Thoughts to pitching injuries

I enjoyed it! May not agree 100% but like your approach. As a former, aged, athlete and martial artist I'm a big believer in the importance of "Balance" in all things. I certainly concur that many, many injuries are caused by a general lack of specific training/warm-up preparation.

One must "prepare" proper mechanics, prepare your body using a good balance of recovery, training and competition. You have it right on another point also, don't allow yourself to accept limitations. The mind is a powerful motivator.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. It's refreshing to see someone lay it on the line and address a very big problem in the sport.

"It's refreshing to see someone lay it on the line and address a very big problem in the sport."

Thanks Prime9.

It is truly just that...putting it out there. Those that see it, please treat it as a "buffet", as one of my mentors likes to express it. Please take what you want. One thing I have come to understand, and it has taken a bit of time to come to this.... that I really don't care what people think of me...I do put alot of thought to all that was expressed in the video. Right or wrong...something can be learned. I jokingly tell people that one of my mentors has learned a great deal from me....that being how maybe you don't want it done.
We are so quick to critique and knock down things because of the walls we can hide behind? When will we truly listen to "great people" and apply these great thoughts and learn. I am NOT one of those greats....but wasn't it Edison who said "I didnt fail 2000 times, I found 2000 ways it didnt work." or something like that.
I really believe the content in this 3 part rant is valid. I wouldn't have put my face and name on it if I didn't or if I was not confident in it's validity. Common Sense brings about understanding and simplicity . With both, comes Achievement.
Why hasn't anyone put this concept into their instruction of things? Why does common sense say that we place a great deal of our limitations towards those that get hurt? I would say that a good portion of those that get hurt, are not "all in".(Preparation) "To get to heights you have never been, you have to do things you have never done". If everyone could or wanted to become a major leaguer, this planet would be a boring place.(Not for me though)

Why do we let the experiences of slow gazelles frighten the heck or limit the abilities of the gazelles that survive? Why do we consider the slow gazelle in our equation of pursuing greatness? (If baseball pitchers where gazelles.)

A majority of those that don't make it, become outstanding people in other fields making life pleasant for everyone else. I am ranting again..sorry.
We can't panic about pitching problems until we address the love and "buy in" of those involved.If you get hurt in the pursuit of excellence? Bummer. What would hurt more? Getting closer because of your "no limits" approach, or never even getting close and wishing your life was better if you only did more and realizing you were always capable. The latter would be torture. LISTEN to the great ones. To listen, one can better do so by being silent. No coincidence that listen and silent share the same letters. (This helped me with my wife also.)

Fred Corral
apcorral@memphis.edu
901-678-4139

Fred, I thought part 2 on extension was OUTSTANDING... Thanks (I'll watch part 3 later)

Fred- Sent you an email

Fred,

That was a great presentational effort and many of the things you said rang true about training and pre-game preparation on how it relates to soft tissue injuries and how it helps bullet proofs the athlete.

I believe your title here is inappropriate when dealing with the category of injuries that end careers and potential at any level, the connective tissue and inner joint injuries.

I’ll guess that by linking your dislike of extension with pro-nation (pronation) that you to are also a traditional centripetal mechanics instructor like everybody else.
Extension only means one thing in Kinesiology to extend a joint thru concentric muscle action not what you and all others have mistakenly named, what they are trying to convey is actually drive force length and to confuse the two issues leaves people with the false contention that the triceps are contracting in the traditional motion that extends the elbow when they are not and one of the disconnections in Kinetic chain with the traditional mechanic and why this length is set(distance from glove leg) and cannot be changed in anybody unless done by rotational add not elbow extension.

Your acceptance of the traditional mechanic is typical and why the injuries keep occurring at basically the same rates at your level of baseball and above. The injury rates that have skyrocketed are with youth pitchers and the reasons are known, it’s because of the now year round play of youth pitchers who can not train like adults!!!

You mention weight lifting as the cause of injuries in that you mentioned nothing else makes me believe you believe UCL surgeries are linked to this inadequacy when in truth UCL injuries are a direct result of improper force (traditional mechanics) application that is totally preventable along with labrum grind and many other serious injuries.
I see by your diagrams that you believe in general weight lifting that actually produces the imbalances that you claim you are trying to alleviate. While general weight lifting gives you a balanced pretty physique it does not give you the “sport specific” resistance training that is required of athletes that perform special skills and a main tenet in sports physiology and exacerbates the injurious problems though proprioceptive misfiring and malpressured muscle power from overlapping-contractions. When will we learn the proper techniques? The glove arm does not perform the same task as the ball arm. The left side of the torso does something completely different than the right side and so on.

quote:

“Common Sense brings about understanding and simplicity . With both, comes Achievement”

This thought is why we are in the mess we are now in and is anecdotal.
Noley did it this way so it must be right

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“When will we truly listen to "great people" and apply these great thoughts and learn”

Fred! if you really believe this then I strongly urge you to go to DrMikeMarshall.com and learn from the leading expert in the world on overhead throwing athletes and injury prevention. You will then be equipped to do something about this growing and glaring problem. Until you do, count yourself as one of the injurious mechanics promoters.

