The Battery

There is no simple answer here

If the coach is calling the pitches the coach has last say

If the catcher calls the pitches it comes down to trust between the pitcher and the catcher--in most cases the pitcher will defer to the catcher if they have worked together for a long time if not the pitcher will have the final say

We allow our catchers to call the game in conjunction with the pitcher--we leave the final say up to them as a team

How about the Dad who's standing behind the dugout overriding the coach's pitch call?

I would say that it probably depends on the program. For instance at my son's school, the coach calls the pitch. The pitcher never shakes it off. No extra decision making for the boys. Summer ball on the other hand provides a bit more freedom. The catcher calls and he and the pitcher work things out. A lot more communication involved. I like that method I believe it really helps the players mature.

At my sons college the coach called the pitch and location with knowledge of the "hitters book". Over time a pitcher earns the right to override it but you better have good results or that right could be taken away.

At son's school pitchers and catchers worked as a team, pitcher was allowed to shake off, however, if you made a mistake you wanted to head off somewhere else besides the dugout after an inning, after you are no longer considered a freshman.

I agree with most who allow the two to work as a team, it allows for maturity and also helps you to learn to own up to the game.

It doesn't work for everyone, a lot has to do with the catcher and his knowledge as well.

At my older son's HS, the pitching coach called the pitch...if our son shook off and threw something else, he'd get his a$$ chewed.

I always thought that was a bit nutty...why would you want your pitcher to throw a pitch he just flat out doesn't want to throw?

In college...first couple of years, coach called "based on the book," catcher and/or pitcher could change it if it didn't feel right to them. Coach told me exactly what I said above at one time...'why would I want a pitcher to throw something he doesn't want too?'

By senior year, catcher/pitcher called their own game...with the pitching coach injecting his call every once in a while in critical situations...still with the choice to shake off.

I liked that way...not that what I like means a hill of beans...but I liked it.

In pro ball (1 short season), its been all catcher/pitcher.

bbscout (remember him?) used to say on this site often that the catcher/pitcher combination of calling pitches should begin in HS at the very latest.

Pitches are called from the bench mostly, but sometimes catcher. Pitcher is taught that he controls the game and he knows what he's got, so it's his final decision. Never seen the coach upset about shaking off his signs, but they will have conversations in the dugout after an inning about why the coach made his decision and why the pitcher made his. Junior loved it, because it was a teaching process without judgement. He said the coach always listened to his reasoning. Sometimes the coach would agree, sometimes not, but it was never adversarial and always constructive.

At our HS level, son is Sr catcher. He calls and has called all his pitches since some time in his Soph year, when coach called some and he called some (until coach acheived a confidence level with him - they do talk a lot during the game though, so they are both on the same page with pitch calls). There are a couple of younger catchers who take signs from the coach (they will catch at JV levels this year). If the coach calls the pitch, only rarely will the pitcher have the ability to shake the coach off.

Son has worked with several of his pitchers - one in particular - since they were in LL, like say 7 yrs old. They know each other like a book, and I have not seen pitcher shake him off but maybe 5 times. If pitcher shakes him off, he'll let it go once. If the pitch misses and the pitcher attempts to shake him off again, he might call time and go talk to the pitcher about it and get an agreement.

Son gets to know his pitchers very well. A catcher should pride himself on this skill, IMHO.

But, hey, there are many different ways of getting down the road, I am sure.

no11,

Exactly same for my son, since sophomore year...

1.03 ERA 2007 HS season

2.09 ERA 2008 HS season

TBD ERA 2009 HS season, we shall see. So far in first 2 preseason games, 1 ER and 2 ER's respectively.

He is looking forward to calling game at college level too. That is one of the skills the college pitching coach commended son on as they also have catchers call the game.

What I see sometimes is if the pitcher has played with the opposing hitter in summer ball and/or knows them real well, he will call a certain pitch to make sure he gets 'em. Lot of pride on the line in those situations.

The situation will vary based on the catcher, pitcher and coach. You can't just put a pitcher on the mound and a catcher behind the plate and turn them loose. The coach has to teach them what to do and look for and everything else that goes into being a successful battery.

Calling pitches is an art. There isn't a perfect way of getting someone out. It may change from one at bat to the next or one pitch to the next. Sometimes a pitcher / catcher can learn it and sometimes they cannot and need the coach to step in and call pitches.

The best thing is to take young pitchers and catcher and talk / teach them how to get people out in JV games. Then when they get older the coach can turn it over to them. I agree that a pitcher has to feel comfortable in what he throws but if you can get that chemistry down between catcher, pitcher and coach then it doesn't matter who calls what then the pitcher will have faith in what they call.

