Theory hitting vs. Practical hitting

Is this popping up caused by hitting the bottom of the ball or an extreme upper-cut swing?

I can't see how a swing can be initiated without the 'hands dropping' to get the bat down into the zone or to the desired contact point.

There are many theories concerning hitting but only one high quality swing.

The great majority of swings being taught are flawed beyond reason. They have the hands dragging the bat through the zone side ways before bringing the bat forward. By this time, the hands are about even with the front hip or front foot as the bat head is entering the hitting zone.

The classic swing would have the batter attempting to make contact directly in front of his body. (Swing to your belly button) This is where the old expression comes from to 'watch the bat hit the ball'.

Contact is in a good line of sight. The swing is compact. The swing rides through the hitting zone for the greatest duration.

There are other fine points that apply to each individual such as a more closed or open stance.

The sequence is in my opinion

1) Develop stance establishing greatest potential energy

2) Power the bat down short to the zone and contact point.

3) Allow the hands to follow through.

This method helps to establish good contact when swinging and helps eliminate strike outs.

quote:

I can't see how a swing can be initiated without the 'hands dropping' to get the bat down into the zone or to the desired contact point.

Quincy I'm talking more along the lines of on the stride / trigger the hands go from a nice natural position up around the shoulder area to dropping down to an area just below the chest. All this movement is done before the batter starts the swing to release all the power in the swing. Basically his hands take an "L" shaped path to the ball.

What you're talking about is what I call driving the hands to the zone to hit. I don't want to take the chance of using the word drop to describe these two motions - the L shape on stride / trigger and the bringing the hands down to the hitting zone - in case they may associate the L shape as being good. I like saying drive because it gives the impression of generating power rather than getting through the zone.

Probably a little nitpicky in wording but none of my players have ever had a problem with it once they understood the two concepts of hand movement - one being bad and the other being good.

Hitting is very very difficult to talk about on a website---what is needed is visual and actual with a player--every player is different -- for me the best way is one on one with the instructor on the field or in the cage--I actually like live BP on the field so every pitch is different interms of location and movement

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I actually like live BP on the field so every pitch is different in terms of location and movement

I like it all. When I first see a kid I like tee work and soft toss so it's easier to isolate different areas. I think live BP (with a pitcher who can locate, hopefully) is the most beneficial overall.

While both approaches can be effective, the 'L' swing is later to the zone and only allows contact in front of the plate.

If you look at video or photos of hand position as the bat head comes forward, you can see what I'm saying.

The classic swing brings the bat down to waist level most often since that is where the average pitch would be located. It also allows the continuation down on a low pitch. Or if a higher pitch, the bat is still flexible enough to swat the ball to the outfield.

I prefer BP on the field also. You get instant feed back as to where the ball is traveling as compared to the 'feel' of good contact in the cage.

Coach2709,

The drop you speak of with the player popping up...not talking about a hitch with the hands during the stride that doesn't come back up early enough but rather a kid that drops his hands straight down while loading if I read you right. And if I'm still reading right, you don't want the kids to think of an "L shape" in the swing or handpath.

The broom drill does work with kids whose handpath is wrong and gives quick feedback when they are wrong or right.

****While I personally never liked a hitch in the swing,there have been alot of really great MLB hitters with a hitch. The key with all was when they started and finished the hitch.

While field BP is best, can really be hard in HS when you have Fr/JV/V squads to get time. We have to really stagger practice start times to get adequate fielld time. Varsity wins when push comes to shove. With the rain we've had, cage BP has had to suffice alot.

I'm like TRhit on this, web discussions on hitting without video is tough. Even with video everybody tends to have certain keys they look for; sometimmes everybody understands and sometimes everybody goes ??????

Quincy touched on what I consider to be a very important point.....And, nobody even gave him a mention for saying it....

Quincy, I noticed and I agree with you that the hands must drop in the swing....I do not consider that a swing flaw....I don't even look for what many call flaws in the swing....

I look at the sequencing of the body....How, and just as importantly, when do the body movements produce torque in the hips and hands.....Stretch can be substituted for the word, torque, if you wish....

How and when torque is produced also allows the body to hold the stretch by keeping the back hip and hands "loaded", as many call it....

Bluedog,

I like it...keep going. It's a good start.

Last sentence...not bad but I know you've got more to say than that. Let'r rip.

Coach2709, drills can help hitters to hit better....I'm not saying you were wrong....You are right....

Here's what I'm saying about drills....They are a quick fix, or a band-aid approach, to helping a player swing a bat better....

My agenda in teaching a player how to swing a bat is to get them as close to their potential as I possibly can, not just to get them better.....

So, High School Coaches are scrambling to get their players to hit better on a limited time basis....And, they're working with a team of players pretty much all at one time....

I'm working with a single player at a time and have as much time as I need....

Now, perhaps you need drills to coach your players....I don't....

My point in all this is that I don't understand it when Coaches come on here and bash me, saying things like you did on the other thread....This is a hitting thread and hitting is my interest....I don't make it a point to post on the Coach's thread about defense and other points of the game I don't really have a big interest in....

I understand why TRhit does this sort of stuff....His life goal is to follow me around and bash me....This stems from stuff a long time ago on here....I'm OK with it....And, it makes him happy.....

If I can help a player get some playing time because he can outhit his teammates because of something I taught him, he has learned baseball and life lessons, has he not?

Look, I quit trying to talk hitting with Coaches a long time ago....I simply found it a waste of my time and effort....I really am trying to help players and parents...

Bluedog,

I'm sure everybody applauds your intent in helping players and parents and the fact you work with individual students one on one. Often takes people other than the coach or parent to make inroads with a player and help fix their problems

Our collective issue is isn't the desire to help but the "how". I seriously doubt your are as cryptic with your students as your are on this board and don't simply say "sequence better" or "gotta improve your swing plane" to your students. What we are curious about is how do you go about getting your student to sequence better or improve his swing plane.

That is all anyone has really ever asked.

You say you don't like discussing hitting with coaches. Thats fine but there are still parents/players reading that may need more guidance than one line comments or catch phrases to accomplish what you claim to desire. Talk with them instead but not at them and you'll go along way to actually helping those you say you want to help.

Coach2709, perhaps you haven't read much of what I've posted....

I've explained stuff awhole lot on here over a period of time....Maybe you're just listening to the few who instigate mischief on here, I don't know....

That's all they're here for.....Not to help anyone....Many people don't post here, anymore, because of them.....

Wow I have been swamped the past two days. I don't know why but for some reason my school thinks I should still teach when baseball season is in full swing. Too bad I can't trust the kids to grade their own papers to help save time

I'm going to try and get back with everyone who has said something to me and hopefully I won't leave anyone out.

S. Abrams

I think we are on the same page in terms of the hand drop. It's definately not a hitch but a significant dropping to where you end up losing a lot of torque due to everything out of whack plus the body is no longer really providing the power.

I'm with you that I'm not a fan of a hitch but it can be a good tool / adjustment if you got a guy with super quick hands.

I also agree that getting on a website and writing about hitting is a very, very difficult thing to do. We each have our own way of describing things and we each have different levels of ability to explain things through writing.

With that in mind I ask Bluedog and Quincy what do you guys mean exactly by the hands have to drop in the swing? If you guys are talking about the downward path taken to get the barrel into the hittng zone then yes I will agree with you on that point and clarify that's what I call driving the hands - not dropping. Now if you are talking about something that Barry Bonds and a few others do then I understand what is going on and why they do it - I just think it's a terrible thing to teach a high school kid. They are trying to create more of an upward swing path to generate power / distance. They are power hitters and should do that but they are also freaks of nature that can do things that most people cannot do. That is why I believe this swing should not be taught to HS kids. They lack the overall strength and ability to master this swing.

In the other thread I said there is no such thing as the perfect swing and I still stand by that statement but I will add that each player can have a perfect swing just for them. Each player has their own strengths and weaknesses and therefore have to make slight adjustments to their swing. Overall the constants in the swing are the same.

Bluedog

As for the drills there is no way in the world they are band aids or quick fixes or not letting players reach their fullest potential. The concept / idea that I'm hearing you say is that when a hitter practices drills the effect is only going to be temporary. Would you say that is correct? If not please clarify for me. For right now I'm going to go with the assumption that I'm right.

Hitting is about trying to repeat the same mechanics over and over and over each time you hit. For whatever reason(s) a hitter will end up developing a flaw / bad habit in their swing. The drill is there for helping to correct that flaw when needed. There is no method in the world that will stop flaws from developing. They are going to happen because guys get tired through the season or small nagging injuries and start doing things differently. The drills are the best way to reinforce the proper mechanics to fix the flaws or help stave them off.

