Paying 300-400 a year at 9-15 yo to play travel ball is worth every penny regardless if your son grows to play at a higher level. My son's early allstar team had 2 go on to play college. The others benefited by learning to play a team sport and what it takes to compete. Those who have the desire to play allstar BB should be given the opportunity and in fact it is better they got the chance even if they got over taken by late bloomers. Hanging out with rec players is a recipe for failure in regards to BB or any sport.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
Personally, I don't believe where a kid plays prior to playing on the 60/90 field has any bearing at all on his future (high school or beyond). What matters is learning the basics of the game properly. But until the kid can walk on the 60/90 field and prove he belongs, anything he did previous to 13U (smaller fields) and where he did it (rec or travel) is meaningless.
I agree.
This topic contains different opinions and should be respected, regardless of whether we agree with them or not. Very hard sometimes to use our players as examples, because every player and every situation (including where you reside) is different.
FWIW, I am not a proponant of endless season travel ball for young players. Especially young pitchers, my son began kid pitch at 8 in rec ball, we thought moving him to a league that let him pitch would be beneficial. As I look back, not so sure if this was a right decision. At 10 we moved to a travel team within the league, and yes he enjoyed facing better competition at that age. Our travel ball at that age, was not like the travel ball of today, a few games a week, some tournies thoughout the tri county area. We kept it simple, there was no need to travel across country to face better 10,11,12,13 year olds. I don't think that it made much difference in where he is today, other than more work on his arm and kept him out of trouble and we enjoyed the experiences as a family. We met many crazy parents along the way. One I remember in particular, one of those who strutted about because their player was THE player everyone wanted, multiple teams, pitched and hit every game. Mom would go ballistic when the coach began, in HS using those that were moving ahead of him. I don't know where that player is today.
Travel ball for young players is booming, travel teams in general are booming for almost every sport, not so much because they need to play better competition, but because parents want their kids to have the edge over others, and we all know that doesn't always work to their advantage. They are reminded that if they want their son to make the HS team this is a neccesity. I don't agree, I have seen many kids with that innate ability Daque speaks of never play baseball before HS, yet obtain full scholarships and drafted out of HS and playing MLB today. IMO, nothing matters until one reaches HS.
As a good example, one player on a team I watched last year never played bb until he reached HS, played QB and caught the coaches eye and became a pitcher, not bad either for someone just learning the game and how it really works. This player was an athlete, which is what coaches and scouts look for more than anything else, athletic abilties, IMO.
One more thing, we moved early to the 60/90 field, I am not so sure that was a good decision either, but interestingly enough, for many of the really good players on the team, they began to fade away quickly.
I don't think that hanging out with rec ball players is a recipe for disaster, if a young player is having fun, that is all that matters in youth sports. What many tend to do, is push players beyond what they might be ready for, physically and mentally and that can be a recipe for disaster as well.
So TPM did your son want to play travel or did you push him ?
We never pushed anything on him, he was always asked what he wanted to do by the coaches, they didn't ask us, it was his call. The only concern was that he not be abused as a hard throwing pitcher, and if we felt that was an issue, he wouldn't play for anyone. But I don't think it mattered at 10-14, he just wanted to play and be a part of the team and have fun. We knew at a young age he would most likely go a bit farther than most (those innate abilities Daque speaks of) so playing lots of travel ball at that age seemed not necessary for development.
And as you know from pervious posts (many) in the scheme of things son played very little baseball during the middle school years. Spring ball and some fall travel ball (mostly tournies), with lots of rest and doing other things in between.
BTW, I am not too sure about the revelancy what our kids (yours and mine or anyone elses)are doing at 22-23 when this discussion is about middle school travel ball.
And as you know from pervious posts (many) in the scheme of things son played very little baseball during the middle school years. Spring ball and some fall travel ball (mostly tournies), with lots of rest and doing other things in between.
BTW, I am not too sure about the revelancy what our kids (yours and mine or anyone elses)are doing at 22-23 when this discussion is about middle school travel ball.
We have 3 SR leagues here full of former college and high level pro players who never made it to the MLB level a few did) Did they fail ?
Here is a link to some profiles of one team called the Brantford Red Sox of the Intercounty League. To a man they started young and many of them give back by coaching travel teams. The success of BB organizations is giving opportunity to young players starting at as early as 5 years old. Most will fall by the wayside but our local organization tries to ignite a passion for the game whether the player never advances at all. They hold opening day fun games with MLB players there to teach and encourage. I watch these all the time. The lady who runs the rec level is a good friend and her goal is to provide fun and non competitive BB. The organization strives to develop players that will advance to allstar teams and beyond. They provided inexpensive tournaments and free high level instruction. The rec players were also allowed to attend but very few did. Early on the rec players who showed promise gravitated away from rec ball.
The rec ball actually improved at the 17-18 level and even SR because players who were not going to play at a higher level played rec ball. The SR level rec ball has a good league full of college guys who didn't want a real competitive venue anymore after college. We have 3 very good and growing SR leagues offering some great BB.
Rec ball between the ages of 5-8 might be acceptable to some but here the good players have migrated to allstar BB. Nothing to do with insane parents. They are everywhere so why waste mental energy on that.
If you care to scroll down to view other players like Hung Cho.
http://www.brantfordredsox.ca/...=details&rosterId=24
Here is a link to some profiles of one team called the Brantford Red Sox of the Intercounty League. To a man they started young and many of them give back by coaching travel teams. The success of BB organizations is giving opportunity to young players starting at as early as 5 years old. Most will fall by the wayside but our local organization tries to ignite a passion for the game whether the player never advances at all. They hold opening day fun games with MLB players there to teach and encourage. I watch these all the time. The lady who runs the rec level is a good friend and her goal is to provide fun and non competitive BB. The organization strives to develop players that will advance to allstar teams and beyond. They provided inexpensive tournaments and free high level instruction. The rec players were also allowed to attend but very few did. Early on the rec players who showed promise gravitated away from rec ball.
The rec ball actually improved at the 17-18 level and even SR because players who were not going to play at a higher level played rec ball. The SR level rec ball has a good league full of college guys who didn't want a real competitive venue anymore after college. We have 3 very good and growing SR leagues offering some great BB.
Rec ball between the ages of 5-8 might be acceptable to some but here the good players have migrated to allstar BB. Nothing to do with insane parents. They are everywhere so why waste mental energy on that.
If you care to scroll down to view other players like Hung Cho.
http://www.brantfordredsox.ca/...=details&rosterId=24
I am not sure I understand what the above is about or the point you are trying to make with it. This discussion is about pre HS travel ball,not senior leagues, or failing?
The relevance is that they got to where they did by working hard and did it from the beginning. Your son has great mechanics and at some point he had great coaching. If he was a hard thrower at 9-10 and had poor mechanics he may have injured himself like so many I have seen.
If you said no to travel ball would yours on be where he is today ? Would he become unhappy and quit ? I know my son would have quit.
My guy was a great BKTB player who played 1 year rec and 1 season of travel . He was spotted by the travel coach because of his body type and because he crushed the rec teams which were CYO teams. They were actually better than true rec. The next year he tried out for the freshman HS team but was moved up to JV for 2 years and then to Varsity. He was so far behind and if it wasn't for the travel team polishing him up , he probably would have never played at HS. Several of the HS players here went on to play college ball and some pro. Daques comment about a kid making moves having nothing to do with coaching shows how dumb his view is. It is 10 times harder to get a scholarship to D1 college in BKTB than BB. Coaching is everything in developing the innate talent you are born with. Hockey is another sport that is huge here. They start at 5yo and you have to perform inorder to move on.
If you said no to travel ball would yours on be where he is today ? Would he become unhappy and quit ? I know my son would have quit.
My guy was a great BKTB player who played 1 year rec and 1 season of travel . He was spotted by the travel coach because of his body type and because he crushed the rec teams which were CYO teams. They were actually better than true rec. The next year he tried out for the freshman HS team but was moved up to JV for 2 years and then to Varsity. He was so far behind and if it wasn't for the travel team polishing him up , he probably would have never played at HS. Several of the HS players here went on to play college ball and some pro. Daques comment about a kid making moves having nothing to do with coaching shows how dumb his view is. It is 10 times harder to get a scholarship to D1 college in BKTB than BB. Coaching is everything in developing the innate talent you are born with. Hockey is another sport that is huge here. They start at 5yo and you have to perform inorder to move on.
TPM these players all started young . You must have missed that.
My son pitched 2 innings against that team striking out 5. He was still 16 turning 17. How do you think he would do without the years of honing his skills ?
My view is that around 9-10 yo you should look for a good instructional allstar team whether they travel or not. TRYING TO BREAK INTO A GOOD ALLSTAR TEAM GETS HARDER EACH YEAR YOU WAIT. Breaking bad habits gets harder as well.. This is a no brainer. If you play rec and at 18 you find you have a 90+ FB the MLB teams will sign you or you could enter the contest in India and get 1 million for the best arm.
My son pitched 2 innings against that team striking out 5. He was still 16 turning 17. How do you think he would do without the years of honing his skills ?
My view is that around 9-10 yo you should look for a good instructional allstar team whether they travel or not. TRYING TO BREAK INTO A GOOD ALLSTAR TEAM GETS HARDER EACH YEAR YOU WAIT. Breaking bad habits gets harder as well.. This is a no brainer. If you play rec and at 18 you find you have a 90+ FB the MLB teams will sign you or you could enter the contest in India and get 1 million for the best arm.
Actually, my son had good (not stupendous) coaching, and FWIW most just left him alone, the good coaching was just about playing the game more than anything, then he had great coaching in college. He had some sloppy mechanics in HS, fixed up later on. Most players, even the best come out of HS not with the best mechanics.
BHD, you make good points, but as far as becoming good players from the beginning, there is a beginning for everyone, different players, different ages, there is no set of rules, IMO. Better athletes make better players, so we let son do what he wanted, play tennis, play hockey (yes we have this here too). gymnastics, golf, surfing, basketball (lousy rec league but lots of fun we won), etc. I do beleive that most likely contributed more to his success as an athlete, not where he started or how much he play or didn't play.
Daque brings up some good points, I don't see too many disagreeing with some of which he says, only perhpap in pm's, which seem strange as most here are pretty out spoken and not afraid to state their strong opinions or argue a point. I understand what he speaks of, as an example, son didn't pick up a bat for over 3 years, batted .333 his short stint in AA. No lessons, no nothing, just that natural ability. You can't teach that, I think that is what he is saying.
My opinion is also that nothing much counts until one reaches the bigger diamond, then serious stuff begins to happen, for most players, you can't judge a player on the smaller diamond as to what he will or will not be in teh future.
Actually, I don't think much counts until one reaches HS.
BHD, you make good points, but as far as becoming good players from the beginning, there is a beginning for everyone, different players, different ages, there is no set of rules, IMO. Better athletes make better players, so we let son do what he wanted, play tennis, play hockey (yes we have this here too). gymnastics, golf, surfing, basketball (lousy rec league but lots of fun we won), etc. I do beleive that most likely contributed more to his success as an athlete, not where he started or how much he play or didn't play.
Daque brings up some good points, I don't see too many disagreeing with some of which he says, only perhpap in pm's, which seem strange as most here are pretty out spoken and not afraid to state their strong opinions or argue a point. I understand what he speaks of, as an example, son didn't pick up a bat for over 3 years, batted .333 his short stint in AA. No lessons, no nothing, just that natural ability. You can't teach that, I think that is what he is saying.
My opinion is also that nothing much counts until one reaches the bigger diamond, then serious stuff begins to happen, for most players, you can't judge a player on the smaller diamond as to what he will or will not be in teh future.
Actually, I don't think much counts until one reaches HS.
I see some position players who are now milb pitchers who never pitched a game in their life, where did they acquire those skills? Not in youth ball, travel or rec, that is for sure.
My son learned a very valuable lesson playing rec ball. He learned to shake off his fielders not making plays behind him and umpires making horrible calls in front of him. He'll be a high school junior next year. He's as composed as any pitcher I've ever seen on the mound. Nothing shakes him. You can't tell if he's winning or losing. The only thing visible is he's focused.quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
.... If you said no to travel ball would yours on be where he is today ? Would he become unhappy and quit ? I know my son would have quit.
I know kids who played college and pro ball who became pitchers senior year after graduation depleted the high school pitching staff and these kids had arms.quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I see some position players who are now milb pitchers who never pitched a game in their life, where did they acquire those skills? Not in youth ball, travel or rec, that is for sure.
A friend was a catcher until senior year. He pitched in the SEC and MLB for six years. He never made LL all-stars. He was a big klutz until his teens. Another didn't pitch until a couple of weeks before the high school playoffs. He outpitched the local stud pitcher in front of a bunch of scouts, was drafted and signed. He made it to AAA. Neither were D1 prospects as catchers.
You have no idea what you have with a 9U or 10U pitcher unless his dad is a former pro athlete. Even then, that isn't a guarantee.quote:My view is that around 9-10 yo you should look for a good instructional allstar team whether they travel or not. TRYING TO BREAK INTO A GOOD ALLSTAR TEAM GETS HARDER EACH YEAR YOU WAIT.
I've never heard of a good pitcher having trouble finding a good team. No team with roster spots turns away quality pitching.
quote:see some position players who are now milb pitchers who never pitched a game in their life, where did they acquire those skills? Not in youth ball, travel or rec, that is for sure.
I have seen that for years. If you have the arm strength to throw 90 the guys often play other positions including pitching . Joey Votto switched . BB skills are BB skills and at that stage in their life they can be quickly taught to pitch or what ever. They have to get to that level.
Joey when I knew him was a catcher who was moved to 3rd base by a Seattle scout who ran an elite team . He actually pitched prior to that. He now is moved all over the field.
MiLB is a place where their teams try to max what a drafted player can be to the club. If they see a guy who can throw 90+ they will often put them on the mound. Some learn well and others bomb.
As you always point out, you can't compare a pro/ college player to a kid.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com...g/V/Joey-Votto.shtml
BHD,
As to teh question asked, our youth travel ball was more of glorified rec ball, what exists today is completely differnt than back when he was in youth ball.
Yes, I do believe that he would be where he is because of his competitive nature and his love for the game, not because of the little travel ball he played back then.
Interestly enough, in HS, going into junior year, he was called and asked to play due to injured player on one of the best travel teams in the country. He said no, he much rather go on a summer vacation to the Hamptons with friends family and spend time at the beach (like we don't have that here). Was he worse off for not playing...absolutely no.
Entering HS, son was asked to play for one of the better fall travel teams in the area, he choose to play for another team with most of his friends. Was he worse off for not playinhg better competition, absolutely not. And even more, he passed up on playing for some of the better HS programs in HS, did it make a difference, no. He'd rather pitch against the best hitters than play with the best, makes sense to me!
Entering college was a whole different situation.
The point is, as I think that Daque is trying to make, if you got the goodsyou don't need all of that stuff until it really counts, and that is not necessarily in youth travel ball. Everyone is different, some do need that to improve, others just have to pick up the ball or bat and know instinctively what it's all about.
JMO.
As to teh question asked, our youth travel ball was more of glorified rec ball, what exists today is completely differnt than back when he was in youth ball.
Yes, I do believe that he would be where he is because of his competitive nature and his love for the game, not because of the little travel ball he played back then.
Interestly enough, in HS, going into junior year, he was called and asked to play due to injured player on one of the best travel teams in the country. He said no, he much rather go on a summer vacation to the Hamptons with friends family and spend time at the beach (like we don't have that here). Was he worse off for not playing...absolutely no.
Entering HS, son was asked to play for one of the better fall travel teams in the area, he choose to play for another team with most of his friends. Was he worse off for not playinhg better competition, absolutely not. And even more, he passed up on playing for some of the better HS programs in HS, did it make a difference, no. He'd rather pitch against the best hitters than play with the best, makes sense to me!
Entering college was a whole different situation.
The point is, as I think that Daque is trying to make, if you got the goodsyou don't need all of that stuff until it really counts, and that is not necessarily in youth travel ball. Everyone is different, some do need that to improve, others just have to pick up the ball or bat and know instinctively what it's all about.
JMO.
You can banter this about all you like but the fact is the sooner you learn the better your odds are.
quote:his competitive nature and his love for the game
That would prevent him from playing rec ball for very long.
I agree, don't compare milb to youth sports, so let's not go there with senior leagues as well.
And let's not compare our players to what they did at 9-10 to what they are doing at 22-23, everyone is different as I have tried to point out. You do NOT necessarily need to have all of the skills you learn in youth baseball to succeed. You do need to learn how to compete, but that is with everything in life, isn't it?
And let's not compare our players to what they did at 9-10 to what they are doing at 22-23, everyone is different as I have tried to point out. You do NOT necessarily need to have all of the skills you learn in youth baseball to succeed. You do need to learn how to compete, but that is with everything in life, isn't it?
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:quote:his competitive nature and his love for the game
That would prevent him from playing rec ball for very long.
BHD,
What about all of the players that came before our sons that just played street ball, or no rec ball?
Did Greg Maddux play elite travel ball?
I do not disagree that better competition makes for a better player, but does it matter before you get to the 60/90 field?
I can't quite get my arms around the point to this whole thread. I'm sure all posters here in this thread had all their sons play beyond the rec season at some point up until they're 12 yrs old.
Up to 12, my son played rec, tried out and made the Ripken district all-star team that also played in open tournaments during the summer and Cooperstown at 12. Therefore, he played beyond rec ball, got good coaching and learned what it's like to play with and against ballplayers with advanced skills.
Is there any parent here who's kid played their 15 games of spring rec ball, did noting else baseball related until next spring, play more rec ball and then went on to play HS baseball?
I get the sense there isn't anyone here that has a kid who went this route. Is it possible? I suppose so but I doubt it.
My guess is the ones who have are the players who have that untapped talent and skills that could be refined. There aren't too many of those since these are athletes gifted with special tools who had no interest in playing organized baseball and one day just decided he wanted to try out for the HS team.
I would like to read a post from somebody who's kid did make their HS varsity team that played strictly rec ball.
Up to 12, my son played rec, tried out and made the Ripken district all-star team that also played in open tournaments during the summer and Cooperstown at 12. Therefore, he played beyond rec ball, got good coaching and learned what it's like to play with and against ballplayers with advanced skills.
Is there any parent here who's kid played their 15 games of spring rec ball, did noting else baseball related until next spring, play more rec ball and then went on to play HS baseball?
I get the sense there isn't anyone here that has a kid who went this route. Is it possible? I suppose so but I doubt it.
My guess is the ones who have are the players who have that untapped talent and skills that could be refined. There aren't too many of those since these are athletes gifted with special tools who had no interest in playing organized baseball and one day just decided he wanted to try out for the HS team.
I would like to read a post from somebody who's kid did make their HS varsity team that played strictly rec ball.
quote:Everyone is different, some do need that to improve, others just have to pick up the ball or bat and know instinctively what it's all about.
