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For those of you who have a two-way HS player, what are your thoughts on pitch counts and then being moved to a defensive position in the field? I've seen some extremes so far this year. One coach will let a kid throw 80 pitches and then put him in the outfield and I've seen another coach that won't let a kid play a position after he pitches.

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Son pitched and played positions all four years.  He very rarely did both in the same day except for a few pitches because he always went the full amount he could on the mound every outing so there were very few pitches left because he typically made it a complete game or went into the seventh.  As a coach, if I had to pull a pitcher and put him at a position I always just asked him to limit his extra throws between innings.  If he had thrown a lot, a few throws from a position to finish a game should not hurt his arm.  If he had not thrown a lot, then it should not be a problem unless I pulled him because he was hurt and then I would obviously not let him go to a position.

All my son's HS pitchers also played MIF, in the same game.  There were only a few POs, and they did not play much.  Starters did not play SS after pitching; the SS who pitched were usually relievers.  Some starters did also play outfield when not pitching.

We had one catcher who sometimes closed.  My son's freshman year, there was no other catcher who could catch him (threw very hard!), so he mostly didn't pitch.  He pitched in college.

Not all 80 pitch games are the same.....Sometimes the kid needs a break, sometimes he doesn't. Baseball is very situational and good coaches understand this. Pitch counts alone do NOT take this into consideration.

Example:

4 innings 80 pitches - deep counts - lots of baserunners - lots of stress....Kid needs to sit/rest

7 innings 80 pitches - weak contact - 3up3down - cruising effortless...Kid can keep playing

Really depends on the coach.  Our hs coach would routinely throw guys 100 pitches.  My son isn't even a two way, but we put pitch limits on him from day one and the coach respected the limits.  I just saw last week he pitched a junior 104 pitches. In March.  If you trust the coach's judgment, you probably don't need to say anything, if you don't, speak up.  I would always error on the side that less is better.  

My son is outfielder and pitcher. With his showcase team, he routinely will start, go 80 pitches and then go play OF afterward. The other day he threw game one of the doubleheader for his high school. Went 74 pitches then to the OF afterward. Then started in the OF the next game.

I agree with Reluctant in that it can depend on what type of outing the pitcher had. If they cruised, no worries there. If they struggled and the high pitch count was only over a couple of innings, probably best to rest them.

The team we played on Saturday threw one of their big junior D1 recruits at us. He went about 105 pitches in 6.1 innings and then went and played RF afterward.

I do also like the rule of the pitcher can now become the DH when coming out of the game. That helps with this very situation. Coach doesn't have to find a spot for the pitcher in the field to keep him in the lineup. He just now becomes the DH once he is done on the mound.

Oldest son was the ace junior and senior hs years as RHP.  Coach needed his LH bat too as 3 or 4 hitter, so he would typically go to outfield or 1st base when done pitching.  80 pitches was typically the magic number where he'd get pulled for another pitcher.  Typically, he was very efficient with his pitches, so he'd be going deep in the game.

Middle son was 3rd baseman and spot relief pitcher junior year.   Senior year he was either starting in the field or starting  on the mound.   When done pitching he would come out of the field and sometimes stay in as a DH as he was left handed hitter.  It depended on the situation.

Youngest son was PO, so there were no issues there.

Last edited by fenwaysouth
@baseballhs posted:

Really depends on the coach.  Our hs coach would routinely throw guys 100 pitches.  My son isn't even a two way, but we put pitch limits on him from day one and the coach respected the limits.  I just saw last week he pitched a junior 104 pitches. In March.  If you trust the coach's judgment, you probably don't need to say anything, if you don't, speak up.  I would always error on the side that less is better.  

BHS, what limit did you ask for?  I'm thinking about asking our HC for the same consideration.

