Tips for the rear elbow in hitting

and when you get your elbow up and around, don't you block off vision with your back eye. wouldn't this = a loss with depth perception etc??

Wow, swingbuster!

I have been thinking about starting a thread on this for a couple weeks now.

Specifically: Is the ol' Get your back elbow up really just a misapplied, but well-intentioned, cue?

What we see many youth coaches advocating is a simple lift of the back elbow, which adds no torque/load to the upper body. But applied the way you've been recommending, it makes much more sense.

Nice topic!

Mittman

Great question and worth the discussion. I first make them look with both eyes at the pitchers throwing arm . THey then set their feet to the throwing arm not moving the head . Now they rotate their shoulders slightly until the upper body is closed pre setting an X angle. THen raise your elbow and feel a little tension in the rear scaps. We are NOT making an inward turn; we are rotating the shoulders around the spine with the head and spine not moving. THis load doesn't go very far but it sets up for great separation when the hips lead. 13 degrees additional separation at launch has proved big concerning power in studies
http://www.skilltechnologies.com/XFactorStretch.htm

Sandman

I *hink *his is wha* **** (sca* load), Mankin(*H* BH* CH*), *om Gu***y( d*sc*i**iv* na**a*iv*s on u**** body loading),and in a s*ns* **s**in (wi*h *h* d*l*oid *o*qu* d*ill) hav* all in diff***n* ways b**n **ying *o communica**. Wh*n all *h*s* guys say i* is im*o**an* *h*n w* b***** look!
I ha***n *o b* in *h* ***-load cam* b*caus* I wo*k wi*h *wo and *h*** s*o** a*hl***s *ha* do no* hav* *h* **ac*ic* *im* availabl* so w* b**ak i* down in sim*l** ***ms and m*ans.

Did someone say (long) descriptive narrative ?

Feel free to ignore.My current thinking is as follows.

Just like you want to get to toe touch right(upper body loading),prior to this you also want to get the hip cokked right.

In both of these phases,it helps to be conscious of the upper and lower body working together /staying synchronized.

For hip ****,you would like to synchronize the pinching at the waist and elevation of the front hip with the simultaneous internal rotation of the lead leg(front knee turns in) and back arm (bat tilts toward vertical).

The next phase(upper body loading then coil) is lead by the upper body/back scap load.It is fine to reduce motion by "pre-loading" the back scap by having hands up and in at top of strike zone near armpit in the stance.The lower body should match this by a proportionately wide stance followed by a shorter stride.

Assuming you have gotten the hip cocked,then you want to do much as described by Epstein "wind the rubber band(coil) as you stride to balance at toe touch with the weight slightly forward and the foot open at about 45 degrees" or something very similar to that.

The upper body feel to me during this time is primarily one of ongoing back scap loading with the feel of stretch going up the back of the torso.What you see on video(remember not only can "you only see what you can see",but you may "see what you expect to see whether it is really happening or not" so try to be objective and see if other people think they can see this) is the "hiding of the hands" as the back elbow goes back and up and the hip turns back against the resistance of the back leg as the stride leg goes out.The bat cokks/"centers".

Next,as you continue to keep loading/stretching the back scap,"counterrotation"(Epstein) or coiling/separation begins as the hips begin to stretch open and the lead leg and back arm simultaneously begin "external rotation" (this can also be occasionally seen as the back foot turniong back as the hips start open,see side view of Glauss at youthbaseball for example) .The bat begins to uncock/circle back toward catcher(Mankin's "pre-launch" THT).The bat circling and the hips opening as 2 rotations "out of phase" assist ongoing scap loading in keeping the hands/torso stretching back opposite these rotations.Still,the basic upper body feel is just ongoing/continuous/smooth back scap loading/pinching.This does not mean you are turning back/taking too much of a backswing or pulling the head/eyes off the ball.

It is important not to "push the hands"/disconnect/let the back scap unload at this point when the back elbow is starting down/starting to "slot".Continuing to focus on ongoing back scap load will encourage the right motion.
This back elbow "slotting" needs to be a somewhat passive or secondary action,the primary action being the ongoing scap load/torsion/torque/twisting/separation/coiling/winding the rubber band as you go to toe touch.If the slotting is too active there will be disconnection or loss of coil or difficulty pulling the bat into the momentum plane of the torso as this is established.

