Tired of MLB players not knowing how to teach fundamentals

I always felt that there is more than one way of being a good hitter--there is not just one method

Approach to Hitting

Not sure how many times you posted, (nor why), yet check this out (or not)

Bear you have a PM.

Bear:
By "working together" do you mean that the hips and hands start at the same time?

Isn't that the question here? Whether the hips start before the hands, or the hands start before the hips.

"Working together" is vague and ill-defined. I could argue that the hips and hands could be working together whether the hands go first or the hips go first.

So are you saying that they should start at the same time?

I find this a very interesing issue. I'm no hitting expert or even particularly knowledgable about hitting mechanincs, so I am a good layperson to ask clarifiying questions about stuff that gets bogged down in jargon.

Sam1234 posted two videos with distinctly contrary views as to whether hips go forst or hands go first. The second video goes so far as to say that hips first is an "absolute" to good hitting.

So my question is more or less one that could be empirically answered: do the overwhelming majority of good hitters fire hips before hands or hands before hips?

Or is this not an absolute at all, which means empirical evidence would show good hitters doing it both ways.

I think this is interesting, because unlike a lot of other p**sing contests on the hitting forum, this one could actually be empirically proven, seems to me.

One other thing - question for sam1234 -

I played back the John Mallee video a few times. Right at initiation of the swing, where he says the swing should be from the "ground up, foot, knee, hips, hands last" -

Guess what the video shows? The hitter's knee and hips start moving exactly at the same time the hands start moving!

Play it back yourself! Either this hitter is not a good example of what Mallee is trying to say is an absolute, or it actually isn't really an absolute.

Looks to me like this hitter starts his hands at the same time as the back knee and hip, just like it seem Bear is arguing.

Thoughts?

I can't watch youtube videos at school so I can't comment on them. I will try to remember them when I get home and check them out then. But I would like to comment on Rob's questions / comments with my philosophy.

I'm a "swing from the ground up" guy and that's what I teach. But I also believe that the separation of movements is so minute that it really a non-issue if the hands move when the feet move at same time. I teach it more from a generating power point of view.

Which is stronger - legs or arms? I teach my guys to think bottom up because the bigger / stronger parts of the body will get the smaller / not as strong (because you don't want weak) parts of the body moving.

Another aspect which I teach to build upon the generating power aspect is that really the whole body is connected. Therefore the hands are connected to the feet which are connected to the hips. Think of it like there is a chain with no slack in it connected all the parts of the body. When one part moves the rest of the body has to move. So after trigger / stride (whatever you want to call it) anything that happens creates the whole body movement. If you want to start the hands then the hips and feet need to start moving. If you want to start the hips then the hands and feet better be moving as well. If you want to start the feet then the hips and hands better be moving too.

You can say "separate this and that" or "start this and that" but if you have a good swing then it looks like all the parts are working together at the same time. Slumps or bad at bats come from one aspect of the swing being a little too fast or a little too slow.

I also agree this can be a great topic with great discussion as long as it doesn't turn into who has the biggest nose competition. I rarely come to the hitting forum because I hate trying to explain what I teach (and know how successful it is) just to have someone tell me how dumb I am because I don't teach it their way. TRHit said it best in his response - there is more than one way to be a good hitter. I'll just add to his sentiment that there is more than one way to be a good ANYTHING.

Rob Ellis teaches the hands lead the hips (The Mike Schmidt Study). Says the swing is slow with the opposite key. I agree they are usually simultaneous.

That is not important though. The hitter who believes the hands lead the swing may put himself in a better position to hit. I would never correct a major league hitter of 10 years on that point.

A hitter who has a dead lower body may need to be told the lower body leads the swing.

When you hit, you really don't think about either. This would be more of practice keys anyway. I've never seen a sport that demands absolutes that don't seem to exist like baseball.

Here are my absolutes to hitting.
1. Player must not be seated nor standing on his hands.
2. He must use an approved bat.
3. To keep hitting in any league (except little league, etc.) he must make some contact.
4. Mass x velocity has something to do with hitting far.

quote:

Mass x velocity-SQUARED has something to do with hitting far.

Corrected it for you!

Some time back, someone posted a thread about the coach who "fixed" the swings of Carew, Musial, and several other HOF guys who had approaches that would be pooh-poohed by gurus today. It was a hoot.

I think fundamentals are especially needed by those of us who are mere mortals in terms of our athleticism -- we cannot succeed without perfecting technique. But there are super humans out there who hit despite developing cranky habits, and to them, any departure is a case of messing with success, which they wouldn't do.

I also think that the basics of eye-hand coordination improve with repetition. Thus, a guy who has what some might think is a bad swing can often have success if he just practices it enough. In the final analysis, it's all about putting the sweet spot on the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Rob Ellis teaches the hands lead the hips...