The bottom line for me is that I cannot trust any high school coach my son played/plays for.  They're not really coaches.  They're high school math teachers that enjoy the game and like to play chess every day with some one else's pieces (our kids).  I swear all baseball coaches at my son's high school have incentive bonuses for any time they can get a kid to throw a complete game and/or throw a kid way longer than is smart.  Too many supposed old school coaches that point to guys like Gibson and Ryan and are hell bent on living in the past.  Personally, I'd love to see old school long outings come back into style, but I'd also love to see TJ's reduce, but both are pipe dreams at present.

My son was usually the #1 P on his team (or in the discussion from age 7 through 14U ball).  Once he got to high school, he made a concerted effort to gravitate away from pitching to ensure he has an arm to play MIF/CF in college.  And thank God he did.  I love pitching and really miss watching my son compete on the mound, but how many pitcher's "careers" DON'T end due to injury?  2nd and 3rd Tommy John surgeries?  No, thanks.  Big arms/velo are all the rage and kids are standing in front of radar guns by age 8 these days.  Call me and my attitude a wuss on the topic.  I'll live.

If your son has no desire to play passed high school, do whatever makes your son happy.  From what little experience and knowledge I have, it seems most college "2-way" players end up being POs fairly quickly once they get there.  They're baited in under the guise that they have a legit shot at being a true 2-way, when we all know there is no such thing as too much pitching.  Not 100% the case everywhere for everyone, but the odds point to 2-way players never seeing the field as anything but a P.  My advice would be to protect your kid's arm the moment his coach shows he has any inclination that arm health isn't priority #1 in high school.  It will go over like a fart in church, but biting your lip and allowing a high school to shred your kid's arm won't help your kid playing at the next level.

My son was the closer on his high school team. I didn’t get it since the handful of times he started he went five innings mowing down hitters. By junior year he was cruising 87/88 and maxing 90.

Given he wanted to be a position player and the high school coach knew little about pitching (despite being a D2 AA position player) I didn’t mind. He left pitchers on the mound until they were smoldering cinders.

One time soph year on a thirty something windchill day the coach asked my son to come from short on eight warmup pitches. My son requested being pulled from the game for one hitter to quickly warmup and be returned to the game as the pitcher.

The coach got pissed at him and left a dying starter in to finish. After this incident my son always threw on the sideline between innings after asking the starter what he had left to know whether he would be needed in the 6th or 7th. By junior year if the starter wasn’t cruising my son started the sixth or seventh inning.

For those of you who have a two-way HS player, what are your thoughts on pitch counts and then being moved to a defensive position in the field? I've seen some extremes so far this year. One coach will let a kid throw 80 pitches and then put him in the outfield and I've seen another coach that won't let a kid play a position after he pitches.

TBP, you can search things like pitch limits for position players here and find volumes upon volumes of posts and lots of different opinions.  There is the "limit pitches and protect arms" camp, the "throwing more makes the arm stronger" camp and everywhere in between.  Generally, the consensus is that C, SS, and 3B are the worst positions you can move to after a long outing due to the typical length, effort and frequency of those throws.  Also, C has the added issue of a throwing mechanic that is quite different than traditional P mechanic teaches (very quick release vs length, smooth, rythm, etc.)

My experience in the area I coached definitely did not match what DanJ described.  Most coaches in the area were college level or above players.  Most would bring on an assistant with a decent P background if they didn't have that themselves.  Most were concerned about the health of their kids, certainly to include P arms.  That said, there are still many challenges.  Most HS's don't have a plethora of depth on their roster.  Strongest arms are generally needed at P, SS, C and 3B.  So, if a player has one of the 4-5 strongest arms on the team, guess where they typically play.  BTW, those 4 or 5 are also likely to be the better hitters on the team.  Guess what happens if you remove them from the lineup when they get pulled from the mound?  Weakens the lineup and gives the team a lesser chance to win.  Many coaches would have a plan to rotate a P to a safer position.  But guess what happens in crunch time in a big game... the coach feels pressure to put his best guy in to relieve and maybe move his starting P to the position he will most likely impact the defense (SS or C).  This is not an excuse.  This is just a glimpse of the reality coaches face when trying to balance the health of the players with the desire of the whole team, school, administration, parents and alumni to win.  Many stand firm with their guidelines.  Many have guidelines they generally follow but occasionally deviate.  Many fall somewhere else on the spectrum.