The ones that need youth travel ball to improve may survive one more year than they otherwise would have but that is about it. Travel ball can only accelerate the learned skills development but only to the level that innate ability will permit. By the time HS ball comes around the innate abilities are becoming pretty obvious and smoothed out. Somewhere around age 16 years predictions about future success becomes more accurate.
Playing travel or rec for fun is important so you can grow in skills anad the speed of the game. But on the small diamond adult observers should not expect a return on their investment. The players must prove themselves all over again when they step up onto the full sized diamond.
I am not disagreeing with BHD, he makes good points, I just don't see the benefit of playing travel ball for very young players. I don't think the discussion is about it in general other than it shoulod be fun, just if at young ages it actually will produce the results you want when thr player is getting ready for the recruiting process or the draft or for even making teh HS team. Daque is correct, there is a process where the herd becomes a bit thinner, and those with the physical and mental skills (not just the elite player) will move forward.
FWI, here is an interesting article I found, son played for Mike Roberts in HS, senior summer (it was the same team that he passed up the summer before). Great team, great man (tough as nails but loved those kids) who made sure his players were seen by the right people for their ability, not all players on son's team went onto play college ball, but most likely gained those life skills needed to survive at teh next level (in son's case college). I remember son's pitching coach saying if son could play for Mike he could play for anyone.
My point is, will these 9 year olds be playing in HS?
BTW, IS there such a thing as local rec ball anymore in most places?
http://www.travelballselect.co...w&id=2275&Itemid=189
FWI, here is an interesting article I found, son played for Mike Roberts in HS, senior summer (it was the same team that he passed up the summer before). Great team, great man (tough as nails but loved those kids) who made sure his players were seen by the right people for their ability, not all players on son's team went onto play college ball, but most likely gained those life skills needed to survive at teh next level (in son's case college). I remember son's pitching coach saying if son could play for Mike he could play for anyone.
My point is, will these 9 year olds be playing in HS?
BTW, IS there such a thing as local rec ball anymore in most places?
http://www.travelballselect.co...w&id=2275&Itemid=189
BOBBLE ... Why do you keep bringing a preteen conversation back to the D1 and pro level when what a kid does at the preteen level has NOTHING to do with making a high school, college or pro team? No one is scouting the 50/70 fields except 13U coaches. No high school, college or pro scout is creating a watch list because some preteen is crushing the ball or smoking hitters from the mound. Is rec baseball that bad in Canada to make you think the way you do?
The LL all-star team my son played on when he was eleven has three players committed to D1's. There were two 11's I suspect will also play D1. That's five D1 players from one LL all-star team.
The best player (biggest, fastest, strongest, big arm) on the team didn't make his high school baseball team. In fact, I never see his name in the paper in any sport. Seems he physically peaked at twelve.
How this team was mismanaged into not winning states and beyond is an amazing story of bad coaching and daddyball. However, the LL all-star team that won states has four potential D1 players.
I could say it was great development and training for my son to catch three developing, future D1 pitchers in LL all-stars. One was a teammate he caught all season. The thing is, my son hasn't caught since 13U. Besides, these pitchers weren't throwing 87-90+ with great movement in LL.
The LL all-star team my son played on when he was eleven has three players committed to D1's. There were two 11's I suspect will also play D1. That's five D1 players from one LL all-star team.
The best player (biggest, fastest, strongest, big arm) on the team didn't make his high school baseball team. In fact, I never see his name in the paper in any sport. Seems he physically peaked at twelve.
How this team was mismanaged into not winning states and beyond is an amazing story of bad coaching and daddyball. However, the LL all-star team that won states has four potential D1 players.
I could say it was great development and training for my son to catch three developing, future D1 pitchers in LL all-stars. One was a teammate he caught all season. The thing is, my son hasn't caught since 13U. Besides, these pitchers weren't throwing 87-90+ with great movement in LL.
If you think that where you end up has nothing to with what you do to lead up to it, you sure kidding yourself.
Keep spinning anecdotal garbage. Yes rec ball is that bad here and most states I have seen.
If the travel teams keep expending as they have it is obvious that the demand is there. I am sure that there are some sane parents involved.
Keep spinning anecdotal garbage. Yes rec ball is that bad here and most states I have seen.
If the travel teams keep expending as they have it is obvious that the demand is there. I am sure that there are some sane parents involved.
quote:The ones that need youth travel ball to improve may survive one more year than they otherwise would have but that is about it. Travel ball can only accelerate the learned skills development but only to the level that innate ability will permit. By the time HS ball comes around the innate abilities are becoming pretty obvious and smoothed out. Somewhere around age 16 years predictions about future success becomes more accurate.
Playing travel or rec for fun is important so you can grow in skills anad the speed of the game. But on the small diamond adult observers should not expect a return on their investment. The players must prove themselves all over again when they step up onto the full sized diamond.
Total garbage.
quote:I can't quite get my arms around the point to this whole thread. I'm sure all posters here in this thread had all their sons play beyond the rec season at some point up until they're 12 yrs old.
Up to 12, my son played rec, tried out and made the Ripken district all-star team that also played in open tournaments during the summer and Cooperstown at 12. Therefore, he played beyond rec ball, got good coaching and learned what it's like to play with and against ballplayers with advanced skills.
Is there any parent here who's kid played their 15 games of spring rec ball, did noting else baseball related until next spring, play more rec ball and then went on to play HS baseball?
I get the sense there isn't anyone here that has a kid who went this route. Is it possible? I suppose so but I doubt it.
My guess is the ones who have are the players who have that untapped talent and skills that could be refined. There aren't too many of those since these are athletes gifted with special tools who had no interest in playing organized baseball and one day just decided he wanted to try out for the HS team.
I would like to read a post from somebody who's kid did make their HS varsity team that played strictly rec ball.
I can't either.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
If you think that where you end up has nothing to with what you do to lead up to it, you sure kidding yourself.
Keep spinning anecdotal garbage. Yes rec ball is that bad here and most states I have seen.
If the travel teams keep expending as they have it is obvious that the demand is there. I am sure that there are some sane parents involved.
BHD,
You stated that rec ball is bad where you are, so geographically we have to take each thing into consideration.
quote:If the travel teams keep expending as they have it is obvious that the demand is there. I am sure that there are some sane parents involved.
TPM: I am aware that the quote above is not yours. But taking the astatement at face value, it would mean that there are more rec kids going to make travel teams. But in BHD's areaa, all rec teams suck. So this would mean that the quality of travel ball will go down. Well, in Canada that is. Of course, the lowly rec coaches would also be involved. What a dillema!
Fortunately, I do not have to read his ignorant and hateful diatribes anymore.
You can tell Daque our coaches are all level 2 certified and the travel teams have lost coaching and better player to the elite teams.
Originally elite teams were 18-19U now some have gone to 15U due to demand. The coaching is superior in most cases and usually pro old timers and pro scouts.
How can Daque draw conclusions with his under lying lack of experience in todays environment. I have watched as most have as showcases and elite teams have become the norm. We used to get 50-60 scouts at tournaments and now you are lucky to get a few.
I also resent his loftier than thou attitude toward parents who support their players by putting them in travel ball to give them a better chance at succeeding . In BB very few will go past HS, fewer past college and a minuscule number to MLB .
The one Bios I posted was a guy who was AAA and was MiLB pitcher of the year and he didn't make it. Hung Cho was arguably the best SS I ever watched who dropped out at AAA because he got tired of not advancing. Both these guys played organized travel ball before 10 yo.
Originally elite teams were 18-19U now some have gone to 15U due to demand. The coaching is superior in most cases and usually pro old timers and pro scouts.
How can Daque draw conclusions with his under lying lack of experience in todays environment. I have watched as most have as showcases and elite teams have become the norm. We used to get 50-60 scouts at tournaments and now you are lucky to get a few.
I also resent his loftier than thou attitude toward parents who support their players by putting them in travel ball to give them a better chance at succeeding . In BB very few will go past HS, fewer past college and a minuscule number to MLB .
The one Bios I posted was a guy who was AAA and was MiLB pitcher of the year and he didn't make it. Hung Cho was arguably the best SS I ever watched who dropped out at AAA because he got tired of not advancing. Both these guys played organized travel ball before 10 yo.
quote:What a dilemma!
Not a dilemma. More kids with potential signing up to play all levels of travel ball at all level. Rec coaches have to get certified and they have to show a level of knowledge to do so.
Most don't bother if their sons don't make a travel team. Many of out travel coaches don't have kids on teams anymore as they have graduated or stopped playing.
One team had Don Colpoys , Don Cageano and afew others . Colpoys was the longest reigning D1 coach at the time. Cageano was a pro coach who left in the spring. Both these gentlemen were in their 70s. Our winter workouts included instruction by pros.
The only conclusion that I can reach from what I read here is that the greatest baseball imaginable must be played in Canada and at the cheapest price. Who knew?
I have never seen anyone in the west play travel baseball for $300 to $500 per year (unless someone else picked up the tab, which I have also seen). And in fact, if paying for college is the goal, I don't know anyone who would be better off spending money on baseball because the amount spent exceeds the amount of nearly any baseball scholarship I have encountered (Stanford or USC and other similarly expensive schools excluded for very large grants -- and since I am paying about half-tuition to send my daughter to USC I have a great sense of the cost of the truly expensive schools). In the vast majority of instances, it would be better to save and invest the money spent on baseball.
In regard to what is garbage, Daque makes all the sense in the world to me. At a minimum, he has done nothing but state his opinion and does not deserve attack. I don't understand where your anger comes from, Bobblehead. Maybe Daque and I are both wrong, but this is from a guy (me) who has experienced every kind of travel baseball that exists (as a parent, coach and administrator) and who has not hesitated to spend many thousands of dollars in the process.
It is fun, but it is also unnecessary until the field gets bigger -- and not even required then, although at this point I am doing nothing other than repeat myself. Talent is the ultimate determining factor, followed by great coaching -- wherever it might be found and hard work).
But to each their own. What we are discussing here are many approaches -- and I have never known a single approach that is the correct one every time.
I have never seen anyone in the west play travel baseball for $300 to $500 per year (unless someone else picked up the tab, which I have also seen). And in fact, if paying for college is the goal, I don't know anyone who would be better off spending money on baseball because the amount spent exceeds the amount of nearly any baseball scholarship I have encountered (Stanford or USC and other similarly expensive schools excluded for very large grants -- and since I am paying about half-tuition to send my daughter to USC I have a great sense of the cost of the truly expensive schools). In the vast majority of instances, it would be better to save and invest the money spent on baseball.
In regard to what is garbage, Daque makes all the sense in the world to me. At a minimum, he has done nothing but state his opinion and does not deserve attack. I don't understand where your anger comes from, Bobblehead. Maybe Daque and I are both wrong, but this is from a guy (me) who has experienced every kind of travel baseball that exists (as a parent, coach and administrator) and who has not hesitated to spend many thousands of dollars in the process.
It is fun, but it is also unnecessary until the field gets bigger -- and not even required then, although at this point I am doing nothing other than repeat myself. Talent is the ultimate determining factor, followed by great coaching -- wherever it might be found and hard work).
But to each their own. What we are discussing here are many approaches -- and I have never known a single approach that is the correct one every time.
That is your travel teams which gave way to elite ball. Now $5000 to $10,000.
Did you watch Marcel at ASU. There were more just like him. He also played from an early age on travel teams.
I had a great return on my BB investment otherwise my son was staying here. We spent between 6 and 7 thousand since he was 9 yo.
Believe me I have no anger about this or any other topic I voice strong opinions about. What you call rec may be a high level ball under a misnomer. happen to live in a heavily populated area that provides high level sports especially in hockey and BB. Daque reveals a contempt to wards parents who wish to place their son's on travel teams and that is the basis of his idle musings. He in fact hijacked the thread with his garbage. The original thread was about good and bad experiences with travel ball. To me a mush more worthwhile topic.
Did you watch Marcel at ASU. There were more just like him. He also played from an early age on travel teams.
I had a great return on my BB investment otherwise my son was staying here. We spent between 6 and 7 thousand since he was 9 yo.
Believe me I have no anger about this or any other topic I voice strong opinions about. What you call rec may be a high level ball under a misnomer. happen to live in a heavily populated area that provides high level sports especially in hockey and BB. Daque reveals a contempt to wards parents who wish to place their son's on travel teams and that is the basis of his idle musings. He in fact hijacked the thread with his garbage. The original thread was about good and bad experiences with travel ball. To me a mush more worthwhile topic.
Is it a coincidence that we produce some of the top hockey players in the world ? That one of my son's female friends was the top D1 NCAA womens hockey players. It's no coincidence that we have athletes placed all over the USA in Hockey,Rowing, Basketball, Lacrosse volley ball, swimming and so on.
Could it be the early development of our athletes. Look at Russia and other power house countries. They develop their athletes an a very early age. They force their kids to excel.
Could it be the early development of our athletes. Look at Russia and other power house countries. They develop their athletes an a very early age. They force their kids to excel.
jemaz: I have blocked viewing posts from three members of this board, at least two of whom are Old Timers which I have concluded is like tenure. That is, it is based on time served rather than the quality of the posts.
I believe that one is so disappointed and angry that his son decided to hang it up. That reflects itself in his rigidity and unwillingness to consider opinions other than his own anad when he gets stuck he difts off topic. He does not accept the concept that innate ability trumps learned skills. So be it.
What amazes me is that coaches with common sense continue to communicate with him. His own mental health would have him ignore my posts but he just cannot help himself.
I know that Canada is different from main sream baseball in the US and perhaps that is a part of the misunderstanding. But them his inconsistancy of positions and failure to address issues raised in a direct manner is a hinderence to constructive communication.
I believe it was Mark Twain who said that he refrained from arguing with fools lest the bystanders could not tell which is the fool.
I imagine this will bring about another innane tirade which I also will not see.
I believe that one is so disappointed and angry that his son decided to hang it up. That reflects itself in his rigidity and unwillingness to consider opinions other than his own anad when he gets stuck he difts off topic. He does not accept the concept that innate ability trumps learned skills. So be it.
What amazes me is that coaches with common sense continue to communicate with him. His own mental health would have him ignore my posts but he just cannot help himself.
I know that Canada is different from main sream baseball in the US and perhaps that is a part of the misunderstanding. But them his inconsistancy of positions and failure to address issues raised in a direct manner is a hinderence to constructive communication.
I believe it was Mark Twain who said that he refrained from arguing with fools lest the bystanders could not tell which is the fool.
I imagine this will bring about another innane tirade which I also will not see.
quote:jemaz: I have blocked viewing posts from three members of this board, at least two of whom are Old Timers which I have concluded is like tenure. That is, it is based on time served rather than the quality of the posts.
I believe that one is so disappointed and angry that his son decided to hang it up. That reflects itself in his rigidity and unwillingness to consider opinions other than his own anad when he gets stuck he difts off topic. He does not accept the concept that innate ability trumps learned skills. So be it.
Another dumb comment.
Even the late great Chris O'Leary couldn't get me to push the ignore button.
Bobblehead:
Marcel failed to last the season at ASU and did not return this year. The Sun Devils ended their season two years ago with their former bullpen catcher at short, because, unfortunately, he was the best they had. If Marcel is the example, and no disrespect meant to him, then I would say definitely it does not matter much where a kid plays.
As far as elite ball and the other terms, at this point I have no idea what you mean. It is not that way here.
Marcel failed to last the season at ASU and did not return this year. The Sun Devils ended their season two years ago with their former bullpen catcher at short, because, unfortunately, he was the best they had. If Marcel is the example, and no disrespect meant to him, then I would say definitely it does not matter much where a kid plays.
As far as elite ball and the other terms, at this point I have no idea what you mean. It is not that way here.
Sorry Marcel was drafted.
And yet not a good point in support of your views. Lots of guys get drafted, including several I know who never played on any kind of high-level tournament team and some who actually got cut from their high school teams.
Spare me the buts, and I know guys who.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/...t=number&ft=CT&fv=CA
If Marcel didn't play last half it was becaise he had poor marks but I follwoed him and I didn't notice that.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/...t=number&ft=CT&fv=CA
If Marcel didn't play last half it was becaise he had poor marks but I follwoed him and I didn't notice that.
Here is another longtime poster's comment on Marcel and he saw him at ASU>.
Are you talking about SS Marcel Champagnie? That kid plays his position very well too, and he can flat out fly. Best I've seen in college for awhile.
My opening comment was.
My son's friend is hitting .431 and has a slugging % of 756 in his 1st season with ARS. Kid was always a tough out.
Great job.
Not sure you saw the same guy.
Are you talking about SS Marcel Champagnie? That kid plays his position very well too, and he can flat out fly. Best I've seen in college for awhile.
My opening comment was.
My son's friend is hitting .431 and has a slugging % of 756 in his 1st season with ARS. Kid was always a tough out.
Great job.
Not sure you saw the same guy.
BHD every area is different I am sure. Your experience tells you that it is critical. But that is based solely on your experience. Others base their opinions on their experiences.
I have a kid in the Majors that never played travel baseball. He played local rec league and then HS. He was drafted out of HS and reached the Majors. I have another that did not play travel he only played local rec ball. He was also drafted and has done very well and I expect one day to see him in the majors. I have had guys that played travel ball that have done very well also.
I have had several come into hs very well schooled in the fundementals of the game and advanced for their age. But their talent only took them as far as solid hs players. I have had guys come in very raw in their baseball skills but developed into outstanding baseball players and played at a high level after hs.
The most important years are the HS years when kids begin to develop physically and mentally. This is where the instruction , coaching , desire , work ethic come into play. Everything prior to these years is all well and good. But in the end the kids with the ability are going to win out , period.
That is my experience. Yours tells you something different. That means your right in your experience. My experiences tell me something totally different.
I have a kid in the Majors that never played travel baseball. He played local rec league and then HS. He was drafted out of HS and reached the Majors. I have another that did not play travel he only played local rec ball. He was also drafted and has done very well and I expect one day to see him in the majors. I have had guys that played travel ball that have done very well also.
I have had several come into hs very well schooled in the fundementals of the game and advanced for their age. But their talent only took them as far as solid hs players. I have had guys come in very raw in their baseball skills but developed into outstanding baseball players and played at a high level after hs.
The most important years are the HS years when kids begin to develop physically and mentally. This is where the instruction , coaching , desire , work ethic come into play. Everything prior to these years is all well and good. But in the end the kids with the ability are going to win out , period.
That is my experience. Yours tells you something different. That means your right in your experience. My experiences tell me something totally different.
Every team we played from NC was a travel team. I am sure some areas call it rec but they have great players. Our area the great players play travel and the rec guys are not even HS level. I think I was clear on that. I also understand the regional difference in the US I have been through many of the states over the years and have relatives in Atlanta, Marblehead with cousins who have attended colleges in several states. Have traveled extensively through Texas California, New York, PA Jersey and many other states.
We have played US teams for years from an early age. We never played a rec team. They were all travel and Legion teams.
If rec is so wonderful in some areas what do the kids play that just want to play for fun ? Ours play rec.
