One thing I can’t figure out is can travel programs can be all that profitable and have paid staff (not including coaches). Let’s say the program has 15 teams and a few additional other teams licensing the name. Do player and licensing fees cover expenses? I suppose some programs have sponsors or endorsements.Tryout fees? Or others have financial ties to facilities or an academy. Btw, I am in or looking to be in the business.
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I think I would rather smash my head into the wall for 10 years before entertaining this as a business venture.
Profits vs headaches vs time vs returns in countless other fields... pass
I will say this nicely. If you aren't involved enough in this to know the answers to these questions, how will you get involved? I'm guessing almost every parent of a top level player knows where the money comes from and how it is generated. Every one that I know that owns a facility, top level program, and such has a strong tie to baseball by either playing at a high level or coaching at a high level. Very rarely does someone what to play for someone who is not at that level.
DC;
please make donation to this web site and then I can send you the formula for evaluation and investigation.
Bob
"Zip Code Games"
Typo. I am just a parent. Not at all in or want to running a team.
The money is in running the tournaments, i.e. PerfectGame, FiveTool, PBR. And in the hotels, airlines, rental cars.
No money in coaching or running travel teams.
I disagree with Speed Demon to some extent. It does not happen unless you own your own facilities and make your players pay you or others to get their training. You also have to have a lot of teams but I can guarantee you that any coach or travel organization that has 15 teams is making good money if they are doing it right. And any organization that has 15 teams also is running their own tournaments so you are charging players on your team to play in these tournaments that are not really costing your team any money. Plus you have a new uniform every spring, summer, and fall so that they have to buy all of their stuff from you and you do it cheap because you do it in bulk.
You will not find an organizational owner not driving a nice vehicle and staying in nice hotels and wearing nice clothes and all of it is paid for by the organization so it does not cost you out of pocket.
I know one who built a 3/2 very nice apartment on the backside of his complex so he doesn't pay for it either.
@PitchingFan is 100% correct. The big orgs make a lot of money for whoever owns the org. Just do the math.
@PitchingFan posted:I disagree with Speed Demon to some extent. It does not happen unless you own your own facilities and make your players pay you or others to get their training. You also have to have a lot of teams but I can guarantee you that any coach or travel organization that has 15 teams is making good money if they are doing it right. And any organization that has 15 teams also is running their own tournaments so you are charging players on your team to play in these tournaments that are not really costing your team any money. Plus you have a new uniform every spring, summer, and fall so that they have to buy all of their stuff from you and you do it cheap because you do it in bulk.
You will not find an organizational owner not driving a nice vehicle and staying in nice hotels and wearing nice clothes and all of it is paid for by the organization so it does not cost you out of pocket.
I know one who built a 3/2 very nice apartment on the backside of his complex so he doesn't pay for it either.
Agree!
If you can develop a Canes-type franchise, or own a gym next to a batting facility where you can charge players and the public for both, or if you run your own local tournaments, you have a chance to make a living.
To me, those seem like different businesses (franchisor, facility owner, tournament owner/director) than a TB org owner. Most 4-5 team orgs do not make much money.
I have a friend who has a franchise of a national team. Runs practices at the local city park for ages 8-18u. I think he clears around $25-30k 3 times a year (spring, summer, fall). It's not a lot, but not bad for a guy that just wants to coach baseball for a living and doesn't really have any other marketable skills.
DC;
you will need $5 million in liability insurance.
Bob
@PitchingFan posted:I disagree with Speed Demon to some extent. It does not happen unless you own your own facilities and make your players pay you or others to get their training. You also have to have a lot of teams but I can guarantee you that any coach or travel organization that has 15 teams is making good money if they are doing it right. And any organization that has 15 teams also is running their own tournaments so you are charging players on your team to play in these tournaments that are not really costing your team any money. Plus you have a new uniform every spring, summer, and fall so that they have to buy all of their stuff from you and you do it cheap because you do it in bulk.
You will not find an organizational owner not driving a nice vehicle and staying in nice hotels and wearing nice clothes and all of it is paid for by the organization so it does not cost you out of pocket.
