The Lure of the D-1

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

I know of many young players that insisted on DI and their development and possible baseball future ended at DI. You have to be on the field... In the game. Not very many reach the next level without playing in the games.

PGStaff makes a great point. You can compare numbers about how many kids got drafted out of D1 compared to D3, but I will bet that very few (if any) benchwarmers from the D1 schools were drafted.

One of our travel coaches commented that many guys who get drafted by the top D1 schools will never see time on the field. So make sure that you consider how you fit within the program if you are considering baseball as part of your college decision. Great advice at any level.

Once your out of the top 25. D1 for baseball is pretty overated

quote:

Originally posted by Out in LF:
Why don't you go a little further, investigate how many D1, D2, D3, NAIA and JUCO players actually have success and make it to the bigs. It may open your eyes to what programs actually spend the time teaching the great game from the ones that attract talent just by name only.

Sometimes the best programs and best fit are not the high profile schools. Just sayin.

I am not disagreeing with anyone, nor impugning programs other than D1's. I am just pointing out that kids only want to play at D1's for both rational and irrational reasons. After my son accepted that he might play somewhere other than a D1, he seemed open to the idea that if you are good enough, they will find you anywhere. As to whether the kids drafted ever make it to the show is another matter. I suspect the numbers are minuscule of those in the minors ever reaching the show. However kids don't think in those terms. Heck when I was a player back in the day, I thought I might be pro material, but reality sets in pretty quick when you consider the competition and the work/time one must dedicate to achieving that potential.

Many people fervently believe there is much overlap in quality among the divisions and assert that the top D2/D3/NAIA schools can compete with all but the elite D1's.

Many of the same people recommend playing below D1 in order to increase the likelihood of playing time.

There is a possible contradiction here. The more broadly people believe the first statement applies, the more narrowly they should recommend the second.


As it happens, D1 baseball schools play about 200 games a year against lower division schools, nearly all of them D2. Here's what happened in those inter-division games last year:

Overall, D1 schools went 163-32 against lower division schools, an .835 winning percentage.

D1 teams in the top 40 RPI went 6-0 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 41 and 140 went 28-2 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 141 and 200 went 30-5 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 201 and 220 went 17-2 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 221 and 240 went 11-1 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 241 and 260 went 24-6 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 261 and 280 went 24-9 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 281 and 300 went 23-7 against lower division schools.

I counted these manually, so I might be one or two off here and there, but the overall picture is pretty clear.
No D1 school with an RPI better than 118 lost to a lower division school. D1 teams in the top 200 RPI won 90% of their games against lower division schools. Weaker D1 schools are more likely to schedule lower division opponents, and they win 75% of these games.

I would not recommend drawing detailed conclusions from such undigested information that doesn't consider potentially important variables like the strength of the lower division schools involved in these games. However, at the least, these numbers do not support the theory that a vast level plain encompassing all divisions and classifications lies spread beneath the shadow of the mountain on which the top 25 or 50 D1 schools play. At first glance, it looks like D1 status makes a difference.

quote:

Once your out of the top 25. D1 for baseball is pretty overated

I can't agree with that. First of all, the top 25 changes every year. There are many more than 25 great DI programs.

I do think that sometimes the other divisions are slighted. However, most DI programs are very good. I actually think there are many DI programs that are "underrated".

That said, IMO, the number 1 reason that any program is good... is The Coach! I firmly believe that the best coaches win and develop players where ever they go. I know that all the great coaches are not at top 25 type programs or even coaching at the DI level.

LF:

On 9/26/11 there are only 9 current Major Leaguers from DIII:

Wheaton (Mass.) outfielder Chris Denorfia, Padres
St. Joseph’s (Maine) pitcher Charlie Furbush, Mariners
Messiah outfielder Chris Heisey, Reds
Centenary pitcher Cole Kimball, Nationals
Stony Brook (then-D3) pitcher Joe Nathan, Twins
Linfield pitcher Joe Paterson, Diamondbacks
Alvernia catcher Anthony Recker, Athletics
UW-La Crosse outfielder Vinny Rottino, Marlins
UW-Stevens Point pitcher Jordan Zimmermann, Nationals

Canada has 14, Australia 21 and Panama has 10. So your chances of becoming a MLB player are higher being from those countries than it is playing DIII ball.