I suppose you are going to tell me the Dirt Bags are a rec team.
Is this what you look for ?
Understand that our team competes against the top teams in the country. We are only looking for top-shelf players who can compete at a very high level to be a part of our team. By filling out and sending in this form, you are expressing a genuine interest in playing for The Dirtbags and you are requesting our staff to consider you for our team. Please understand, with the volume of requests we receive, we are unable to answer each questionnaire individually. Thank you for your interest in DIRTBAG BASEBALL!
We have played US teams for years from an early age. We never played a rec team. They were all travel and Legion teams.
If rec is so wonderful in some areas what do the kids play that just want to play for fun ? Ours play rec.
I suppose you are going to tell me the Dirt Bags are a rec team.
Is this what you look for ?
Understand that our team competes against the top teams in the country. We are only looking for top-shelf players who can compete at a very high level to be a part of our team. By filling out and sending in this form, you are expressing a genuine interest in playing for The Dirtbags and you are requesting our staff to consider you for our team. Please understand, with the volume of requests we receive, we are unable to answer each questionnaire individually. Thank you for your interest in DIRTBAG BASEBALL!
Yes we look for players that we feel can compete at a very high level. We invite them to tryout and we evaluate them. We scout HS games etc and we try to find the best we can find.
These are HS aged kids. These are not youth players.
These are HS aged kids. These are not youth players.
I have seen many travel "youth" and showcase "hs" teams that were nothing more than rec teams. And I am seeing more and more of them.
Its not where your at as much as it is what your doing where you are.
Its not where your at as much as it is what your doing where you are.
What age do you recruit ?
My point is that you have to start early to be able to play at at a high level.
My point is that you have to start early to be able to play at at a high level.
Adam Loewen got a 7.2 million dollar deal right out of HS at 17. Do you think he pitched rec ball ?
Bobble we used to field a rising jr team and a rising sr team. Now we field a rising fr and soph team as well. I coach one of the teams and move around at times filling in for other coaches. I evaluate and scout for players as well.
I am not a big fan of showcase for these younger guys. I think they would be much better served getting more instruction at an earlier age and play some. Vs getting tons of games and very little instruction time. But thats just me.
There are two things I think are critical for young baseball players. Throwing mechanics and hitting mechanics. I have seen kids that I believe could have been very good but they were taught some things that they could not unlearn. They just never could recover from it. I have also seen some kids that got good solid coaching in hitting and throwing mechanics at a young age and it really helped them down the road. I would much rather have a kid that was never taught one thing about hitting or throwing coming into hs than get a kid that was taught very well how to do it very wrong.
There is no doubt that a kid that gets good coaching and instruction at a young age and plays against good competition at young age has a big advantage over their competition when they get in HS. But I have seen travel coaches that were clowns. All they did was pick the best players at 10 and roll out the bats and balls and kick the s@it out of everyone. Then every year they "upgraded" by picking up the next stud and dropping the guys that didnt improve. By the time the kids go to HS none of them were at an advantage.
Your right in my opinion that good coaching and competition at a younger age helps a great deal. But there are many that over come poor baseball situations when they get to HS. And there are many that find themselves in a bad HS situation and are doomed.
Parents that take a role when they see their kid loves the game at a young age and help guide them in the right direction and situation help their kids alot. But in the end they still have to develop , work hard , develop a work ethic and have talent.
I have always been one that believed I could take a poor player and help him become average. An average player and help him become good. A good player and help him become very good. And a great player was just a great player. I do all I can not to mess that kid up.
I am not a big fan of showcase for these younger guys. I think they would be much better served getting more instruction at an earlier age and play some. Vs getting tons of games and very little instruction time. But thats just me.
There are two things I think are critical for young baseball players. Throwing mechanics and hitting mechanics. I have seen kids that I believe could have been very good but they were taught some things that they could not unlearn. They just never could recover from it. I have also seen some kids that got good solid coaching in hitting and throwing mechanics at a young age and it really helped them down the road. I would much rather have a kid that was never taught one thing about hitting or throwing coming into hs than get a kid that was taught very well how to do it very wrong.
There is no doubt that a kid that gets good coaching and instruction at a young age and plays against good competition at young age has a big advantage over their competition when they get in HS. But I have seen travel coaches that were clowns. All they did was pick the best players at 10 and roll out the bats and balls and kick the s@it out of everyone. Then every year they "upgraded" by picking up the next stud and dropping the guys that didnt improve. By the time the kids go to HS none of them were at an advantage.
Your right in my opinion that good coaching and competition at a younger age helps a great deal. But there are many that over come poor baseball situations when they get to HS. And there are many that find themselves in a bad HS situation and are doomed.
Parents that take a role when they see their kid loves the game at a young age and help guide them in the right direction and situation help their kids alot. But in the end they still have to develop , work hard , develop a work ethic and have talent.
I have always been one that believed I could take a poor player and help him become average. An average player and help him become good. A good player and help him become very good. And a great player was just a great player. I do all I can not to mess that kid up.
Bobble do you think that travel baseball makes the kids talented? Or could it be they were selected to play because they were already more talented than the others?
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
You can banter this about all you like but the fact is the sooner you learn the better your odds are.
My question regarding this statement would be...
The sooner you start learning what?
quote:
Is there any parent here who's kid played their 15 games of spring rec ball, did noting else baseball related until next spring, play more rec ball and then went on to play HS baseball?
I get the sense there isn't anyone here that has a kid who went this route. Is it possible? I suppose so but I doubt it.
I would like to read a post from somebody who's kid did make their HS varsity team that played strictly rec ball.
This is exactly what Zack has done.
I wouldn't say he did nothing else baseball related as he works year round. But he has never played travel ball.
quote:There are two things I think are critical for young baseball players. Throwing mechanics and hitting mechanics. I have seen kids that I believe could have been very good but they were taught some things that they could not unlearn. They just never could recover from it. I have also seen some kids that got good solid coaching in hitting and throwing mechanics at a young age and it really helped them down the road. I would much rather have a kid that was never taught one thing about hitting or throwing coming into hs than get a kid that was taught very well how to do it very wrong.
This is exactly what I was saying. My son never showcased and received several offers off a DVD I made of him mostly at 17.
I would add footwork and balance which I think are the most important things. I have also seen kids who can't un learn bad habits.
We used to get high level fast ball players who really struggled to convert to BB.
The original post was about good and bad in travel ball and not travel vs rec and the early development being unnecessary.
quote:Bobble do you think that travel baseball makes the kids talented? Or could it be they were selected to play because they were already more talented than the others?
Coaches need the talented players who he can they can teach to play and execute properly.
I used my son's BKTB coach as an example.
For a few years his HS team traveled to Vegas to play a couple tournaments in Arizona. It was a 4A school and we beat the regularly. The coach retired here and was hired by the team in Arizona. They had the same players as it was his 1st year there. He coached the team to their 1st state championship in 50 years. They held a ticker tape parade for him and the team.
So a great coach can take a bunch of talented team and turn them into a great team.
I once saw a hockey player when I was at college. He was from Boston. He had more natural talent than almost any hockey player I ever saw. He was exciting to watch. He failed because he couldn't be coach at the JR A level. He was the product of poor coaching. I saw him do things you wouldn't believe. He scored 2 goals against the Russian Nats while he was upside down after leaping over the 2 defense men. I saw him score 9 goals in a JR A game to break Sil Apps record the OHA. He also broke every rule and was passed around from team to team. Always suspended. He was so good they gave him a shot in the NHL and he was unable to play as a team player. He only lasted a few games.
A good coach can bring out the best in a player but they need something to work with.
quote:The sooner you start learning what?
You shouln't have to ask that. If you have seen a truely great coach with years of MLB experience your mouth would drop at what you don't know.
Jeesh BHD, why do you always have to one up telling us about all the players you know who got drafted all the important people you knew in baseball, etc. etc.
I don't think that Daque went off topic, it did when we began hearing about how good canadian sports is.
I don't think that Daque went off topic, it did when we began hearing about how good canadian sports is.
One thing I learned over the years that all players even the great ones need great coaching. Slumps can be mechanical and mental. Good coaches help the player work through the issues but that means they have to recognize the issues.
My son would stray and I was always videoing him and was able to correct issues. When he went to college in SC he had a great P coach the 1st year and he had a very strong year except for 1 inning. The 2nd year he was on track to be the ace of the team. His P coach lacked knowledge but didn't mess with him. He was a great guy. My son's mechanics started to slip and I never saw him until the spring when they started streaming. What I saw was a guy who had completely lost everything he was taught. The summer after his JR year he came home and I spend a few minutes with him and he was back on track. He had started to have some mild shoulder issues but the correction alleviated it for the time being.
He had a great fall and started well in the spring and then the bad habits started to come back and things went down hill. 3 weeks before the end of his final season he told his Mom that he hoped his shoulder held up. He didn't want to stop playing . I was furious when I found out but he wanted to finish the season.
Coaching is very important and so is a talented player. It is never one without the other.
My son would stray and I was always videoing him and was able to correct issues. When he went to college in SC he had a great P coach the 1st year and he had a very strong year except for 1 inning. The 2nd year he was on track to be the ace of the team. His P coach lacked knowledge but didn't mess with him. He was a great guy. My son's mechanics started to slip and I never saw him until the spring when they started streaming. What I saw was a guy who had completely lost everything he was taught. The summer after his JR year he came home and I spend a few minutes with him and he was back on track. He had started to have some mild shoulder issues but the correction alleviated it for the time being.
He had a great fall and started well in the spring and then the bad habits started to come back and things went down hill. 3 weeks before the end of his final season he told his Mom that he hoped his shoulder held up. He didn't want to stop playing . I was furious when I found out but he wanted to finish the season.
Coaching is very important and so is a talented player. It is never one without the other.
TPM I won't even answer that.
BHD,
Without a doubt pitchers need constant attention, sometimes they have no clue when their mechanics go haywire and also need mental support of those with more experience in overcoming failure in a game, especially when trying to stay focused while battling a chronic condition that doesn't seem to go away, one of the reasons why son was sent down, his pitching coach, Dennis Martinez works very hard with him (BHD, I am doing some name dropping) trying to find a balance between comfort and staying with his mechanics until the season ends.
But, here is the BIG but, this has nothing to do with this topic.
Without a doubt pitchers need constant attention, sometimes they have no clue when their mechanics go haywire and also need mental support of those with more experience in overcoming failure in a game, especially when trying to stay focused while battling a chronic condition that doesn't seem to go away, one of the reasons why son was sent down, his pitching coach, Dennis Martinez works very hard with him (BHD, I am doing some name dropping) trying to find a balance between comfort and staying with his mechanics until the season ends.
But, here is the BIG but, this has nothing to do with this topic.
We actually agree on something.
Can I help it I know a lot of people and have done a lot of things in my life. We haven't even touched on the music industry. I guess that is irrelevant and such a long time ago.
Recurring injuries are tough. Another friend is going through the same thing. After making the 40 man roster and being traded, he has a shoulder issue that has side lined him.
We get hundreds of ex pros through that SR league that I posted. Many got to AAA and did very well just to get sent home.
Can I help it I know a lot of people and have done a lot of things in my life. We haven't even touched on the music industry. I guess that is irrelevant and such a long time ago.
Recurring injuries are tough. Another friend is going through the same thing. After making the 40 man roster and being traded, he has a shoulder issue that has side lined him.
We get hundreds of ex pros through that SR league that I posted. Many got to AAA and did very well just to get sent home.
yeah we know a lot of people, so do others, it's just not relevant to this topic.
Got that?
Got that?
No.
The OP wrote a very good synopsis concerning his son's journey in his journey through youth baseball. He was involved in rec and travel and admonished parents to check out any team ahead of time to have the best chances of a good fit. He credits travel as best preparing his son for his progress up the ladder but concedes that nothing replaces natural ability. Additionally, he comments on the role of tutoring and show cases.
In summary, he shares his personal experiences. His belief that natural abilility coupled with travel ball was the best way to move up the ladder for his son.
His post is worth reading again for anyone facing these issues who has a young son who shows a real interest in the game beyond what the rec experience can offer. While one size does not fit all, it appears that the choices he made for his son were the right ones.
As the string moves along contrasting views as to the value and importance of travel ball emerged and success stories were shared from posters playing rec, travel, and a combination of the two. Geographical and local leadersip are important factors to take into consideration when choosing from the available options.
I comment on this because sometimes the original post gets lost and, in my opinion, it is a very valuable commentary.
In summary, he shares his personal experiences. His belief that natural abilility coupled with travel ball was the best way to move up the ladder for his son.
His post is worth reading again for anyone facing these issues who has a young son who shows a real interest in the game beyond what the rec experience can offer. While one size does not fit all, it appears that the choices he made for his son were the right ones.
As the string moves along contrasting views as to the value and importance of travel ball emerged and success stories were shared from posters playing rec, travel, and a combination of the two. Geographical and local leadersip are important factors to take into consideration when choosing from the available options.
I comment on this because sometimes the original post gets lost and, in my opinion, it is a very valuable commentary.
There was an interesting quote in one of the myriad Strasburg articles in yesterday's Post; I should have kept it. Something about Strasburg not being "one of those travel ball kids" who was destined for injury and a short career.
Travel ball has no lock on conributing to youth arm injuries. The half hearted changes in pitching regulations made by LL, Inc. and then trashing them for tournament play ratings is beyond the pale.
Be it rec or travel, overuse is overuse. Many an arm is ruined in youth ball and the wheels just don't fall off until HS or college.
Be it rec or travel, overuse is overuse. Many an arm is ruined in youth ball and the wheels just don't fall off until HS or college.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
You can banter this about all you like but the fact is the sooner you learn the better your odds are.
Just gonna ask again...
The sooner you learn what?
I contacted a former collegiate summer ball teammate who's now a college head coach. He's coached his program to a national championship. His son plays pro ball. I asked him what effect he thinks preteen ball has on playing high school or college ball.
His response was "Absolutely none at all." Then he reminded me of a conversation we had a little over a week ago. He said my son would be a significantly different player his junior year from his sophomore year based on physical development and advanced coaching. "Therefore, why would what he did in LL or travel at that age matter?"
His response was "Absolutely none at all." Then he reminded me of a conversation we had a little over a week ago. He said my son would be a significantly different player his junior year from his sophomore year based on physical development and advanced coaching. "Therefore, why would what he did in LL or travel at that age matter?"
quote:There was an interesting quote in one of the myriad Strasburg articles in yesterday's Post; I should have kept it. Something about Strasburg not being "one of those travel ball kids" who was destined for injury and a short career.
LHPMom,
Of course, I believe that was written. Problem is, it's not true! At least, the part about travel ball.
He played for the Braves Scout Team in the WWBA Championship at Jupiter Florida October 2005. He also played for the "San Diego Show" Travel Team in the 18U National Championship Marietta Georgia July 2006.
Being from Santee California and playing with teams entered in tournaments in Georgia and Florida would be called "travel ball" IMO.
I'm guessing "wasn't one of those travel kids" means "wasn't a travel ball lifer from the preteen years."quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:There was an interesting quote in one of the myriad Strasburg articles in yesterday's Post; I should have kept it. Something about Strasburg not being "one of those travel ball kids" who was destined for injury and a short career.
LHPMom,
Of course, I believe that was written. Problem is, it's not true! At least, the part about travel ball.
He played for the Braves Scout Team in the WWBA Championship at Jupiter Florida October 2005. He also played for the "San Diego Show" Travel Team in the 18U National Championship Marietta Georgia July 2006.
Being from Santee California and playing with teams entered in tournaments in Georgia and Florida would be called "travel ball" IMO.
My son has played travel ball since he was about 10 years old. He also played little league and loved every minute of it. He played travel ball because he wanted to play more baseball and the competition of travel ball was very good. I absolutely believe that travel ball better prepared my son for high school than rec ball would have. Because of the competition he faced in travel ball, he was pretty much ready for high school ball when he tried out as a freshman. He has also made a lot of friends through travel baseball.
I completely agree with you. But the argument in this thread is the value of preteen travel ball. My son played LL and travel from age nine. But I don't fell 9U-12U travel had anything to do with where he is now. 13U and 14U had a lot to do with it.quote:I absolutely believe that travel ball better prepared my son for high school than rec ball would have. Because of the competition he faced in travel ball, he was pretty much ready for high school ball when he tried out as a freshman.
One person has chosen to deviate from the original post. He arguing travel ball is absolutely necessary in the preteen years or a kid doesn't have a chance at travel ball in the teen years, high school and college ball.
Here's the quote. It's from Scott Boras:
"His arm also has very little wear and tear. He was not precocious like Ben McDonald at age 12. Stephen is not a 'travel ball' guy with a lot of innings. He developed late and then fast [in college]."
I thought it was interesting because it made me wonder if there's now an impression in professional baseball that players who've pitched in travel programs since training wheels are used goods.
"His arm also has very little wear and tear. He was not precocious like Ben McDonald at age 12. Stephen is not a 'travel ball' guy with a lot of innings. He developed late and then fast [in college]."
I thought it was interesting because it made me wonder if there's now an impression in professional baseball that players who've pitched in travel programs since training wheels are used goods.
Original post. The good and the bad about travel ball.
Not the value of preteen involvement in travel ball. No wonder this argument has gotten off track.
The poster who took it there was Daque who seems to have softened his view.
RJM how do you judge the contribution of travel when your son played both ?
Not the value of preteen involvement in travel ball. No wonder this argument has gotten off track.
The poster who took it there was Daque who seems to have softened his view.
RJM how do you judge the contribution of travel when your son played both ?
LHPMOM I can ssure you that the majority of pro ball players in the last 15 years played some form of allstar /travel ball as a pre teen. Good travel teams do not abuse arms and you should o your homework before you sign with any team. Our travel teams had pitch and inning restrictions until minor bantam
I was just watching a 13U tournament that my son played in at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto. That tournament features 32 teams of 12-13 years old and the tournament is 53 years old. They used to post a long list of kids who played in it who went on to pro ball. They are all polished travel players. These kids are amazing to watch. Some come from organizations that have 5-6 thousand players registered.
http://www.theex.com/whatson.php?menu=01:13:01
I was just watching a 13U tournament that my son played in at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto. That tournament features 32 teams of 12-13 years old and the tournament is 53 years old. They used to post a long list of kids who played in it who went on to pro ball. They are all polished travel players. These kids are amazing to watch. Some come from organizations that have 5-6 thousand players registered.
http://www.theex.com/whatson.php?menu=01:13:01
BHD, you are now lumping in rec all stars with travel. It seems your stance is softening.
Rec all stars is rec. LL all stars could be as few as two games if the team losses those first two games. I do not consider rec all stars as travel baseball. If a kid plays only rec and all stars he is a rec player. Exactly what my son did through 12 years old and it didn't hinder him whatsoever.
