Theory hitting vs. Practical hitting

Is this popping up caused by hitting the bottom of the ball or an extreme upper-cut swing?

I can't see how a swing can be initiated without the 'hands dropping' to get the bat down into the zone or to the desired contact point.

There are many theories concerning hitting but only one high quality swing.

The great majority of swings being taught are flawed beyond reason. They have the hands dragging the bat through the zone side ways before bringing the bat forward. By this time, the hands are about even with the front hip or front foot as the bat head is entering the hitting zone.

The classic swing would have the batter attempting to make contact directly in front of his body. (Swing to your belly button) This is where the old expression comes from to 'watch the bat hit the ball'.

Contact is in a good line of sight. The swing is compact. The swing rides through the hitting zone for the greatest duration.

There are other fine points that apply to each individual such as a more closed or open stance.

The sequence is in my opinion

1) Develop stance establishing greatest potential energy

2) Power the bat down short to the zone and contact point.

3) Allow the hands to follow through.

This method helps to establish good contact when swinging and helps eliminate strike outs.

quote:

I can't see how a swing can be initiated without the 'hands dropping' to get the bat down into the zone or to the desired contact point.

Quincy I'm talking more along the lines of on the stride / trigger the hands go from a nice natural position up around the shoulder area to dropping down to an area just below the chest. All this movement is done before the batter starts the swing to release all the power in the swing. Basically his hands take an "L" shaped path to the ball.

What you're talking about is what I call driving the hands to the zone to hit. I don't want to take the chance of using the word drop to describe these two motions - the L shape on stride / trigger and the bringing the hands down to the hitting zone - in case they may associate the L shape as being good. I like saying drive because it gives the impression of generating power rather than getting through the zone.

Probably a little nitpicky in wording but none of my players have ever had a problem with it once they understood the two concepts of hand movement - one being bad and the other being good.

Hitting is very very difficult to talk about on a website---what is needed is visual and actual with a player--every player is different -- for me the best way is one on one with the instructor on the field or in the cage--I actually like live BP on the field so every pitch is different interms of location and movement

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I actually like live BP on the field so every pitch is different in terms of location and movement

I like it all. When I first see a kid I like tee work and soft toss so it's easier to isolate different areas. I think live BP (with a pitcher who can locate, hopefully) is the most beneficial overall.

While both approaches can be effective, the 'L' swing is later to the zone and only allows contact in front of the plate.

If you look at video or photos of hand position as the bat head comes forward, you can see what I'm saying.

The classic swing brings the bat down to waist level most often since that is where the average pitch would be located. It also allows the continuation down on a low pitch. Or if a higher pitch, the bat is still flexible enough to swat the ball to the outfield.

I prefer BP on the field also. You get instant feed back as to where the ball is traveling as compared to the 'feel' of good contact in the cage.

Coach2709,

The drop you speak of with the player popping up...not talking about a hitch with the hands during the stride that doesn't come back up early enough but rather a kid that drops his hands straight down while loading if I read you right. And if I'm still reading right, you don't want the kids to think of an "L shape" in the swing or handpath.

The broom drill does work with kids whose handpath is wrong and gives quick feedback when they are wrong or right.

****While I personally never liked a hitch in the swing,there have been alot of really great MLB hitters with a hitch. The key with all was when they started and finished the hitch.

While field BP is best, can really be hard in HS when you have Fr/JV/V squads to get time. We have to really stagger practice start times to get adequate fielld time. Varsity wins when push comes to shove. With the rain we've had, cage BP has had to suffice alot.

I'm like TRhit on this, web discussions on hitting without video is tough. Even with video everybody tends to have certain keys they look for; sometimmes everybody understands and sometimes everybody goes ??????

Quincy touched on what I consider to be a very important point.....And, nobody even gave him a mention for saying it....

Quincy, I noticed and I agree with you that the hands must drop in the swing....I do not consider that a swing flaw....I don't even look for what many call flaws in the swing....

I look at the sequencing of the body....How, and just as importantly, when do the body movements produce torque in the hips and hands.....Stretch can be substituted for the word, torque, if you wish....

How and when torque is produced also allows the body to hold the stretch by keeping the back hip and hands "loaded", as many call it....

Bluedog,

I like it...keep going. It's a good start.

Last sentence...not bad but I know you've got more to say than that. Let'r rip.

Coach2709, drills can help hitters to hit better....I'm not saying you were wrong....You are right....

Here's what I'm saying about drills....They are a quick fix, or a band-aid approach, to helping a player swing a bat better....

My agenda in teaching a player how to swing a bat is to get them as close to their potential as I possibly can, not just to get them better.....

So, High School Coaches are scrambling to get their players to hit better on a limited time basis....And, they're working with a team of players pretty much all at one time....

