One thing I can’t figure out is can travel programs can be all that profitable and have paid staff (not including coaches). Let’s say the program has 15 teams and a few additional other teams licensing the name. Do player and licensing fees cover expenses? I suppose some programs have sponsors or endorsements.Tryout fees? Or others have financial ties to facilities or an academy. Btw, I am in or looking to be in the business.
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I think I would rather smash my head into the wall for 10 years before entertaining this as a business venture.
Profits vs headaches vs time vs returns in countless other fields... pass
I will say this nicely. If you aren't involved enough in this to know the answers to these questions, how will you get involved? I'm guessing almost every parent of a top level player knows where the money comes from and how it is generated. Every one that I know that owns a facility, top level program, and such has a strong tie to baseball by either playing at a high level or coaching at a high level. Very rarely does someone what to play for someone who is not at that level.
DC;
please make donation to this web site and then I can send you the formula for evaluation and investigation.
Bob
"Zip Code Games"
Typo. I am just a parent. Not at all in or want to running a team.
The money is in running the tournaments, i.e. PerfectGame, FiveTool, PBR. And in the hotels, airlines, rental cars.
No money in coaching or running travel teams.
I disagree with Speed Demon to some extent. It does not happen unless you own your own facilities and make your players pay you or others to get their training. You also have to have a lot of teams but I can guarantee you that any coach or travel organization that has 15 teams is making good money if they are doing it right. And any organization that has 15 teams also is running their own tournaments so you are charging players on your team to play in these tournaments that are not really costing your team any money. Plus you have a new uniform every spring, summer, and fall so that they have to buy all of their stuff from you and you do it cheap because you do it in bulk.
You will not find an organizational owner not driving a nice vehicle and staying in nice hotels and wearing nice clothes and all of it is paid for by the organization so it does not cost you out of pocket.
I know one who built a 3/2 very nice apartment on the backside of his complex so he doesn't pay for it either.
@PitchingFan is 100% correct. The big orgs make a lot of money for whoever owns the org. Just do the math.
@PitchingFan posted:I disagree with Speed Demon to some extent. It does not happen unless you own your own facilities and make your players pay you or others to get their training. You also have to have a lot of teams but I can guarantee you that any coach or travel organization that has 15 teams is making good money if they are doing it right. And any organization that has 15 teams also is running their own tournaments so you are charging players on your team to play in these tournaments that are not really costing your team any money. Plus you have a new uniform every spring, summer, and fall so that they have to buy all of their stuff from you and you do it cheap because you do it in bulk.
You will not find an organizational owner not driving a nice vehicle and staying in nice hotels and wearing nice clothes and all of it is paid for by the organization so it does not cost you out of pocket.
I know one who built a 3/2 very nice apartment on the backside of his complex so he doesn't pay for it either.
Agree!
If you can develop a Canes-type franchise, or own a gym next to a batting facility where you can charge players and the public for both, or if you run your own local tournaments, you have a chance to make a living.
To me, those seem like different businesses (franchisor, facility owner, tournament owner/director) than a TB org owner. Most 4-5 team orgs do not make much money.
I have a friend who has a franchise of a national team. Runs practices at the local city park for ages 8-18u. I think he clears around $25-30k 3 times a year (spring, summer, fall). It's not a lot, but not bad for a guy that just wants to coach baseball for a living and doesn't really have any other marketable skills.
DC;
you will need $5 million in liability insurance.
Bob
@PitchingFan posted:I disagree with Speed Demon to some extent. It does not happen unless you own your own facilities and make your players pay you or others to get their training. You also have to have a lot of teams but I can guarantee you that any coach or travel organization that has 15 teams is making good money if they are doing it right. And any organization that has 15 teams also is running their own tournaments so you are charging players on your team to play in these tournaments that are not really costing your team any money. Plus you have a new uniform every spring, summer, and fall so that they have to buy all of their stuff from you and you do it cheap because you do it in bulk.
You will not find an organizational owner not driving a nice vehicle and staying in nice hotels and wearing nice clothes and all of it is paid for by the organization so it does not cost you out of pocket.
I know one who built a 3/2 very nice apartment on the backside of his complex so he doesn't pay for it either.