We love the notion of the overlooked, small time player working hard and overcoming the odds. The reality is that when kids are 18 if they don't go straight to pro ball the colleges are sorting through them and guaging long term potential pretty well. There are always exceptions to everything but in this case it is pretty rare.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Many people fervently believe there is much overlap in quality among the divisions and assert that the top D2/D3/NAIA schools can compete with all but the elite D1's.

Many of the same people recommend playing below D1 in order to increase the likelihood of playing time.

There is a possible contradiction here. The more broadly people believe the first statement applies, the more narrowly they should recommend the second.


As it happens, D1 baseball schools play about 200 games a year against lower division schools, nearly all of them D2. Here's what happened in those inter-division games last year:

Overall, D1 schools went 163-32 against lower division schools, an .835 winning percentage.

D1 teams in the top 40 RPI went 6-0 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 41 and 140 went 28-2 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 141 and 200 went 30-5 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 201 and 220 went 17-2 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 221 and 240 went 11-1 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 241 and 260 went 24-6 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 261 and 280 went 24-9 against lower division schools.
D1 teams with RPI between 281 and 300 went 23-7 against lower division schools.

I counted these manually, so I might be one or two off here and there, but the overall picture is pretty clear.
No D1 school with an RPI better than 118 lost to a lower division school. D1 teams in the top 200 RPI won 90% of their games against lower division schools. Weaker D1 schools are more likely to schedule lower division opponents, and they win 75% of these games.

I would not recommend drawing detailed conclusions from such undigested information that doesn't consider potentially important variables like the strength of the lower division schools involved in these games. However, at the least, these numbers do not support the theory that a vast level plain encompassing all divisions and classifications lies spread beneath the shadow of the mountain on which the top 25 or 50 D1 schools play. At first glance, it looks like D1 status makes a difference.

Thanks for taking the time to make the compilation and post it.
I would have assumed the D1's would have a winning %, but not to that degree. Furthermore when comparing lower D1's against D2's, I would have thought the winning % would have been lower. I do know that some top D2's could give some D1's a run for their money, but overall it looks as if most D1's are at an advantage skill wise.

quote:

Many people fervently believe there is much overlap in quality among the divisions and assert that the top D2/D3/NAIA schools can compete with all but the elite D1's.

Those are overwhelming stats.
Certainly, if many people have such a belief, it just isn't correct.
Especially, at the D3 level, as Fungo noted when he started this thread, as Hawk 19 summarized, and has been posted many times on this site, there just is not and cannot be the depth of quality talent.
Since they don't offer athletic scholarships, it would take an amazing D3 coaching staff or perhaps an equally "less than amazing" D1 coaching staff to overcome the depth of talent and overall quality of talent issues, on a competitive basis.
Separating the issue of D3 being competitive with DI, there is the different aspect that there is a very good layer of baseball talent at the D3 level, usually at the top levels of D3 who are able to compete at the D1 level, to succeed at the D1 level, and to have the talent, skill and projection to be part of the MLB draft.
There are probably even more very fine/top caliber coaches at the D3 level who coach at that level by choice, by passion and through a full appreciation of the D3 and D1 difference.
Even with these features, these players, with a few exceptions for pitchers, are not going to be "projected" in the draft in a manner similar to those competing at a top level DI/Cape league.
We have seen that with our son in Summer leagues where he was 2nd in the NECBL in hitting, played at least as well as an All SEC short stop from Georgia who played alongside him, and far better than a freshman All-American shortstop from Fullerton...and got no mention as a "prospect" by those who make such judgements, while the other two were both in the top 15 from that league.
One can also see this with Cape rosters. No matter how hard a D3 coach might try, it is extremely challenging to get even the best D3 players into the Cape.
To my way of reading within this thread, the "Lure" of "DI," as Fungo presents the terms, does create intriguing and interesting perspectives.
Fungo felt the "the Lure of DI" was "insignificant" and should not cloud the process of choosing the right "fit" for college and college baseball. I agree with him.
As a reference point, Fungo's son played in the SEC at Auburn and our son played D3 in Texas, yet they ended up on the same team in Milb in 2006.
We can look at this in the rear view mirror recognizing different routes in college baseball can lead to the same future location.
For anyone who questions, let me say in advance my views are from the rear view mirror. Before that journey started, like so many, the "lure" sure seemed important.

quote:

Originally posted by Out in LF:
Why don't you go a little further, investigate how many D1, D2, D3, NAIA and JUCO players actually have success and make it to the bigs. It may open your eyes to what programs actually spend the time teaching the great game from the ones that attract talent just by name only.

