Interesting comments Bob. I attended Seths first few games in the Prospect League. After viewing many HS and 1 season of college, I have developed an "eye".
As I walked up to the first game, I swear I can ID the D1 guys vs the others. There is a "look" and sometimes a quiet confidence.
Imagine what a MLB scout can pick up in just standing around and warming up.
Good Knight;
During the Area Code games and Goodwill Series Int'l, the Scouts and our Coaches called it "body language" [non-verbal communication].
Social Psychology my MA degree. Grad research "Interactionary of Professional Baseball Players"
Bob
@IAmThatGuy posted:@PitchingFan My son is now considering Tennessee. Just waiting on coaches to reach out.
They are free now I am sure he will hear from them tomorrow
Different sport. But recruiting is recruiting …
Geno Auriema (basketball) commented if a kid hits the portal on day one and is committed on day two chances are there was some illegal recruiting going on for months.
The new 1st question a Pro Scout will ask.
WHY did you enter the Portal in 2022?
Bob
@Consultant posted:The new 1st question a Pro Scout will ask.
WHY did you enter the Portal in 2022?
Bob
More money, more playing time, higher caliber program, better coaching, I was forced out.
Those will be the five answers, they all have merit.
Not when the MLB has 20 rounds to scout a players character each answer invites additional in-depth questions.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Not when the MLB has 20 rounds to scout a players character each answer invites additional in-depth questions.
I don't believe that to be true, also transferring is not indicative of character issues. In fact, transferring seems almost more common than not these days. The numbers that get tossed around here would imply that 50% or more of baseball players are not finishing the 4-6 year process at the school they committed to in HS. Being forced out is a theme in 2022.
Transferring to get more playing time is not controversial, it is actually encouraged. Moving onto a higher caliber program where the player in question will be surrounded by more talented players and established coaches should be looked at in a positive manner - they're seeking out the best to become a better player.
What is an MLB scout going to call a 20 year old who says I transferred for a bigger scholarship/ NIL money because it is less of a financial burden on my family? Selfish?
More importantly - it's all within the confines of the rules. NCAA allows this. Whether it should or shouldn't be is a different story but why would players not take advantage of it?
I've never been in a pro interview and maybe I'm wrong on this but at the very least I have a very hard time believing that a group of grown men are going to get together and determine that a 21 year old has makeup issues because he took advantage of the rules put into place by the sanctioning body of college athletics by transferring. "Yes he's 6'6 240 with a 70 fastball, a 70 slider and a 60 curve but he transferred from Kennesaw St to UNC - cross him off the list."
I don't buy it for a second and I don't believe players doing what is best for themselves/family should be looked down upon.
I'm going to guess that what Consultant means is that scouts can tell quite a lot from the way that the player explains it. And that they're looking for attitudes like "I'm too good for this team" or "I deserved more playing time than I got". Not to mention, if it's framed as about scholarship and NIL money, how much would it take to sign them.
During a College game I often visit with pro scouts ask questions. Who are you watching and why? What do your eyes tell you.
Bob, I envision the pitcher in World Series game and his ss makes a error.
How does the pitcher react ? Non verbal communication.
Bob
And what is the relevance of that to transferring/character issues?
This isn't intended to be confrontational., but the year is 2022. I think all the reasons stated come with merit. I don't think taking advantage of all the resources at your disposal would be considered a character flaw.
In Bob’s era there often was a negative connotation associated with a transfer. So I understand his bias. But in today’s world a transfer is not looked at negatively - and in fact many of them are forced onto the player by their original school. Some old school guys (and I’m one of them) have a hard time believing that players are no longer given the opportunity to develop by the schools that initially recruit them. It’s produce now or we will show you the door. So essentially what I’m saying is that PABaseball is spot on with his comments - based on everything that I am seeing. The days of a young player being a good teammate and patiently waiting his turn while he develops are gone. The transfer portal has greatly increased this dynamic. I also believe that MLB scouts understand this development.
Question by College Coach - can the transfer play? Can he help our team win? Will he a strong influence? What is the real reason for transfer? Naturally I know his former coaches and teammates and will check with each. What are his summer team results.
if it about more $$ forget it, next.
Bob
I agree with anotherparent regarding what Bob is saying.
If a player tells a scout he is transferring because he didn't get enough playing time, the scout is going to ask what has he done to believe that he deserved more playing time.
My advice to the player would be.....you better be prepared to give the right answer!
