Two strike pitches

It really is an art that can be practiced. My guy is regularly tossed pitches 6"+ off the plate and expected to hit them foul down the 1st baseline or behind him. It has been part of his overall training.

It is part of allowing the ball to get deep in the zone (even when off the plate)

I love this thread and the fact Florida that someone else actually works on spoiling pitches with two strikes. I thought maybe I was "out of touch" teaching my son to shorten up with two strikes make the pitcher work and just try to take the ball back up the middle. It is something that is rarely taught and even frowned upon by some hitting coaches who want 3 big swings every at bat.

What evidence is there that this "art" has diminished?

Anyone think that some hitters intentionally try to just foul off that outside fastball?

Actually yes.

Yes, hitters intentionally foul off borderline pitches that are not good to hit but are too close to take.

I guess that is why it is an "art". It's called battling at at the plate, waiting for a pitchers "mistake".

It is similar to being a lead-off hitter where the philosophy may be to make the pitcher show all his stuff.

neither of my sons two hitting instructors through this point in his baseball career taught fouling off a borderline pitch with two strikes even though their approach was totally different otherwise. They both wanted full cuts with two strikes.

that was wonderfully stated floridafan and it precisely states why my son takes the approach he does. I can recall when I was young hearing announcers talking about MLB players who struck out more than 100 times in a season needing to take another tour in the minors so they could cut down on their strikeouts. I think the term art is appropriate for exactly this reason.. there seems to be little difference these days in striking out and making an out on a ball put into play whereas in the old days not striking out was a badge of pride a lot of players had in the man to man contest that was pitcher vs. batter.

I teach my son to do it b/c it plays to one of his greatest strengths.. an outstanding batting eye.

In 2190 career abs Dustin Pedroia has struck out 184 times.

I've never met the guy but it doesnt look like he "shortens up his swing" to me.

I think the amount a player strikes out is slightly more complicated than a two strike approach.

Brian Giles went a season where he swung and missed 70 times. Only 70 times in an entire season.

Some of its physical, alot is mental, but the ablity to not swing and miss is God given in my opinion.

Now I did not indicate that my son has been taught to choke up and take a defensive approach to hitting when he has two strikes. He is on the offensive when he has a club in his hands, and he is always looking to drive the ball through or over the fence.

Intentionally fouling a ball off has no upside...even if you succeed, you don't gain anything...if you fail (swing and miss), you'll strike out. The objective is to get a hit, not not strikeout. Intentionally fouling off a ball does nothing to help you put the ball in play, let alone hard. It's a tie-lose proposition. Why put yourself in that position?

I don't believe that any hitters actually try to hit the ball foul, here's why:

I do not believe that a hitter can decrease his chances of swinging and missing by altering his swing to intentionally hit a ball foul instead of trying to put it in play with a routine swing. There is more room for error in a swing that would put the ball in play.

If a hitter puposefully hits a ball foul, it would mean that at some point he made up his mind to hit the ball foul. I don't believe that anyone decides before the pitch that they are going to hit this pitch foul, but that would mean that hitters make up their mind mid pitch to go from swinging to put it in play to swinging to hit it foul. Is that really what happens?

PS I agree with Walawala. A two strike approach may or may not help cutting down strikeouts, but in my opinion the number one factor in not striking out is not swinging at balls, both early and late in the count.

I hate any kind of "defensive" swinging in kids!!

S

The way strike zones vary and you cannot take lose pitches---fouling them off prevents bad calls and strikeouts and also build the pitch counmt for the opposing pitcher

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The way strike zones vary and you cannot take lose pitches---fouling them off prevents bad calls and strikeouts and also build the pitch counmt for the opposing pitcher

Yes,take the decision out of the umpires hand.

My son hit most his homeruns with 2 strikes this season,but those pitches were down the middle on full counts that the pitchers were just trying to get over the plate.He will slap a pitch on the edge of the plate to stay alive but put it down the middle and he uses his best swing.

IMO,this is what the better hitters will do.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The way strike zones vary and you cannot take lose pitches---fouling them off prevents bad calls and strikeouts and also build the pitch counmt for the opposing pitcher

Who amongst us doesn't believe that this is the "perfect approach" to two strike hitting? This line of logic suggests that the outcome will result in a the hitter getting a pitch he can handle which he will center and put it in play at some point in time.

Let me give you another perspective by some hitters:

Hitting a baseball is not done under controlled, lab like, conditions. Hitting is accomplished with round bats against moving round balls. That two strike defensive swing, on a "border line" pitch, just as often results in Strike Three, or a weakly struck ball that is fielded in fair or foul territory (weak pop-up) for an out!

Thus the Theory is this: "Why go after a pitch I can't do anything with when I know three things; it's likely a ball, I can not put it in play with authority?" AND, the fact is, that I have a 50/50 chance it will be called a ball if I take it!

I had a very good hitter, for both power and average, lay this on me after watching him take Strike three, with men on (and no doubt it was a BALL). This kid could differentiate balls from strikes BEFORE they where thrown I believe (his strike zone recognition was that good).

I said; "you know what you may be right." That's why you are going to College on a scholarship and I'm coaching youth baseball!

the end result of everything done in an at bat whether its a two strike approach or earlier in the at bat is to "get a good pitch to hit".

My view is that two strike situation involves understanding the hitter, where they are in the order, the situation and how they got to the 2 strike count. There is no one answer that is successful.
If the hitter got to 2 strikes by seeing everything the pitcher can throw, including his out or best pitch, then he can be much more aggressive.
If the hitter got to 0-2, without seeing the best pitch, I think he has to be less aggressive with his approach.
The higher the level of competition from HS to college to Milb, the smarter the hitter needs to be in this situation.
Just as the pitcher is attempting to set up the hitter, the hitter is looking to out think the pitcher, and get into a hitter's situation, especially seeing every pitch.
In my view, there are some extremely talented hitters in college and Milb who don't need to change the approach depending on the count, but they are the minority.
Most do need foul off pitches with 2 strikes, or have an approach to be able to handle good pitches in those situations. The question is whether they have the bat control, discipline and approach to do that.
Good hitters love 2 strike situations. They feel there is nothing more demoralizing to a pitcher than to give up a hit in those situations, especially against the pitcher's best.

If you're good enough to foul off a pitch, then, just hit it solid instead....

If you can do one, you can do the other....

Bluedog

You continue to amaze me----I am talking of pitches that are borderline stikes---not real good to hit but possbly can be called strikes---you must be one hell of a coach--are you saying you can hit every pitch solidly that you can foul off?

I think you better stay in your garage

Two strike routines are different from spoiling pitches, but neither work for most. They often end in double play balls. Why choke up when pitchers are aiming away. You would make the bat shorter. If you can't handle the bat, start with a shorter one. One major league hitting coach said, "if two strike routines work, use them all the time."

I dunno?
baseballpapa, are you saying every hitter needs to have the same approach, and every hitter needs to have the same approach in every situation and count?
Pitchers sure don't.
Why would hitters?