This is an interesting topic, and I had a little time today, so I did a little research.

First, as a measure of MLB success (probably too stringent a measure), I looked at players who sometime in the last 25 years of HoF voting received at least 20% of the vote, whether they were drafted or signed as an amateur free agent, and in each case whether they signed out of high school or college, and if out of college, whether they played at a Division I school (or what would have been considered "Division I" - the old "University Divsion").

There were 70 such players, and the list basically encompasses every recent HoF inductee, and just about every non-inductee about whom fans still clamor for induction or find their way onto lists of "The Best Players Not in the Hall of Fame." Half of those players were drafted, and half were signed as amateur free agents, many before the draft as we know it was instituted, and some - as foreigners - who still today would not be subject to the draft.

14 of those 70 (Jack Morris (in the 5th round), Jeff Bagwell (4th), Barry Larkin (1st), Andre Dawson (11th), Mark McGwire (1st), Tony Gwynn (3rd), Steve Garvey (1st), Paul Molitor (1st), Ozzie Smith (4th), Dave Winfield (1st), Kirby Puckett (1st), Carlton Fisk (1st), Mike Schmidt (2nd), and Reggie Jackson (1st)) were drafted out of college, in rounds ranging from the 1st (8) to the 11th (average round drafted: 2.6). All but onewent to Division I schools (Ozzie Smith went to Cal State Polytechnic, a Division II school), but by no means were they all powerhouse Division I programs or conferences.

Another 6 were signed as amateur free agents but were signed out of colleges (Jim Kaat, Tom Seaver, Jim Bunning, Harvey Kuehn, Carl Yastrzemski, and Lew Burdette). All of these players attended a Division I school except one - Jim Kaat attended Hope College in Michigan, a Division III program!

Interestingly, 21 players of the 70 were drafted and signed out of HS, and there was far more variation in draft position (1st - 3: Rice, Murphy, Yount; 2nd - 5: Lee Smith, Trammell, Ripken, Brett, Bench; 3rd - 4: Blyleven, Eckersley, Murray, Gary Carter; 4th - 1: Rickey Henderson; 5th - 1: Tim Raines; 7th - 1: Wade Boggs; 9th - 2: Fred McGriff, Goose Gossage; 12th - 1: Nolan Ryan; 14th - 1: Dave Parker; 19th - 1: Don Mattingly; 20th - 1: Ryne Sandberg), with the average draft position of HS players on this list being 5.9. The average draft position of all drafted players, college and HS, was 4.6. Even at this thinnest and most stringent measurement of MLB "success," this speaks to how much development happens after a player is drafted; it isn't just the studs at the big programs, or just the first and second rounders.

While all this is interesting, it really is a thin slice. There are some other ways to look at what programs are sending a lot of players to the Majors. Baseball-Reference.com has a page that lists all schools by state, with the number of MLB players produced in parentheses. You can compare that to a sortable list of schools by division and come pretty close to what Out in LF was suggesting.

This is by no means exhastive, but I looked for Division II and Divsion III schools that had produced at least 5 MLB players, and the list is pretty long - at least 32 Division II schools from at least 19 different states, and at least 38 Division II schools from at least 18 different states (this is by no means exhaustive, and I certainly will have made a few errors in categorization):