Simply - why do MLB players do drills before BP before games during the season and during the offseason? They know it works and if the best hitters in the game think drills work then it's good enough for me.

BP on the field is wonderful if you are getting ready for a game, fine tuning your swing or maintaining your swing - it is not the place where you go to fix flaws. The cage and hitting stations is the place to go to fix flaws or teach a swing to someone picking up the game. Teaching / fixing require massive number of swings and you can't get them taking BP on a field. But you can get them hitting off a tee, doing soft toss, front screen toss, whiffle balls and things like that. These drills (when done correctly) create muscle memory so the body can take over when out on the field hitting or taking BP on the field.

Bluedog I agree with S. Abrams in that you probably do have some bits of knowledge to add to the mix but you have to realize that your way isn't the only way just as mine isn't as well. On here you say things that are not clear nor precise enough to be of any help. Plus you criticize people like myself saying we are doing things wrong although overall I've been pretty happy with the way my teams hit the ball. Now that implies that what I do works although you think what I'm doing is not making them as good as what you could do with them. You give the impression that if a player follows what you teach then they can be this awesome hitter but I can't see where you have posted anything that would indicate that. All you do is say a bunch of stuff using big words that most people won't understand in terms of hitting. I don't care what others have said about you because I'm going to make my own assesment of who you are and what I think of you.

In all honesty you sound like Yardbird in the pitching forum who happens to be a Mike Marshall disciple. You're not as bad as he is but there are similarities. You get on here and say a bunch of stuff using big words that are difficult to understand. You act like you have all the answers although very few people do / follow the same advice you give. Lastly, you can't / don't list anybody of relevance that has been helped / taught / coached by you so we can see if what you do works.

You said you don't like discussing hitting with coaches but only with parents / players - is that because they may not really know anything so they listen to you whereas a coach knows better?

A high school coach has his hands tied so much by state rules that they can't offer the amount of help needed in order to maximize what needs to be taught. A player who wants to go to the next level has to get outside help from a good private team and / or personal coach. I have no problem with personal coaches and never have as long as they know what they are doing and don't undermine what I teach. Every kid who's played for me that had a personal coach helped them to reinforce or add to what I taught.

If you've been successful in what you do then that is awesome because that means players have advanced in the game. That is one of (and quite possibly) the only thing we have in common - we both want our players to advance and succeed. I know what I've taught and still teach works. I don't see me making wholesale changes to anything I do unless I feel confident that the change will make for better hitters. If someone gets on here and would rather listen to you instead of me that's cool - I have no problem with that. I still hope that the player gets better.

I think 'stretch' better explains the load. The muscles used to bring the bat forward should be stretched by the opposing muscles so that the greatest effect can be gained by the subsequent 'stretched' muscles contracting in the swing.

Torque and torsion are two expressions of external forces affecting the center. Since no external force is used in the load, I think the expression is misleading. Torque is generated by the bat in the swing causing the followthrough.

Good hand-eye coordination makes hitting easier. In some hitters, the swing plane or path may lose the parabola desired. This will cause less accuracy and a longer time to bring the bat to the ball. A sharp parabolic swing on a consistent plane is most effective.

Coaching should be a four year journey rather than single year uses of talent available. Depending on the established program, a freshman could be introduced to the more effective swing. The sophomore should be using the swing and improvements can be made. Juniors and seniors should be ready to face the hardest throwing pitchers the district or league has to oppose them.

quote:

You said you don't like discussing hitting with coaches but only with parents / players - is that because they may not really know anything so they listen to you whereas a coach knows better?

That's quite a knock on parents who spend alot of time researching and learning hitting technique to help their kids....

Actually, there are many parents who study hitting on boards like this one, and many others, who I believe are more knowledgeable on hitting than the coaches their kids play for....

All you have to do is listen to them post on here to know that......

Of the ten most knowledgeable hitting people I know, two are coaches, and eight are parents...

If I taught one of your players, it would not be to reinforce what you teach...

Next time you see me, Power and Mr. Tewks strike up a conversation on here, enter the fray....After all, it could get interesting...

Bluedog,

Obviously, you have issues and differences with the traditional methods and drills coaches use. You say that if you taught one of Coach2709's players you would not reinforce what he teaches....no problem with that at all as he readily admitted he shares your desire that players improve.

Instead of Coach2709's methods/drills and what he teaches, what would you teach and how would you teach it to one of his players? "What" is nice but the "how" is what is ultimately needed for the player to improve. What can you share to one of the coach's players or other players reading this board?

Sequencing obviously will be a key area you probably focus on based on your previous post. How do you go about instructing the decent HS hitter to get better by improving his sequencing? That just one area but I'm sure you have a few key things you look for...what are they and how do you help players in those areas?

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

The purpose of drills are to

2 - work on developing a shorter stroke

Why would I want a "shorter stroke"? What is different about this swing, exactly? Are you just fixing casting? Or something else?

A short stroke is a faster stroke, able to catch up with a 90+ pitch after sitting on a 83mph Change.

In order to recognize the difference between the two in a game situation, you need to be able to wait and read the pitch. If you wait, you better have a short quick stroke to turn on an inside FB.

foridafan,

Excellent example of the practical side of hitting.

Worthy of an "Atta Babe".

Even tougher is looking for 90+ and getting that 80 mph change. Trevor Hoffman has had a real nice career making hitters look really bad with what, a 78 mph change. Vapor locked more hitters than I care to count over the years.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
A short stroke is a faster stroke, able to catch up with a 90+ pitch after sitting on a 83mph Change.

So what drill do I use to develop a faster stroke? Is this the same as faster bat speed? Or something different?

Can I get in here?
The problem I have with H.S. coaches, is that they often times (not always) act like they know more than everyone else because they played college baseball or because they're a H.S. coach and you're not. If I was a H.S. coach, I would continue to learn and be open to changing from what I was taught if it is better. Most CAN'T do this. I can. If today, I see something that makes sense, I'll look into it, and possibly add it or change what I'm doing. Basically, I have no ego. I want my son and the others I work with to reach their potential regardless of it being the way I was taught or not. Period.
I believe we all have a "swing". I prefer to tweak each kids swing(if possible). I believe some are naturally better than others.I'm not gonna hold them back by forcing them to swing the same way as the others. I'm not gonna take a big strong kid and teach him linear, swing down, put the ball on the ground mechanics and watch him ground out every at bat. If he wants to play baseball, his potential is to hit the ball a long way beause we don't want him clogging up the bases if he does get on.

I think H.S. coaches should coach the parents in their community because they ARE ALLOWED to work with the kids all year! That's what our H.S. coach is doing. He told us (mid school coaches) that WE can work all year, HE CANT. This is what I want them to know when they get here!
I think most H.S. coaches really get off on teaching kids THEIR WAY and seeing the kids have success. Nothing wrong with the intention to help the kids, but it should be about THE KIDS, NOT THE COACH. If we have a move-in come to our school and he can hit the ball but it's a little different than we typically teach, we don't tell him " No son. Do it like this." We watch him as much as possible and see what makes this kid tick. Hell, we might learn something ourselves! Basically, if it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT! You see, I get off on helping kids succeed PERIOD. If I make a small suggestion and it helps, we're BOTH happy.
Now, about those pop-ups discussed earlier, I think this is caused a lot of times by the swing plane of the bat not matching the plane of the pitch. I tell the kids, "you aren't swinging on the same plane and 'this is what it looks like'. Usually in about 5 swings they are hitting line drives. It usually doesn't take a drill, but can be accomplished in the cage.Point is, it MAY well be the position of the hands that's causing this, but I find it easier to explain what the affect is and what it looks like in the big picture, then they correct the "hands problem" themselves. Just a thought.

A faster stroke will always begin with hands and is not a purely rotational swing where the hands and arms are "along for the ride".

A faster stroke takes a direct path to the ball in as straight a path as possible. If the ball is outside, a straight path which will take the ball to the right half of the field.

The drill that I would recommend is called "Dynamic Pepper".

Dynamic Pepper is a drill that involves a person soft tossing to a hitter roughly 3 feet away and hitting into a net. It involves 3 sequenses of events and a finnish for each pitch location.

1st location is middle. Ball is tossed to the hitter over the middle of the plate. Using HANDS and ARMS ONLY the hitter is to make firm contact with the ball and drive it straight into the net. When the bat makes contact with the ball the hitter freezes. No follow through, no shoulder turn, no hip movement.