I know one who built a 3/2 very nice apartment on the backside of his complex so he doesn't pay for it either.
If you have management skills to run 15 team organization you are still missing out on way way more profitable enterprises IMO
do the mat math is correct, you are essentially running 300 person organization
I'd bet many orgs make just as much money on lessons than they do from the teams. The org my sons are with has 7 cages plus a pitching area, and there's rarely more than 1 free cage during 4pm-10pm with all the private lessons going on. Most players from the org get lessons, plus tons from other teams. I imagine the org gets half & the instructor gets half.
There are a lot of non profit leaders who could make a lot more money doing something other than what they do.
But this is a for profit enterprise.
@adbono posted:@PitchingFan is 100% correct. The big orgs make a lot of money for whoever owns the org. Just do the math.
Sons college roommate was asked to start a travel team with the money from a wealthy attorney in our area in South Florida, giving sons friend a piece of the pie. The one team has grown to every grade level.
That was about 6,7 years ago. The organization is now huge, with a state of the art training center for baseball and now includes girls soccer. He assembled a great staff consisting of former pro guys. Their inaugural players are now entering college. I have seen the training center and it's impressive.
My point, sons friend does well but the guy making the money is the one who had the money to start the business!
If you want to be successful you need a successful business man or women behind you.
TerribleBPThrower can verify.
My point old_school is a lot of people are not looking to make the most money they can. Guys like me who have a masters degree that is equivalent to most doctorates could make a lot of money running a company but do what we love and are called to do. There are a lot of people in the world that are not chasing the money. The guys who run organizations like Canes and others do it because they love baseball and dealing with kids. They could make a lot more somewhere else but they are doing what they love. Every school teacher is doing it for the love not the money. Administrators may be a different situation but teachers could make a lot more other places including McDonalds and WalMart.
This podcast from the guy who wrote the How America Sold Out Little League article touches on economics. He worked for a regional travel program and talks about regional/local owners who can take $600k/year. That math makes sense to me. Like any business/industry, some owners will make a lot more than others. You have guys making very little, guys getting by, guys who have wired it up and made a real business. But the money is there. Not just for the national programs.
Edit: The guy who runs the TB program my son participated in was definitely in it for the love of developing players, and the game. He runs a small business with all of the risk, hassles, ups and downs that come with it. I hope he makes money and like any small business owner in America has the chance to create wealth if he's successful. I can do the math on that; it checks out for me financially and otherwise.
Well pitching fan I guess since the title of the thread was profits that would be relevant to the man’s question
It’s easy to become obsessive about sports and specifically youth sports if you’re a parent of a successful athlete, ergo this site…
My perspective is baseball and swimming, and swimming doesn’t grab hold of the athletes and parents anything like baseball. Maybe swimming is more definable, your times define your college options. Or maybe it’s because there’s no pro job possibility at the end of the amateur run. There’s always politics, but in swimming I never saw a group of dads standing away from the other parents critiquing the coach or lamenting why that kid is swimming that event (LOL). Swimming is also a long wait to watch your kid compete for a few minutes…
Whatever the reason, baseball is different; athletes, parents and coaches seem to get sucked into baseball vortex – heaven forbid you’re the former athlete, parent, and coach trifecta! Even former pro players are not vortex immune: In Tomball Texas you could go to Charlie Hayes’ Big-League Academy and watch Charlie, Jessie Barfield, and Mike Jackson work lessons in adjoining tunnels (better have thick skin, because they didn’t mince words). Something like 45+ years of MLB experience between them, pretty sure they’d be doing something else if it weren’t profitable. However, all three are members of the former athlete, parent, and coach trifecta, so maybe the pull to stay in the game is too strong… Whatever the case, Charlie’s son Ke’Bryan is with the Pirates and inked a $70M contract at 25 years old, so I’m sure there are no regrets.
Hayes’ facility aside, I know 4 dads, all former college players, of talented baseball players that put teams together for their sons (501c non-profits). All 4 morphed into organizations, with 2 still in existence 8 years after their sons finished HS (THZ (The Hitting Zone) and CSR (Cotton Sports Ranch). Are they profitable? No clue...