AL: University of North Alabama (II)
AZ: Grand Canyon University (II)
CA: Azusa Pacific (II), Occidental (III), University of La Verne (III), Whittier (III), Chapman University (III)
CT: University of New Haven (II)
FL: Florida Southern (II), Rollins College (II), University of Tampa (II), St. Leo (II)
GA: Ogelthorpe University (III)
ID: Lewis-Clark State College (NAIA)
IL: Lewis University (II), Illinois Wesleyan (III), Milliken University (III), University of Chicago (III)
IN: Wabash (III)
KS: Washburn University of Topeka (II)
MA: Tufts (III), Amherst (III), Williams (III), Springfield (III)
MD: Washington College (II), Mt. St. Mary's College (II)
MO: Washington University (III), Truman State (II)
MN: St. Cloud University (II), University of St. Thomas (III)
MS: Mississippi College (III), Delta State University (II)
NC: Catawba (II), Lenoir-Rhyne (II), Guilford College (III)
NH: St. Anselm (II)
NJ: Montclair (III)
NY: Le Moyne College (II) Concordia (II), NYU (III), St. Lawrence (III)
OH: Case Western (III), Ohio Wesleyan (III)
OK: Southeastern Oklahoma State (II), East Central Oklahoma (II)
PA: Indiana University of Pennsylvannia (II), Mansfield University of Pennsylvannia (II), West Chester University of Pennsylvannia (II), Albright (III), Gettysburg College (III), Grove City College (III), Juniata (III), Lebanon Valley College (III), Swarthmore (III), Washington & Jefferson College (III)
SC: Erskine College (II), University of South Carolina-Aiken (II)
TN: Union University (II), Maryville College (III), Rhodes College (III)
TX: Dallas Baptist University (II), St. Edwards University (II), St. Mary's University (II), Southwestern University (III), Trinity University (III)
VA: Washington & Lee (III)
WI: Beloit (III), University of Wisconsin-La Crosse (III), University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh (III)

There are lots of schools with 4 or 3 MLB alums, and there is nothing magical about the cut-off I used of 5 MLB players produced. I also made no attempt to look at how recently those schools were producing MLB alums, and it might be as useful (or more) to know which of these schools was producing the most draft picks. I don't have time to do that, and am not really sure how to go about figuring it out anyway, but I'd bet the info is out there somewhere.

I did find this interesting article in The Hardball Times, entitled "How Good is NCAA Division II?" It tries to break it down statistically. The basic point is that the best Division II squads could compete favorably with the average Divison I teams. It's more in-depth than that, but that's the main thrust of it.

Interesting. To me, at least. :-)

Also, following up on Swampboy's compilation of results of Division I vs Division II play, one thing the Hardball Times article I linked to above points out is that non-conference play for Division II is generally mid-week. The depth of starting pitching in the two divisions is quite different, and can pretty quickly skew the numbers toward Division I. It is almost like trying to measure the quality of a MLB team when they are only allowed to use their $4 or #5 starters. The numbers therefore paint a much starker picture of differences in quality and level of play than may actually exist.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

We have seen that with our son in Summer leagues where he was 2nd in the NECBL in hitting, played at least as well as an All SEC short stop from Georgia who played alongside him, and far better than a freshman All-American shortstop from Fullerton...and got no mention as a "prospect" by those who make such judgements, while the other two were both in the top 15 from that league.


One can also see this with Cape rosters. No matter how hard a D3 coach might try, it is extremely challenging to get even the best D3 players into the Cape.

I find that very interesting. You are basically saying the other two kids were getting higher recognition than your son even though he played just as well, if not better than they did. That combined with your observation on the difficulty of D3 coaches getting their best players into the Cape league seems to indicate that generally D1's have more access and respect, whether it is deserved or not.

I am trying to be very precise.
I didn't say they got higher recognition.
My post talked about those who make projections. That would suggest a magazine which sells subscriptions.
Our son was voted to the All Star game and post season All Stars by the GM's and Managers. The Fullerton and SEC players were not.
In a way, this is easy if we look at it from the perspective of the Cape or a magazine or Fungo's post.
BA, for instance will run days of articles on the draft and on the college baseball season. At the very end of each, there might be 10 lines about D3.
Magazines are not going to be sold if the discussions were similar to some of the themes in this thread.
Would there be a "lure of DI" if BA didn't exist, ESPN didn't have the CWS and regionals/super-regionals on TV? If the "lure" is a media creation, it is unlikely the branding is to be diluted toward D3 baseball or its players.
Quite clearly, however, the teams in the super-regionals and Omaha deserve to be there. There isn't a single team in Appleton which can play the game and compete for a college season at the levels of those players/schools/programs. They play the game at a level of skill and quality which does not exist in d3 baseball even at the very top.

quote:

We have seen that with our son in Summer leagues where he was 2nd in the NECBL in hitting, played at least as well as an All SEC short stop from Georgia who played alongside him, and far better than a freshman All-American shortstop from Fullerton...and got no mention as a "prospect" by those who make such judgements, while the other two were both in the top 15 from that league.

