The lead question of the 2021 CWS ...

@atlnon posted:

I understand this.  But if the covid emergency didn't happen, it would have progressed much more deliberately through the next stages of human trials, and months (if not several years) to see any long term effect.  And this delivery technology has not been used yet at all for any other medical applications.  The other vaccine (J&J) uses a similar approach of getting the body's cell to create the spike protein, but uses virus vectoring.  This technology has been successfully used already in real world application (for the Ebola vaccine).  The medical industry has had several years to see if there are any unexpected effect.

This may be my ignorance talking, but is it definitive that only the "undesirable" sars-cov-2 virus that has ever, and will ever have the spike protein as the defining characteristics?  Is it definitely impossible that training our body to reject all molecules/antigens with spike based proteins will not have unintended consequence in the future?

To expand on your analogy, if I trained a process to recognize my car using what I thought was a characteristic only unique to my car (i.e. Tag number), I may get burned bec I didn't think that cars from other countries may have the same Tag number and that it turned out to not be unique. If we had tested this process for a couple of years, we may have discovered this and tuned our process to look at the VIN, not just the tag of the vehicle.

I am not saying that we shouldn't have rushed these vaccines or issued emergency authorization.  The benefit definitely outweighs the risk for the high risk population.  The same thing happened with the polio vaccine before. The live attenuated vaccine was a major breakthrough.  It saved a lot of lives.  High risk people should definitely have gotten the vaccine.  However, that vaccine also has more harmful risk compared to the next breakthrough of inactivated vaccine.  If the lower risk people have the privilege and choice of waiting, they could have benefited from the research showing the danger from live vaccine and the new breakthrough of inactivated vaccines.  And if they can afford to wait some more, they could have waited for the production issues to be discovered and fixed (see the Cutter incident).  If my kids are high risk, then I would not have any issue with the decision to have them vaccinated with V1 of the vaccine.

I am not anti-vax.  I am arguing that the risk-benefit calculation may be different for each family/individuals.  We should educate but not pressure and force.

One of the other concerns I have is the focus on vaccines but not as much discussion on natural immunity.  Our whole family got Covid already (which factored into my risk/benefit calculation for my family).  I tried researching the immunity developed from vaccines vs. the natural immunity from recovering from covid.  When I read separate articles talking about these topics, it reads like the end effect is the same (the observed behavior and response of the body).  But when I read articles comparing both, the immunity from vaccine is always highlighted and pumped up, but the natural immunity from recovering from Covid is downplayed and minimized.

Human trials of any new medicine usually last a few years. So yes mRNA vaccines would not have been approved as early as they were had it not been for SARSCOV2.

But a cautious and lengthy trial process to determine the efficacy of a new medicine is different than studying long-term effects. True long term effects of any treatment / intervention are measured in decades. So taking that approach means most people alive today should not get an mRNA vaccine, and we really should only currently be relying on medical interventions that have been around for 50+ years….👀

Everything carries risk.

One of the defining features of mRNA vaccines is how tunable they are. The SARSCOV2 vaccine is highly attuned to its virus, which is part of the reason it’s doing so well against the variants. In the future it might be possible to have vaccine that recognizes more than one specific type of virus at a time, but we aren’t there yet.
To put a fine point on it….todays SARSCOV2 vaccine does not protect against the original SARS virus nor against MERS, nor against any other coronaviruses.

You are making a good point though - future mRNA vaccines will have to be carefully crafted so that they don’t overreach. Fortunately there are only a handful of coronaviruses that infect people right now and new viruses that make us sick don’t come around very often, really only every hundred years or so.

The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are better than natural immunity. They have been proven to cause cellular immunity (ie long term immunity), and because the doses given are consistent (viral load caused by infection can vary greatly) the immune response is highly predictable. There is also some recent evidence that the vaccines are causing an overall stronger immune response than natural infection does.

Where the medical community has done a poor job accounting for natural infection is in determining herd immunity. Most state and local health departments are not accounting for natural infection as they calculate the % of the population still exposed. Some areas are doing this, most are not. And it’s a big error.

@DD 2024 posted:

Human trials of any new medicine usually last a few years. So yes mRNA vaccines would not have been approved as early as they were had it not been for SARSCOV2.

But a cautious and lengthy trial process to determine the efficacy of a new medicine is different than studying long-term effects. True long term effects of any treatment / intervention are measured in decades. So taking that approach means most people alive today should not get an mRNA vaccine, and we really should only currently be relying on medical interventions that have been around for 50+ years….👀

Everything carries risk.

I'm with you on this.  It's a balancing act, and risk/benefit analysis.  As you said, everything carries risk.  The aim is not to have 0 risk.  In this particular situation, there's enough factors with the current crop of covid vaccine that it is a reasonable decision for some people to choose not to vaccinate for now.  I myself am looking forward to the mRNA approach being shown to not have any serious unintended effect in the next year or 2, not only so that I can be comfortable taking an mRNA based vaccine but also for all the other potential for this technology.