I hope you take this in a better light than I took it when I was told the same thing before I made some changes in my thinking.

Lon J. Fullmer
Saddleback Valley Baseball

Mr Fullmer,
I haven't a clue what the heck your talking about. I wonder who here does. I have spoken to and with Dr. Marshall. I like his passion as well.
Now with all your jargon, you have simply made my point more clear. We make things way too difficult.
The question I would like for you to answer is with all the big words you bring about by your ego.....please answer this....How did pitchers ever get by...without Dr Marshall, Yourself, me and anyone who has a passion for seeing young men move forward toward their dreams of pitching in professional baseball?
Hopefully I am not wrong in including you in that question.
I have taken your attempt to ego the heck out of me rather well I think. Word bully someone else please.
I might add that in the same manner you are asking me to possibly change after 30+ years of loving and working through the process. I will not find myself with the same fate of those that bought Nikes and beamed themselves up to the spaceship trailing Haley's Comet. They were also probably hit with large "might seem to be true big word jargon for a superior breed of pitching species brought about by the ego". No way buddy! Hope you take that one well

Coach Corral,

Thought your "Cycle of Dumb @ss-ness" was brilliant.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Corral:
Mr Fullmer,
I haven't a clue what the heck your talking about. I wonder who here does. I have spoken to and with Dr. Marshall. I like his passion as well.
Now with all your jargon, you have simply made my point more clear. We make things way too difficult.
The question I would like for you to answer is with all the big words you bring about by your ego.....please answer this....How did pitchers ever get by...without Dr Marshall, Yourself, me and anyone who has a passion for seeing young men move forward toward their dreams of pitching in professional baseball?
Hopefully I am not wrong in including you in that question.
I have taken your attempt to ego the heck out of me rather well I think. Word bully someone else please.
I might add that in the same manner you are asking me to possibly change after 30+ years of loving and working through the process. I will not find myself with the same fate of those that bought Nikes and beamed themselves up to the spaceship trailing Haley's Comet. They were also probably hit with large "might seem to be true big word jargon for a superior breed of pitching species brought about by the ego". No way buddy! Hope you take that one well

Welcome to the HSBBW.

Fred

quote:

”I haven't a clue what the heck your talking about.”

See what the kids are up against?
This is already a known factor just by what you put out.
Take each sentence and figure it out by doing what I asked you, then participate or participate by not knowing what I’m talking about, it’s your choice.

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“I wonder who here does”

I get the same rant from all diehard traditional instructors and others at first!
I have only been here for 3 years and many are taliking about many of the subjects
that Dr.Marshall has taught us.

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“I have spoken to and with Dr. Marshall. I like his passion as well.”

This means he spoke back to you, I can see you took it poorly?
What is the most important thing you learned?

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“Now with all your jargon, you have simply made my point more clear. We make things way too difficult”

It is only difficult for adults who are indoctrinated into believing what they are doing is not the problem when it comes to injuries. I have 9 cyo’s that understand the information once presented to them and not one of them said my “Ego” was in play.

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”please answer this....How did pitchers ever get by”

You’re the one saying that the injury rate was up 700 percent and I could care less about professionals.

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“Hopefully I am not wrong in including you in that question”

I used to be one of the wrong headed individuals

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“I have taken your attempt to ego the heck out of me rather well I think.”

My Id has nothing to do with the heads up I gave you, the kids are!!!!

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“Word bully someone else please”

We were talking about injuries not writing technique and you have still not said anything that convinces me that you are going to actually look into it beyond what you here from the masses and by my introducing you to some of these scary words leaves you a little curious I have done my job and hope you will respond to the actual subject.

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“I might add that in the same manner you are asking me to possibly change after 30+ years of loving and working through the process”

You have been destroying arms with inadequate information as did I for that long before I had this informational bucket of water dumped on my head! I took it the same way until I got curious and tested the information!

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“I will not find myself with the same fate of those that bought Nikes and beamed themselves up the spaceship trailing Haley's Comet”

Yet this is where you are at right now and refuse to see it.
What did you take from your conversation with Dr.Marshall?

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“No way buddy!”

Yet, you are now thinking about it! “Fear ceases all forward movement” and I hope this does not scare you away!!!!!!? I am only here to rid this injurious plague.

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“Hope you take that one well”

I have heard it all, nothing that is said that has nothing to do with what we were talking about means I will quit on you, you are to important and as long as you are not a member of Heaven’s gate and following Hale-Boop then following Halley’s will be alright.

Now let’s talk real injury prevention!

Yardbird

Wow. Reading this stuff has given me a sudden urge to go shovel my driveway.

Yardbird has the distinct knack of taking a post and eventually making it no more fun to read.

You'll see.

quote:

Originally posted by igball:
Wow. Reading this stuff has given me a sudden urge to go shovel my driveway.

Unless it's sleeted the stuff in your driveway will be lighter on the shovel than the post previous to yours. I'd rather talk to a Moonie than chat with Yardbird.

Originally posted by Yardbird:

quote:

Now let’s talk real injury prevention!

I'm all ears. It seems to me that Fred Corral is the only one giving his opinion on this topic, trying to help others. It seems to me that you are just trying to prove that you are superior than everyone with an opinion. But, I haven't heard a peep out of you of information that actually matters, just bashing someone trying to help.

