Torque the handle?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

quote:

Originally posted by XV:
Quincy, how does one check his swing if he is using "extension" to "power" the swing, in other words, "using the triceps" that you preach about?

How does one check his swing if he is using handle torque to power the swing?

The answers to these two questions will show what you know about a high-level swing, and how the human body works.

Hint: the answer is not the same for both questions.

The answer is actually quite different for each.

In the tricep swing, a batter does not check swing. He follows Joe McCarthy's advice. If you're gonna swing, swing.

In the box grip swing, the bat is in the check swing position for the majority of the travel. Swing is initiated late by rear arm tricep flex.

quote:

This guy is using a "box grip". He also does not use tricep flex. He uses supination of the hand to "turn" the barrel. He does NOT extend his elbow. He tucks his elbow. He does this with his bicep and back muscles. The bicep also supinates the forearm and is a "better" supinator when the elbow is bent. Why would you even post a video in which you don't even see what is happening? Why would you post a video that, once again, proves yourself wrong?

quote:

Scouts want BAT SPEED period. They don't care if its 10 frames as long as it results in consistently hard contact.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

How can he be using a box grip with only one hand?

For that matter, how can one align the knuckles of both hands when using one hand?

The video is not what I say is a good swing, it is an example of good bat speed with one hand.

He is short to the zone and long through it. I couldn't guess at his swing with two hands since it isn't shown.

Coach B,

Although I have had conversation with many players who have made a few dollars playing ball, every player is different so what works for a Sheffield, Burgess or Gomez may not help the next hitter.

I'd be a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

quote:

He is not "long through the zone", however you define it.

quote:

the Reds think they can make him a player,

quote:

His hitting stats so far are dreadful as you know so DMac's admonitions were spot on, and this was before the draft.

quote:

As you are also aware, the line of Stubbs (from Baseball America) was that he was an athletic freak, but there was a concern from "a few scouts" that he had a slow bat.

quote:

OK, many scouts don't use DMac's techniques but I have been told that other organizations do count frames identically to DMac.

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
Oh, and yes, bat speed is of course important, at least as important as swing quickness. But it isn't everything. The guys with the best bat speed play slow pitch softball, where they hit nearly 120 mph compared to approximately 100 mph as the best MLB speeds. That's what makes baseball so tough. You have to have quickness to hit a 100 mph Joel Zumaya fastball, but if you don't have any power, it's a tough road to the bigs. Our challenge as coaches is to teach both swing quickness and good bat speed.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

I don't eat red meat...I'll take the McSalad....

quote:

Sure, DMac's son may very well need tip and rip to get to the bigs, but that problem is in the 99.999% percentile. The kid was captain of a strong Pac-10 school on a full ride. He got that far without tip and rip. He would not have gotten that far without the rest of the fundamentals. That's all that guys like me are getting at. The vast majority of kids we work with need the basics, and basics like maintaining the box can be useful for getting beginners to an intermediate stage. But the same drills I give a 9 year old beginner girl at 4'6" and 60 lbs isn't the same advice I would give a 6'4" 210lb Brett McMillan

quote:

This is false. Assuming quickness and speed is already there,

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:



powertoallfields, I'm trying to think about how the hands and only the hands can create torque. I'm missing something in my physiology understanding. Pressures are being applied by various parts of the body and that knob demonstrates minimum displacement at best. Reference the jersey number.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
JJA-

Changing the subject again. You have no other alternative.

Handle torque exists at the mechanical level in mlb pattern swings.

N$$an's model shows how this force can quicken the swing.

Without handle torque there is no early batspeed, nor is there a control mechanism for late adjustment/plane matching.

Frame counting is not useful unless you know first you are comparing apples to apples, that is, counting frames comparing hitters who are already sorted into pattern, mlb or non mlb (such as "PCR").

Once sorted into pattern, landmarks can be identified consistently enough to apply some frame counting, BUT in any case whether or not the hitter has an MLB pattern swing is FAR more important than frame counting.

You should learn to recognize the pattern which bluedog is trying to explain to you.

No amount of swing quickening can enable a PCR swing to work in MLB. MLB requires early batspeed and late adjustment. Batspeed alone or trying to calculate percentage of batspeed due to torque is a waste of time. As Mankin says (below) you need quick acceleration around the entire swing plane, beginning with rearward acceleration.

PCR hitters who adhere to the PCR guideline that says torque does not exist in the swing are FORCED into a non mlb pattern which lacks early batspeed and can not be effective no matter how short you make the swing in terms of frame count. This is why PCR or "PCRW" is always OBSESSED with bat drag. There is no other alternative if you adhere to the guidelines.