I'm working with a single player at a time and have as much time as I need....

Now, perhaps you need drills to coach your players....I don't....

My point in all this is that I don't understand it when Coaches come on here and bash me, saying things like you did on the other thread....This is a hitting thread and hitting is my interest....I don't make it a point to post on the Coach's thread about defense and other points of the game I don't really have a big interest in....

I understand why TRhit does this sort of stuff....His life goal is to follow me around and bash me....This stems from stuff a long time ago on here....I'm OK with it....And, it makes him happy.....

If I can help a player get some playing time because he can outhit his teammates because of something I taught him, he has learned baseball and life lessons, has he not?

Look, I quit trying to talk hitting with Coaches a long time ago....I simply found it a waste of my time and effort....I really am trying to help players and parents...

Bluedog,

I'm sure everybody applauds your intent in helping players and parents and the fact you work with individual students one on one. Often takes people other than the coach or parent to make inroads with a player and help fix their problems

Our collective issue is isn't the desire to help but the "how". I seriously doubt your are as cryptic with your students as your are on this board and don't simply say "sequence better" or "gotta improve your swing plane" to your students. What we are curious about is how do you go about getting your student to sequence better or improve his swing plane.

That is all anyone has really ever asked.

You say you don't like discussing hitting with coaches. Thats fine but there are still parents/players reading that may need more guidance than one line comments or catch phrases to accomplish what you claim to desire. Talk with them instead but not at them and you'll go along way to actually helping those you say you want to help.

Coach2709, perhaps you haven't read much of what I've posted....

I've explained stuff awhole lot on here over a period of time....Maybe you're just listening to the few who instigate mischief on here, I don't know....

That's all they're here for.....Not to help anyone....Many people don't post here, anymore, because of them.....

Wow I have been swamped the past two days. I don't know why but for some reason my school thinks I should still teach when baseball season is in full swing. Too bad I can't trust the kids to grade their own papers to help save time

I'm going to try and get back with everyone who has said something to me and hopefully I won't leave anyone out.

S. Abrams

I think we are on the same page in terms of the hand drop. It's definately not a hitch but a significant dropping to where you end up losing a lot of torque due to everything out of whack plus the body is no longer really providing the power.

I'm with you that I'm not a fan of a hitch but it can be a good tool / adjustment if you got a guy with super quick hands.

I also agree that getting on a website and writing about hitting is a very, very difficult thing to do. We each have our own way of describing things and we each have different levels of ability to explain things through writing.

With that in mind I ask Bluedog and Quincy what do you guys mean exactly by the hands have to drop in the swing? If you guys are talking about the downward path taken to get the barrel into the hittng zone then yes I will agree with you on that point and clarify that's what I call driving the hands - not dropping. Now if you are talking about something that Barry Bonds and a few others do then I understand what is going on and why they do it - I just think it's a terrible thing to teach a high school kid. They are trying to create more of an upward swing path to generate power / distance. They are power hitters and should do that but they are also freaks of nature that can do things that most people cannot do. That is why I believe this swing should not be taught to HS kids. They lack the overall strength and ability to master this swing.

In the other thread I said there is no such thing as the perfect swing and I still stand by that statement but I will add that each player can have a perfect swing just for them. Each player has their own strengths and weaknesses and therefore have to make slight adjustments to their swing. Overall the constants in the swing are the same.

Bluedog

As for the drills there is no way in the world they are band aids or quick fixes or not letting players reach their fullest potential. The concept / idea that I'm hearing you say is that when a hitter practices drills the effect is only going to be temporary. Would you say that is correct? If not please clarify for me. For right now I'm going to go with the assumption that I'm right.

Hitting is about trying to repeat the same mechanics over and over and over each time you hit. For whatever reason(s) a hitter will end up developing a flaw / bad habit in their swing. The drill is there for helping to correct that flaw when needed. There is no method in the world that will stop flaws from developing. They are going to happen because guys get tired through the season or small nagging injuries and start doing things differently. The drills are the best way to reinforce the proper mechanics to fix the flaws or help stave them off.

Simply - why do MLB players do drills before BP before games during the season and during the offseason? They know it works and if the best hitters in the game think drills work then it's good enough for me.

BP on the field is wonderful if you are getting ready for a game, fine tuning your swing or maintaining your swing - it is not the place where you go to fix flaws. The cage and hitting stations is the place to go to fix flaws or teach a swing to someone picking up the game. Teaching / fixing require massive number of swings and you can't get them taking BP on a field. But you can get them hitting off a tee, doing soft toss, front screen toss, whiffle balls and things like that. These drills (when done correctly) create muscle memory so the body can take over when out on the field hitting or taking BP on the field.