Waste of time reading through this, I suppose.

Coach,
Very good series. Enjoyed watching all 3 parts. I'll be seeing you in a couple of weeks. 17 days to opening day. See you then

Dan's Dad

COACH CORRAL,

I viewed the majority of the three You-Tube videos that you posted. Thanks for sharing. My son is a senior in HS (OF/RHP), and has battled his share of arm injuries in the past. While I think that I have a decent grasp of pitching mechanics, I'm always open to hearing ideas and advice from others...much appreciated!

Yardbird (COACH FULMER),

I've read many of your posts on the pitching forum and your battles with other members on this site. No doubt you're very passionate about your beliefs and the teachings of Dr. Marshall. I actually went as far as watching a few of Dr. Marshall's drills on You-Tube last week, and a video of a then 12 year old LHP that utilizes Marshall Mechanics. Afterwards, I simply left it alone.

Today, I read your response to Coach Corral's post. It aroused my curiosity, so I visited Dr. Marshall's website. I sat through a nearly eighteen minute video of Dr. Marshall reviewing the mechanics that he used in the early 70's compared to his current suggested mechanics. I followed that video up with a ten minute presentation on Jeffrey Sparks, a student of Dr. Marshall that saw some time with the Rays a few years back. I was very impressed with the video, and I couldn't understand why this pitcher didn't stay up in the Bigs? I decided to look up his numbers...he had an amazing 12.17 K's per 9 innings. Do the Big Clubs really have something against Mike Marshall as he stated on the video? So I looked at Sparks' BB's per 9 innings, and it was 8.90! We all know you can't walk a batter per inning and stay up with the big boys.

Why isn't anybody utilizing Dr. Marshall's pitching mechanics in professional baseball today? I would assume that MLB clubs with MILLIONS of dollars invested in their pitchers would receive advice from Mike Marshall with open arms? I'd love nothing more than to have my son compete on the mound and have no fear of arm problems...We parents, especially those that have gone through UCL injuries/surgeries with their boys are all in the same boat. Most of us would be happy to accept your advice Coach Fulmer/Yardbird, especially if you can back it up with names of prominent players currently utilizing Marshall Mechanics with success, but this is JMO.

JH,

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“I'm all ears”

Ears can hear but they can’t think, some times the mouth works before the thinking by reacting emotionally to soon, I am a victim of this poor technique.

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“It seems to me that Fred Corral is the only one giving his opinion on this topic”

Like I told him I enjoyed his legitimate effort but do not think he understands why the serious injuries occur. I hope he comes back to discuss it further but I have witnessed complete shutout before by well meaning but stubborn high level coaches that will not listen to the reasons these devastating injuries happen and just continue what they do.

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“trying to help others”

This is my quest but apparently my tact is inadequate.

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“It seems to me that you are just trying to prove that you are superior than everyone with an opinion.”

This is not my intention I assure you, I usually only post when a parent is concerned with their Childs predicament in regards to injuries or I see something glaringly wrong.

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“But, I haven't heard a peep out of you of information that actually matters”

Well the thread just started and as usual when we begin getting to some detail everybody runs for the hills and the thread dies, I’m willing to discuss the issues but it always turns into personal name calling and intentional misunderstanding by changing the subject of injuries. The information that really matters is that these high level coaches are aware of where to go if they choose to do something about this problem if not they can choose to ignore it because they have so much precious time wrapped up in their personal journeys that nothing else matters. The information was given then he turned it into a cult lesson.

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“just bashing someone trying to help”

I only told him his effort was commendable but just short on actual injury information other than weight lifting and the extention issue that has nothing to do with injuries.
He took it like all coaches at his level and will probably not be back to discuss it.

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”Waste of time reading through this, I suppose”

See what I mean?

No I have no idea what you mean. I really do think you may know what you are talking about, but I just haven't heard it. Please stop defending yourself and post something relevant. If you feel that someone has provided inadequate or incorrect information pertaining to something that could be helpful to others, then post what you think will be helpful. You have taken up a lot of bandwith proving others wrong, but I haven't seen any material from you that actually corrects the matter. You are like a defense lawyer without facts...you tend to just ramble on with no ground to stand on. Provide some facts, show us some examples, and maybe people will stop reacting the way they do and start listening to you. Until then, it's hogwash, and your posts are a waste of my time because I don't learn anything other than the fact that you have a decent vocabulary and you are very insecure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yardbird:
JH,

Like I told him I enjoyed his legitimate effort but do not think he understands why the serious injuries occur. I hope he comes back to discuss it further but I have witnessed complete shutout before by well meaning but stubborn high level coaches that will not listen to the reasons these devastating injuries happen and just continue what they do.

The information was given then he turned it into a cult lesson.

He took it like all coaches at his level and will probably not be back to discuss it.
QUOTE]

Yardbird,
You are a real piece of work. I appreciate your thoughts and comments to bait me in responding. I plan to respond around my work schedule of coaching a pitching staff. I dont mind putting my stamp on my beliefs. My beliefs, not someone else's. These are my thoughts. I have plenty of mentors who have shown me what passion is about and that is what I am thankful for. I am not the product of other instructors, but of who I have been fortunate enough to coach. I don't read things because I don't have time with other things outside my current thoughts. My videos are what I currently think. I hopefully will continue to evolve. With that being said and I might re-edit this.