However, in Texas with the sheer number of organizations; Banditos, D-BAT, Stix, Mizuno, Hunter Pence, Rawlings, DeMarini, Kyle Chapman, Houston Heat are just a few I can remember, somebody must be turning a profit.
@JucoDad posted:It’s easy to become obsessive about sports and specifically youth sports if you’re a parent of a successful athlete, ergo this site…
My perspective is baseball and swimming, and swimming doesn’t grab hold of the athletes and parents anything like baseball. Maybe swimming is more definable, your times define your college options. Or maybe it’s because there’s no pro job possibility at the end of the amateur run. There’s always politics, but in swimming I never saw a group of dads standing away from the other parents critiquing the coach or lamenting why that kid is swimming that event (LOL). Swimming is also a long wait to watch your kid compete for a few minutes…
Whatever the reason, baseball is different; athletes, parents and coaches seem to get sucked into baseball vortex – heaven forbid you’re the former athlete, parent, and coach trifecta! Even former pro players are not vortex immune: In Tomball Texas you could go to Charlie Hayes’ Big-League Academy and watch Charlie, Jessie Barfield, and Mike Jackson work lessons in adjoining tunnels (better have thick skin, because they didn’t mince words). Something like 45+ years of MLB experience between them, pretty sure they’d be doing something else if it weren’t profitable. However, all three are members of the former athlete, parent, and coach trifecta, so maybe the pull to stay in the game is too strong… Whatever the case, Charlie’s son Ke’Bryan is with the Pirates and inked a $70M contract at 25 years old, so I’m sure there are no regrets.
Hayes’ facility aside, I know 4 dads, all former college players, of talented baseball players that put teams together for their sons (501c non-profits). All 4 morphed into organizations, with 2 still in existence 8 years after their sons finished HS (THZ (The Hitting Zone) and CSR (Cotton Sports Ranch). Are they profitable? No clue...
However, in Texas with the sheer number of organizations; Banditos, D-BAT, Stix, Mizuno, Hunter Pence, Rawlings, DeMarini, Kyle Chapman, Houston Heat are just a few I can remember, somebody must be turning a profit.
I would agree, as I have a swimmer too. I think it's concrete reality for parents to easily know what level of swimmer they have based on time results. It's the same with runners. It's also easier to know in something like tennis because it's one vs one. In baseball though it's a lot more difficult for a parent to grasp their child's ability. A unathletic kid can play on a baseball team and not look completely terrible because they may never see the ball while in the field and players strike out all the time. Also we all know those showcase warriors out there who can produce spectacular numbers, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're a great ball player. So I think the difficulty of evaluating a player's ability and also their projectability sort of fuels the drama that seems to occur with baseball as compared to other youth sports. That's just my opinion though.
@JucoDad & @Momball11, once you get past the obvious superstars (less than 1%) evaluating baseball talent is difficult. There are a lot of players that range from very good to good that aren’t separated by a big differential in skill and/or ability. Most parents can not accurately discern the pecking order. Especially if their child is in the mix. FWIW, a lot of HS coaches aren’t that good at it either. D1 coaches have admitted that they miss on half their freshman class recruits and that’s why they bring in twice as many as they intend to keep. Point being, the grading, judging, and culling is all done on a subjective basis - ranging from somewhat to very. This lends itself to lots of opinions being expressed. Especially by parents. In the stands. In the car. In the parking lot. Anywhere there is an ear to listen. Literally everyone that likes baseball takes pride in what they think they know about the game. I have spent time with college coaches that don’t know hardly a thing about pitching. Some others know pitching but not hitting. If guys that have played at a high level, and coach for a living, find it difficult to evaluate players that should tell everyone else a lot. It’s a rare parent that has a good handle on their own kid’s ability. IMO a lot of baseball travel orgs take advantage of this. False praise and false promises go a long way when that’s what a parent wants to hear. Stack up enough of that and you have a profitable venture. Not all orgs do this but there are more in it for the wrong reason ($) than there are in it for the right reasons. I coached over 20 seasons of travel ball and my opinions have been formed based on my own personal experience. Not what I read on Twitter.