@PABaseball posted:In fact, transferring seems almost more common than not these days. The numbers that get tossed around here would imply that 50% or more of baseball players are not finishing the 4-6 year process at the school they committed to in HS.
But do those players get drafted? I wonder how many drafted players have transferred, vs. not? That would be interesting data. Of course the post-covid data won't be known for a few years yet.
The transfer portal contains hundreds and hundreds of players trying to extend their playing years. Many programs, especially smaller mid D1 programs, with money being so tight, cannot give every 5th year (covid) grad money.
JMO
Different sport, but being a transfer certainly didn't hurt Joe Burrow's draft stock. If the player performs after the transfer, the reasons are kinda irrelevant.
Scout: Look Joe, congrats on winning the national championship and the Heisman and all, but I'm gonna need to understand more about why you transferred from Ohio State after you committed to them and they gave you a full scholarship for 3 years?
Joe: Coach told me I wouldn't start and I wanted more playing time.
Scout: And what exactly had you done to believe that you deserved more playing time after losing the QB competition every year and only throwing 2 TDs in 3 years?
Joe: ...
Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say those were not the questions scouts were asking him.
the last 15 or so posts are the exact reason why you need diverse leadership in programs and companies. Yes there are old school scouts out there who will agree with and act exactly as Bob has stated, they aren't at the top of their games anymore and certainly are being left behind but it doesn't mean there isn't good reasoning behind what they are looking at. They have years of success and certainly know what they are doing.
Times change, players change and people change, if scouts can't get past a transfer for whatever reason they aren't going to be in the scouting business very much longer, ultimately it comes down to quality of player and makeup. If you judge them on 1970's code of conduct you are going to get buried.
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:25 Gardner Webb were in the portal last year and 36 this year and only 2 names are the same. last year 8 of them were graduate students. I don't know what's going on at Gardner Webb....
Gardner Webb has a JV or "Developmental" program, and many of those names in the portal are not on the Varsity roster...
@T_Thomas posted:Gardner Webb has a JV or "Developmental" program, and many of those names in the portal are not on the Varsity roster...
…..and never had a chance to be.
Not sure if anyone has heard about the ACC player that announced he was transfering to another ACC program because it was closer to home and he could play third base. I haven't seen him in the portal, and the coach who promised him 3rd base is gone. It was never a lack of playing time.
Regardless this isn't about elite players who were in every game wanting a change. Big factor for elite players transfering these days is for better NIL and draft opportunities. The topic here has always been about the player not getting opportunities.
Transferring is a hot topic and probably will be forever and always will be about D1 baseball. I don't see many discussions about D2, D3 transfers.
I have a question. What makes a player who only got in a few opportunities at State U think he can get more at University A?
So you are a player and you feel that the coach didn't have enough time for you? Did you do everything you could to make your way into the line up at one point? Did you work your butt off to become a better athlete? Coaches fill in the line up card, but players determine who plays and who sits because the line up changes continuously day to day, week by week, month by month on a college roster. It's for most programs about the post season. Players get hurt, player changes position. Pitchers go from reliever to starters, starters to relievers, position players to DH, DH to position, etc. That's what I mean about players determining who plays, etc. Example, UF lost their Friday night starter. This changed everything. New opportunities came available.
When an opportunity comes the player NEEDS to be ready. If the performance didn't workout, back to the drawing board. A good coach will do whatever he can to make you better. Unfortunetly some don't.
What is amazing is that at many of the elite programs player facilities are unbelievable. There is everything needed to help a player be a better athlete. Everything. Players can make use of these facilities at anytime. Yes, not all are created equal. But every program has a training center. When a coach from an elite program hears about a hard working mid D1 player in the portal, he grabs him. They usually find out through scouts about how the player performed. So the scout can play an important role in the transfer.
Yes I agree that coaches share some of the blame. You don't need 40, 45 on your roster. You should not hide arms in your bullpen. A coach should give every player a fair opportunity and most will burn the redshirt unless there is an injury.
Here is a story of a player that was brought up previously by someone here, Wyatt Langford. Got in 4 games as a freshman. He admits he wasn't in the best shape to be an every game player so he spent endless hours in the gym, changed his diet and was a stud in this fall. .355 BA, 26 HR earned him an invitation to USA tryouts. If all goes well he will be an early draft pick next year. I saw this in quite a few other players this year. Totally ready to play when called upon. It has to be about what the player does to get better.