I never could quite understand how Ellis and Schmidt got connected.

Sure, it may have been thru baseball, but jeez, we are speaking about a HoF who pretty much drastically tweaked his approach to the plate, almost yearly.

As compared to an intense first round guy, who never left the yard in the bigs, and had a career .229 BA, yet he got there (yet for three years, not ten as mis-stated)!

I think you may have mis-interpreted what Ellis was trying to say.

Bottom Line: In many many circles, the lower half starts before the upper half. But then again, to reach some type of understanding, terms must be precise, understood by many, & agreed to for comprehensive.

I am not interested in a pe^ing approach/contest, at least not before the Flomax kicks in.

Rob,

The back knee piches in before the hands begin to start forward. That is what John is talking about.

John Mallee is a finalist to replace Rudy as the Texas Rangers hitting coach. That is why I put his video up. He knows his stuff.

I get tired of people saying, that just because this person played in the bigs, he knows his stuff. He was talented, but some ex-big leaguers, "just did it." They didn't understand the workings of the swing. They just had a great natural ability to hit a baseball. It is far different to be a great teacher, than just a great hitter.

Below is a link to a slide show of Albert Pujoles. Look at slides 11 - 13. These show clearly, the hips leading the hands.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pro...HomeRunSwing_001.pdf

One of the greatest hitting teachers in the game, also happened to be one of the greatest hitters in the game.

Another great hitting teacher also had his own hitting absolutes.

And yes, Rudy has been and will continue to be a pretty good hitting teacher.

Bottom Line: I like Chris O'Leary's reports. On both pitching and hitting. On Pujols I observe different things then your conclusions.

I see Pujols lower half leading his upper half. (slide 1 thru 10).
I also observe some hand movement beginning in slide 8.

I also see this terrific hitter having his hips and hands work together, thru contact and follow thru.

QED

Hip Bones Connected to the Back Bone Let's all sit by the fire, sing cum-bay-ya, drink and eat

When I was in high school I worked with a hitting coach who numerous professional hitters seek advice from for their swings and he taught me 4 things:
1. Before you can hit you have to load
2. Get your foot down early (earlier is better than later to allow you to read the pitch)
3. Your body should move like it does in a golf swing
a. you start back and you move to the ball
b. once you begin to swing your hips rotate
4. Always keep your hands inside of the ball (hit the middle to left part of the baseball; even on inside pitches)

It helped me a lot as hitter and I learned more from him in 2 years than anyone else all my life.

I don't remember seeing many on the golf tour, stride to hit the golf ball. Happy Gilmore was fun to watch!

He wasn't referring to the stride, but the movement of the body from the loaded position moving towards the baseball to hit. Simply stating not to just sit on the back side and turn hips and use your hands but to get the entire body into the swing. I believe there is only one guy that I know of in MLB that sits on his back side the entire time to hit and that is Tex.

It looks to me like he is making the case for the hips and the hands to move together. The hands needing to get in position to align with the hips and then they go together.

quote:

Originally posted by sam1234:
I'm tired of ex-mlb players not knowing how to teach the fundamentals. This is an ex 10 year mlb vet (major league vet, not minors) teaching the wrong hitting mechanics. At the end of the video, he states "the hands lead the hips, and it is wrong for the hips to lead the hands." Video below.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oRrTIoI_pU

This is wrong, and John Mallee (finalist for the Texas Ranger hitting coach - replace Jaramillo)states the correct process of the swing. Video evidence provided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA_PK6JPg9Y

Yep! No clue!

You want to know one that shocked me. Tony Gwynn! Anyone who has read "Men At Work" by George F. Will understands the time and energy Gwynn put in to analyzing his mechanics and overall hitting approach.

To see this video....shocking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ture=player_embedded

I'll go with the Bear...hips and hands together. Watch the back hip of a hitter and his hands move in unison.

Location of hands versus hips makes alot of problems really seeing what is happening in a swing. Hands will always be behind the hips the because they start from behind but the two move in unison.

You will find the same thing with pitching coaches. Just because they played in MLB does not mean they know how to teach. Buyer beware.

The absolute best hitting coach my son has ever had did not play a day beyond High School. He is however a perfectionist, detailed, uses video, knows how to communicate, and studies hitters like no one I have ever met. He has also read just about everything on hitting.

If you lead by opening your hips or front shoulder, you'll never get your weight behind the ball in your swing (power). Will work for contact hitters.

If you lean your hips/shoulders into the swing/contact location, your weight will follow and also allow good balance for hip turn.

The mental cues I use are

1) Front shoulder to the ball
2) Swing (short to zone, good extension)
3) Hip turn
4) Follow through

Depending on the individual, the stride/weight shift will vary.