Just the hands and the arm directly to contact and then freeze. The ball should jump off the bat.

After a bit the forearms will begin to "Burn".
So, the ball is tossed and using just arms and hands at 75%/85%/90% the ball is driven into the net freezing on contact.

Drill 2 requires that the hitter take the same toss and swing all the way through, again without turning shoulders or using any lower body movement. Again, the toss is to the middle of the plate and MUST be driven back up the middle.

Drill 3 brings the upper half into the equation. The ball again is tossed to the same part of the plate. The hitter uses his hands and arms to drive the ball, but now allows the upper body to rotate at the core. Still no lower half. Care MUST be taken to prevent the upper half to turn before the hands begin to move to point of contact.

Drill 4 finally brings the lower half into play. Sit on or keep your weight on the back leg. HANDS AND HIP NEED TO BE CONNECTED. When the hands go, they line up with the hip, and the hands and hip go together. Again, care must be taken to not allow the shoulder to fly open or the "Torso" to open up prematurely.

When you put it all together you FREEZE at finnish and check your position. The "Powerline" is checked, the front leg should "Post" and there should be a anglular line from the toe to the head, weight shifting forward, then finnishing back again with some weight on the back leg.

This is a CRITICAL point, the FINNISH. This is the only time that the body is not in motion, It is FROZEN. The hitter can check things like 1) Is my foot closed off (a good thing) is my follow through above the shoulders, is my powerline correct (angled back). Is my head looking right where my bat made contact with the ball. The point is, if all these points of are correct at the finnish, then A LOT of things had to go right at high speed in order to get to a correct finnish.

This drill is repeated with different soft toss pitch locations. Inside/Outside/Middle/Middle-In/Middle-Out. The ball MUST be Driven where it is tossed. Outside Tosses to the extreme down the 1st baseline or foul, but always with authority. Same with inside pitches.

Care must be taken to arrange the location of the tosser and the plate and hitter so that the person tossing the pitch is not drilled, especially on the outside drills.

These drills have been done by my sons for years and were taught by a former pro who played 12 years in the Majors. He has been teaching close to 30 years and has worked with players that moved on to be MLB players and stars we see today and stars of yesterday. I found this list of his "Alumni":

Gerald Alexander
Jeff Baker
Derek Bell
Casey Blake
Rick Colbert
Jose Cruz, Jr.
J.D. Drew
Tim Drew
Tony Grafanino
Kevin Gregg
Bobby Howry
Charles Johnson
Steve Karsay
Paul Kilgus
Mike Kolplove
Paul Konerko
Casey Kotchman
Marc Kroon
Derek Lee
Paul LoDuca
Albie Lopez
David Martinez
All Nipper
Joe Oliver
Jim Poole
Bill Pulsipher
Jody Reed
Chris Reitsma
Brian Roberts
Larry Rothschild
John Shave
Gary Sheffeld
Robby Thompson
Tim Wakefield
Turner Ward
Walt Weiss
Dan Wilson

This drill is the foundation to everything else he teaches. It has worked for my guys as well.

quote:

This is a CRITICAL point, the FINNISH............The hitter can check things like 1) Is my foot closed off (a good thing).....

Floridafan, can you explain what you mean by this?....I want to comment, but, I wanna make sure I understand what you're saying here....

The Finnish - is the critical part of THE DRILL. If you finnish correctly, as I stated, a lot of things will have had to go right. It gives the hitter the ability to check things to ensure that he did a number of things correctly.

If you are refering to the CLOSED FOOT, some teach this some don't. With a closed front foot and the bat held at point of contact, there is more power with a closed foot that an open one. You can hold a bat at a simulated contact point with a closed foot and have someone push on the bat. The hitter will be firm and have good strength. Do the same with an open foot and the person pushing on the bat will be able to move it and even cause the hitter to lose balance.

OK, I understand......You are saying it's how THE DRILL is done....You're not saying great hitters do it in their swings, though, correct?....

quote:

You can hold a bat at a simulated contact point with a closed foot and have someone push on the bat. The hitter will be firm and have good strength. Do the same with an open foot and the person pushing on the bat will be able to move it and even cause the hitter to lose balance.

Not if they use their hips efficiently....Most amateur hitters don't, though, I will admit...

That is correct...it is a drill.

And if you hold a bat at point of contact with an imaginary ball and stand there, and have someone apply pressure to the bat as if a ball was hitting it. You will have much more control and power with a closed foot than an open one. Just standing there...of course while swinging a bat in a game, one is never just standing there.

However it is interesting to feel the difference between an open and "closed" front foot.

A side benefit of this drill is it does develop very good forearm strength, which will allow a batter to stop his swing once he recognizes that the pitch is not the pitch he initially thought it was.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
A faster stroke will always begin with hands and is not a purely rotational swing where the hands and arms are "along for the ride".

A faster stroke takes a direct path to the ball in as straight a path as possible. If the ball is outside, a straight path which will take the ball to the right half of the field.

FF, can you clarify? When you say the hands begin the swing and the swing takes a direct path, what do you mean?

Back to the title ..... theory v practical

I hunt, so I will give an analogy along those lines. The skills that will win you a world championship duck calling contest are not the same skills that will put the most food on the table. How do you know the difference? You have to be in the field.

Same is true about hitting. The skills that make you a world class hitting instructor may not be the same skills that will win the most games.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
That is correct...it is a drill.

And if you hold a bat at point of contact with an imaginary ball and stand there, and have someone apply pressure to the bat as if a ball was hitting it. You will have much more control and power with a closed foot than an open one. Just standing there...of course while swinging a bat in a game, one is never just standing there.

However it is interesting to feel the difference between an open and "closed" front foot.

A side benefit of this drill is it does develop very good forearm strength, which will allow a batter to stop his swing once he recognizes that the pitch is not the pitch he initially thought it was.

Floridafan,

The problem I have with your theory of the closed foot, is that you are saying (in a round-a-bout way) that a hitter still needs to be applying force at and through contact. The thing is, all of the power creation in a high level swing is over after the first two frames of a five frame swing.

Closed vs open front foot.....we are running into semantics problem in that what exactly constitutes closed or open? To some closed is anything angle that is to the 2nd base side of the diamond while to others closed is 90 degree angle to pitcher (toe pointed generally directly at the plate).

Powertoallfields brings up good point about early generation of batspeed. Kinda important.

Several good points being raised but the "how" is still missing. For that matter, some of the "why" is missing also. Forget proving whose idea is best...think about the audience you are instructing and "how" and "why" you want the player to do something. Otherwise, we're just writing in the snow.

Personally, interested in floridafan's Drill#4 as it is similar function to what I teach hitters. Hips and hands is something I've said on this board many times.

Remember Drill#4 is actually step 4 of 1 drill!

And yes we are talking semantics regarding a closed front foot. If you try to keep it closed it may not fly all the way open. I know that there are MLB hitters that do fly open...I don't necessarilly believe that makes it a good mechanical trait.

As far as having more power at initial contact, not sure why that would not be a positive outcome. I could care less after the ball leaves the bat.

Again, this is not my drill or teaching but the teaching from a very successful instructor. Not an instructor who teaches a Little League Swing, or a High School Swing or a College Swing, but a high level MLB swing.

And Power, while I may agree with you that the most power developed in a swing may occur early as you indicate the first few frames, power can bleed off throughout the swing. The key to a high level swing is to get rid of every source of bleeding power as possible. A closed front foot can be the difference between a fly out to the warning track or over the wall. Every aspect needs to be identified and considered.

What I'm saying, is that the position of the front foot means very little, it lands where it lands, but if you try to keep it closed, you will keep the front hip closed as well and THAT is a killer in the swing. There is no way to bleed power from a swing by opening the front foot or hip as long as the weight and stretch is balanced. The weight needs to stay over the rear leg until "go". The stretch needs to be balanced "around" the rear hip pivot point, so, if you open your hip more or foot more, you will need to coil more to balance the stretch. If you don't, you will fall off the rear hip and lose balance and weight and that is a bleed of power.

There was some video posted a while back that showed Pujols with a VERY closed front foot. For better or worse...Not saying that the foot needs to stay closed all the way either...

I don't think that whether the front foot stays open or closed is the emphisis of the drill. It is primarily a drill that is geared to develop quick hands and a powerful stroke and I believe involves "sequensing" which was a topic earlier.

