Torquing the bat handle....

Bdog,

Is this the same thing that richard believes. From what I've read, i think he and Mankin are on the same page, but maybe not the same paragraph.

Also, are you speaking of TRYING to apply torguq or it just happening as a result of the balistic movement of the swing.

I don't speak for Richard......He would have to explain his thoughts to you.......

I am trying to apply torque, absolutely........Load the hands against the hips........Not, the shoulders against the hips....

If some torque "just happens" as a result of the swing, then, you are powering with the shoulders........Too slow and cumbersome, IMO........And, a hindrance to making late swing adjustments........

I just don't think he could do this without torquing the bat handle.........

The hands and arms must find this swing plane late, IMO..........There is a hesitation in this swing.......I don't believe the shoulders turn forward, wait, then turn again......

If the hands begin a slow torquing process, the bat will be turning backwards in a momentum plane until the hands and arms find the swing plane......Then, the hand torque speeds up and sends the bat barrel into the ball......In this scenario, the shoulders are bypassed.......

This is what I see happening.......

BlueDog,

Slow torquing process?

So now in the time it takes to blink a couple of times you can slow torque the bat with the hands and still make contact?

You have been watching too many slo mo animated gif's. This is not reality.

I heard an instructor tell my son to first open the hips, then pull the heck out of the knob. The bottom hand would act as a hinge. Once he had had perfected that, he said he would show him how MLBers added the top hand for the ultra high bat speed. I'm assuming this is along the same line as the Mankin/BlueDog thinking?

This is a clip Chameleon posted in another thread.............He stated that he felt he missed the "go" by one frame...So, the 7th "nope" should be "yes".........That is the point I believe the hand torquing speeds up to square the bat barrel on the ball..........

quote:

You have been watching too many slo mo animated gif's. This is not reality.

Ray, actually none of them are animated....They're all the real thing......

I told you what I see....Why don't you tell us what you think is happening in the MLB swing?

quote:

........you can slow torque the bat with the hands and still make contact?

Let's see, Ray..........

MLB hitters move the bat before they choose the swing plane.......

Let's put this together, Ray...

If the bat is moving and they don't know the swing plane yet, is it moving at maximum batspeed?

Now, Ray, if you know of some dead-hand hitters in MLB, please help me out and let me know......Better yet, please show me the video........

Do you think he has the swing plane figured out before the bat starts moving?



Can he stand and wait on the ball without moving the bat?

Another good description of tip and rip running start in this clasic thread DMAC participated in:

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=355&st=0

Thanks for the link Tom. I had not read those posts before.

That big thread used to be full with clips, obviously your dad's are no longer there, and neither are Richard's but the content is good. Dmac continually posting clips and trying to experiment with what Teacherman was talking about, it seemed to be a missing piece I was searching for.

DeeMax are you the one with the Sadahara Oh clips that Doug references in some of these posts? He said his son had some clips of Oh.

I got a couple. Ill post them here if you want to copy them. My brother may have some as well.

I wish I had more, but these are the only two clips I have of Oh as well.

I'm really surprised this thread has slowed like this.....

If I'm wrong, say so.......

We learn by discussing..........

quote:

If I'm wrong, say so.......

I dont know if there is a right/wrong here, but there is definetley some confusion.

I see what is being refered to in video, but im not sure hitters are getting there with handle torque in mind. It may be a result of something else...

I dont know for sure yet.

If the cue "handle torque" is interpreted by the student, and you get positive results, then its not wrong IMO... The opposite can also be true.

JW said

quote:

There are NO always or nevers in this game nor are there any bad cues. It's all about how the individual athlete applies things.

IMO there is an awful lot of truth in this quote.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

If I'm wrong, say so.......

I dont know if there is a right/wrong here, but there is definetley some confusion.

I see what is being refered to in video, but im not sure hitters are getting there with handle torque in mind. It may be a result of something else...

I dont know for sure yet.

If the cue "handle torque" is interpreted by the student, and you get positive results, then its not wrong IMO... The opposite can also be true.

JW said

quote:

There are NO always or nevers in this game nor are there any bad cues. It's all about how the individual athlete applies things.

IMO there is an awful lot of truth in this quote.

I agree with all of this. THANKS

From what I can determine, there are two schools of thought here. The non-torque guys (power from shoulder turn) vs the torque guys.

I think they both are largely correct on much of the swing, but disagree on little enough to sustain a 100 year war. I really don't think they are so much far apart as they are stubborn.

