Umpires

bballdad1954

I'll play...

What I have observed from 6 years ago until now is the low strike has almost disappeared - at very least it is now very, very inconsistant. Yesterday comes to mind!

Where I have seen the worst calls recently is "on the bases." Some of these calls they make at first base are really unbelievably bad. I would agree too, it doesn't seem to favor one team or the other.

It may be a function of a shortage of people willing to ump...

Well, regardless of how good or how bad a call is, at least 50% of the crowd is going to disagree with a call and go away complaining about the ump!

I agree with bbdad1954. When we played NN, at NN, the ump was very inconsistent and had a "little league" strike zone. It's pretty bad when a player is called out because he took a pitch that is clearly off the plate. However when we played GBN last Tuesday a pro pitcher would have had trouble throwing a strike the umps zone was so tight. The home plate ump reversed two calls, one at second and one at first.
All we ask is consistency, particularly with the strike zone. What happened to the stike zone from the knees to the armpits?

Most of our games I've seen down here in the south, their off on the low strike. A good ROT is if the catcher has to take his mitt below his knees to receive a FB, its not a strike. I've seen to many called strikes in which the catcher is catching the ball right off the ground, to midway between the ground and his knees. The real strike zone is rather large. Its ridiculous that the pitchers aren't required to hit their spots in the SZ, and the hitters have to hit with big berthas.

Yesterday my son faced an excellent pitcher, Ron Muck from Maine South. In his second at bat the first two curve balls, one a strike the other a ball. Third pitch a fastball low that the catcher took off the dirt. Ump calls it a strike. Now it is 1-2 vs 2-1. Muck, who is smart, throws the next pitch in the same place. My son is forced to swing at a low pitch and grounds out. The ump took the bat out of his hands. Between innings our coach talks to the ump with my son there. He asks about the call. The ump starts to explain that the ball travels on a down angle so it doesn't matter that it is in the dirt when the catcher gets it. Just admit you missed the call. You can screw kids up if you screw up the zone like that and then defend it.

We will no longer allow this type of Muck raking to take place on this forum!!

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We faced Muck last year; the kid does not need help from the umps! He is good.
Not having been there and knowing how good Josh is it is a shame that happens. However, let's remember it is not where the ball finishes when the catcher gets it but rather where it is when it hits the front of the plate. For example if it was a downward breaking curve ball that was indeed at the knees when it hit the front area of the plate it is a strike, even if it hit the dirt at the back of the plate.

That is correct BBfan58, but this was a fastball and never was close to the knees. The ump should just say he missed it. Our coach talked to him and asked that he not try to justify the call because it would just make matters worse and confuse the player. Josh was called out on a bas pitch Thursday and the ump just said, "sorry, I missed that one". Josh just said OK. Nothing to do in that case but move forward. Josh just said, as long at it is the same for both teams it is fine with him.

Guys

Get over it

Its HS baseball.

Been through this and the umps do the best they can.

Put yourselves behind the plate and call balls and strikes it is tough.

Human error leads to correted mistakes

Have fun and enjoy that our guys are playing Baseball

I agree. They do the best they can. And like we always told our boys - you couldn't play the game without them, so quit complaining! Plus, the better you get as a player, the better the umping will get. The quality of the umping is usually about the level of the quality of the play.

Personally, I've never liked the umps who admit to making mistakes - to me that's just adding fuel to the fire. Just make the call as you see it and keep the game moving. You'll never call a perfect game - everybody recognizes that, and if they don't they should figure it out.

I've been to a number of neutral games (where I didn't care one way or the other who won) and it's amusing to hear from BOTH sides how one sided the umping is. Usually if it's bad, it's bad for both. But so what. It's also a really convenient excuse for losing or having a bad day at the plate or on the mound - second only to "did you see how crummy their field was? No wonder we couldn't make a clean play in the infield!"

Bad umping hurts the players because they don't know what to swing at and what not to. A bad strike zone, if consistent, is OK because the players at least have an idea of what to do.

My son had the longest home run in high school history Tuesday at Maine East. He hit it over the wall. The left fielder told the ump that he thought the ball went under the fence. The umps conferred and sent my son back to second for a ground rule double. Our coach went out and said they should find thhe ball. The umps went out to find the ball over the fence. It was obviously so far past the fence it couldn't have gone under. They conferred some more and called it a home run. It tokk almost 15 minutes for my son to round the bases. The longest home run ever. I said longest, not farthest.

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Yup, that's right papi! They're peaches... peaches and cream o' the crop!

quote:

Originally posted by mythreesons:
Personally, I've never liked the umps who admit to making mistakes - to me that's just adding fuel to the fire.

I may be in the minority here, but I've always admired umpires who are willing to admit that they may have missed a call...only reinforces the fact that they are just as human as the rest of the participants on the field. Hard to argue with a guy who is doing his best to make a proper call. All I've ever asked for in an umpire is the effort which seems to be lacking more times than not...regardless of what state you play in.

quote:

It may be a function of a shortage of people willing to ump...

This is true.....we face a dire shortage of qualifed umpires in just about every level of baseball...but HS baseball has its own issues....