The Mallee video has a pronounced 'long to the zone' swing in my opinion.

Ellis told me that the hands lead the swing. He said when he played pro ball an instructor told him to use the hands first as a key. He said it sped him up.

I don't know how Schmidt and Ellis got together, but it is a small world in baseball.

I am standing by mass x velocity... [not squared]
Mass * Velocity, mv, is the formula for momentum.

Close but no cigar:

Rotational energy and angular momentum

The baseball swing would be an example of angular accelleration.

The hip turn in the same direction of the swing would increase velocity or bat speed.

The force generated is from center to affect the revolving bat head.

the Momentum examples work with rotating bodies being affected by a torque or a force being generated to center. (Spinning Top)

Different players need different approaches and different cues. Sometimes the ability to teach is more important than the words the instructor is using. I've seen instructors say one thing and teach another and be effective doing it that way.

I have a question regarding the back foot. If you watch the back foot of the best MLB hitters - they are either on the tip of their back foot or the back foot is completely off the ground. What causes this? Where is the weight?? Are there drills out there for this?

Trillion,

The weight shifts from the back to the front with minimal head movement. The head can move towards the ball until the front heal (not foot) goes down. Rotation phase happens and the weight is transferred through and not around the core (spin hitter).

Since there are two feet that movement is linear on the bottom (there are two points). A leg kick hitter or any hitter who lifts the front foot at any phase of the swing has to have all weight on the back foot. When the swing is finished, you are correct, the weight transfers to the front foot. Most power is rotationally generated but this linear transfer is an important factor.

What doesn't work is "squish the bug." This creates friction and movement around and not through the core.

Henry Aaron's back foot was often off the ground when he hit. He had tremendous transfer and power. Most of the power in a swing is not in the lower but in the upper body -- this is not arguable but some will anyway. Aaron had great wrists which is the same as saying he had good forearms and triceps.

I am not saying lower body is not important. It is an important part of the chain and puts the hands in a position to rip through the ball. It is the difference between warning track and home run power, or the difference between getting a ground ball through the infield or hitting into a ground-out.

The best key I have found is not to emphasize the feet. I tell my hitters to drive their back knee under their head. This accomplishes two things. One, the head will center during rotational phase and will not drift forward. Two, the necessary lower rotation will get the hitter in the proper place to get maximum use of his upper body.

Hope this helps.

quote:

If you watch the back foot of the best MLB hitters - they are either on the tip of their back foot or the back foot is completely off the ground. What causes this? Where is the weight??

It's not a mystery.....Look at the above clips.....

The knee begins turning in toward the pitcher when the hands are going back.....The back heel lifts and the foot rolls up on the toe to allow this to happen....This is how torque is created in the middle, the core.....

When the back hip thrusts forward and upward to begin the forward swing, the foot can be pulled forward...I say can, because, some hitters lean back more than others during the forward swing phase and their foot is not pulled forward as much as some who don't lean back as much....

quote:

When the back hip thrusts forward and upward

Bluedog,
Glad you're back here posting.
I hate to get back into the hitting disussions, but could you explain what you mean by "upward". I was always under the impression that the hips (belt buckle) needed to stay level. I'm talking about the belt buckle staying close to parellel to the ground from beginning thru contact. Do you agree with that?

Thanks BlueDog, those are nice clip's.
You can see the slight differance between Bond's and Ruth.
Both powerful Lefty's.
Ruth just looks like he give's it his all, Much more Natural of a swing.
And Swinging such a big bat also.

EH

quote:

I'm talking about the belt buckle staying close to parellel to the ground from beginning thru contact. Do you agree with that

That's not what I see......

Guess it's just what one sees... I see the belt buckle staying level until contact. To raise the belt buckle would take raising the legs. Most hitting experts would say that is a no-no. It is better to actually lower the path of the belt buckle, rather than raise it, to keep the legs involved. Raising would eliminate the legs and make hitting an off speed pitch very difficult. JMO, but it is shared by others.

quote:

Most hitting experts would say that is a no-no. It is better to actually lower the path of the belt buckle, rather than raise it, to keep the legs involved.

And, frankly speaking, most hitting experts are incompetent.....

No great hitter has ever done this....Not one.....

Bluedog,

Would you call Don Slaught an expert?

Check some video of this year's American League MVP.

Here's another guy that's a pretty "great" hitter.Ramirez

Just as in some of your video clips, I only see the belt buckle raise at or after contact, not before.

My only question was regarding what you said here...

quote:

When the back hip thrusts forward and upward to begin the forward swing

What's with the "old" most hitting experts are incompetent statement. Is it only the non experts who know anything? How does anyone learn anything if all the experts are incompetent? How did anyone become a great hitter? If it happens just naturally, there's no need to even discuss hitting theory.

