The good stuff.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Anyone missing the real hitting discussions?.....Ya know, the good stuff....

What does that mean Doggie?

Does that statement mean that all of the prior discussions have no value?

Does that mean that you return with an implicit insult to the entire community that contributes to this forum.

Bad start doggie.

Well, how 'bout it?????....Anyone missing the good stuff?..

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Well, how 'bout it?????....Anyone missing the good stuff?..

Yes - the response seems to be overwhelming. LOL

We are all eagerly awaiting more questions about how many tiny baseball players you can fit on the head of a pin.

And the ever wondrous "you dont see what you see"

Or - my personal favorite - "Creating chaos".

How about - "The high-level Swing" - Its a newie - but a goodie.

Then there is the "swing a bat into a 300 pound bag of sand."

And an old classic from 2004 - you dont need to worry about the strength of your arms, hands and wrists.

And dont listen to anyone that has played the game - particularly those who excelled at the game - just listen to the doggie - an anonymous troll

Throw in a few animated skeletons - a curve ball that doesnt really curve and about 500 insults per week.

And there you have it.

The Doggie menu - ala carte of course.



Bad doggie.

YODA........

You have returned huh......

Let me guess....what could it be this time...

Did someone hit a walk off homerun with a less than perfect swing ?

Or will it be more of listen to me (the guy who wont say how he teaches hitting or offer up any references), pat no attention to the guys who have taught this game for decades and have true real world experience in playing & coaching.

Or will it just be more of the one line insults to adults and the kids alike?

We can all hardly wait Yoda !!!!

The good posters don't waste their time here anymore...It's a shame....I do understand why, though....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
The good posters don't waste their time here anymore...It's a shame....I do understand why, though....

Doggie,

You starting trouble early in the morning?

Yoda,

"The good posters don't waste their time here anymore...It's a shame....I do understand why, though....
"

Certainly you are not including yourself as a good poster.

Strange, I have had great discussions with people since you started deleting your old posts and then vaporized.

There are plenty of great and insightful people here of all ages. It's shame the ONLY thing you can do is insult amd ridicule them.

But, then again, what would one expect from someone who starts a thread with....

"
If you're hitting the ball right at people, you're not swinging properly.....
"

and then deletes every post he puts in that thread.

or changes his profile from "I teach hitting" to "Prognosticator".


Just so you do understand Yoda, here is the dictionary's definiton of discussion.

Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

Your one-line insult barrage of others does NOT constitute a discussion.

I miss some of the discussions. It is inevitable that when any topic regarding hitting is presented, it soon becomes something else.

A lot of the old posts from the "good ol' days" have become private message posts with me so we can stay on subject. As CoachB25 said, the problem is that in this forum a lot of hitting instruction turns into an "I know more than you" war and no one gets anything out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach A:
A lot of the old posts from the "good ol' days" have become private message posts with me so we can stay on subject. As CoachB25 said, the problem is that in this forum a lot of hitting instruction turns into an "I know more than you" war and no one gets anything out of it.

Coach A, the problem is that I really enjoy hearing all of those differences of opinion since it gives me something to think about. I've always thought that the best way to gain insight as to what you truly believe is to hear someone else who is passionate about what they believe then measure that against your beliefs. (Does this make sense?) In the end, I know that I don't know anything and so, any thoughts, exchanges of ideas ... are a good thing at least where I'm concerned. JMHO!

I totally agree with you on hearing the differences. I just get frustrated and I think a lot of posters get frustrated when a thread turns into a battle between two individuals trying to prove a point and then the baseball discussion turns into a personal agenda. I think your posts are always really well stated and although I see your passion in your beliefs, it doesn't get off-track. "Dog" tends to get people fired up and talk in circles just to keep them that way.

I think what you bring to the table and most people on this forum bring to the table are priceless for myself and a lot of kids,parents, and other coaches that visit. Keep your passion high and keep sending your opinions. I love talking baseball with those that are as passionate as you.

This is my first post in a while. The hitting discussions have been lame. I monitor but don't respond. Some of the hitting comments are just wrong. I don't agree with a lot of BlueDog but that doesn't mean I haven't learned. Same with CoachB25, I've learned from him yet I don't agree with everything. Add Vance34 to the list. However, I am a better hitting instructor after knocking it around than before. Some of you are very good writers -- you can absolutely bash. However, at least make an intelligent comment about hitting when you do bash. NH go back and look at your posts, I give you an A for English and Composition, but what do you think about hitting? I don't care if you bash me, I'm big, but say something about hitting in the lonnnnngggg bashing so I can digest it.

I'm ugly, stupid, a terrible hitting instructor, but I like hitting ----- feed me.

Baseballpapa, you don't agree with me all of the time? LOL! Heck, I don't even agree with me all of the time. What I post works for us. I'd love to see others at work and, as you stated, I've learned so much just reading and then thinking about various posts. One thing I learned early on is that some posters are very good people and are willing to help or at least give you their honest opinion. That means a lot to me. Bluedog has often responded to pms etc. and so, I feel that I understand him better than some. I will say this, he has a passion and dares to challenge others belief systems. I've always said the same about Rshardteachermanlinear...whateverheisbeingcalledthisweek. Baseballpapa excellent point on the suggestion that even in the bashing, at least present some concept that contributes to thread.

Observation, recently a high school softball coached asked if he could buy lunch and sit down and discuss hitting. I think it took about 2 minutes for his eyes to go blank. He looked at me like I was from another planet. Ironically, that is the same response I'm sure I've caused to many posters. (I did get a free lunch! LOL!)

papa,

I do not need to go back and look at my posts. If you have read them you know I am proponet of the "no-stride" style of hitting that Albert Pujols uses. TRhit and I have had many discussions about it. We have had spirited disagreements, but none of the Yodaisms. I believe in drills and hard work, from soft toss right up through live hitting.

I also very strongly believe in listening to people who have actually taught players who are competeing at the levels we are talking about. They have the real world pratical experience of knowing what things work and what things don't.

