Any chance anybody has an updated excel sheet for the transfer portal? Not looking to leech, probably going to bite the bullet and subscribe to D1 Baseball. Just want to see how accurate it is before I turn over any of my bank info.
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Very accurate
Does the transfer portal also show d2 etc?
No just D1
@Fmr coach now Dad posted:No just D1
But is there any good online source for D2 Transfer Portal info?
And does the D1Baseball portal section have historical information about where kids wind up after they enter the portal, or does it just list the names?
Someone uploaded an excel spreadsheet of the Transfer Portal a couple of weeks ago as it was at that time. Looked for it again but can not find it. Might be found via advanced search, it's just beyond my capabilities.
@baseballhs posted:Here.
What type of file is this? I can't open it on my PC.
Try this.
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@baseballhs posted:Try this.
Very interesting. Thanks for posting.
Yes - Thank you. Any ideas on where to find D2 info?
Thanks for converting it. Seems like a ton of grad transfers. When would most of them normally be committed for the fall?
There are a lot of grad transfers in there, the question is how many will either be given the opportunity to play somewhere else, and then what portion are willing to take on more school and often the associated debt. If you're a kid that attends a school that either doesn't allow graduate play (Ivy) or doesn't have graduate level classes, there's no harm in going in the portal. If someone shows interest, you can then gauge if it makes sense or not.
@9and7dad posted:There are a lot of grad transfers in there, the question is how many will either be given the opportunity to play somewhere else, and then what portion are willing to take on more school and often the associated debt. If you're a kid that attends a school that either doesn't allow graduate play (Ivy) or doesn't have graduate level classes, there's no harm in going in the portal. If someone shows interest, you can then gauge if it makes sense or not.
The grad transfers have no question about their status. I wouldn’t expect that many more of them to enter the portal. I would expect a big increase in undergrads entering however. Seems like a lot of names already and it’s still very early in the game. Many undergrads aren’t going to have a handle on their situation until they get back to campus. They can talk to their coaches on the phone all they want to in the interim but many aren’t gonna know where they stand until they can size it up for themselves. I think it will end up being a lot of names.
@baseballhs posted:Try this.
Thanks much @baseballhs! I am sad for some who are listed + happy for those with options.
@adbono posted:The grad transfers have no question about their status. I wouldn’t expect that many more of them to enter the portal. I would expect a big increase in undergrads entering however. Seems like a lot of names already and it’s still very early in the game. Many undergrads aren’t going to have a handle on their situation until they get back to campus. They can talk to their coaches on the phone all they want to in the interim but many aren’t gonna know where they stand until they can size it up for themselves. I think it will end up being a lot of names.
It seems like Freshmen are getting hit the hardest. I have heard of quite a few who have been dropped in the last week. 2020's are getting dropped as well and I know of a 2021 who was dropped yesterday. I wonder how many schools will just let everyone fight it out in the Fall and make the majority of their cuts afterwards? Hopefully there will be some additional roster relief.
@d-mac posted:It seems like Freshmen are getting hit the hardest. I have heard of quite a few who have been dropped in the last week. 2020's are getting dropped as well and I know of a 2021 who was dropped yesterday. I wonder how many schools will just let everyone fight it out in the Fall and make the majority of their cuts afterwards? Hopefully there will be some additional roster relief.
Only problem with that is the scholarship money. Still have to be under 11.7 for the non corona seniors. Freshmen move a lot to begin with, a lot of high schoolers reach when they're being recruited and take the biggest name over the best fit. Mix that in with a shaky fall, slow start in the spring. Next thing you know it's been 9 months and you've shown the staff nothing that helps your cause in a numbers game. Unfortunately the only roster relief would be the NCAA allowing the penalty free transfer rule to pass and that doesn't look too promising as of now.
Any chance of a updated list?
Updates since the previous version.
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@MidAtlanticDad posted:Updates since the previous version.
Appreciate the effort but file won’t open
Here is current excel version
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@FriarFred posted:Here is current excel version
Any program with a lot of kids trying to transfer out that aren’t graduates should raise a red flag - and there are a lot of them!
I feel like almost all schools have a roster crunch and I respect the coaches that are telling the kids that they know probably won't make the cut. At least it gives them options and lets them make an educated decision. I think it's scarier that coaches are bringing everyone to campus when they know they are sending a bunch to the slaughterhouse in December.
847 total with 97 who have transferred and over half of them are graduates.
It will be interesting who picks up Furman kids. They have a couple of very good pitchers and three fielders/hitters who should go quickly.
The players on this list from me sons team are players that were cut from the team a month ago. With on extra money in college baseball you can't keep extra bodies on the team. So NCAA allowing the rosters to go over the 35 was no help. If football doesn't go in the fall... alot more schools will be dropping baseball and other sports.
@baseballhs posted:I feel like almost all schools have a roster crunch and I respect the coaches that are telling the kids that they know probably won't make the cut. At least it gives them options and lets them make an educated decision. I think it's scarier that coaches are bringing everyone to campus when they know they are sending a bunch to the slaughterhouse in December.
I don’t see it that way. Many of the schools I see with 5 or more undergrads looking to leave have been notorious for over recruiting for many years. The number of names in the transfer portal just serves as proof.
Rookie question: Does a player have to put their name in the portal in order to transfer? It’s not working out prior to Corona, kid and coach talk, kid calls old TB coach and asks him to help find him a new hopefully better fit, which coach does. Does that name appear on this list? Just trying to get a handle on how many kids really are out there looking for a new home.
If a player has not signed a NLI he is free to transfer on his own terms and doesn’t need to enter the portal.
Very interesting to browse through that list. Thanks for posting. I am particularly surprised at the large number of Ivy and other HA grads (and I am aware Ivy doesn't allow grads a fifth year of play)... apparently that group is more willing to tack on another year of schooling in order to play again than has been previously discussed on this site.
Also interesting is that practically the whole rosters of BG and Furman are on the list. Hopefully, this is another data point that administrations will take note of when considering cutting baseball... that's a lot of potentially lost tuition revenue.
Adbono, I get your point about over-recruiting, largely from some of the P5's, but what do we make of schools like Maine who have a much harder time even recruiting good talent from their own back yard, let alone out of the region and have 11 players on the list with only two or three being grads? Chicago St. and Gardner-Webb also have high numbers. I'm guessing Chicago St. was possibly due to the earlier rumors.
@adbono posted:If a player has not signed a NLI he is free to transfer on his own terms and doesn’t need to enter the portal.
And i believe if they want to enter the portal they need an “ok” from the compliance dept of the original school to do so. So it’s not like you just “sign up”
@cabbagedad posted:Very interesting to browse through that list. Thanks for posting. I am particularly surprised at the large number of Ivy and other HA grads (and I am aware Ivy doesn't allow grads a fifth year of play)... apparently that group is more willing to tack on another year of schooling in order to play again than has been previously discussed on this site.
Also interesting is that practically the whole rosters of BG and Furman are on the list. Hopefully, this is another data point that administrations will take note of when considering cutting baseball... that's a lot of potentially lost tuition revenue.
Adbono, I get your point about over-recruiting, largely from some of the P5's, but what do we make of schools like Maine who have a much harder time even recruiting good talent from their own back yard, let alone out of the region and have 11 players on the list with only two or three being grads? Chicago St. and Gardner-Webb also have high numbers. I'm guessing Chicago St. was possibly due to the earlier rumors.
Hard to know what to make of it but you can add Louisiana, UNC Wilmington & St Louis to the list of mid-majors where lots of kids want out. The 3 programs I just mentioned have all been consistently good so to me it says they are bringing in too many kids each year. Maybe they are using sports to boost tuition revenue and will take as many as they can get. The surprising thing to me is the number of kids in the portal wanting to leave mid-majors. There are fewer P5 schools where kids want to leave than I expected and more mid-majors.
UNCW - Over-recruiting combined with favor recruiting from favored academies. And a coaching change for 2020 season. Not a good look for this program in regards to recruiting.
Gardner Webb - Massive massive huge overrecruiting and a coaching change for the 2020 season. Plus multiple JUCO commits coming in. And 6 seniors returning.
G-Webb even had been advertising some program called a D1 Development Team which appeared to be some offshoot club team that would provide training and intersquad play amongst those in the 'program'. Very weird.
@Showball$ posted:UNCW - Over-recruiting combined with favor recruiting from favored academies. And a coaching change for 2020 season. Not a good look for this program in regards to recruiting.
Gardner Webb - Massive massive huge overrecruiting and a coaching change for the 2020 season. Plus multiple JUCO commits coming in. And 6 seniors returning.
G-Webb even had been advertising some program called a D1 Development Team which appeared to be some offshoot club team that would provide training and intersquad play amongst those in the 'program'. Very weird.
Good insight... anything on Maine?
FriarFred's excel spreadsheet made it real for me. Incredible. I've been watching and listening (from an outsiders perspective) and I knew it was bad. I didn't know it was this bad.
Good luck to these young men...all 846 of them (as of May 20). I wish them well.
Over-recruiting is rampant and is one of the biggest problems in college baseball. I have been harping on it ever since I joined this board. The ability to view the transfer portal sure shines a light on it.
Maine? No, nothing beyond its cold there I hear.
This is going to turn into a huge mess. Between many programs overrecruited, seniors not leaving, and others shutting down. Its not going to help the quality of competition as some think. Its going to set up a free for all overcrowded clown show with little continuity and even more player discontent.
If the colleges don't open back up for on campus classes this Fall, their entire business model is shot for the foreseeable future. Nobody in their right mind is going to pay high tuition for online learning, or plan to attend until this mess is all sorted out. (Furman for example I heard is down 15% in enrollment. I'm sure others are similar)
Forget baseball changing, the entire landscape of college as we know it may be altered. Better get this all figured out and get back to living life again.
Here is an example of where headed to:
South Carolina (USC) delay campus opening til Aug 30, Eliminate Fall break, No return to Campus after Thanksgiving, Online classes and final exams thru Dec 15 semester end. Evaluate return in January as needed.
Based on the spreadsheet, looks like Chicago State players are jumping ship before June 22.
There is always player turnover when a new coach gets brought in - especially when the program has a losing culture. The problem is often the recruiting and it makes sense that the players contributing to the culture are asked to move on. Not the fault of anybody, just the circumstances.
@Showball$ posted:UNCW - Over-recruiting combined with favor recruiting from favored academies. And a coaching change for 2020 season. Not a good look for this program in regards to recruiting.
Gardner Webb - Massive massive huge overrecruiting and a coaching change for the 2020 season. Plus multiple JUCO commits coming in. And 6 seniors returning.
G-Webb even had been advertising some program called a D1 Development Team which appeared to be some offshoot club team that would provide training and intersquad play amongst those in the 'program'. Very weird.
The bolded is a problem that nobody really talks about too much. I see kid after kid pushed higher and higher up the rankings because of the program he plays for or because of how many showcase events he does. Then he gets to his school and transfers after a year or two and there's always an excuse attached.
Interesting. Any insight on Richmond?
I know D3's don't go thru the portal but wanted to give a shout out to Duke for picking up Rich Brereton (graduate) out of Emory. Kid was a stud 2 way player for Emory and helped his summer team win the cape league championships last year with a gutsy extra-inning performance on the mound. Not sure how much time he will get next spring but he's the second RHP from our HS on Duke. Not bad for a school in CT. Our HS ace last year, Henry Williams, was to be a part of the starting rotation as a freshman but got hurt in his first outing. I am a Duke hater in everything but baseball. I am pretty sure its jealousy.