Rec all stars is rec. LL all stars could be as few as two games if the team losses those first two games. I do not consider rec all stars as travel baseball. If a kid plays only rec and all stars he is a rec player. Exactly what my son did through 12 years old and it didn't hinder him whatsoever.
quote:BHD, you are now lumping in rec all stars with travel. It seems your stance is softening.
Could you explain that. There is no chance in H
Travel ball after hitting the full sized field is a great asset to those players with the innate ability to go on in the game. Otherwise it is like putting jet fuel into your lawn mower.
Does playing against top competition improve a ball player? Only if he has the ability to do the same things he has observed. However, even an average player can learn the nuances of the game.
Does playing against top competition improve a ball player? Only if he has the ability to do the same things he has observed. However, even an average player can learn the nuances of the game.
BHD, I think this explains where you lump them together:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
LHPMOM I can ssure you that the majority of pro ball players in the last 15 years played some form of allstar /travel ball as a pre teen. Good travel teams do not abuse arms and you should o your homework before you sign with any team. Our travel teams had pitch and inning restrictions until minor bantam
I was just watching a 13U tournament that my son played in at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto. That tournament features 32 teams of 12-13 years old and the tournament is 53 years old. They used to post a long list of kids who played in it who went on to pro ball. They are all polished travel players. These kids are amazing to watch. Some come from organizations that have 5-6 thousand players registered.
[
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
LHPMOM I can ssure you that the majority of pro ball players in the last 15 years played some form of allstar /travel ball as a pre teen. Good travel teams do not abuse arms and you should o your homework before you sign with any team. Our travel teams had pitch and inning restrictions until minor bantam
I was just watching a 13U tournament that my son played in at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto. That tournament features 32 teams of 12-13 years old and the tournament is 53 years old. They used to post a long list of kids who played in it who went on to pro ball. They are all polished travel players. These kids are amazing to watch. Some come from organizations that have 5-6 thousand players registered.
[
I not sure I see your point. That line refers to allstar teams which here are travel teams that pick the best players from travel teams. I think you must define your terms. Here allstar teams are travel teams. These were the best teams available as my son grew up at 9-15yo. Now due to demand the elite teams have started to offer young teams at the 12-13yo level. The tournament at the CNE is the best players and are all travel teams. Rec teams would be crushed and mercied in every game.
BHD, I think it's a matter of definition. Around here (I don't live far from ECB), travel teams generally do not play in a local league. There are a couple of "travel leagues" where teams form and play teams from other towns, but they also play in tournaments all over. The "league" games they do play are not on any kind of schedule like a normal LL or Cal Ripken league or even a town sponsored league. The coaches get together and make the schedule on their own. These are independent leagues put together so different "travel teams" can play each other during the week or when they don't have a tournament on the weekends. There are no all-star teams coming out of this since all teams are independent travel teams.
Most of the "travel teams" are formed and participate in tournaments only. You might even classify them as tournament teams. They don't have to be "elite" because there are all level of teams from "elite" to "A" teams. If the rec leagues around here formed all-star teams, they would get whooped because virtually all the more talented kids are playing on the independent travel teams.
Just at ECB alone, there are between 8-10 travel teams per age group. There are probably another 20 (at least) teams per age group available in the Metro Atlanta area. Really, it is not even that special to be playing on a travel team around here anymore - or even at ECB. If you are one of the better players in the area, you have to know which teams are the better teams and try to get on one of them. If you're not careful, an "elite" player could wind up on a very bad travel team. Probably wouldn't happen, but you do have to be selective of where you go. A lot of recruiting going on for the better players in the Metro Atlanta area.
Anyway, I think the definitions of what we are talking about may be different.
Most of the "travel teams" are formed and participate in tournaments only. You might even classify them as tournament teams. They don't have to be "elite" because there are all level of teams from "elite" to "A" teams. If the rec leagues around here formed all-star teams, they would get whooped because virtually all the more talented kids are playing on the independent travel teams.
Just at ECB alone, there are between 8-10 travel teams per age group. There are probably another 20 (at least) teams per age group available in the Metro Atlanta area. Really, it is not even that special to be playing on a travel team around here anymore - or even at ECB. If you are one of the better players in the area, you have to know which teams are the better teams and try to get on one of them. If you're not careful, an "elite" player could wind up on a very bad travel team. Probably wouldn't happen, but you do have to be selective of where you go. A lot of recruiting going on for the better players in the Metro Atlanta area.
Anyway, I think the definitions of what we are talking about may be different.
BBMan yours sound similar to here. The only difference is we call our travel team allstar teams. Every every player in the city organization can play rec but before rec starts they can tryout for the city allstar team. If they make it they bypass rec ball. Those who don't make the AAA team go back to rec.
Elite teams like EC developed here about 15 to 20 years ago. They are private as well and usually have a short season and like you said the mainly practice and travel to tournaments. They play or practice all year long. It is the highest level ball.
Our rec program has a short season compared to both levels of travel ball. They have an opening and closing tournament which can be fun to watch if you can take the skill level. They tried to form a select team to play other selects from surrounding rec teams but there wasn't enough interest. The rec teams a couple years ago had to go interlock which means they travel short distances to play. This is because enrollment has dwindled. The talent level is poor but they have fun so I can't knock it. They wouldn't make it through 1 inning against the 2 travel levels.
So yes it is a matter of terminology.
Elite teams like EC developed here about 15 to 20 years ago. They are private as well and usually have a short season and like you said the mainly practice and travel to tournaments. They play or practice all year long. It is the highest level ball.
Our rec program has a short season compared to both levels of travel ball. They have an opening and closing tournament which can be fun to watch if you can take the skill level. They tried to form a select team to play other selects from surrounding rec teams but there wasn't enough interest. The rec teams a couple years ago had to go interlock which means they travel short distances to play. This is because enrollment has dwindled. The talent level is poor but they have fun so I can't knock it. They wouldn't make it through 1 inning against the 2 travel levels.
So yes it is a matter of terminology.
The travel ball my son played at 9U and 10U was community based. It was the same as rec all-stars. At 11U and 12U we put together a fifteen man roster of prospective LL all-stars to get them accustomed to all-star level competition on a weekly basis. It paid off. The all-star team played into August twice.quote:RJM how do you judge the contribution of travel when your son played both ?
So, it certainly wasn't about the competition over rec all-stars. That leaves 46/60 closed bases versus 50/70 open bases. Personally I believe open bases is a distraction for a lot of preteens. Pitchers have to concern themselves with baserunners rather than focus on pitching fundamentals. The only thing preventing a constant track meet was pitchers getting hitters out.
I'm not buying the value of a preteen pitcher learning a move to first. When I got to college my move sucked. Why? I didn't deal with many base runners in high school and Legion ball. That's the way it is with a lot of quality high school pitchers. I still see the same thing today with travel ball.
Travel is travel. It doesn't matter why you do it. Going across the street or across the country is the same thing. You are playing more ball to improve your kids skills.
It doesn't matter if you are doing it to get a better LL AS team, get ready for HS, or if you think your kid will be in MLB some day. Playing outside of rec is for improving your child to the best of his abilities. How far he will go is determined by a couple of hundred different factors.
I personally think that learning skills early and correctly is a great advantage, others think it doesn't matter. My son will be competing against other players who have had this advantage. The best thing is that it is fun and we both love it. I wouldn't trade the memories and experiences for anything.
Another aspect of travel is the fact that kids can't just go to the park or school or street and play if they want to do it. Try finding 8 other families of 10 year olds that will let their kids disappear for a day of ball. It isn't going to happen anymore. If your kid wants to play, travel is the only way it is going to happen.
It doesn't matter if you are doing it to get a better LL AS team, get ready for HS, or if you think your kid will be in MLB some day. Playing outside of rec is for improving your child to the best of his abilities. How far he will go is determined by a couple of hundred different factors.
I personally think that learning skills early and correctly is a great advantage, others think it doesn't matter. My son will be competing against other players who have had this advantage. The best thing is that it is fun and we both love it. I wouldn't trade the memories and experiences for anything.
Another aspect of travel is the fact that kids can't just go to the park or school or street and play if they want to do it. Try finding 8 other families of 10 year olds that will let their kids disappear for a day of ball. It isn't going to happen anymore. If your kid wants to play, travel is the only way it is going to happen.
At 9U and 10U travel was nothing more than playing more than eighteen rec games. It allowed my son to play six more weeks after mid June. The kids were all from the same town. We never played more than two games in a day. It never involved a full day commitment. Tournaments were all within ten miles. At 11U and 12U it was to make the kids sharper for all-stars. It worked. It was only a Sunday doubleheader league. It took up a Sunday afternoon.quote:Playing outside of rec is for improving your child to the best of his abilities.
From the 9U/10U program there's one high school varsity player even though this team won most of it's games. From the 11U/12U program there are three additional high school varsity players from similar results.
There's absolutely nothing anyone can say to convince me preteen travel matters. I can't find a high school or college coach who says it matters. The best I've heard is some kids are learning better fundamentals earlier. But that's a function of the coaching, not the level of preteen ball.
quote:The best I've heard is some kids are learning better fundamentals earlier.
The key word is earlier. An earlier start does not equate to advanced skills beyond a late starter down the line assuming equal innate abilities.
In baseball and softball I've seen kids purchase skills at a training facility. The reason I say "purchased" is learning earlier placed them temporarily ahead of other players. But many of these kids hit the wall when they got older. As kids physically matured these kids just didn't have the talent to compete.
Why do most of the best hockey players come from Canada and places like Russia Sweden etc? It is because they have organized hockey from a very young age.
RJM why did you put your son in what you call allstar ? The best players of the local rec kids ? Well what we call allstar is the best kids and it is separate from rec.
You are obviously in an area that doesn't have the population to play on travel teams.
Someone can tell Daque our elite teams play by American League rules starting at 15.
RJM why did you put your son in what you call allstar ? The best players of the local rec kids ? Well what we call allstar is the best kids and it is separate from rec.
You are obviously in an area that doesn't have the population to play on travel teams.
Someone can tell Daque our elite teams play by American League rules starting at 15.
Lets quit comparing kids who don't have the talent to play with kids who do have the talent to play.
Two kids with talent, one has better skills, who is going to play?
And I have seen plenty of average talent kids in HS outplay kids who have better potential,talent. Their skill level and work ethic put them way past the talented kids. Who doesn't love the s c r a p p e r who has the dirtiest uniform? Now put that same type of kid, the dirty one, into a talented kids body. That is what you get with travel at a high level. Even the most talented kids have had to bust their hineys. They have the skills, motivation, talent from succeeding at a high level and they know how to play the game.
That is why you start early and get the best of travel. I just don't see any kids like that in Rec. I see them every tournament in travel.
Two kids with talent, one has better skills, who is going to play?
And I have seen plenty of average talent kids in HS outplay kids who have better potential,talent. Their skill level and work ethic put them way past the talented kids. Who doesn't love the s c r a p p e r who has the dirtiest uniform? Now put that same type of kid, the dirty one, into a talented kids body. That is what you get with travel at a high level. Even the most talented kids have had to bust their hineys. They have the skills, motivation, talent from succeeding at a high level and they know how to play the game.
That is why you start early and get the best of travel. I just don't see any kids like that in Rec. I see them every tournament in travel.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about. I live one of the larger major metropolitan areas. There are several major showcase teams within an hour that if I mentioned their names, any knowledgeable person (PG, TR, etc) would know who they are. There's a ridiculous number of 13U to 15U teams. There's just a sanity in the area regarding preteen ball. There are travel teams. But LL and Ripken take priority.quote:You are obviously in an area that doesn't have the population to play on travel teams.
You guys are just arguiing for the sake of arguing. As I stated I'm not moving on my stance. I have NEVER heard a high school or college coach give any creedence to preteen travel ball. A few have laughed when I asked.
There was a pro scout at my son's practice last night. He's a former D1 coach. When I asked him he advised I not ask the question if I want to be considered a knowledgeable parent.
There was a pro scout at my son's practice last night. He's a former D1 coach. When I asked him he advised I not ask the question if I want to be considered a knowledgeable parent.
Answer this question. Why is every kid at my sons HS a travel kid? Fresh, JV and V. Why when we play the scout teams or go see them play, all of the kids we know are travel kids? I would be willing to bet that the kids we don't know are from other parts of the state. But are probably still travel kids.
RJM I agree with you.....but I also think you would agree that playing travel before age 13 certainly can't hurt.
Playing with biger fields/base paths, open bases and learning how to take a lead and keep runners from leading, playing stonger comepetion ( the number 8 hole hitter on many travel teams are the #4 hitter on the local rec team) and hiting against better competetion certainly can hurt one's development.
It looks like my son followed a very simliar path to your son...played both Little league and "township" travel ball before age 13...then once he got to the bigger field he played for a regional tavel team.
His freshman year he was a JV starter for his High school team and in his sophmore year was a picher/1b starter for his varsity team. He plays for a 4A high school.
I would not try to tell anyone that the time he had playing travel before age 13 had anything to do with his success so far in high school.
So would I agree that the pre teen ages should be about developing the love for the game and the basic's...they can get this in many different ways.....
I do think playing some level of travel before age 13 does help keep the interest level higher due to the above mentioned factors ( taking leadings etc)
Which might help us from losing kids to the L-Word?
Playing with biger fields/base paths, open bases and learning how to take a lead and keep runners from leading, playing stonger comepetion ( the number 8 hole hitter on many travel teams are the #4 hitter on the local rec team) and hiting against better competetion certainly can hurt one's development.
It looks like my son followed a very simliar path to your son...played both Little league and "township" travel ball before age 13...then once he got to the bigger field he played for a regional tavel team.
His freshman year he was a JV starter for his High school team and in his sophmore year was a picher/1b starter for his varsity team. He plays for a 4A high school.
I would not try to tell anyone that the time he had playing travel before age 13 had anything to do with his success so far in high school.
So would I agree that the pre teen ages should be about developing the love for the game and the basic's...they can get this in many different ways.....
I do think playing some level of travel before age 13 does help keep the interest level higher due to the above mentioned factors ( taking leadings etc)
Which might help us from losing kids to the L-Word?
dad43: Let's agree that better kids are attracted to travel. I agree that it can't hurt to play travel assuming overuse is not an issue. And playing against better competition can give an aspiring player an edge for a while. I also believe that a travel player and a rec player with equal innate abilities will be pretty much on a par after one year on the full sized diamond.
One value of travel is that it should, in theory, force a better work ethic and technique refinement from kids who have had it too easy with success in rec.
Another value, rarely seen in either rec or travel is development of the mental side of the game and a passion for the game.
The differnce maker going into HS will end up being innate ability which, after the first year, will trump acquired skills. Moving up the ladder from there will be the mental side of the game since everyone will have sufficient innate ability and skills to go on.
As I said ad nauseum, players with better innate abilities will be attracted to travel but it is not travel that gives them the better innate abilities.
One value of travel is that it should, in theory, force a better work ethic and technique refinement from kids who have had it too easy with success in rec.
Another value, rarely seen in either rec or travel is development of the mental side of the game and a passion for the game.
The differnce maker going into HS will end up being innate ability which, after the first year, will trump acquired skills. Moving up the ladder from there will be the mental side of the game since everyone will have sufficient innate ability and skills to go on.
As I said ad nauseum, players with better innate abilities will be attracted to travel but it is not travel that gives them the better innate abilities.
quote:As I said ad nauseum, players with better innate abilities will be attracted to travel but it is not travel that gives them the better innate abilities.
You have changed your stance which is encouraging.
Daque you can only go where your talent takes you. A great travel team with great coaching will give you your best shot at getting there.
As Doug pointed out some guys with innate talent may never get down the road to develop his skills. Here it is almost impossible to break into a travel team unless they are desperate for players. Also the longer you Waite ,the tougher it is.
I think Dougs position pretty much echos mine. I have watched this play out many times where kids try to break into a travel team and can't do it.
Daque when my son's HS BKTB coach left and went to Arizona, the HS team went to pot within 2 years. My son even stayed back 1 year and delayed his college BB because he wanted 1 more year with that coach.
Coaching does make a huge difference. They teach talented kids skills and how to use their abilities.
i've asked this question quite a bit. never really got an answer. i'll try again.
are kids good because they play travel? or because they are good they play travel?
new question.
does anyone know if there a bunch of travel teams out there with just average kids? if so have those kids really become good players?
are kids good because they play travel? or because they are good they play travel?
new question.
does anyone know if there a bunch of travel teams out there with just average kids? if so have those kids really become good players?
quote:You have changed your stance which is encouraging.
I think not. But perhaps I did not expand enough.
There are some things to be gained through small diamond travel ball at any age but they are not deal breakers in making the HS team. However, they are attributes with value, especially pushing the kid who hasn't had to work to succeed in rec ball. Travel ball for gifted players is essential once they are playing on the full sized diamond.
The mental side and passion comes from a good coach which can be found, or not, in any venue. I have interpreted your position to be that small diamond travel is essential for future success which I do not believe. We will have to agree to disagree on that point.
If I knew that a given munchkin (age 12 or less) was the next coming I would encourage his parents to get him with the best coaching they could, regardless of team orientation. But I cannot tell how good a player is going to be until about age 16 so I prefer to wait until getting a peek at his performance on the full sized diamond before recommending travel ball. Save the money until then.
I cannot answer issues that you raised about Canadian baseball or hockey since I have no knowledge on which to base an informed decision. I could guess that in Russia etc. that hockey is the sport of preference in the cold months whereas in warmner climes it is basketball. More numbers playing equates to higher numbers of players with the necessary innate ability. Or perhaps it is the genes thing. All guessing on my part.
Perhaps it you who is changing his stance on the roles of innate ability and learned skills. Then again....
All of the above are true.
Good kids travel as Daque now points out gravitate to travel teams. Not all travel teams are equal and that is why you do your due diligence when picking one.
There are teams with average players who play on travel teams but the travel team may be average as well. Again not all are equal.
Our elite teams were created to fill the demand for high level coaching and competition. If there was no demand they wouldn't exist and if they weren't successful in fulfilling that need, they wouldn't survive.
Good kids travel as Daque now points out gravitate to travel teams. Not all travel teams are equal and that is why you do your due diligence when picking one.
There are teams with average players who play on travel teams but the travel team may be average as well. Again not all are equal.
Our elite teams were created to fill the demand for high level coaching and competition. If there was no demand they wouldn't exist and if they weren't successful in fulfilling that need, they wouldn't survive.
Daque the reason is not genes. Genes play a role in the innate ability but it is coaching and playing competitively at an Early age. Places like Canada , Russia etc have highly developed systems for developing players. It is true in all sports. BB is probably the poorest developing sport here and it is light years ahead of most areas.
The countries that have great developing programs are the ones that usually do well at the Olympics and other venues.
The secret to success in any endeavor is early development and offering the venues to develop.
The countries that have great developing programs are the ones that usually do well at the Olympics and other venues.
The secret to success in any endeavor is early development and offering the venues to develop.
Kids develop at different rates. I have seen BB players not reach their potential until they are in their late 20s.