It is not about me.

I want to know why, if every pitching philosophy out there goes to preventing pitching injuries? Why don't we consider all the facts. Some people just won't make it. Some people call it good/bad luck. Some call it fate. Most will come to the reality that they allowed limitations to keep them from excelling. Some don't work hard at all for the result of greatness and complain that greatness never fell in their lap.

This is a product of the internet. Quick information. "Come to my 2 day seminar and get certified to instruct my life long passion." There is no personal time placed in all this new information. No trial and error. No learning for ourselves. We see a pitcher throw hard and sign for millions and becomes the guy we all feel the need to replicate. Replicate his work ethic, his heart,and his drive, not his delivery.

It is very hard to come up with a new idea that others have not thought of. Coming up with your own comes with time and in doing so you take ownership and it becomes part of you. I would like to know what Yardbird thinks. I know what Marshall thinks. I have an idea what MLB thinks of what Marshall thinks. We must note that money is King. MLB has alot of it. 1.4 billion is spent on pitching, 400 million is on the disable list, I have been told. If you are correct in your thought process, they would agree with you and I would not feel the need to respond to you.(This may be my last response to you) You need to stop breaking down people's sentences like some Hannibal Lector wanna be and stick to the info. You didn't watch the videos. You found out that I wasn't a Marshall guy and went into promotion mode.

You need to be Beethoven not a Easter Lilly.

I have spent the last 20 years trying to be the best pitching coach Fred Corral can become. In this process, I have asked myself what brings about the best in the athletes I have been blessed to coach. If you take away their fear, you take away their limitations, they will become great. Not everyone will be hall of famers, but all have a chance to be. Statistics show that there is a percentage of them that will not make it...It is my hope that I will not be a factor in keeping that percentage down.

The info is a buffet. Take what you want. Throw up if you need to. I really don't mind. I do mind about those that keep us down. It is stuff like this that in the big scheme makes us number two.

Be Beethoven Yardbird.

Now let's enjoy coaching!

I have one simple question. What professional pitchers (minors or MLB) utilize Marshall's technique 100%? Marshall has been at it thirty years. There must be many of these pitchers starring at the professional level.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Corral:

We see a pitcher throw hard and sign for millions and becomes the guy we all feel the need to replicate. Replicate his work ethic, his heart,and his drive, not his delivery.

bsb1247,

quote:

“No doubt you're very passionate about your beliefs and the teachings”

I pretty much after 25 years of teaching the traditional methods got sick and tired or seeing the carnage on families from the pitching injuries on youth players and decided to do something about it and luckily the only qualified person Dr.Marshall had already done the work, all others were teaching the same thing’s I was even the qualified ones.

quote:

“Do the Big Clubs really have something against Mike Marshall as he stated on the video?”

You must realize that unlike other sports (slowly changing though) where the athletes normally come out with a higher education, baseball high draftees do not get this education, they are the drinking duddies who get the high level professional jobs when they hang em up and I feel like after talking to enough people about this that they all feel like Dr.Marshall is just a know it all and quack making it look like academic envy. Marshall also was one of the leading developers of free agency and the players union so this works against him also. He also tells it like it is scientifically and this is never received well You should wonder why he has never been hired by a MLB team? He is virtually Black balled out of the industry.
Can you imagine a pitching staff that only needs 3 starters and 9 total pitchers because there mechanics are non-injurius? This would allow for 5 or 6 more field players.
In the Sparks case he was doing fine until he told a reporter that Marshall trained him!
Larry Rothchild, the Rays pitching coach at the time actually visited Marshall at his research facility years earlier and went away shaking his head and still has not implemented one thing he learned, now we get to see him not help the Yankees pitchers.
You might wonder why Sparks was not given the ball when he was demoted and then soon released. This is how the subjective sports proceed.

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“So I looked at Sparks' BB's per 9 innings, and it was 8.90! We all know you can't walk a batter per inning and stay up with the big boys”

This is the then and current philosophy, when you get behind capitulate and throw a fastball. Marshall wants you to throw the toughest pitch to hit at this point. Marshall has proven that walks do not hurt you if you do not capitulate and these pitchers end up with a lower ERA if they are actually not wild. Sparks was not wild and was constantly fighting his catcher and coaches about pitch sequencing. Marshall pitchers never throw a straight pitch and with this side to side movement umpires actually have a tough time calling strikes, I have witnessed this in person. Sparks had the same incredible strike out ratio in the MiLB.

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”Why isn't anybody utilizing Dr. Marshall's pitching mechanics in professional baseball today?”

There are! and every year there are more but you must remember they are professionals and these guys keep advantageous information to themselves to the detriment of youth pitchers. The Cardinals development crew was looking into this and actually had a full Crowstep delivery pitcher named Joe Williams pitching in AA but when the big club managers found out they released him and squashed the attempt.

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“I would assume that MLB clubs with MILLIONS of dollars invested in their pitchers would receive advice from Mike Marshall with open arms?”