@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:I know D3's don't go thru the portal but wanted to give a shout out to Duke for picking up Rich Brereton (graduate) out of Emory. Kid was a stud 2 way player for Emory and helped his summer team win the cape league championships last year with a gutsy extra-inning performance on the mound. Not sure how much time he will get next spring but he's the second RHP from our HS on Duke. Not bad for a school in CT. Our HS ace last year, Henry Williams, was to be a part of the starting rotation as a freshman but got hurt in his first outing. I am a Duke hater in everything but baseball. I am pretty sure its jealousy.
D3 certainly does go through the portal. I’m assuming the list non-coaches are subscribing to through D1baseball is different than the actual portal.
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@PitchingFan posted:847 total with 97 who have transferred and over half of them are graduates.
It will be interesting who picks up Furman kids. They have a couple of very good pitchers and three fielders/hitters who should go quickly.
Over 1500 total with 485 who are grad transfers. 870 D1 550 D2 and 99 D3
@LousyLefty posted:Rookie question: Does a player have to put their name in the portal in order to transfer? It’s not working out prior to Corona, kid and coach talk, kid calls old TB coach and asks him to help find him a new hopefully better fit, which coach does. Does that name appear on this list? Just trying to get a handle on how many kids really are out there looking for a new home.
The school puts the kid on the portal after kid submits the proper paperwork requesting to enter the portal.
@19coach posted:D3 certainly does go through the portal. I’m assuming the list non-coaches are subscribing to through D1baseball is different than the actual portal.
I did not know. I can only see D1baseball.com listing. Thank you!
Sure seems to be a whole lot of doom and gloom happening now.....Did anyone predict this carnage?
@DesertDuck posted:Sure seems to be a whole lot of doom and gloom happening now.....Did anyone predict this carnage?
I do remember someone saying that the sky wasn't falling about 95,000 covid related deaths ago.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:I do remember someone saying that the sky wasn't falling about 95,000 covid related deaths ago.
I remember a bunch of “why so much negativity?!? I view the world as glass half full. My kid will just outwork everybody “
Sometimes the numbers preclude all of that, which is what is evolving just as many predicted it would.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:I do remember someone saying that the sky wasn't falling about 95,000 covid related deaths ago.
Yeah.....cuz the 95k # is really accurate.
echoing wildcats post, any insight on Richmond? big numbers in portal.
The new update came out today ?????
@DesertDuck posted:Sure seems to be a whole lot of doom and gloom happening now.....Did anyone predict this carnage?
@adbono posted:I remember a bunch of “why so much negativity?!? I view the world as glass half full. My kid will just outwork everybody “
Sometimes the numbers preclude all of that, which is what is evolving just as many predicted it would.
Adbono you were on it from the beginning.
All those that thought this was just usual roster management: Hold on because the next shoe hasn't dropped yet. After the draft on June 8 and undrafted signings before July1 (deadline for letting players know in writing that their scholy wont be renewed) it likely gets a lot uglier than it already is. If the NCAA doesn't make changes in baseball ASAP, and there has been no indication that they will, P5 schools are going to be forced to break their own rules. Too many scholarships promised, too many returning players, too many incoming freshman with signed NLIs, it will get worse.
@GloFisher posted:echoing wildcats post, any insight on Richmond? big numbers in portal.
Bump for wildcats and glofisher. One transfer is going JUCO, and another to a strong D3 program (Trinity). Two are graduate transfers. That leaves 3 others that entered the portal for their own reasons. In looking at this, I don't think the sky is falling with 3 transfers for a very expensive private D1 school. With the current scholarship situation being pretty squirrely with Covid-19, there may have been some challenges making everybody happy.
I live in Richmond (they recruited son 10 years ago) and I've not heard anything which is why I'm curious. The 2020 team did not start off strong, but 2019 team had a 13-8 conference record and 2018 had a 15-9 conference record. Certainly not terrible.
@fenwaysouth posted:Bump for wildcats and glofisher. One transfer is going JUCO, and another to a strong D3 program (Trinity). Two are graduate transfers. That leaves 3 others that entered the portal for their own reasons. In looking at this, I don't think the sky is falling with 3 transfers for a very expensive private D1 school. With the current scholarship situation being pretty squirrely with Covid-19, there may have been some challenges making everybody happy.
I live in Richmond (they recruited son 10 years ago) and I've not heard anything which is why I'm curious. The 2020 team did not start off strong, but 2019 team had a 13-8 conference record and 2018 had a 15-9 conference record. Certainly not terrible.
Here are some insights for Richmond:
2020 Player Distribution by State
2020 Player Distribution by Position
2020 Team Roster Insights
2019 MLB Draft
Team Performance 2016 - 2020
2019 EADA Report
2019 -EADA - Expense by Sport
Richmond 10 yr Baseball Budget
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CollegeBaseballInsights,
Good data points. You forgot the most important one....it is $69,750 for a full time on campus student 2019-20. 
@fenwaysouth posted:Bump for wildcats and glofisher. One transfer is going JUCO, and another to a strong D3 program (Trinity). Two are graduate transfers. That leaves 3 others that entered the portal for their own reasons. In looking at this, I don't think the sky is falling with 3 transfers for a very expensive private D1 school. With the current scholarship situation being pretty squirrely with Covid-19, there may have been some challenges making everybody happy.
I live in Richmond (they recruited son 10 years ago) and I've not heard anything which is why I'm curious. The 2020 team did not start off strong, but 2019 team had a 13-8 conference record and 2018 had a 15-9 conference record. Certainly not terrible.
They have their own field and don't play on the Flying Squirrels field, correct?
I can't remember if Cabbage is a Giants fan or not. If he is, I would think that Richmond might be an attractive place to retire.
(sorry for the thread drift)
Can yesterdays update be posted ?? I heard the numbers went even higher .
@c2019 posted:Can yesterdays update be posted ?? I heard the numbers went even higher .
The numbers are going up daily. That’s why we should all stay at home in order to flatten the curve.
Here it is.
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I mean transfer portal updated
@JCG posted:They have their own field and don't play on the Flying Squirrels field, correct?
I can't remember if Cabbage is a Giants fan or not. If he is, I would think that Richmond might be an attractive place to retire.(sorry for the thread drift)
JCG - Correct. Univ of Richmond just got a brand new artificial all-weather baseball field a couple years ago. They were including that and many facility and stadium upgrades in their recruiting pitch 10 years ago. They finally got around to ONE of those recruiting pitch items.
Flying Squirrels share the Diamond with Virginia Commonwealth Univ (A-10 conference). I'm a former New Englander and I've lived in Richmond for 30+ years and it is a great place to live, raise a family and retire. I believe keewart and FoxDad outlined many reasons to live in Richmond in the previous "Living in NC, SC, and GA" thread. BTW...I'm hoping to see Ripken Fan's son makes a quick stop in AA Richmond before getting "the big call up".
@fenwaysouth posted:CollegeBaseballInsights,
Good data points. You forgot the most important one....it is $69,750 for a full time on campus student 2019-20.
Yep,
IPEDS data release is on a ~12 month lag, but CBI links back to College Navigator.
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenav...p;id=233374#expenses
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@baseballhs posted:Here it is.
Thanks !
Ive notice a lot freshman are not on this list .. unless they were not on LOI like someone posted before . And they wouldn’t need permission
@c2019 posted:I mean transfer portal updated
I know that! Just giving you a little sarcasm with your morning coffee
I believe this is only the second year (and the first year may have started late) of the transfer portal. What would be really telling is what were the numbers in the prior year? Are this year's numbers much different? I'm guessing the portal now sheds light on something that occurs EVERY years regardless of a pandemic. Very similar phenomenon to flu death counts.
Of course the GRADUATE transfer requests will be many, many more due to the extra year. Most of these guys are just "fishing".
@c2019 posted:Can yesterdays update be posted ?? I heard the numbers went even higher .
The big numbers were anticipated once the D1 council granted an extra year of eligibility to all spring sports athletes. That’s why the one time transfer rule hasn’t been approved. Can you imagine what the portal would look like if one time transfers were in there too?!?!?
I'm still hoping someone can post up the D2 & D3 information.
That would give us a truer picture of the overall landscape.
Thanks to all you guys who are posting.
Is there a d2 portal somewhere? I'd pay for it if someone could tell me where go find it...
@edcoach posted:Is there a d2 portal somewhere? I'd pay for it if someone could tell me where go find it...
I have never heard of one
Here is the "users guide" for the transfer portal. I have not seen one published but all D1 and D2 transfers now go thru the portal. I believe D2 started this last year upon a release from the school the student asked to be added to the portal. http://ncaa.s3.amazonaws.com/f...Portal_UserGuide.pdf
@edcoach posted:Is there a d2 portal somewhere? I'd pay for it if someone could tell me where go find it...
@adbono posted:I have never heard of one
The way I understand it, all sports and divisions are in the same portal.
The version that D1Baseball.com makes available is just filtered for only the Division 1 baseball athletes.
Latest Transfer Portal info. Right at 900 kids now
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Wow! Quite an eye opener. A bit surprised at Washington, and, to a lesser extent Purdue, having the transfers they do. Not surprised at programs like Omaha, KY, and Miss. State. Notre Dame has more movement than I expected. know a kid who is transferring there.
Just reinforces to me that if you go to a school, make sure you love the school, not just the baseball program. The amount of movement I have seen from my son's baseball buddies in the first two years is crazy...and IMO, not right.
@57special posted:Wow! Quite an eye opener. A bit surprised at Washington, and, to a lesser extent Purdue, having the transfers they do. Not surprised at programs like Omaha, KY, and Miss. State. Notre Dame has more movement than I expected. know a kid who is transferring there.
Just reinforces to me that if you go to a school, make sure you love the school, not just the baseball program. The amount of movement I have seen from my son's baseball buddies in the first two years is crazy...and IMO, not right.
IMO all the movement is due to a combination of things: 1) many kids (and parents) don’t get a good read on the situation before they commit; 2) blatant over-recruiting by some programs; 3) kids over-reaching for big name programs when they aren’t really good enough to play there; 4) the big ego infatuation with playing D1 baseball; 5) kids & parents being misled about the appropriate level of play for their abilities; 6) kids & parents not doing their homework to find info that’s out there; 7) the influence of social media in the decision making process. All these factors (and others) result in bad decisions on the first go around requiring a corrective move within a year of the first one.
How much do you think Corona/additional eligibility is impacting these numbers? Since my player is a 2022 this is just now something we are looking at and don't really have a historical reference. Normally I would track how many transfers are entering the portal from any school on our interest list, but not sure this year shouldn't be counted as an anomaly.
@19coach posted:D3 certainly does go through the portal. I’m assuming the list non-coaches are subscribing to through D1baseball is different than the actual portal.
I'm pretty sure that D2 and D3 schools have the choice of using the transfer portal or staying with the older permission to contact process. D2 uses it heavily, but I'm not sure about D3. The Eligibility Center instructs student athletes to contact their current school's compliance office to find out which one they use. Also, D3 student athletes can transfer to another D3 school using the self-release form, so the kids using that process would never be on the portal.
I have also seen some movement in son's friends because when they committed the teams were not as good as they are now. New coaches come in and up the level of recruiting and playing to the point that the kids that were coming are no longer suited for those teams. I also know kids that are planning on leaving schools that are waiting to see what happens in summer ball. They don't want to give up their summer slots and many summer leagues only bring in kids from certain levels of ball or schools so kids are waiting until after summer to officially make their statements on transfers, D1 to juco.