Here is another problem - even if the HC uses a "sensible" approach and puts a starter into what is considered a less dangerous position (say OF or 1B), it can still have very bad results.  I have seen more than once a starting P go deep and then move to another "safe" position, go easy with between-innings throws and then find himself in a competitive game moment where he suddenly must fire full effort and something gives.  To make the decision more difficult, those top competitive players usually have the mentality that they want to stay in the game and will beg and/or lie about how there arm feels in order to stay in.  "My arm is fine coach" is quite often all the open invite most coaches need.  One needs to be able to see past the words and read the body.

If you have done your research, have guidelines in mind for your player and have reason to believe the coach won't make decisions that meet or come close to those guidelines, you may have to speak up for your son and it should be well in advance if possible.

Last edited by cabbagedad

For those who have pitching limits on their kids, which is hard for me to comprehend having that conversation with a coach, what are you going to do when they reach college.  I would love to be a fly on the wall when a parent tells a college coach I don't want little Johnny to throw more than 60 pitches an outing and that can happen only on 5 days rest.  I understand the overuse of arms but I don't see it happening now that the pitch count rules are in place.  I don't see a kid throwing more than he should be able to throw in this new world order.  If a kid is doing what they are supposed to do and has thrown the rest of the year and done preseason preparation, they should be ready to throw when season starts.  My sons played three sports but threw in preparation for baseball every year and were ready to go day one of baseball games.  That does not guarantee you won't get hurt but it should prevent a lot of it.  For the parent that will want limits, they should also want their son to do his part and be ready before season starts.  This got me interested in looking at son's stats in HS.  He pitched 56, 56.1, 58, and 67.2 innings per season on varsity.  Plus pitched about 50 innings in the summer and played fall ball.  Never had arm problems and never missed a start.  Normally went the entire game or pretty close and played a fielding position when he was not pitching.

Last edited by PitchingFan

I re-watched a video the other night of my son pitching against Florida State, unfortunately the game ended up a loss for him and Mike Martin’s 1000 victory. I watched him come out again for his 4th inning..and thought, man...he’s been getting outs and giving the offense another inning to put up a run but Geesh, are they going to keep running him out there over and over?

I’m telling my son that story as we reminisced about that game and outing and I brought up the continued innings, saying “was coach just going to keep running you out there until your arm fell off?” To which he replied, “Dad, I kept telling coach I was fine and wanted to go back out there and get us to the bottom for a potential rally and walkoff win...”

He was over-thrown a few times in HS and in college but I can say that most of the times he wouldn’t have had it any other way.

Last edited by Shoveit4Ks
@PitchingFan posted:

For those who have pitching limits on their kids, which is hard for me to comprehend having that conversation with a coach, what are you going to do when they reach college.  I would love to be a fly on the wall when a parent tells a college coach I don't want little Johnny to throw more than 60 pitches an outing and that can happen only on 5 days rest.  I understand the overuse of arms but I don't see it happening now that the pitch count rules are in place.  I don't see a kid throwing more than he should be able to throw in this new world order.  If a kid is doing what they are supposed to do and has thrown the rest of the year and done preseason preparation, they should be ready to throw when season starts.  My sons played three sports but threw in preparation for baseball every year and were ready to go day one of baseball games.  That does not guarantee you won't get hurt but it should prevent a lot of it.  For the parent that will want limits, they should also want their son to do his part and be ready before season starts.  This got me interested in looking at son's stats in HS.  He pitched 56, 56.1, 58, and 67.2 innings per season on varsity.  Plus pitched about 50 innings in the summer and played fall ball.  Never had arm problems and never missed a start.  Normally went the entire game or pretty close and played a fielding position when he was not pitching.

