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I think it is when you get to the "bird dog" level of scout they are everywhere. Literally everyone and their brothers are birddog scouts. Doesn't mean that mistakes cannot be made.

I take issue with your statement that “everyone and their brothers are birddog scouts.” That is absolutely not true. Some guys may like to say they are but there are fewer now than ever before. I occasionally get asked by a MLB scout to see a player for them. That doesn’t make me a birddog scout. That makes me a guy that helps out a scout every now and then.

If a RHP is throwing in the 90’s with great secondary pitches and ends up a high d1 recruit, could he potentially look at low to mid d1’s hoping to get more money? In other words, is there any chance a low d1 might offer 80% plus in a scholarship to get a top prospect in the state? If so, any reason going this route isn’t a good idea other than the ability to say “I committed at X college”?

In D1 baseball there is no such thing as a full ride. 11.7 among 27, 25% minimum, if fully funded is not easy to divide up.

Perhaps, a lower D1 ranked program may give up more to get a better prospect, but why would the player consider such a move?

Coaches usually don't recruit like that. They have to figure out how to best spend the money that they have to win games. That player may be worth one win a week if a starter and as mentioned may get 2,3  transfers for his scholarship.

If you are looking to cut costs on attending college, your son might strongly consider another option, D3 perhaps or a private D1 that awards grants and the player is then considered a walk on.

The 2% or so MLB players that came from rounds 21 to 40 will likely be missed.

However, I think the comment “we will find you” is more directed to those that have typical projectable intangibles and are not playing in a typical place. If you’re touching 95 mph or higher, you can hit a ball 400FT plus, or you field like Ozzy Smith (dating myself there), somebody is going to hear about you and somebody is going to come watch.

In Hillsboro Texas on a weekday in September at Hill College’s semi-dilapidated (at the time) cracker-box field during scout day the kid hangs a few 97’s. Nobody from Arkansas was present, but Vitello was on the phone later that afternoon with the kid, scheduling an unofficial visit for the upcoming weekend. LSU texted the following week, but he already verbally committed to Arkansas. If you do something noteworthy, I do believe you’ll be found.

I don’t know what the scholarship percentage was, my son made all the arrangements. I paid a bit under $5K for the year at Arkansas, so I guess he did a pretty good job negotiating.

@TPM posted:

In D1 baseball there is no such thing as a full ride. 11.7 among 27, 25% minimum, if fully funded is not easy to divide up.

Perhaps, a lower D1 ranked program may give up more to get a better prospect, but why would the player consider such a move?

Coaches usually don't recruit like that. They have to figure out how to best spend the money that they have to win games. That player may be worth one win a week if a starter and as mentioned may get 2,3  transfers for his scholarship.

If you are looking to cut costs on attending college, your son might strongly consider another option, D3 perhaps or a private D1 that awards grants and the player is then considered a walk on.

While the full ride is uncommon and rare, it does exist.

11.7 divided by 27 scholarship players comes out to roughly 43% per player. With all the 25% offers, odds are each team is going to have a few guys in a 75-100% range.

3 players with 25% offers opens up another nearly another 60% points. For every 3 guys at 25% you can put one on a full ride.

Basically for every 25% guy you have an additional 18% to offer to a player who was already allotted 43%.

If my math is wrong please don't crucify me in the replies. Math was never my strong suit

Don't forget that the school may have a 'dollar amount budget' set for baseball scholarships, and it will take a large spreadsheet to figure out 25% - 100% for both instate and out of state COAs. 

At the time when son was being recruited, I had heard of two full rides.  1) was mostly/all academic/need based; and 2) was to keep a lhp out of the draft.   There was a poster on here years ago with twins, and received an offer for both sons, but one was 100% and the other 0% (this was to help with "counters"). 

As a parent, I never knew what other players on son's team were getting.  It didn't start out this way, but son got a different scholly amount each year.  When a player left college for the draft, it free up some money so son got more, with the understanding that the following year it would be less ..... to help with recruiting that summer.  It was all in writing and we could refuse the offer.   

Lottery states give money for GPA, in FL its Bright Futures and tuition is relatively liveable. And yes, there is financial aid as well.

Florida's HC did an interview on how the Bright Futures  program allowed him to have money available for an out of state player. It's a matter of how you want to spend your dollars. Most HC can make it work. And then there is the point, that a lower D1 program would not be fully funded.