At the end of the day, all I am trying to point out is that we should not be too ready to come down on NC State that the didn't force players to be vaccinated, or on the individual player's decision to not get vaccinated.  There are enough valid reasons that is unique to each individual to choose not to (each individual's risk/benefit assessment).

@DD 2024, enjoyed my conversation with you.  I learned more from what you shared regarding the vaccine.  It is so frustrating nowadays to have productive and respectful conversation with people who has different perspective than you.  I thoroughly enjoyed this and appreciate what you shared.  And yes, the lack of attention given to natural immunity is frustrating.  It's even pushing independents like me to wonder if there are some truths to all the government/medical industry vaccine conspiracy theories....

@Prepster posted:

I heard NC State Athletic Director, Boo Corrigan, interviewed on one of the satellite radio stations today. His sole rationale for not having all members of the NC State travel party vaccinated is that it was considered a "personal choice" on the part of the individuals involved. In that one admission, he confirmed what I've believed since this story first hit the press: that this is a COLLOSSAL example of failed leadership by athletics department officials and the NCSU coaching staff.

We're not debating whether or not it makes sense for the general population (regardless of age group) to get vaccinated. Rather, the issue in front of all eight of the CWS participants before arriving in Omaha, especially officials responsible for leading their teams there, was that the NCAA had published protocols for handling vaccinated and unvaccinated participants; and, it was patently clear that unvaccinated individuals were at a distinct disadvantage once they arrived.

One can argue that NC State made a difficult courageous stance by understanding and appreciating that there are valid medical reasons for individuals to choose not to vaccinate due to each individual's risk/benefit assessment.  We are not just talking about making someone wear a mask or maintain social distance but injecting something in their body that have the potential of having unintended consequence (see discussions above).  If this is where they are coming from, then shouldn't they be applauded for valuing the personal health decisions of their players above winning a championship?  They didn't hide this situation, and came forward at once when some of the players became symptomatic.

You said "ineptitude and failure to lead a group of coaches and athletes appropriately into the most important 10 days of their season".  Maybe the other perspective is that they valued the players (and the players family's) health for the next 10 years or more over the short term goal of winning a championship.  We keep stressing in this forum to parents to keep their focus on what's important in life, and it's not all about winning baseball championships.

So checking the unvaxxed players make sense for an outbreak, but not checking the vaxxed players after a confirmed outbreak, with 4 players that were vaxxed still testing positive makes plenty of sense! Still looks like the Vandy's are being protected at all costs to keep the money flowing to the NCAA. Still looks like a screw job no matter which side you are on!

Athletic department officials and coaches couldn't force a player to be vaccinated; but, after explaining the advisability of being inoculated to all prospective participants, they could have made staying behind in Raleigh a consequence of the personal choice to remain unvaccinated. The choice of those who went unvaccinated put their own individual health and the team's prospects of success at risk; a risk that ultimately materialized. Leadership from those expected to lead could have prevented that.

@Prepster posted:

Athletic department officials and coaches couldn't force a player to be vaccinated; but, after explaining the advisability of being inoculated to all prospective participants, they could have made staying behind in Raleigh a consequence of the personal choice to remain unvaccinated. The choice of those who went unvaccinated put their own individual health and the team's prospects of success at risk; a risk that ultimately materialized. Leadership from those expected to lead could have prevented that.

unless it is your pitching staff, or your key people telling you no. Then what are you gonna do? yeah we are here to win but i left my 3 of my top arms and a SS at home because they refused...you aren't winning that way.

Edit - plus they played the entire season knowing this. Nothing changed with the squad, if it was the right choice in March it was still the right choice in June.

What would Vandy have done if Rocker and Leiter told them to pound sand we aren't getting shot just because we made the WS? I am not buying the leadership thing at all, this is way bigger then some college coach's choice. It is actually stunning to me that you would feel that way.

Other comment I know that players are multiple top 10 and top 20 NCAA basketball teams weren't' vaccinated. One of those schools is a recent national title winner. Nobody will argue the Hoops title isn't a hell of a lot more important to every University in the country then the baseball WS, so the leadership thing is just a sinking ship.

@old_school  Vaccination was not available for that age group in most states in time for the tournament. The main difference is the NCAA bubbled the basketball players and tested all of them. Even so, there was a team that was unable to play because of COVID cases.

Same!

Best of luck.

And now back to baseball.

Go Giants!!

I feel sorry for them but I also do not understand not getting vaccinated when you knew the chance you were taking.  As I also heard the interview with NC State AD I loved Mark Packer's comment when they said getting vaccinated was a personal choice, which I agree with, but Packer replied but when you play on a team some times it has to be about what is best for the team rather than what is best for me.  My son really did not want to get vaccinated because he did not see the need for it since he had already been exposed and had it but when he heard that they would not have to get tested if he took it then he gladly did what was best for his team and to make sure there was no chance they would lose their ability to play.  They went into the CWS fully vaccinated.  Life is about choices as we all know but choices have consequences.  I feel bad because some of those players' choices caused their teammates the chance to play for a National Championship.  I wonder about the players who were vaccinated and their thoughts about their teammates that did not get tested and caused them to lose their chance to play.