The early action by the hands, which brings the barrel from forward tilt to the lower/flatter slot before coming forward seems to be the sticking point.

So, what causes the early blur? Is it hand torque? Or, is it rear arm slotting and shoulder complex/upper arm movement?

I think each camp allows some liberal interpretation to support thier argument and refute the other. Again, I see it as interpretational difference. The "torque" from the torque camp is not a rotation or swivel. It is a change of the hand direction as the bottom hand, which was under and behind (45% angle) the top hand, begins to come forward and upward, and the top hand knuckles level off and face rearward. This creates a flattening of the hands. But, the hands have definately NOT begun to rotate the barrel (I refer to it as "hold the load").

At the same time as the hands doing the above, the rear upper arm and shoulder are also very active. The rear arm is slotting downward and the rear shoulder loads/unloads (I see it as similar -but lesser- load/unload to a boxer's punch).

Try slotting the rear arm/front arm without turning the hands. Try turning the hands without slotting the arms. This is why I see them not as far apart as they like to think.

The danger in the cues are:

Torquing the hands - it does not mean early rotation or swivel, causing the barrel to lose load. As the front elbow raises, and the rear elbow drops, without the hands moving forward, the hands torque/float around a point between the top hand pinky and the bottom hand thumb/index.

Power by shoulder - focusing on pulling the front shoulder is a bad byproduct or misinterpretation. But, as the rear elbow raises, creating stretch, and then drops, the rear shoulder loads/unloads before tilt and turn.

This all happens as the hips have opened creating the seperation both sides agree on. The hips have opened creating stretch, and clearing the path for the slotting rear arm/tilting shoulder/turning shoulder complex and the now rotating hands to rotate/swivel the barrel into the ball.

But, the hands definately turn as the rear arm/shoulder slot, tilt and turn. I think they mutually coexist. The just don't yet swivel/rotate. And, the shoulder power comes from the rear shoulder/upper arm.

Pitch height will also have an effect on how much of the early blur is caused by hand direction/angle change (and arm slotting) and/or shoulder tilt. IOW, a higher pitch has more hand change (or arm slotting movement) while the shoulders stay more level, while a lower pitch will see increased shoulder tilt joining the hand/arm action (thus more early barrel blur).

my 2 cents.

Hey there wayback.....

There is more to it than rotating the forearms, IMO........

There is a torque in the hands that needs to be created........This is the power that controls the bat barrel during the whole swing process.........

This hand torque is not set by raising the back shoulder...It is an active torquing of the hands.......To really load the hands against the hips, this torque in the hands must be created......

This is the torque that I believe Mankin refers to in his top hand torque theory.....It is a pulling of the hands against each other..I just don't feel any one hand dominating the torquing process.......

And, this hand torquing controls the bat barrel during the whole swing process.......It's what squares up the bat barrel on the ball, IMO......

quote:

But, the hands definately turn as the rear arm/shoulder slot, tilt and turn. I think they mutually coexist. The just don't yet swivel/rotate. And, the shoulder power comes from the rear shoulder/upper arm.

I don't believe there is any shoulder power.........The shoulder slotting doesn't control anything.....Shoulders are a linkage and are controlled by the hands, IMO.....

Hi BlueDog.

I also believe there is hand torque. That early torque creates a load in the hands/wrist that is maintained during the shoulder load/arm slot until the signal to release it and rotate the barrel into the ball.

I just don't feel the torque theories/shoulder theories are mutually exclusive. I think it is the theories when taken to extremes and the ensuing misinterpretations (unintentionally or otherwise) where the problems lie.

I'm still figuring out, but feel a lot closer.

What you guys are missing is the tricep flex that exerts the greatest force in starting the swing.

As the bat is in motion in the downward plane, hand torque assists the speed of the bat in the circular path which allows the centripetal accelleration in the angular motion.

Tricep flex is the often overlooked key to proper use of the arms in everything from a punch to a swing.

Quincy,

Can you illustrate this tricep flex you speak of with a clip or some photos?

quote:

I just don't feel the torque theories/shoulder theories are mutually exclusive.

Wayback, I, now, feel they are exclusive..............One must control the other......I believe it's important for the hitter to know which one is in control.........

If not, then, it's an any road will take you there thing.......

While I find this entire thread rather interesting if not confusing. My curiosity level won't let me quit reading.