Go where you will get the best education regardless of program. Remember there is always the transfer option.

@JucoDad posted:


I don’t know what the scholarship percentage was, my son made all the arrangements. I paid a bit under $5K for the year at Arkansas, so I guess he did a pretty good job negotiating.

@TPM posted:

FWIW some coaches will offer almost a full ride to draft prospects and super 2 prospects (eligible 21 year old player end of sophmore year),  or 3 years then you pay the 4th year if not drafted. If they really want you they will try to get it done.

I didn't really think about it, but he was drafted in 2016, and turned down more than the cost of 4 years at Arkansas for that single junior year season - so they likely took care of him. It all was a blessing, he moved up 15 rounds in 2017 and had year as a Razorback that was worth more than money to him.    

@JucoDad posted:

I didn't really think about it, but he was drafted in 2016, and turned down more than the cost of 4 years at Arkansas for that single junior year season - so they likely took care of him. It all was a blessing, he moved up 15 rounds in 2017 and had year as a Razorback that was worth more than money to him.    

My son was offered  an out of state 90% scholarship per year for 3 years, if not drafted then he had to pay the 4th but he was by the Cardinals.  I thought that was something they did before they made scholarship changes but some programs still do it. I  am pretty certain that coaches, more than they used to, pick up players that they only need for a year and cover their costs.

Last edited by TPM
@keewart posted:

Don't forget that the school may have a 'dollar amount budget' set for baseball scholarships, and it will take a large spreadsheet to figure out 25% - 100% for both instate and out of state COAs.

At the time when son was being recruited, I had heard of two full rides.  1) was mostly/all academic/need based; and 2) was to keep a lhp out of the draft.   There was a poster on here years ago with twins, and received an offer for both sons, but one was 100% and the other 0% (this was to help with "counters").

As a parent, I never knew what other players on son's team were getting.  It didn't start out this way, but son got a different scholly amount each year.  When a player left college for the draft, it free up some money so son got more, with the understanding that the following year it would be less ..... to help with recruiting that summer.  It was all in writing and we could refuse the offer.   

I think that you are more correct that most in this thread.  It's easy to think in terms of percentages when you are dealing with a private school and all tuitions are the same.   The problem is that with state schools often not all tuition cost are the same.   There are going to be some players that are in state and some are out of state.   My 2024 has one D1 offer right now.   When the coaches were discussing the money with us, they gave us a break down of the cost of tuition for an out of state student, the room and board, and all typical additional expenses.   They then gave us a dollar amount for how much his athletic scholarship would cover (ie.. we are offering you $X to cover your expenses).  This did not include any academic merit scholarship which they do allow to be stacked.   They never spoke in terms of percentages, but rather dollar amounts.   So, I believe that the 11.7 is not based upon a percentage but rather a set dollar amount of money that is set aside for baseball.    I don't think that the coaches at this institution are balancing percentages but rather a set amount of budgeted money.   

@Ster posted:

I think that you are more correct that most in this thread.  It's easy to think in terms of percentages when you are dealing with a private school and all tuitions are the same.   The problem is that with state schools often not all tuition cost are the same.   There are going to be some players that are in state and some are out of state.   My 2024 has one D1 offer right now.   When the coaches were discussing the money with us, they gave us a break down of the cost of tuition for an out of state student, the room and board, and all typical additional expenses.   They then gave us a dollar amount for how much his athletic scholarship would cover (ie.. we are offering you $X to cover your expenses).  This did not include any academic merit scholarship which they do allow to be stacked.   They never spoke in terms of percentages, but rather dollar amounts.   So, I believe that the 11.7 is not based upon a percentage but rather a set dollar amount of money that is set aside for baseball.    I don't think that the coaches at this institution are balancing percentages but rather a set amount of budgeted money.   

I think that is a good observation because dollar amounts are easier to understand than percentages.

My understanding is that coaches have a program that does the work for them in working the numbers they have to spend.

EDIT Dont forget all  coaches have different budgets, some don't even have enough to fully fund.