@PitchingFan posted:

I feel sorry for them but I also do not understand not getting vaccinated when you knew the chance you were taking.  As I also heard the interview with NC State AD I loved Mark Packer's comment when they said getting vaccinated was a personal choice, which I agree with, but Packer replied but when you play on a team some times it has to be about what is best for the team rather than what is best for me.  My son really did not want to get vaccinated because he did not see the need for it since he had already been exposed and had it but when he heard that they would not have to get tested if he took it then he gladly did what was best for his team and to make sure there was no chance they would lose their ability to play.  They went into the CWS fully vaccinated.  Life is about choices as we all know but choices have consequences.  I feel bad because some of those players' choices caused their teammates the chance to play for a National Championship.  I wonder about the players who were vaccinated and their thoughts about their teammates that did not get tested and caused them to lose their chance to play.

Roughly 65/35...just like the rest of the country i would think.

@PitchingFan posted:

I feel sorry for them but I also do not understand not getting vaccinated when you knew the chance you were taking.  As I also heard the interview with NC State AD I loved Mark Packer's comment when they said getting vaccinated was a personal choice, which I agree with, but Packer replied but when you play on a team some times it has to be about what is best for the team rather than what is best for me.  My son really did not want to get vaccinated because he did not see the need for it since he had already been exposed and had it but when he heard that they would not have to get tested if he took it then he gladly did what was best for his team and to make sure there was no chance they would lose their ability to play.  They went into the CWS fully vaccinated.  Life is about choices as we all know but choices have consequences.  I feel bad because some of those players' choices caused their teammates the chance to play for a National Championship.  I wonder about the players who were vaccinated and their thoughts about their teammates that did not get tested and caused them to lose their chance to play.

Wait, you're saying that your son chose to put the welfare of the team above his own?

What a concept.  Good on him.

But a young man or woman doesn't have to be CWS bound to take one for the team.  He or she doesn't even have to be a baseball player, just someone who wants to do what they can to protect their family and community.

Mine took it back in April.  No clue CWS was an option but he just didn't want to be the reason they were shut down.  The NC State team was shut down once or twice in the fall and once in the spring.  It was not like they did not know the consequences.  Again, I feel sorry for them but they made a choice and got the consequences.   I was first upset with NCAA but after hearing the full story they did exactly what they said they would do if there was an outbreak.  Could they have handled PR better?  Absolutely but they did what they said would happen.

I agree with you PF. And I remember they were shut down a few times. Why do you suppose vaccinated players tested positive? Not fully protected?  Took it at the last minute?

What's that old saying,  if you play with fire you get burned.

@TPM posted:

. Why do you suppose vaccinated players tested positive?

Being vaccinated doesn’t mean you cannot contract the virus.  It means that you are exponentially more likely to be asymptomatic if you contract it, much much less likely to have serious illness and thus much less likely to spread it to others.

@3and2Fastball posted:

Being vaccinated doesn’t mean you cannot contract the virus.  It means that you are exponentially more likely to be asymptomatic if you contract it, much much less likely to have serious illness and thus much less likely to spread it to others.

I understand that but curious as to it being 4. While I understand that vaccinated individuals get covid (why we wear masks where I am in many indoor places) and can be asymptomatic, but curious as to if it was something to the Yankee situation or that they only had 1 of 2 shots.

@3and2Fastball posted:

Being vaccinated doesn’t mean you cannot contract the virus.  It means that you are exponentially more likely to be asymptomatic if you contract it, much much less likely to have serious illness and thus much less likely to spread it to others.

So those who are vaccinated don't have to fear it and those who aren't are responsible to themselves...so why was the team eliminated again? to protect the other players who don't care or the other vaccinated players who are protected? this coming from a fully vaccinated individual with a spouse and 2 collage kids all have been vaccinated.

I am not some anti vac'er but this is just stupid.

@JCG posted:

Wait, you're saying that your son chose to put the welfare of the team above his own?

What a concept.  Good on him.

But a young man or woman doesn't have to be CWS bound to take one for the team.  He or she doesn't even have to be a baseball player, just someone who wants to do what they can to protect their family and community.

if the welfare of the team is the critical dynamic to base things off of why ae there 2k names plus in the player portal?

@3and2Fastball posted:

Being vaccinated doesn’t mean you cannot contract the virus.  It means that you are exponentially more likely to be asymptomatic if you contract it, much much less likely to have serious illness and thus much less likely to spread it to others.

You're making a good argument that as long as you are vaccinated you shouldn't worry about those who are not.  I agree with this.

@JCG posted:

Wait, you're saying that your son chose to put the welfare of the team above his own?

What a concept.  Good on him.

But a young man or woman doesn't have to be CWS bound to take one for the team.  He or she doesn't even have to be a baseball player, just someone who wants to do what they can to protect their family and community.

If you have the vaccine, you are good right?  Why do you care if someone else takes it?  You are in charge of your own health. At this point, if you want it, get it.  If you don't, you know the risks.  Quit testing.  If you are sick, go home, that's it.