I'm assuming that 900 number will go up drastically after the draft. One guy not getting drafted may not seem like a big deal but the potential draft guys are the better players getting more money. If a 50% guy comes back to school, two 25 guys have to go.
Freshmen may be the future of the program, but you don't get rid of studs to make room for projects.
Here is a local story about a couple kids that have been impacted by the cancellation of the season, reduced MLB draft and another year of eligibility. Real world example of what has been discussed here. https://www.dallasnews.com/hig...g-extra-eligibility/
@FriarFred posted:Here is a local story about a couple kids that have been impacted by the cancellation of the season, reduced MLB draft and another year of eligibility. Real world example of what has been discussed here. https://www.dallasnews.com/hig...g-extra-eligibility/
Typical media: "Division I signees in baseball and other spring sports are being told their scholarship can’t be honored."
I don't think this is possible. Sure, they told players there would be no playing time and that will cause them to find a new home but they can't pull money after a NLI's been signed.
Hogeboom left due to being told no playing time. And he gave up 50%? The article says New Mexico took Hill's scholarship away; there HAS to be more to the story as I don't think this is possible. Either he had no scholarship (as in the case of the softball player mentioned in the article) or he left due to the college suggesting he leave as in Hogeboom's case.
Make me wonder if the players should have just showed up on campus and called the coach's bluff. Eat that money. Perhaps the coach would be pissed and never give you an opportunity but at least you ate up 1/2 of a scholarship he wanted to use elsewhere. You can always leave after the fall and head to JUCO if calling his bluff didn't work. It really depends on how confident you are in your own ability.
@FriarFred posted:Here is a local story about a couple kids that have been impacted by the cancellation of the season, reduced MLB draft and another year of eligibility. Real world example of what has been discussed here. https://www.dallasnews.com/hig...g-extra-eligibility/
No surprise that both 4 year schools mentioned in the article (New Mexico & Houston) have been 2 of the most notorious over-recruiters in this region in the past few years. However in this case both schools did these 2 kids a favor by giving them early notice. On the other hand, while both are going to established and proven JuCo programs, those two schools are also known for cattle calls in the fall. There were over 60 players on the 2019 fall roster at Cisco. When D1 recruits bounce down to JuCo that usually has a negative impact on a kid that was recruited to that Juco. Four year schools that over-recruit usually do that habitually every year. Juco programs that rely on D1 bounce downs also usually have a history of doing that. Just part of the homework that players & parents need to be doing in order to know what they are really getting into. If more people would view the recruiting and commitment process as RISK MANAGEMENT there would be more good decisions being made.
@ABSORBER posted:Typical media: "Division I signees in baseball and other spring sports are being told their scholarship can’t be honored."
I don't think this is possible. Sure, they told players there would be no playing time and that will cause them to find a new home but they can't pull money after a NLI's been signed.
Hogeboom left due to being told no playing time. And he gave up 50%? The article says New Mexico took Hill's scholarship away; there HAS to be more to the story as I don't think this is possible. Either he had no scholarship (as in the case of the softball player mentioned in the article) or he left due to the college suggesting he leave as in Hogeboom's case.
Make me wonder if the players should have just showed up on campus and called the coach's bluff. Eat that money. Perhaps the coach would be pissed and never give you an opportunity but at least you ate up 1/2 of a scholarship he wanted to use elsewhere. You can always leave after the fall and head to JUCO if calling his bluff didn't work. It really depends on how confident you are in your own ability.
There is so much misinformation in this post I don’t even know where to begin. But here are some responses:
Para 2: Oh, it’s possible and it happens all the time. Outside of P5 schools NLIs are one year agreements. If the school wants out they will find a way - legally or not.
Para 3: see comments above about Para 2
Para 4: Show up and call the coach’s bluff? Are you kidding me?!? Who in their right might is going to report as an incoming freshman to a school that has already informed you that you aren’t wanted. And what parent in their right mind what support that decision?!? Furthermore, don’t be naive enough to think that moving from 4 yr to JuCo after the fall semester is going to be easy in terms of finding the right opportunity. Rosters are going to be overcrowded all over the place. Confidence in your own ability has very little to do with it. It’s more about a realistic assessment of where you can actually play. The level of competition is different in the Ivy League than it is at Mountain West & American Athletic Conference. MW & AAC have a lot more really good players and it’s tougher to make a roster (and get on the field) from a baseball talent perspective. It’s tougher for a good player to bet admitted to an Ivy League school based on academic standards.
I know a player who was on Scholarship at a perennial P5 powerhouse. He was told in the late fall that he should find someplace else. Coaches didn't want him - talented, but poor attitude and work ethic. Sure, he could have stayed based on P5s guarantee for 4 years, but the conversation isn't usually that hard.
"Look, we don't see you fitting into our plans. You need a fresh start somewhere else. You can stay here and chew up some scholarship money, burn through your parents income, and get C's, but you won't dress out for games or travel, is that really best for you, or is it best to move forward."
The same thing happens at "mid majors" all the time. The 900 (and counting) D1 players in the portal are testament to that.
I told my son before he went to play college ball and before he signed his NLI, as competitive and unfair as this process sometimes seems to you, remember the coaches earn their living this way. Things may not go your way: it is not personal, it is business.
@adbono posted:There is so much misinformation in this post I don’t even know where to begin. But here are some responses:
Para 2: Oh, it’s possible and it happens all the time. Outside of P5 schools NLIs are one year agreements. If the school wants out they will find a way - legally or not.
Para 3: see comments above about Para 2
Para 4: Show up and call the coach’s bluff? Are you kidding me?!? Who in their right might is going to report as an incoming freshman to a school that has already informed you that you aren’t wanted. And what parent in their right mind what support that decision?!? Furthermore, don’t be naive enough to think that moving from 4 yr to JuCo after the fall semester is going to be easy in terms of finding the right opportunity. Rosters are going to be overcrowded all over the place. Confidence in your own ability has very little to do with it. It’s more about a realistic assessment of where you can actually play. The level of competition is different in the Ivy League than it is at Mountain West & American Athletic Conference. MW & AAC have a lot more really good players and it’s tougher to make a roster (and get on the field) from a baseball talent perspective. It’s tougher for a good player to bet admitted to an Ivy League school based on academic standards.
spot on. simple supply and demand.
It will be very interesting to see the actual roster turnover in 2021.
Outgoing
- Overall vs Freshman
- Transfer out
- Graduated
- MLB Signed
Incoming
-Overall
- Transfer in
I know that that is how it works, because I've read it here. Obviously a player couldn't continue under those circumstances. But, that newspaper article implied that the players were told "their scholarship money had to be used for returning students." That simply was not true. If newspaper articles like this were more honest about what really goes on, said "the university was required to honor the NLI scholarship, so they encouraged the player to voluntarily withdraw," perhaps it wouldn't happen so much.
@adbono posted:There is so much misinformation in this post I don’t even know where to begin. But here are some responses:
Para 2: Oh, it’s possible and it happens all the time. Outside of P5 schools NLIs are one year agreements. If the school wants out they will find a way - legally or not.
Para 3: see comments above about Para 2
Para 4: Show up and call the coach’s bluff? Are you kidding me?!? Who in their right might is going to report as an incoming freshman to a school that has already informed you that you aren’t wanted. And what parent in their right mind what support that decision?!? Furthermore, don’t be naive enough to think that moving from 4 yr to JuCo after the fall semester is going to be easy in terms of finding the right opportunity. Rosters are going to be overcrowded all over the place. Confidence in your own ability has very little to do with it. It’s more about a realistic assessment of where you can actually play. The level of competition is different in the Ivy League than it is at Mountain West & American Athletic Conference. MW & AAC have a lot more really good players and it’s tougher to make a roster (and get on the field) from a baseball talent perspective. It’s tougher for a good player to bet admitted to an Ivy League school based on academic standards.
Misinformation? Any I presume you are an expert? Do you even know what an NLI is? Have YOU ever signed one? They exist for a reason.
Sure, be that scared kid and accept a scholarship to get an education at 50% off and bail just to go play baseball at a community college. Because that's what JUCO is, COMMUNITY COLLEGE. Nothing wrong with that if money is tight; it's a great way to save. So I suppose if your goal is to attend any school just to play baseball a few more years, heck, maybe even get drafted after two years of community college and one year at a 4-year school just to wash up after two years, have at it!
And if you don't think you are good enough to make a JUCO roster after transferring after the fall? Then you may as well stay at the school where you signed your NLI. Because baseball is NOT in your future. No scholarship after year one? That's something you should have factored into your decision when you accepted the offer. Go to school for an education, not baseball. Use baseball to get your education. If baseball works out in the end, good for you. Chances are it doesn't.
@ABSORBER posted:Misinformation? Any I presume you are an expert? Do you even know what an NLI is? Have YOU ever signed one? They exist for a reason.
Sure, be that scared kid and accept a scholarship to get an education at 50% off and bail just to go play baseball at a community college. Because that's what JUCO is, COMMUNITY COLLEGE. Nothing wrong with that if money is tight; it's a great way to save. So I suppose if your goal is to attend any school just to play baseball a few more years, heck, maybe even get drafted after two years of community college and one year at a 4-year school just to wash up after two years, have at it!
And if you don't think you are good enough to make a JUCO roster after transferring after the fall? Then you may as well stay at the school where you signed your NLI. Because baseball is NOT in your future. No scholarship after year one? That's something you should have factored into your decision when you accepted the offer. Go to school for an education, not baseball. Use baseball to get your education. If baseball works out in the end, good for you. Chances are it doesn't.
I’m not going to give you my resume. But my bio should give you a clue that I have been thru all of this as a player, parent, coach, and advisor. So that’s multiple occasions from all perspectives. I don’t know that many people are experts but I’m certainly one of the more experienced people on this board. One thing that you do have right is that you go to school for an education and baseball is a bonus.
@anotherparent posted:I know that that is how it works, because I've read it here. Obviously a player couldn't continue under those circumstances. But, that newspaper article implied that the players were told "their scholarship money had to be used for returning students." That simply was not true. If newspaper articles like this were more honest about what really goes on, said "the university was required to honor the NLI scholarship, so they encouraged the player to voluntarily withdraw," perhaps it wouldn't happen so much.
The author of that article, Greg Riddle, is not one of the better sports writers in DFW. So not surprising that he may have taken what was said to him at face value. It also wouldn’t surprise me one bit if either of the schools told those kids exactly what was written.
@adbono posted:I’m not going to give you my resume. But my bio should give you a clue that I have been thru all of this as a player, parent, coach, and advisor. So that’s multiple occasions from all perspectives. I don’t know that many people are experts but I’m certainly one of the more experienced people on this board. One thing that you do have right is that you go to school for an education and baseball is a bonus.
My point is YOU are the one who is spreading misinformation. You are not the only person on this site that does this. I can't stand people who pretend they know things and really don't.
So when I say a student-athlete who has signed an NLI at 50% scholarship and decides to show up on campus he WILL receive his scholarship for one year. That's certainly not misinformation.
@ABSORBER posted:My point is YOU are the one who is spreading misinformation. You are not the only person on this site that does this. I can't stand people who pretend they know things and really don't.
So when I say a student-athlete who has signed an NLI at 50% scholarship and decides to show up on campus he WILL receive his scholarship for one year. That's certainly not misinformation.
I probably should have not used the word misinformation. In hindsight, I should have said you are offering bad advice.