I do not give much creedence to people like Yoda, who claim to teach, but will not back up their claims with any real evidence of doing so. I have tremendous respect for the people my son has worked with. These men have spent the vast majority of their lives dedicated to this sport. Men who have played professional baseball and have taught and coached players who are now in pro ball at every level as well as college ball.

As an example, when we are discussing aspects of tee work, and some yo-yo like Yoda comes on here just firing one-line insults at everyone about how everything we are saying is wrong, with absolutely no other input on the subject at all...well you will just have to pardon me if i believe such a person is just a fool.

If he has something real to contribute, then state it!

If you look at my profile, I do not claim to be any kind of expert. I have been very fortunate to be around many great baseball minds over the years. Another example, I was at the University of Maine from '78 to '82. John Winkin was the head coach. Those teams went to the College World series every year I was in College. Many of those players went on to pro ball. I used to watch them work out in the fieldhouse in the winter. Hitters, pitchers,... everyone was working on drills as well as taking live action as best one could do it indoors. Coach Winkin is still coaching and has over 1000 college victories to his credit. I think he knows more about teaching baseball than someone like Yoda.

Let me ask you, do people who do not know you or your reputation as an instructor just blindly give their kids & money to you? Or do they ask around about you and ask you about the players you have worked with?

Yoda on other hand used to have "I teach hitting". Well, where did he teach? Who has he taught? How would one get a lesson from him? These questions were asked of him many, many times. The only responses were more vague one-liners. Again pardon me, but I have openly stated the backgrounds of the people I have been involved with. Yoda will only hurl insults at the idea of working with men who have spent decades in the game.

We just had a nice give & take on hitting the outside pitch. There were differences, but no insults like Yoda hurls. I have had many discussions in the pitching forum as well.

The only people I have bashed in my time here are those like Yoda. People who do not want to discuss but just insult. Like you i can take it with no skin off my back, but when guys like Yoda ridicule a kid here who was only asking for help, to me that is inexcusable.

If you moderate here, why have you allowed this guy to do what he does? I'll take your word for it that you may have picked up something along the way with this guy, but go back and look at these posts of his and see if you can see anything that actually contributes to the discussion at hand. Try the one where he offered nothing but ridcule to the youngster, beastball4, in the thread entitled "any advice? hitting clips". Interesting that there was great help & discussion going on there until he started his tired act again. That is typical of all his input here since I joined this site.

quote:

We just had a nice give & take on hitting the outside pitch.

And, a player reading that give and take, still wouldn't be able to hit the outside pitch.....

Here's a hint...The length of the bat has nothing to do with it......

quote:

This is my first post in a while. The hitting discussions have been lame. I monitor but don't respond. Some of the hitting comments are just wrong.

This is an example of what has happened to the good posters......

Yoda,

For the first time you agree with me. See you can come over to the light.

But you missed the real point of what brought up the length of the bat. It was stated that you should hav eto release the top hand in order to hit that pitch. I do not believe that is the case, and as a way to show this i simply stated with the typical HS player using a 32 to 34 inch bat, you must be a long way off the plate to need to release the top hand in order to hit a strike on the outside corner.

Yoda,

so enlighten us as to how you would help a young player hit that pitch.

BLUE, good to have you back!

NH, Pujols doesn't stride? since when? Your saying his front foot doesn't move towards the pitcher? Can you describe this no stride you talk about or are you just going to state it.

NH, I know Winkin well. What in the ______ does he have to do with anything. Let him come and represent himself he is more than capabale of doing that far better than you are.

NH, why don't you enlighten us to how YOU would teach a kid to hit an outside pitch!

TELL ME, you don't consider this teaching him to hit an outside pitch.....PLEASE!

quote:

Question....How far away from the plate would you be standing? Most HS/College guys are swinging 32" to 34" bats. With a 17" plate, and the bat handle is some distance away from your body as you swing, plate coverage should not be an issue. You would have to be an awfully long way off the plate not to be able to cover the outside corner.

I can see your point if you are talking about a pitch a full baseball or more off the plate (maybe the ump having giving it all game). I would think a pitch on the corner though you should be able to hit to RF without flailing away at it with one hand. You certainly should be able to get to contact on it with two hands.

quote:

lol....good use of the math....quite convoluted...but good

I was looking at it in a much more simplistic fashion. Most hitters are taught to hit the inside pitch out in front and pull it. The outside pitch we allow to get deeper into the plate and take the ball to right.

Without heading to the drawing board and calculator, i would guess that you missed sometihng in your numbers. I have watched many players hit HRs to right on pitches on the outside corner.

A very simple method to verify you can hit the pitch your talking about with out releasing the top hand before contact. Use a hitting tee and a place the ball such that it is just touching the black on the outside. You will find they don't have to set up that close to the plate to hit that pitch. I have done this many times with my son and other players I have worked with.

You can at the same time verify they can get the inside pitch by moving the tee to the inside corner, but placing it out in front of the plate.

What you need to do NH is get your feelings off your shoulder. Read what BLUE writes and digest it. Do WE really care HOW he writes it. Are you THAT sensitive?

SO NH, what you beg of BLUE is something you yourself DON'T even do! If you clearly understand the swing and how elite hitters swing the bat then you could easily understand BLUE's post.

NH, your like the guy who wants to learn to be a better hitter and takes lessons from GEORGE BRETT then afterwards says, "I'll do it my way" BUT THANKS!

Its not BLUES WAY to hit nor is it anyone elses way. ITS THE RIGHT WAY!

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:
Do WE really care HOW he writes it.

Yes - in fact - we do care. On all forums and with all posters.

As long as the dialogue follows the "Board Manners" rules laid down by the founder/owner and operator of this site - my guess is the dialogue will be helpful, interesting and maybe even full of differing opinions and perspectives.

However - if personal insults start flying - all bets are off.

"so enlighten us as to how you would help a young player hit that pitch."