A college coach threw a kid 120 pitches last weekend.  Everyone was making comments.  It's crap.  He is going to ruin a kid that might actually have a shot. Or at least put him out of commission for awhile.  Just because you kid was ok, he is lucky.  Of course we aren't talking to his college coach, but I wouldn't have him somewhere that had coaches making those kinds of decisions regularly.  My son is his own advocate at this point and hopefully isn't short sighted. We watched a kid at our hs throw 110 pitches multiple games starting in February and continuing to throw complete games all year.  By the end of the season, he was injured.  Missed the biggest playoff run we had ever made.  Still got drafted on day one, but lost about a million bucks.  The same coach threw a kid 104 pitches last weekend. All season scouts sat and made comments about how ridiculous it was that the coach would throw this kid so many pitches.  I'll reference our doctor...  He said every arm has a certain number of pitches in it....where do you want to throw them?

Last edited by baseballhs

There are always going to be some genetic freak exceptions. But I believe somewhere in the 90’s (different for each pitcher) is the breaking point for how much a pitching arm can handle. It’s why there are so many injuries and TJ surgeries mostly at the pro level now. I realize as time goes on and orthos become more skilled on TJ the surgery becomes easier. But I doubt there’s any pitcher out there who wants to sit out 12-18 months of minor league development or major league prime.

Last edited by RJM
@DanJ posted:

  They're high school math teachers that enjoy the game

At the Area Code tryouts the contact form asked for my son's travel coach's name and number.  He asked the scout behind the desk if he should add his HS coach's info.  The guy jokingly said "Why do I care what a History Teacher thinks about baseball".   My son was floored, as that year the HS coach actually was his history teacher.

After my son was offered by a JUCO via text after watching him play in a tourney, we were asked down for a visit and to get the specifics of the offer.   When we went down, I asked the coach point blank if he had spoken with my son's high school coach.  My son included his contact info in every email he sent the college coach, but guess what?  He never once reached out to his high school coach.  He said he rarely does because it's not worth his time.  My son was the first 2021 he had offered and it was legit money.  It seems unthinkable you wouldn't want to get one more perspective before offering real money, but I think it's happening very rarely.  I know there are a select few legit high school coaches out there in baseball hotbeds and they have really important working relationships with college coaches.  But I'd bet that most are just like my son's - high school teachers trying to stay young and trying to relive their glory years by MANAGING their high school baseball team.  They're not coaches; not instructors.  Most of our kids are coming up through little league with former pros and the like as coaches.  The instruction they received at age 8 ends up making whatever "instruction" their high school coaches are spewing out, the equivalent of "atta boy" and "rock n' fire, kid."  "Keep your back elbow up" and the like.  I applaud them for putting in a lot of hours for peanuts, but it waters down the term "coach" for those that actually do it.

I guess my son was lucky. His high school coach was a former D2 AA. He had been Director of Player Development for a national baseball organization. He was a rising star assistant coach for a perennial contender before taking the head coaching job at our high school. My daughter’s high school softball coach was a former Big 10 starter.

Before my daughter (oldest) arrived at high school most sports were league doormats. A new AD came in and decided “enough.” He hired all rising star assistants as head coaches.

Even the football team got to 7-4, 8-3 most seasons. As the coach once joked to me, “It’s tough recruiting off the mean streets of the (four in the district) country clubs.”

First, I need to mention that I coached in a special situation where our trainer was actually on staff as a member of our faculty.  We have a training room and our athletes funnel in there during their lunch/homeroom hour.  We have all of the latest technology our trainer needs. 

Our trainer was at all of our games at home.  He also made a few road games.  He has an assistant as well.  When my pitchers played another position, we had the same pitch count as everyone else.  100 pitches was the mark.  However, they knew that the next day, they would DH in the game and not play a position.  That rule was steadfast and there was not a chance I would let them play a position.  The trainer would have three sessions with this pitcher minimum before they took the field as a position player and the trainer had the ability to let me know that any given player needed additional time.  I guess I was fortunate to have the numbers and talent to be able to do this.  In all of that time, I only had one parent complain about this policy.  That parent eventually came to understand my madness and thanked me for it. 

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