Throwing at a batter on purpose

my son when a freshman was told to throw at a kid who hit a jack earlier and then while thier team was up by alot was stealing bases. my son was brought in to pitch and told to hit this kid. he threw a slerve (about slider speed) right at the batter the batter jumped out of the way and the pitch darted back over the plate for a strike! followed up by striking the batter out but got chastised by the coach for not hitting the kid. the kid is an awesome player and played with my son for 4 years in little league..... my brother pitched in jr college and a couple of years back while playing ball at his house my 5 yr old sent one over the fence in the yard, the next time he came up my brother peged him easily with a hardball and said thats what you get learn to expect it. my son and everyone else was a little shocked but just accepted it as part of the game and kept playing. needless to say he had a reputation when he pitched. id hate to crowd the plate on pedro or drysdale they seemed to take that stuff personnally!

Very good post redbird you sound like the kind of player I like to coach.

What motivates and or justifies a coach or player to "plunk" a batter just because he has gone yard one or more times in a game. Usually homeruns are a result of the pitcher not doing his job in keeping the ball out of the middle of the plate. And if the batter does hit your pitch out of the park, you tip your hat to him and move on. The coach should be "plunking" his pitcher down on the bench if he continues to make poor pitches and having the ball leave the yard. If the pitcher thinks hitting the batter in this case is the answer, then the pitcher isn't capibable of accepting responsibility and working harder to make more quality pitches. JMHO.

Home run hitters who round the bags without a big show - don't plunk. Home run hitters who round the bags showing up the pitcher - plunk. Trash talkers who start the game with trash - pitch high and tight. Then set them up for the K.

A pitcher will use all his tools and if hitters think pitchers are just going to stand there and take whatever the other team shells out - well, most know what will be coming. Showboat at your own risk.

As far as injury dangers - these high school hitters are standing at the plate with rocket launchers! The pitchers are in danger now everytime the batter swings! So celebrating homers that are aided by these launchers is REALLY showing up a pitcher. Trust me - they know they might get plunked. This is nothing new.

Is it "right"? I don't know...it's how the game is played.

2seamer,

You are correct!

What was the result of the assault charges against the HS basketball player a few years ago who threw the elbow going down court?

Throwing at a batter intentionally would be harder to prove, but as a coach and parent of a player I would be concerned about the liability as well as the ethics.

We were in the Regional Championship game a few years ago and the game was hot. The games between my school and this team are now a major rivalry despite the fact that they are in a difference conference and more than twice our size. Well, we had a pitch count and they were going long into the counts. I had to remove my starter and everyone knew we didn't have anyone left. This team ripped my relief pitchers and before you knew it, we were down by 13. My "Ace" knew his season was over and asked for one last time on the mound. He had thrown two days earlier and so, I agreed to let him throw to get the last batter out. He went to warm up and before you know it, they are stealing. Then, they are bunting. I brought him in and called for a pitch in the batter's ear. He looked in at the signal, yes we have a signal for that, and he stepped off. He looked in at me and said, "Coach, you don't really want me to hit this kid in the head." I looked hard at him and then said, "you're right." Just get him out. Thank goodness I had a kid with so much class playing for me.

"There comes a time when you have to stop dreaming of the man you want to be and start being the man you have become." Bruce Springsteen

I think those who have sons who do not pitch or have never pitched themselves might feel different about this issue.

I hate to see pitches at the head, on purpose or not. But pitchers who are afraid to go there are not likely to succeed at the highest levels. Sometimes high and tight misses and you have a beaning. Nobody cares if you miss low and away by a large margin.

Someone mentioned a walk being the same as a HBP. Well, I don't agree with that. If you walk a hitter you have not gained a thing. When you hit the hitter, there's a certain benifit gained. Yes, the results both put the runner at 1B, but one way has absolutely no benifit to the pitcher. The other way can actually create a bit less comfort in the batters box.

Playing against Team USA, my son batted leadoff against a pitcher who ended up being picked 3rd in the draft. With about 40 scouts in the stands all with the guns raised, my son guessed a first pitch fastball. It was--about 96mph-and he lined it right back over the pitchers head to center. Second time up, the pitcher who walked no one and had pin point control hit him right on the backside with another 96mph fastball. No doubt it was a message. Third time up all breaking balls and sliders. He knew he was going to get hit, I knew he was going to get hit. His mother wasn't too happy with the explanation that it was a message pitch and part of the game.

infielddad,
Teach me something. If your son, or any of his teammates did not show up the pitcher after he turned around that 96 mph fastball, what is the rationale behind this pitcher "sending a message" in this case?