@adbono posted:I probably should have not used the word misinformation. In hindsight, I should have said you are offering bad advice.
I wasn't providing anyone with advice; I was merely suggesting a scenario where kids like this can stick it to college coaches by showing up if that's the school they really wanted to attend. I doubt UH fits the bill.
@ABSORBER posted:I wasn't providing anyone with advice; I was merely suggesting a scenario where kids like this can stick it to college coaches by showing up if that's the school they really wanted to attend. I doubt UH fits the bill.
The scenario you suggested is only a good idea if you are done playing baseball.
None of this matters. Disappearing scholarships, returning and transferring players, ability to compete for a roster spot,.....none of it matters. So quit arguing over it and just use the portal to figure out which colleges should be avoided at all costs. That's the only real benefit to the data knowledge.
And even that data knowledge is useless. 900 on the portal will swell by late summer. There is not enough spots anywhere because its most all over recruited and over promised to begin with. The over recruiting and buddy ball atmosphere is all coming to a head. It was coming anyway shortly, the current virus just accelerated the timeframe forward a few years.
You aren't guaranteed to play much at a Juco without connections no matter the talent you have. D1 dropdowns, pro prospects, local favorited and connected, etc.
D2 is a roster cesspool. Forget that. You're going to have 24 and 25 year old college year six seniors and juco transfers clogging up all playing time for everyone (40+ roster spots deep style clogged up) in the program.
D3 may be possible for a top notch academic player to get in 30 games a season. IF D3 doesn't cancel the program and make it a club team.
D1 is going to be littered with disgruntled redshirt freshmen and sophs and prior redshirts who thought they had served their time. Only to find out 6 seniors starters return and are handed the position again.
Want to guarantee you are going to see significant field time as a college baseball player? Better get out the checkbook and donate some big $, better call in some connected favors, better be connected to a mover and shaker, better be a legacy son of a major leaguer, etc.
This isn't football or basketball where you can physically earn your spot by banging your competition in the ground one on one. This is subjective baseball where not much individual physical competition matters.
It really shouldn't be this way. And I hate it for the current players, incoming players, and even the returning seniors. But what we all will witness and our favorite player will experience in the coming months is the result of the bullsh*t baseball system that money has built while the academies and showcases and travel ball and college recruiters have sold the soul of the game itself out over the last 6 years.
@Showball$ posted:None of this matters. Disappearing scholarships, returning and transferring players, ability to compete for a roster spot,.....none of it matters. So quit arguing over it and just use the portal to figure out which colleges should be avoided at all costs. That's the only real benefit to the data knowledge.
And even that data knowledge is useless. 900 on the portal will swell by late summer. There is not enough spots anywhere because its most all over recruited and over promised to begin with. The over recruiting and buddy ball atmosphere is all coming to a head. It was coming anyway shortly, the current virus just accelerated the timeframe forward a few years.
You aren't guaranteed to play much at a Juco without connections no matter the talent you have. D1 dropdowns, pro prospects, local favorited and connected, etc.
D2 is a roster cesspool. Forget that. You're going to have 24 and 25 year old college year six seniors and juco transfers clogging up all playing time for everyone (40+ roster spots deep style clogged up) in the program.
D3 may be possible for a top notch academic player to get in 30 games a season. IF D3 doesn't cancel the program and make it a club team.
D1 is going to be littered with disgruntled redshirt freshmen and sophs and prior redshirts who thought they had served their time. Only to find out 6 seniors starters return and are handed the position again.
Want to guarantee you are going to see significant field time as a college baseball player? Better get out the checkbook and donate some big $, better call in some connected favors, better be connected to a mover and shaker, better be a legacy son of a major leaguer, etc.
This isn't football or basketball where you can physically earn your spot by banging your competition in the ground one on one. This is subjective baseball where not much individual physical competition matters.
It really shouldn't be this way. And I hate it for the current players, incoming players, and even the returning seniors. But what we all will witness and our favorite player will experience in the coming months is the result of the bullsh*t baseball system that money has built while the academies and showcases and travel ball and college recruiters have sold the soul of the game itself out over the last 6 years.
Tell us how you really feel.
IMHO, you've summed it up pretty nicely.
I'm going to have to save this comment.
I think I can turn this into 1 or 2 analytics.
I just need to think of a name for this report.
Good stuff.
That article was a mess and because it was so inaccurate I can't consider it entirely truthful. A few thoughts...
The first is that one of the players had a 63% scholarship and only one other D1 offer. For the price of him they can get nearly 3 guys, but what's more alarming is that there was only one other offer. Had to be a reason for this.
The second is that returning seniors don't count against the 11.7. So they didn't lose their scholarships, they were just less likely to play and chose to move on which was probably the wise move. But seniors coming back didn't cause this. You can ride the bench for a year as a freshman, it happens, especially now given the circumstances.
The third is that going to the media is never a good idea. I don't know what these kids wanted to get out of this, especially since they are both headed to Jucos. It's not like they needed the publicity to get new offers. But going to the media with a tough story is going to do nothing for either of those kids.
As ABSORBER mentioned earlier you can try to call the coaches bluff. They do have to honor the scholarship and they will find somebody else to cut if you let them know that moving on is not an option. If you say no, they still have a scholarship issue.
I've seen it happen with a player at a P5 school, he was on a big scholarship and he was advised to transfer for playing time after a shaky freshman year. He told the coach thank you, but the school is too cheap for me to pass up, I'll stay and try to improve. Another player was cut two days later, he stayed, ended up being a weekend starter and drafted. If it is truly a scholarship issue, call the bluff and force their hand. If it is a talent issue, it would be wise to move on assuming there were other opportunities. If either of the kids mentioned in the article had said thanks I'll bet on myself, there would have been no article to write until at least next year.
Stay and call the coaches bluff will result in career suicide 9 times more often than it ever works out. How many of you guys suggesting this ever played high level D1 baseball? You don’t think that decision won’t follow a player to his next stop? You don’t think coaches talk? If you play that card you better be prepared for what you get.
You guys are totally underestimating how much politics play into roster and playing time decisions.
@adbono posted:Stay and call the coaches bluff will result in career suicide 9 times more often than it ever works out. How many of you guys suggesting this ever played high level D1 baseball? You don’t think that decision won’t follow a player to his next stop? You don’t think coaches talk? If you play that card you better be prepared for what you get.
I didn't have to play high level D1 baseball to know that if you sign a legally binding contract with a university, they're required to honor it.
Like I said, it really has to be a scholarship cap space issue and not a talent issue. I don't want to comment on the talent level of the high schoolers mentioned in the article, but given their scholarships are renewed annually I likely would have moved on as well. That being said if they said we're staying - there isn't anything a coach could do about it without risking his job.
If it is a scholarship cap issue you will remain on the team. If it is a talent issue you better be prepared to be a regular student/charting pitches for the foreseeable future. I understand the politics of baseball and it's not a move I would recommend in 95% of cases. But I know plenty of kids who, if were cut, would likely become a regular student on baseball money, join a frat, and call it a day. It is unfolding with a former teammate as we speak.
@PABaseball posted:I didn't have to play high level D1 baseball to know that if you sign a legally binding contract with a university, they're required to honor it.
Like I said, it really has to be a scholarship cap space issue and not a talent issue. I don't want to comment on the talent level of the high schoolers mentioned in the article, but given their scholarships are renewed annually I likely would have moved on as well. That being said if they said we're staying - there isn't anything a coach could do about it without risking his job.
If it is a scholarship cap issue you will remain on the team. If it is a talent issue you better be prepared to be a regular student/charting pitches for the foreseeable future. I understand the politics of baseball and it's not a move I would recommend in 95% of cases. But I know plenty of kids who, if were cut, would likely become a regular student on baseball money, join a frat, and call it a day. It is unfolding with a former teammate as we speak.
Just like in any business arrangement, if the party in control doesn’t want to do business with the other party it doesn’t take very long for the wording in the contract not to matter. Like I said, if you play that card you better be prepared for your playing days to be over. Especially now, as coaches are going to have more options at every position than they ever have. It will be next man up, you best believe that.
That move is not a one size fits all, that move takes some you know what. If you're going to pull that move you better be prepared to eat your words and chart pitches like a sabermetrics guru for the rest of your time at said school.
@PABaseball posted:That move is not a one size fits all, that move takes some you know what. If you're going to pull that move you better be prepared to eat your words and chart pitches like a sabermetrics guru for the rest of your time at said school.
That’s my point exactly because that’s what will happen
@FriarFred posted:Here is a local story about a couple kids that have been impacted by the cancellation of the season, reduced MLB draft and another year of eligibility. Real world example of what has been discussed here. https://www.dallasnews.com/hig...g-extra-eligibility/
What I suspect is that neither of the players mentioned in this article were at the top of the 2020 recruiting class for the schools that recruited them. Or seniors were returning and there was no need at their positions. Or both. Hogeboom played in a good 4A program and is the son of a former NFL QB. He was decently ranked but not top 10 in Texas. As a freshman UofH was probably a reach for him. Hill played in a travel ball org that is designed to promote inner city and underprivileged kids. Hill would meet that criteria. I coached in that org for years and I know firsthand that org overpromotes and oversells it’s players. As a freshman New Mexico was a reach for Hill also. It appears that UH & UNM looked at their rosters and determined that these kids couldn’t help them. They have seniors coming back at their positions AND they want to give $ to those returning seniors. It doesn’t matter that the seniors don’t count against the 11.7 scholarships. The money has to come from somewhere. So they took it from some incoming freshmen. Very few schools have alumni pony up to pay for returning seniors like TCU did. I suspect the kids were told that they were being released from their NLI and were free to pursue other options. This is exactly what I said was going to happen weeks ago and there will be more of it. If you want to play baseball a signed NLI isn’t going to give you an opportunity to play if the school you signed with doesn’t want you anymore. Incoming 2020 freshmen and 2020 JuCo transfers are very vulnerable. I’m saying it’s right but I’m saying it’s reality.
NOT saying it’s right
Great discussion going on here. Everybody has excellent points and those points are coming from different perspectives. College baseball has become an absolute roster and scholarship train wreck. I really feel bad for those current players caught up in this rip tide and genuinely qualified recruits trying to find a place to play.
There are very few safe havens with for the college baseball recruit these days. I began wondering what would my son have done differently (10 years ago) given this situation. There is no doubt in my mind that we would have de-emphasized D1-MidMajors with scholarship offers (majority of his offers) and focused much earlier on the genuine HA schools with engineering, and rolled the dice on need based financial aid. We found the need based financial aid at some HA schools was equal to 25-50% of what the D1-MidMajors were offering in baseball scholarships. Baseball + SAT scores was his leverage to the HA schools, so that had to be factored into our approach.
Just spit-balling here. There definitely would have been an effect on his recruitment that would have been out of our direct control. As I see it there were only a couple options. Leverage the assets you have or not play college baseball.
Again, I wish those caught up in this the best of luck. If you are a high schooler looking to play college baseball you have to understand all of these market dynamics clearly outlined in this thread or you are screwed.
As always, JMO. Good luck!
The term "on the team" is only on paper. They have to honor your scholarship and have to count you in their 35 but they do not have to let you use their facilities or do anything to get better. Coaches are pretty egotistical, which is partly what makes them successful. There are more than enough that would tell a player who said no thank you I'm staying "good luck." You can stay but you can't use our facilities or have anything to do with the team. And at the right school, you better be a great student because they can make your life tough in the classroom at a baseball school. They are only required to honor your scholarship and count you. Nothing more. I can't imagine what that would be like.