The owners listen to their presidents and general managers because they do not have that much baseball experience so these good old boys keep Marshall’s information from advancing probably due to past verbal sparing with these type A personalities.
On message boards I have to deal with imature posters who add nothing to the discussion by trying to sabotage the discussions with their snotty comments.

quote:

“I'd love nothing more than to have my son compete on the mound and have no fear of arm problems”

I don’t think the kids think have any fear of this until it happens and parents should feel the way you do because it is a huge problem and much bigger than the secrecy around injuries because of advancement concerns allows to come out.

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“We parents, especially those that have gone through UCL injuries/surgeries with their boys are all in the same boat.”

Yes and until it actually happens there is little concern with most, this particular injury is being produced with younger and younger kids as more and more useless competitions are added during the fall and winter and they are 100% not necessary with proper mechanics.
The fix is so easy that it’s ridiculous!!! You only need to bring the ball up the back to driveline height with your hand under the ball instead of on top of it giving your Humerus a chance to get it’s first 90 degrees of outwards rotation at the back instead of off to the side making you bounce the forearm backwards micro tearing the UCL with every pitch. The problem is traditional pitching coaches call this “pie throwing” and will not let their pitchers perform this mechanic. Most pitchers after this surgery go right back to the same mechanics that previously produced this outcome, only now this new (actually old tendon) UCL has no ability to repair itself due to not being able to revascularize so it degrades even faster than the original.

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“Most of us would be happy to accept your advice especially if you can back it up with names of prominent players”

This is the problem! Where does it come in from the top down or the bottom up?
I’m covering the bottom up and am running into a wall when they enter High school tryouts. Catch 22. Professionals piece meal it which is OK if they train and use the top half mechanics but they are secretive or non accepting just like Fred who stated after 30 years of doing it his way, no way is he changing anything.
Marshall used his top half mechanics in the mid seventies and was considered for the Cy Young 5 times, this should be considered.

quote:

“currently utilizing Marshall Mechanics with success, but this is JMO”

These pitchers don’t usually go to the right place for help once they are injured but some find the information and make small adjustments that help. Roy Halladay attained Marshalls DVD after years of arm problems, Brett Cecil has it also but they never use all the info and revert. Like I said the information is gaining momentum.

I appreciate your concern and cordial response, this problem must be eliminated and I hope Fred comes back. We will see.

Yardbird

It looks like Yardbird is saying there's a baseball conspiracy against Marshall.

LOL. That was the most ridiculous post I've ever seen on HSBBWeb. So the ENTIRE population of people involved with Major League Baseball blackballed Marshall? And now you are preaching a conspiracy theory that they don't want some "quack doctor" helping them with pitching?

Tell it to someone else. I'm no expert, but what you just said is absolutely absurd. I don't believe any of it and I hope you haven't brainwashed anyone else to believe it either.

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The Cardinals development crew was looking into this and actually had a full Crowstep delivery pitcher named Joe Williams pitching in AA but when the big club managers found out they released him and squashed the attempt.

It wasn't his inability to get hitters out after missing three-plus seasons due to injury? He also didn't make an Indy team the following year.

A few years ago my son had the above mentioned Joe Williams as a travel coach. He also was trying to get back into baseball via the Marshall route. He was a true believer and I would watch him go through his work outs with all the dedication you could imagine. At one time I asked him why no pitcher in MLB used these techniques. His answer was that Marshall is being black balled. I found it very sad, the same way you feel when someone you like falls into the hands of a cult and they stop using their brain and rely on a wayward faith. This post proves that true believers are a stubborn breed and while you have to admire their dedication and passion, you also have to question their judgement.
He never made it back and the last I heard about his pitching was his velocity maxed out at 84.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne...ug=jp-marshall051007

Just to point something out. I know the Marshall guys have said that Marshall used his complete - upper half - mechanics when he pitched. If you look at the picture of Marshall pitching in the above article, I see two things right off hand that are not part of what he teaches today.

First of all, his shoulders are parellel to the ground and his arm is in a very traditional position at what appears to be foot plant. Marshall pitchers are taught to have the arm high above the head with shoulders tilted to the glove side arm. This is supposed to help them use the Lats and Tricepts in delivery of the ball. Sure looks like Marshall will be using his pecs to bring his arm forward here.

Secondly, Marshall pitchers are taught to have their forearm and wrist in a fully supinated position prior to delivery - ie, taking the ball out of the glove with the hand under the ball. This is so there is no other way to deliver the ball except to pronate it. Marshall looks like he is holding the ball in a pronated position prior to delivery. Maybe he can and did, but I don't see much of a way for him to pronate that pitch from the extremely pronated position he is holding it in this picture. Maybe he just held his wrist and forearm in this pronated position throughout his delivery. Either way, it is not what is taught now by the Marshall camp.

I point these things out because the Marshall camp (not just you Yard) uses Marshall himself as an example of his mechanics being used in the Major Leagues. They say he is an example and the reason he set all the records he did was because of his perfected upper half mechanics he himself used when he was pitching. I don't see that to be the case in this picture.