Scouts are going to ask questions they already know the answers to. When they ask why did you transfer and you blame not playing on the coach, and you are still not in the line up, they will ask you what are YOU doing to make yourself a better player. Area scouts know exactly what's going on in their area. They talk to coaches on a regular basis. But they want to hear from the player.
I had an opportunity to go to a mid D1 program at the last regular weekend and sat with a players parent. He told me that his son did not get that many opportunities, same as year before. I asked what son did to improve his performance. He couldnt answer. I recently saw player in the portal.
I touched upon what I think the biggest reason is for player transfers, though there are many more reasons these days.
I agree with much that has been stated here.
But not about comparing baseball to football.
EDIT: Tommy White has now entered the transfer portal.
@T_Thomas posted:Gardner Webb has a JV or "Developmental" program, and many of those names in the portal are not on the Varsity roster...
Don't you have to be a rostered player to be eligible for the portal?
@PABaseball posted:Don't you have to be a rostered player to be eligible for the portal?
That's a good question, and I don't know the answer for certain.
But I can see that only 5 of the 36 Gardner Webb guys in the portal are listed on their current online roster. Sometime teams will disappear guys from their rosters when they enter the portal, and I don't know GW well enough to know if this is the case there or not. But the fact that 5 in the portal ARE listed on the current roster suggests that the other 31 are probably from the JV Team.
And, I know that in D2, the JV guys have exactly the same eligibility rules as the varsity players, and they are counted as rostered players for the EADA reporting.
@T_Thomas posted:That's a good question, and I don't know the answer for certain.
But I can see that only 5 of the 36 Gardner Webb guys in the portal are listed on their current online roster. Sometime teams will disappear guys from their rosters when they enter the portal, and I don't know GW well enough to know if this is the case there or not. But the fact that 5 in the portal ARE listed on the current roster suggests that the other 31 are probably from the JV Team.
And, I know that in D2, the JV guys have exactly the same eligibility rules as the varsity players, and they are counted as rostered players for the EADA reporting.
BTW
At the beginning of the year, they had 40 players (2022 limit)
In 2021, here is the comparison between website and EADA reporting
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:
- Participants
- Students who, as of the day of a varsity team's first scheduled contest (A) Are listed by the institution on the varsity team's roster; (B) Receive athletically related student aid; or (C) Practice with the varsity team and receive coaching from one or more varsity coaches. A student who satisfies one or more of these criteria is a participant, including a student on a team the institution designates or defines as junior varsity, freshman, or novice, or a student withheld from competition to preserve eligibility (i.e., a redshirt), or for academic, medical, or other reasons. This includes fifth-year team members who have already received a bachelor's degree.
BTW
At the beginning of the year, they had 40 players (2022 limit)
In 2021, here is the comparison between website and EADA reporting
| BRADY | |
| WILL | DORRELL |
| DREW | JANSSEN |
| JASON | L'ETOILE |
| BENINO | MENDELLA |
| GABE | PILLA |
| DIEGO | SANTIAGO |
| CARSON | YATES |
College baseball, you have saved parents and player many $$$ with this info. Parents today need a advisor to negotiate with the Coach. Five questions what, when, who, why and how?
my question does the Coach have a 6th Tool?
Bob
@Consultant posted:College baseball, you have saved parents and player many $$$ with this info. Parents today need a advisor to negotiate with the Coach. Five questions what, when, who, why and how?
my question does the Coach have a 6th Tool?
Bob
Bob,
I found out in 2016 that colleges were deleting players off their roster, fortunately I extracted twice start of season and post season.
My test case was Coastal Carolina, in season, they had 35, post they had 29. Fortunately, I knew 2 of the players. One played against my son in HS and they played in the same travel organization, the player was 1 year behind. The other player, played with my son at a JUCO in 2017, he had just come back from Tommy John. He was ghosted by Coastal Carolina. Now I'm not saying the didn't want to document his injury in the bio (wink, wink)..