That happens to D1 guys to

Thanks for bumping this. Great discussion. There are several sides to The Lure in my opinion. The stepping stone to the MLB, the ego "want the best" factor and the financial side that no one has seemed to touch on in the thread.

As Mood Jr and we (mom and dad) march through this recruiting process, that DI tag has caused much frustration, hand wringing, head scratching and downright anger at times. Maybe when he was 14 we still had the dream in the back of our minds that he was MLB potential. As we proceeded through local travel to the national travel scene and ultimately to Jupiter last week it became pretty clear that the quantity of outstanding talent out there is staggering. Based on the fence of fame as you walked into Jupiter you're probably looking at
what....5-10 players of 1500 at Jupiter yearly making it to the MLB? And those 1500 are already considered cream of the crop.

So our perspective of the DI Lure really never has related to the next level beyond college. When we realized our son had the goods to play college ball we made the move from our local summer team to a more elite travel team. An hour into the first tryout that team director put the DI label on him and sold us the whole deal that with all his contacts he'd have a great DI offer, etc, etc.....

Long story short, here we are a week shy of NLI time and we've heard all kinds of good things said by DI's about Patrick and several telling him to wait until spring. But no offers. Our frustration really has nothing to do with the number that follows the D- It comes from the fact that we swallowed the Lure of DI and spent a hell of a lot of money up front believing it would be offset by scholarship money down the road. Even a 25-50% offer at one of the in state DI's would make covering his college very manageable. It appears it's not in the cards.

On the flip side, Patrick has a nice DIII that he fell in love with and that wants him very much. It reminds me of one of the stories related here about a kid who had lots of interest at all levels but one DIII coach followed up with him every Sunday night and that's who he chose and it was the best decision he ever made. This college appears to be the absolute perfect fit. Jr. knows he's going to play as soon as he's there. He's going to get the chance to keep being a two way player, he loves the campus, the academics are a great match and during our visit he built friendship with the current players. The only downside is the cost. Somehow we'll make it work. I just wish we had all that elite travel ball money that we spent chasing that DI Lure back.

quote:

Originally posted by mood for baseball:
Thanks for bumping this. Great discussion. There are several sides to The Lure in my opinion. The stepping stone to the MLB, the ego "want the best" factor and the financial side that no one has seemed to touch on in the thread.

As Mood Jr and we (mom and dad) march through this recruiting process, that DI tag has caused much frustration, hand wringing, head scratching and downright anger at times. Maybe when he was 14 we still had the dream in the back of our minds that he was MLB potential. As we proceeded through local travel to the national travel scene and ultimately to Jupiter last week it became pretty clear that the quantity of outstanding talent out there is staggering. Based on the fence of fame as you walked into Jupiter you're probably looking at
what....5-10 players of 1500 at Jupiter yearly making it to the MLB? And those 1500 are already considered cream of the crop.

So our perspective of the DI Lure really never has related to the next level beyond college. When we realized our son had the goods to play college ball we made the move from our local summer team to a more elite travel team. An hour into the first tryout that team director put the DI label on him and sold us the whole deal that with all his contacts he'd have a great DI offer, etc, etc.....

Long story short, here we are a week shy of NLI time and we've heard all kinds of good things said by DI's about Patrick and several telling him to wait until spring. But no offers. Our frustration really has nothing to do with the number that follows the D- It comes from the fact that we swallowed the Lure of DI and spent a hell of a lot of money up front believing it would be offset by scholarship money down the road. Even a 25-50% offer at one of the in state DI's would make covering his college very manageable. It appears it's not in the cards.