I have seen it once and it ended a kid's career. His dad thought he could force a college coach to play his kid and the kid was shunned for an entire year. You don't get better not doing anything. The local hitting facilities would not let him use their facility because the college coach put pressure on them. When he got ready to transfer, his name was mud in the baseball community. The dad has always gotten his way in life by being a bully and the coach was more of a deterrent than the dad thought. The bad part was the kid was the pawn and he ultimately lost everything.
The thing is, 2021s that have committed have a choice (although their recruiting window has become a nightmare, I still see kids committing daily). They will see the numbers at their position and can compare themselves to the competition. 2020s really don’t have options. They’ve signed. Where would they go if a coach hasn’t asked them to go? I know my son is walking into a very tough situation. Every single pitcher in his recruiting class throws 90+. Several throw 95. There are multiple top 100 kids and All Americans. I would guess all of them had multiple offers from great schools. They have probably always been the top player on their team but they are walking into a full roster. These aren’t the kind of kids who think they won’t make it. They all probably have an equal shot going in, but there is a reality of limited roster spots. All you can really do in my mind is give it 100%, so there are no regrets and see how it plays out. There are for sure kids who will transfer at semester, kids will get redshirted, but I don’t think most competitors would ever have peace knowing they didn’t try. My only real goal for my son is that he can have peace about his decisions because he did all he could.
@PitchingFan posted:The term "on the team" is only on paper. They have to honor your scholarship and have to count you in their 35 but they do not have to let you use their facilities or do anything to get better. Coaches are pretty egotistical, which is partly what makes them successful. There are more than enough that would tell a player who said no thank you I'm staying "good luck." You can stay but you can't use our facilities or have anything to do with the team. And at the right school, you better be a great student because they can make your life tough in the classroom at a baseball school. They are only required to honor your scholarship and count you. Nothing more. I can't imagine what that would be like.
I have seen it once and it ended a kid's career. His dad thought he could force a college coach to play his kid and the kid was shunned for an entire year. You don't get better not doing anything. The local hitting facilities would not let him use their facility because the college coach put pressure on them. When he got ready to transfer, his name was mud in the baseball community. The dad has always gotten his way in life by being a bully and the coach was more of a deterrent than the dad thought. The bad part was the kid was the pawn and he ultimately lost everything.
You have perfectly described the way the scenario would play out if a kid were to show up and force a coaches hand after being told he wasn’t wanted. This is exactly what I was alluding to yesterday. I saw this happen to a teammate when I was a player. When he didn’t leave and forfeit his scholarship after the coaches “suggested” he do so, his life was made miserable.
@baseballhs posted:The thing is, 2021s that have committed have a choice (although their recruiting window has become a nightmare, I still see kids committing daily). They will see the numbers at their position and can compare themselves to the competition. 2020s really don’t have options. They’ve signed. Where would they go if a coach hasn’t asked them to go? I know my son is walking into a very tough situation. Every single pitcher in his recruiting class throws 90+. Several throw 95. There are multiple top 100 kids and All Americans. I would guess all of them had multiple offers from great schools. They have probably always been the top player on their team but they are walking into a full roster. These aren’t the kind of kids who think they won’t make it. They all probably have an equal shot going in, but there is a reality of limited roster spots. All you can really do in my mind is give it 100%, so there are no regrets and see how it plays out. There are for sure kids who will transfer at semester, kids will get redshirted, but I don’t think most competitors would ever have peace knowing they didn’t try. My only real goal for my son is that he can have peace about his decisions because he did all he could.
I think there will be a lot of 2020's that are going into programs of all sizes that think they can compete with anyone. But that is not true. So many of my son's 2019 and 2020 friends are leaving where they are or were going because they see the writing on the wall. A couple of them at P5's did not get to play much this year or were redshirted and knew it will be no better and maybe tougher next year. They have begun talking to juco teams about spots. The sad part is the top juco teams are full also so they are having to go down a level of juco. The same way D1 baseball is not even neither is Juco D1. I've thought a lot about what we would have done if this was last year. I think my advice to my son would have been to talk to some of the juco coaches that recruited you. I don't think unless I was the stud that I would be wanting to walk into an SEC school this fall unless I was willing to redshirt a year. I don't see very few if any freshmen playing at most SEC schools next spring. You have all these guys coming back and you have all the Corona freshmen who have a year and games under their belt.
@FriarFred posted:Here is a post I posted awhile back (3/27/20) when this started. Looking back this would have been better it appears with all that is going on... Cant put the Genie back in the bottle...
Question: So would the D1 council actually be doing a prudent thing by not giving anyone the year back? It would still screw the kids that didnt get to compete a full year, but perhaps alleviates some of the "cluster" for the next 4 to 5 years. It would allow most schools to function close to normal other than the juniors maybe not being drafted as originally projected. Of course the JUCO kids that were going to be drafted now may end up going to the D1 school they signed with which impacts could be big. It appears one of the biggest contributing factor is actually MLB only doing 5 (or even 10) rounds that will have major impact on the college game , maybe even more so that whatever the D1 council decides. Unfortunately, someone is going to get screwed from spring sport cancellations. The only question is how many and how long will this effect last?
Andy, has that been in a sealed envelope in a mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagner’s front porch since last Thursday? Only you the Great Karnac can divine the contents of the envelope and can answer the question before it is opened?!? Yessss!!!
@PitchingFan posted:I don't think unless I was the stud that I would be wanting to walk into an SEC school this fall unless I was willing to redshirt a year.
Problem is that everyone is a stud...At the very least, there are too many studs.
@baseballhs posted:Problem is that everyone is a stud...At the very least, there are too many studs.
Everyone thinks they are a stud. The truth is that there is a big difference between a really good player and a stud. Studs are exceptional in every way and they are not very common. Studs have draft talent. There are lots of really good players that don’t.
I don't think that is the case for everyone but most. When my son was 15 at WWBA, he watched two kids throw 96 and turned and looked at me and said that is crazy. I wish my friends could see this and know I might be the best in our town but definitely not the best in the US or close to it. I think the cream of the crop, many of the top 250, know where they stand. But I also think there are a lot of parents out there that are dillusional and don't realize where their kid actually is and then convince their kid he is one of the best. When you truly see the studs, you know it. If you take off the rose colored glasses. I knew where all of my kids were and maybe was too honest with them. Mine knows next year he will have to work even harder even though his coaches have confirmed with him by some actions where he stands with them. But he knows that there are guys coming in and guys coming back. I always told mine. Before you get to compete against the guys in the other dugout, you have to beat out the guys in your dugout.
Before you get to protect the T, you have be able to wear the T (Tennessee).
I've seen the studs, played with or against a lot of them. I've also read about players all the time. I know what it looks like. Look at Arkansas for example. They have 9 2020s in the top 150. 4 in the top 50 and one went early in December and played in the Spring. There are some recruiting classes that are loaded with studs that are walking into already pretty stacked rosters. Vanderbilt has 8 in the top 100, walking into an already stacked roster. There CAN be too many studs in one place. The coach is absolutely not going to tell those kids not to come, but regardless there are roster limitations and at most places a kid ranked 200 would stand a good chance, this year is going to be odd.
@baseballhs posted:I've seen the studs, played with or against a lot of them. I've also read about players all the time. I know what it looks like. Look at Arkansas for example. They have 9 2020s in the top 150. 4 in the top 50 and one went early in December and played in the Spring. There are some recruiting classes that are loaded with studs that are walking into already pretty stacked rosters. Vanderbilt has 8 in the top 100, walking into an already stacked roster. There CAN be too many studs in one place. The coach is absolutely not going to tell those kids not to come, but regardless there are roster limitations and at most places a kid ranked 200 would stand a good chance, this year is going to be odd.
Every kid that is recruited out of HS thinks he is a stud and so do his parents. When they get to college is when they find out if they really are. Play on the college field is what determines that. Rankings don’t mean a thing once you get to college. There are a lot of highly ranked kids coming out of HS that don’t crack a college lineup until their Jr year. Maybe we have different definitions of what a stud is. In my book there is no such thing as a college team that is completely comprised of studs. There are always role players and they are important too.
The very top level studs are going to be drafted. The ones that could have gone 5-20 round, if they would have agreed to the money, are the ones that are stacked up on several teams. Especially when the Junior SS (insert any position) that was going to go in the draft won't now because there are only 5 rounds.
@adbono posted:Everyone thinks they are a stud. The truth is that there is a big difference between a really good player and a stud. Studs are exceptional in every way and they are not very common. Studs have draft talent. There are lots of really good players that don’t.
I agree. There are studs, and then there are studs, you know what I mean?
Heard that a P5 with a lot of studs probably has to drop quite a few. Draft issues. Thats what happens when you recruit too many studs!
@adbono posted:Everyone thinks they are a stud. The truth is that there is a big difference between a really good player and a stud. Studs are exceptional in every way and they are not very common. Studs have draft talent. There are lots of really good players that don’t.
Sometimes even the pros can't tell the difference. My 2017 played with 2 future top of the first round draft choices. Both were really good players. Both definitely proved themselves to be studs in college. Neither was drafted out of HS. I think one of them didn't even have any home visits.
Talked to a current player at the JUCO my son will attend and he said only four Sophomore players are moving on as of now. That really surprised me. Is that how it is going to be at most JUCO's?
I know NAIA is a bit of a different animal but I ran across a Christian NAIA in Oklahoma (decent program) where all nine seniors have elected to return. They rely heavily on JC transfers and players from the Dominican and other Latin American players.
@d-mac posted:Talked to a current player at the JUCO my son will attend and he said only four Sophomore players are moving on as of now. That really surprised me. Is that how it is going to be at most JUCO's?
It is hard to quantify most. This is one of those things that is going to vary greatly by school. There are so many factors that go into this. Some 4-year schools are freeing up the scholarship money necessary to bring in their signed juco guys and some are telling them stay put and we will bring you in next year (unless they find someone else they prefer). Some schools are still having discussions with current unsigned juco sophs about whether they may have a roster spot / scholarship money open up in the next few weeks although I don't believe there is a lot of this happening. Some jucos will bring in more players this fall than they have in the past and let them fight it out. Others will bring in the same number but may have upgraded the typical talent level due to more players being available. I believe jucos are also able to keep last years sophs on scholarship in addition to the normal limit but this also depends on available funding by school. Not all schools can afford to do that.
@d-mac posted:Talked to a current player at the JUCO my son will attend and he said only four Sophomore players are moving on as of now. That really surprised me. Is that how it is going to be at most JUCO's?
Can you provide me the name of the school? You can PM it to me.
@cabbagedad posted:I know NAIA is a bit of a different animal but I ran across a Christian NAIA in Oklahoma (decent program) where all nine seniors have elected to return. They rely heavily on JC transfers and players from the Dominican and other Latin American players.
Cabbage, can you PM me the school. I would like to review their history in the system.
Junior college sophomores who are planning to return to their JUCO for a 3rd year since this past season was cut so short need to really be aware of the academic requirements to be eligible when they move on to an NCAA program, especially at the Division I level.
Juco athletes and families considering that option may want to consider contacting us for a consultation to review all of those academic requirements that they will have to satisfy to be eligible upon transfer to the four-year college level.
@Rick at Informed Athlete posted:Junior college sophomores who are planning to return to their JUCO for a 3rd year since this past season was cut so short need to really be aware of the academic requirements to be eligible when they move on to an NCAA program, especially at the Division I level.