Colo05, your post has an implication that is unnecessary I think. Perfect Game has already given you the answer. Turn around a first pitch fastball with 40 scouts watching--someone is too comfortable in the box. Next time send a message. Third time you throw all hard breaking balls thinking you have him moved off the plate or have the hitter unsettled as Perfect Game notes. By the way, my son has the nickname on the field of "Stoneface." Earned that because he never changes expression, never utters a word and just plays hard. There is a real difference in a pitcher who knows how to pitch which is exactly what I thought Kyle Sleath was doing with my son and reacting to being shown up. If he had been shown up I think the pitch may have been a different location.

After reading these post, I see many sides. HighHeat34 and Coach May sound like people I want my son playing with. PGStaff sees it a differnt way. Well after PGStaff and myself watched my son get drilled in the head last year, I am sure we saw that, 2 differnt ways also. As a parent the first thought was not good. PGStaff might have though that, but I know it was not the same fear that a parent goes through. Was he hit on purpose, NO...but that doesn't change the fact that it could have been career threating let alone life threating, had it not hit the tip of the bill of the helment before hitting the bridge of his nose. You are talking about throwing an object 90mph. No one has complete control or there would be no walks in baseball! That alone should give a hitter a uneasy feeling in the box. So when you aim at a player and then miss high...well, are you as a coach or player prepared. Prepared for an outcome that might happen. I want my son to play as hard as possible on the field. I want my son to play the game the way it was ment to be played. To me, if a pitcher beans somene on purpose, that has team has lost control and shows their defeat comming. They can't get the hitters out fairly so they resort to other tactics. Sports are here for our enjoyment. They are not here to make up unwritten rules. If that were true, why would teams fight over someone getting pegged. Or is that another unwritten rule. Nothing wrong for pitchers throwing anywhere a he needs to to get a hitter out. But, to intentionaly hit someone is not baseball. It reminds me of the NBA out of control. Ty Cobb was a great ball player, but I remember him more for his spiking people than his bat.

It appears I'll be in the minority with redbird, but I also accept hitting a batter in very certain, LIMITED occasions...

A player going 4-4, hitting a homerun. That's just part of the game. If my pitchers can't get him out, that's their fault, not his. I don't even care if the kid swings for the fence up 10 runs with the bases loaded....his job is to hit and he doesn't need to give himself up just because his team is winning big.

HOWEVER !! There are certain things you do and don't do in baseball, and sometimes reminders need to be given. Stealing up 13 runs? Yep, someone needs to be loosened up at the plate.

I don't even like retaliation pitches when a player plays dirty. If he throws an elbow and the umpire doesn't see it, I would never want a kid to throw inside, because it just heats up an already hot situation....to much chance for a flare up.

But being disrespectful to the game and to the opposing team? I accept the consequences.

A couple of things that have happened in my coaching career: One of my kids stole second when we were up 16-0 on a team that just didn't have the athletes we had. (He said they weren't paying attention to him so he took it)...I immediately called time, pulled the kid and apologized to the other coach. Had I not done that, I would've fully expected one of my players to get brushed back or hit, and it wouldn't have bothered me.

I imagine that some of you will find the next story horrifying, and some of you will find it humorous: My first year of coaching HS ball, (I was 20) we were being decimated by another team (something like 15-2) and they continued to steal and double steal. I had only one catcher and he was very obviously sore armed and hurting. They continued to double steal. Finally, we hit their batters with an open base. They continued to hit and steal. We went to non-pitchers. They continued to steal, now up 17 runs. Finally, we suggested that our pitcher try a pick-off at third and let their coach have one .....our pitcher did so...

Unfortunately, the 3rd base coach had walked out of the coaches box and was standing about 45 feet up the line! Ball hit him square in the posterior. He yelled at the ump "You know what they're doing!!!" and the ump responded "Yes, I do, and if you wouldn't steal up 17 runs, it never would've happened!!!" That was the end of it from both teams.

Remember folks, there is a difference between head hunting, sending a warning pitch, brushing back and hitting someone. It isn't all bad and frankly, people who say it doesn't happen in HS and college ball are WAAAYY off base.