What is this guy doing to hit the outside plate pitch?....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/dunn_adam1.mpeg

Doesn't set-up close to the plate....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/dunn_adam.mpeg

Swingbuilder, the thought process for Albert Pujos as well as some others is "heel - toe." Not stride. I wish I had the abilities to post some video I have on him but, to be honest, its easy enough to find it on your own. He raises up that front foot to the toe but his thought is to place that heel down and then rotate to the back toe. At least that is what happens when he is working on his swing. As you will well note, in doing so, he sets the heel down, completes the swing and that back toe more times than not comes completely off of the ground. I been fortunate enough to be there a couple of times when he has been working on it and I've heard the instruction. Perhaps you want to argue that this is then a stride. This method is what we teach/coach at our school. Seems to work. This year we will place several more players at the D-I level using this method. JMHO!

It's posture adjustment. Welcome back Dog...
I know it's not an imposter as only you know how to answer questions with questions.

NYdad, study the action of his back elbow....As per our last discussion....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/dunn_adam1.mpeg

Dog, Yes...posture sets swing plane, not the elbow, which should slot naturally.

Good clip, thanks Siggy, for showing improper and proper use of the back elbow in the swing...

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=14&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

This is how "not to hit" the down and away pitch....

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=10&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Excellent clip Dog...

SWing,

Pujols uses a "no_stride" techinque. It has been discussed here 100s of times and written about in many publications. The small movement he uses to trigger his swing is NOT a stride. CoachB said it very well. There are a lot of swing keys that have been used to describe it, but stride is not one of them.

"NH, I know Winkin well. What in the ______ does he have to do with anything. Let him come and represent himself he is more than capabale of doing that far better than you are.
"

SIMPLE POINT...especially if you know Coach Winkin, would you want him or Yoda instructing your kids?


"What you need to do NH is get your feelings off your shoulder. Read what BLUE writes and digest it. Do WE really care HOW he writes it. Are you THAT sensitive?
"

Are you serious....Do we care how he writes it...of course we do, this site is visited by many young players. His "communication approach" is a joke especially when it comes to getting what ever his point is across to them.

Again, i would ask people to look at his post in
the thread entitled ""any advice? hitting clips" he did one h_ell of a job help out that kid didn't he.

Am I that sensitive?....no, but who cares, its supposed to be about the kids, Remember? Many of them are that sensitive.


As far as the math about the bats, Swing... are you actually that dense....I brought that up as a joke. The other gentleman decided to take off with it so i just played along.


"SO NH, what you beg of BLUE is something you yourself DON'T even do! If you clearly understand the swing and how elite hitters swing the bat then you could easily understand BLUE's post.
"

Hmmm...i guess im in good company out here if i dont understand what he posts. I admit it, I failed one-liner translation in college.

LOL....what i ask of Yoda?....and i dont do?...what are you talking about?

Swing, Take another look at CoachB's post. Is there some reason why Yoda can not articulate his "ideas" as CaochB did. Straightforward, NO BS....That post is very understandable.


Now, Yoda throws out a clip....then instead of telling anyone how a player would have to work to achieve a swing such as Adam Dunn's ...he just throws out another useles one-liner.

If this was the way to teach hitting to a player, then every hitting instructor out there would be just sitting kids in front of a TV and sayng..."see...thats how you do it....Now go do it."


Yoda just did it again, here.....

What is this guy doing to hit the outside plate pitch?....

Answering a question with a question....if he has some point he wants to get across with the clip of Dunn, just say it. Why all the BS?

Lets use a clip of a top MLB hitter to say here is how to do it, and one of a kid to say here is how not to do it.

Swing, if you call this teaching or instruction, go spend your life savings and have Yoda teach everyone you know how to hit.

Maybe you can enlighten me Swing......

Exactly what pearls of wisdom are buried in this classic Yoda one liner?

"If you're hitting the ball right at people, you're not swinging properly..... "

Yeah, there is a lot about the elite/high level swing in that one.

In case you forgot, the is the High School Baseball Web Site. The concept is how to teach this to the young players.

Simple example, what drills or skills would you have that young kid in Yoda clip do to get to the point where he could swing like Adam Dunn?

quote:

If this was the way to teach hitting to a player, then every hitting instructor out there would be just sitting kids in front of a TV and sayng..."see...thats how you do it....Now go do it."

In most all cases, the kids would be alot better off doing just this which you suggest.....

Now, we're getting somewhere....Some common ground.....

quote:

quote:
If this was the way to teach hitting to a player, then every hitting instructor out there would be just sitting kids in front of a TV and sayng..."see...thats how you do it....Now go do it."


In most all cases, the kids would be alot better off doing just this which you suggest.....

Yoda,

Very good...So you admit that no one needs you at all!

All players should just watch TV and learn these skills by osmosis.

NH and Coach, sure Pujols uses a no stride TECHNIQUE. BUT HE DOES STRIDE WITH HIS FOOT. In other words does a KID know what you mean by no stride. When he can clearly see Pujols FOOT move forward when he hits? PUJOLS FOOT DOES MOVE, he doesn't just lift the heel. I have 23 clips of him moving his foot towards the pitcher. AGAIN, how confusing is you saying Pujols doesn't stride to a kid who DOES SEE Pujols striding, unless you DESCRIBE the Technique as oppossed t just saying it. You guys are incorrect if you say his foot doesn't move forward.

I haven't read anywhere that Blue has put a kid down. WHY don't you stop puttig him down and just over look his post.

Why do you care how he writes it. One liner's are not against the rules here. Your stuck NH, shake yourself!

No I'm not dense, what I am is modeling you NH. Is this site for jokes or helping kids? If you don't understand what he post. Then over look it, don't comment on it, or you can contemplate what he does mean!

I suppose every coach you had NH was someone you understood all the time? I doubt it. If you don't like Blue's coaching style then go play on someone elses team.

quote:

All players should just watch TV and learn these skills by osmosis.