I have always looked at sports as a gleaning process where only the best survive.
I have always looked at sports as a gleaning process where only the best survive.
what did you guy's do with the horse?
BHD: The natives are getting restless with our ongoing commentary. As to the location of the horse we have disposed of all parts but his a** and there is no way to get rid of those parts other than on a baseball board.
BHD, you note that, "The secret to success in any endeavor is ealy development and offering the venues to develop." I am in qualified agreement.
The definition of early development varies with the sport. Women's world class gymnastics is very early, like maybe 5 years of age. In this sport the word, "elite" has a specific defined meaaning. It has no meaning in a team sport but is used to hype in the US and in Canada it appears to mean above travel in level of play.
On the other end of the spectrum, cross country skiing has champions often in their 30's.
The question becomes what is early as it relates to baseball. You and I differ here and perhaps our experiences differ because of how the game is played in our own back yard. The better players must take advantage of their opportunities as they present themselves and at the correct time. Overkill as well as missing the boat are risks to be taken into account.
Once again, it appears that you place skill development ahead of innate ability in the order of importance. As you would expect, I reverse their respective roles. It is an opinion based upon experience and our experiences also differ. What else could we expect as a result of that?
BHD, you note that, "The secret to success in any endeavor is ealy development and offering the venues to develop." I am in qualified agreement.
The definition of early development varies with the sport. Women's world class gymnastics is very early, like maybe 5 years of age. In this sport the word, "elite" has a specific defined meaaning. It has no meaning in a team sport but is used to hype in the US and in Canada it appears to mean above travel in level of play.
On the other end of the spectrum, cross country skiing has champions often in their 30's.
The question becomes what is early as it relates to baseball. You and I differ here and perhaps our experiences differ because of how the game is played in our own back yard. The better players must take advantage of their opportunities as they present themselves and at the correct time. Overkill as well as missing the boat are risks to be taken into account.
Once again, it appears that you place skill development ahead of innate ability in the order of importance. As you would expect, I reverse their respective roles. It is an opinion based upon experience and our experiences also differ. What else could we expect as a result of that?
In the purest form they play travel because they are good. What has happened recently is everyone who thinks they're good (or their parents think so) are now playing travel.quote:Are kids good because they play travel? or because they are good they play travel?
Also There are parents who believe if they get their kids on a 9U travel team of a program that sends kids to college ball, their kid will play college ball. A parent of a 9U player (from a known program) once told me his son will play college ball because he's in the program. I know the roster has turned over dramatically just from 13U to 16U.
LOL!quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
what did you guy's do with the horse?
Daque, I have read all of your comments on this subject. If what you say is true it seems as if we would have more african-americans playing baseball. Some will say that they lose interst, cost of playing, coaching etc.. I live in Atlanta where baseball is very popular in the african-american community. The younger teams (12 and under) are very good they compete with the best teams in the country because they are better athletes in my opinion and have more innate ability ,but after this age they fall off the map. I will admit that alot of the kids end up focusing on football and basketball but the ones that stay with baseball have a difficult time competeing for the most part with their white counterparts. If what you say is true it would be just the opposite. What are your thoughts on this? I hope no one is offended by this post I am just curious about this.
No matter athletic you are catching , hitting and throwing a baseball are not skills that just being athletic will allow you to master at a high level. You can take a kid that has never played football in his life and if he is athletic , strong and has the desire , you can put him on the D line and tell him to go get the football adn he can have success. Take that same kid and if he has never played baseball before he is toast.
Bison:
I think you ought to think about self-editing your post. It is so wrong in so, so many ways.
I think you ought to think about self-editing your post. It is so wrong in so, so many ways.
jemaz, with all due respect explain how it is wrong
Bison: I witness the same thing here in Mexico. Blacks, Hawaiians, Orientals, and Hispanics have their genetics rooted in the warmer climes. As a generalization, kids from warmer climes tend to mature earlier than kids from Northern European stock which come from colder climates. Germans, Danes, Sweeds, Russians, Irish, etc. tend to mature later than the first group.
While the maturity may not be visible externally until adolescence, they tend to have the edge in eye-hand coordination, quick reflexes, strength, and some of the other qualities generally listed as attributes associated with innate ability.
So as the Northern European kids mature they pass some of the earlier bloomers in other attributes such as height, etc. Now all of this has to do with generalities so dont get your shorts in a bunch citing particular players.
As a group, black kids are stronger as are Hisspanic kids but as a group white kids catch up. Some black kids are taller as are some white kids but black kids have a different anatomy to their fast twitch muscular fibers making them quicker and faster. So black kids tend to excell in track, especially sprints. But white kids have the edge in anerobic endeavors and do better overall in wrestling and long distance running.
Certainly one must consider preferences in sport selection where kids see success stories in endeavors that they are good in. Financial considerations also come into play with hockey and swimming.
Many factors go into the mix and one of them is anatomical differences. Another is heredity and age of maturation. Blue eyed guys seem to have an edge in pitching whereas brown eyed players do better in hitting.
I imagine that there will be some that take offense to the generalizations noted above. Oh well. I never was P.C.
While the maturity may not be visible externally until adolescence, they tend to have the edge in eye-hand coordination, quick reflexes, strength, and some of the other qualities generally listed as attributes associated with innate ability.
So as the Northern European kids mature they pass some of the earlier bloomers in other attributes such as height, etc. Now all of this has to do with generalities so dont get your shorts in a bunch citing particular players.
As a group, black kids are stronger as are Hisspanic kids but as a group white kids catch up. Some black kids are taller as are some white kids but black kids have a different anatomy to their fast twitch muscular fibers making them quicker and faster. So black kids tend to excell in track, especially sprints. But white kids have the edge in anerobic endeavors and do better overall in wrestling and long distance running.
Certainly one must consider preferences in sport selection where kids see success stories in endeavors that they are good in. Financial considerations also come into play with hockey and swimming.
Many factors go into the mix and one of them is anatomical differences. Another is heredity and age of maturation. Blue eyed guys seem to have an edge in pitching whereas brown eyed players do better in hitting.
I imagine that there will be some that take offense to the generalizations noted above. Oh well. I never was P.C.
Bison and Jemaz: No comments? Too politically hot? Am I a bigot saying these things?
All I did was attempt to answer the question. I would appreciate a critique because when the topic comes up nobody replies and when I post the content elsewhere dead silence prevails.
All I did was attempt to answer the question. I would appreciate a critique because when the topic comes up nobody replies and when I post the content elsewhere dead silence prevails.
Daque do you have scientific proof of you're suppositions?
You seem to draw conclusions that are not based in fact.
You seem to draw conclusions that are not based in fact.
quote:Daque do you have scientific proof of you're suppositions?
You seem to draw conclusions that are not based in fact.
BHD: Thanks for the response. The most obvious area of contention is the comment about different musculature. This information was obtained in a histology (microscopic organ study) back in the late '50's. It was a reputable course and the information was not inlamatory but rather merely informative. It was shown at the time that there were cross bands in the musculature of blacks and this was the reason proposed why they excelled at track. Newer material defined both fast twitch and slow twitch striated muscles in varying amounts. Sprinters had more fast twitch and cross country runners more slow twitch.
A very cursory search online failed to allow me to find the proof that you reasonably requested. However, I assure you that the information was there and your position about the conclusions were not mine but I did cite the conclusions without referencing them. Perhaps the information is no longer referenced due to fears of some sort or another.
But in general to deny that different races have different strengths and weaknesses as well as other variations is to deny scientific evidence. Certainly differences in blood make up has been scientifically established.
Since I am unable, and unwilling, to research further I am unable to defend against your accussations and will leave it at that.
Daque, I agree with much of what you have to say on this subject. I guess you can say I am playing devils advocate. I think with the innate athletic ability of african-americans we would see more playing at higher levels (college mlb etc.). I have seen entire african-american teams with better athletes get beat by their white counter parts who were not as athletically gifted. Why does this happen? This goes against your assertion that players with innate abilities will eventually rise to the top.
I believe Hitler was proven wrong with his assertions.
quote:This goes against your assertion that players with innate abilities will eventually rise to the top.
I surely did not mean to imply that. Having the necessary innate abilities gets you in the door to compete at a higher level. Without that you are doomed from the gitgo.
The next most critical factor is the mental side of the game such as dealing with defeat and pressure, mental toughness, and work ethic, for example.
Next comes a passion for the game. Finally, an ability to hit effectively with wood.
How many times have you seen a player with all sorts of physical ability just pi** it down the drain for lack of some of the above factors? By the time a player gets to the college ranks, all of the team has great innate ability and most have refined skills. What they lack at that level, if they fail, is the mental side of the game and the passion.
As a more direct answer to your question, their coaches along the way have failed them.
I think you guys are confusing innate ability or natural talent with athleticism.
Being athletic doesn't mean you can throw a ball 95 mph, or hit it 400'. These are specific natural talents.
Michael Jordan is an amazing athlete but didn't have the talent to hit a breaking ball. Having a vertical leap of 48" doesn't mean you can throw or hit a baseball well enough to play at a high level.
How many non athletic looking pitchers are in the major leagues, or power hitters for that matter.
Black, white or purple, if you don't have a natural baseball talent chances are you won't make to the top of the baseball world.
Being athletic doesn't mean you can throw a ball 95 mph, or hit it 400'. These are specific natural talents.
Michael Jordan is an amazing athlete but didn't have the talent to hit a breaking ball. Having a vertical leap of 48" doesn't mean you can throw or hit a baseball well enough to play at a high level.
How many non athletic looking pitchers are in the major leagues, or power hitters for that matter.
Black, white or purple, if you don't have a natural baseball talent chances are you won't make to the top of the baseball world.
Jordan is a tough example to cite. He didn't play competitive baseball until be placed in the minors after many years of not playing ball. Had he been playing since high school. I'll bet there's a good chance he could have been a MLB baseball player.quote:Michael Jordan is an amazing athlete but didn't have the talent to hit a breaking ball. Having a vertical leap of 48" doesn't mean you can throw or hit a baseball well enough to play at a high level.
Then, of course there's the curve. It's why Danny Ainge ended up playing basketball over baseball. He couldn't hit the MLB curve.
You guys are missing the most important thing about baseball. It does not take great athletic ability to dominate or be a great baseball player. How athletic do you have to be to drop bombs? How athletic do you have to be to throw mid 90's with nasty off speed stuff? How athletic to do you have to be to defend many of the posistions in the field? Just be fundementally sound , athletic enough to get to balls you should and make all the routine plays routinely.
We play many all black schools who have way more athletes than we do. We pound them on a routine basis. They are not as skilled in the fundementals of the game. Many simply can not throw , catch or hit well at all. Baseball is a game that takes reps. It takes time to acquire the skills needed to excell at the game no matter how athletic you are. It is not an instant gratification sport.
Very athletic kids who also put in the skill work basic to baseball development can become outstanding players. And some simply do not. Some unathletic kids who do are just way better players. For every Cameron Maybin there are thousands who are athletic who simply can not compete.
When a big fat kid throwing gas with great off speed command shoves it up your a** for 9 innings does it matter he is not athletic? Or a big fat kid drops a couple of bombs on you does it matter how unathletic he is? Baseball is a unique game.
None of this **** makes much sense to me that is being posted. We all know that a great athlete who also has great baseball skills is a great athletic baseball player. But we also know that you dont have to be a great athlete to be a great baseball player. Or do we?
We play many all black schools who have way more athletes than we do. We pound them on a routine basis. They are not as skilled in the fundementals of the game. Many simply can not throw , catch or hit well at all. Baseball is a game that takes reps. It takes time to acquire the skills needed to excell at the game no matter how athletic you are. It is not an instant gratification sport.
Very athletic kids who also put in the skill work basic to baseball development can become outstanding players. And some simply do not. Some unathletic kids who do are just way better players. For every Cameron Maybin there are thousands who are athletic who simply can not compete.
When a big fat kid throwing gas with great off speed command shoves it up your a** for 9 innings does it matter he is not athletic? Or a big fat kid drops a couple of bombs on you does it matter how unathletic he is? Baseball is a unique game.
None of this **** makes much sense to me that is being posted. We all know that a great athlete who also has great baseball skills is a great athletic baseball player. But we also know that you dont have to be a great athlete to be a great baseball player. Or do we?
quote:Or do we?
Yes we do.
I can think of many examples of guys who succeed in BB that are not great athletes.
BHD: You are just a nasty unhappy person who just cannot help himself. The Hitler comment shows your ignorance. You are once again on ignore para siempre. Being the wimp you are you should be glad you can hide behind a discussion board's annonymity.
Wow Daque you are a little off the wall.
Trust me you are lucky I am hiding behind a screen name.
There was a time Hitler believed the Germans were the superior race. They dominated the Olympics. Quoting a little Latin ? One can only hope !
Trust me you are lucky I am hiding behind a screen name.
There was a time Hitler believed the Germans were the superior race. They dominated the Olympics. Quoting a little Latin ? One can only hope !
I don't think that the discussion is out of line at all.
Living in an area that has become predominetly hispanic, you will find those players mature and excel at an earlier age until others (non hispanic) mature physically.
Interesting, my perception is that hispanic and black bb players are usually faster, whether this is an inborn trait, I am not sure, but you won't find most of them as good pitchers, as this is more of an excercise in what Daque speaks of (anerobics). Here, football reigns supreme over any other sport, and most of those that participate in football excel in track and field as well. Same with basketball, just take a look at who dominates and participates in this sport. The faster atheletes, which IMO are usually black, not sure where one needs proof of this, just take a look at any NFL or NBA team. How many black quarterbacks are there? A handful. Why?
Overall, when a college coach or pro scout is interested, they will take into consideration as to the athleticism of a player in regards to his position. As far as pitching, not only do you have to be able to sustain hours on the mound, but play your position well. Who wants a guy who can't field his position? Manny is very lucky he is an awesome hitter, not sure he would be playing if he wasn't, what makes up for one skill certainly can outway another.
FWIW, ever wonder if the above is not true, why so many hispanic players lie about their birthdates? An example would be a player in the Cardinals system, he lied about his birthdate, no wonder he was so dominate above all the others who were 2-3 years younger than he was.
JMO.
Living in an area that has become predominetly hispanic, you will find those players mature and excel at an earlier age until others (non hispanic) mature physically.
Interesting, my perception is that hispanic and black bb players are usually faster, whether this is an inborn trait, I am not sure, but you won't find most of them as good pitchers, as this is more of an excercise in what Daque speaks of (anerobics). Here, football reigns supreme over any other sport, and most of those that participate in football excel in track and field as well. Same with basketball, just take a look at who dominates and participates in this sport. The faster atheletes, which IMO are usually black, not sure where one needs proof of this, just take a look at any NFL or NBA team. How many black quarterbacks are there? A handful. Why?
Overall, when a college coach or pro scout is interested, they will take into consideration as to the athleticism of a player in regards to his position. As far as pitching, not only do you have to be able to sustain hours on the mound, but play your position well. Who wants a guy who can't field his position? Manny is very lucky he is an awesome hitter, not sure he would be playing if he wasn't, what makes up for one skill certainly can outway another.
FWIW, ever wonder if the above is not true, why so many hispanic players lie about their birthdates? An example would be a player in the Cardinals system, he lied about his birthdate, no wonder he was so dominate above all the others who were 2-3 years younger than he was.
JMO.
What I do believe is that entering Hitler into the discussion is inappropriate and out of line for this message board.
There are a lot of very good European BKTB players. Also Chinese.
The great long distant runners are African because they run as part of their daily routine. Football is an American sport while socer, rugby are the big sports which black and other races are more on an equal level.
Referencing Hitlers ideology is no more less appropriate here than racial profiling.
A good deal pf how kids develop may have more to do with cultural and social economic issues. Kids growing up idolizing certain players may tend to excel in that sport given that they have the innate ability.
The great long distant runners are African because they run as part of their daily routine. Football is an American sport while socer, rugby are the big sports which black and other races are more on an equal level.
Referencing Hitlers ideology is no more less appropriate here than racial profiling.
A good deal pf how kids develop may have more to do with cultural and social economic issues. Kids growing up idolizing certain players may tend to excel in that sport given that they have the innate ability.
Sorry BHD, there is no reason to mention what you did, period. I don't care about your dislike for Daque, that is your issue, but I feel that you are continually baiting him.
For whatever it is worth, this discussion was and should be about travel ball, and if it continues to go astray, with comments that don't belong along with personal attacks, it's going to be closed.
Thanks.
For whatever it is worth, this discussion was and should be about travel ball, and if it continues to go astray, with comments that don't belong along with personal attacks, it's going to be closed.
Thanks.
Show me where I attacked Daque.
The reference was about a belief in superiority of a race and had nothing to do with him.
I really couldn't care less what you like. I think that should be clear by now.
The reference was about a belief in superiority of a race and had nothing to do with him.
I really couldn't care less what you like. I think that should be clear by now.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Daque do you have scientific proof of you're suppositions?
You seem to draw conclusions that are not based in fact.
This is IMO baiting, the other comment just didn't belong here.
The warning was not just to you. How about getting back to travel ball?
quote:I believe Hitler was proven wrong with his assertions
How does this attack Daque?
How does this evoke a his nasty response.
TPM you never could comprehend very well.
TPM: From your comments it appears that you have some authority on this board. If so, please delete my name from your roster. I want off of this board and my name removed from your files. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Daque:
TPM: From your comments it appears that you have some authority on this board. If so, please delete my name from your roster. I want off of this board and my name removed from your files. Thanks.
I cannot remove anything, only close topics and delete if necessary, you will have to request that from the owner, MN-Mom.
Shame though Daque, I do believe that you have some good things to contribute.
I was only trying to get things back on track, again this was a topic on the good and bad of travel baseball, but has become a ****ing match between you and bobblehead, not by your doing.
I thought Jimmy the Greek had died.
Hey Midlo theres a name for you. Ole Jimmy the Greek. I used to do all his lawn work "before he died." The guy used to leave me a big box of wine and other treats during the holidays outside his garage. I had a couple of conversations with him over the years. Strange individual does not even come close to it.
IMO BHD did not bring this on at all. He just apparently finished it.
IMO BHD did not bring this on at all. He just apparently finished it.
Dirtbags: I do not know who you are referring to. I merely was answering a post directed to me. I answered it as honestly and correctly as I could. Zeich heil!
I am Switzerland.
I guess they moved Switzerland to NC. So be it. This has been an interesting board but is no longer fun. Adios to all.
véale luego
Interesting attitudes with no platitudes !!!!
Am I understanding this correctly?
An overall National Socialist ideology is forming on this web site!
An overall National Socialist ideology is forming on this web site!
Bear
I think it is only in the minds of certain posters
How is Casey doing?
I think it is only in the minds of certain posters
How is Casey doing?