How you conceptualize the pattern/goal at the mechanical level can have a big influence on how you communicate for teaching as Mankin's points out here:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/14865.html

-----------

"When practicing your swing, it is important to keep in mind that the purpose of swing mechanics is not to get the hips to rotate ahead of the hands and shoulders, or even to take the hands to the zone. The ultimate purpose of all swing mechanics is to attain maximum acceleration of the bat-head around the 'entire' swing plane.

"With this in mind, when setting up your practice program, I would suggest that one of the most limiting factors to a hitter’s development is his tendency to only concentrates on those mechanics that swing the bat-head forward toward the ball. However, in a high level swing, before the bat-head arcs forward toward the ball, it must first be accelerated rearward from its launch position behind the head back to the lag position (first 90 degrees of acceleration).

"Therefore, as you prepare to initiate your swing, I would suggest you envision mechanics that would accelerate the bat-head around the entire 180+ degrees to contact -- instead of just concentrating on mechanics that accelerate the bat forward the last 90 degrees (from the lag position).

"As a hitter initiates the swing, it is very tough to keep his hands back when he is concentrating on swinging the bat-head forward. If a coach would have the hitter envision the bat-head first accelerating back toward the catcher at initiation, the batters hands would have to stay back to accelerate the bat-head in that direction.

"When we ask the body to perform an athletic movement, the sub-conscious mind will set up a motor program for the rest of the body to aid in accomplishing the task.

"Therefore, I have found that if I can get the batter to correctly envision the bat-head first accelerating rearward to the lag position before he directs his energy toward the ball, the more likely he will generate the most productive hip and shoulder rotation to accomplish the task.

"If, on the other hand, the batter’s vision of the swing is only forward, he will have the tendency to first extend the hands. This is mainly accomplished by using the arms to thrust the hands and knob, which does not require good hip and shoulder rotation. With this vision of the swing, keeping the hands back is at odds with his forward vision. He now has to consciously think, “Hips First.” -- Using cues to override a batter’s natural tendency to think forward is not as effective as changing how they invision the swing.

"Once I feel the batter is starting to have the correct vision of the swing, I use the cue, “Rotate the heel (initiate lower-body rotation) – Rotate the bat-head (initiate the acceleration back toward the catcher”). I ask the student, “what must you do with the top-hand as your elbow lowers to accelerate the bat-head back at the catcher?” After a few attempts, they learn to hold back (or pull back) the top-hand at the shoulder and allow shoulder rotation to accelerate the bat-head back. When they start to get the bat to accelerate correctly, the hips just naturally rotate ahead of the hands and they have the “L” in the back-leg at contact."

Jack Mankin



----------

quote:

3rd Dmac was the only scout who uses that gage. Scouts don'y count frames. Heck they don't have time to sit and count frames if they did.

quote:

....there is only a small amount of torque from launch until contact.

quote:

It does not get any better than this post!!!

quote:

The kind of segmented sequential swing advocated by others sacrifice all these virtues.

quote:

I have Mankin's video and I have read these posts as well as a lot of others on different forums.

quote:

3. It keeps maintains the intersection of the bat plane and the trajectory of the ball the longest of any of the models

quote:

1. It gives the batter the longest time to actually see the pitch before launching the swing

quote:

2. It gives the batter the greatest bat speed through the strike zone.

quote:

.....but if torque was so important, wouldn't you want both hands fully on the bat?

quote:

Originally posted by jja:
Bluedog,

Don't forget, as Adair points out in his book, once the ball gets roughly half way to the plate, there is no more adjustability. The brain and muscles of the body can't fire fast enough to give you adjustability after that point. As Adair says with some humor, you could actually close your eyes after the ball is half way to the plate and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. So the intuitively obvious notion, something that most people would swear by, that you're changing your swing during the swing, is simply wrong. The body can't process the information in the brain fast enough and the muscles can't fire fast enough to effect these changes.

Yes, I do remember William' off hand comment. A personal preference to be sure, but if torque was so important, wouldn't you want both hands fully on the bat?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The hand torque that he refers to is the weight of the bat head exerting force on the wrists causing them to bend. (rearward first blur often seen on video)

That has to be a really heavy bat, lol. What force? From what power source? Is there something in the hips that can put force on the wrists and cause them to bend??? Wow!


The arms extend to react and 'catch up' to the bat head speed only to have the wrists uncocked again by the weight of the bat head in motion. (second blur on video before contact)


Quinc,

What put the bathead in motion in the first place?



Notice the first move is pulling the bat down into the swing at aproximately a 90 degree angle to the bat.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Do we ever know if a MLB hitter had it all the way or made a late adjustment to the ball?....Probably not......But, I do think this was a late swing adjustment to the ball...

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Both hands.

I often refer to this action as if the batter were throwing the bat at the base on the foul line in front of him.