I respect your opinions, but you show no respect for those who are considered experts by most everyone in baseball, while at the same time try to explain how someone should hit.

If you don't know Don Slaught, call RightView Pro and talk to him sometime. I think you will be surprised. He will not only tell you how it's done, but he will tell you why it is done that way. You might even learn something. Isn't that what all us students of the game desire?

quote:

I respect your opinions,.....

PG, no you don't....

quote:

you show no respect for those who are considered experts by most everyone in baseball,

Now, this is true....

quote:

It is better to actually lower the path of the belt buckle, rather than raise it,....

You can't show one clip of any great hitter doing this...I guarantee it....

quote:

You can't show one clip of any great hitter doing this...I guarantee it....

Already did, go back and look closely at the link (Ramirez) in the other post. Maybe it's possible we are talking about different things here. I'm onlu going by your original description in the earlier post.

Raising the belt buckle or hips at the beginning of the swing, gets rid of the legs for any type of off speed pitch. It simply eliminates the ability to adjust! That is my opinion, until someone convinces me otherwise. In fact, it is a red flag when we see a good prospect doing this. Taught and explained by Don Slaught!

There's a difference between respect and agreement.

quote:

I'm talking about the belt buckle staying close to parellel to the ground from beginning thru contact.

That is your statement, PG......And, that is not what is happening in Manny's swing...

Manny is thrusting his rear hip forward and upward...There is no mistaking it....If I put my arrow on Manny's belt buckle and leave it there, the arrow will end up below his belt buckle.....

quote:

Raising the belt buckle or hips at the beginning of the swing, gets rid of the legs for any type of off speed pitch. It simply eliminates the ability to adjust!

PG, the adjustment for offspeed does not come from the legs, regardless of what you and the other experts think....

But, enough arguing with you....I answered the posters's question....Hopefully, he learned something....

Bluedog,

In the clips of Bonds and Ruth you provided above. Put your arrow on their belt buckle at the start and see if the buckle goes up or down at the beginning of their swing.

The legs or "BASE" are critical in being able to adjust to off speed. Once the base is committed too early it's nearly impossible to hit off speed.

Not saying that is the only adjustment, just an important ingredient.

What I see is the first movement of the belt buckle is either somewhat level with the starting point (of the belt buckle) or moving down in nearly every great hitter that hasn't been fooled on a pitch. My original comment was regarding this that you posted.

quote:

When the back hip thrusts forward and upward to begin the forward swing

Maybe I didn't understand correctly what you meant. It wouldn't be the first time.

Beginning of the forward swing means when the hitter decides to swing the bat....Many call this the "go" portion of the swing....

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Guess it's just what one sees... I see the belt buckle staying level until contact. To raise the belt buckle would take raising the legs. Most hitting experts would say that is a no-no. It is better to actually lower the path of the belt buckle, rather than raise it, to keep the legs involved. Raising would eliminate the legs and make hitting an off speed pitch very difficult. JMO, but it is shared by others.

PG,

Watch the on deck hitter and Bonds' belt buckle in relation to each other. His belt buckle goes down as he moves out and the knee turns forward keeping the load in his rear hip, as he reaches "go", he thrusts upward and forward to yank his hands forward. As he breaks the cusp, his belt buckle moves upward, ending up almost at the on deck hitter's head. Where did it start from as his barrel started forward?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Bluedog,

Would you call Don Slaught an expert?

Check some video of this year's American League MVP.

Here's another guy that's a pretty "great" hitter.Ramirez

Just as in some of your video clips, I only see the belt buckle raise at or after contact, not before.

My only question was regarding what you said here...

quote:

When the back hip thrusts forward and upward to begin the forward swing

What's with the "old" most hitting experts are incompetent statement. Is it only the non experts who know anything? How does anyone learn anything if all the experts are incompetent? How did anyone become a great hitter? If it happens just naturally, there's no need to even discuss hitting theory.

I respect your opinions, but you show no respect for those who are considered experts by most everyone in baseball, while at the same time try to explain how someone should hit.

If you don't know Don Slaught, call RightView Pro and talk to him sometime. I think you will be surprised. He will not only tell you how it's done, but he will tell you why it is done that way. You might even learn something. Isn't that what all us students of the game desire?

I've watched Slaught's stuff on RVP and he has some good thoughts, but he misses the biggest piece of the puzzle, IMO, and that is the rearward arc of the barrel and the use of the hands.

I now understand that we are talking about two different things.

I will also say that I believe no one on earth has studied more video of major league hitters. Heck, he even invented RightViewPro for that purpose.

I do consider him an expert on what happens in the swing and really wish he would post here. He doesn't just say this is how it is done, he explains why it is done that way and what happens if it is not done that way. And I believe he does understand the use of the hands.

