and so-on.

I can't believe there is this much dialogue about this.

TAKE the pitch 3-0 everytime.

?If you settle for nothing now, you will settle for nothing later.?

By taking the grooved 3-0 pitch your settleing for nothing now. And you may end up settleing for nothing later.

Not trying to argue with anyone here. I respect everyones opinion. And everyone has different approaches to the game based on the experiences in the game they have had. My #8 hitter knows that he has the green light on 3-0 in the first inning and he knows that he is looking for a fb in his wheelhouse and nothing else. He also knows that if its the 7th inning and we are down a run and he is 3-0 he still has the green light on a fb down the heart. He is allowed to make that decision. Just the way I coach. We are agressive and we allow our players to play the game. Me personally , I do not like my guys at the plate second guessing themselves based on the fact that they think someone is going to jump their ***. Its amazing how kids make good decisions when they are allowed to do so. And when they know that the coach has faith in them to make decisions. I want them focused on getting in the box, zoning in on hitting and then having some fun. Alot of coaches get ****ed when one of there kids swings at a 3-0 pitch. I get ****ed when they get a 3-0 pitch grooved and they stand there and let it go. Folks to me its hammer time. Even if they get out so what? Its a whole lot more fun to get that pitch and take a rip than stand there and take a cream puff for a strike. Too many times it sets a tone for the rest of the ab and kids end up having a bad ab because of it. And its a downer for the team. Attack the game.

What is comes down to is simple: are you aggressive or passive in your coaching approach?

Do you know and understand your players and their talents?

Generally speaking, I agree with Coach May. I tend to coach pretty aggressively and I believe strongly in putting pressure on the defense.

The only time I put on the take sign is late in the game and we're in a position where we need the batter (and probably someone after him) to score for us to get back in the game.

Otherwise, sit dead red and fire your bat head through the fastball.

In 30 or so games this Summer, I may have given the take sign twice.

As to 0-0 counts, Beenthere has a good point about facing a pitcher for the first time. That's right out of the Ted Williams playbook. The problem with that is guys like Coach May will recognize what your doing and will get ahead of your whole lineup.

To disguise that, we like to have a leadoff hitter who will attack a first pitch fastball. Usually, if he hits the first pitch of the game hard, it will affect the pitcher's confidence a little and he may try to get a little too perfect after that. We can then get away with being more selective the rest of the way through the order.

Mike F

That statement or tag line has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing, in addition to that I think it is rather juvenile that you would even bring it up. If you are not trying to argue with people don't write such condescending remarks.

My opinion still stands, take the pitch.

There was actually a study done regarding this topic using statistics compilied from Stanford's 1998-2001 varsity baseball team. The point was to create a Take or Not to Take Table. I have included the link to this .pdf document that backs up my opinion.

If you do not feel like reading the document the details are below:
* I a player puts the ball in play on a 3-0 count they have a 38% chance of getting on base.
* I a player takes the pitch on a 3-0 count you have a 64% chance of getting on base.

You keep doing what you want to do, but I am going to go with the numbersThe Details - .pdf link

Back in my coaching days I was a very big believer in percentages. At the same time found it important to develop a certain mentality in the players. I don't think there can be any cut and dried answer to a lot of these questions.

IMO – Giving the green light at all times is not playing the percentages
IMO – Giving the take on every 3-0 count is not playing the percentages.

All our hitters had to take 3-0 counts unless we gave them the green light. In the case of a hitter leading off an inning… We would never give the green light. The leadoff hitter in any inning has a job… That job is to get on base… The percentages of getting your job done are greatly in favor of taking the pitch.

There are situations (too many to mention) where the percentages might favor a hitter swinging at 3-0. We even had a sign for “Swing For Sure” where a hitter would swing in his wheel house no matter where the pitch was. Here is an example…

We are one run behind in the last inning with two outs and runner on 3rd.

We have our best hitter who is our best power hitter at the plate with a 3-0 count.

The hitter behind him is nowhere near as good.

We would rather have the first hitter at the plate with a 3-1 count than the next hitter with a 0-0 count.

The hitter at the plate is better, the percentages are far better at 3-1 than 0-0.

Plus the first hitter might hit one out and win the game right there.

And if our hitter was glued in on a BP fastball and he was going to stay in his wheel house… The percentages of him hitting a homerun if the fastball is in his wheel house increases dramatically.