My guy tries to keep his front foot closed as long as possible, however as you state as the hips clear, which is after contact, the foot will open up some. But he is not spinning on his heel as some MLB hitters do.

I believe that if you are 6'4 and 230 pounds, some mechanical issues will be irrelevent, you can afford to "bleed" some power. My guy is 5'11" and 195 and needs to focus and be efficient with all the energy he can create.

I believe that the key to power is the linkage between the hands and the hip.

The hands (top hand) needs to get the clubhead on the correct plane of the pitch as quickly as possible, as they link with the hip. This is why hands are important. They control the club head.

You think Pujols' hips don't clear until after contact in this clip?


http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Pujols8.gif

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
I believe that the key to power is the linkage between the hands and the hip.

The hands (top hand) needs to get the clubhead on the correct plane of the pitch as quickly as possible, as they link with the hip. This is why hands are important. They control the club head.

The hands are connected to the hip?

I'm not getting how the small, really miniscule, muscles in the hand generate power.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
What I'm saying, is that the position of the front foot means very little, it lands where it lands, but if you try to keep it closed, you will keep the front hip closed as well and THAT is a killer in the swing. There is no way to bleed power from a swing by opening the front foot or hip as long as the weight and stretch is balanced. The weight needs to stay over the rear leg until "go". The stretch needs to be balanced "around" the rear hip pivot point, so, if you open your hip more or foot more, you will need to coil more to balance the stretch. If you don't, you will fall off the rear hip and lose balance and weight and that is a bleed of power.

You rob power by keeping your hips closed? Seems like it would "bleed" power, as you call it, if they start to prematurely open. So, you are saying that most MLB power hitters do not use a closed foot?

Why can't I "lose balance"? and why is that a bad thing? I hear this all the time re pitching, but it's a myth in pitching - just watch Lincecum.

Actually the position of the front foot pretty much follows these rules in MLB - short to medium stride, land on ball of front foot - long stride, land on heel (can't land on ball of foot when stretched out that far). Landing on the heel may cause the hips to open slightly.

I totally understand why coaches don't get involved in hitting discussions.

Videos are often useless unless used by the individual hitter and his coach when they both know pitch location and type of pitch. Period. Everybody is merely guessing the above and use various videos to support their theory and ignore the rest. Unfortunately videos are all we have to work with on an internet board but we need to understand their limitations.

Unless MLB hitters don't make adjustments during the swing based on pitch location and speed, so that each swing is identical.....ohh yeah, that I believe. Open vs closed hip/foot seems to be a sticking point for many as if it was a universal key to a good swing. Question...do the hips open the same way/time for an inside fastball and for a curve on the outer edge of the plate?

Theory vs. practical.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
What I'm saying, is that the position of the front foot means very little, it lands where it lands, but if you try to keep it closed, you will keep the front hip closed as well and THAT is a killer in the swing. There is no way to bleed power from a swing by opening the front foot or hip as long as the weight and stretch is balanced. The weight needs to stay over the rear leg until "go". The stretch needs to be balanced "around" the rear hip pivot point, so, if you open your hip more or foot more, you will need to coil more to balance the stretch. If you don't, you will fall off the rear hip and lose balance and weight and that is a bleed of power.

You rob power by keeping your hips closed? Seems like it would "bleed" power, as you call it, if they start to prematurely open. So, you are saying that most MLB power hitters do not use a closed foot?

Why can't I "lose balance"? and why is that a bad thing? I hear this all the time re pitching, but it's a myth in pitching - just watch Lincecum.

Actually the position of the front foot pretty much follows these rules in MLB - short to medium stride, land on ball of front foot - long stride, land on heel (can't land on ball of foot when stretched out that far). Landing on the heel may cause the hips to open slightly.

You think your icon had his hips closed when he starts to take the barrel to the ball??? You think Lincecum is unbalanced or his hips are closed when he starts to bring the ball forward??? You must be on another drinking binge Babe.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Unfortunately videos are all we have to work with on an internet board but we need to understand their limitations.

Open vs closed hip/foot seems to be a sticking point for many as if it was a universal key to a good swing. Question...do the hips open the same way/time for an inside fastball and for a curve on the outer edge of the plate?

Theory vs. practical.

Yes, video is what we have. Yes, the hips open the same way/time on EVERY pitch. Now, they may not open as much on outside pitches, but they start to open at the same time. No great hitter ever hit with his hips closed when he was taking the barrel to the ball. NOT ONE! No great Pitcher ever threw the ball with his hips closed either. NOT ONE!

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
You think Pujols' hips don't clear until after contact in this clip?


http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Pujols8.gif

To me from the perspective of what I have seen taught, again - semantics and verbal cues - Pujols' foot is essentially closed here. Not to the extent of a previous clip that appeared here, which was quite dramatic, but to the degree that his foot is positioned after the swing, his foot is closed off.

Again, the problem is to what degree do you believe I infer when I say a "closed foot"...this to me is closed.

Hips open same way and same time for every pitch...really.

Interesting.

So accordingly a hitter has esentially the same amount of power to all fields? And pitch location has no bearing on when/how the hips open, inside or outside location? With no adjustments during the swing as I mentioned in the post (kinda vital point)?

Coach2709, Coach May and the rest...I'm joining you on the sidelines on this thread. Obviously I either played too long and coached too long. Put me down on the Practical side.

Great hitters use a running start of the hips and hands. That means, they were moving BEFORE they read final location. That doesn't seem like too tough of a concept to me. You don't have the same power to all fields because the barrel doesn't travel as far and not as much momentum is created on an outside pitch. Again, not too tough of a concept.

quote:

My guy tries to keep his front foot closed as long as possible, however as you state as the hips clear, which is after contact, the foot will open up some. But he is not spinning on his heel as some MLB hitters do.

Floridafan,

You said, in the above quote, that the hips don't clear until after contact. You can honestly look at the clip in question and say that his hips haven't cleared well before contact???

Power could you explain or show exactly what a "running start of the hips and hands" is? I know you said they were moving before reading the final pitch location but I would like for you to get more detailed.

Thanks

Power you are obsessed with my off hand comment regarding the front foot being open or closed and the hips clearing or not...

This was never a critical part of the drill outlined above, way above now.

I find it odd that no one has any interest at all in the drill called "Dynamic Pepper", and choose to focus on whether a foot is open or closed or if I believe hips clear or don't clear. Whatever...

The drill above works, teach it and your hitters will improve, adjust it to however you want that front foot to land and the hip to clear...

The little muscles in the hands and wrists are big enough in a well developed hitter to control a club head and get the bat in motion. The bat in motion which is controlled by the muscles in the hand will always be quicker than a bat that is not in motion. Call it a trigger if you want, but the bat needs to be in motion before "GO" or a slower swing will result. If the bat is in motion and you are not swinging then the hands must be doing something (or they should be) to get the bat in motion. The hands start that motion which begins the swing. Therefore hands move first.

The drill is PRATICAL Not THEORETICAL

Power,

Much better... not there yet but improving. Still forgot the "why" and "how". Inside fastball vs outside curve and the timing you kinda left out unless you really believe the hips do exactly the same thing for each pitch and speed. So the hips are moving "before they read final location" as you say...how are they moving? Are they opening or moving laterally? Why is that important? Not saying you are wrong just need to figure out the semantics and if I understand your "concept". Coach2709 seems to have similar questions.

Very interested in the coil around the rear hip pivot you mentioned and the timing of this action in relation to the front hip opening.


Concepts=Theory. Gotta be able to put them into practice to become practical to that 11 yr old kid we're teaching.

Ever see Dimaggio (Joe, not Dom) hit? How do you like his running start?

Just got my personal invite to join the coaches. Be right over.

Coaches, can floridafan join us? Just find it hard to leave a good man behind on the battlefield.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Very interested in the coil around the rear hip pivot you mentioned and the timing of this action in relation to the front hip opening.

Does the front hip open or does the back hip open the front hip?

Further, how much power is coming from the front hip opening... Can we call this front side resistance?


BlueDog, I'd love to hear your take on what a "rear hip pivot point" might be compared to "setting the torque."


In terms of theory vs practical, if you want your "theory swing" to work in the game, work harder!!!

Doctors used to practice bloodletting, but thankfully someone was concerned with theory.

quote:

BlueDog, I'd love to hear your take on what a "rear hip pivot point" might be compared to "setting the torque."

Well, Mr, Tewks, I'm thinking I may be left out in the cold on this one as I've been saying for awhile something that has been mostly ignored.....