Juco athletes and families considering that option may want to consider contacting us for a consultation to review all of those academic requirements that they will have to satisfy to be eligible upon transfer to the four-year college level.
This is very sound advice. If this applies to your situation I would do what Rick is suggesting.
https://community.hsbaseballwe...25#61699676356595425
@d-mac My son, after red shirting his freshman year at CSUN transferred to a JC. He's returning even though academic scheduling will be tight. Very few of the sophomores are returning. Almost all of them are moving on to four year schools.
So, root, jr. will be in his third year of school and hasn't used a year of eligibility yet. Strange times.
Does anyone have an updated Transfer Portal list?
@adbono posted:This is very sound advice. If this applies to your situation I would do what Rick is suggesting.
I second this... the transfer requirement target moves significantly when a third year of JC is chosen and a Juco player really needs to know what's up or he can easily find himself unable to make the immediate jump to a 4-yr program. And, he needs to keep in mind that he has most likely already delayed the process of completing college by one year.
Here is current transfer portal list
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Question.... why would a D1 transfer to a D1 ... dont they have to sit out a year ?
@c2019 posted:Question.... why would a D1 transfer to a D1 ... dont they have to sit out a year ?
Yes, most will have to establish the "academic year in residence" (there are a few exceptions) at the new D1. The only alternative is one year of juco. Some guys would prefer to go directly to the new D1, get to know the new staff and teammates, and practice with the team for the off year. Getting the additional COVID year of eligibility might make that choice more palatable, too.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Yes, most will have to establish the "academic year in residence" (there are a few exceptions) at the new D1. The only alternative is one year of juco. Some guys would prefer to go directly to the new D1, get to know the new staff and teammates, and practice with the team for the off year. Getting the additional COVID year of eligibility might make that choice more palatable, too.
I didn't think about sitting out a year but coupled with Covid year someone can transfer D1 to D1 and also complete graduate school. They would play baseball 4 of 6 years (well 4.2 of 6 years) and exit with a master's. Not a bad plan at all. Of course they need the dough.....
What do you think happens to most of these guys who are on the list when August rolls around and they have no where to go? I cannot imagine the old school taking them back after going in the portal. Are they done? I know many of the graduate guys are just wanting one more chance but what about the younger guys? Any experience? Do they spend the fall looking for somewhere or just enroll in a local school which may be too late by August?
PitchingFan raises some good questions. One point to keep in mind is that making a last-minute decision to enroll somewhere this Fall if it's not where an athlete wants to end up could have consequences on the athlete's future eligibility.
For example, if an athlete (in any sport) leaving a Division I program would choose to enroll at a junior college this Fall to live at home and save money, they would be triggering the "4-2-4" transfer rules which might negatively impact their eligibility at the next college that they attend depending upon various factors.
In a similar manner, there could be negative consequences if an athlete transfers from a D1 program to a D2 program this Fall as an "interim step" and then would move to another D2 program.
In most cases, there's no going back once an athlete enters the Transfer Portal. It all depends upon the coach.
@FriarFred posted:Here is current transfer portal list
Thanks for posting. I wonder if the D3 dropdowns are not listed because there is no NLI? Or because this is from D1 baseball and it's not on their radar? I have direct knowledge about one player who is not listed and have heard about a few others.
@PitchingFan posted:What do you think happens to most of these guys who are on the list when August rolls around and they have no where to go? I cannot imagine the old school taking them back after going in the portal. Are they done? I know many of the graduate guys are just wanting one more chance but what about the younger guys? Any experience? Do they spend the fall looking for somewhere or just enroll in a local school which may be too late by August?
This is an excellent point. The portal has a ton of names in it and only a small % are grad transfers. Undergrads in portal are trying to leave programs with no specific destination in mind. Rosters are full everywhere and in many cases there is no place for these kids to go. My bet is that over half of them won’t be playing anywhere in 2021. I would love to be wrong about that.
...only a small % are grad transfers.
Sorry to quible but it's almost 30%.
@JCG posted:...only a small % are grad transfers.
Sorry to quible but it's almost 30%.
Okay. Fair enough. But supply exceeds demand by a huge margin. That’s the point.
I agree with the rest of your post. The picture is bleak for these kids. Your estimate that 50% of the non-grads won't be playing may be too optimistic. As for the grads, I think most of these are just putting their toes in the water and very few will be playing.
@adbono posted:This is an excellent point. The portal has a ton of names in it and only a small % are grad transfers. Undergrads in portal are trying to leave programs with no specific destination in mind. Rosters are full everywhere and in many cases there is no place for these kids to go. My bet is that over half of them won’t be playing anywhere in 2021. I would love to be wrong about that.
Plus the trickle down affect. How many D2 and D3 rosters will add these D1 guys at the last minute (no roster limits) which means less playing time for the "recruited" kids.
NCAA will allow unlimited roster spots for 2021.
Does going to a D1 and redshirting become more appealing than going JUCO if you are a 2020?
"Unlimited roster spots" is not accurate. Only players who were in their final season of Division I eligibility during 2020 and will be returning to their same Division I team in 2021 will be allowed to count in excess of the standard 35-man roster limit.
d-mac, where is your source for unlimited roster spots in 2021? All that has been said by the NCAA is returning Seniors do not count against the 35 man roster. All coach comments that I have seen is they do not believe that there will be any more allowances on roster size from the NCAA.
@Rick at Informed Athlete posted:"Unlimited roster spots" is not accurate. Only players who were in their final season of Division I eligibility during 2020 and will be returning to their same Division I team in 2021 will be allowed to count in excess of the standard 35-man roster limit.
I do believe he was referencing D2 rosters and D1 transfers moving down to D2.
@TXsportsdad posted:d-mac, where is your source for unlimited roster spots in 2021? All that has been said by the NCAA is returning Seniors do not count against the 35 man roster. All coach comments that I have seen is they do not believe that there will be any more allowances on roster size from the NCAA.
Almost positive he was talking about D1's moving down to D2 and D3 with unlimited rosters at those levels.
Looking at the list and seeing who has landed, you can see that transferring possibilities are a lot more numerous for pitchers, than position players- especially those going grad route.
Sounds good.
roothog, that may be true, but if so why specifically say "for 2021." D2 has never had roster size limitations.
@JCG posted:Thanks for posting. I wonder if the D3 dropdowns are not listed because there is no NLI? Or because this is from D1 baseball and it's not on their radar? I have direct knowledge about one player who is not listed and have heard about a few others.
Even for D1s the portal has somewhat of a "lag" in posts. A Wofford transfer is now shown in the latest file. I read about his transfer on a front page of a local newspaper about a month ago.
@TXsportsdad posted:d-mac, where is your source for unlimited roster spots in 2021? All that has been said by the NCAA is returning Seniors do not count against the 35 man roster. All coach comments that I have seen is they do not believe that there will be any more allowances on roster size from the NCAA.
This was announced today. There is no roster limitation next year, and the annual counter has increased from 27 to 32, also the 25% minimum for scholarship is eliminated for next year.
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@roothog66 posted:I do believe he was referencing D2 rosters and D1 transfers moving down to D2.
I was reading a post from Midatlantic dad and mistaking it for the one you're referencing:
"Plus the trickle down affect. How many D2 and D3 rosters will add these D1 guys at the last minute (no roster limits) which means less playing time for the "recruited" kids."
Looks as if this is true:
@Ripken Fan posted:Even for D1s the portal has somewhat of a "lag" in posts. A Wofford transfer is now shown in the latest file. I read about his transfer on a front page of a local newspaper about a month ago.
Some of the ones that are going in the portal now may have made the decision earlier. I know several guys at various schools that are not going back where they were but are waiting to enter the portal. Some are having conversations or discussions or feelers out there to find out where they fall. It is like recruiting all over again. If you couldn't compete like you wanted to in the pond you thought you were in where do you fall. If you were in a P5, do you go another P5, regular D1, mid-major, juco, or drop down. What pond should you be in ? For some, it is a rude awakening and takes a while to figure out.
The other issue for some that are just going into portal is summer ball. Many summer college leagues require you to be on a college roster to play and some require a certain level or a certain college. If you go in the portal, some of the leagues will drop you. So some are waiting to go in the portal until they start summer league or finish summer league.
I stand corrected. Hadn't seen the action taken by the NCAA that was just announced a couple of hours ago. The number of athletes in the transfer portal combined with seniors returning at their same school may have had something to do with that decision.
@PitchingFan posted:Some of the ones that are going in the portal now may have made the decision earlier. I know several guys at various schools that are not going back where they were but are waiting to enter the portal. Some are having conversations or discussions or feelers out there to find out where they fall. It is like recruiting all over again. If you couldn't compete like you wanted to in the pond you thought you were in where do you fall. If you were in a P5, do you go another P5, regular D1, mid-major, juco, or drop down. What pond should you be in ? For some, it is a rude awakening and takes a while to figure out.
The other issue for some that are just going into portal is summer ball. Many summer college leagues require you to be on a college roster to play and some require a certain level or a certain college. If you go in the portal, some of the leagues will drop you. So some are waiting to go in the portal until they start summer league or finish summer league.
Yeah. My son made that mistake last year and got dropped from his Alaska league roster spot.
@Rick at Informed Athlete posted:I stand corrected. Hadn't seen the action taken by the NCAA that was just announced a couple of hours ago. The number of athletes in the transfer portal combined with seniors returning at their same school may have had something to do with that decision.
This is nice for one year, but the big question is what the hell happens in 2022?
Yeah. I reckon they think this will put a bandaid on it. But then what? how many schools can handle more players? You talk about the cost of baseball, this just adds to it. How many players will get to school and find out that their scholarship is going to be lowered to less than 25%?
@roothog66 posted:This is nice for one year, but the big question is what the hell happens in 2022?
I think the draft has a lot to do with it, and this new ruling for a year, would affect the programs that were expecting kids to be drafted and leave the program as well as HS players not coming to campus and probably are now.
It's my opinion that the NCAA never really took the time to think this through.
I've started thinking that the NCAA pulled the trigger on a lot of this before giving it much thought. In retrospect, even though it gives my own kid a year of eligibility back, the less problematic answer might have been to simply let things stand. Some kids would have gotten screwed a little, but the current answer to the problem is likely t screw a lot more for a lot longer.
@roothog66 posted:I've started thinking that the NCAA pulled the trigger on a lot of this before giving it much thought. In retrospect, even though it gives my own kid a year of eligibility back, the less problematic answer might have been to simply let things stand. Some kids would have gotten screwed a little, but the current answer to the problem is likely t screw a lot more for a lot longer.
Unfortunately none of the other spring sports have the problems that baseball have. There aren't any professional implications with track, softball, etc. They chose to do good by the seniors, but it will cause 4 years of mess for baseball, with the 2021 season being an absolute nightmare for most. Rather than screw out one set of kids (college seniors), they will be screwing 9 years worth of kids ranging from college 5th years to high school freshmen.
So what happens to a juco kid soph who is going to a D1? He goes in as a Jr now and the soph who was already there stays a soph and has an extra year ?
NLI's are fixed for this year so unless a college coach is successful getting an incoming 2020 to "volunteer" to go elsewhere (JUCO, D2, D3, etc.) then the one-year 25% minimum being lifted was absolutely necessary so teams can comply will the 11.7 scholarship number. So what that means is returning players will have $ reduced in order to meet the new 11.7/32 ruling.