Where we lived were four country clubs and several swims clubs within the school district boundaries. My kids weren't swimmers. But I heard plenty of stories about swim parents.
Ome thing that is different is a lot of baseball is subjective versus a stopwatch doesn’t lie. A friend had one kid playing baseball and one running track. He said he could accurately gauge his track son was getting a fair shake.
Swimming is one thing - one pool, one stroke at a time, one length at a time, one clock for all participants. Easy to quantify. Easy to see. Who's ahead and who's behind?
Baseball is a mess - 9 on defense, one on offense to start, hitting, running, throwing, pitching, fielding, where does the ball go? who's responsible for it? where to throw it? how many different pitches? was that a strike or was it framed? And young men don't fully mature until their 20s. I pity college baseball recruiting coordinators. Early recruiting/early commitments are risky!
@SpeedDemon posted:Swimming is one thing - one pool, one stroke at a time, one length at a time, one clock for all participants. Easy to quantify. Easy to see. Who's ahead and who's behind?
Baseball is a mess - 9 on defense, one on offense to start, hitting, running, throwing, pitching, fielding, where does the ball go? who's responsible for it? where to throw it? how many different pitches? was that a strike or was it framed? And young men don't fully mature until their 20s. I pity college baseball recruiting coordinators. Early recruiting/early commitments are risky!
In spite of my better judgment I’m going to tag onto this as you are on a very good track. Compound everything you just said and add this to the mix. RC’s are often the youngest, most inexperienced member of the college coaching staff. Many were players just a year or two before. How much can they possibly know about how to evaluate talent? How good at it can they be?? The answers are often not much and not very. It takes a few years to be any good at it.
@SpeedDemon posted:Swimming is one thing - one pool, one stroke at a time, one length at a time, one clock for all participants. Easy to quantify. Easy to see. Who's ahead and who's behind?
Baseball is a mess - 9 on defense, one on offense to start, hitting, running, throwing, pitching, fielding, where does the ball go? who's responsible for it? where to throw it? how many different pitches? was that a strike or was it framed? And young men don't fully mature until their 20s. I pity college baseball recruiting coordinators. Early recruiting/early commitments are risky!
I completely agree. It's so fascinating how some mature quicker than others. My HS son has had younger teammates that shave every day, while he only shaves once a month. I met my husband when he was 15. He grew an additional 2-inches after he graduated HS.
Thinking about the boys that I've seen over the years is interesting. The natural athletes are still athletic, but how much growth they've had over the years really depends on their work ethic. There's some boys that were good ball players at a young age, but we figured would eventually become just okay players. These boys were good because they were growing quicker/early as compared to their peers, but eventually their peers caught up. Or possibly they were good, but they didn't have the right mentality/work ethic and eventually they lost interest or did not progress from lack of practice. Others just didn't have the quickness to keep up when the game became faster paced.
College recruiters would have an easier time if they could track players from an early age, but I imagine they start following a kid once they get on their radar. Definitely a difficult job.
Nothing screams “I’m through growing” quite like a full beard on a 14 year old.
many guys who started the local programs and might have cared, now have seen their own kid go to college or just finish college and have decided to cash out to the national organizations, or at least sell the ownership and/or building and stay around to transition and make it seem like nothing will change. Trust me 3Step, API, NXT aren't buying up all these local programs because they like kids, they are buying a captured market share to buy their products... there is a ton of profit to be made when you have an organization that can run the financials and doesn't feel guilty about charging what the market can bare, for "youth baseball" (in some cases $4-7K easy). Not to mention buying up all the programs so there is no longer the small ones charging less than half of what they are. You play for them, or you play for no-one.
The money they pay coaches is basically entry level job type money, which you cannot raise a family on or support a healthy lifestyle, Example Director of Player Development ($35K), you can imagine what the third tier level 9u coach is making. So it's a temporary job for many of the top young coaches until they find a job in their major or if baseball is their thing, a paid position at the local college, with dream of a head coaching job sometime. I've seen some leave because their wives or fiancé are asking when they are going to get a grown up job.