Truth is after all these years, I'm still learning. In fact, even Don Slaught would say he is still learning. Does anyone really have it all figured out yet? If so, that guy should be worth a fortune!

It's hitting, so...even when someone does, they won't believe him.

The two video clips- one player is 'squishing the bug' and the other is on the tip of his back toe. I'm trying to figure out how you rotate/thrust your hips so that weight is not on your back foot; your back leg is 90 degrees and your back toe is pointed. Does this just happen, or are there any drills out there???

BlueDog - I read the whole thread and hopefully understand how it works. -Edith Bunker

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I always felt that there is more than one way of being a good hitter--there is not just one method

X2 I agree.

I was just watching the MLB channel over Thanksgiving, and they were showing a replay of the 1971 MLB All Star Game. Those players seemed to have completely different hitting styles than the players do today. They weren't any better or worse of hitters than todays players.

Most players today look a little like robots, and there is way too much of trying to mold everyone into the same style, instead of finding your own style of hitting and what works best for you.

quote:

Originally posted by td25:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I always felt that there is more than one way of being a good hitter--there is not just one method

X2 I agree.

I was just watching the MLB channel over Thanksgiving, and they were showing a replay of the 1971 MLB All Star Game. Those players seemed to have completely different hitting styles than the players do today. They weren't any better or worse of hitters than todays players.

Most players today look a little like robots, and there is way too much of trying to mold everyone into the same style, instead of finding your own style of hitting and what works best for you.

Style is one thing and mechanics are another thing. One is personal the other is absolute. The best hitters in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, all did and do the same thing mechanically.

power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.

This may sound strange to you, but great Pitchers and great hitters ALL do the same thing mechanically to do what they do. By this, I mean they all get separation between the rear hip and hands, they keep their weight back and balanced over their rear leg as they move out, and they direct all of their energy towards the target. They all have complete control of their abs, glutes, hands and go frame of the swing or throw. Great hitters create the stretch and separation between the rear hip turning/moving forward as the ball or barrel moves rearward. Now, do they all do that the same way? You know the answer to that, but that is where style comes in, personal preference, how THEY can best accomplish that task.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.

This is a true statement.

Watching a replay of the 1971 & 1972 All Star Games, I noticed some differences in mechanics between the hitting styles of players like Rod Caru & Pete Rose vs. Players like Roberto Clemente & Willie Stargel. It wasn't just style differences, there were mechanical differences.

quote:

Originally posted by td25:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.

This is a true statement.

Watching a replay of the 1971 & 1972 All Star Games, I noticed some differences in mechanics between the hitting styles of players like Rod Caru & Pete Rose vs. Players like Roberto Clemente & Willie Stargel. It wasn't just style differences, there were mechanical differences.

Would you mind putting the clips up and telling me the differences?

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

Originally posted by td25:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
power,

That's a good point, but I would say they all do "some" of the same things mechanically. It's those things that we should gear in on. Just as all pitchers don't do exactly the same thing mechanically.

This is a true statement.

Watching a replay of the 1971 & 1972 All Star Games, I noticed some differences in mechanics between the hitting styles of players like Rod Caru & Pete Rose vs. Players like Roberto Clemente & Willie Stargel. It wasn't just style differences, there were mechanical differences.

Would you mind putting the clips up and telling me the differences?

Watched it on the MLB channel on TV, not the internet. Basically Carew & Rose didn't c0ck their hips or take a stride. Carew didn't c0ck his hands back either, they were pretty still until he swung forward. This contrasted Clemente and Stargell who both cocked their hips prior to their long strides, and both cocked their hands back. Just one example that stood out to me.

Basically Carew and Rose didn't really seem to "load up" prior to their swings, or barely did. They seemed more like arm swingers, where Clemente & Stargell were the opposite. Hard to argue with the results for any of these guys.

Carew and Rose didn't load as much because they were trying to clear the infield.

Clemente and Stargell loaded more because they were trying to clear the fence.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Carew and Rose didn't load as much because they were trying to clear the infield.

Clemente and Stargell loaded more because they were trying to clear the fence.

Power .....

You are exactamente! The best Coach I ever read; Coach Newton (as in Sir Isaac and his absolute Laws Of Motion) dictates that in all movements of Power, the mechanics must be the same. I agree that throwing a baseball 90+ and hitting a baseball to and beyond the gaps, require power (Power = Mass x Speed squared).

Now to styles, Carew and Ichiro, in their styles, are taking advantage of their speed and have adapted mechanics to get the results they desire. The "Load", and use of the bottom half aren't as pronounced as those who desire to hit with power (so says Quincy; Clemente and Stargell). I grew up watching Clemente in Spring training, what a treat!!

quote:

Now to styles, Carew and Ichiro, in their styles, are taking advantage of their speed and have adapted mechanics to get the results they desire.