How can the bat uncock as the back elbow slots without diconnecting/interrupting coil at this point ? I believe the answer is largely a "mechanical" / "kinesiological" one.The bat has the freedom to passively/secondarily uncock ONLY if it has the freedom to do so via external rotation of the back arm.This freedom only exists if you prepared for it by internally rotating the back arm earlier in the hip cokk phase.If the back arm has this particular freedom,THEN the bat can turn and the sum of all these motions at the back shoulder can allow the bat to turn and transition smoothly into the swing plane WITHOUT interrupting back scap loading/without "pushing the swing".Grip and wrist action must also be controlled to avoid "wrist bind"/permit hinging.

So based on the plan for a given pitch you expect get to toe touch in a consistent way with the back scap still loading and the hips opening and the bat uncocking with the hips still pinched.The exact duration of this ongoing loading will vary depending on what location is recognized.You will drop and tilt earlier for inside/fast,later for outside off speed.The longer load goes on,the more the baseline coil/separation,the longer the swing radius(lead arm stretch) and the higher the load once the unloading sequence begins with "drop and tilt".

Epstein once again has a very good description of the "drop and tilt"/initiation of unloading/creation of xFACTOR STRTECH which begins with the feel of the stretch/cord connecting the fornt heel to the back shoulder and results in the stretch going up the front side of the torso(front side firmup is primarily/actually a torso,not lead leg feel).This is what Mankin describes as THT at initiation.This is what LAu describes as "pulling the knob with the hands not the shoulders".Pulling the knob with the shoulders would be the feel of disconnecting the shoulder link which would eliminate the benefit of the good coil/uncoil reversal of xfactor stretch.

Epstein recommends tension in the lead shoulder at drop and tilt to prevent dragging during drop and tilt.I think the more precise feel at this point(drop and tilt) should be a last little bit of BACK scap load resisting the accelerated hip opening which results from dropping the front heel and resisting weight shift/stabilizing the axis of rotation.Nyman calls this similar point in the throwing motion th "giddy-up" move which he considers the point where the throw(unloading) starts.Then there will be an accentuation of the feeling of the cord connecting the front heel to the back shoulder and THEN tightening of the lead shoulder with front side firmup.

So if you position everything right at hip ****,then the upper body focus remains on scap load until some "giddy-up" at drop and tilt.I think swingbusters 90-90 position of lead elbow and bat are good setup thoughts too.

Tom,

As usual, GREAT POST!



Could you explain what Lau says about "pulling the knob with the hands not the shoulders", and how it relates to rotational swing mechanics?

Also, wouldn't this cause disconnection between the shoulders and the hands, which would not allow for the momentum from the shoulders and hip to be transfered to the bat?

Just need a more detailed explanation.

Thanks!

I would get Lau Jr's book and go through it (LAU'S LAWS).

To instill the feel,he will stand behind the player and hold on to the end of the bat and have the player pull.The pull is stronger when using the torso and shoulders connected as a single unit as opposed to disconnecting and pulling with the shoulders.

Peavy (peavynet.com,Lau follower) thinks oo "pull the knob" as a linear action that makes the swing a "hybrid" that is superior to "pure rotational",but this is really just the feel of the last bit of body torque/coil before uncoiling(xfactor stretch in golf).This is what "keeps the shoulder in there" and prevents ""pulling off the ball".

Rocket writes:

Could you explain what Lau says about "pulling the knob with the hands not the shoulders", and how it relates to rotational swing mechanics?


I am confused here too Rocket

I like to launch the shoulders as a unit with torso torque. Hands are a dirty word at early launch. Hands are associated with "back" not "pull" concerning swing initiation in my little neck of the woods.

Sorry Charlie and Coach Peavy . I'm with Tom

Swingbuster,

You have been doing some very good writing lately! I have not had the time to comment on the things you have said been all in all they are very useful and on the money.

Regarding this subject: I am of the opinion the "back" is more important than the "up". I think the Guerrero clip of the youth website shows this well, as does the Bonds clip from behind. Degree of "up" depends on starting point of the hands. I think it is easier to feel the "back' from a slightly lower elbow position. Nick

Thanks Nick,

I'm more excited about this season than ever before. I feel like the study and the discussion group people have helped me put the pieces of the puzzle together. I feel more confident in helping these guys do well at the plate. My new found enlightenment of how the upper body works to compliment lower body mechcanics gives me new energy to teach. The kids find it simple and we are seeing great results.

My coach at my highschool told us to keep your back elbow down. This helps to get your hips through quicker.

Quick hips are great but you want them to lead the shoulders to create torque so your bat will go fast. The big issue is keeping your hands back. If you can do that with a low elbow...go dawg!