Maybe some can see the logic here and others might not, and of course there is some “gut feeling” involved in this decision. I’m a big believer in “gut feelings”, next to percentages and a players mentality it’s a big part of baseball. Everyone whose ever coached at a high level relies on gut feelings at some point.

By the way, even the Stanford study says this in the bottom table…

Ave Bases obtained if take 3-0 = 73%
Ave Bases if 3-0 is put into play = 53% (the highest of all balls put into play)
Ave bases with 3-1 if take = 58%
Ave bases if 3-1 is put in play = 50% (the second highest of all balls put in play)

Now do you want your BEST hitter on first base by taking the 3-0 count with the tying run on 3B with 2 outs? Or a not as good hitter with the tying run on 3B and 2 outs with a 0-0 count?

Whether you believe in swinging in your wheel house for sure in this situation even if the ball is a foot above the hitters head and going 3-1 or not. Would you automatically have your best hitter take the BP fastball right in his wheel house?

I also have seen a lot of 3-0 count home runs over the years. The key is to keep the swing in the wheel house and don’t chase something that will bail out the pitcher.

Anyway… That’s my opinion FWIW

Rifles...that's a nice study and a pretty good reference. Thanks for posting it.

I don't think anyone is agruing whether there is a better chance for the batter to get to first base if the take sign is on with a 3-0 count. I'll agree with that 100%.

Still, I'll almost never put the sign on. Is it because I'm stupid? It's possible, but there are other reasons as well.

We are talking about high school aged players. In my opinion, there is not a single one of them who has fully developed their skills. If I am not developing their skills, I am doing my players an injustice.

Does taking a fastball right through their wheelhouse help develop their skills? I don't think that's a skill that needs work...my daughter who has never been in a batter's box in her life would be very good at "taking" right now.

And not taking doesn't mean definately swinging at any strike. In 3-0 counts, you only swing at meat balls in your kill zone. You still need to make a good decision and take a strike that is not in your wheelhouse.

Let the batter swing. Help him develop his ability to jump on mistakes. There might be a college coach or pro scout there to see him. Would it be important to have scouts see how smart I am because I gave a take sign? Or would it be better if the player had a chance to drive a fastball to the fence?

Statistically speaking, there are probably many things that can be done to maximize the teams chances to win games. Perhaps it would be smart, statistically speaking, to intentionally walk the opponent's best hitter every time up. He may be batting around .600 and and slugging near 1.100. It may increase our chances of winning the game. But it sends the wrong signal to your players. I want them to compete agressively, not passively.

The bottom line is that, swinging away on 3-0 may or may not be the best way to win games. That's OK because there are more important things to worry about.

Best of luck,

Mike F

Mike F,

You bring up some very good points. My post related to a college team where winning is more important (as in being successful or being replaced)

If we are talking about other levels I can understand and appreciate your thoughts. I wish more people shared your opinion from a scouting stand point.

The intangibles involved with just taking a 3-0 pitch or not is what makes this game great. Who is on base, on deck, in the hole, how many outs, where is the outfield positioned, is the infield in, etc... There is no right or wrong answer to any of these questions only different scenarios and hopefully through experience Coaches and Players are armed with all of the information necessary to make the right decision. But even then the right decision could turn out to be wrong.

Regardless of your stance on this particular scenario the Stanford Case study does offer some great insight. The more I learn about this game, the more I realize I don't know.

The decision is dictated by two things. First, the situation in the game and, more important, the player standing in the batter's box.

Some hitters can sit 3-0, look for a pitch in a specific spot, and nail the thing with consistency. Some get overanxious and try and do too much in a 3-0 situation. Different talents and approaches come with every player.

I get why you say you are doing a disservice by giving a 3-0 take. I think, however, that there might be some players you coach, the less talented hitters, who could help have a better chance of reaching base with a 3-0 take sign than with a green light. Let them see a strike, track it to the glove, and go at it 3-1.

I like it when 3-4-5 guys get the green light at 3-0 because it's their job to drive the baseball. But as I said, every case depends on who is in the box.

A lot to think about!

Is the pitcher still in control of his pitches?

What's the score?

Who is up to the plate and with anyone one.

Not a real student of the game, but this thread isn't black and white. And if you polled 100 coaches, how many would give you scenerios for hitting versus the standard "take a pitch"

JUST

This thread typifies what the game is all about--every coach has his own strategy


Makes for great discussion