Note: EADA is on a one year lag
Here is Coastal Carolina going back to 2017
2021
2020
2019
2018
2017
@adbono posted:The transfer portal has created full blown free agency among the most competitive of D1 programs. This wasn’t the intended purpose and I don’t like it. But you can’t blame the players and coaches for taking advantage of it to improve their situation. Especially when money is involved (NLI for big name players) and jobs are at stake for HCs at big name schools. How would you like to be HC at a mid-major and have a player in your program turn into a star tight before your eyes? How could you possibly keep him? The reality is that what is happening in D1 is exactly what MLB wanted to happen. The elite D1 teams are turning into pro level ball clubs. The players are older and more skilled. The best talent is becoming concentrated among the big name schools. The SEC and the ACC are full of minor league caliber teams. And this costs MLB nothing. MLB has gotten rid of many low level minor league franchises (saving themselves millions of dollars in the process) and replaced them with the best D1 teams - for free.
Question, how many of these minor league teams were profitable?
The A teams were selling at $4-7million. Very profitable
Bob
@Consultant posted:The A teams were selling at $4-7million. Very profitable
Bob
Were the minor league teams that were eliminated, profitable or was it a strategy decision from a MLB perspective, to Rightsize the organization as a whole.
MILB teams have been, mostly, privately owned. You have many wonderful parks in the MWL, for instance. They are locally owned by the City. The franchise is privately owned and operated.
The extent of MLB involvement is pretty much providing the players. Only the players are on the payroll of the MLB team.
As Bob very correctly summarized, the investors who own MILB teams do quite well, especially from a tax and appreciation perspective.
A definite strategy. Notice the new College Summer League teams in the former Minor League Cities.
Fortunately they use wood bats. The pro scouts are assigned several Leagues all info is on the Computer for access by each ML team.
The MLSB originated this system during our Area Code Games.
Bob
@Consultant posted:A definite strategy. Notice the new College Summer League teams in the former Minor League Cities.
Fortunately they use wood bats. The pro scouts are assigned several Leagues all info is on the Computer for access by each ML team.The MLSB originated this system during our Area Code Games.
Bob
Not happy to see the Minor Leagues shrink, but my son did get the benefit of playing for a Summer League team that replaced a Minor League team. It was probably his best baseball experience, consistently playing in front of 2500 and with top notch facilities.
Seth is with the Clinton Lumberkings and I am amazed at the 4-5000 crowds!
@PABaseball posted:I don't believe that to be true, also transferring is not indicative of character issues. In fact, transferring seems almost more common than not these days. The numbers that get tossed around here would imply that 50% or more of baseball players are not finishing the 4-6 year process at the school they committed to in HS. Being forced out is a theme in 2022.
Transferring to get more playing time is not controversial, it is actually encouraged. Moving onto a higher caliber program where the player in question will be surrounded by more talented players and established coaches should be looked at in a positive manner - they're seeking out the best to become a better player.
What is an MLB scout going to call a 20 year old who says I transferred for a bigger scholarship/ NIL money because it is less of a financial burden on my family? Selfish?
More importantly - it's all within the confines of the rules. NCAA allows this. Whether it should or shouldn't be is a different story but why would players not take advantage of it?
I've never been in a pro interview and maybe I'm wrong on this but at the very least I have a very hard time believing that a group of grown men are going to get together and determine that a 21 year old has makeup issues because he took advantage of the rules put into place by the sanctioning body of college athletics by transferring. "Yes he's 6'6 240 with a 70 fastball, a 70 slider and a 60 curve but he transferred from Kennesaw St to UNC - cross him off the list."
I don't buy it for a second and I don't believe players doing what is best for themselves/family should be looked down upon.
@pabaseball very good perspective.
Weren't similar complaints made in the 70s for MLB Free agency. Football Free agency, etc
Are we still promoting a world of "Indentured Servitude"?
I find it interesting, the discussion of free market principles are good until it impacts an industry that inspires nostalgia
KISS Method:
In America, the land of the brave home of the free, we have choices to move on.
Disruption is sometimes required to restructure an industry. There will be some good, bad and ugly in this change.
@T_Thomas posted:That's a good question, and I don't know the answer for certain.
But I can see that only 5 of the 36 Gardner Webb guys in the portal are listed on their current online roster. Sometime teams will disappear guys from their rosters when they enter the portal, and I don't know GW well enough to know if this is the case there or not. But the fact that 5 in the portal ARE listed on the current roster suggests that the other 31 are probably from the JV Team.
And, I know that in D2, the JV guys have exactly the same eligibility rules as the varsity players, and they are counted as rostered players for the EADA reporting.
Actually, let just talk about the Gardner Webb transfer portal issue.