And what about 2021's? They won't be signing NLI's until November so you can bet the "verbal" $'s will be much less than promised. But at least they will be 25% minimum. That is if they are still receiving athletic money. Current 2021 verbal commits will likely be given one of the four following options:
1. No athletic $ reduction (least likely)
2. Athletic $ reduced from what was verbally offered but no less than the 25% minimum (back to normal NCAA ruling of 11.7/27)
3. All athletic $ dropped (they will now be preferred walk-ons)
4. Verbal offer rescinded
@c2019 posted:So what happens to a juco kid soph who is going to a D1? He goes in as a Jr now and the soph who was already there stays a soph and has an extra year ?
The NJCAA has already made some changes that would allow kids to come back to NJCAA. For example, they won't be required to take a full load in their final semester as long as they're scheduled to graduate. I think the one change they REALLY need to make is to class eligibility requirements. Currently, you have to take 12 hours AT THE SCHOOL your playing for. It would help if they would allow kids to take concurrent classes from 4 yr schools online that would count toward the 12.
Another problem I see coming up at all levels is academic eligibility. Many schools went to pass-fail during this past Spring semester. I have also heard from several SA parents who tell me their kids did not handle online classes well. I think you're going to see a much higher than usual number of kids academically ineligible.
Okay, so if they stay at juco they get another year . If they go on to D1 they lose a year per say-
@ABSORBER posted:NLI's are fixed for this year so unless a college coach is successful getting an incoming 2020 to "volunteer" to go elsewhere (JUCO, D2, D3, etc.) then the one-year 25% minimum being lifted was absolutely necessary so teams can comply will the 11.7 scholarship number. So what that means is returning players will have $ reduced in order to meet the new 11.7/32 ruling.
That is my point, why would any returning player voluntarily reduce their scholarship? Programs could absolutely stay under the 11.7. The draft would make it tricky for programs that planned on losing guys, but for the overwhelming majority it can easily be done. Bringing back seniors was optional, giving them money was also optional.
Asking players to take less money so they can bring their competition back is not going to fly with most. We also know that money isn't going to seniors, but transfer portal guys.
IMO it is going to get way uglier with this move.
@c2019 posted:Okay, so if they stay at juco they get another year . If they go on to D1 they lose a year per say-
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but, the 2020 season doesn't count against them whether they stay or go. A sophomore who stayed would still enter the NCAA in 2022 with two remaining years of eligibility.
@ABSORBER posted:NLI's are fixed for this year so unless a college coach is successful getting an incoming 2020 to "volunteer" to go elsewhere (JUCO, D2, D3, etc.) then the one-year 25% minimum being lifted was absolutely necessary so teams can comply will the 11.7 scholarship number. So what that means is returning players will have $ reduced in order to meet the new 11.7/32 ruling.
Just heard third hand about an incoming freshman who was asked this week to give up his 25% scholarship the first year, but they still want him to attend. It's going to be a year like no other.
@PABaseball posted:That is my point, why would any returning player voluntarily reduce their scholarship? Programs could absolutely stay under the 11.7. The draft would make it tricky for programs that planned on losing guys, but for the overwhelming majority it can easily be done. Bringing back seniors was optional, giving them money was also optional.
Asking players to take less money so they can bring their competition back is not going to fly with most. We also know that money isn't going to seniors, but transfer portal guys.
IMO it is going to get way uglier with this move.
Another question would concern P5 schools who are required to give 4yr scholarships. If they gave a bunch of freshman 15% scholarships for 2021 would those automatically have to be renewed at 25% for 2022-2024?
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Just heard third hand about an incoming freshman who was asked this week to give up his 25% scholarship the first year, but they still want him to attend. It's going to be a year like no other.
I just spoke to a dad of a kid at a P5 who spent 2020 as the backup to a guy expected to go in the draft. He still might, depending on what happens tonight, but it's looking like what was once a gimme he'd be gone is more like 50/50. In addition, this school just took two graduate transfers at his position, one of which was an All-American last year at his previous school. He is being asked to consider going to JuCO next year with a "promise" they'll bring him back. Hmmm. He had a scholarship considerably above 25%.
I've said it on this forum several times already. Obviously it's an individual decision. I'd keep the scholarship and see what happens.
Cant blame a coach for trying though! Just because he asks doesn't mean you have to give in. If he offered (and you signed) for 50% just six months ago don't you think he thought you were worth it then? Of course he wants to maximize, who wouldn't? At 50% AND that's the school I want to attend, I'd take my chances.
As far as the P5 4-year scholarships are concerned: that's not a NCAA rule so I don't know how each school and conference will handle it. I'd be surprised if the $$ amount CAN'T be adjusted; that's between each school and the player. I'm no expert so perhaps someone else knows about P5 "adjustments" from year to year and can add some insight.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Just heard third hand about an incoming freshman who was asked this week to give up his 25% scholarship the first year, but they still want him to attend. It's going to be a year like no other.
That's not uncommon, but the coach needs to double up the next year.
I really feel that most coaches will do the right thing as they are trying to deal with a really tough situation, which is too many players and too many changes.
@TPM posted:That's not uncommon, but the coach needs to double up the next year.
I really feel that most coaches will do the right thing as they are trying to deal with a really tough situation, which is too many players and too many changes.
Hopefully this is true or rosters will be huge. Don't see too many coaches wanting 50(+/-) on their roster, but who knows. The NCAA certainly seems somewhat diabolical here in that they could have done this 2 months ago when they extended a year of eligibility to everyone.
But the only things on the NCAA's mind right now are keeping the college football season intact, the next basketball season, and addressing NIL. They really don't care at all about college baseball, players or coaches.
A better solution would've been to keep the 35 roster limit(except for returning seniors), but allow 11.7 scholarships to be divided amongst all 35.
Seriously, thanks to the NCAA, how many awkward conversations already took place and how many going forward are going to start with, " Coach, you said you didn't have room for me?, but the NCAA just lifted roster restrictions. So....?"
And the conversations that start with "I know we said we had room for you, but now that the NCAA opened the rosters you will have to beat out not only the ones who are here but the 5 juco guys that we have coming in now that we can have more."
finding all this fascinating...the transfer portal info is definitely not up to date as I personally know two names on it from a P5 who weeks ago found homes. In addition, while it does not include D3 transfers, the info sometimes shows when the transfer is going D2 or D3 but is not showing a lot of the grad transfers finding new homes. There are some HA D3 that are stocking up on D1 grad transfers, going to be an interesting year for sure.
Latest list of transfers - Over 1000 now
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@FriarFred posted:Latest list of transfers - Over 1000 now
Close to 300 are graduates. So sad guys lost their Sr year
The transfers in the portal are getting more interesting. Now that roster sizes are unlimited for the 2021 season, more guys seem to be finding new baseball homes, at least for next year.
The NCAA just continues to create messes when it comes to college baseball. If the NCAA fails to act on time( addressing the 35/27/11.7 before 2021s are due to sign NLIs in November), they are going to create a new mess for college baseball coaches and players to deal with just as they are preparing for their do-over season.
@Pedaldad posted:The transfers in the portal are getting more interesting. Now that roster sizes are unlimited for the 2021 season, more guys seem to be finding new baseball homes, at least for next year.
The NCAA just continues to create messes when it comes to college baseball. If the NCAA fails to act on time( addressing the 35/27/11.7 before 2021s are due to sign NLIs in November), they are going to create a new mess for college baseball coaches and players to deal with just as they are preparing for their do-over season.
I'm seeing the same thing. I see guys getting picked up a the D1 level out of JC that you normally might not see there. What happens next year to the kid who goes onto a D1 roster of 45 players who doesn't belong there? In 2022 when they reinstate the limits, there will be a lot of disappointed players in a crunch.
The more this goes on, the more I think the NCAA - at least for baseball - jumped too quick to find a solution. In retrospect, the better plan may have been no plan at all.
@roothog66 posted:I'm seeing the same thing. I see guys getting picked up a the D1 level out of JC that you normally might not see there. What happens next year to the kid who goes onto a D1 roster of 45 players who doesn't belong there? In 2022 when they reinstate the limits, there will be a lot of disappointed players in a crunch.
The more this goes on, the more I think the NCAA - at least for baseball - jumped too quick to find a solution. In retrospect, the better plan may have been no plan at all.
The NCAA cow towed to the student athlete council and responded on emotion without using any rational thinking or common sense about the consequences. It was a very poor decision all to make people feel good. But that’s how we do things these days.
@Fmr coach now Dad posted:The NCAA cow towed to the student athlete council and responded on emotion without using any rational thinking or common sense about the consequences. It was a very poor decision all to make people feel good. But that’s how we do things these days.
100% correct on all fronts.
@Fmr coach now Dad posted:The NCAA cow towed to the student athlete council and responded on emotion without using any rational thinking or common sense about the consequences. It was a very poor decision all to make people feel good. But that’s how we do things these days.
Agree as well 100%.
@Fmr coach now Dad posted:The NCAA cow towed to the student athlete council and responded on emotion without using any rational thinking or common sense about the consequences. It was a very poor decision all to make people feel good. But that’s how we do things these days.
Unless something has changed for non-revenue sports, hasn't it always been about how to increase school enrollment? Overall enrollment provides simple revenue (tuition, room and board).
The governing bodies are just the supply chain for Human Capital Management.
Indentured is a good book about the NCAA.
@ABSORBER posted:I've said it on this forum several times already. Obviously it's an individual decision. I'd keep the scholarship and see what happens.
Cant blame a coach for trying though! Just because he asks doesn't mean you have to give in. If he offered (and you signed) for 50% just six months ago don't you think he thought you were worth it then? Of course he wants to maximize, who wouldn't? At 50% AND that's the school I want to attend, I'd take my chances.
As far as the P5 4-year scholarships are concerned: that's not a NCAA rule so I don't know how each school and conference will handle it. I'd be surprised if the $$ amount CAN'T be adjusted; that's between each school and the player. I'm no expert so perhaps someone else knows about P5 "adjustments" from year to year and can add some insight.
This just happened to my kid. I posted about it in another thread. I would link to that but not sure how. Anyway, he was asked to "release" himself from his NLI along with 6 other freshman. It's easy to say that the kid doesn't have to do it, but what's the other option? Keep the money and show up on a team that already told you they want to give your money to someone else and don't really value you? That would be fun for an 18 year old in a brand new place with no support system developed yet. So - he and all the others released themselves - fortunately we can afford to still send him to that school but others can't. It's a total bullshit situation and the NCAA turns a blind eye.
@Jam24 posted:This just happened to my kid. I posted about it in another thread. I would link to that but not sure how. Anyway, he was asked to "release" himself from his NLI along with 6 other freshman. It's easy to say that the kid doesn't have to do it, but what's the other option? Keep the money and show up on a team that already told you they want to give your money to someone else and don't really value you? That would be fun for an 18 year old in a brand new place with no support system developed yet. So - he and all the others released themselves - fortunately we can afford to still send him to that school but others can't. It's a total bullshit situation and the NCAA turns a blind eye.
Your son and the other players did not have to release themselves. That was their money and they did not have to remain on the team but still could use it towards their first year to attend. Those students remain as counters towards the number of scholarships. They don't tell you that part.
It's really a shame and I am sorry. This situation has given a lot of coaches a big headache, but that doesn't give them a reason to not do the right thing.
TPM, you're right in that those players didn't have to release themselves and would have been entitled to their scholarship money once they enrolled this Fall as long as they were satisfied all admission requirements and all NCAA eligibility requirements.