On the flip side, Patrick has a nice DIII that he fell in love with and that wants him very much. It reminds me of one of the stories related here about a kid who had lots of interest at all levels but one DIII coach followed up with him every Sunday night and that's who he chose and it was the best decision he ever made. This college appears to be the absolute perfect fit. Jr. knows he's going to play as soon as he's there. He's going to get the chance to keep being a two way player, he loves the campus, the academics are a great match and during our visit he built friendship with the current players. The only downside is the cost. Somehow we'll make it work. I just wish we had all that elite travel ball money that we spent chasing that DI Lure back.

Mood, you have a PM.

Once again, college baseball is a great experience for everyone that gets the opportunity at any level.

That said, there are very good and valid reasons for the "lure" of DI. If you ask any young player where he wants to go to college and play baseball he is most likely to mention a DI college. If you ask him to make out a list of his top choices, you're likely to see he mentioned all DI colleges. That is because most players want to compete at the highest possible level. Every player if given the choice will choose Major League Baseball over Minor League Baseball. Yet we all know Minor League Baseball is great!

It's only reality that changes the mind.

Truth is that many outstanding players end up at non DI colleges. Sometimes it is based on the fact that they actually got a better financial offer from the non DI. Sometimes it is because of academic reasons. But seldom does anyone go to a DIII because they believe the baseball is as good. And yes, for most it is much better to be playing the games at DIII rather than watching them at DI.

Also, it might be discouraging when no real offers are extended during the early signing period, but that doesn't mean there will not be a DI offer later. I know everything happens earlier these days regarding recruiting, but there are still many players signing with DI colleges later on.

Playing high level club baseball only provides the stage for players to be seen by decision makers. By no means does it guarantee the DIs will make an offer. No matter what the travel organization might think about a players potential, it still boils down to what the decision makers think. (right or wrong) And all the decision makers make mistakes at times.

Very timely discussion in that my Son just transferred from a mid-major(top 50)D-1 to a D-2.

He played in 69 games and had 24 starts in his first 2 years at the D-1 school, but barring injury, was not going to start full-time over the 3 OF's they had. All 3 were Juniors last year and 2 were drafted and the other was all-conference.

He transferred to a very good academic D-2 with a good baseball program in a good conference.

So far, here are some of our observations:

-the D-2 has at least 4 players who would probably start or compete for playing time at his former school.
-Overall, the pitching is much deeper at the D-1, but the top 2 pitchers at his current school would probably be mid-week starters at the D-1.
-facilities much nicer at D-1
-Communication and organization is much better at the D-2. Daily emails that outline the practice schedules, work-outs, motivational messages, etc.
-more emphasis on academics. My Son had a 3.2 at his previous school, but was still required to attend study hall. Result-all A's at mid-term.
-Coaching is much better at his D-2. To clarify that, I mean that the coaches spend more time on fundamentals, conditioning and talent development than they did at the D-1.

He has a pretty good arm as an OF, so halfway through the Fall season, the Coach asked him if he wanted to try pitching, as they can use all of the arms they can get with weekend double-headers.
He hadn't pitched since High School, but they had him throwing 91 after 2 weeks of working with him.
Not sure that he'll amount to anything as a pitcher, but he would not have gotten that opportunity at the D-1.

And the best part of all of this is that he is as happy as I've ever seen him!

I would have been okay with him being a part-timer at the D-1, and maybe start his Senior year.
But, then he would have missed the opportunity he now has.

A few weeks ago, I asked him;

"Are you disappointed that you aren't playing D-1?"

His reply;

"I already did!"

Git,

What an awesome response from your son! I love it.


PG,

Wise words as usual. We do realize that the early signing period is not the be all end all. I had a great conversation with the Kent State coach during CABA about just that and he certainly made me rest a little easier. In our case, however, Mood Jr is heading into basketball season starting Monday. Once that starts it's detrimental for him to do any baseball showcasing before spring as his baseball numbers just aren't there as we found out last winter. And selfishly we just want this to be done so he can enjoy his final high school sports season this spring.