Last edited by TPM

From an educational standpoint, I would love for someone - who is very knowledgeable about college baseball back office specifics - to outline some of the most common D1 scholarship "budgets" the various schools are provided, and thus need to operate within.  I assume some have largely "unlimited" budgets are are constrained only the NCAA regulations.  Conversely, I assume some have very small dollar budgets and therefore may work to maximize the number of minimum scholarship offers (getting back to the 25% minimum).

I'll start with an example (although only 99% confident I am correct) - Mississippi State - I suspect this school has no real scholarship budget.  I believe this school is limited only by the 11.7 total scholarships.  If they felt that every scholarship needed to go to an out-of-state player (in order to field the most competitive team), then they would have the necessary "budget".  The actual budget differential between in-state and out-of-state would largely be foregone tuition.

Towards the other end of the spectrum for D1 programs, specifically private colleges, the number of scholarships and the dollar amount are identical.

I think a coach laying out scholarship dollars (as opposed to percentages) is done to simplify the process for the parent.  If some coach threw out a percentage to me (wishful thinking at this point...), I would immediately convert to dollars anyhow and determine what was left over.

Please note that I have made assumptions, so hoping someone in the know can either confirm or correct as appropriate.  Also curious as to whether a school might have budget limits/restrictions as they relate to tuition versus other COA categories.

Does anyone know why some school allow stacking of academic and athletic vs. others don't?  The academic scholarship for the schools that offered (that doesn't allow stacking) is based on an objective criteria that is available for all the students of the school (i.e. if the student has a certain HS GPA and SAT/ACT score, they automatically get a certain amount of academic scholarship).  Is this just the school using it as an excuse to save money?  Or are they telling us they do not stack but they say something different to other more highly desired recruits?

@atlnon some of the schools who do not allow stacking are bound by state laws prohibiting stacking. NC state schools used to be like that although I believe that changed recently. @2017 Lefty Dad I am not sure anyone except someone in the innermost circles would be able to answer that definitively. Our son was a Mississippi State out of state commit who got a generous percentage stacked with academic but their roster had a lot of Mississippi natives. The fan base talked a lot about the advantage of some of the bigger in-state scholarship options like Hope in GA. It’s very difficult for an out of state  offer to match an in state for public universities.

@2017 Lefty Dad

You know that all universities, colleges have an annual budget which comes from revenue. That revenue helps determine what each individual coach would receive for their budget.

I don't understand why you might think MSU baseball has no budget.

Obviously some big football programs bring in more $$ than others due to success. This and other revenue helps each of the other teams.

Then you have teams in lottery states that provide academic assistance if the academic GPA requirements were met in HS.

Then the player can be awarded financial assistance if necessary.

My point is that it's pretty tough to determine what a baseball coach or any other coach has to spend or how he spends it.  In D1 sports NCAA only requires what is allowed not in how much money the coach gets to spend. In one program 25% minimum might cover a lot of the cost, in another, perhaps not so much. 

In lottery states the majority of rosters for baseball and other head count sports will be from that state. This gives the coach the ability  to get a few out of state players that he/she feels will help the team.

@JucoDad posted:

Interesting data on baseball revenue. I find it hard to believe that TCU is number 1? I know the Arkansas' number is close and there spend is typically around a $1M less (5.5M - DVH gets $1.3M). https://www.collegeraptor.com/...nue/Sports/Baseball/

Yeah, I see issues with that list too. My guess is that the method of accounting has a lot to do with that list looking like it does. Especially how facility costs are amortized. There is no way that Austin Peay generates more revenue than Oklahoma State - just as an example

Here's a bit of an Arkansas homer article, but I believe the numbers are accurate and are likely similar to most large successful programs - it's interesting to see the costs: https://www.armoneyandpolitics...-an-economic-driver/

I know that some here are not Arkansas fans, but from this parents single year perspective it was terrific. I thought fans were knowledgeable and polite (not counting left field), the facilities and technology were leading edge, home and visitor parents sit field level at the dugouts (nobody else in the SEC gives the parents those seats).

@JucoDad posted:

Here's a bit of an Arkansas homer article, but I believe the numbers are accurate and are likely similar to most large successful programs - it's interesting to see the costs: https://www.armoneyandpolitics...-an-economic-driver/

I know that some here are not Arkansas fans, but from this parents single year perspective it was terrific. I thought fans were knowledgeable and polite (not counting left field), the facilities and technology were leading edge, home and visitor parents sit field level at the dugouts (nobody else in the SEC gives the parents those seats).