I would agree with that completely!

Surely Ichiro would have to be considered a "great" hitter. He has different mechanics AND style than someone like Stargell. This should be very obvious when studying video. So all great hitters do not use identical mechanics. Yet, there are certain things they all do the same way.

Also does anyone have a video clip of Roberto Clemente's swing that they could post? I believe his swing would be very interesting to analize and discuss.

Maybe I'm a bit confused in what falls into the style category and the mechanics category. IMO mechanics involve most everything the body parts do to get to a certain position, rather than simply doing a few certain things like getting to that position.

If one pitcher throws overhand and another sidearm, there are certain principles that stay the same, but if I bend at the waste to throw sidearm, I am using different mechanics IMO. There are still certain things that will be the same, but not all things.

I'm not disputing what some are saying here, other than the definition of mechanics when it comes to all who are successful at throwing or hitting a baseball.

Using an extreme example... Tim Wakefield has a different "style" than other pitchers... are his "mechanics" identical to other successful pitchers?

Clemente Video

Clemente is perhaps my all-time favorite player.

I suppose everyone has already seen this, but just in case they haven't it's kind of interesting.
Ichero in high school
BTW, Even though Clemente was an amazing all around player, I never considered him a true HR type hitter. Stargell on the other hand was more of a power type.

PG - I agree with you on Stargell. Look, if Clemente is my all-time favorite, Stargell is right up there with him as far as the types of players I loved as a kid.

One criticism I have of this forum is that many use players like Bonds and Sheffield as the model on how young players ought to hit. Those are indeed great hitters no doubt. I believe players like Ichiro, Carew, Brett, Rose, Cobb, Ruth, Williams and many other prove there is no exact right way however. Who could possibly argue that Ichiro is not one of the greatest hitters that any one of us has ever seen? At the same time, I am not sure I try and train someone to hit like Ichiro. Does that make any sense to anyone?

One other point that is often lost on Ichiro is he has a CANNON of an arm along with excellent speed. I believe Ichiro is a Hall of Famer someday even if his career ends tomorrow.

CD,

Thanks for the Clemente footage! I can't tell you how many school days I skipped growing up, to see him in Spring training workouts and games. Without a doubt, the best arm I've ever seen! Ichiro is a close second in fielding. He generates arm speed and foot speed that belies his slight stature. I too, wouldn't teach his hitting style. He relies on tremedous hand-eye timing to just get the ball in play. Believe he once again led the majors in infield hit (56 or so). But, I have seen him in BP, specifically trying to "drive the ball," and he could hit that way.

Clemente is a great example to use for hitting. He was a "front foot" hitter long before people knew that may be a good thing.

Have a look at PG's post of Ichiro in high school. Very interesting to see how much more bottom half torque he was creating there, just what I've seen him do in BP or if he wants to!!

Prime - we used to have an MLB scout who posted here - bbscout. If I recall correctly, he liked Larry Walker even more than Clemente. I never got to see Walker play in his prime so I really don't know. Either way, I am sticking with Clemente

I think there are lots and lots of successful hitters who are not classic textbook hitters like Ken Griffey Jr. and what not. I believe players need to find their own styles which are successful for themselves. Sometimes that means inventing their own unique styles and other times it may be emulating other styles.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
CD,

Thanks for the Clemente footage! I can't tell you how many school days I skipped growing up, to see him in Spring training workouts and games. Without a doubt, the best arm I've ever seen! Ichiro is a close second in fielding. He generates arm speed and foot speed that belies his slight stature. I too, wouldn't teach his hitting style. He relies on tremedous hand-eye timing to just get the ball in play. Believe he once again led the majors in infield hit (56 or so). But, I have seen him in BP, specifically trying to "drive the ball," and he could hit that way.

Clemente is a great example to use for hitting. He was a "front foot" hitter long before people knew that may be a good thing.

Have a look at PG's post of Ichiro in high school. Very interesting to see how much more bottom half torque he was creating there, just what I've seen him do in BP or if he wants to!!

To create torque, you have to have equal tension on both sides of the pivot point. "Great hitters" have two pivot points that are torqued, they are the hands and the REAR hip. That is the MECHANICS of a high level swing. How you create the torque is mechanics. Those two pivot points must work together to create stretch and they do that by working in opposite directions of each other. There are many different ways to create that stretch and different ways to sync the two and that is STYLE! And yes, PG, Ichiro does it too.

Oh...and no...Clemente wasn't a "front foot" hitter!

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
PG - I agree with you on Stargell. Look, if Clemente is my all-time favorite, Stargell is right up there with him as far as the types of players I loved as a kid.