NH, what he is saying is KIDS need to watch the best hit and then try and copy how they do it! NH, how you see a guy swinging on TV and you teaching it MORE THAN LIKELY isn't how that guy swings the bat at all. Don't know your age NH, don't really care either, but when I was young we didn't have a guy on every corner messing kids up by teaching them how NOT TO HIT. Kids need to emulate good hitters and not listen to guys teach their interpretation of what they THINK THEY SEE that good hitter doing!

Cut thru all the banter and notice the few here that tend to comprehend and agree with what the Dog preaches regarding high-level swing technique are scouts/coaches that have spent time studying big league hitter's. Don't believe this to be a coincidence and would suggest giving more thought to what he's pitching and less on his delivery.

Swing,

When you walk you take a stride. When we ( (I am 46 by the way) were all younger the predominant way to swing was to stand feet about shoulder width and take a stride towards the pitcher. The "no-stride" technique simply starts you at the point where you would have ended up after the stride. Yes, there is still a small movement forward, but it is not a stride.

If you wish to believe that what Pujols does is take a stride, by all means continue to think that. In the words of Yoda...You wrong

quote:

Kids need to emulate good hitters and not listen to guys teach their interpretation of what they THINK THEY SEE that good hitter doing!

lol....so only a few self-ordained gurus here on this web site have any idea of how to interpret what a hitter is doing?

Men who have coached and played the sport for decades and now instruct young players are just ignorant fools.

That is the message you want eveyone to buy into?

"but when I was young we didn't have a guy on every corner messing kids up by teaching them how NOT TO HIT.
"

You probably did not have anyone around to tell you were doing it wrong either. Yuor telling me if you had access to an ex-pro player, you would have ignored him and just kept watching tv and trying to copy some player in the bigs.

Well...you go on believing what you want Swing,
I prefer to live in world where the instructor actually works with the player and can show him specfic things to do to help whatever thing he is doing wrong. No need for a 3rd party to translate it, just a good working realtionship between instructor and student.

Would you please explain why that approach is so horrific in your eyes ?

quote:

You probably did not have anyone around to tell you were doing it wrong either. Yuor telling me if you had access to an ex-pro player, you would have ignored him and just kept watching tv and trying to copy some player in the bigs

WRONG AGAIN!

NH, I lived with an ex pro player. My Dad. He taught me well. He made me do what the best do by using my eyes and watching them on TV. Then I would go hit and he would say " is that what you saw" "is that how you believe he did it".

Being an ex pro player doesn't mean you can teach hitting NH.

Your explanation of Pujols technique is LAME at best. That is not what a no stride technique is. It has more to do with the middle and how he manipulates it that would be no stride and not heel - toe.

quote:

lol....so only a few self-ordained gurus here on this web site have any idea of how to interpret what a hitter is doing?

Men who have coached and played the sport for decades and now instruct young players are just ignorant fools.

That is the message you want eveyone to buy into?

I said that? or just your poor interpretation?

NH, what I'm saying is this........what have you posted to substantiate your knowledge of the swing of elite hitters?

Paste some of your clips here. Talk about the swing. Interject some substance. ALL YOU DO IS COMBAT BLUE!

I know where he is coming from. Question is in what direction are you headed to? BUT, we do know you come from the direction of knocking Blue.

Teach us NH, what you know about the swing. The ELITE SWING!

I'm for the way Pujols hits, for Pujols. Don't think Berkman, A-Rod or others should hit like Pujols. I also believe if you try to spread out too many kids, you will not give them a chance to play college ball.

How many little guys can do what Pujols does with power?

Kind of fun being at it again -- don't you think BlueDog, NH, swingbuster, etc. Where's Vance34 when you need him. Hey Vance34 how's this thread going?

swingbuilder, please explain your comment on "and not heel-toe." Also, if you don't mind, please post a few videos on Pujos' stride. Anxiously awaiting. --- Maybe those days of lull are gone and we're back to "the good stuff." Note - naturally, Heel-Toe is the beginning and end. What happens in between is really important -

Regarding power - I have several players who hit, please forgive me swingbuilder, "heel-toe" and they have some pretty good pop. I know a certain young lady that hits in this manner and she recently had a tournament where the majority of her hits were triples and she only made one out. She hit a ball in a recent middle school game that shocked everyone watching.

Coach, just telling a kid heel-toe doesn't even come close to explaining what your trying to get across. Its how that hitter uses his middle to swing the bat. Just raising the heel and going up on the Toe doesn't warrant a good swing. Sure a kid can have success doing it or he can't. It doesn't mean he is doing it correct. Does he use external rotation when he does this technique or does he use internal rotation. Are they spinning by using the front leg to push the front hip open? Are the using the feet to turn the middle with this heel-toe technique? Are they defying gravity? are they hitting against the frontside? or on the backside? Simply saying a no stride technique is Heel-Toe means nothing.Heel-Toe is not the beginning Nor is it the end! What happens "IN BETWEEN" as you said is what I wanta know if you and NH KNOW?

Coach, you have several emails at your posted email address through your school system.

Swing,

One....I envy you having been raised by an ex-player. Right off the start, you were ahead of the game.


Two...obviously just being an ex-player does not mean you can instruct, but why are you and BD and others so opposed to those do have the ability to coach and teach and also happen to have a good background with experience?

You keep talking about the elite/high level swing, myself and many others here have been begging this character to explain how you take a young player and get him to the point where he has this elite swing.

IS THAT NOT THE PURPOSE OF THIS SITE ?

So far this has been a futile attempt, it always results in this same foolishness. This is a high school baseball web site, the aim is to help HS players. If you or BD or someone else here possesses the Rosetta Stone of hitting, Please show the rest of us. I will be the first in line to say I was wrong.

But just posting clips and saying do what he does is not teaching.

Now if you still believe that you wave your magic wand and just keep asking questions of your student all the time and he will one day "get it", so be it.