Best example of this is the 2008 season that just went by. First round of the region and I had a senior catcher (starter since SO year) and senior pitcher (made starts as SO) and they had full control over what was thrown. The pitcher didn't have his best stuff and was struggling with his change. We were facing this little lefty hitter who was just hanging in there on a 3-2 count. The pitcher / catcher had called 3 or 4 straight fastballs that had been fouled off. The tying run was on third (bases loaded) with two outs in the top of the 6th. I got my catcher's attention and called for the change. He looked at me and I gave the change sign again. He called and you could tell the pitcher wasn't real sure but he went with it. Kid struck out swinging on a ball in the dirt. Catcher blocked it and tagged the plate. We end up winning the game.

After the game both asked me why I called the change in that position when he was struggling with it. I said that kid would have swung at anything at that point and the change up would come in straight and should be easy to block if in the dirt than a curve ball would be.

We won that game because we all three had a chemistry going there and while they didn't understand at the time why I wanted something called they went with it. I trusted them for 6 plus innings and they did a great job but on that one pitch I felt like I had to help them. If the kid hadn't swung or got a hit or something bad happened then I can take full blame for it and keep the criticism off those guys.

But all of that was set up because my pitching coach did a great job of teaching my pitcher and catcher of how to call pitches. Plus the fact that I have coached these guys a very long time also means that they trusted me.

from 2709:

quote:

they trusted me

The key is right there. If the coach trusts the catcher/pitcher, fine. If the coach calls the pitches, the players must trust him to execute full out.

The kids of today have never played football when every play wasn't called for them. When I played football the qb called almost every play. The coach would inteject on change of posession or timeouts.

I normally call very few pitches in a game... I don't bash those who choose to call every pitch though.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
I liked that way...not that what I like means a hill of beans...but I liked it.

In pro ball (1 short season), its been all catcher/pitcher.

bbscout (remember him?) used to say on this site often that the catcher/pitcher combination of calling pitches should begin in HS at the very latest.

I like it to, so does son, and bbscout did tell me in a pm that he should consider the program (he was down to two) that allows the catcher and pitcher to manage their own game.

I think, especially for catchers, that this helps tremendously in advancing to the next level, whether it be HS to college or college to pro level. It's all between the catcher and pitcher in pro ball. Sometimes the college coach will call pitches for a catcher new in the program, remember they have an average of 15-16 pitchers to get to know. Lots of work. I think that this is something that pitchers and catchers should discuss during the recruiting process, especially those wanting to play after college.

The best scenerio, IMO is the catcher controlling the pitcher (as he has made it his business to know his pitchers) and the pitcher controlling the tempo by releasing the ball as quickly as he gets it back.
That gives the pitcher a greater advantage early on, until the other team figures it out and slows down the game.

My son only threw off a pitch when that pitch called wasn't working that day, even by the book. He has great respect for the knowledge of the game that most of the catchers he has played with have. But in general he did have the opportunity and if he did make a mistake, he knew not to do it the next time.

It's the catcher's responsibility to call the game. Exceptions needs explanation. The pitcher should ALWAYS have the ability to shake off the catcher if he feels uncomfortable with the selection or he feels ultra confident with another pitch in that particular situation. If the pitcher continually shakes of off the catcher then they need to get back on the same page. The coach's goal should be to "coach" the catcher to call the game at the level he's playing whether it High School or college.. Pitch selection varies in importance during the game and during each at bat. The one who calls the pitch (catcher, pitcher, coach) assumes a greater level of responsibility as that pitch's importance increases. It's not unusual to see a catcher looking to his coach for help in these situations --- as it should be in HS and the beginning college catcher. A well seasoned catcher may even ignore the coach and never look his way.
I thought it was funny when the coach huddles the battery together after a game losing hit and asks --- "Who called that pitch?" More often than not the answer will be --- "You did coach!"
Fungo

PS: Bob Gibson told his catcher Tim McCarver when he walked to the mound to give him instructions. He said something along the lines of: "Get back behind the plate. The only thing you know about pitching is you can't hit it!"

Fungo has described precisely how things would work in a perfect 60'6" world. Everybody has to believe in what he's doing and be able to trust who he's working with. Coach teaches the game, catcher calls the game, and the pitcher deals. Great coaches teach their players how to be good game owners. Catchers own that part of the game, but the responsibility can shift temporarily during the game to adjust for the situation. Pitchers have to believe in that pitch, and coach owns the book. That's where the team trust and respect come into play.

At our hs the coach calls each pitch and as a pitcher whatever grade you are in you are not allowed to shake off.

Funny story last year my son was catching and we were getting beat so the coach brings in a lefty. My son and him have played together since they were 5 years old. The new pitcher's parents were scraid to death he was going to get bombed. As it turns out the kid goes one ,two three out of the inning against their best hitters. After the inning both our coaches are in my son's face yelling at him. Everyone is wondering why. I told my wife he just called the inning knowing his friend strengths and weakness. The next inning my son gave the pitcher every pitch the coach called and it was a very long inning giving up 7 runs.