One criticism I have of this forum is that many use players like Bonds and Sheffield as the model on how young players ought to hit. Those are indeed great hitters no doubt. I believe players like Ichiro, Carew, Brett, Rose, Cobb, Ruth, Williams and many other prove there is no exact right way however. Who could possibly argue that Ichiro is not one of the greatest hitters that any one of us has ever seen? At the same time, I am not sure I try and train someone to hit like Ichiro. Does that make any sense to anyone?

One other point that is often lost on Ichiro is he has a CANNON of an arm along with excellent speed. I believe Ichiro is a Hall of Famer someday even if his career ends tomorrow.

I'll go one step further. Ichiro, may very well be the best all around player of all time.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

Using an extreme example... Tim Wakefield has a different "style" than other pitchers... are his "mechanics" identical to other successful pitchers?

I wouldn't consider Wakefield a "great" Pitcher.

Would you consider Phil Niekro a "great" pitcher?

quote:

Oh...and no...Clemente wasn't a "front foot" hitter!

Probably a difference in Semantecs and I don't want to get into the heavy mechanics debate. But a hitter that finishes with his weight forward (this MUST happen to clear way for the hips to fire, knee & foot FOLLOW the hips) is in my language, a front foot hitter. Pretty visible on the Clemente video. That's the example "Trillion" cited earlier that he was seeing on tapes of many of the better hitters ("finishing with weight forward and back foot was not touching at all, or with just the toe"). They, bottom half rotational hitters, come down on the ball, create backspin, hit lots of "ropes" and do drive it out when they "miss" the center of the baseball. Additionally, their mass is already beginning to move forward out of the batters box (that too is good!).

quote:

To create torque, you have to have equal tension on both sides of the pivot point. "Great hitters" have two pivot points that are torqued, they are the hands and the REAR hip. That is the MECHANICS of a high level swing. How you create the torque is mechanics. Those two pivot points must work together to create stretch and they do that by working in opposite directions of each other.

Power, not sure how the above relates to my discussion with CD. Any who .... your statement is confusing to me. It's obvious you know of which you speak. I think, however, that by definition you can only pivot on one axis. The stretch and rotation, in the load, is created by the seperation of the front side (generally the front foot stride or action) from the rear hip and hands loading back. If you are saying that seperation should occur between the back hip and hands then I strongly agree, to disagree! The result of doing that is what I would call "leaking your power." Kind of like when a hitter gets fooled by a great off-speed pitch. His mechanics are now out of sync; the hips have opened and foreward weight shift has occurred. He, however through great skill, was able to keep his hands back and "muscle or slap the ball into play. You can't generate power from that position with those mechanics.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

To create torque, you have to have equal tension on both sides of the pivot point. "Great hitters" have two pivot points that are torqued, they are the hands and the REAR hip. That is the MECHANICS of a high level swing. How you create the torque is mechanics. Those two pivot points must work together to create stretch and they do that by working in opposite directions of each other.

Power, not sure how the above relates to my discussion with CD. Any who .... your statement is confusing to me. It's obvious you know of which you speak. I think, however, that by definition you can only pivot on one axis. The stretch and rotation, in the load, is created by the seperation of the front side (generally the front foot stride or action) from the rear hip and hands loading back. If you are saying that seperation should occur between the back hip and hands then I strongly agree, to disagree! The result of doing that is what I would call "leaking your power." Kind of like when a hitter gets fooled by a great off-speed pitch. His mechanics are now out of sync; the hips have opened and foreward weight shift has occurred. He, however through great skill, was able to keep his hands back and "muscle or slap the ball into play. You can't generate power from that position with those mechanics.

The barrel pivots around the hands and the torso pivots on top of the rear hip and weighted rear leg. The swing weights the front foot. The swing transfers the weight. Great hitters do not shift to the front side and then swing.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

Oh...and no...Clemente wasn't a "front foot" hitter!

Probably a difference in Semantecs and I don't want to get into the heavy mechanics debate. But a hitter that finishes with his weight forward (this MUST happen to clear way for the hips to fire, knee & foot FOLLOW the hips) is in my language, a front foot hitter. Pretty visible on the Clemente video. That's the example "Trillion" cited earlier that he was seeing on tapes of many of the better hitters ("finishing with weight forward and back foot was not touching at all, or with just the toe"). They, bottom half rotational hitters, come down on the ball, create backspin, hit lots of "ropes" and do drive it out when they "miss" the center of the baseball. Additionally, their mass is already beginning to move forward out of the batters box (that too is good!).

The hips fire before the weight shifts in a high level swing.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Would you consider Phil Niekro a "great" pitcher?

No. I consider him a great competitor and a Pitcher that had one good pitch.

I understand where you’re coming from. But in this case I would have to say Phil Neikro was a “great” pitcher as well as a great competitor. Results rather than mechanics are what create “greatness”. Let’s at least agree that he was a “great” knuckleball pitcher.