There exists a separation of the hips in the swing....A torque, shall I dare say....The front and back hip work independently of each other...

I must say this, also....Remember when I said I don't like the word "load"?.....Well, I, also, don't like the word, "opening".....Very misleading words, IMO....

It's about knowing how the front and back hip should function.....The rear hip can look opened and still hold a load.....The front hip can look open and still provide a resistance for providing torque....

But, I'm not a Coach....So, what do I know?

quote:

The front and back hip work independently of each other...

Please Bluedog for all that is good and holy explain how the front and back hip can work independently of each other?

How can a hip that looks open can still hold a load?

These two statements seem absolutely impossible so please explain how these two things work in a way I can understand.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

BlueDog, I'd love to hear your take on what a "rear hip pivot point" might be compared to "setting the torque."

Well, Mr, Tewks, I'm thinking I may be left out in the cold on this one as I've been saying for awhile something that has been mostly ignored.....

There exists a separation of the hips in the swing....A torque, shall I dare say....The front and back hip work independently of each other...

I must say this, also....Remember when I said I don't like the word "load"?.....Well, I, also, don't like the word, "opening".....Very misleading words, IMO....

It's about knowing how the front and back hip should function.....The rear hip can look opened and still hold a load.....The front hip can look open and still provide a resistance for providing torque....

But, I'm not a Coach....So, what do I know?

What do you prefer instead of open?

Also, with the independent hips, are you referring to power/force production? As in, the front hip "opening" is a smoke screen?

BlueDog,

How do you feel about the words "coil" and "uncoil"... when referring to the rear hip?

Bluedog,

You say the front and rear hips work independent from one another. Ok. Are you talking about the ability for rotation in the hip itself due to it's ability to swivel or something else? If so, do you agree the timing of that rotation would in itself help the hips coil/uncoil independent from one another, aiding in torque? Do you see any variance in the timing of this and the start of the hands based on pitch location or speed?

And how does all that interact with the upper body efficiently? Think I know where you going but you jumped the track on me a bit. Yeah,, you're not a coach but you have players you teach one on one so how would I explain your thoughts to a couple of my students in terms that may make sense to him? This kid I'm working with has a full academic ride to Vanderbilt in Engineering so he can handle pretty technical stuff; another has a ride in baseball to an ACC school so likewise he can grasp pretty difficult points. The last one needs it pretty vanilla; best player on the field but not classroom.

Understand the front hip opening but you mentioned the rear hip can look open while maintaining a load. The rear hip open thing loses me.

quote:

Also, with the independent hips, are you referring to power/force production? As in, the front hip "opening" is a smoke screen?

No, Mr. Tewks, not a smokescreen.....I'm referring to a torque between the two hips.....The front hip needs to open during the positive move, or stride if you do stride, and stay open....

quote:

How do you feel about the words "coil" and "uncoil"... when referring to the rear hip?

Probably a good choice of words....I try to be careful how I explain stuff 'cause I know it can be taken a bunch of different ways, usually....

Here's what I find happening from the hips first coaching crowd......They teach players to begin the forward swing with the hips....Load up and get the hips moving first in the unload....And, that's not, at all, what should happen....

The hips are actually moving forward before the hands reach their launch position....Well before....

Mr. tewks, I suppose what I'm trying to say is, the key to the back hip staying coiled is the front hip....

Now, of course the hams, quads and glutes are involved....But, for all practical purposes, it's the hips...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Mr. tewks, I suppose what I'm trying to say is, the key to the back hip staying coiled is the front hip....

What is the front hip doing to keep the back hip coiled? Not opening? Not pulling? Resisting opening?

Opening...Coiling the opposite way...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Opening...Coiling the opposite way...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Opening...Coiling the opposite way...

Lead side resistance?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Also, with the independent hips, are you referring to power/force production? As in, the front hip "opening" is a smoke screen?

No, Mr. Tewks, not a smokescreen.....I'm referring to a torque between the two hips.....The front hip needs to open during the positive move, or stride if you do stride, and stay open....

quote:

How do you feel about the words "coil" and "uncoil"... when referring to the rear hip?

Probably a good choice of words....I try to be careful how I explain stuff 'cause I know it can be taken a bunch of different ways, usually....

Here's what I find happening from the hips first coaching crowd......They teach players to begin the forward swing with the hips....Load up and get the hips moving first in the unload....And, that's not, at all, what should happen....

The hips are actually moving forward before the hands reach their launch position....Well before....

Ok so are you saying that the hips should NOT move forward first in the unload?

And then use a video of Pujols showing his hips moving first in the unload phase?

So what's going on? Why the discrepancy?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbyTewks:

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Opening...Coiling the opposite way...

Lead side resistance?

Lead side resistance, IMO, is trying to keep the hip from opening by not allowing it to coil in the opposite direction.


IMO, the clip below shows the proper hip function in two of the best ever to play the game.


http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Hitzone/BarryTed.gif

Pujols video...front and rear hip both move together. Hands are moving also. Watch the knees of both legs for the rotation of the leg within the hip socket. Front and rear hip maintain relationnship.

Williams and Bonds....slightly different hip actions at start. Williams rotates/opens stride leg within the hip socket during short stride, lands with open foot; Bonds does not, foot lands much more closed. Pelvic girdle/hips maintain their relationship to one another with both hitters.

I do agree totally that these videos are of three of the greatest hitters the game will ever see. For even a slightly different hip action, view the Ramirez video in the other thread.

Hip action vs rotation of femur within hip socket are very different animals. Physically impossible for front hip BONE to move without a corresponding movement of the rear hip BONE. Both BONES are part of the pelvic girdle which is one piece. If the front moves an inch in one direction, the rear must move one inch. Lateral or rotational doesn't matter, the pelvis and hip bone (front and rear) will move as a unit.

Descibing how the body moves is a science requiring intellectual honesty which in itself requires precision. Everybody is trying to simplify this by using terminology that is ill suited for science; while understandable, a valid description of the movements and variables is virtually impossible without precise terminology.

I threw out a lifeline about this earlier; why a hangman's noose was tied in it for a suicide is beyond me.

I'm heading back to the sideline and my lawn chair and Cokes. Carry on.

There is no such thing as a hip bone. Their are two hip joints where the ball of the femur is set in a cup (actebullum) on the pelvic girdle. Those joints are held in place by muscle and tendon and some of those run from the pelvic girdle all the way to the mid line of the humerus bone. Some run in and out of the pelvis and across to the other hip. The key to understanding the high level swing is STRETCH of muscles and the contraction of the opposing muscles. I will say this about the pelvic girdle. In a high level swing, the pelvic girdle turns around a pivot point in the rear hip joint and sits on top of the ball of the rear femur.

Power,

I respect your attempt; very close. Not bad at all.(Humerus is the bone in the upper arm. Not a big deal as you do talk about the femur.)

Pelvis is comprised of basically 3 sections called the coaxal bones. The hipbone (where you place your hands on hips) is the illium. You also have the ischium and pubic bones. The actebullum is the hip socket itself and is a ball and socket arrangement. Pelvis/pelvis girdle is essentially fused bones at various spots such as the sacrum or lower vertebrae, forming essentially a one piece unit.

Agree with your point about stretch and opposing muscle groups contractions,etc. As it pertains to the hips, how can this be taught to a hitter? Or is it a teachable point? Is the stretch caused by femur rotation within the hip socket during the load,etc. or someway else?

Agree with your assessmment how the pelvic girdlle turns around a pivot point at the hip joint.

Good job, Power.

Heading back to sideline but gotta make a beverage run so I'll be out for awhile. Carry on.

Power and Mr. Tewks, it's easier teaching players and parents this stuff......They just understand stuff better.....

Mr. Tewks, the front hip coiling the oppsoite way is lead side resistance for the back hip and the hands....

Also, the back hip coiling is back side resistance for the front hip.....

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,

I respect your attempt; very close. Not bad at all.(Humerus is the bone in the upper arm. Not a big deal as you do talk about the femur.)

Pelvis is comprised of basically 3 sections called the coaxal bones. The hipbone (where you place your hands on hips) is the illium. You also have the ischium and pubic bones. The actebullum is the hip socket itself and is a ball and socket arrangement. Pelvis/pelvis girdle is essentially fused bones at various spots such as the sacrum or lower vertebrae, forming essentially a one piece unit.

Agree with your point about stretch and opposing muscle groups contractions,etc. As it pertains to the hips, how can this be taught to a hitter? Or is it a teachable point? Is the stretch caused by femur rotation within the hip socket during the load,etc. or someway else?