From the article, it appears that Marshall doesn't want just "part" of his mechanics taught but rather all.
Meanwhile, the followers use some tenets (IMO not all Marshall tenets as they existed before he came up with this stuff), their students still produce the high leg kick, etc. They do not use full Marshall mechanics.

Lots of good points made here, while I don't agree with all of them, I do beleive that most of us would like to move in the same direction, which is trying to minimize injuries. That's a good thing.

Making most people feel like they are idiots because they do not subscribe fully to one's theories when they don't do it themselves is getting old.




JMO.

TPM,

Interesting article. Thanks for posting.

Fred Corral,

quote:

“The information was given then he turned it into a cult lesson”

You gave no information about injuries other than get strong, meaning you had no real injury information and you come back with personal attacks instead of legitimate discourse like all who want to dodge the discussion. What a surprise.

quote:

“You are a real piece of work”

It’s not about me or you it’s about the kids and yes I am proud of my parents.

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“I appreciate your thoughts and comments to bait me in responding”

I want your input, you are important.

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“I dont mind putting my stamp on my beliefs. My beliefs, not someone else's.

If your beliefs are injurious and wish to remain this way just ignore any good information and do not test it

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“I have plenty of mentors who have shown me what passion is about and that is what I am thankful for.”

I was not talking about your passion, only your thoughts on injuries, this is not about you remember?

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“I am not the product of other instructors”

This is a dubious statement at best! We are all effected by what we see and hear and it’s not about you anyway and what about those mentors in the previous statement?

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“I don't read things because I don't have time with other things outside my current thoughts”

This explains a lot, this is not about you remember

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My videos are what I currently think. I hopefully will continue to evolve.

How can you evolve if- “I don't read things because I don't have time with other things outside my current thoughts”-you are evolving as we all are, you’re here aren’t you.

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“It is not about me.”

So then quit talking about you and cover the issue I raised

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”I want to know why, if every pitching philosophy out there goes to preventing pitching injuries? “

This is the problem they do not, mechanics have been stuck in the same rut for a hundred years.

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“Why don't we consider all the facts”

What facts? Don’t you realize that’s what I’m doing here.

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“Some people just won't make it”

I believe playing at your level, they have made it, quit worrying about professionals.

quote:

“Some people call it good/bad luck”

They are wrong everything has reason

quote:

“Some call it fate” [quote]
These folks have few scientific beliefs.
[quote] “ Most will come to the reality that they allowed limitations to keep them from excelling”

This is only partially true, there are thousands who had no limitations that do not play above your high level. I have come to the realization that you are obsessed with the professional baseball but agree with your assesment in general.

quote:

“Some don't work hard at all for the result of greatness and complain that greatness never fell in their lap”

What does any of this have to do with the ideas I posed.

quote:

”This is a product of the internet. Quick information”

Careful here, this is how we started this thread.

quote:

" There is no personal time placed in all this new information. No trial and error. No learning for ourselves.

I agree with you here and disagree. It takes all kinds.

quote:

“We see a pitcher throw hard and sign for millions and becomes the guy we all feel the need to replicate”

These pitchers are not replicable by pitchers who do not have the genetic ability to do so.

quote:

“Replicate his work ethic, his heart, and his drive, not his delivery”

Now your talking. This is good but this was not my concern.

quote:

”It is very hard to come up with a new idea that others have not thought of.”

This what I’m telling you Dr.Marshall has done and it was difficult but makes perfect sense after you check it out.

quote:

“I would like to know what Yardbird thinks”

Yardbird was you for 25 years, now he is something else.
Then let’s talk instead of squabble. I can’t get anybody to dicuss at length here accept CAdad, prime9, HSballcoach and BOF, everybody else just wants to make driveby derogatory commenmts.

quote:

“I know what Marshall thinks”

Not sure here, lets discuss why injuries really occur.

quote:

“I have an idea what MLB thinks of what Marshall thinks.”

It’s looking like you think the same way ?

quote:

“We must note that money is King” MLB has alot of it. 1.4 billion is spent on pitching, 400 million is on the disable list.

All the more reason to get this right for the youth players who do not have this problem with trying to keep their jobs by staying in line.

quote:

:”If you are correct in your thought process, they would agree with you”

It is a fact that they do not, they do not train their or develop pitchers anyway, the players are left to their own devices and they many are heading that way now.

quote:

“.(This may be my last response to you)”

I hope not, you are to important to get off this easy. If you are not willing to talk about injuries then this may be your best course.

quote:

“You need to stop breaking down people's sentences like some Hannibal Lector wanna be and stick to the info”

“What did the farmer say Clarice” – by answering your sentences, there can be no mistake in sticking to the info. You need only shorten yours to get short ones out of me.

quote:

“You didn't watch the videos.”