I prefer to have people who can communicate what it is that they know. If you or BD or any of the others supporters of this magic method would just simply communicate, you may find that other people would agree with you. But since you find it necessary to wrap everything in riddles and innuendo, this is the kind of discussion that you bring out.

I have been asking this person to explain how he would teach what he know since i first saw him post. Strange how it always takes a 3rd party to "understand" him.

In all that time, he has never offered up anything like im sure your Dad did for you. Im also sure your Dad didnt teach you by always asking questions. Im pretty certain at some point he showed you some drill or other activity to help you understand what it is he meant for you to understand. Im also sure at some point you & he must have talked about hitting and he surely must have tried to explain some of it to you as well as asking you questions.


As far as Pujols goes.....

"
Your explanation of Pujols technique is LAME at best. That is not what a no stride technique is. It has more to do with the middle and how he manipulates it that would be no stride and not heel - toe.
"

Once again, so enlighten me, the poor ill informed soul, as too what you think it is.
What is he doing with the middle? How is does he initiate it? what keys would you have him thinking about when he is working on the middle?

You dont believe CoachB25 ?

"I been fortunate enough to be there a couple of times when he has been working on it and I've heard the instruction."

Now your the one intrepreting what you see, and telling a man who was there observing and listening to the session that he is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
Swing,

When you walk you take a stride. When we ( (I am 46 by the way) were all younger the predominant way to swing was to stand feet about shoulder width and take a stride towards the pitcher. The "no-stride" technique simply starts you at the point where you would have ended up after the stride. Yes, there is still a small movement forward, but it is not a stride.

If you wish to believe that what Pujols does is take a stride, by all means continue to think that. In the words of Yoda...You wrong

Pujols taking a stride

Pujols taking a stride part 2

Here are two clips of Pujols taking a stride....period.No ifs ands or buts, he is taking a stride in both clips.He does not take a very long stride, but it is still a stride.

quote:

What happens "IN BETWEEN" as you said is what I wanta know if you and NH KNOW?

Swing,

This is the foolish game that you & BD seem to want to play.

Is there some kind of reason why you can not just state what you know?

Is this the way you would communicate to a student?

bbscout,

nice clips,

but take your mouse cursor and place the point of it right at the back of his heel. His lifts his foot and opens it, placing the heel back down in almost exactly the same spot.

That is a trigger mechanism certainly, but it is NOT a stride. That is why its called no-stride.

The key is generating weight shift momentum into rotation which is accomplished by using your middle, not stride length. IMO too much emphasis on the stride...

NYDad,

Thank you, I agree!

NH, you agree? but you say Pujols does not stride. He does stride. Its not called no stride because he doesn't stride, HE DOES! Its called no stride because of what NYDAD has mentioned. Your the one who said Pujols doesn't stride. THE VIDEO DOESN"T LIE!

quote:

I will be the first in line to say I was wrong.

Its not about you being wrong or right. Thats not the goal. Open your mind NH, dive into the swing from the middle out. Learn what the best do.

quote:

I will be the first in line to say I was wrong.

You will?

Didn't you just look at Pujols taking a stride from 2 clips posted here? and your response was.........

quote:

nice clips,

but take your mouse cursor and place the point of it right at the back of his heel. His lifts his foot and opens it, placing the heel back down in almost exactly the same spot.

That is a trigger mechanism certainly, but it is NOT a stride.

Swingbuilder, I sent you a video of Pujos no-stride. I don't have the ability to post it. If you don't mind...

Swing,

I tell you what....you start walking with a "stride" that has the length of movement that Pujols heel moves in that first clip.

See how far you can go.

Yuor absoultely right...the video does not lie....Instead of contiuning to play this stupid semantic game, are you ever going to actually say what it is you know.

I am at this point your humble student, please swing show me the light.

quote:

Learn what the best do.

PLEASE ENLIGHTEN THIS LOST SOUL

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
bbscout,

nice clips,

but take your mouse cursor and place the point of it right at the back of his heel. His lifts his foot and opens it, placing the heel back down in almost exactly the same spot.

That is a trigger mechanism certainly, but it is NOT a stride. That is why its called no-stride.

I have gone over these clips about 50 times.....that is why I posted them. He takes a stride in both. As I said before, it is not a long stride, but it is a stride.

As far as placing the heel down in the exact spot.....you are wrong, and the video proves it. I have lots more video stored too.

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
Swing,

I tell you what....you start walking with a "stride" that has the length of movement that Pujols heel moves in that first clip.

See how far you can go.

Yuor absoultely right...the video does not lie....Instead of contiuning to play this stupid semantic game, are you ever going to actually say what it is you know.

I am at this point your humble student, please swing show me the light.

Where does it say that a hitter must stride the length of a walking stride??? Some hitters like G Brett and Mantle had long strides, some like Pujols and Bonds had short strides. Ted Williams had a medium length stride, but they all have strides. Edmonds is the only guy that I have seen numerous clips of that I have never personally seen take a stride.

quote:

See how far you can go.

NH, not sure I understand your point...what difference does it make how short/long the stride is?

NH, are we talking about walking or hitting? Any movement with the lead foot when it leaves the ground is considered a stride, NOT WALKING.

Coach25 sent me a clip of Pujols. The clip starts late and only shows Pujols with the toe on the ground. Coach25 says he uses this clip to teach by. I have the same clip he sent me BUT I have the clip from the start. It shows Pujols moving his foot forward to toe touch.

NH, my point to you is that Pujols foot and heel-toe, as you used, as nothing to do with his technique of hitting. He has a wide base and a small stride so he can better adjust to off speed pitches. BUT, it has nothing to do with his ability to create movement and momentum to rotate his hips.

Swing

"BUT, it has nothing to do with his ability to create movement and momentum to rotate his hips."

...at what point did i ever say that it did?

Lets put down the swords ok?

I am genuinely asking you to help me understand
what it is you know.

NH, BLUE and NY DAD and BBSCOUT all see that Pujols strides. You have to see that 1st.

