The change-up: how to use it and when...

If you have an effective change and can locate, I'd wait until the 2nd time through the order.

Throw this pitch in any count. I think the key is to keep the hitter off balance and keep them guessing.

Experiement with it and have fun.

Good luck and let us know how it is working.

Lefty...

This is when we have taught our players to use the CU.

Use it immediately after a batter fouls a ball straight back. It is at this point the batter feels his timing is just right for th efastball and will most likely be wanting to see another fastball. Throwing the CU will almost always draw a swing at this point.

Use it for the first pitch. Most batters are looking for timing the fastball and when they see the CU they usually won't swing and wait for the next pitch to be the fastball- even if it is finishes right down the heart of the plate.

GREAT question slotty!

My older son (minor league pitcher) has what many have called a great changeup. He will throw it in any count (including 3-0) to any hitter. But that might not be the "best" answer.

I think its a great pitch in a 1-0, 2-1 and 2-0 count, IF...you have command of it. IMO, the best ones look like strikes (and look like fastballs...read that arm action looks like a fastball) out of the pitcher's hand, but drop down in the zone by the time they reach the batter. My son tells me if he throws it for a strikeout he will 'turn it over' (almost like a screwball) even more to get more downward action. He rarely leaves one 'up' in the hitter's zone.

What level of play? At 54' and up (13U and up) a good change with down on in movement (RHP) is a fantastic pitch in nearly any count. But not in rec leagues against terrible hitters.

A thread on the subject from the pitching forum.

Scroll down and look at Jerry Weinstein's comments.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...1034941/m/2107005695

Gingerbread: I've heard it said that you have to throw the change-up OFF of something, so as a first pitch it's not such a good idea. But your logic makes sense.

My son throws very hard, has a nasty slider and a good split change and used to throw an effective knuckle-change. And, like any punk who gets 1.3 Ks per inning, he's in love with his fastball and slider and neglects his change-up. Can't blame him, but... I'm not sure he thinks hard enough regarding his pitch selection strategy--which is why I'm asking. I plan on picking your collective brains and then later, when talking to my son, passing it off as my own expertise!

Slotty, I can't tell you how many times I have heard my son say - they can't catch up to my fastball, why should I throw the change? I am in a similar boat as you. HS Junior, fastball right now usually 85-88 in game, wicked slider. I keep pushing son to continue to work with change. He is getting better at using it. When he does it is pretty darned good as well.

I would say when a batter starts to catch up to your fastball is a good time to use it. It's also not a bad time to throw it off the plate on a 0-2, 1-2 count, just to throw a batter's timing off. Let him see something slower. It will make the FB all that much more effective. He has thrown good ones right down the pipe with 2 strikes. When the pitch is working, it drops off a table around 8-9 mph below fastball speed.

Bottom line is, I personally believe that even though your kid is a hard thrower, you still need to work on the change. It is a very valuable pitch to have in your arsenal.

For those who have son's throwing hard in HS, and not using a change, go back to justbb's post.
His son has the most wins in the Padre's Milb organization each of the past two years.
Coming out of HS, he was widely considered one the best HS pitchers in the nation, and would like have been a very high round pick had he not chosen Stanford. We have season tix at Stanford just behind home plate. I watched justbb's son his senior year as he won 7-8 straight complete games. His change was unhittable, thrown in any count any time in the game because it looked just like his fastball...until it wasn't.

Having command of the change to be able to throw it in any count, in any situation, is a huge advantage.
Being able to throw it with the same arm speed and slot as the fastball is equally important.
I am coming at this from the perspective of a parent of a pretty good Milb hitter. For him, fastballs up to 100mph could be turned around.
Good curveball was trouble but with adjustments, could be managed, especially after he had seen it a few times.
A 2 pitch pitcher was in big trouble the 2nd time through unless they had Randy Johnson type stuff.
A pitcher with 88-92mph, with a change at 78-80, thrown in any count with command, which looked just like the fastball coming out of the hand, was darn near impossible.
When looked at in the context of college baseball, 85-88 is fine, and get to 90 and you overpower HS hitters. College hitters are NOT HS hitters. They get used to 90 in a hurry.
In the experience of our son, the higher the level of baseball highlights the value of the change up when controlled with command and the ability/confidence to throw it any time.

bballman--your son and mine share the same 17 year-old DNA. Are you sure we're not related??

Bballman and Justbball: you guys obviously know what you are talking about! Thanks!

My son's travel team has an institutional pitch: the knuckle-change-up, which is taught starting with 12u. They forbid any breaking balls before a kid hits 16 years-old. After a year and a half of practicing it, it all of a sudden worked for my son and it was absolutely devastating. He could throw it hard or relatively slow and it would just fall off the table. In fact, 2 years ago in his Babe Ruth league--which forbids curveballs--more than one opposing coach stopped the game to complain that my son was throwing a curveball. My son would proudly walk over to the coach and home-plate ump and show them his grip. End of story.