He's got his 'exit' interview, this afternoon
(and prior to the Southern League Playoffs), so I will fill you in on a separate email (rather than this place)
(and prior to the Southern League Playoffs), so I will fill you in on a separate email (rather than this place)
I agree with everything you said. I also believe that your son or daughter should play an array of sports from 4 to 10 or 11, this will help him be a better athlete and by the time he hits 11 you know generally what sports or sport he likes best and wants to pursue. My son is 11 and is now playing travel ball and I can see his advancing (wow - espcially at the plate). Question: He also wants to play LL, should he also keep playing LL or should he stick with travel ball?
quote:Originally posted by CNY2010:
With all of the recent posts, I thought I would chime in with my experiences in my son's journey.
Mine started playing organized "coach pitch" at 8 years old. When he was 8 or 9, a coach asked me to allow him to play for his travel team. I initially said no, because he was only 8 and I wanted it to be just fun. Same coach asked me again when he was 10. This time I allowed him to do it, and it was a disaster. Wrong type of coach, and my son was just not ready for that pace of tournament play and competition. I put him back in local league play and the smile returned.
When he turned 11, HE asked to return to travel ball. This time, I carefully researched a team and coach, sent him to the tryout and away he went. This time, he thrived. Throughout the years, I saw good teams, bad teams, and good and bad coaches. I strongly believe that the quality of coaching and competition that he received throughout travel ball best prepared him for high school. I don't think he would be the player that he is today (now a Varsity player) if he just played local rec ball. One of the things that the HS coach raved about was his "baseball smarts" and that he KNEW HOW TO PLAY. I credit travel ball for this. He has also done his fair share of clinics and private lessons. Private lessons are just that. They tweek and enhance what is there, but nothing replaces natural ability, desire and real game experience. So, for a pre-high school player, I would highly recommend the travel route PROVIDED you do your research and pick the right coach and team. Once he gets to HS tryouts, the coach could care less how many AAU/USSSA/etc tournaments that he won. He will care about how he can help his team win, and does he KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE GAME.
Be wary of the private lesson stuff. Remember, that former minor league or college player is looking for income. If he tells you the truth, you won't bring junior back. There are however, former players who will give you an honest evaluation good or bad. Find that guy and use the lessons as an additional tool, not a replacement for practice or real games. Same with clinics. I know a parent who has spent thousands of dollars on private lessons for her son. He has yet to crack the Varsity squad. Why? Because she confused private lessons with valuable real game experience against the best competition you can find. It's easy to look great in a lesson, but no one is swinging at your pitches.
Finally, don't get wrapped up into the whole showcase and "exposure" stuff. College coaches are not interested in players 4 or 5 years away. Showcase what at 10, 11 or 12 years old? Something that MIGHT BE, in a few years? Just have him play, play, play and get valuable experience. Better still, have him learn and play as many positions as possible. Most guys who played SS during travel ball don't even play there now, so don't get wrapped up into the coaches kid playing there. Daddy ball has been with us for generations and is not going anywhere. Also, you don't have to go to Myrtle Beach, Disney, or the Super Mother of End All Nationals each year for him to make his high school team. Keep it realistic and keep it fun and do your research. Remember, it should be HIS dream, not yours. Hope this helps.
Len Len, my younger son has continued to play travel ball and Little League. It is every Little League coach's dream to have a travel ball player on his team and will usually be selected in the first round of the "draft". Your child will have to be at a certain amount(75%?)of games to make All Stars, if that is important to you and your son. It will be frustrating to the other parents when your child misses a practice or game for travel ball and then starts in his LL game when he does show up. We have been there. You will see improvement in your child by all the practice and games...even the weakest Little League player gets better by the end of the season. That said, you will get probably better coaching and game playing with your travel ball team. You get better by playing with/against better teams. But, if you can do both timewise, do it. It wasn't until this year when my younger son, playing at the Junior level in Little League (age 13) felt very frustrated with the level of play on the field since he had already been playing and pitching on the "big" field wiht his travelball team. Also, when he missed a travel ball practice for a Little League game, his travel coach asked me how many hits he got that night...I told him he went 3 for 3 (three hits). I thought that sounded pretty good until the coach told me the other players that did show up for practice got 100-150 hits each in practice. My son may play one more year at the Junior level, and it will be a juggle if he makes his high school JV team. At 11 years old, I would try to continue Little League at least through the Majors level (age 12). We went as a family to Williamsport to the LL World Series this summer and my 13 and 15 year old sons both loved it!
The LL rule is more than 50% of the games. In the league my son came from is a kid skipped LL games for travel he was not selected for all-stars. It was never an issue.quote:Your child will have to be at a certain amount(75%?)of games to make All Stars
The number is 60% of the games. Missing LL for travel was never a problem for our league.
We are small and want the best players.
We are small and want the best players.
Our league wanted the players committed to LL, not those using LL to play all-stars. It was never an issue. Everyone was told about the league rule. The league is very successful in all-stars. Or at least they were for twenty years before the "feel good" crowd took over.quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
The number is 60% of the games. Missing LL for travel was never a problem for our league.
We are small and want the best players.
RJM,
You have it backwards. It wasn't allowed to benefit the kids AS, it was to get more kids in the league. Those kids that play part time still have to pay their fees, do the fundraisers, volunteer the parents. It benefits the league more than the individual player. Trust me, it was a pain in the you know what. We did it for the league. AS in LL is still just LL ball. Not very demanding and the behind the scenes stuff is crazy. 10 times the insanity.
You have it backwards. It wasn't allowed to benefit the kids AS, it was to get more kids in the league. Those kids that play part time still have to pay their fees, do the fundraisers, volunteer the parents. It benefits the league more than the individual player. Trust me, it was a pain in the you know what. We did it for the league. AS in LL is still just LL ball. Not very demanding and the behind the scenes stuff is crazy. 10 times the insanity.
You're trying to speak for the entire country.quote:AS in LL is still just LL ball. Not very demanding ....
Where I live a kid wouldn't dream of not playing LL if it's available and he's good enough to make all-stars. The other kids play Ripken. Kids aren't playing travel over rec ball until 13U. And some of these former rec ballers (their primary teams until they got too 13U) are going on to national programs like UNC, Florida and Wake Forest. Five rec ballers from my son's team when he was eleven should go anywhere from high end D3 to D1. The same thing with the state champion. Not bad for kids raised on rec ball with some community based travel (nothing more than all-stars) as a second program until 13U.
Wow! LL wouldn't have survived without your son and heroes like him! People who think like this crack me up. In our league he would have received zero all-star voters and the team would have won without him.quote:We did it for the league.
RJM.
We are in an area that is declining swiftly in LL. 19 to 13 districts in a couple of years in AZ. Our league consolidated 3 years ago with another. We are down to 4 majors teams. Everybody leaves LL by 10 or 11 to play travel or Cal Ripken. We do not have the luxury to be choosy. We will take any players. More players equals a stronger league. Ours is dying state wide.
So it does help the league. If we kicked out every kid who played travel we wouldn't have any teams past minors.
Your sarcasm isn't necessary. I never said we saved the league. Just helped to make it a little stronger along with 90% of the other majors players and parents who play travel. I believe that LL is growing year to year, unfortunantly, it seems to be only on the international side. The US numbers are probably shrinking very fast indeed. I notice how they never post them.
We are in an area that is declining swiftly in LL. 19 to 13 districts in a couple of years in AZ. Our league consolidated 3 years ago with another. We are down to 4 majors teams. Everybody leaves LL by 10 or 11 to play travel or Cal Ripken. We do not have the luxury to be choosy. We will take any players. More players equals a stronger league. Ours is dying state wide.
So it does help the league. If we kicked out every kid who played travel we wouldn't have any teams past minors.
Your sarcasm isn't necessary. I never said we saved the league. Just helped to make it a little stronger along with 90% of the other majors players and parents who play travel. I believe that LL is growing year to year, unfortunantly, it seems to be only on the international side. The US numbers are probably shrinking very fast indeed. I notice how they never post them.
RJM,
LL isn't very demanding. As long as they have everybody plays and geographical boundaries rules, it will always be just for fun and giggles. Not to mention the rules that attempt to dumb down the game and make everyone equal.
Not very demanding at all.
LL isn't very demanding. As long as they have everybody plays and geographical boundaries rules, it will always be just for fun and giggles. Not to mention the rules that attempt to dumb down the game and make everyone equal.
Not very demanding at all.
quote:LL isn't very demanding. As long as they have everybody plays and geographical boundaries rules, it will always be just for fun and giggles. Not to mention the rules that attempt to dumb down the game and make everyone equal.
I think this is too broad of a statement. My son plays both now. He is a league age 11 now but will be 12 next year in LL. From what I have seen with the travel ball around here (which the difference is 50/70 diamond vs a 46/60 diamond), the talent is no better than LL. The game is just different with leading and such. In fact I will say that the District All-Star teams in our area have better talent than the travel teams. Mainly because kids in our area play both. I think for kids it's a matter of learning the "real" game. We took our new travel team down to Myrtle beach, having practiced only 3 times together prior. These kids were all on a LL District all-star team, and had a week to learn to play on the 50/70. We played in the 12U bracket as league age 11's. We went 4-2. Not bad for a bunch of LL players that had a week to learn to play "travel" ball.
My point is baseball is baseball, no matter what. Playing travel doesn't make you a better player, nor does it "expose" you to better talent. At least not in CT. It does expose you to other parts of the game that are not in LL. Playing travel baseball does not mean your kid is a better player....not even close. Even more, playing travel baseball will not make your child throw better or harder, hit better or further. It simply gives kids a chance to learn the game past LL. That's all.
Pat H,
I think your situation is more geographical because in the big four states of baseball (CA, FL, TX, and GA) it is definately not that way. There is a significant difference in the players playing LL baseball and that of travel ball. (While I say that, it does not mean that there are not travel teams who are worse than the local LL All-star team.)
You can watch the USSSA Elite World Series for 12U and compare that to the LLWS and see the difference.
I think your situation is more geographical because in the big four states of baseball (CA, FL, TX, and GA) it is definately not that way. There is a significant difference in the players playing LL baseball and that of travel ball. (While I say that, it does not mean that there are not travel teams who are worse than the local LL All-star team.)
You can watch the USSSA Elite World Series for 12U and compare that to the LLWS and see the difference.
Could be very true EC. But I wonder, is the difference because the 12U kids in the Elite WS are better players or are they considered better because they are playing on modified field, leading, picking off, etc. Are the Elite kids hitting the ball harder or farther? Are they faster? Are the throwing harder or with more accuracy? I have never watched the Elite WS so I can't honestly compare the 2.
I can say after watching the LLWS is that if my son's team is ever fortunate enough to make it there, I hope the umps tighten up that strike zone. And you can also see that there are teams in the LLWS that play travel. I saw a player from Mexico take off toward first on a dropped 3rd strike. Obviously you can't do that in LL.
I can say after watching the LLWS is that if my son's team is ever fortunate enough to make it there, I hope the umps tighten up that strike zone. And you can also see that there are teams in the LLWS that play travel. I saw a player from Mexico take off toward first on a dropped 3rd strike. Obviously you can't do that in LL.
In our area LL didn't catch on. There is is only one team that I am aware of but there may be a few more. The rules killed it here because it is too much like Rec which serious players wouldn't want to play.
Leading off, pick offs are skills and the sooner you learn the proper techniques the better off you are.
I am sure there are some good players in LL but why would you play LL rules when you have to play regular rules eventually.
Our guys go right from the small diamond to the large on. I have never noticed a learning curve at all. A few practices and all was very normal.
Leading off, pick offs are skills and the sooner you learn the proper techniques the better off you are.
I am sure there are some good players in LL but why would you play LL rules when you have to play regular rules eventually.
Our guys go right from the small diamond to the large on. I have never noticed a learning curve at all. A few practices and all was very normal.
This has become a circular debate. I'm not doing another round. Playing LL has not prevented anyone with talent in our area from playing D1 college baseball because where a kid plays as a preteen is inconsequential to playing college ball.quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
RJM,
LL isn't very demanding. As long as they have everybody plays and geographical boundaries rules, it will always be just for fun and giggles. Not to mention the rules that attempt to dumb down the game and make everyone equal.
Not very demanding at all.
Travel teams are better because they recruit from far and wide versus LL being restricted to small boundaries.quote:Originally posted by Pat H:
Could be very true EC. But I wonder, is the difference because the 12U kids in the Elite WS are better players or are they considered better because they are playing on modified field, leading, picking off, etc. Are the Elite kids hitting the ball harder or farther? Are they faster? Are the throwing harder or with more accuracy? I have never watched the Elite WS so I can't honestly compare the 2.
I can say after watching the LLWS is that if my son's team is ever fortunate enough to make it there, I hope the umps tighten up that strike zone. And you can also see that there are teams in the LLWS that play travel. I saw a player from Mexico take off toward first on a dropped 3rd strike. Obviously you can't do that in LL.
At 13U my team was thirteen of the best players from the LL district. Go figure they pounded LL Jrs teams in tournaments. At 14U we merged with another travel team who did the same thing. We had some of the best players for forty miles.
Most of the kids on LLWS teams have played travel. But the teams are still limited in construction by small geography. The LL we came from had boundaries smaller than the (suburban) school district. My son played against some of his school friends in LL all-stars.quote:And you can also see that there are teams in the LLWS that play travel.
Nice try RJM. I never said anything about college. Just that LL isn't very demanding. That is all I said. You keep bringing in other factors. LL may be tough in your area, but it isn't relevant in a lot of places. Average travel teams in our area will stomp most LL AS teams. It is pretty true in most areas of the country.
Like I said, it isn't very demanding. Just for fun and giggles and playing with your friends.
Like I said, it isn't very demanding. Just for fun and giggles and playing with your friends.
At Major Bantam we had a LL team from the Buffalo area want to start a regular series with our AAA city OBA team. We had boundaries but played regular rules like leading off. Running on dropped 3rd strike , full size diamond etc. After the 1st game that was too obvious it wouldn't work. They were way behind our players.
Please try to comprehend this ...quote:Average travel teams in our area will stomp most LL AS teams. It is pretty true in most areas of the country
Travel teams are better than LL teams because they draw from a wider area. They don't have the geographic limitations of a LL. Why do pro preteen travel people have such a difficult time grasping this. If a travel team loses to a LL all-star team they should do one of two things, disband or recruit the pitcher who mowed them down.
My son's LL all-star team did not play for fun and giggles. In fact I find the comment condescending and insulting. They worked their tails off every day they didn't play. From a reps standpoint it was some of the best baseball practice time my son had as a preteen.
Some of these kids are now committing to major programs like Florida, UNC, Wake. Obviously playing LL didn't set them back as you constantly trumpet.
Sorry I struck a nerve RJM. But LL is just for fun. When kids can bat .990 and average 12+ K's a six inning game it is a little silly. When you lose perspective, you might want to check your logic. And read the posts. I mentioned the geographical boundaries. I am glad it is strong in your area. But I bet it is weaker than it was 10 years ago and in 10 more years, who knows. Arizona has grown around 3 times in population in the last twenty years and there are less kids playing LL now if you go by the loss of districts. You can really see the loss in the higher levels. You start with 15 T-ball teams and end up with 5 majors teams. JR's is about dead and I have never seen the next level play in LL. And all three of my kids played LL. The last one finished this year.
LL is in a tail spin.
LL is in a tail spin.
When I talk about LL I'm discussing the preteen years. Once thirteen a kid should be looking for the highest level of ball he can compete. The pecking order here is travel, Junior Legion, Connie Mack and LL Juniors/Babe Ruth. My son was placed on a Connie Mack roster as an emergency player at thirteen and fourteen. He called the few games he played mid week BP.quote:JR's is about dead and I have never seen the next level play in LL.
LL is still strong here. But all the good programs have their potential all-stars playing in the USSSA Sunday doubleheader league now. It became very popular in our district after I formed the travel team and the all-stars proceeded to win two districts (lost sections to the state champion twice). It became very popular on this side of the state since the team that went to the LLWS when my son was twelve played travel ball on Sundays.
At 13U I reorganized the travel team with four players from our all-star team and added nine of the best former LL players from the district. The following year the team was merged with another team. To watch the evolution of teams from 13U to 15U was interesting. Many teams folded by 15U when daddy discovered his kid couldn't play the game couldn't make the high school freshman team.
quote:Travel teams are better because they recruit from far and wide versus LL being restricted to small boundaries.
I don't have a ton of experience in the travel ball world, but the above statement confuses me a little. Every travel team in our area announces try outs in the papers and such. Yeah I guess some recruiting goes on, but you can only recruit kids if you have seen them play before. Where would those coaches see them play (LL other travel teams?) Is there a list of the best 12 yr olds around in a given area?
Also, I think part of the issue here is that there is a fundamental difference between individual talent and team play. You may have a great team, but the kids might be average players. And you also may have a load of talent but stink as a team.
Around here, most travel teams play in a pretty broad area. Even if you don't play in out of state tournaments, it is not uncommon to go to tournaments that are 1 - 1 1/2 hours away. Coaches get to see teams from all over. LL boundaries are something like in a 4-5 mile radius. Here in Metro Atlanta in Georgia, there are very few LL opportunities.
Our travel team (16 yr. old), has kids from three towns that are next to each other, but the distance can be as much as 20 miles between where the kids live. Even at 12, my son was on a team that had kids that were from two towns, but went to three different HS's with up to 10 or 12 miles separating them. They all played in the same town rec league when they were younger, but most never would have played together on a LL team due to the distances. Even at 12, or 8 for that matter, teams play in tournaments with kids from many areas. The local travel "league" includes teams from 3 counties, so they play teams from quite a wide geographic range.
Our travel team (16 yr. old), has kids from three towns that are next to each other, but the distance can be as much as 20 miles between where the kids live. Even at 12, my son was on a team that had kids that were from two towns, but went to three different HS's with up to 10 or 12 miles separating them. They all played in the same town rec league when they were younger, but most never would have played together on a LL team due to the distances. Even at 12, or 8 for that matter, teams play in tournaments with kids from many areas. The local travel "league" includes teams from 3 counties, so they play teams from quite a wide geographic range.
From following the growth of travel ball New England is one of the last areas to get into it. Until 16U the teams tended to be town oriented. It's starting to change.quote:Originally posted by Pat H:quote:Travel teams are better because they recruit from far and wide versus LL being restricted to small boundaries.
I don't have a ton of experience in the travel ball world, but the above statement confuses me a little. Every travel team in our area announces try outs in the papers and such. Yeah I guess some recruiting goes on, but you can only recruit kids if you have seen them play before. Where would those coaches see them play (LL other travel teams?) Is there a list of the best 12 yr olds around in a given area?
Also, I think part of the issue here is that there is a fundamental difference between individual talent and team play. You may have a great team, but the kids might be average players. And you also may have a load of talent but stink as a team.
In our area, the better travel teams don't have open tryouts. They invite the players they want. A tryout would be an individual player coming to practice or playing in the pool game of a tournament.
At 11U and 12U another team's coach and I had a plan we would convert our ll all-star travel teams into legit travel teams. For two years in all-star tournaments and travel games we paid attention to who where the best players with potential upside on the 60/90 field. We made a list of twenty and got thirteen of them.