I watched all 3 and was wondering how to apply the “P’s” in the discussion but I figured I would just stay with my original suggestions. Like I said before I really enjoyed them.

quote:

“You found out that I wasn't a Marshall guy and went into promotion mode”

I new you were not because all are not, it was a slam dunk when you installed the word injuries and then did not cover it. This is my only disappointment in them.

quote:

”You need to be Beethoven not a Easter Lilly”

This is not about me! And I’m playing this subject like Frosty, Lee Michaels drummer.

quote:

”I have spent the last 20 years trying to be the best pitching coach Fred Corral can become. In this process, I have asked myself what brings about the best in the athletes I have been blessed to coach”

This is not about you! And if you are not using most of Marshalls top half tenets then the above sentence is a bit lacking.

quote:

“If you take away their fear, you take away their limitations, they will become great”

You can not become great if you are constantly battling injurious affect.

quote:

“Not everyone will be hall of famers, but all have a chance to be”

This is very far from the truth but keeps motivational speaking alive.

quote:

“ Statistics show that there is a percentage of them that will not make it”

This would be a percentage of one onehundredths of1 percent, get real and I could care less about professionals or any of these side motivational issues, I only want to talk about these injuries and you keep dodging the issues that I speak of.

quote:

“It is my hope that I will not be a factor in keeping that percentage down”

Yet you are by way of your mechanical beliefs maybe, I don’t know you refuse to talk about the things that matter when discussing your title. Just change your title to fear and extention pitching ramifications and I will digress.

quote:

”The info is a buffet.”

That has little to do with injuries and I understand if you do not want to discuss it further but I want you to, do not go away!

quote:

“Be Beethoven Yardbird”

What does this even mean? Are you saying I’m not an independent thinker? Or I fear something? Or I’m extending to far? Or I am deaf, again my comments are not about me or you but about those injuries.

quote:

Now let's enjoy coaching!

How can I do that with these repetitive injury problems? How can you? Good health to your pitchers and good luck to you this year, I hope you guys go all the way!

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne...ug=jp-marshall051007

After reading this article, it has just dawned on me that I know one of Marshall's former live-in students from several years ago.

I knew he rehabbed somewhere in FL, but I didn't make the Marshall connection until now. Ha, I remember now, he even taught a very young Little Sultan to throw a pronated curve in the front yard (LS never used it, I thought it would hurt his arm ).

The rehab didn't work out for the kid though, he didn't make it to the show.

My whole intent in making the videos was to shed some light on pitching injuries and my thoughts of their additional causes outside mechanics. The pitching injuries I am referring to it is those such as the ones to the shoulder, elbow, wrist, hips, ankles, groins, necks, fingers, etc. I would mainly say though it is toward the elbow and TJ.


Yardbird,
My apologies for my the post I responded with here. I am ashamed of myself. How can one attempt to ask people to pursue things with no limits and tell you the things I did? Not my gig. I don't want to be part of it. Sorry.

FC

Bballman,

quote:

“Just to point something out. I know the Marshall guys have said that Marshall used his complete - upper half - mechanics when he pitched.”

I have never seen anyone say complete! This adjective ruins this sentence.
It is only obvious that Dr.Marshall’s discovery was built up over time, even the time when he was playing and High speed filming himself.
There are several tenets that he later perfected in the top half mechanics after his playing days but he still performed the main tenets that his original scientific research uncovered and explained as in using your lat’s as the primary mover instead of your pech and pronation of all his pitches that are also more advanced now.

quote:

“If you look at the picture of Marshall pitching in the above article, I see two things right off hand that are not part of what he teaches today”

Looking at stills tells you little and often tells you the reverse of what is actually happening.

quote:

”First of all, his shoulders are parellel to the ground and his arm is in a very traditional position at what appears to be foot plant”

This is because that mechanic is one of the tenets that he teaches today that he strived for back then.

quote:

“Marshall pitchers are taught to have the arm high above the head with shoulders tilted to the glove side arm”

This is far from his pedagogy.
He teaches to keep the shoulders parallel to the ground during the pendulum and transition phases until the arms arrive (glove arm just below eyesight of the target and straight at it) (ball upper arm at shoulder height, forearm slightly bent with ball at ear height) at driveline height with shoulders going no further in rotation than the field driveline, much different than you have explained here.

quote:

“This is supposed to help them use the Lats and Triceps in delivery of the ball. Sure looks like Marshall will be using his pecs to bring his arm forward here.”

In order to engage your Lats as the primary mover you must drive your elbow ahead of your forearm after transition allowing your Humerus to attain a more vertical position, the more vertical it is the more the lats take over, I can see where Marshall performs this poorly but I can assure you he understood it even back then.
Marshall accomplished this even without the more radicalized version he now pushes for but his pronated drive ensured that this was performed. All pronators engage their Lat’s better, all supinators engage their pech’s.

quote:

Secondly, Marshall pitchers are taught to have their forearm and wrist in a fully supinated position prior to delivery - ie, taking the ball out of the glove with the hand under the ball. This is so there is no other way to deliver the ball except to pronate it.”

Is delivery the acceleration phase to you or the transition and acceleration phase or the pendulum swing and transition and acceleration phases?
Even my pitchers are aware of this and even though they do not start their supination at 45 degrees going back making them later they still get it turned at the top,not as good as Marshall would like. The problem comes when they have to lift their legs traditionally making it very difficult to supinate going back but possible with good work.

quote:

Marshall looks like he is holding the ball in a pronated position prior to delivery

His transition then was earlier than all but not all the way early the way he teaches it now, the picture shows him in the acceleration phase or at the end of the transition phase? This is what I mean about stills or low frame rate video, there is no frames of reference.

quote:

“Maybe he can and did, but I don't see much of a way for him to pronate that pitch from the extremely pronated position he is holding it in this picture.”