But now that he is 17 and consistently hitting high 80s with his fastball and throwing a wicked slider, he has abandoned the knuckle-change and added a split-change to his repertoire.(He argues that the knuckle-change and the slider are redundant.) Both change-ups are great. But I think he doesn't throw them enough.

"They can't catch up to my fastball, why should I thow the change?" indeed!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by slotty:

Gingerbread: I've heard it said that you have to throw the change-up OFF of something, so as a first pitch it's not such a good idea. But your logic makes sense.

QUOTE]

I know it sounds strange but we actually picked up on this knowledge from a pro player years ago. We tried it in a game and threw it pretty consistantly to batters for the first strike. Many would swing and miss on the pitch or just watch it in for a strike. For batters they are like- "****, now it's going to screw up my whole approach".

This is a subject worth of a whole book by itself. At the ML level the CU can be the toughest pitch to hit. If kids just throw some every day with a CU grip they can learn to control it and find it can be a great pitch in just about any count.

As mentioned, hard throwers tend to shy away from throwing it because at the lower levels kids can't catch up and you are giving them a chance. Howe4ver that may be a win now vs development issue. At the LL distance the CU is the most effective second pitch since it's tough to get much movement on a breaking ball.

The CU is always thrown "OFF" the FB no mater what the count. It is effective because the speed is less then what is anticipated. The pure speed of a CU is not what is most important but rather the relative difference from the FB. I heard coach Murphy from ASU say his player's bats were tuned to a certain range. Pitches above or below that range gave them trouble. The challenge at every level is to maintain FB mechanics and arm speed but throw with a CU grip.

Lastly, most kids don't understand that the CU is not intended to be a swing and miss pitch in most cases. Throw it in a FB count and get a three hopper to SS, that's great pitching. Lots of kids never learn to trust their CU becasue they are trying to do to much and miss bats. Grip it like a CU and throw a FB down, or down out of the zone.

"...because they are trying to do too much and miss bats."

How true, how true. This is another topic worth a whole discussion!

You are right, one could write a book on the change up.

I don't think my son uses his CU enough however that is not his bread and butter pitch.

I believe that pitchers have different stuff and all use it differently. My son uses his CU for a big swing and a miss and uses his sinking 2 seam FB for the 3 hopper to the ss.

BTW, son has told me that JBB's son has a great CU and he knows how to use it, for sure!

It is common to use a CU first pitch strike when players are young because young hitters go for the first pitch.

I think it is a good idea to encourage the use of the change for younger pitchers, it is important for them to learn to trust it.

quote:

The CU is always thrown "OFF" the FB no mater what the count.

Maddux, Hamels, Lincecum, Santana, etc. would probably beg to differ. A changeup can work effectively no matter if it's the first pitch of an at-bat or an 11th pitch of an at-bat. A batter times the arm and the body motion. If a pitcher doesn't believe he can throw a first pitch changeup, then he probably shouldn't think he can throw a first pitch curveball either. A good pitch is a good pitch regardless of when it's thrown.

Here is a video of my son's fast ball and change up. This batter fouled off several fastballs and sliders until he was done in by the changeup. Bballson throws a circle change. And this clip is an example of why I would like him to throw more changeups. Fastball was 87-88 this day, change was around 79-80.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...youtube_gdata_player

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
Here is a video of my son's fast ball and change up. This batter fouled off several fastballs and sliders until he was done in by the changeup. Bballson throws a circle change. And this clip is an example of why I would like him to throw more changeups. Fastball was 87-88 this day, change was around 79-80.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...youtube_gdata_player

Nice video.
If I'm not mistaken, the batter was late on the fastball, which put him right on the CU, but its sinking action put him away.

I just went back and looked at he full at bat for this guy. There were actually 7 pitches thrown. Four of them were fouled off. He was starting to catch up to the fastball a little and pulled a CB foul. Change was a good one though. It was the 1st change of the AB and the batter didn't expect it at all.

I personally think it can be effective because the trajectory and spin on the ball are very similar to a fastball - until you realize it is slower and drops off the table. Sometimes, with the CB you can see it coming better. One of the keys to throwing an effective CU is coordinating it with your fast ball. What I mean by that is if you are mostly throwing a 2 seam FB, then you should throw a 2 seam CU. The spin on the ball will be the same and it will be much harder to pick up if your arm slot and arm speed stay the same.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:

quote:

The CU is always thrown "OFF" the FB no mater what the count.

Maddux, Hamels, Lincecum, Santana, etc. would probably beg to differ. A changeup can work effectively no matter if it's the first pitch of an at-bat or an 11th pitch of an at-bat. A batter times the arm and the body motion. If a pitcher doesn't believe he can throw a first pitch changeup, then he probably shouldn't think he can throw a first pitch curveball either. A good pitch is a good pitch regardless of when it's thrown.

J H:

We are agreeing with each other. What I'm saying about the CU always working off the FB is that it does not matter what the count is or if the hitter has seen a FB from this pitcher. Hitters are still geared to the FB, so the CU takes advantage of the difference in anticipated speed. If a pitcher can throw a good stride consistently with his CU it can be a great first pitch of an at bat.