"Swing hard in case you hit something" Gary Ward

I meant to add to that last post....

Looking back I laugh at that incident when I was coach that summer team at age 20.

However, I should clarify that after 20 more years of coaching, I would never do that again. At the time, it seemed like a good idea.

I have, however, recently taught first basemen (I was one) that if we have a runner on first who is peeking (we had one who would keep is left foot on 1st and stretch out and make it obvious that he was peeking in at the catchers signals), when we throw over, make sure you slap that tag on him hard enough that he feels that big firstbasemen's mitt a little...then tell him to re-think his actions....

"Swing hard in case you hit something" Gary Ward

TCB1,

I like picking off the coach! That's great.

Also, a good, hard slap tags sends a message.

The most recent edition of Collegiate Baseball has an interesting article about UCLA's long time baseball coach Gary Adams. He recounts a story involving one of his star players who was intentionaly hit in the head by an Arizona State pitcher in one series and later being hit again in another game, I think, two more times. His attitude and response to that situation seem to be what we all would desire. He warned the umpire after this same star player was hit again in the second game that the pitcher was intentionaly throwing at his player. The umpire chose not to warn the Arizona State bench and the next time up the same player was hit again. After receiving no consideration from the umpire Coach Adams instructed his pitcher to hit the next batter below his belt line. (He indicates that this was the only time he had ever given an order to his pitcher to intentionaly hit an opposing batter). The first pitch was thrown in the dirt and the second hit the batter in the rump. Coach Adams was immediately thrown out of the game. (No disiplinary action was taken against the Arizona State coach).

He went on to say that he was disturbed by what he percieved as a trend in college baseball that condoned throwing at batters and that until the head coaches were held responsible for these situations then it would continue.

Coach Adams is retiring after this season and this was an article that explored what he has been able to do that enabled so many of his players over the years to play in the major leagues. I would encourage all of you to take the opportunity to read the entire article. I think all of us whould be proud to have him coach our sons.

Being a former pitcher I have to go along with pitching "inside" to keep the batters honest and off balance--but I have to draw the line when it comes actually trying to hit a batter for whatever reason. Yes, there have been times when I wanted to drill a guy for taking me "downtown" and smiling at me as he rounded the bases, but hey, it was my fault for giving him a "meat" pitch. My retaliation was to "K" him the next time up and smile back at him walking back to the dugout!

Guys, I understand the "unwritten" rules of baseball about knocking someone down when they show your team up, but not when someone hits a homerun or goes 3 for 3 with 2 dingers. Question---If you advocate hitting a batter on the backside because he hit a HR off your first pitch then what do you do to a pitcher who has struck out the first 6 batters in a game? How do you hurt him? I suggest it has to work both ways if you are going to be intellectually honest.

Maybe my reasoning is being swayed by what happened to my roomie in "A" ball. Promising
young lefty pitcher got hit in the face by a "purpose" pitch because previous batter hit one out. Caved his cheek in, lost the sight in his eye, finished his career. This was before DH. Yes, it could happen by accident at anytime, but both teams knew what it was.

Moc1

MOC1

Pitching inside is part of the game-- it can be used to send a "message" but in most cases a smart pitcher comes inside to set up his pitch on the outside

The way batters crowd the plate nowadays young pitchers had better learn how to come inside or they wont last long

TRhit

TR--Agreed!

Moc1

Senoiaslim,

This is what I said. After reading it again, I can understand how that might have sounded cold hearted.

"I hate to see pitches at the head, on purpose or not. But pitchers who are afraid to go there are not likely to succeed at the highest levels. Sometimes high and tight misses and you have a beaning. Nobody cares if you miss low and away by a large margin".

I do not like pitchers going after the hitters head. I think everyone in baseball (except for a few pitchers) feels the same way. What I was trying to say is... Pitchers who think about "not hitting" the hitter, will not succeed to their full potential. Throwing tight is an important ingredient to success. Take inside away and the hitter becomes much better.

There is the pitch that gets the hitter off the plate or a bit uncomfortable. Some call it a brush back, some call it head hunting. Then there are the very few "head hunters" who actually want to hit the player in the head. The head hunters don't belong on the mound, they belong in jail!