Clip 6 shows a fairly significant stride.
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Anyone missing the real hitting discussions?.....Ya know, the good stuff....

yes

To stride, or not to stride: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
the slings and arrows of outrageous fastballs,
Or to take arms against a sea of off-speed pitches,
And by opposing end them.
To strikeout: to sleep;
No more; and by a strikeout to say we end.

Compliments of Billy "White shoes" Shakespeare.

On the subject of Pujlos, the one thing that jumps out at me about his swing is he pre-loads his shoulders. Most MLB hitters load their shoulders against their stride whereas Pujlos appears to have very little shoulder load once he begins weight shift.

Actually - some load their shoulders against their stride alot - some very little - and some in between.

So what exactly does that mean?

On the subject of a pre-loaded upper body, how about Manny Ramirez? This is, imo, the simplest way to handle the stride/load process. There is no need to load the hands during the stride, like I hear all the time...

MLB hitters load the shoulders, not the hands....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac03.mpeg

Level,

Some do - and some dont. Some have very exaggerated loads and some have very subtle loads.

You get the point I am sure.

What you have to watch out for are the guys that say there is only one way. Its almost always BS or ego or both. IMO.

And watching films of the best players will prove that. IMO.

When watching high school hitters I have noticed that the knob of the bat often changes direction drastically during their strides. In other words, the knob will point down the opposite foul line in the hitter's stance, then turn away from the pitcher, towards the catcher during the stride.

Pro hitters, on the other hand, tend to keep the knob of the bat pointed in the same direction during the stride. For example, http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Chipper01.mpeg, or http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac01.mpeg The knob of the bat points to the catcher's shin guard, and stays there until the front foot plants and the hip start their move.

I think the HS kids have all that hand movement beacuse they are either taught to "load the hands" in order to get them going, or because they are told to "cheat" the knob of the bat toward the pitcher. They feel this is a shorter path the the strike zone. Fastpitch girls do this alot, try to start with the knob facing the first baseman (rh hitter).

I brought up Manny before because I think his method is the simplest, yet still provides max power. Get those hands back, and leave them back.

Level,

For most every High School aged player - getting your upper body into proper hitting position at front foot plant is important.

How you get there is not. IMO.

You will either be ready for the pitch - or you wont - and usually the timing of your upper body load (Both shoulders AND hands) will determine whether you are ready to hit or dead meat.

IMO.

Level, agree that Manny is similar to Puljos with respect to pre-loading the shoulders.

It's - Perhaps some of the experts will correct me on this if I am mistaken but it is my observation that the vast majority of big league hitters will load shoulders against their stride unlike Pujlos/Manny who pre-load.

Nevertheless, the objective is getting into proper and launch position which they ALL do.

quote:

Originally posted by NYdad:

Nevertheless, the objective is getting into proper and launch position which they ALL do.

NyDad,

Yes I agree - they all do - and there are a million variations on how they get there - IMO

LevelPath, High School, and other amateur hitters, are taught to relax in the stance.....Relax and get rid of the tension.....You hear this from many who post on here.....Coaches and Dads.....They do not understand and comprehend what forming a box with the hands, arms and shoulders while creating connection is all about....They do not understand and comprehend that load is tension.....Nor do they realize that hitters simply can't relax, then load, against fast pitching......

MLB hitters do the opposite....They are in a state of load when they step into the box.....The connection between their hands and arms to their shoulders is already begun....Their body has tension before they stride.....They do not relax in the batter's box.......

I agree, it is amazing watching High School hitters do what you describe....It is even more amazing how confident they seem to look when they swing and miss......They think they're doing it the right way....Why not, their coach says they are....

Bluedog,

Nonsense. You went from loading shoulders (and not hands - mistake BTW) to "relaxing in the box".

A total diversion.

Then you claim to know what others across the USA "understand and comprehend". How exactly would you know that?

And then - as usual - you somehow come back to slamming coaches and dads. Of course - you had to add the preface "many who post on here".

A total BS post IMO. The same old same old.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
You hear this from many who post on here.....Coaches and Dads.....They do not understand and comprehend what forming a box with the hands, arms and shoulders while creating connection is all about....They do not understand and comprehend that load is tension


I agree, it is amazing watching High School hitters do what you describe....It is even more amazing how confident they seem to look when they swing and miss......They think they're doing it the right way....Why not, their coach says they are....

The question remains.

What is the agenda?

Why cant this poster participate in any discussion without a criticism of others on this site.

Is it because he has nothing useful to contribute? Is he just an angry dude? Or is he a cyber troll whose primary objective is to disrupt?

4 years of this nonsense. Consistent and unrelenting. HS coaches - college coaches - dads - players. A long laundry list of garbage.

Ask yourself this question.

When you post - do you do this?

Do you use your posting priviledges to denigrate others? Or do you try to offer your opinion to help others.

Ask yourself that question.

Then come back and try to defend this cyber entity.

The stance is a very important part of the hitting process.....MLB hitters realize it's importance.....Most amateurs don't......

Yeah - thats wonderful.

The spikes are important too. And the brand of eyeblack you use is critical.

Just go to another topic dude.

Divert - and run.

Bluedog,

For the 876th time.

We are here to help the kids and the parents.

We are not here to cyber slam people.

Let that sink in.

Get with the program.

quote:

The stance is a very important part of the hitting process.....

Dog, would you be kind enough to elaborate on the importance of a hitters batting stance as in pre-load/pre-swing position. Thanks.

quote:

For most every High School aged player - getting your upper body into proper hitting position at front foot plant is important.

How you get there is not. IMO.

SAY WHAT? How you get there isn't important? Are you serious? Thats the problem with hitting today. Poor comments like this.

quote:

Actually - some load their shoulders against their stride alot - some very little - and some in between.

So what exactly does that mean?

Then follows it up with this comment! WOW

What is it your talking about? Is it a coil or a counter rotation that your talking about?

MLB players LOAD THE BODY. They don't load the hands. They load the body and then they unload the body, but ITSINTHEGAME says how you get there is not important! NOT ONE BIG LEAGUE HITTER WOULD AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT!

quote:

And watching films of the best players will prove that. IMO.