However, I wonder why, after all the camps, clinics, showcases and private lessons I've paid for and attended. I've just now heard of this subject.

Perhaps it's because we've just realized it? Maybe just learning how to verbalize it?

Have all the great hitting coaches of the past been wrong?

Or have they been "splainin it different"????

quote:

However, I wonder why, after all the camps, clinics, showcases and private lessons I've paid for and attended. I've just now heard of this subject.

What subject, in particular, are you referring to?.....Hand torque?

Yep. Never have heard actualy torque discussed. torquing the bat handle. Nope, never. Not until now.

Hand torquing, does it exist or not??? is a topic on another message board right now.......

I can't post there, because I've been banned from that board.......A lifetime ban, it tells me......

The moderator has an agenda I obviously didn't agree with.......So, he banned me.......

I'm enjoying reading the banter, anyway......

Blue, BBF?

Dang, I was banned after five posts. Didn't even say anything controversial. Wow! Is that site sensitive!

Wayback, that's the one.......

Some boards encourage discussion and some have agendas.........

I'm thankful we have a board here free from agendas.......

quote:

Originally posted by beemax:
Quincy,

Can you illustrate this tricep flew you speak of with a clip or some photos?

You see the tricep flex on almost every swing taken in any sport. The exception would be the shoulder/bicep swing.

To understand the arm muscles, try this experiment. Make an 'L' with your extended arm. Now when you raise your hand to your shoulder, you are employing the biceps. When you extend your arm, you are using your triceps.

In the swing, a batter makes an 'L' of sorts with both arms. To swing, the arms should be extended and sent in a downward motion to the ball. The tricep flex would exert the most energy into the swing.

Quincy,

I understand what you are saying.

Do you think that if you told a hitter to "flex your tricep more during your swing" that would help them?

Have you ever heard of players or instructors speak of tricep flex or teach it as a part of the swing?

I tell players not to use their biceps in the swing.

It's easier and clearer than trying to explain the advantages of proper use of the triceps in the swing.

After watching a D-1 fall game, I made the suggestion to a few players I noticed were doing the short arm/bicep/pop up/pull swing. I could see them use the triceps in their second or third at bat in the next game. Vast improvement in their contact and power generated.

I tell batters of all ages to leave the biceps out of the swing.

Wayback,

BBF is usually pretty tolerant. Is it possible they recognized you as someone who was already banned? There are a few special people who don't get it.

quote:

Have all the great hitting coaches of the past been wrong?

Or have they been "splainin it different"????

quote:

.......Never have heard actualy torque discussed. torquing the bat handle. Nope, never. Not until now.

IBDad, just what have you understood them to be saying?.....Where do they say power comes from in the swing?...If not from torque, then where?

The hands are controlling the bat barrel and sending it where it needs to go to square up to the ball.......

The hands control the back elbow, not the other way around.......The bat flattens when the hands let it, not when the back elbow slots, IMO.......

Where's the shoulder scapula load?......I don't see it......If the shoulders power, they must load, first...

I see hands loading against the hips, then hands torquing the bat handle.....

quote:

Where's the shoulder scapula load?......I don't see it......If the shoulders power, they must load, first...

Blue, I agree about hands. How they torque and when they torque/rotate is determinant upon the hitters recognition of what/where the pitch is.

But, as that rear arm goes up, and and my torso begins a forward movement (it is much like a boxer's quick shot)I can load/unload that rear shoulder very quicky and powerfully. Maybe that is something some people can't feel, I don't know.

I feel everything contract (front oblique, rear oblique and serratus anterior, shoulder complex), just before the hands rotate forward. Admittedly, I am not hitting live pitching, so I may be manufacturing what I want to find. Again, I don't know. I just feel "bypass" the shoulders isn't right. My son feels the same, and I trust his judgement a whole lot more than mine.

Certainly, hands are firing like heck, as well.

I agree, I don't see it much on the Kent video, though as the bat blurs when the rear arm goes verticle....the rear hip starts to rotate and rear shoulder starts to release (right then is when I think the shoulder gives it's boxer's jab)and the hands are turning more.

I see it more on the Oh video (when the rear upper arm goes from angle to vertical and the front knee flares), I see the rear shoulder stretch back then give the thrust forward.

quote:

Is it possible they recognized you as someone who was already banned?

I had never posted there before last week. Kind of found it confusing when JP said I was getting tossed "again".