Agree with your assessmment how the pelvic girdlle turns around a pivot point at the hip joint.

Good job, Power.

Heading back to sideline but gotta make a beverage run so I'll be out for awhile. Carry on.

The Lat muscle is attached at one end to the Pelvis and to the mid-line of the Humerus (upper arm) at the other end.

Do this, stand on your rear leg, don't let your leg turn rearward, sit a little, turn your belly button toward the Catcher as far as you can without that leg turning. The muscles in that joint will get tighter, like wringing out a rag. That's one joint. Now, externally rotate your front leg, hold onto a pole if you have to to keep your balance over your rear leg. Do you feel stretch in both groins?

Power, to feel this kind of stretch would involve practical hitting with at least a resemblance of a high level swing.....

Most Coaches teach turn your hips back then fire your hips and then let your hands go...They won't feel the kind of stretch you're talking about...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Power, to feel this kind of stretch would involve practical hitting with at least a resemblance of a high level swing.....

Most Coaches teach turn your hips back then fire your hips and then let your hands go...They won't feel the kind of stretch you're talking about...

I agree. I would also bet very few people in the world have felt "cusp" in their swing or have ever "whipped" the barrel to the ball. When this kind of stretch is created, it is amazing how little effort is needed to actually swing the bat.

No stretch, no whip......

You know what - I'm done with this forum. There is no way on earth you can teach a typical high school kid all that stuff you're saying and preaching. Go ahead and feel superior and dominant all you want to "us coaches" who don't know any better. I don't care what you think just like you don't care what I think. If someone wants to come on here and read your piles of garbage and try to use it - fine. I doubt they will be able to hit a lick.

There is no one way to teach hitting and no one way to swing a bat. All you guys do is create robots that can't make adjustments. Other than myself I've seen other posters ask legitimate questions about technique, strategy and who you have worked with but get ignored. That tells me one of two things (and possibly both) - 1) you have no idea what you're talking about and you ignore the questions because you would be exposed OR 2) you are the most arrogant people on the face of the earth and don't want to listen to anyone else.

You guys can have this forum and preach all you want to because after thinking about it I'm too busy on the field actually doing something WITH the game instead of pontificating about a bunch of stuff the people we are trying to help will never understand. Have fun here and talk all you want to each other because I'm going out to the field and help some actual kids.

Let me see how many more championships I can help my kids win or get my kids into college through what I teach in hitting. It's obviously working. Too bad you guys are so closed minded to not try and listen.

S. Abrams and floridafan - scoot over because I'm done with this. I'm joining you guys on the sideline where the real players need help.

Power,

Thank you; was wondering why the humerus was mentioned. Good explaination of your thoughts.

Contrary to opinion, many coaches do teach what you are talking about but with different vernacular. Such as telling the player never let the back leg break back or lean towards the catcher or making sure the weight stays on the inside of the back foot before and during the stride. Coaching cues that most kids can understand and in effort to achieve the desired result. KISS is very important so that everybody gets on the same page.

So you are saying counteract the torquing into the rear hip by rotating the front leg (femur) externally (towards the pitcher) to achieve the stretch through the hips. Pelvic girdle doesn't itself move during the external rotation, simply the upper leg/femur itself turns within the front socket, thus achieving stretch through the hips. Is this close or am I totally missing something?

Does a leg lift affect the stretch, such as Ramirez?

The real issue is now how to teach the above to a hitter. We can pursue the perfect swing all day but if we can't convey in simple terms to the kids, we're simply spitting into the wind. They then still have to learn the adjustments for location and speed. It is those adjustments that are the secret to hitting because we are interested in teaching hitting, not simply swinging.

Baseball is lightyears behind golf in the technical break down of the swing and commonly used terminology. Seriously doubt baseball will ever come close due to the differences in the two sports.

We'll get to the "cusp" later...never heard that hitting term in 50+ years of playing/coaching.

Gotta go get a Coke. Thanks Power.

quote:

S. Abrams and floridafan - scoot over because I'm done with this. I'm joining you guys on the sideline where the real players need help.

Only one I see scooting is you......

Personally, I believe it's garbage for a Coach to not give enough credit to a parent or player to be able to understand this stuff.....

Just for kicks, the weight can get past the rear leg in the negative move...No problem....

Teaching keep the weight on the inside of the rear foot during the negative move does not work very well and is actually a smokescreen to what really needs to happen.......

It aint about the feet...It's about the hips...

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,

Thank you; was wondering why the humerus was mentioned. Good explaination of your thoughts.


So you are saying counteract the torquing into the rear hip by rotating the front leg (femur) externally (towards the pitcher) to achieve the stretch through the hips. Pelvic girdle doesn't itself move during the external rotation, simply the upper leg/femur itself turns within the front socket, thus achieving stretch through the hips. Is this close or am I totally missing something?

Does a leg lift affect the stretch, such as Ramirez?

We'll get to the "cusp" later...never heard that hitting term in 50+ years of playing/coaching.

Yes, it sounds like you got it. The Pelvic girdle will move however as the rear leg turns because that joint will be locked in with the stretch around the joint.

No, IMO, the leg lift of Manny is probably more of a timing move than anything else, but with the front leg unweighted, it is easier to coil the rear hip (also, IMO), but different players find it easier to do in different ways. It can be done in any number of ways.

quote:

.....but with the front leg unweighted, it is easier to coil the rear hip (also, IMO),

Again, it aint 'bout the feet...It's 'bout the hips....

Bluedog,

Don't be an #$#.

Power is doing all the lifting here and making a legitimate attempt at explainations. Without his efforts, my butt would stay in the shade on the sidelines and not leave. Power understood the lifeline I threw to you; he used it quite well while you ignored it.

Be part of the solution for a change. At this point, you are always simply parroting what Power and Bobby Tewks say.

Want to get involved? Start talking about how all this carries over to the field and why it is important and how a player actually does use the info. to become a better hitter. Better figure out how to say the same thing multiple ways as kids learn in a variety of ways and methods.

Would a cracker help?

Remember HS coaches teach more kids hitting in a day than you or I will in a year.

Power, believe me, the punchline is coming.....

You know something, I'm gone to the sideline also. Move over coaches...I'm buying.

Bluedog, at this point I know you are a truly farce and a troll. Continue your lovefest with some of the others and go get a room, but at least pay for the room as they will be doing all the work.

Power, I enjoyed your explainations and thoughts. Unfortunately, Bluedog is now totally your burden to bear and housebreak. Just remember his breed is a "sooner" so don't turn your back. Good luck.

Knew it was right 'round the corner.....

When it's exposure time, it's sideline time....

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Bluedog,

Don't be an #$#.

Power is doing all the lifting here and making a legitimate attempt at explainations. Without his efforts, my butt would stay in the shade on the sidelines and not leave. Power understood the lifeline I threw to you; he used it quite well while you ignored it.

Be part of the solution for a change. At this point, you are always simply parroting what Power and Bobby Tewks say.

Want to get involved? Start talking about how all this carries over to the field and why it is important and how a player actually does use the info. to become a better hitter. Better figure out how to say the same thing multiple ways as kids learn in a variety of ways and methods.

Would a cracker help?

Remember HS coaches teach more kids hitting in a day than you or I will in a year.

Bluedog was on this stuff long before me! I learned much of what I know from reading his posts on here, many, long after they were originally posted. The thing is, you need to be at a certain level of knowledge before some of it sinks in because it is so contrary to what most teach. I have had many arguements with Blue, but ended up eating my words. I can tell you, Crow tastes BAD, but very nourishing in the end. Guys like Coach2709 are, IMO, why Blue isn't more forthright with his info, most really don't want to know what he has to say, they think they know it already. Thus, Blue's post, "just wait Power, the punchline is coming". Just hang on for awhile, ask questions that show you are trying to learn (you've gone out and swung a bat to try and figure out what he's saying) and you may be very glad you did.

What Bluedog knows is very valuable, why should he give it to those that don't respect what he has to offer?

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...86003481/m/783109933

The thread above will show anyone the agenda of the Coaches who were baiting over here...

Parents, learn this stuff so you can help your kid....Players, learn this stuff so you can help yourself...

bluedog

Many parents never played the game so how can they understand your jibberish---

I am with Coach2709---kids need to be taught on the field,not in a forum full of big words and no examples---teaching hitting , as well as pitching, is a "hands on process".