Your photo also brings up the issue of handedness. While I think a well thrown CU is a great pitch almost any time there is a particular advantage when facing a hitter batting from the other side of the plate. Consider a left handed pitcher facing a right handed batter. While his breaking ball moves towards the right hander’s’ bat, His CU will normally run arm side and away from the hitter. The reverse is true for a right handed pitcher facing a lefty hitter. His cu will tend to move away from the hitter.

3rdgen- Good point. The reason I brought up Santana in the previous post:

I was invited by a friend to a Mets-Rockies game at Citi Field in the end of August. I got BP passes to the game because my friend's dad is the bench coach for the Mets. As I was standing there watching BP I was chatting with my friend's dad and we were watching Carlos Gonzalez playing pepper with the bleachers. I made a comment about how unbelievable his swing was and he pointed at Ike Davis, who stood about 15 feet away, and he said "Cargo and Ike have similarities about them in their approach in that they hit LHPs just as well as RHPs. A lot of the top left-handed hitters in the game, like Cano, Hamilton, Votto, Gonzalez, have batting averages as good or better against LHPs as they do against RHPs." I asked why and he said that he's noticed that LHPs very rarely go inside against LHHs unless its hard. Good LHHs are able to realize this and adjust accordingly. They'll understand that the only offspeed pitch they'll see from a LHP is away, and if they read a pitch in, they are able to pull their hands in and turn on the ball because its almost always a FB.

I watched Cargo and Todd Helton take a few swings a piece, and noticed how closed off their hips were and how they let the ball travel so well. I began to think about a lot of the LHHs that we consider to be the best in game, and how many of them tend to "dive" over the plate (Cano is a good example of this). I turned to my friend's dad and asked him how, as an LHP, to offset this, and he called Johan over. Johan said to throw a changeup down and in to a lefty. I kind of gave him a puzzled look (conventional wisdom and past instruction has indicated to me that you should never throw a changeup inside). Not wanting to push the issue with Santana, I continued the conversation with my friend's dad, who I assumed had similar kind of knowledge being the team's bench coach. He explained to me that an inside changeup could be a very dangerous pitch because if you miss a spot, "they'll hit it a long way". But he said that if you can locate the changeup in a pitcher's location (I interpreted this as being just below the kneecap on the corner or a few inches in), then it would be very effective. A batter will read the spin out of your hand and time their swing as if the pitch were a fastball, but in reality the pitch is diving inwards and slower. He also said that the pitch doesn't need to be thrown more than 2 or 3 times, just enough that the opponent knows you are willing and able to throw it. Therefore the next time you try to come inside with a fastball, the split second that the batter will spend with the subliminal thought that it could be a changeup could be a difference maker in the point of contact he will make.

I've tried to execute this in my own pitching, and have had mixed results. The few times that I miss the spot, the consequences are suffered. During the fall season at my school, I hit a few LHHs with changeups in the foot. I also gave up a LONG home run on a changeup that floated too much over the middle of the plate. But the few times I threw this pitch in the right location have proven to have great results. Most of my teammates that I tried this against commented that the most they'll do with that pitch is foul it off and it's a good pitch for a sequence.

In short, location and arm speed, as stated, are crucial to have a good changeup. At all levels, a good changeup can be an absolutely lethal pitch to have as part of a pitcher's arsenal because of the qualities of deception it presents to the oppsing batter.

Bballman: thanks for sharing the video. Such a pleasure to watch your son work. I hope my son can attain a smidgen of the success your son has. I'm going to PM you with a link to a video of my son.

Great story and I might add it helps to have the movement and command that Santana has, (had?). A few years ago ML players voted his CU as the single best pitch in the game.

In regards to location I recall what Tony LaRussa said when someone asked him how to pitch to Wade Boggs. He said: How would I pitch to Boggs? Hard in and soft away, how would I pitch to Jesus Christ? Hard in and soft away. The conventional wisdom is that since you have to get the head of the bat out in front to hit the inside pitch you have less time. For a pitch away the hitter has to let it get deeper, wait longer and the slower pitch adds to the amount of time a hitter has to wait. Throwing soft in can be effective in spots, Pedro Martinez would throw his screwball/CU into right handers and get them hacking in self defense. If you have a pitch that moves away from a lefthanders bat like a slider or cutter, mixing in a CU in can be useful.

That brings up another point regarding the CU. Most pitchers are what I’ll call up and down pitchers or in and out pitchers. A power pitcher is often an up and down pitcher. Think of Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens. They can throw the 4 seamer up in the zone or throw the big curve ball breaking into the dirt. Sinker ball slider type pitchers are more in and out. Brandon Webb might be an example, sinker moving down and in, slider down and away. These two types of pitchers throw different types of CUs. Clemons’ split looked like his FB down and then dropped out of sight. Webb’s CU might have more of a horizontal displacement. In other words their CUs supported their up and down or in and out plan.