The team developed a reputation for quality instruction (four former college players/two played pro) and no favoritism/daddyball. Winning a lot didn't hurt either. At 14U the team was approached by quality players in daddyball situations. In addition we merged with another quality team. At that point we could beat anyone. At 15U an academy sponsored the team to take it in under it's umbrella and start an academy program the following year.
By 16U the best players get recruited by the 18U showcase programs for their 16U prep teams. My son's team had tryouts by invite only. There were about seventy five at tryouts. He was also asked to play for an 18U scout team. The eighteen players are from 10-12 different high schools.
The teams that hold open tryouts are usually looking for players. Those teams usually aren't the better teams. The exception would be some academy teams with strong college placement reputations. They suck the parents in a 3-5K a year starting at 10U. By 16U there are maybe two kids from the 10U team good enough to make the 16U team.
As a newbie to the forum, I felt compelled to chime in.
In our area, LL is some $180 for a typical spring season, and that cost for mediocrity alone actually lends itself to the travel ball alternative at the younger levels, for those who are ready for a more developmental and competitive experience.
The other variable is age - my son, who because of living in Florida, had played almost 4 seasons by the time we moved up to the Carolina's - but because of his birthday and "league age" he was resigned to 2 more years of 'coach pitch' - unless you play the political game, they hold players down regardless of ability.
Not saying he was a superstar, but he already was beyond a typical rec ball practice and easily the best player on his team, and in the end quite bored by it. We played that spring , and moved on to travel ball that summer (machine pitch), and ultimately 9u (modified steal) that fall just after he turned 8. Now, since he played up he suffered a little from the playing time side, but benefited tremendously because of the practices and playing experience.
Now, this fall I let him play rec ball along with our light travel ball schedule, and was shocked although I should not have been - he was light years ahead of most of the players in our league in terms of fundamental skills, baseball awareness and skill. The real good rec players (challenge or All- Star) I saw here would be mediocre travel players at this age level, and would very much be left behind by the time they are 11, and thats not some daddy speaking, because we've had them out to tryouts, and a lot of "studs" in rec ball struggle with simple drills we run in practices, can't execute simple skills like bunting, heads up running, properly fielding a fly ball.
In our area, LL is some $180 for a typical spring season, and that cost for mediocrity alone actually lends itself to the travel ball alternative at the younger levels, for those who are ready for a more developmental and competitive experience.
The other variable is age - my son, who because of living in Florida, had played almost 4 seasons by the time we moved up to the Carolina's - but because of his birthday and "league age" he was resigned to 2 more years of 'coach pitch' - unless you play the political game, they hold players down regardless of ability.
Not saying he was a superstar, but he already was beyond a typical rec ball practice and easily the best player on his team, and in the end quite bored by it. We played that spring , and moved on to travel ball that summer (machine pitch), and ultimately 9u (modified steal) that fall just after he turned 8. Now, since he played up he suffered a little from the playing time side, but benefited tremendously because of the practices and playing experience.
Now, this fall I let him play rec ball along with our light travel ball schedule, and was shocked although I should not have been - he was light years ahead of most of the players in our league in terms of fundamental skills, baseball awareness and skill. The real good rec players (challenge or All- Star) I saw here would be mediocre travel players at this age level, and would very much be left behind by the time they are 11, and thats not some daddy speaking, because we've had them out to tryouts, and a lot of "studs" in rec ball struggle with simple drills we run in practices, can't execute simple skills like bunting, heads up running, properly fielding a fly ball.
Every year, one or two 'travel teams' would ask my son to try out (wink). He always declined. "No, thank you."
I would say 7 or 8 players on his HS team played in travel ball, along with LL and Jr Legion. Two or three still play on 'elite' teams.
Last year, of the four players on this HS team who received post-season recognition, none was a former 'travel team-er' or 'elite' player.
I would say 7 or 8 players on his HS team played in travel ball, along with LL and Jr Legion. Two or three still play on 'elite' teams.
Last year, of the four players on this HS team who received post-season recognition, none was a former 'travel team-er' or 'elite' player.
quote:Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
Last year, of the four players on this HS team who received post-season recognition, none was a former 'travel team-er' or 'elite' player.
Hang around long enough and you'll learn just how little "post season recognition" really means @ the HS level. At least in our area, many other factors seem to dictate who the awardees end up being. For example a PG rated 10 with likely draft interest made 7th team All State while half a dozen other area players made higher lists. I've seen these kids play, anybody with half an eye for talent picks the 7th teamer waaaaay ahead of any of the higher picks. BTW, i don't have a dog in the race, my kids are younger.
All-whatever teams named by newspapers are usually selected by sportswritrers who have never seen many of the players on the field. Making some level of all-conference only takes playing well in half the conference games. The player can stink in the rest. Honorable mention requires one vote.
A high school kid can go 20-50, hit .400 and make all-conference with five bunt singles and beating out five dribblers along with ten decent hits. Stats in small numbers can be very skewed and misleading in regards to ability.
If a kid expects to play past high school in any decent college program he better be on an 18U travel team unless he's a can't overlook stud.
A high school kid can go 20-50, hit .400 and make all-conference with five bunt singles and beating out five dribblers along with ten decent hits. Stats in small numbers can be very skewed and misleading in regards to ability.
If a kid expects to play past high school in any decent college program he better be on an 18U travel team unless he's a can't overlook stud.
RJM agree with yiour last comment that in most cases it helps to have somethign beyond high school ball to get to a decent college program.
However, at least around here, the players that make the all confernce teams are the better players. The high school coaches vote on this and they usually get it right. There may always be a question or two but for the most part the all confernce teams are the better players.
However, at least around here, the players that make the all confernce teams are the better players. The high school coaches vote on this and they usually get it right. There may always be a question or two but for the most part the all confernce teams are the better players.
All region teams here are also voted on by the coaches. Seems like most of those who made 1st and 2nd team around here deserved it.
My point was once past all-conference (where coaches vote), All-Teams named by newspapers are a bunch of BS. It's based on stats in small numbers and word of mouth. A kid hitting .350 in one conference can be a far superior player to a kid hitting .400 in another conference. There was a kid who made All-County in our area named by the newspaper. The article raved he has great hands and only made two errors. The reality is the kid couldn't kick what he couldn't reach. His range and arm is limited. I'll bet the sportswriters who named the team never saw him play.
You do make a good point of the differnece in conferences. In our area there are many teams in large classification but a vast difference in the level of play in the conferences comprising those teams.
In all honesty any travel vs local ball has to be tuned to the desire of the kid. My son loves to play and actually will be joining his first select/travel team at the age of 12. I purposely held him back until he was older simply because I wanted to make sure that he wanted to play at that level and not simply be some kid who plays just to make his dad happy.
I do agree that many of the travel teams have higher caliber coaching and in general better players but that isn't always the case. My son was lucky to have coaches at the 10U and 12U level that were very good at teaching basic fundamentals and sportsmanship. My son has played some travel teams in All Star play (he consistantly makes all star teams in his district) and many of these kids are very good but I have noticed that in some cases the coaching emphasized winning over good baseball and sportsmanship. That may be fine at the high school and collegiate level but I was not pleased to see that at the 11 year old level.
I do agree that many of the travel teams have higher caliber coaching and in general better players but that isn't always the case. My son was lucky to have coaches at the 10U and 12U level that were very good at teaching basic fundamentals and sportsmanship. My son has played some travel teams in All Star play (he consistantly makes all star teams in his district) and many of these kids are very good but I have noticed that in some cases the coaching emphasized winning over good baseball and sportsmanship. That may be fine at the high school and collegiate level but I was not pleased to see that at the 11 year old level.
Travelball, club, whatever you call it is bad for sports and bad for kids... here's why. Kids should be kids, let's not forget that most of the players we are talking about were sleeping with teddy bears five years ago. I can't get my daughter out of bed for school right now because we spent a total of 24 hours traveling to, and playing in a soccer tournament this weekend. My boy (who is a phenomenal pitcher) wants to quit because his last season was daddy ball at its best and he too is burned out having spent every weekend playing tournaments and not playing with friends. Most of these kids will NOT play college and will NOT get scholarships. Their memories of sports when they grow up will NOT be fond... exhaustion, sitting in cars for hours, overbearing daddys, ridiculously intense coaches who want to win at any cost so they can increase their roster (bottom line) next year. It's a puppy mill of players. Not to mention repetitive motion and other injuries. Most will quit by age 15. And, you are robbing rec of all their good players, the result? Rec leagues are having trouble fielding teams and getting fields to play on. My local LL could only get together enough kids for 4 teams for fall ball this year (at all ages), so we are robbing the mediocre kids of their chance to play ball too. In the long run, big picture, it's bad for kids and bad for sports. You people need to keep parenting in perspective.
Dang, way to respond to a thread from 5 years ago!
Originally Posted by VWGolfer:
Dang, way to respond to a thread from 5 years ago!
Obviously, people are still reading this. What an intelligent thing to say. What was the value in your comment?
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college. Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective.
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college. Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective.
Greg ... You need to keep this board in perspective. The posters on this board are mostly the parents of pro players, college players and all conference, if not all state high school players. It's the parents of kids who have been there and done it (got to college ball) and those who likely will get there. This isn't a board of delusional LL dads.
Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college. Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective.
Greg ... You need to keep this board in perspective. The posters on this board are mostly the parents of pro players, college players and all conference, if not all state high school players. It's the parents of kids who have been there and done it (got to college ball) and those who likely will get there. This isn't a board of delusional LL dads.
You're funny, I wonder if you would say that to my face.
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college. Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective.
Greg ... You need to keep this board in perspective. The posters on this board are mostly the parents of pro players, college players and all conference, if not all state high school players. It's the parents of kids who have been there and done it (got to college ball) and those who likely will get there. This isn't a board of delusional LL dads.
You're funny, I wonder if you would say that to my face.
Did I say something offensive? I gave you the facts about this board. Please explain why high school players who are college prospects shouldn't play travel ball. Then l'll have a better understanding of where you're coming from.
Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college. Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective.
Greg ... You need to keep this board in perspective. The posters on this board are mostly the parents of pro players, college players and all conference, if not all state high school players. It's the parents of kids who have been there and done it (got to college ball) and those who likely will get there. This isn't a board of delusional LL dads.
You're funny, I wonder if you would say that to my face.
Did I say something offensive? I gave you the facts about this board. Please explain why high school players who are college prospects shouldn't play travel ball. Then l'll have a better understanding of where you're coming from.
Yes, I thought you were calling me delusional. Sorry if I took undue offense. All I was saying (after reading the majority of posts) is that parents should keep perspective. Statistics say that 90% of the people posting HERE will not see their kids get played to play.
Going pro is a whole other story. I believe the posters on this site understand the numbers. There are enough stories of only going so far even when turning pro. Many posters here have either faced those odds, their kids have faced those odds or from their kids playing at a reasonably elite level know other players who went on to face those odds.
In fact, there are two threads on this board about playing in the minors. One is current about minor league pay. Another is an ongoing thread on the trials and tribulations of being a minor league player.
One active poster here is the president of Perfect Game. While he doesn't claim to have all the answers he sure has seen a lot from parents wasting money on Perfect Game showcases (which he doesn't like to see) to studs who are now MLB stars.
As for delusional LL dads, there are none. There are only over enthusiastic dads yet to be smacked in the face with reality (not that you're one). Welcome to the board. Have a good day.
Note: Sometimes it's interesting to see a newcomer bring an old thread forward. It shows how posters might have thought before x number of years more exposure and experience. It often shows the issues and debates don't change. It's just baseball going round and round.
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
I agree, RJM - this sight is geared towards the kid whose goal is to play college ball (or beyond). I get annoyed every time I see people posting tryouts for non-HS age teams.
To Greg65: Travel ball is a tool - it is neither good or bad. It just is. It's parents (and especially unrealistic parents) who steal the joy out of baseball. Parents pick the teams (and therefore the ridiculously intense coaches) so we would be well advised to keep that in perspective, I did. My son's summer team this year was only .500 even though we had the talent to win more games. But we went with an organization that believes in developing players and they would leave pitchers in too long to give them a chance to work out of jams or put a kid in an unfamiliar position so he could learn (often by making mistakes).
As long as my kid WANTS to play (e.g. he's asking me to take him to the cages) and his goal is to play in college or the pros, I will continue to pay for travel ball because it gives him the best opportunity to reach his goals. We played LL until he was 13 but he outgrew it. It does a kid no good to be the best player on a marginal team - he won't get better that way. The talent level of the players aside, the problem with rec ball is that they don't play enough games. In LL we played less than 20 games in a season - in travel ball we played nearly 70. That's a lot more reps and a lot more game situations to be exposed to - reps that my son's competition for a HS/College/Pro roster spot are getting while the rec player is hanging out at Chuckee Cheese with his LL buddies.
BTW - there is a no problem with the Rec League baseball in our town - we have one of the 10 largest LL's in the world here and it keeps growing. There is a place for the kid that loves baseball and just wants to play and it's a great place to be.
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Travelball, club, whatever you call it is bad for sports and bad for kids... here's why. Kids should be kids, let's not forget that most of the players we are talking about were sleeping with teddy bears five years ago. I can't get my daughter out of bed for school right now because we spent a total of 24 hours traveling to, and playing in a soccer tournament this weekend. My boy (who is a phenomenal pitcher) wants to quit because his last season was daddy ball at its best and he too is burned out having spent every weekend playing tournaments and not playing with friends. Most of these kids will NOT play college and will NOT get scholarships. Their memories of sports when they grow up will NOT be fond... exhaustion, sitting in cars for hours, overbearing daddys, ridiculously intense coaches who want to win at any cost so they can increase their roster (bottom line) next year. It's a puppy mill of players. Not to mention repetitive motion and other injuries. Most will quit by age 15. And, you are robbing rec of all their good players, the result? Rec leagues are having trouble fielding teams and getting fields to play on. My local LL could only get together enough kids for 4 teams for fall ball this year (at all ages), so we are robbing the mediocre kids of their chance to play ball too. In the long run, big picture, it's bad for kids and bad for sports. You people need to keep parenting in perspective.
Some true. A lot BS.
Rec ball and LL has created its own demise. Too many nonsense rules and too political. Rec ball is daddy ball on steroids. They have driven many people away.
Here's the thing. The first order of business is to get your kid to high school with the skills to make the team (and hopefully contribute). As parents we provide that guidance. In many cases, definitely not all, "travel" ball helps with that. After that, it is up to them -- and many will not play beyond HS. So what.
Most join "travel" for advancement. It starts with better coaching and ends with more consistent competition. That is not to say every "travel" team has either. There are way too many PO dad teams, which are nothing more than glorified rec teams. So you need to do your homework.
As for the time commitment, it certainly is a concern. But it is a great life lesson about "sacrifice" and commitment. He'll get upset when he has to miss the "big party" but he gets over it after he finds out it wasn't that good. We make sure he has enough hanging around with friends time.
I am glad we have done it. Did we miss some things? Yes. But we gained many more.
Originally Posted by SPYvSPY:
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
I agree, RJM - this sight is geared towards the kid whose goal is to play college ball (or beyond). I get annoyed every time I see people posting tryouts for non-HS age teams.
To Greg65: Travel ball is a tool - it is neither good or bad. It just is. It's parents (and especially unrealistic parents) who steal the joy out of baseball. Parents pick the teams (and therefore the ridiculously intense coaches) so we would be well advised to keep that in perspective, I did. My son's summer team this year was only .500 even though we had the talent to win more games. But we went with an organization that believes in developing players and they would leave pitchers in too long to give them a chance to work out of jams or put a kid in an unfamiliar position so he could learn (often by making mistakes).
As long as my kid WANTS to play (e.g. he's asking me to take him to the cages) and his goal is to play in college or the pros, I will continue to pay for travel ball because it gives him the best opportunity to reach his goals. We played LL until he was 13 but he outgrew it. It does a kid no good to be the best player on a marginal team - he won't get better that way. The talent level of the players aside, the problem with rec ball is that they don't play enough games. In LL we played less than 20 games in a season - in travel ball we played nearly 70. That's a lot more reps and a lot more game situations to be exposed to - reps that my son's competition for a HS/College/Pro roster spot are getting while the rec player is hanging out at Chuckee Cheese with his LL buddies.
BTW - there is a no problem with the Rec League baseball in our town - we have one of the 10 largest LL's in the world here and it keeps growing. There is a place for the kid that loves baseball and just wants to play and it's a great place to be.
To SPYvSPY: I agree with all your statements, sounds like you are a good Dad. Unfortunately, the majority of people in travelball, IMHO, are the "win at any cost" types who are either in it for the money, or living vicariously through their kids. People forget that it's a "game" and you "play" it. At the end, we are all going to be buried in a hole, if you didn't have fun, and didn't teach your kids to have fun, that's your fault. You should always be asking, "is this fun?" and, "is it worth it?"
I'll make a couple of comments here.
1st is that technically, I think this board is for high school baseball. Hence, highschool baseball web. Back when I first joined the site it seemed like the site really was mostly about high school situations and there were a good number of kids/parents of kids getting ready to move to the HS level. I will agree that the tone and focus of the board has changed to kids with the desire to play at the next level beyond HS. Or maybe it's just my perspective since my son is beyond the HS age. So to bring up situations involving kids pre-hs isn't that far out of the realm of reasonable on this site.
My second point is in regard to Greg65's post. Depending on the age we are talking about, travel can be good or bad depending on your viewpoint. For the HS aged player who wants to play at the next level, it is, without doubt, a good and really a necessary thing. For players age say 12 - 14 or so who want to play for their HS team, I would say it is a beneficial, but not necessary thing. And for players below 12, I think it can be a bad thing. Especially when we're talking about kids starting at age 6 or 7 starting to play travel ball.
When kids are starting to play travel ball at those young ages, there are a lot of things that can be considered negative. My biggest concern for these young kids is the potential overuse of pitching. If you are playing rec ball and only play 20-25 games in the spring and 10-15 games in the fall, you will not pitch nearly as much as when you are playing 60-70 games in the spring and another 25-30 in the fall. If a kid starts pitching at 8 years old and is a pitcher right up to HS, that kid will have a ton of use on his young arm. I think too much.
Everyone playing travel ball at these young ages talks about the lack of competition in rec ball. A big part of that is because there are so many people playing travel. And not only the best of the best. There are major teams, AAA teams, AA teams and A teams. Why in the world would there be teams playing AA and A travel, when if all those players played rec, it would be fairly competitive? Because they want to say they play travel. And that is asking for trouble IMO.
So, yes, travel can be bad. But as the kids get older, and depending on their goals, it can become beneficial and eventually necessary. As far as the odds of playing at the next level, I am not one to squash anyone's dreams. Are some kids/parents delusional? Probably, but who knows what may happen in the future with maturity and growth. As long as a kid has the dream, let him pursue it. But travel ball below a certain age is certainly not necessary to do that and could be harmful.