But then again there are loads of you guys getting mucho dinero per hour for "teaching", if in fact you in actuality do teach or instruct

Ahhh, TRhit showing up after the punchline was sprung is the icing on the cake.....Ya just knew it was coming.....

Ya gotta love it.....

bluedog


Without your jibberish we "baseball people" would have no fun---you still don't answer questions do you

Ask those Dads you speak about if they undertsnad what you spew and then come back with an answer---you coaches have any more room on the bench or do I buy another one?

I had a kid in the cage tonight and he takes a swing and just stops and declares, "I just had an epiphany. I just figured it out." And he proceeded to tell me everything I've been telling him since I started working him. He had to feel it. The theoretical becomes practical when the coach/teacher/instructor can get the player to actually feel what is supposed to happen. There is a lot of trial and error, but hopefully a good coach can enhance the process.

The more you dig into the mechanics, the more you can communicate to your players. The more tools you have in your tool belt. Some kids will get the technical stuff. With the vast majority of players, "stay back" and "use your hands" isn't enough. If explained properly, this technical stuff isn't so bad.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...86003481/m/783109933

The thread above will show anyone the agenda of the Coaches who were baiting over here...

So what was the punchline? It must not been too funny (or informative).

Let me tell you something - you want to take something that I posted and use it as a posterboard for what's wrong with hitting then you go right ahead. Trust me - that stuff works and that is the stuff that makes kids be great hitters. I've seen it work for years and it will continue to work for many more years. I didn't invent this stuff - I got it from going to many, many, many coaching clinics put on by extrememly credible people IN baseball. I got these drills from successful college coaches and successful pro scouts. Are you telling me that guys who are at the top of the food chain of baseball are wrong? Are you telling me that you can teach hitting better than them? The vast majority of coaching is taking what others do and making it fit into what your players can do.

I was at a coaching clinic about two months ago at the University of North Carolina and a lot of their offensive practice was drills. UNC is one of the best programs in the entire country. Dustin Ackley was one of the greatest hitters in college baseball a couple of years ago - are you saying what they do is wrong? Are you saying that what you "teach" is better than what they teach? If so then why aren't they knocking down your door to hire you?

Do you know more than John Cohen? In case you have no idea he is the head coach at Miss. State University and is considered one of the best hitting coaches in the nation. Here's a little about him in case you don't know who he is

quote:

Exactly 18 years to the day after leaving Omaha following his final game in a Mississippi State uniform, John Cohen accepted the head coaching position at his alma mater with the goal of returning the Bulldogs regularly to Johnny Rosenblatt Stadium.
Cohen was named to head the MSU baseball program June 7, 2008. He joins the Bulldog program following a successful five-year head coaching stint at Southeastern Conference rival Kentucky.

Cohen, who was named the 2006 Southeastern Conference Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year by the College Baseball Foundation and CollegeBaseballinsider.com, led the Kentucky to a pair of NCAA Regional appearances in the last three seasons. He also led the Wildcats to their first-ever SEC Championship in 2006.

In his five seasons at UK, Cohen’s teams compiled a 175-113-1 (.607) record and posted a pair of 44-win seasons – the winningest seasons in school history.

Well-known for his ability as a hitting instructor, Cohen directed the best offensive club in the SEC in 2006, piling up a school-record 500 runs. His 2007 club hit for a stellar .320 average, just one point shy of the UK school record. Cohen’s program utilized a high-powered offensive philosophy to direct the first worst-to-first turnaround in SEC baseball history in 2006, as UK emerged from the SEC basement into a league front runner.

He has a best selling DVD on the 40 hitting drills to help you find your best swing. He's coached numerous guys who have since went on to pro ball. Are you saying you know more than him or what he teaches is wrong?

Here's where the problem lies - you can't prove that **** you teach actually works but it doesn't stop you from saying how great you are. The proof I got is stated above - I try to teach the things that the best teach. You have come up with some gobbley de gook that sounds great and impressive but doesn't teach anything. Like the title of the thread says Theory vs. Practical. You are nothing but theory. All that stuff is probably true and is what happens but doesn't mean jack squat when a kid has to get in a batters box and perform the task. That is total theory - it sounds good, probably is true but no way to prove it. Guys like myself who are in the trenches have to be able to explain and work on aspects of the swing that the kid can take with them into the batters box and try to smoke a line drive back up the middle. That is practical - it sounds good, it is true if it works for the kid and it's proven everyday in practice and games.

You are just like the Mike Marshall disciples in that you just keep saying what you do is the best without any proof, evidence or examples. You are broken record who keeps saying the same thing over and over and over without ever really saying anything of substance. You take people who have very little knowledge of the game and try to do two things - 1) impress them with you vast knowledge of big words and 2) try to convince them the high school coach doesn't know what he's talking about and when the kid still can't crack the lineup it's the coaches fault. You dazzle, distract and throw blame and that is the extent of your "teaching". You prey on the people who don't know any better.

I'm going to take a page out of your book in terms of teaching - I don't care what you say or think but there is no way you could hold my jock when it comes to teaching hitting. I would take some kid you have ruined and make them a lot better. There's not a snowball's chance in an oven you could do that with a kid I work with first.

If you truly had any idea what you were talking about more people would be doing what you're doing but they aren't. Like I said earlier you're nothing but a hitting version of a Mike Marshall disciple. All hot air and nothing of substance.

Against my better judgement, I'm going to weigh in. Theory is great. It gives us a starting place and certainly a lot of discussion. In my opinion, parents often are left behind because theorist want to demonstrate their egos by using terms and strategies far above the knowledge base of the typical parent. Still, it is incumbent upon the parents to wade through the morass. You then have to find a theory that makes sense to you. I've studies most of them. One makes more sense to me. It doesn't mean that same philosophy will makes sense to you. Then, you have to be able to apply that theory.

For goodness sake, you have to swing a bat some. Even if you aren't adept at it, you still learn so much that you understand which philosophies fit your belief system better. I don't know that any one totally matches up. Find drills you believe in BUT know that drill work can be a great benefit OR a great deterrant to the development of your child. I know Bluedog is opposed to Tee work and why not. If you've seen much tee work, it doesn't take long to see players absolutely destroying any base that they might have with regards to a good swing.

Personally, I believe that all work needs to come from the front. Some don't. I believe that you need to study the core and how it is involved. I'm still learning every day on that. Yesterday, a friend I had never met came to watch my child practice. She hit 3 of the firt 4 BP balls out of the yard. He commented that she swings with no effort. The irony of it is that she's put a lot of effort in to it.

Finally, practical hitting is simply implimenting verified theory as it relates to your child. You'll make several changes on your journey to your belief system. That's fine. The day you think you know it all, is really the day that you will stop being an asset for your child. JMHO!

CoachB25 is one of the two Coaches I was talking about when I mentioned that out of the top ten most knowledgeable people I know when it comes to hitting, two are Coaches and eight are parents....He is a Coach who knows to, and does, try different and new ideas and theory....I know that I have learned from him....

From other Coaches, I learn what not to do....Their egos don't allow them to learn....The evidence for that is in their posts.....

bluedog

Aned perhaps they feel the same about your pposts and lack of actual knowledge

You still have not told us where your instructional facility is and do you have any references?

My first period class just let out and in it I've got 3 baseball players. They cover the spectrum of talent in baseball ability.

One is an outfielder who is a great kid but not very good. He rarely steps onto the field.

One is our starting centerfielder and is a really good high school player. He might have a chance to play at the next level but will need help.

One is a starting pitcher and shortstop. He's pretty good. He's two time all state, has already committed to East Carolina, selected for Area Code, AFLAC All American game candidate and is on the radar screen for the draft as a junior.

All three are juniors and have been on the team which has won back to back conference titles.

I let all three read this entire post and I never told them of how I felt about this thread or who I was on here. I tried to leave them as a blank slate and let them read the thread and what they got out of it is what they got out of it.

They said they didn't understand any of the posts that actually talked about hitting. They said if we tried to teach them that way they would be so lost and have no idea what to do at the plate.

The kid who's really good said "coach all hitting is is you load, get the foot down and swing the bat. It's not brain surgery".

These are who we are trying to help and they have no idea what was said in this thread. It's one thing to know everything under the sun technically but it's another to be able to communicate the ideas effectively.

By the way I love how you take a holier than thou approach but never answer the key important question that TR keeps asking - what are your qualifications?

My experience. I can not speak for others.

I had have several mentors in this great game. One of them who I respect so much looked me in the eye's one day and said. "If you ever stop learning. If you ever think for one minute you know it all. If you ever stop trying to seek out better ways to help your players. If you ever stop seeking out ways to improve your ability to help your players. You are done. And so are your players."