Interesting "scholarship" expense line item of $651k.  Not sure how it gets that high as that would equate to $55k per full scholarship.  Thoughts on that accounting?  I think those were 2019 figures.  Didn't think even 11.7 out-of-state scholarships would reach half that amount.

@JucoDad posted:

Here's a bit of an Arkansas homer article, but I believe the numbers are accurate and are likely similar to most large successful programs - it's interesting to see the costs: https://www.armoneyandpolitics...-an-economic-driver/

I know that some here are not Arkansas fans, but from this parents single year perspective it was terrific. I thought fans were knowledgeable and polite (not counting left field), the facilities and technology were leading edge, home and visitor parents sit field level at the dugouts (nobody else in the SEC gives the parents those seats).

The fans behind left field have been an issue for more than 40 years

@JucoDad posted:

Here's a bit of an Arkansas homer article, but I believe the numbers are accurate and are likely similar to most large successful programs - it's interesting to see the costs: https://www.armoneyandpolitics...-an-economic-driver/

I know that some here are not Arkansas fans, but from this parents single year perspective it was terrific. I thought fans were knowledgeable and polite (not counting left field), the facilities and technology were leading edge, home and visitor parents sit field level at the dugouts (nobody else in the SEC gives the parents those seats).

Good. Most treat visitors parents horribly.  UT puts them behind visitors dugout so best seats other than MVP seats right behind home plate.  DVH was good when son was being recruited.  Just didn’t think he could play in SEC. But I appreciated honesty.  Glad it worked out like it did.

@adbono posted:

I take issue with your statement that “everyone and their brothers are birddog scouts.” That is absolutely not true. Some guys may like to say they are but there are fewer now than ever before. I occasionally get asked by a MLB scout to see a player for them. That doesn’t make me a birddog scout. That makes me a guy that helps out a scout every now and then.

OK, so you got me there. I'll admit I didn't check the credentials of everyone who claimed to be, or everyone that I was told was a BDS.

OK, so you got me there. I'll admit I didn't check the credentials of everyone who claimed to be, or everyone that I was told was a BDS.

No problem. I was really just trying to call attention to how often people (especially at HS games) like to embellish their position/experience/credentials. Whenever someone tells me they played at X, coach for Y, scout for Z, etc. I always fact check. It’s amazing how often it doesn’t check out.

2023 RHP son had two full ride (tuition) D1 offers - one Ohio Valley Conference and one Atlantic 10... both schools with long-tenured coaches.  Had full ride Juco offers also... all came after schools watching him past summer.  LakePoint, Grand Park, East Cobb, Creekside in KC.

As far as P5 schools he had one in particular who's pitching coach was previously at an OVC school and saw him last summer... full coaching staff change.  The coach wanted him at the P5 but the offer wasn't nearly as good as full tuition... they hit the portal very hard.

One key for our son - he didn't play the post-sophmore summer, and it clearly hurt his visibility with the P5s as most expressed already being done with 2023 recruiting when he showed out last summer.

In the end he took the A-10 offer and we've been very happy so far with the engagement the coaches have shown.  His chances of seeing the mound early will be better, and the academics are great.  Will something happen and he has a P5 opportunity down the road?  Maybe, but I think we'd be very happy if he develops into a core piece for the program he's going to this coming Fall.

Last edited by edwarday
@edwarday posted:

2023 RHP son had two full ride (tuition) D1 offers - one Ohio Valley Conference and one Atlantic 10... both schools with long-tenured coaches.  Had full ride Juco offers also... all came after schools watching him past summer.  LakePoint, Grand Park, East Cobb, Creekside in KC.

All the big name tournaments get knocked around here - especially the PG events like WWBA. But almost all the recruiting I've been a part of and heard of pretty much revolved around coaches seeing the player at East Cobb or Lake Point.

A bit off topic and maybe more relevant in the summer but I never understood why there was so much hate for the events that feature all the best teams in the country.

Last edited by PABaseball
@PABaseball posted:

All the big name tournaments get knocked around here - especially the PG events like WWBA. But almost all the recruiting I've been a part of and heard of pretty much revolved around coaches seeing the player at East Cobb or Lake Point.