JMHO.
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Statistics say that 90% of the people posting HERE will not see their kids get played to play.
I don't believe that statistics say that.
The stats "may" say that only 10-11% of those who play sports will play college sports but it doesn't say that 10-11% of the posters' children on this site will be the % that plays college sports. I have no idea of what that percentage would be but I wouldn't be surprised if it is 50% or greater.
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Travelball, club, whatever you call it is bad for sports and bad for kids... here's why. Kids should be kids, let's not forget that most of the players we are talking about were sleeping with teddy bears five years ago. I can't get my daughter out of bed for school right now because we spent a total of 24 hours traveling to, and playing in a soccer tournament this weekend. My boy (who is a phenomenal pitcher) wants to quit because his last season was daddy ball at its best and he too is burned out having spent every weekend playing tournaments and not playing with friends. Most of these kids will NOT play college and will NOT get scholarships. Their memories of sports when they grow up will NOT be fond... exhaustion, sitting in cars for hours, overbearing daddys, ridiculously intense coaches who want to win at any cost so they can increase their roster (bottom line) next year. It's a puppy mill of players. Not to mention repetitive motion and other injuries. Most will quit by age 15. And, you are robbing rec of all their good players, the result? Rec leagues are having trouble fielding teams and getting fields to play on. My local LL could only get together enough kids for 4 teams for fall ball this year (at all ages), so we are robbing the mediocre kids of their chance to play ball too. In the long run, big picture, it's bad for kids and bad for sports. You people need to keep parenting in perspective.
Some true. A lot BS.
Rec ball and LL has created its own demise. Too many nonsense rules and too political. Rec ball is daddy ball on steroids. They have driven many people away.
Here's the thing. The first order of business is to get your kid to high school with the skills to make the team (and hopefully contribute). As parents we provide that guidance. In many cases, definitely not all, "travel" ball helps with that. After that, it is up to them -- and many will not play beyond HS. So what.
Most join "travel" for advancement. It starts with better coaching and ends with more consistent competition. That is not to say every "travel" team has either. There are way too many PO dad teams, which are nothing more than glorified rec teams. So you need to do your homework.
As for the time commitment, it certainly is a concern. But it is a great life lesson about "sacrifice" and commitment. He'll get upset when he has to miss the "big party" but he gets over it after he finds out it wasn't that good. We make sure he has enough hanging around with friends time.
I am glad we have done it. Did we miss some things? Yes. But we gained many more.
Ok, this statement is for everybody... Ask your kids in 15 years if it was worth it, then ask them if they will steer their kid, if talented enough, toward a club team. When you're at your next tournament, look around, see if everybody is really having fun. When was the last time you took your son camping, fishing, biking, or something else he likes to do? Or does he do anything else? Commitment is a valuable lesson, but so is being well-rounded.In America we put everything on steroids. Literally, look at steroids in HS sports. If I build a 500hp hot rod, you build one with 800hp... We're obsessed with how many gold medals we win at the Olympics. It's not healthy. But that's just my opinion, and you now what they say about those...
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college. Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective.
Greg ... You need to keep this board in perspective. The posters on this board are mostly the parents of pro players, college players and all conference, if not all state high school players. It's the parents of kids who have been there and done it (got to college ball) and those who likely will get there. This isn't a board of delusional LL dads.
You're funny, I wonder if you would say that to my face.
Wow, Greg! get enough fiber in your diet? RJM was only pointing out that you seem to have posted without considering your audience. Your post seemed to be aimed at dillusional LL parents, of which few can be found here. That's all. Now, if you want RJM to be offensive, hang around. He's perfectly capable of doing so. 
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college. Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective.
Greg ... You need to keep this board in perspective. The posters on this board are mostly the parents of pro players, college players and all conference, if not all state high school players. It's the parents of kids who have been there and done it (got to college ball) and those who likely will get there. This isn't a board of delusional LL dads.
You're funny, I wonder if you would say that to my face.
Wow, Greg! get enough fiber in your diet? RJM was only pointing out that you seem to have posted without considering your audience. Your post seemed to be aimed at dillusional LL parents, of which few can be found here. That's all. Now, if you want RJM to be offensive, hang around. He's perfectly capable of doing so.
Haha, we already made amends, I think. Please note the first post here is about 12-year olds. I'll shut up now... Have a great day.
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Ok, this statement is for everybody... Ask your kids in 15 years if it was worth it, then ask them if they will steer their kid, if talented enough, toward a club team. When you're at your next tournament, look around, see if everybody is really having fun. When was the last time you took your son camping, fishing, biking, or something else he likes to do? Or does he do anything else? Commitment is a valuable lesson, but so is being well-rounded.In America we put everything on steroids. Literally, look at steroids in HS sports. If I build a 500hp hot rod, you build one with 800hp... We're obsessed with how many gold medals we win at the Olympics. It's not healthy. But that's just my opinion, and you now what they say about those...
Actually took him fishing last Saturday. He didn't catch anything.
I think most people are having fun at the tournaments. And a lot of the fun is after the games. He'll think it is worth it. At his young age, he has accomplished more than a lot of his friends.
I think many of the players in rec ball aren't having fun. Many are there because mom/dad force them to be there. They drop them off and maybe they come back (been there waiting for dad to pick up little Johnny). The players who are "serous" get upset because their first baseman can't catch (but has to play there) or the kid who never shows up for practice gets to play equal time. The parents are upset because the dad "coach" knows nothing about baseball and the kid umpire can't get anything right. And then there is the 25-20 game with only 1 hit that left the infield. Most of the runs are scored on walks and "steals" of home. Where do I sign up! 
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Ok, this statement is for everybody... Ask your kids in 15 years if it was worth it, then ask them if they will steer their kid, if talented enough, toward a club team. When you're at your next tournament, look around, see if everybody is really having fun. When was the last time you took your son camping, fishing, biking, or something else he likes to do? Or does he do anything else? Commitment is a valuable lesson, but so is being well-rounded.In America we put everything on steroids. Literally, look at steroids in HS sports. If I build a 500hp hot rod, you build one with 800hp... We're obsessed with how many gold medals we win at the Olympics. It's not healthy. But that's just my opinion, and you now what they say about those...
Actually took him fishing last Saturday. He didn't catch anything.
I think most people are having fun at the tournaments. And a lot of the fun is after the games. He'll think it is worth it. At his young age, he has accomplished more than a lot of his friends.
I think many of the players in rec ball aren't having fun. Many are there because mom/dad force them to be there. They drop them off and maybe they come back (been there waiting for dad to pick up little Johnny). The players who are "serous" get upset because their first baseman can't catch (but has to play there) or the kid who never shows up for practice gets to play equal time. The parents are upset because the dad "coach" knows nothing about baseball and the kid umpire can't get anything right. And then there is the 25-20 game with only 1 hit that left the infield. Most of the runs are scored on walks and "steals" of home. Where do I sign up!
This is my impression, as well. After moving to a small, isolated community, this year was the first that my son and I have been associated with league ball since he was seven (he's 14 now). I coached a Bbe Ruth team (13-15yo's) and there were more than one kid in that age group still playing becaus the parents insisted they had to have something to do during the summer. i assume, at the lower ages, that feeling is even more prevelant.
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Ok, this statement is for everybody... Ask your kids in 15 years if it was worth it, then ask them if they will steer their kid, if talented enough, toward a club team. When you're at your next tournament, look around, see if everybody is really having fun. When was the last time you took your son camping, fishing, biking, or something else he likes to do? Or does he do anything else? Commitment is a valuable lesson, but so is being well-rounded.In America we put everything on steroids. Literally, look at steroids in HS sports. If I build a 500hp hot rod, you build one with 800hp... We're obsessed with how many gold medals we win at the Olympics. It's not healthy. But that's just my opinion, and you now what they say about those...
Why can't a kid play competitive travel ball and still be well rounded? My son started playing travel ball over rec ball because it was more fun. He enjoyed (and still enjoys) playing with kids that were at his skill level. People tell me my son is very talented. He is a high school sophomore who was the only freshman to make his varsity team last year. Yes, that took a lot of work. And I beleive he really enjoys putting in the effort. But he still does things outside of baseball. For example, we spent this weekend on the lake. He was out on a jet ski all day. On the drive home, we were talking about our plans for the school break at New Years. We have a few choices: Go visit family up north. Stay around home and hang out with friends, or go to Florida for a PG showcase. If it was up to him, I would be making reservations for Florida. (And we still may. Plenty of time to decide.)
My point is, it does not have to be baseball or everything else. You can play competitive travel ball and still have other interests. And if you think travel ball is time consuming, high school ball truly does take every free moment. So, should these boys not play high school ball?
Golfman, I'm truly sorry your kids had such poor rec experiences. We were fortunate in that our kids really enjoyed playing rec soccer, CYO basketball, and Little League in our area. Though each did go on to play at least one of those sports in a more competitive AAU or travel environment, their rec experiences were like nothing you describe. Our local Little League, though it has its share of politics, like all baseball organizations at any level, is a vibrant and fun place, and all divisions of play Majors and below are at 100% capacity every year. Most local kids who play travel keep playing there as well through 12U; they like playing with their friends. The few who do not often show up to see their friends play. And lots and lots of kids get their parents to drop them at the park after practice when they don't have a game so that they can hang out with their pals. It's truly a special place and I'm sure my kids will remember it fondly for the rest of their lives. I know that I will.
There are all kinds of travel ball before the level where kids are playing showcases. It's impossible to lump them into one category of travel ball and condemn it or praise it.
At the preteen level there's academy based travel and dad coached travel. Sometimes parents find coaches without kids to coach their dad administrated travel team. There are community based teams. There are rec all star teams that proceed into travel. There are teams that are league only, tournament only and a cross breed of the two. There are programs with recruiting. There are programs with boundaries.
I don't believe where a kid plays, rec, travel or any form of travel above as a preteen has a bearing on whether or not he will play high school or college ball. What matters in the preteen years is instruction on fundamentals that will carry over to the full size field, building a passion for the game and learning how to compete.
The delusion at the preteen level is believing because a kid is a preteen stud it will continue all the way through to high school and college. Although there are things to look for assuming the kid maintains the passion and work ethic. The other delusion is spending thousands on lesson and an academy team with the delusion talent can be purchased.
I felt fortunate LL and Ripken ball in our area remained strong and still is. My son's primary ball was Ripken, then LL when we moved and all stars. But he did play some travel as a secondary team. At nine and ten the Ripken all star team also played in Ripken and LL weekend invitationals from mid June to the end of July. At eleven and twelve his LL all star teammates plus a few more (as to not break the rules) played in a USSSA Sunday doubleheader league concurrently with the LL season. All stars played into August both years. We had all August for vacation. School didn't start until after Labor Day.
The middle school years present a new issue. The same kinds of travel teams exist as preteen ball. I found with the exception of one academy organization most weren't getting the kind of player where I felt they were doing anything more than taking parent's money on a dream. The kids weren't making the showcase teams when they got older. Even on that one a poster here told me only four kids from the 13u team made the 16u team.
If you see your kid as a potential high school player you have to look at the instruction and coaching players get from the local Jr Legion, Babe Ruth, Connie Mack, etc. programs. I didn't have a comfort level with any of these programs in our area. I formed a travel team that was not costly with three other coaches who also played college ball and had youth baseball coaching experience. Our objective was to select LL and Ripken all stars from the area we felt had potential to play high school ball and provide instruction, polish and a competitive environment. Once again we finished by the end of July and had August free for vacation.
For the most part the better 13u and 14u travel teams were those coached by dads with baseball experience. These teams were not expensive. From 13u to 16u ours was $500 to 600 for ten summer tournaments. When we did fall ball in 16u that was $300 for five tournaments.
Situations differ in various areas of the country. As we get to showcasing the world all comes together with the same objective so I'm not going to get into that.
Does a kid have to play showcase tournament ball? No. But at the least he should do some individual showcases. Waiting at the home field to be discovered isn't the best idea except for can't miss studs who will get asked to play for a travel team anyway.
Are there delusional parents? Sure they exist at all ages. There seem to be a lot less as the players age through the journey.
Are there academies and instructors you could say are stealing money? Well, maybe they aren't earning it and selling a false set of goods and services. But it's on the players and parents to do the research.
As a kid I came through LL, Babe Ruth and Legion ball. They were all great experiences. But after LL the road I took was not the right road for my son. Times change. Circumstances vary from region to region.
This post is certainly long winded. But I couldn't do it any other way without leaving a lot of holes. Even so, there will be others with different circumstances who will have a different experience and disagree.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by RJM:
I'm thinking the poster who brought this thread back to life must have joined and posted before understanding what this board is all about. Greg, this board is about getting kids to college ball. It's about kids talented enough to get there.
Fewer than 11% of kids who play sports will play in college. Fewer than 11% of senior NCAA baseball players will get paid to play. All I'm saying is (Dads)... keep it in perspective.
Greg ... You need to keep this board in perspective. The posters on this board are mostly the parents of pro players, college players and all conference, if not all state high school players. It's the parents of kids who have been there and done it (got to college ball) and those who likely will get there. This isn't a board of delusional LL dads.
You're funny, I wonder if you would say that to my face.
Wow, Greg! get enough fiber in your diet? RJM was only pointing out that you seem to have posted without considering your audience. Your post seemed to be aimed at dillusional LL parents, of which few can be found here. That's all. Now, if you want RJM to be offensive, hang around. He's perfectly capable of doing so.
LOL!
Originally Posted by Dadofa17:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Ok, this statement is for everybody... Ask your kids in 15 years if it was worth it, then ask them if they will steer their kid, if talented enough, toward a club team. When you're at your next tournament, look around, see if everybody is really having fun. When was the last time you took your son camping, fishing, biking, or something else he likes to do? Or does he do anything else? Commitment is a valuable lesson, but so is being well-rounded.In America we put everything on steroids. Literally, look at steroids in HS sports. If I build a 500hp hot rod, you build one with 800hp... We're obsessed with how many gold medals we win at the Olympics. It's not healthy. But that's just my opinion, and you now what they say about those...
Why can't a kid play competitive travel ball and still be well rounded? My son started playing travel ball over rec ball because it was more fun. He enjoyed (and still enjoys) playing with kids that were at his skill level. People tell me my son is very talented. He is a high school sophomore who was the only freshman to make his varsity team last year. Yes, that took a lot of work. And I beleive he really enjoys putting in the effort. But he still does things outside of baseball. For example, we spent this weekend on the lake. He was out on a jet ski all day. On the drive home, we were talking about our plans for the school break at New Years. We have a few choices: Go visit family up north. Stay around home and hang out with friends, or go to Florida for a PG showcase. If it was up to him, I would be making reservations for Florida. (And we still may. Plenty of time to decide.)
My point is, it does not have to be baseball or everything else. You can play competitive travel ball and still have other interests. And if you think travel ball is time consuming, high school ball truly does take every free moment. So, should these boys not play high school ball?
You are not typical. I was at a (soccer) tournament yesterday and saw a Dad chewing out his kid and said kid crying, a kid telling his coach that the ref said they weren't getting calls because of said coach's conduct - to which the coach replied "question is, why are you talking to the ref," and two separate coaches yelling at kids and jumping around like monkeys on the sidelines during the game... Sheesh... Really? Including drive time we spent 18 hours consumed by this tournament. And I've spent around $1300 dollars this season... My son just finished travel baseball, same stories, more money. For what? All because of the greed for money and glory. I stand by my statement, it's a puppy mill for sports.
Agreed dadofa 17.
We, they have tons of time to do other things. The weekends are generally baseball, but not the weekdays.
Depending on the tournament location, if its somewhat local, it's only a few hours on that weekend day.
Everyday 2016 was serious about baseball and didn't enjoy playing with kids who weren't. Period!
Just came back from a college camp this weekend and still after years of playing, kid was pretty excited he did well and kept pulling off his earphones to tell me about how good the hit he had felt, telling about his play in the infield etc...
Sure there's times when he misses a 4th of July party, it's simply called sacrifice and it's a good builder of character.
And my guess is most of the people, dads on this board have kids who are very good.
No site has educated me more than this one.
In fact when the recruiter at the camp talked to the kids and their parents for 30 minutes, I already knew everything he had to say.
btw - I'll ask my kid tonight if he will steer his kids to play.
Bet he will!
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Originally Posted by Dadofa17:
Originally Posted by Greg65:
Ok, this statement is for everybody... Ask your kids in 15 years if it was worth it, then ask them if they will steer their kid, if talented enough, toward a club team. When you're at your next tournament, look around, see if everybody is really having fun. When was the last time you took your son camping, fishing, biking, or something else he likes to do? Or does he do anything else? Commitment is a valuable lesson, but so is being well-rounded.In America we put everything on steroids. Literally, look at steroids in HS sports. If I build a 500hp hot rod, you build one with 800hp... We're obsessed with how many gold medals we win at the Olympics. It's not healthy. But that's just my opinion, and you now what they say about those...
Why can't a kid play competitive travel ball and still be well rounded? My son started playing travel ball over rec ball because it was more fun. He enjoyed (and still enjoys) playing with kids that were at his skill level. People tell me my son is very talented. He is a high school sophomore who was the only freshman to make his varsity team last year. Yes, that took a lot of work. And I beleive he really enjoys putting in the effort. But he still does things outside of baseball. For example, we spent this weekend on the lake. He was out on a jet ski all day. On the drive home, we were talking about our plans for the school break at New Years. We have a few choices: Go visit family up north. Stay around home and hang out with friends, or go to Florida for a PG showcase. If it was up to him, I would be making reservations for Florida. (And we still may. Plenty of time to decide.)
My point is, it does not have to be baseball or everything else. You can play competitive travel ball and still have other interests. And if you think travel ball is time consuming, high school ball truly does take every free moment. So, should these boys not play high school ball?
You are not typical. I was at a (soccer) tournament yesterday and saw a Dad chewing out his kid and said kid crying, a kid telling his coach that the ref said they weren't getting calls because of said coach's conduct - to which the coach replied "question is, why are you talking to the ref," and two separate coaches yelling at kids and jumping around like monkeys on the sidelines during the game... Sheesh... Really? Including drive time we spent 18 hours consumed by this tournament. And I've spent around $1300 dollars this season... My son just finished travel baseball, same stories, more money. For what? All because of the greed for money and glory. I stand by my statement, it's a puppy mill for sports.
I'm sensing something didn't go well this weekend.
My kids had great travel ball experiences in multiple sports. None of them were excessively expensive. None involved long trips until showcases. The key is doing the research before jumping in. I had my kids pass on what I felt were the wrong situations.
Re: July 4th - Travel ball didn't exist when I played. I had a game every July 4th from LL through college summer ball. In Legion and college summer ball it was usually a doubleheader.
Can't speak for others, but my son hunts, fishes, camps, picks morel mushrooms, plays basketball, hangs with his buddies, and plays +/- 70 baseball games a year. The only time I hear him complain is after 2-3 weeks of downtime (summer/winter break).