Regarding the travel ball, while it is certainly up to the players to show what they have it certainly doesn't hurt to have the travel coach/director contacting colleges. I watched in envy as other coaches struck up conversations with the college scouts during the WWBA 17s in East Cobb and again down in Jupiter. As with many things often times it's who you know or should I say who knows who.

at times our kids surprise us with their innate wisdom
my guy went division one with division two scholarship offers on the table
when asked why the choice his answer was short and to the point--- I want to prove that I can play division one===I can always come back to division two---they are holding my scholarshp


he never came back

Mood for baseball,

The post you made was good.I might just add dont be upset about son not getting an early NLI.Most dont.

The showcases are fine, but dont go with just the mindset of getting a scolly.Maybe dnt go to so many.

Somethings you said I want to address.Yes many times it is who you know, connections.It isnt always fair.Many old timers on here all have stories of unfairness, politics, things not going their sons way, being overlooked, being missed on lists. etc, it goes on and on.

In the long scheme of things it doesnt matter what anyone thinks but your son.Your son is the only one who has control of his work ethic, his studies etc.

Talent is transprent in the UPPER high tier guy.Talent is sometimes overlooked with the next tier.

Nothing you can do about that.hey Ian Kensler left AZ state because Pedroia was better than him in the eyes of the coaches.Kinsler left for Missouri.Andre was cut from AZ state and told he may never be D1 baseball player.he went to a JC.

Dont let the naysayers dictate the future.Dont give them that much control.Your son needs to work hard, hard in the classroom, hard in the weight room, and hard on the field.

And if he is lucky enought o walk on ANY college campsus and get a chance to play be grateful.

It doesnt matter in the long run.What matters is what kind of man you are raising.I read something that struck me the other day.

All this time our sons spent preparing for baseball, and little did we know that the entire time baseball was preparing them for life.

I of all people understand your worry,and anticipated stress if some BIG school wants your son.I am saying dont give them that much control.Find a good school where your son will be happy, where he will grow as a man, as a human being.Where he will make friends, where he feels comfortable.

The percent of any of our kids making it to the BIGS is staggering not in their favor.So choose a college where they can play baseball and have fun.

For me my BIG high right now.My son is a senior who will graduate in four years from a very good school.Good student but this school has been very challenging and to get out in four years is huge for an athlete.Anyway he has a big upperdivision project, he is the PROJECT LEADER,I capitilize that because I never would have dreamed 4 years ago that he would take on a role like that,He said to me "MOM,I may be looking for my first job next summer" .

That is the little stuff that ends up being the big stuff.The growth and maturity you watch your sons go through.

Work ethic again is all he can control, dont let the (ones who arent giving your son the tme of day) this much control.Enjoy the moment, his senior year.Dont stress over the D1.There is a lot more to life than that, and there is a lot more to your son than baseball.

Fan.

I couldn't agree more and second the from FF

I was afraid my post was going to come across as a grumpy dad. That couldn't be further from the truth. As it's been said myriad times on this site....it's really all about finding the best fit and our sons getting the chance to play at the next level and get their education at the same time.

I subscribe to the "everything happens for a reason" mindset and I feel that things have fallen into place as maybe they are meant to be. We went on the visit to this school treating it like a practice visit before others came along. Well Mood Jr. fell head over heels for every aspect of the school....campus, curriculum, potential teammates and especially the coaches and baseball program. What more can we ask for? Well....money helps but there will be academic aid and we'll figure out the rest. It's all good.

I posted here just to include that one of the big lures to DI is the scholarship potential. I think it's a huge lure especially up here in the midwest where the majority of the kids aren't posturing for the premier programs or looking to play pro.

Now I just gotta figure out how to look good in purple ??

Yes the money helps from a scholarship.My son would not be where he was without it.

Getting into debt is tough.Especially with the economy.My own had a D3 he was heading to and last minute went to a JC.I didnt like it at the time.Financially it saved us 120,000 dollars that the d3 would of cost at say 30,000 a year.Probably now its more like 40-50,000.My own sons school is 58,000 ths year.

Tough decisions to make, I dont envy anyones position having to make it.

People seem to do it every year.You son can borrow some money as well.

Your post was fine, and nothing wrong with it,nothing many of us didnt struggle with at one time or another.

I was just trying to help you understand that many kids dont get the BIG NLI or get recruited by bigtime schools.

Junior college was a route my son took to open up more possibilites.It worked for him and others.Financially many parents dont have any other option.