TThomas is 110% correct. GWebb has something called a "development team" and they are using it to entice college enrollment. The coaches are misleading the young men on the chances of moving out of the program to the full team. Unfortunately I know of 3 of them on the list and 2 more who will be attending in the Fall.
Honestly they have been.....well....lied too. Blatantly. I'm sorry but there is no other way to put it.
The 2 going this year? Have absolutely no business being led to believe they can play college baseball and in fact did not get any meaningful field time even in high school. Even as seniors. I'm talking slow runners, small stature, can't throw the ball on a line for 100feet, with multiple defensive deficiencies, and 70mph fastball bat speed swings. If you can breathe and stroke a tuition check at a 45,000 a year private college in backwater NC, then you too can be on this development team. (and I enjoy backwater NC areas, but it most certainly isn't a 'must be at' college location)
Its a dang scam to produce paying tuition students.
The coach is from D2 and brought this type enrollment scheme with a new twist to GWebb. Along with excessive overrecruitment, juco transfers, and portal transfer in to the real team. Its a dumpster fire for a young player. Even the best young player.
There is no development, there is no plan, how does anyone think the D1 coaches and assistants even can name the players on the development team they are supposed to be 'developing'. I mean its crazy to even consider this trap.
Its just a prime example of college baseball and certain coaches being off the rails. How these guys blatantly lie to young men and sleep at night is beyond me.
NO TEAM ANYWHERE ANY LEVEL needs more than 35 players.
Belmont Abbey doesn't need 98 baseball players.
Erskine doesn't need 120 baseball players.
But what they ALL need is those 'extra' 70 or so paying students suckered into signing up. It keeps the baseball program funded and the doors open.
Knowledgeable parents need to begin exposing these scams, so others don't get lied to in the future.
@Showball$ posted:Actually, let just talk about the Gardner Webb transfer portal issue.
TThomas is 110% correct. GWebb has something called a "development team" and they are using it to entice college enrollment. The coaches are misleading the young men on the chances of moving out of the program to the full team. Unfortunately I know of 3 of them on the list and 2 more who will be attending in the Fall.
Honestly they have been.....well....lied too. Blatantly. I'm sorry but there is no other way to put it.
The 2 going this year? Have absolutely no business being led to believe they can play college baseball and in fact did not get any meaningful field time even in high school. Even as seniors. I'm talking slow runners, small stature, can't throw the ball on a line for 100feet, with multiple defensive deficiencies, and 70mph fastball bat speed swings. If you can breathe and stroke a tuition check at a 45,000 a year private college in backwater NC, then you too can be on this development team. (and I enjoy backwater NC areas, but it most certainly isn't a 'must be at' college location)
Its a dang scam to produce paying tuition students.
The coach is from D2 and brought this type enrollment scheme with a new twist to GWebb. Along with excessive overrecruitment, juco transfers, and portal transfer in to the real team. Its a dumpster fire for a young player. Even the best young player.
There is no development, there is no plan, how does anyone think the D1 coaches and assistants even can name the players on the development team they are supposed to be 'developing'. I mean its crazy to even consider this trap.
Its just a prime example of college baseball and certain coaches being off the rails. How these guys blatantly lie to young men and sleep at night is beyond me.
NO TEAM ANYWHERE ANY LEVEL needs more than 35 players.
Belmont Abbey doesn't need 98 baseball players.
Erskine doesn't need 120 baseball players.
But what they ALL need is those 'extra' 70 or so paying students suckered into signing up. It keeps the baseball program funded and the doors open.
Knowledgeable parents need to begin exposing these scams, so others don't get lied to in the future.
Agree, it is the ugly side of the business model.
IMHO, it is similar to having a travel baseball program with multiple teams at each age level,
Note, there may be situations where the B, C and D teams get the same development as the A (wink/wink) and there are opportunities for these players to get exposure, but this also normally goes off the rails.
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:IMHO, it is similar to having a travel baseball program with multiple teams at each age level,
Note, there may be situations where the B, C and D teams get the same development as the A (wink/wink) and there are opportunities for these players to get exposure, but this also normally goes off the rails.
The difference is the travel teams play a full schedule. Even if the teams aren't playing in the same tournaments as the A team they're still playing. The JV kids are not playing at all. At least they're not playing D1 level competition.
I don't have an issue with the multiple level travel orgs, it's a free market, those parents are welcome to leave whenever they like. The kids on the JV team at GW are being recruited and stop exploring other options for years at a time only to get there and find out they're 1 of 80. It's way worse