If you have management skills to run 15 team organization you are still missing out on way way more profitable enterprises IMO
do the mat math is correct, you are essentially running 300 person organization
I'd bet many orgs make just as much money on lessons than they do from the teams. The org my sons are with has 7 cages plus a pitching area, and there's rarely more than 1 free cage during 4pm-10pm with all the private lessons going on. Most players from the org get lessons, plus tons from other teams. I imagine the org gets half & the instructor gets half.
There are a lot of non profit leaders who could make a lot more money doing something other than what they do.
But this is a for profit enterprise.
@adbono posted:@PitchingFan is 100% correct. The big orgs make a lot of money for whoever owns the org. Just do the math.
Sons college roommate was asked to start a travel team with the money from a wealthy attorney in our area in South Florida, giving sons friend a piece of the pie. The one team has grown to every grade level.
That was about 6,7 years ago. The organization is now huge, with a state of the art training center for baseball and now includes girls soccer. He assembled a great staff consisting of former pro guys. Their inaugural players are now entering college. I have seen the training center and it's impressive.
My point, sons friend does well but the guy making the money is the one who had the money to start the business!
If you want to be successful you need a successful business man or women behind you.
TerribleBPThrower can verify.
My point old_school is a lot of people are not looking to make the most money they can. Guys like me who have a masters degree that is equivalent to most doctorates could make a lot of money running a company but do what we love and are called to do. There are a lot of people in the world that are not chasing the money. The guys who run organizations like Canes and others do it because they love baseball and dealing with kids. They could make a lot more somewhere else but they are doing what they love. Every school teacher is doing it for the love not the money. Administrators may be a different situation but teachers could make a lot more other places including McDonalds and WalMart.
This podcast from the guy who wrote the How America Sold Out Little League article touches on economics. He worked for a regional travel program and talks about regional/local owners who can take $600k/year. That math makes sense to me. Like any business/industry, some owners will make a lot more than others. You have guys making very little, guys getting by, guys who have wired it up and made a real business. But the money is there. Not just for the national programs.
Edit: The guy who runs the TB program my son participated in was definitely in it for the love of developing players, and the game. He runs a small business with all of the risk, hassles, ups and downs that come with it. I hope he makes money and like any small business owner in America has the chance to create wealth if he's successful. I can do the math on that; it checks out for me financially and otherwise.
Well pitching fan I guess since the title of the thread was profits that would be relevant to the man’s question
It’s easy to become obsessive about sports and specifically youth sports if you’re a parent of a successful athlete, ergo this site…
My perspective is baseball and swimming, and swimming doesn’t grab hold of the athletes and parents anything like baseball. Maybe swimming is more definable, your times define your college options. Or maybe it’s because there’s no pro job possibility at the end of the amateur run. There’s always politics, but in swimming I never saw a group of dads standing away from the other parents critiquing the coach or lamenting why that kid is swimming that event (LOL). Swimming is also a long wait to watch your kid compete for a few minutes…
Whatever the reason, baseball is different; athletes, parents and coaches seem to get sucked into baseball vortex – heaven forbid you’re the former athlete, parent, and coach trifecta! Even former pro players are not vortex immune: In Tomball Texas you could go to Charlie Hayes’ Big-League Academy and watch Charlie, Jessie Barfield, and Mike Jackson work lessons in adjoining tunnels (better have thick skin, because they didn’t mince words). Something like 45+ years of MLB experience between them, pretty sure they’d be doing something else if it weren’t profitable. However, all three are members of the former athlete, parent, and coach trifecta, so maybe the pull to stay in the game is too strong… Whatever the case, Charlie’s son Ke’Bryan is with the Pirates and inked a $70M contract at 25 years old, so I’m sure there are no regrets.
Hayes’ facility aside, I know 4 dads, all former college players, of talented baseball players that put teams together for their sons (501c non-profits). All 4 morphed into organizations, with 2 still in existence 8 years after their sons finished HS (THZ (The Hitting Zone) and CSR (Cotton Sports Ranch). Are they profitable? No clue...
However, in Texas with the sheer number of organizations; Banditos, D-BAT, Stix, Mizuno, Hunter Pence, Rawlings, DeMarini, Kyle Chapman, Houston Heat are just a few I can remember, somebody must be turning a profit.