He would be the first to admit he did the transition poorly just much better than traditional. All pitchers who pronate their fastball and change up and Sinkers get into a fully outwardly rotated humerus with the forearm then attain supination, the difference is Marshall voluntarily performed it at the back earlier instead of bouncing it off to the side. Many pitchers now are attaining a further back transition.

quote:

Maybe he just held his wrist and forearm in this pronated position throughout his delivery. Either way, it is not what is taught now by the Marshall camp” [quote]
It is just further along now and radicalized by eliminating the leg lift that allows for full supinated arrival at the back.
[quote]because the Marshall camp (not just you Yard) uses Marshall himself as an example of his mechanics being used in the Major Leagues.

And we are correct in doing so because of the discovery in infancy then of a straighter lines, pronation of all pitches and engaging the Lats. It may be that just these few changes keeps you healthy as Dr.Marshall was by being able to pitch 3 innings in every game if they let him.

quote:

They say he is an example and the reason he set all the records he did was because of his perfected upper half mechanics he himself used when he was pitching

You were doing good until you used “perfected” as your adjective qualifier!

quote:

I don't see that to be the case in this picture.

Going by his written statements is the best you can get on this subject of provenance.
You need to remember he was traditionally trained and proprioceptively set up until the time he started with the Dodgers where most of his upper half discovery was formulated.
He was using the wrist weights and Iron ball overload training every day even on game days showing us that his exercise biology was right about this tenet just like Fred’s correct contention that strength pays big dividends in injury prevention.
I never take newer clients who are older and set in their traditional mechanics and try to whole cloth change them, I just get them straighter, have them arrive timely at the back, try to get them to turn their Humerus earlier and teach them all pronated pitches usually by just eliminating the supinated ones and teaching them how to throw the same pitches pronated.

I can see you know your stuff even though you have a few things misunderstood and appreciate your manly demeanor when discussing these issues, keep up the good work, you are the ones that will help eliminate these unnecessary injuries and I would bring my 10 cyo boy to you for advice any day if I had one.

Fred,
I’m glad you redacted most of the things you said in your last post, I will not answer them because many of their untested conclusions were mistaken and it would have rehashed old lengthy explanations that people get tired of reading.
One thing though “Maxline”only means the glove arm side of the pitchers plate
leaving the “Torque side” as the ball arm side of the pitchers plate. The “Maxline” pitches move to the ball arm side of home plate and the torque pitches move to the glove arm side of home plate. I’m sure many of your pitchers use this movement in their approaches but supinate the torque movement leaving them exposed to 3 types of elbow injuries and many others in the before and after mechanic?

quote:

“My whole intent in making the videos was to shed some light on pitching injuries and my thoughts of their additional causes outside mechanics”

You’d made mention that over-extension helped cause injuries and while discussing it wrote pro-nation (pronation) as if this were an injurious part of that? Lets not give people the wrong impression. Your thought’s on strength were right on just mal-specific.
Pronation is one of the main noninjurious tenets. You are right on that strength helps eliminate soft tissue damages in some cases. Biceps, Brachialis tear is mechanically caused.

quote:

“The pitching injuries I am referring to it is those such as the ones to the shoulder, elbow, wrist, hips, ankles, groins, necks, fingers, etc. I would mainly say though it is toward the elbow and TJ”

Like I said, your strength call mostly helps the soft tissue (issues) not the rest.
The UCL is injured long before extension and no amount of lifting will protect the UCL
If you are bouncing it backwards to get your Humeral outwards rotation in order to actually then start you acceleration phase as in the traditional mechanic you are micro tearing it with every pitch.

quote:

”My apologies for my the post I responded with here. I am ashamed of myself”

Seldom does a post need apology for in that it goes on record and you can always correct your self later, the only shame would occur if you quit a tough challenge or redacted what you originally wrote.

quote:

How can one attempt to ask people to pursue things with no limits and tell you the things I did?

I was seeing the same ironic scenario, you were talking great sports psychological pep but were not letting me have mine, unlike you and what you want for all?

quote:

Not my gig.

There’s always the next gig, play’em yerr best. Do no harm and be curious.

quote:

“I don't want to be part of it. Sorry.”

Ya, That’s OK you react normally like most, I agree for you, knowing how all those injuries occur in detail may have you making suggestions to players that would require you to make some changes that would cause questions in your own mind and others about where you are going with this, how scarry in deed. Then once you tried it would find out it works then you would be in an ethical quandry by not being able to go back to where you were. This is what has happened to me.

I guess my question was overlooked. What professional pitchers (majors or minors) are utilizing 100% of Marshall's techniques and have been successful? In other words how many are true Marshall prodigies? Afterall, He's been in the business of producing pitchers for thirty years. How come his pitching school went out of business this past year?

RJM...to me it seems like there's a lot of overlooked questions here. If Yardbird doesn't like it, or doesn't agree with it, then of course it's wrong. Or, everyone else is ganging up on him.