Torque the handle?

Ryno23,

Run...Run Now. I've been trying for a couple weeks to get a handle/answer on this and now I'm trapped.

It you don't run now, be sure to bring food and water...I can't last much longer.

If this warning doesn't work, I'd say just start reading any thread started over the past month. Torque is like a virus and is everywhere.

Don't blame me...I warned you.

At a "mechanical" as opposed to biomechanical (how living beings do it) level, the action is best described as torque applied via the hands to the handle.

For reliable interpretations of models that show how this involves "back arm/top hand inertia" which quickens the swing, see:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/92831.html

for links to models and interpretation.

When humans "do it", they can actually actively/consciously apply and feel this mechanic start before the shoulders turn as part of a "running start", and see this on video.

Whether the "feel" is described as Torque or somethin else is a different matter.

It is easier to see than sorting out the tilt vs turn of the shoulders on video, but still a challenge.

Don't even waste your time on this nonsense. It isn't worth your time. If you're interested, a good rebuttal is at

http://www.******.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5282

There are also other several good posts on that website which do a great job or rebutting the pseudo-science of handle torque.

The term 'handle torque' is a misnomer.

Torque is an external force applied to cause rotation.

One cannot applly torque to swing a bat although a batter could be spun with the application of force on the bat end.

This is a common misconception when the swing and bat speed are rationalized using the conservation of angular momentum.

Quincy,

YOU DA MAN!!! A LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL!!!

Man, somebody give me hug...I feel like crying.LOL

I hope Ryno23 reads this soon...it could save his sanity.

Next thing you know, someone will say torque is actually the rotational path the bat follows to contact.

JJA-

you have admitted there is torque in the running start, you are now just quibbling over how much effect it has on trajectory, Nice try.

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=355&st=285

Posted: Sep 26 2006, 07:32 AM


JJA to Teacherman,

"Yes, Mankin would call that top hand torque. Near the beginning of his video, he has a top view of John Elliot hitting. As Elliot starts to accelerate the bat into the bat plane, Mankin stops for a few moments and says something like "See that, that's top hand torque". So, yes, I've heard the golf club analogy, I've heard the archer on the bowstring, etc., but because of that John Elliot analysis, I conclude that would you indeed are seeing is what he would call top hand torque."

Quincy-

I think your ball on string model is a darn good one, BUT I think that human muscle action can be biomechanically applied to torque handle as the equivalent of an "outside force" as compared to passive mechanical models (or, JJA, to purposely sabotage models to discredit a perceived rival as Ny3an did when setting up his model with the forces MISdirected).

Since the bat is a rigid "lever", the arms/forearms/wrists can apply torque which fires the bathead out with the system resembling ball on string more and more as the bathead lines up with the forearm.

In any case the "string tension"/radius at the lead elbow needs to retain connection to the torso/shoulder's center of rotation.

When handle torque forces the bathead outside the radius to the hands, the bathead fires while the torso keeps turning.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The term 'handle torque' is a misnomer.

Torque is an external force applied to cause rotation.

One cannot applly torque to swing a bat although a batter could be spun with the application of force on the bat end.

This is a common misconception when the swing and bat speed are rationalized using the conservation of angular momentum.

Can the hands not be an external force on the bat??? What about a torque wrench? Does it not apply torque to the nut or bolt???

Tom,

You are confusing torque (which turns inward to an axis) with propulsion (force which sets in motion).

What you refer to as bat torque, I would call bat whip. If a batter whips the bat in conjunction with triceps flex and extension, bat speed will increase.

PTA,

If you have ever used a torque wrench, you would know and understand that you are turning externally towards a central point.

The swing is propulsion away from the body with string tension causing angular acceleration and centripetal force.

The motion of the bat at go has very little to do with the motion of the body if done right. You are looking at the swing as a whole. The torque of the handle comes from the hands and only the hands. The torque is created at a point between the hands which is the center of that axis.

powertoallfields, I'm trying to think about how the hands and only the hands can create torque. I'm missing something in my physiology understanding. Pressures are being applied by various parts of the body and that knob demonstrates minimum displacement at best. Reference the jersey number.

quote:

The torque is created at a point between the hands which is the center of that axis.

If this were the case then the hands could only torque the hands.

In order to torque the bat there would have to be an axis at the bat head that is being rotated.

If torque is created between the hands, from where is it being exerted?

Are you trying to say that the bat is creating the torque ?

Quincy, I think you and I are both thinking along the same lines. I apologize for that.

Why apologize?

Your point was well presented.

There isn't an iota of evidence that handle torque is a significant contributor to swing speed. As described by Dr Adair in his book "The Physics of Baseball", force is applied to the bat along the length of the bat, not perpindicular to it. In other words, there is virtually no handle torque being applied to the bat that impacts bat speed. Tom's quotes - as usual taken completely out of context - are an attempt to obfuscate the fact that handle torque is an insignificant contributor to swing speed.

Like I said, JJA has admitted torque, as in his latest ruminations at BBF:


"...force on the handle is directed along the bat, not perpendicular to the bat, i.e. there is virtually no handle torque"


Like the old joke says, we're just arguing about the price now.

Look at the ***** sims again JJA. Note the more the back arm weighs, the quicker the swing.

That has nothing to do with force along the bat.

Nyma-n seems to be revising quite a bit these days, even taking shots at his old faithful.

quote:

Nyma-n seems to be revising quite a bit these days, even taking shots at his old faithful.

Revising?.....It's about time....

There is nothing to revise. Handle torque does not contribute significantly to swing speed. It absolutely does not contribute 50% of the swing speed as Mankin maintains, not even close. I've maintained this for many years as you know, as has "N". There hasn't been the slightest shred of evidence, not a scintilla, that contradicts this statement. Dream on. Adair explained this 17 years ago now. He was right then and he is right now. All of the baseball literature as well as the golf literature confirm these findings, as you well know. Ph.D.'s in physics, biomechanics, etc. all agree on this, yet Teacherman and Mankin - guys with no scientific background at all - believe they have the science right and all the Ph.D.'s are wrong despite having no evidence at all in support of their position. To each his own I suppose.

Oh, Adair and "N" said it.....Well, that explains it............

Those scientists and Ph.D's ever hit against MLB pitching?

Great hitters sure talked about the hands alot when discussing hitting....Probably not a Ph.D. or scientist in the bunch.......

Once a batter has developed a good swing, all that is left is hand-eye coordination.

See the ball, swing at the ball and hit the ball.

Most good hitters, outside of Ted Williams, wouldn't care why they can hit well. They would only care that they hit well.

This is probably the reason that the better hitters do not make good hitting instructors.