So I constantly try to learn and keep an opened mind. What I thought was the gospel 10 years ago I no longer believe is. How did that happen? I kept my eyes open and I sought out newer and better ways to teach. I sought out those that have had success. I sought out those that had ideas different than me. I wanted to see for myself what it was all about. What I didnt buy in to I didnt buy. What I found to be good stuff I bought.

Now the key is being capable of taking a young man and what you have to offer and getting him to understand and apply what you are trying to teach him. Then that player must have a true desire to learn and grow as a hitter. They must have a work ethic and a true love of hitting.

I have constants in hitting. Those constants are things that every hitter must do to have success. Those constants are the things that every hitter does that allows them to have success. I understand that you can have a very flawed swing and still have success if you are simply more talented than your competition. But that same swing that allowed you to have success against inferior competition for your ability will fail you as the competition becomes as talented or even more talented than you are.

My goal is to teach a hitter what will allow him to have success. And then how to actually apply it to the game in order to have success. I do not think you can reach that second goal unless you have reached the first. They need to understand why. Then they need to learn how to apply.

Stance. Grip. Load / Trigger. Bat path. Core. Connection. Stretch. Balance. What is it son? Do you understand what we are talking about here? How can you teach it if the player does not understand it? How can you apply it if you have no idea what it actually is? How can you get the feedback you need as a hitter if you do not understand what is actually going on in the swing process? It would be like a nascar driver trying to explain to the crew chief what was going on with the car but he has no idea how the car actually works on the track.

Every kid does not start out at the same place as far as ability goes. Some can simply hit. Some can simply not hit. Some do certain things naturally that others have to be taught to do. But they all need to learn what they are doing and why they are doing it. And what they need to do and why they need to do it.

I do not post much on this forum because I find that I learn way more when I just read. I have had a great deal of success and have assisted some kids that have had a lot of success. And it was because I was capable of getting them to understand why and how.

Not sure if this post makes much sense. I will go back to reading and let you guys do your thing. Thanks

Several good posts by the coaches. The key message they talk about is teaching the "why and how" of hitting and how to convey it to various hitters. The why and how is what everybody wants to know but some refuse to discuss for fear of being exposed as frauds so they hide behind others or resort to one sentence answers. Coaches can't hide; they have young men to answer to on a daily basis. Those that offer explainations and why/how answers should be commended even if their answers you disagree with.

Coaches also know they have to field a team of at least 9 hitters at the same time and the object is to win. Style points don't count in the scorebook. With Fr/JV/V teams they can have 70 plus kids they are teaching and responsible for their program. Hitting is only one aspect of the game they have to teach.

Private hitting instructors...heres 70 kids to teach hitting to daily so jump after it because the season starts in a couple weeks. What...you can't teach hitting to 70 kids daily as you need at least 30 min to an hour per hitter and usually over a couple weeks or longer? Ok,so give me your 9 best then...what, they won't be ready because they won't have a handle on the theory of the swing? Can they at least bunt...what, you don't teach that? Can you you at least teach them how wear the uniform so they at least resemble ballplayers...what, you can't because you just wore shorts and visors in the slow pitch softball league?
What... you think we should forfeit the first 10 games and you'll let me know when you have 9 kids ready? Tell the parents and AD what...to be patient and you guarantee success? What, no guarantee the kids will actually hit in a game you say but they will all have pretty and technically sound swings? And they can only hit fastballs so if the opposing pitchers throw curveballs or sliders, all bets are off? Well, tell me just what are your credentials...ohh, you just prefer working with parents and players in understanding the swing. Can you get me some referalls or kids you've helped...ohh,none that I've heard of as you just do this as a hobby so there isn't any real pressure that the kids succeed.

Why and how...one without the other is useless. Most coaches attend clinics quite often in the pursuit of knowledge so to say most are close minded is simply a self serving lie. Why the need of some to constantly insult them is beyond me unless that party has a hidden agenda.

Bobby Tewks mentioned a student finally understanding what Bobby was teaching and the trial and error of teaching. That was a good post as he understands the process of teaching and coaching and how often it isn't a straight line or big leap to success but rather small steps while the student is coming to terms with what is being taught. Do all of his students take the same path to success? No as they will learn differently. Most can understand the theories of a good swing but WHY and HOW do we convey that info and what different methods we use is what parents really want to know. Otherwise reading this forum is simply a waste of their time.

I bought the last round...nearly broke the bank. Sideline is nice and shady. Kinda crowded so prime spots are at a premium.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
The kid who's really good said "coach all hitting is is you load, get the foot down and swing the bat. It's not brain surgery".

Coach, if this player were to instruct, how/what would he teach? I always make my players teach me... and I close my eyes and they have to tell me specifically what to do. The fact that this player is a stud doesn't mean he'll be a good instructor or coach. I kind of laughed when you used him as an example because I would imagine this all comes fairly natural to him... Like so many former MLB players who can do but not teach. (Not to say your player isn't a hard worker or anything like that, but juniors on area code teams are pretty special players.) In a game, "see the ball, hit the ball" is always good, but in a training environment there needs to be more detail, more precision, more intent. Perhaps there should be two threads from this. "Theory in Game vs Theory in Practice" and "Practical in Game vs Practical in Practice."

Tomorrow, can you ask your players specifically what they load? (And if time permits how they load it? Maybe throw in a "why" after each piece of the load...) I'm very curious to hear the answers from the different players.

Power,

Somehow I doubt you ever really learned anything new from Bluedog. You knew something already and posted it on this site and all Bluedog did was agree. He didn't teach you but simply agreed with you; you were the initial source of the idea or info.

I don't know everything and have admitted learning something everytime I read this website. Sorry, but I have forgotten more about the swing and hitting than anything Bluedog has demonstrated in his "lengthy" unoriginal posts. Learned from other posters, but not Bluedog.

Will Bluedog ever respond to questions or give explainations in detail? Doubtful, as that is not his agenda or role on this website. He is simply the court fool/jester but without the wit; a parrot that jumps from shoulder to shoulder repeating what he hears.

Once again Power, I enjoyed your explainations of the hips and the stretch/torque. While it was something I've mentioned before on this site, your explaination on how to feel it was very good and one that I had not seen. I am sure many parents and players would like you to go over how to achieve this in the swing as you have the ability to explain your thoughts. Are there drills you use or mental/verbal cues that have helped? Have simple explainations of what you are trying to achieve worked or have you had to break the components up so the player has a better grasp of the objective?

It's time for someone to shoo Bluedog out the backdoor/doggydoor so that something is said here that will really help parents and players get a better grasp of hitting.

Bobby Tewks,

Atta Babe....good explaination of how an instructor tries to convey an idea.

Doesn't matter if we agree or hate it; the point is it is one way of teaching that has worked for Bobby and his students.

That is what players and parents want to see. Good job, Bobby Tewks.

****Don't get the big head, Bobby. One "Ahhh @#$%" erases ten "atta babes" as you well know.LOL.

Bobby excellent point. There are things I have always done to help my players better understand what I am trying to teach them. One of the best ways to learn and understand is to teach. Jr's and Sr's instructing the Fr and Sophs at the cage while we watch and critique. My players working our camps teaching youth players. Sitting down with players and talking to them about their swing and the swing process itself.

How many times have you heard a coach say "Get your foot down early." Does the player really know what the coach is telling him? Does he know why he should? Does he understand why he was told that? What was the player doing that caused the coach to tell him that? It is pointless to know an extremely amount about the swing process , hitting , approach etc etc unless you can actually transfer that knowledge to those that need you to transfer it to.

I have seen some very successful coachs who were not nearly as knowledgeable about hitting but what they did know they were very very good at conveying to their players. They were very good at instilling confidence in their players. They were very good at assisting them in making adjustments to their swing and approach.

Bobby I enjoy your posts. I think its very clear you have been there and done that and are doing it. I can tell you I enjoy sitting down and talking hitting with my players. Especially the ones that have invested the time and effort over their hs career. There is not a whole lot more satisfying in this game than to here a player say "Coach thanks. I can feel exactly what you were talking about." And you see them have success.

I have always felt that teaching hitting was showing at the same time---remember that old phrase " a picture is worth a thousand words" ?

You cannot show how it is done with huge words and phrases--sometimes it just takes showing the hitter what he is doing wrong--teenagers at times do not grasp words and phrases but they grasp what they see real quickly