UGA Followup

Thanks for posting that, like the other post said, this is not just UGA but several programs who do this, and if you know that going in then you should not be surprised if you are cut at some point or if your playing time is limited due to the fact that in any given year you have to compete with 47-50 players for a spot. I don't think this list includes drafted returnees.

HERE IS THE POST FROM GA SPORTS VENT
Saw many threads on this board about UGA and their over-recruiting, mostly complaints. Am going to post this list so all readers will see that if you go to schools like UGA, LSU, South Carolina and others you will have to compete for a roster spot every fall and you may not even make it to campus in August with your scholarship. Not judging either way, but all who want to play at UGA should know how it works. Not all big schools do this (Georgia Tech is an example of one who doesn't), but several do.

Fall 2008 Freshman Class or JC Recruits
1) Brennan May - Cut before fall, currently at Middle Georgia CC
2) Robby Hefflinger - Cut before fall, currently at Perimeter JC
3) Blaine Obrien - Cut before fall at Middle GA CC
4) Lance Martin - Walk on, cut after fall

5) Brett Devall - Drafted, signed MiLB
6) Zeke Spruill - Drafted, signed MiLB

7) Jeffrey Walters - Drafted, no sign, (JC transfer) on Spring Roster
8) Michael Pallazone - - Drafted, no sign, at UGA on Spring Roster
9) Cecil Tanner - Drafted, no sign, at UGA on Spring Roster
10) Chase Davidson - Drafted, no sign, at UGA on Spring Roster
11) Zach Cone - - Drafted, no sign, at UGA on Spring Roster

12) Colby May - on Spring Roster
13) Peter Verdin - on Spring Roster
14) Jonathon Taylor - on Spring Roster
15) Zach Laughlin - on Spring Roster
16) Tyler Maloof - on Spring Roster
17) Christian Glisson - on Spring Roster
18) Levi Hyams - on Spring Roster
19) Chase Hawkins - on Spring Roster
20) Kevin Ruiz - on Spring Roster
21) Earl Daniels - on Spring Roster

of this group of 21, 14 Freshman and one JC transfer are on the sping roster

Returning players from last year
22) John Herman - RSo - Cut
23) Jeff Bissell - So - Cut
24) Stephen Ochs Sr - Cut
25) Brent Hallman - Jr - Cut
26) Drew Haggard - RSo - Cut
27) Ryan Wooley - Jr - Cut before fall
28) Evan Tieles - So - Cut

Returning players on Spring Roster
29) Adam Fuller - Sr
30) David Thoms - Jr
31) Jason Leaver - Sr
32) Matt Cerione - Jr
33) Lyle Allen - So
34) Michael Demperio- Jr
35) Trevor Holder - Sr
36) Justin Earls - Jr
37) Robbie O'Bryan - Jr
38) Steve Esmonde - Jr
39) Dean Weaver - Jr
40) Joey Lewis - Jr
41) Carson Schilling - So
42) Miles Starr- Sr
43) Bryce Massanari - Sr
44) Alex McRee - Jr
45) Rich Poythress - Jr
46) Wil Harvil - Sr
47) Justin Grimm -So


So you can see, that while many schools only recruit to a 35 player limit (or a few over based on draft potential), UGA had 47 players to "choose" from which may be why they have been successful. As a recruit, as long as you know this going on there shouldn't be any whining. Playing time, the 25 man travel roster and not getting cut the next fall are other challenges.

There may be up to 28 returning players next year depending on which juniors are drafted, so the 16 or so signees for next year will have their work cutout for them. The other factor is only 27 can be on scholarship, so you know that many of the players listed for next year are in effect, "walking on" with no money, as is the case this year.

FWIW,
Many coaches want the NCAA to limit fall rosters. They feel that while the NCAA limited the roster to 35 to avoid over recruiting, they still have the opportunity to stack in the fall. There is no roster limit in the fall.
But some coaches argue that things happen, players become ineligible, others get hurt, some asked to leave for breaking team rules. The draft also interferes as no one knows who will get drafted until June.
I am thinking that this might be an issue revisited soon.

Fall 2008 Freshman Class or JC Recruits
1) Brennan May - Cut before fall, currently at Middle Georgia CC
Link to NLI Signing Announcement
Looking at this entry on the official UGa website, the player mentioned above (B. May) signed a NLI with UGa for Fall 2008. My understanding of the NLI is that means UGa is committed to pay him athletic money for 1 year. So how exactly does a "cut him before fall" work?