Neikro is in the Hall of Fame and he won 318 games with a lifetime ERA of 3.35. He had over 3,000 strikeouts and gave up about 400 hits less than innings pitched in a 24 year MLB career. He led the league in strikeouts in 1977 and finished second in 1978. He led the league with a 1.87 ERA in 1967. He threw 45 shutouts. He also won the “gold glove” five times.

I don’t think you can do the above without being a “great” pitcher.

quote:

The hips fire before the weight shifts in a high level swing.

I can somewhat fire my hips without any weight shift from the back leg, but not to the degree I need to achieve maximum force.

I am not an expert on hitting and you may very well be. But I believe that I have a fair "working knowledge" of what it takes to create power based on my experiences, what I see among hitters, and what I know of Physics. That being said, it doesn't mean I'm right, just that I'm comfortable in what I believe. If I stay on the backside, my rotational torque is limited. By shifting somewhat to the front side, however, I allow the hips to really fire. Some hitters shift weight on stride/foot placement, some stay back (I really think this action seperates a more linear style from a rotational one).

Martial artist practice this principle in every "breaking demonstration" ever performed. You shift weight off the back side to the forward placed foot and explosively fire your hips and hands (or foot) thru the target. Often the rear heel leaves the floor, much like the rear foot "toe touch" seen in many power hitters.
Attempting to break with the weight back, results in a broken hand, not broken boards or bricks.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I understand where you’re coming from. But in this case I would have to say Phil Neikro was a “great” pitcher as well as a great competitor. Results rather than mechanics are what create “greatness”. Let’s at least agree that he was a “great” knuckleball pitcher.

Neikro is in the Hall of Fame and he won 318 games with a lifetime ERA of 3.35. He had over 3,000 strikeouts and gave up about 400 hits less than innings pitched in a 24 year MLB career. He led the league in strikeouts in 1977 and finished second in 1978. He led the league with a 1.87 ERA in 1967. He threw 45 shutouts. He also won the “gold glove” five times.

I don’t think you can do the above without being a “great” pitcher.

Totally agree!!

Gaylord Perry was another who had one great pitch

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I understand where you’re coming from. But in this case I would have to say Phil Neikro was a “great” pitcher as well as a great competitor. Results rather than mechanics are what create “greatness”. Let’s at least agree that he was a “great” knuckleball pitcher.

Neikro is in the Hall of Fame and he won 318 games with a lifetime ERA of 3.35. He had over 3,000 strikeouts and gave up about 400 hits less than innings pitched in a 24 year MLB career. He led the league in strikeouts in 1977 and finished second in 1978. He led the league with a 1.87 ERA in 1967. He threw 45 shutouts. He also won the “gold glove” five times.

I don’t think you can do the above without being a “great” pitcher.

I'll agree he was a GREAT knuckleball Pitcher and certainly had some years with GREAT numbers. How many knuckleball Pitchers get drafted a year though? Throwing a knuckleball is a last resort, IMO. If a High School Pitcher throws a knuckleball, they usually take it out of his pitch selection. It might be because no one can catch it, cut they still take it out.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

The hips fire before the weight shifts in a high level swing.

I can somewhat fire my hips without any weight shift from the back leg, but not to the degree I need to achieve maximum force.

I am not an expert on hitting and you may very well be. But I believe that I have a fair "working knowledge" of what it takes to create power based on my experiences, what I see among hitters, and what I know of Physics. That being said, it doesn't mean I'm right, just that I'm comfortable in what I believe. If I stay on the backside, my rotational torque is limited. By shifting somewhat to the front side, however, I allow the hips to really fire. Some hitters shift weight on stride/foot placement, some stay back (I really think this action seperates a more linear style from a rotational one).

Martial artist practice this principle in every "breaking demonstration" ever performed. You shift weight off the back side to the forward placed foot and explosively fire your hips and hands (or foot) thru the target. Often the rear heel leaves the floor, much like the rear foot "toe touch" seen in many power hitters.
Attempting to break with the weight back, results in a broken hand, not broken boards or bricks.

I never said the weight "stays on the backside", what I said was the "swing shifts the weight". The martial artist does the same thing, they shift and punch, not shift then punch. The great hitters shift and swing, not shift then swing.

Interesting thread, but now my head hurts.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Take two aspirin and call Power in the morning.....

Merry Christmas, Blue!

A very, merry Christmas to you, Power......

May the reason for the Season be upon you and yours, my friend.......

this post is dumb. do people not know that there are things called opinions...

I would have to say that it is a fact that modern players cannot bunt effectively for even a sacrifice.

This is not an opinion.

How does a player go through high school, college and minor league batting coaches without learning how to bunt?