However, regarding your comment "they did not have to remain on the team, but still could use it..." - that would depend upon how the situation unfolded. If they didn't show up to practice because they felt they were being harassed or bullied by a coach who didn't really want them to take that scholarship, the athletic dept. likely would have interpreted that as "quitting" the team. That would give the athletic department the right to immediately cancel their scholarship.
The situation definitely stinks, and I'm certainly not trying to defend the coach, but just clarifying that it would be highly unlikely that they could keep their scholarship through the year even if they didn't remain on the team.
The coaches ultimately hold the power. "You may have a scholarship that the Power 5 rules say is "guaranteed" to you, but if you ever want to see the field, you'll need to go elsewhere." A player has few choices when the coach says that.
Thanks for the clarification, but they should not have to give up their scholarship. And it's more shameful that they felt that they may have been treated unfairly if they showed up.
It is illegal to take away an incoming players NLI and probably should be made illegal for them to ask.
It's bad because it gives coaches a bad rap. Even the ones who do it the right way.
@TPM posted:Thanks for the clarification, but they should not have to give up their scholarship. And it's more shameful that they felt that they may have been treated unfairly if they showed up.
It is illegal to take away an incoming players NLI and probably should be made illegal for them to ask.
It's bad because it gives coaches a bad rap. Even the ones who do it the right way.
I agree with @TPM. Especially if that player will STILL BE ATTENDING THE VERY SAME SCHOOL!! Seriously, you are going to give up those athletic dollars so you don't hurt anyones feelings and you don't want to be vilified?
Of course you go to every practice, that's why you have a scholarship! Bullied!!!??? Grow up and put on your big boy pants.
If you gave up your scholarship and plan to remain at the same school, I have no sympathy for you whatsoever.
If you left because playing baseball is your primary purpose in life then I may give you a pass but only if you have a decent plan. But chances are, if you don't think you were good enough for the team where you gave up your scholarship then you have an uphill battle.
@TPM posted:Thanks for the clarification, but they should not have to give up their scholarship. And it's more shameful that they felt that they may have been treated unfairly if they showed up.
It is illegal to take away an incoming players NLI and probably should be made illegal for them to ask.
It's bad because it gives coaches a bad rap. Even the ones who do it the right way.
I agree it should be illegal to ask them to unsign themselves. Hard to say how he would have been treated if he kept the money and showed up to try to get on the team, but in an 18yos mind, the power is for sure not in his hands in that situation. That's exactly why it should be illegal to ask them to unsign themselves. The SAs literally have no recourse, no leverage, and no power.
@ABSORBER posted:I agree with @TPM. Especially if that player will STILL BE ATTENDING THE VERY SAME SCHOOL!! Seriously, you are going to give up those athletic dollars so you don't hurt anyones feelings and you don't want to be vilified?
Of course you go to every practice, that's why you have a scholarship! Bullied!!!??? Grow up and put on your big boy pants.
If you gave up your scholarship and plan to remain at the same school, I have no sympathy for you whatsoever.
If you left because playing baseball is your primary purpose in life then I may give you a pass but only if you have a decent plan. But chances are, if you don't think you were good enough for the team where you gave up your scholarship then you have an uphill battle.
I'm not sure who you are telling to put their big boy pants on and who you have no sympathy for, but if it's my son then you should be ashamed of yourself. The only person who needs to grow up and deserves no sympathy is a coach who
- had my son sign a contract that restricted him from looking at other schools or pursuing other options,
- allowed him to register for courses, meet with his athletic and academic advisors,
- had the school send us a bill with the amount of the scholarship accounted for,
- and then 5 weeks before the start of school had the pitching coach and recruiting coordinator call him to say they needed to give his money to someone else who hadn't gone in the draft.
Who does that? A person with no integrity and zero ethics. It should be illegal - breach of contract or restraint of trade. They kept him until absolutely the last minute and then pulled the rug out from under him.
I never said anything about being "bullied." I said the power dynamic for an 18yo moving to a new place with no support system and no advocates would make it extremely difficult to keep the money and show up for practice with a set of people who just told you they don't really want you. If you or your son would be able to manage that, then that would be the choice you would make I guess.
My son is going to the school, trying to earn a spot by working his ass off, and then transferring.
Next time, maybe try not to belittle people who are in a shitty situation not at all of their own making.
@Jam24 posted:I agree it should be illegal to ask them to unsign themselves. Hard to say how he would have been treated if he kept the money and showed up to try to get on the team, but in an 18yos mind, the power is for sure not in his hands in that situation. That's exactly why it should be illegal to ask them to unsign themselves. The SAs literally have no recourse, no leverage, and no power.
I understand how your son may have felt. It's on the coach for putting the players in the position and that was his decision. And the do it over and over because they know that they can get away with it.
I sent you a private message.
@Jam24 posted:I'm not sure who you are telling to put their big boy pants on and who you have no sympathy for, but if it's my son then you should be ashamed of yourself. The only person who needs to grow up and deserves no sympathy is a coach who
- had my son sign a contract that restricted him from looking at other schools or pursuing other options,
- allowed him to register for courses, meet with his athletic and academic advisors,
- had the school send us a bill with the amount of the scholarship accounted for,
- and then 5 weeks before the start of school had the pitching coach and recruiting coordinator call him to say they needed to give his money to someone else who hadn't gone in the draft.
Who does that? A person with no integrity and zero ethics. It should be illegal - breach of contract or restraint of trade. They kept him until absolutely the last minute and then pulled the rug out from under him.
I never said anything about being "bullied." I said the power dynamic for an 18yo moving to a new place with no support system and no advocates would make it extremely difficult to keep the money and show up for practice with a set of people who just told you they don't really want you. If you or your son would be able to manage that, then that would be the choice you would make I guess.
My son is going to the school, trying to earn a spot by working his ass off, and then transferring.
Next time, maybe try not to belittle people who are in a shitty situation not at all of their own making.
It was a generalization and I mean what I say. The "bullying" and "big boy" pants was in response to a reply from @Rick at Informed Athlete.
But if you are telling me your son did this then I still mean it. Why did he give up the money? Walk-on? Your son didn't NEED to walk-on, he already had a spot. Now if he "walks-on", the other players will say, hey kid, thanks for the $$$.
You should have called the coach's bluff. As I stated in an earlier post, the coach just asked your son to give it up; he most definitely didn't force him to do it.
So yes, I feel bad for your son and I agree it's not cool for a coach do ask that of a kid. But try to remember, it's the coach's job to win so he can keep his job. This happens all the time in the workplace. Company "A" asks you take a "promotion" and to move to location "B" so you uproot your family and do it! Then the company sells off your division and the new owners have no need for you or your position. Now you are out of a job. Unethical? Illegal? Uncool? I don't think so, it's the real world.
Have you named the school yet? I’m sorry but 7 kids asked to unsign 5 weeks before? We knew we had an issue months ago. That is crap budgeting and crap coaching.
@Jam24 posted:My son is going to the school, trying to earn a spot by working his ass off, and then transferring.
Is your son going to be attending the school that asked him to give up his money? If so, why give up the money? That sounds like a lose lose. Either keep the money and stay or walk away from NLI and transfer.
any update on the transfer portal? Furman has 29 transfers...LOL I am sure there is a back story there!
This is an embarrassment for the entire system but nobody gives a damn anyway so it will just continue. I am actually glad I am almost done with all of this, yes sure I will miss it to some degree but I don't think I have been involved with a more shady thing then college baseball. The few honest ones out there should question what the hell they are doing.
For those of you who think my kid should go to a different school @PABaseball, @ABSORBER, @CollegebaseballInsights can you please send me a list of all the D1 baseball schools still accepting freshmen for the fall where the coach would definitively say he would be given an opportunity as a walk on (so doesn't have an overflowing roster). Also - no Jucos. Thanks. He'd also take high academic D3s still admitting for the fall. We have four more weeks to figure it out.
I've got a list going for January transfers so fall only please.
@Jam24 posted:For those of you who think my kid should go to a different school @PABaseball, @ABSORBER, @CollegebaseballInsights can you please send me a list of all the D1 baseball schools still accepting freshmen for the fall where the coach would definitively say he would be given an opportunity as a walk on (so doesn't have an overflowing roster). Also - no Jucos. Thanks. He'd also take high academic D3s still admitting for the fall. We have four more weeks to figure it out.
I've got a list going for January transfers so fall only please.
@Jam24 IMHO, @PABaseball @ABSORBER and myself provided an opinion because you posted a thread. Each person provided a point of view, you can look at these viewpoints at face value to help you make your decisions.
Now it is up to your son and the family to go back to the drawing board and find your dream school.
From a college research perspective, you understand your choices:
Purchase a service. maybe you should connect with @Rick at Informed Athlete
or
Do It Yourself
Here is a link that you can use to activate your plan.
https://keepplayingbaseball.or...ine+program+research
here is a website
www.collegebaseballinsights.com with all the data for the last 4 years.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
@Jam24 posted:For those of you who think my kid should go to a different school @PABaseball, @ABSORBER, @CollegebaseballInsights can you please send me a list of all the D1 baseball schools still accepting freshmen for the fall where the coach would definitively say he would be given an opportunity as a walk on (so doesn't have an overflowing roster). Also - no Jucos. Thanks. He'd also take high academic D3s still admitting for the fall. We have four more weeks to figure it out.
I've got a list going for January transfers so fall only please.
I never recommended transferring, I suggested your son show up in the fall on athletic scholarship. If that head coach was a good judge of talent then your son has a good chance to make the team. Or at least a better chance than he would if he gave up his scholarship! His chances now are around 0%. That should be obvious.
This is the reason NLI's exist. Because your son DID forgo other potential offers, he DID only apply to the one school that offered, and he (and you) decided you could afford to attend said school. And it's June (was). That's the reason the removal of the 25% minimum was temporarily suspended--because NLIs had already been signed and are binding. The suspension was necessary BECAUSE of this. But that was for the rest of the team, not your son. The coach had to cut someone's scholarship so he asked if any of his incoming freshman would be willing to walk away. It makes things easier for him so he doesn't have to tell existing players that their scholarships will be reduced. NCAA requires this by July 1st. You did him a huge favor. But you did it voluntarily. Remember, this guy's family depends on his job so he's going to do whatever is necessary to keep it. An NLI-signer's family's economic status will NOT be adversely affected should the player walk away from their NLI.
So what would YOU do if you were the coach?
Again, I feel bad for your son but I also feel bad for everyone affected by C-19. Your son had a shot to stay and make the team--on scholarship! If he did not, transfering remained an option. Like I tell my kids, never leave a job without having a new one lined up; I would give the same advice in this situation.
What school was this ? This is going on at all levels
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:@Jam24 IMHO, @PABaseball @ABSORBER and myself provided an opinion because you posted a thread. Each person provided a point of view, you can look at these viewpoints at face value to help you make your decisions.
Now it is up to your son and the family to go back to the drawing board and find your dream school.
From a college research perspective, you understand your choices:
Purchase a service. maybe you should connect with @Rick at Informed Athlete
or
Do It Yourself
Here is a link that you can use to activate your plan.
https://keepplayingbaseball.or...ine+program+research
here is a website
www.collegebaseballinsights.com with all the data for the last 4 years.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
Thank you. You're right - you just provided options and an opinion. It's the snarky, man-splaining, "let me tell you how the real world works" that gets my hackles up. Thoughtful, nuanced responses that are respectful and not condescending are useful. Thank you for the information. We are thoroughly activated in looking at all the options, and right now - until we learn differently - this is the best one for him in a series of less than ideal choices.