A bit off topic and maybe more relevant in the summer but I never understood why there was so much hate for the events that feature all the best teams in the country.

I agree with you PABaseball.   My experience this past year with my son and observing from afar his team mates etc... is that there are a few national events that have been very pivotal with players getting D1 attention.   The events that seemed to have to biggest impact in the recruitment of players in the Southeast are the PG Junior National Showcase in East Cobb, and the PBR Lake Point tournament.   It seems that most of the D1 schools in the south commit a lot of their players immediately following those events.   

The ones bashing on these tournaments are the ones that their kid did not get offered after these tournaments. For the rest of us, that saw PG and PBR major tournaments as a major force in our sons recruiting we understand they were the major point.  I cannot imagine top players not going to these tournaments. But as has been said on here many times for the middle to lower college prospect. These may not be the Place.    

@PitchingFan posted:

The ones bashing on these tournaments are the ones that their kid did not get offered after these tournaments. For the rest of us, that saw PG and PBR major tournaments as a major force in our sons recruiting we understand they were the major point.  I cannot imagine top players not going to these tournaments. But as has been said on here many times for the middle to lower college prospect. These may not be the Place.    

The issue, as I see it, is that the overall pool of talent has been watered down to the point that the best pitchers hardly face the best hitters. So coaches rarely get to see the matchups that mean the most. There are too many marginal players at these events. Another problem is that many parents think their son will be discovered at a big national event. While this is possible it’s not likely. Coaches/scouts show up with a list of players to watch and that’s who they focus on. Occasionally another player will do something that turns heads and gets something out of it. But that is also rare. So (I believe) that you hear more negative about the big national events because too many parents/players go into them with expectations that are unrealistic. Then when they play as well as they are capable and nothing happens they are extremely disappointed. The overwhelming majority of players in big national events get nothing out of them in terms of recruiting exposure. And then they relate their experience to anyone willing to listen.

In agreement with the last few posts above.

Attending high profile events (including camps) is expensive and isn't always in the best interest of every player.

First things first, have your player evaluated independently when he is READY. Very few players show top D1or pro ability early.

I think what it all comes down to is understanding how it works and how your particular player will find the right fit. This is particularly important now, with the portal being a big part of coaches  finding players.  There are lots of coaches who still recruit to develop and use the portal to fill in the holes and others who are using the portal to help create a good product on the field.  And more than likely your freshman will either redshirt or fill in the holes his first year, no matter where he ends up.

Getting your athlete noticed requires a plan as well as a realistic approach. What's most important to your player? For mine it was baseball, he was fortunate to have the ability to play and get noticed at the highest level as well as the academics to get accepted. It's probably 5 times harder (just threw that # out there) these days to get noticed if you are not living in a baseball hotbed, so once again, make a PLAN!

Adbono:

When I created the Area Code games in 1987, there were no "showcases". Each year with advice from the Pro Scouts I made minor adjustments to insure the best players played in the games.

One year I increased to 13 teams and after the six days of games in San Diego, a Scouting Director called to comment "Bob, you watered down the talent"!!

Next year, I returned to 8 teams.

During the Area Code years, I coached a "Scout Team" in Northern California. From this League, 40 players in a five year period later played in the MLB. "Strong competition = competitive talented players and attract Coaches who can Coach.

Bob

I will greatly agree with watered down.  I remember when you had to win a qualifier to get into the WWBA tournaments.  Then it meant something.  Coaches would show up knowing it was some of the best teams in the nation and it was one of the few where all the big teams were at.  You also knew as a player that you had to show up every game.  It was a struggle just to get out of the pool play into the real tournament.

Now every parent thinks their player should be playing in the big tournaments.  I think tournament/showcase ball as a whole has been watered down.  Parents are wasting money,  big money, on these tournaments that they have no business going to.  You do not get better playing great teams.  You get better getting ready to play big teams and many players should never be playing the big teams.

I read an article about about a basketball team that played a national powerhouse last week.  The coach kept saying we competed our butts off from start to finish.  I wanted to rebuttal him but there was no where to rebuttal.  It was 0-23 after the first quarter and the powerhouse team did not even play their starters the second half and won by 56.  Coach, you did not compete at all, much less from start to finish.  You were in over your head before the tip was thrown up.  That is how I also feel going to watch the WWBA and other big tournaments in pool play now.

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