You can cut someone on scholarship, but you have to count that person as having used a roster slot if they continue to stay at the school on scholarship. If they leave school, then that roster slot and scholarship open up.

It's called running kids off. Over recruiting programs do it all the time. You make it so miserable for the kid he has no choice but to leave school. Part of the decision to leave is also with the kid. If he's cut early enough, he can enroll at another school right away and will still be eligible to play the following season as he will have a year in residence at the new school before the season starts.

According to posts here from last August, in the UGA case, the UGA coach asked the NLI player to voluntarily give up his NLI before enrolling. That frees up the money to give to an unexpectedly returning player who didn't sign professionally. The timing is important, because once the player enrolls, he is a counter for the rest of the term, even if he withdraws quickly, and so the money is not availble to anybody else.

If the player refuses to release UGA from the NLI (which is a contract), then he can expect to not play in the spring, and to have no money the next year, and to be cut the next year. Then he would have to transfer and (if he goes to a D1) sit out a year. In exchange, he gets his freshman year money.

Or he can release the school, find a new college or JC, and play the next 4 years without interruption. I think it is a really lousy behavior on the part of the school, but it is done.

So a player can be "run off" after he enrolls, or even before he enrolls!

How does cutting 7 returning players impact the APR?

quote:

Originally posted by Tantrough:
How does cutting 7 returning players impact the APR?

Good point, but were they all players who began their eligibility at the school? If not, it might not matter.
Also, were those players on track? If not, they would have hurt the APR.

3FG,
Is it true that a coach can balance his APR numbers? Say those that lose players to the draft don't cut many players, while those that don't lose to the draft cut players? Just wondering how it works.

The APR rules appear to be fairly detailed. I haven't found the actual rules, but the
APR Data Collection Guide has a lot of information.
Here's a brief and rough description works. As usual there are exceptions and special cases.

APR data is collected each semester. The first issue is which players are in the cohort, i.e., who will be included in the APR calculation. Only players who are counters, and who have been at the school for the first 5 weeks of the term are included. The results for a particular term aren't known until after the term is over. Players get 1 point for being academically eligible for the next term, and 1 point for retention, defined as still being enrolled after 5 weeks into the next term. For a few players, only one point is possible. As an example, a graduating player can get a point for academic eligibility, but retention isn't meaningful. Players can be described as scoring 0/2, 1/2, 2/2, 0/1, or 1/1. The APR is calculated as the total of the points of every player in the cohort, divided by the total points possible. That gives a number like 0.959, and that is mutiplied by 1000 to get 959 as the score.

Statisticians will appreciate that the NCAA has put a lot of work into finding a method to convert scores from quarter system schools to match semester system scores (the quarter system gives 1.5 times as many opportunities during a single year to get retention points), and to deal with the statistical validity of small squad sizes (one bad apple has a much bigger effect on the golf team than the football team).

Anyway, what is the effect of cutting players? Let's take the UGA case, where one player was cut (or left) before the fall 2008 term, and 6 other were evidently cut after fall 2008 practices. Any of those players who did not have athletic money (weren't counters) in spring 2008 weren't in the cohort, and have no effect on the APR. Those who had athletic money last spring but not durng fall 2008, and stayed at school (whether or not they were on the roster) through 5 weeks, have no effect. Any cut players that stay at UGA with good grades through 5 weeks into the spring 2009 term will score 2/2 for fall 2008, and won't be in the spring 2009 cohort.

In other words, players fitting the description above will either have no effect or a positive effect on the APR.

Players who had athletic money in spring 2008 and left school before 5 weeks of the fall will lose 1 point for retention. Similarly, players who had money during fall 2008, and who leave before 5 weeks into the spring 2009 term will loose a retention point. They would also lose an academic eligibility point if they didn't finish the fall 2008 term in good standing.

The considerations are the same for cut, drafted or withdrawn players. So if a team loses a lot of players to the draft, it probably can not afford to cut other players because they would be inclined to transfer.

If a team loses fewer players to the draft than expected, and those players are at risk academically, the value of players who are academically strong goes up. It might make sense to "un-invite" incoming freshmen, who haven't shown yet the ability to handle college classes, and keep the existing players. That may have been a consideration for UGA.

Coaches have to plan on players losing retention points through the draft, or by transferring. So coaches should be glad to find an incoming player who isn't at risk of losing eligibility points.