Every family is so unique and different.

Just being almost done,I just would like to see parents enjoy it, and not stress over what they have no control over.

Best of luck to your son.Enjoy every minute.

fanofgame,

Excellent post, I especially like you mentioning... "where he feels comfortable". I know you were speaking in terms of overall development and of course that is most important. However, that is also one of the most important things in him becoming the best baseball player he can be.

mood for baseball,

I don't think you come across as a grumpy dad. I just think that someday you might be glad that you spent all that money having your son play on a high level team. He has experienced things that the vast majority of kids will never know or understand.

I know some club team coaches do a better job than others when it comes to promoting the players. Some do have more contacts than others.

Also, regarding the scholarship... There are DII and NAIA colleges that will make financial offers that are much better than most DI schools. Junior Colleges can be by far the most affordable. Even many non scholarship schools can find money if they want a player bad enough.

So, I do think the scholarship is part of the attraction or lure... I truly believe the biggest lure is simply to play in the Big Leagues. In college the Big Leagues is DI.

It's not an individual thing, a pitcher who throws mid 90s is a mid 90s pitcher where ever he is at. DI is perceived as being the best level of athletics so that includes baseball. It is normal for young kids to want the "best". The better the program the more young kids want to be there.

I spent several years coaching at the small college level. Most enjoyable time of my life. We actually had some players that were much better than most DI players including a couple that played in the Major Leagues. When I left there a couple kids transfered to DI schools and had great careers there. Even though I've mentioned the reasons for the DI lure, baseball is baseball and nothing is better than enjoying the team you are on!

DI is the highest level but players are players. Some never learn at the highest level that there is a big difference between those that "play baseball" and those that are "baseball players". True baseball players exist at every level, many of them end up going into coaching. To me it is the highest praise in baseball I can give a kid. Top prospects take a back seat to real baseball players. Of course, top prospects can also be real baseball players.

What is the difference between those who play and those who are players? That is another topic.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:I just think that someday you might be glad that you spent all that money having your son play on a high level team. He has experienced things that the vast majority of kids will never know or understand.

Amen to this PG and your group is a big part of that. Jupiter ranks up there with the trip to the final four in basketball. Not quite there but pretty close.....and the weather in Florida was much nicer than Peoria in March.

PG,

Thanks, What would you consider Billy Beane? I find him facinating.Had all the tools but didnt really like to play the game,yet he loves the game.Struggled with the mental part of competing from what I have garnered from the reading of money ball.He always wanted to go to school, was smart.

Lots of players with tools that cant play the game.

My son enjoyed East Cobb.I remeber him calling me one night after a game.I said where did you play today, he said at a highschool.I was like all this money to play at a HS.He said oh mom, these aren't regular HS fields they are incredible.Then when I saw the pictures I was amazed at the facilities.
He was 16 and played with the 18u.he had a great tournament.Hit really well. No letters or any notice except his own coach.BUT that was when he realized he could hit the better pitching, and that he could compete.That was a turning point for his confidence in himself as a player.

Thats why I mentioned that the showcases arent just for scholarships.They can help you see where you fit in the scheme of things,or how hard you need to work to compete.

fanofgame,

IMO, real baseball players absolutely love playing the game. It's not necessary to have the greatest tools.

I actually think that the most naturally talented kids are sometimes less likely to become a real player. Everything is too easy!

I should add... There's nothing wrong with those that don't become "real" players. The world is full of very successful people who just played the game or for that matter never played the game.

In my simple little world... I admire "real" baseball players! I like dirt!

quote:

In my simple little world... I admire "real" baseball players! I like dirt!

Me too!!!

Fan, you hit a home run on that post! Our son went the JC route, all the D1 schools were just window shopping. As it turned out, the JC he went to was the best experience he ever had. I don't think the D1 he is at will ever measure up to the JC in terms of reward or having a good time, enjoying being on the team. So many of his JC teammates were D1 transfers, I think that speaks for itself. The ones who stay with the D1s were the blue chippers to start with, their destiny was already laid out for them. But the best thing of all is no tuition, no loans all paid for by his baseball.

Fan is spot on about those you have no control over, work hard and have a good time, have friends for life.