It is a scary sight every time a hitter gets hit in the head with a pitch. I'm scared for pitchers who are 55 feet from the bat, too (without a helmet). While it's always most dreadful for the parent, everyone in the park feels sick when a player gets hit in the head.

Looking at the issue from a different perspective, in college ball hitters failing to make any effort to avoid being hit or actually leaning into the pitch in order to get hit is becoming rampant. If a pitcher throws anything inside that a hitter can take off the legs, hips or upper arm, most hitters walk to first base and most umpires fail to bring them back for failing to make any effort to avoid being hit. Headhunting is never right and should never be condoned. As the parent of a hitter though, I know a pitcher has to use the inside part of the plate. If the hitter is going to lean in and get hit anyway, how do you make the distinction that the pitcher cannot take away that strategy or at least make the hitter pay a little for using it. Check on CSU Fullerton for proof of guys leaning into pitches.

Also the addition of body armor for the batters has made them even more fearless and will crowd the plate even more.

A pitcher needs to be able to throw inside and reclaim the plate. Which is different then intentionally hitting a batter. But you need to be able AND willing to throw inside to succeed.

Play every game as if it were your last

PGStaff,

I agree with you on what your are saying. I didn't mean that a pitcher isn't going to hit batters. The start of the conversation ( I thought) was about beaning batters on purpose. For that I agree with you again on going to Jail. A baseball can be a deadly weapon and that is why it is so critical for young players to notthink it is OK to intentionally hit batters. If you get showed up on the field, (which you haven't played enough basseball if you have not.) take like a man and go on. You will get your due in time. As they say, "What goes around, comes around."

Tell your lovely wife I said Hi....

I don't really see anything wrong with throwing a few brush-back pitches and the OCCASIONAL pitch in the thigh (that's for extreme show boating in a game that isn't close, where you won't lose it for your team by hitting a guy).

Batters should be fearful. Not for their lives or heads, but they still shouldn't feel comfortable. And if a batter shows up a pitcher (like moi) then they better expect a brush back their next trip to the plate, or as previously stated baybe a hardly applied tag at first base. But pitchers can not let batters get comfortable. Brushing back and then k'ing them would be the best remedy IMO.

NJ Pitch

Saw my son pitch to 8 batters tonight who did everything but bring a backhoe to the batter's box. I told him the next time that happened I would run naked(not a sight for the squeamish), screaming on the field until he backed somebody off the plate.

Fortunately, he only gave up 1 unearned run in 2 innings on 1 bleeder but as far as those hitters were out over the plate trying to reach his knuckle-curve, it could have been much worse. No balls out of the infield, got the save, Dad stayed compleletly clothed.

We'll see what happens tomorrow in the championship game. Wearing tear away shorts just in case.

I like to work inside with our pitchers. Because so many people work away coachs are really spending alot of time on backside hitting. I like to work inside off the plate up and in. Pitchers that allow guys to get comfortable at the plate and give them the inside portion are asking for big trouble. Sometimes we hit people when we are working inside thats baseball. But that is not purposely throwing at people either. If we have opposing batters all up on the plate we are going to move them off. If they get hit they get hit thats baseball.

One game this summer i had a controversy with me hitting batters, during the game, which had alreayd been rain delayed all day and was still drizzling, i hit two kids in the 1st inning, and the parents were complaining form the other team, ended up hitting 5 on the day and the parents were livid, the umps were on my side using their common sense. i came up in the last inning in a close game against a kid that i had hit earlier, knew the pitch was coming at me because kids had pointed at me when i had hit them, also these kids were hit in counts where i was both ahead and behind, never on the 1st pitch, but all 4 pitches were at my head, no problem because i kenw it was all coming, its part of the game, except for the head part, but i gladly took my base and scored an insurance run, pretty classless team and they never said anything to me except for when i was walking away in the parking lot then they all started yelling when i was far away

I saw a high school game 2 years ago where 2 pitchers combined for a no-hitter, but hit 5 batters between them. The first pitcher hit 4 (I think all on changeups) and the 2nd pitcher hit 1 on a fastball. They weren't on purpose - it was a control issue. But I often wondered if the hit batters contributed to the no-hitter.

________________
"Pitching is the art of instilling fear," Sandy Koufax.

Not only is hitting batters a part of the game
(It's called survival) a catcher letting a few balls through to the umpire will settle a few scores.