Obviously someone hasn't been watching any, ITS!


Very good observation LEVEL about the knob. Its a sign that hitters keep the hands back and not the body back. That old saying "STAY BACK" is like "SQUISH THE BUG" a bad one!

Hitters coil the shoulder but they LOAD the body.

DOG, I agree hitters look like they are about to knock the cover off the ball before they actually do!

IT"S, your from the Carolina's, you know how to act better than this!

NY DAD, as you know. Guys have lots of stances/ style. But as they begin to prepare to swing all elite hitters move the body in a north,east,south and west fashion all at the same time to swing. They tilt the body, they pock the butt out more they have lateral movement and they also move down. They load the body. You know they are about to attack. They get to the READY MODE.

Something that ITSINTHEGAME says isn't important!

Oh YEAH DOG WELCOME BACK and where's PAPA when we need him!

Oh by the way, PUJOLS STRIDES

Vance,

It is refreshing to see you are so passionate about the subject.

As for the first point - we disagree - and thats OK.

On your second point - I was not talking about anything. I asked a question - and received no answer. All I received was yet another question - from you. LOL. Just like Bluedog.

Additionally - you mention a comment about hand loading. I believe my comment was that hitters load both shoulders and hands. You parsed my comment - and made it appear as if I said hitters load their hands only. That is either selective editing - or you cannot read well. Either way - not very nice.

Lastly - the Carolina's comment is a weird one IMO. If you are referring to my response to BlueDog - understand this please:

If he comes onto the site - and criticizes and/or insults posters (be they dads,moms,kids,etc...) - I will be there every single time to question his motivation and remind him that this is not what the site is about.

What that has to do with having a home in the Carolinas is beyond me. LOL Perhaps you can explain.



P.S. Typing in CAPS is unbecoming and gives the impression of desperation. IMO.

Its in the game,

quote:

Bluedog,

Nonsense. You went from loading shoulders (and not hands - mistake BTW) to "relaxing in the box".

A total diversion.

Then you claim to know what others across the USA "understand and comprehend". How exactly would you know that?

And then - as usual - you somehow come back to slamming coaches and dads. Of course - you had to add the preface "many who post on here".

A total BS post IMO. The same old same old.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
You hear this from many who post on here.....Coaches and Dads.....They do not understand and comprehend what forming a box with the hands, arms and shoulders while creating connection is all about....They do not understand and comprehend that load is tension


I agree, it is amazing watching High School hitters do what you describe....It is even more amazing how confident they seem to look when they swing and miss......They think they're doing it the right way....Why not, their coach says they are....


The question remains.

What is the agenda?

Why cant this poster participate in any discussion without a criticism of others on this site.

Is it because he has nothing useful to contribute? Is he just an angry dude? Or is he a cyber troll whose primary objective is to disrupt?

4 years of this nonsense. Consistent and unrelenting. HS coaches - college coaches - dads - players. A long laundry list of garbage.

Ask yourself this question.

When you post - do you do this?

Do you use your posting priviledges to denigrate others? Or do you try to offer your opinion to help others.

Ask yourself that question.

Then come back and try to defend this cyber entity.

DOG, said something to warrant these 2 responses from you? Just get on with the conversation at hand. Talk about the swing? What ITS have you offered other than
[QUOTE] For most every High School aged player - getting your upper body into proper hitting position at front foot plant is important.

How you get there is not. IMO. [/QUOTE

How a hitter rotates and how he gets to rotation is very important. How he gets there is the purpose of how efficient he can do it.

No where did I say you said just hands when loading. My studies say Hitters load the body and that they coil the shoulder.

My NC comment was becasue I thought people in NC were nice! You'll never learn the swing properly with your current disposition. You throw out as many non usable one liners as anybody.

Like How you get there isn't important. WELL, explain that, could you?

and my caps writing. Thats cause I'm yelling at you and because maybe you can see what your reading better!

Vance,

Here's the difference. I participate in many discussions - including hitting. I enjoy the different perspectives and sharing of ideas - until the insults begin.

Since you began on this site - you have taken the same approach as BlueDog - insulting people
on just about every topic. From showcasing to recruiting to hitting.

You appear not to have gotten in the spirit of this great site.

As for the hitting topics:
You guys are the self-proclaimed hitting experts.

Unfortunately - I just dont see it.
I know that frustrates you - and I'm sorry about that. Just the way it is.

Asking a million circular questions - playing with semantics - misquoting other posters - and criticizing and insulting anyone who disagrees with you. Just not very impressive at all.

ITS, I see your point. I speak from fact on the different subjects. Most parents here want to know what it is that happens on the other side. I am giving them that info from the other side. As for insults, your the ring leader. Dog, didn't insult anyone, he merely said "

quote:

High School, and other amateur hitters, are taught to relax in the stance.....Relax and get rid of the tension.....You hear this from many who post on here.....Coaches and Dads.....They do not understand and comprehend what forming a box with the hands, arms and shoulders while creating connection is all about....

Its, that is a true statement! Most coaches and Dads have no understanding and, like you, have no desire to try and comprehend what forming a box is. Nor do they understand connection or have a desire to learn what it is. Their stuck on what they were taught when they were young and have no desire to learn how it actually is. I feel your that way. You only want to discuss if you agree and insult when you don't.

Tell you what ITS, Explain the box and what it is and explain why its important and then define connection and why its important. Could you do that?

If you don't want to, WELLLLLL, then I rest my case.

If you enjoy the different perspectives then do so. JUST DON'T DO, what it is you say you don't like, INSULT.

Now share with me and us if you will the box and connection. Thanks

Vance,

Your silly cyber question and answer games wont work with me. Same as Bluedog. (And you left out the opening comments to this thread. Again - selective editing.)

I will repeat this - for your benefit.