Even Bo Jackson’s scouting report ends in “What a shame this kid was.”
@PTWood posted:Even Bo Jackson’s scouting report ends in “What a shame this kid was.”
wasn't it pretty close to spot on? as great of player as he was it was for short time frame and below the level possible. Probably still worth a first rounder but tremendous upside never realized.
@SpeedDemon said (among other things), “I pity college baseball recruiting coordinators”
As a way to illustrate her point I want to suggest a challenge to anyone willing to take it. Go to a youth baseball game (HS, 15u, or 16u) that features 2 teams you know absolutely nothing about. Don’t do any research and don’t get information from parents in the stands. Watch the game a try to determine who should be recruited, what position they should be recruited for, and why. It will not take long for you to understand how difficult that is to do. And when you understand the difficulty you will realize how absurd it is that some parents expect their son to be “discovered” at 16u WWBA.
@RJM posted:Or a 5'9" dad standing next to him.
Don't forget about mom. Seen more than few 5'7" (maybe even shorter) dads with 6'2"+ 14-15yo's that I think must be adopted. Then I see mom at 5'10" to 6'. At least 2 like that on son's HS team!
@GratefulNTXlurker posted:Don't forget about mom. Seen more than few 5'7" (maybe even shorter) dads with 6'2"+ 14-15yo's that I think must be adopted. Then I see mom at 5'10" to 6'. At least 2 like that on son's HS team!
I thought about this. One of my son’s high school teammates was 6’2” despite a 5’9” dad. He has a 5’9” mother. Boys will typically grow to be four to six inches taller than their mother.* But mothers aren’t usually hanging on the fence like dads at tournaments and showcases. They’re sitting in the stands or in their beach chairs.
I stopped coaching when my son played 17u. The program didn’t allow dad coaches regardless of their coaching reputation. Besides, my son was tuning me out in 16u. I probably spent more time chatting with mothers. I wasn’t a fence clinging, pacing the sidelines dad. I had this crazy idea it would all work out whether I got nervous or not.
* I said “typically.” Save all the anecdotal exceptions.
My kids are *a lot* taller than me. Like they may be the mailman's kids....This was back in summer 2021, they are both a little bigger now.
@nycdad posted:My kids are *a lot* taller than me. Like they may be the mailman's kids....This was back in summer 2021, they are both a little bigger now.
They look like a couple of ball players!
My ex is almost 5'3" and I'm 6'6", our two boys are 6' and 6'5"... Genetics are funny, I share many traits with both, but there's very little cross over. It's like they got the opposite 13 pairs of chromosomes, although they say that's not possible.
I was a monster by 13, and able to drink in bars at 15 (not advisable, just a fact) however, my 6'5" ballplayer didn't really take off in height until about 15. Photos below, me at 13 with my 12 year old cousin, yep facial hair... Trev at 13 and 15.
I was certainly an early bloomer (all those hormones in milk at the time?) and Trev was a late bloomer, one of the mysteries of the universe... Growth spurts like this happen, but I think they're pretty rare.
@JucoDad 😲 .... You and your cousin look like a father / son photo!..... I would be giving you my lunch money everyday for precautionary measures.
@DaddyBaller posted:@JucoDad 😲 .... You and your cousin look like a father / son photo!..... I would be giving you my lunch money everyday for precautionary measures.
It's not a very flattering photo, and it's about the age I got a few nicknames: Herman, Lurch, Bigfoot, Yeti to name a few... I've heard my share of "You Rang?" shouted out in the halls. lol!
By 16 (below, lousy photo) I was 6'5" and buying kegs for parties. I guess my point is that growth spurts happen at different times for different kids, but my dad was 6'3" and my mother was 5'11" and my growth was early. I'm 6'6" and Trev's mom is 5'3" and his growth came late, but with my height it's not unreasonable.
I've seen lots of tall kids with shorter parents, but I've never seen a kid with shorter parents have an unusual growth spurt late in adolescence (very limited sample size and not scientific), but I suppose it could happen.