Bluedog I agree with S. Abrams in that you probably do have some bits of knowledge to add to the mix but you have to realize that your way isn't the only way just as mine isn't as well. On here you say things that are not clear nor precise enough to be of any help. Plus you criticize people like myself saying we are doing things wrong although overall I've been pretty happy with the way my teams hit the ball. Now that implies that what I do works although you think what I'm doing is not making them as good as what you could do with them. You give the impression that if a player follows what you teach then they can be this awesome hitter but I can't see where you have posted anything that would indicate that. All you do is say a bunch of stuff using big words that most people won't understand in terms of hitting. I don't care what others have said about you because I'm going to make my own assesment of who you are and what I think of you.

In all honesty you sound like Yardbird in the pitching forum who happens to be a Mike Marshall disciple. You're not as bad as he is but there are similarities. You get on here and say a bunch of stuff using big words that are difficult to understand. You act like you have all the answers although very few people do / follow the same advice you give. Lastly, you can't / don't list anybody of relevance that has been helped / taught / coached by you so we can see if what you do works.

You said you don't like discussing hitting with coaches but only with parents / players - is that because they may not really know anything so they listen to you whereas a coach knows better?

A high school coach has his hands tied so much by state rules that they can't offer the amount of help needed in order to maximize what needs to be taught. A player who wants to go to the next level has to get outside help from a good private team and / or personal coach. I have no problem with personal coaches and never have as long as they know what they are doing and don't undermine what I teach. Every kid who's played for me that had a personal coach helped them to reinforce or add to what I taught.

If you've been successful in what you do then that is awesome because that means players have advanced in the game. That is one of (and quite possibly) the only thing we have in common - we both want our players to advance and succeed. I know what I've taught and still teach works. I don't see me making wholesale changes to anything I do unless I feel confident that the change will make for better hitters. If someone gets on here and would rather listen to you instead of me that's cool - I have no problem with that. I still hope that the player gets better.

I think 'stretch' better explains the load. The muscles used to bring the bat forward should be stretched by the opposing muscles so that the greatest effect can be gained by the subsequent 'stretched' muscles contracting in the swing.

Torque and torsion are two expressions of external forces affecting the center. Since no external force is used in the load, I think the expression is misleading. Torque is generated by the bat in the swing causing the followthrough.

Good hand-eye coordination makes hitting easier. In some hitters, the swing plane or path may lose the parabola desired. This will cause less accuracy and a longer time to bring the bat to the ball. A sharp parabolic swing on a consistent plane is most effective.

Coaching should be a four year journey rather than single year uses of talent available. Depending on the established program, a freshman could be introduced to the more effective swing. The sophomore should be using the swing and improvements can be made. Juniors and seniors should be ready to face the hardest throwing pitchers the district or league has to oppose them.

quote:

You said you don't like discussing hitting with coaches but only with parents / players - is that because they may not really know anything so they listen to you whereas a coach knows better?

That's quite a knock on parents who spend alot of time researching and learning hitting technique to help their kids....

Actually, there are many parents who study hitting on boards like this one, and many others, who I believe are more knowledgeable on hitting than the coaches their kids play for....

All you have to do is listen to them post on here to know that......

Of the ten most knowledgeable hitting people I know, two are coaches, and eight are parents...

If I taught one of your players, it would not be to reinforce what you teach...

Next time you see me, Power and Mr. Tewks strike up a conversation on here, enter the fray....After all, it could get interesting...

Bluedog,

Obviously, you have issues and differences with the traditional methods and drills coaches use. You say that if you taught one of Coach2709's players you would not reinforce what he teaches....no problem with that at all as he readily admitted he shares your desire that players improve.

Instead of Coach2709's methods/drills and what he teaches, what would you teach and how would you teach it to one of his players? "What" is nice but the "how" is what is ultimately needed for the player to improve. What can you share to one of the coach's players or other players reading this board?

Sequencing obviously will be a key area you probably focus on based on your previous post. How do you go about instructing the decent HS hitter to get better by improving his sequencing? That just one area but I'm sure you have a few key things you look for...what are they and how do you help players in those areas?

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

The purpose of drills are to

2 - work on developing a shorter stroke

Why would I want a "shorter stroke"? What is different about this swing, exactly? Are you just fixing casting? Or something else?

A short stroke is a faster stroke, able to catch up with a 90+ pitch after sitting on a 83mph Change.

In order to recognize the difference between the two in a game situation, you need to be able to wait and read the pitch. If you wait, you better have a short quick stroke to turn on an inside FB.

foridafan,

Excellent example of the practical side of hitting.

Worthy of an "Atta Babe".

Even tougher is looking for 90+ and getting that 80 mph change. Trevor Hoffman has had a real nice career making hitters look really bad with what, a 78 mph change. Vapor locked more hitters than I care to count over the years.