I believe the site was created - and is maintained - with many objectives. A few really important ones are:

1) To help kids and parents navigate their way through the various youth baseball levels.
2) To discuss - respectfully - different opinions, perspectives and experiences on a large variety of baseball topics.

The site was not created - nor is it maintained - for it to be your (and BlueDog's) forum for denigrating showcase owners, scouts, coaches, parents, players - and just about everyone else that posts on this board.

You have done this from the first day you appeared on this site - as has Bluedog.

Every year - we get a few - like you - that can only make their point by criticizing and denigrating others. In any endeavor - be it baseball, business or anything else - these attempts are doomed to failure.

Most of our 8,000 members just ignore it.
I do not.

If you want to talk baseball - go right ahead.
If you want to denigrate others - or defend those that denigrate others, expect more of the same from me.

Many great hitters want to feel relaxed in the batters box. If you have ever heard George Brett talk, it is something he practiced all the time.........Why??? because as you start your swing tension will build up and you will firm up your grip and muscles as you near contact. The idea is to keep yourself relaxed up until the point that the swing starts. Being tense in the batters box for about 15 seconds before anything starts to happen is unproductive and makes no sense. SO......when you hear a great player talking about staying relaxed, it is about staying relaxed as long as he can before the tension of the swing and the moment arrive.

Same thing with great pitchers.....watch Maddux sometime and see how little tension there is until the moment of truth arrives.

Doug,

Thanks, I've been waiting a long time for someone to say that.

quote:

NY DAD, as you know. Guys have lots of stances/ style. But as they begin to prepare to swing all elite hitters move the body in a north,east,south and west fashion all at the same time to swing. They tilt the body, they pock the butt out more they have lateral movement and they also move down. They load the body. You know they are about to attack. They get to the READY MODE.

Agree completely...loading properly in getting into ideal launch position is essential and this is where the similarities are in big league hitters. However, these same hitters are able to to do this from a wide array of batting stances. Dog mentioned MLB hitters realize stance is a very important part of the hitting process and I'd like to hear more about this as I for the most part have considered stance and stride as being more a matter of personal preference. What are the tangibles in a stance that make it very important? Thanks.

See the ball hit it!!!!

Good advice and point bbscout. I agree.

Will, problem is there are tons of young hitters who are in such a bad stance and setup that they can't do what you say. The better the stance the easier it is to see and the easier it is to hit.

NYDAD, I'm right along with you. Stance is more a style thing. Something big league hitters can do and still get bat to the ball on time. The tangibles of a stance would be to put yourself in a position that requires as little waisted movement as possible. To me there is good movement and bad movement.

quote:

Originally posted by NYdad:

quote:

NY DAD, as you know. Guys have lots of stances/ style. But as they begin to prepare to swing all elite hitters move the body in a north,east,south and west fashion all at the same time to swing. They tilt the body, they pock the butt out more they have lateral movement and they also move down. They load the body. You know they are about to attack. They get to the READY MODE.

Agree completely...loading properly in getting into ideal launch position is essential and this is where the similarities are in big league hitters. However, these same hitters are able to to do this from a wide array of batting stances. Dog mentioned MLB hitters realize stance is a very important part of the hitting process and I'd like to hear more about this as I for the most part have considered stance and stride as being more a matter of personal preference. What are the tangibles in a stance that make it very important? Thanks.

Your stance is very important......a good example would be Barry Bonds and George Brett. Bonds is a pull hitter who stands close to the plate and strides back at the pitcher so that everything in the strike zone can be pulled. Brett excelled at driving balls to lt center and he stood further from the plate and his stride was to a closed poition making it more comfortable for him to drive the ball to lt center. Bonds is high on the HR list and Brett is high on the all time 2B list......their approach is a a good reason why they are on the respective lists of HR and 2B hitters.

The High School kids I have seen the last few years all seem to have no problem with their stance and balance at the plate - initially anyway.

The most prevalent - and obvious thing I see is that many do not load properly - and in some cases - do not load at all. Upper body, shoulders, hands close to stationary.

Just speculation here - but I think it has alot less to do with what they are being taught and alot more to do with the use of aluminum bats.

IMO.

quote:

Just speculation here - but I think it has alot less to do with what they are being taught and alot more to do with the use of aluminum bats.

I disagree...I think a lot of what they are being taught has a lot to do with aluminum bats.

NYDad,

You may be right - but it is difficult to know for sure what the hundreds of coaches in any given area are teaching - let alone the entire state or country for that matter.

I just think that the aluminum bat creates an almost "lazy" approach to hitting - and you can really see the difference when the players put wood in their hand. IMO.

Bbscout, being tense has a connotation that it is not a good thing.....However, me and you will just have to disagree as to what MLB hitters do pertaining to muscle tension in the swing process.....

We both know one must be careful to believe what MLB players say they do, as compared to what they actually do....

And, relaxed in the box can mean one thing to me and something entirely different to you, or someone else....

NYDAD, I agree with you. They are being taught to the aluminum bat. Let the aluminum supply the momentum.

The degree of pre-swing muscle tension would seem to vary based on the individual hitters approach. Guys like Pujlos and Manny who
pre-load shoulders appear to have much greater pre-swing muscle tension/resistance then say someone like Bonds who loads against his stride.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Bbscout, being tense has a connotation that it is not a good thing.....However, me and you will just have to disagree as to what MLB hitters do pertaining to muscle tension in the swing process.....

We both know one must be careful to believe what MLB players say they do, as compared to what they actually do....

And, relaxed in the box can mean one thing to me and something entirely different to you, or someone else....

Actually, what I am careful about is not what major leaguers say they do, but what non major leaguers think that major leaguers do.

If you have ever watched film of George Brett, you would notice that the bigger the moment, the more he would wiggle his fingers on the bat so as not to tense them up too soon.I taped him for 12 straight years and it was very noticeable. When asked about it, he said that he did it to keep the tension from coming in too soon. He said that when the heat was on he wanted to try easier as opposed to the kids who want to try harder in a high stress moment.