I had asked the coach once when was he going to allow the catchers to call a game and he told me maybe a little bit their senior year. I thought how are they suppose to learn if not given the chance. My son plays on some very good summer and fall compeitive teams coached by guys who played in the minors. They allow the catchers to call the game unless the coach sees something and will relay it. After each inning those coaches get togther with the catcher and pitcher to quiz them why they called a certain pitch in a certain situation. Seems like more of a teaching process going on versus calling each pitch.

I talked to a pro scout once and he told me that catchers are way behing the curve since hs coaches call all pitches. he told me that the hs catchers are no more than robots and are not learning the game and thinking what to call in certain situations.

It is not just HS coaches, many college coaches call the game. Quite an extensive discussion on rivals.com regarding pitch calling at the college level:

Rivals.com "Calling pitches from the dugout"

My son's pitching coach was a catcher, so I would suspect it might have been easier for him to coordinate pitchers and catchers. Every program is different, some have the players work together, some HC call the game and some pitching coaches do as well. Some coaches are masters of calling the game, and since this is a business based on wins, they can't afford losses.

It definetly takes time and most catchers and pitchers do not come ready to do this when they come to college or the HS coach does not have the time.

The coaches called all the pitches in HS games, but on sons travel teams, the coaches had more time to help them develop. They also knew who would take the initiative to learn or were coachable, that makes it easier.

My son (as a catcher) called some of his games as a junior and senior in HS and some in summer ball. In college as a freshman the coaches called most -- he called some. Many times during a game you could see the coach (pitching coach) defer to the catcher. My son pitched as a sophomore. Back at catching as a junior in college he called almost all the games. In MILB (while I never specifically asked) it looked as if the catchers called all the games. I learned the signs between the catcher and the coach and there is a lot more than pitch selection and location. Things like the rolling fingers of the catchers which means "Give me the sign again" --- I always liked the coach with arms out stretched with palms up with the look on his face "Why'd you call that pitch? Or the overhand wrist "slap" into the air that means --- "you do what you want". If a catcher gets the "why'd you call that" followed by "you do what you want", the catcher can expect a few harsh words when he gets back to the dugout.

I have coached both. In summer I let the kids call every pitch. Did not get mad atany pitch selection. We would talk about it and move on. in high school, we call every pitch of important games. But always talk to pitcher and catcher. I ask the catcher if he thinks there is a better way to pitch a guy.

Summer is about develpment and showcasing. High school is about the team and winning. IN college, if my job is based on wins, I would much rather lose my job because I could not call pitches, than having my kid call pitches and butchering it.

So much of the pitch calling depends on how the batter is reacting in the at-bat. How does he respond to a curve, or the inside fastball. In the upper levels of the game it seems to me that this may not be as big a deal as the batter is more experienced and can correct quicker.

How far is he away from the plate, is he on top of the plate, does he have a loop in his swing, is he way out front on the off speed or does he stay back. Does he flinch on a good curve. Things like this all come into play in a single at bat.

A good catcher will read these things as he is closest to the action and be able to adjust during the individual at bat and as the later at bats are taken by this player. He will also have a great memory to remember who hit what type of pitch well, and what you got the guy to chase earlier.

We like watching Veritek, Posada, Rodriquez and other great catchers study the batter in the box prior to them putting down the sign. I am also guessing that they spend a lot of time now-a-days with video and all the available charts that are made.

The boys HS coach allows the pitcher /catcher to work it out 99% of the time.

The problem. The boy has been pitching to the "L" for the past few years. Moving the ball in and out up and down varying speeds with no two pitches in the same spot at the same speed. The catcher, who was the back up last year, is inclined to call something like this majority of the time. Outside fastball S1, outside fastball S2, curveball. The catcher pretty much perfers to live on the outside of the plate.

This past weekend the boy had repeatedley shook the catcher off during the first inning. Each batter (4) that came to the plate experienced 6-8 shake offs on every other pitch and numerous trips to the mound by the catcher. Clearly a line was being drawn in the sand. After the game I asked the boy what was going on. He said when the catcher gave the sign and he shook him off the catcher would give the same sign again and again.

With the season a couple of weeks away, would the boy be better off trying to convert the catcher or differ all pitch calling to the coach. Or would it be completely out of line for the boy to request the current back up catcher who he has worked with for many years. Who might be a notch below defensively but a stronger hitter.

I would say that if the coach is not already involved (which he should be after the second trip and all those shake-offs) that a three way discussion is in order between pitcher, catcher and coach.

I don't think asking for the other catcher is the way to go. They should be able to work it out at this level.

Younggun's take on pitches called is he would rather he and the catcher work together in a game. He said that when he was in a count with the hitter that called for a duece and the coach called for a FB, or vice versa, it was harder to throw with "conviction" knowing it's not the right pitch.

I saw this last week as he started his first JUCO game. He tossed approx 60 pitches with only 6 offspeed pitches called.

Guess what pitches the hitters were sitting on?