In HS baseball, its often that you dont get the best umpire....but the most available umpire...with start times at 3:30 or 4:00 many good qualified umpires can not get out of work in time to do many of these games....leaving a large amount of games to be worked by retirees, and others...

Each year we lose umpires from the ranks.....many get tired of the hassle and whining from fans and parents dead set on finding a reason to blame losses and personal failures....

Many tire of the financial burden that is takes to umpire....Yes we get paid....but before the first pitch of the year.....I personally am at least $400 in the hole....multiple registrations, (NCAA/NFHS/PIAA/LEGION/PONY) 1 Million dollar liability insurance, clinics, gear and uniforms for each league.....

For the record this year I was scheduled 12 HS games....with rainouts I did 5....I am still in the hole at the end of the HS season...so its clear I dont do this for "the Money"....I could do better financially as a greeter at walmart.....

Many tire of the educational requirements,,,the minimum state meetings and clinics....

I owe the game my best efforts.....and over the years, I have moved up and away from the youth game....if I do the best job I can with my experince and skill level...and the player does the same...then we both can walk away from the game feeling we did our best.....

But what I can NOT abide is an Umpire and Players ( add in Parents) who cover up a poor performances by themselves claiming poor performance on the other side

Just my ..02 of course...

I beleive a large majority of umps do the best they can. I personally would never ump so I give them a lot of credit. We to went to Georgia for the WWBC last year at East Cobb (going agian) and I will say that all but one game we played had excellent umps (even when the calls didn't go are way). The strike zones were correct and uniform. That being said we have had some excellent umps here in Illinois also (Lamont that is for you).

Although it will never happen in HS Baseball, this is all evidence that we need an electronic strike zone.

Too often, the game depends upon what pitcher goes and with his style of pitching and how it matches up with an ump and "his" strike zone. A sinker ball pitcher or a pitcher with a curve that drops off the end of the table is in bad shape should he happen to pitch on a day where the ump doesn't call the low strike. Or it can be any number of ways that one pitcher gains an advantage over the other depending on the ump's strike zone.

Don't tell me that as long as he is consistent, it is fair. It (the ump's particular zone) not only gives one pitcher over another if their stuff matches up better with the ump, but it can help a team that can't hit stay in a game with a team that can. An ump can take the hitting out of the game by the strike zone he calls. Or vice-versa.

Hopefully that an ump is doing the best he can goes without saying, but I do fault the ump who tries to put "his stamp" on the game. Any ump that says anything about "his" strike zone is missing what the job is.

JMHO

quote:

Any ump that says anything about "his" strike zone is missing what the job is.
JMHO

I can go along with much of what you say, with the
possible exception of 2 items......the first is the ludicrous thought that HS should go to mechanical balls and strikes.....I umpire for schools that cant afford baseballs.....much less electronic measures for umpiring....

The second is the notion the an umpire who talks about "his zone" is missing what the job is.... and this is no knock on you....trust me....but its clear you have never attempted umpiring at a competitive level.....its one of the first things new umpires are astounded by....

Much of my answer here I have pulled from another thread called "borderline pitches" which evolved into much the same question/issue you are saying here.....

"why is it that umpires have "their" zone and not the rule book zone....."

My zone is just what happens when I am behind the plate attempting to judge a 3 dimensional strike zone that changes based on the batters height.

If you can imagine an invisible floating column, 17 and a half inches wide that extends from a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and at the lower level is the hollow beneath the knee cap. The zone is determined by from each batters stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball....the strike zone changes for a 5'6" batter to a 6' batter......

All of this adds to each umpire having their own zone....even as we all try to adhere to the rule book definition.

It is just the reality of doing the job. I am known as an inside and low ball umpire. I know this from video tape of my cage work at umpire clinics. I am more apt to call a ball a strike inside and low than I am at the outside and high side of the zone. Its just my reality...maybe its because I am short that I see that lower ball as a strike. Dont know, not sure what I can do as a human to improve on that.

I try and keep as consistent a zone as possible to avoid problems, but it is what it is.

Given that, in games with umpires of my experience, you will get different zones...much of it based on such things as the umpires height, his stance and the quality if the catchers.....I have seen recently injured umpires behind catchers of dubious quality jump around like cats on a hot tin roof.....not suprisingly the zone was jumping as well......

I believe that most trained umpires call the rule book zone to the best of their ability....

I believe that must of us SERIOUSLY DEDICATED umpires all try to call the strike zone as described in the rule book. Going back on my training, I can tell you based on video proof, that I call the borderline pitch inside and low a strike, but the outside and up pitch a ball.....now that is defining "my zone" over the strict rule book zone....

Its a condition of my height, my stance, my experience and probably a hundred other factors.......I keep working to refine my zone to fit into the rule book, but truth be told, I probably wont ever get it book rule perfect.....

I hesitate to offer this statement since usually this is the childs way out, but I will offer that it isnt as easy as it seems.....But I will guarantee you that I will keep trying to get better.......

Despite all our efforts, I feel there will always be some variance.......but I will try to get better......if at any time I feel I am doing "good enough" and fail to work on refining my game......I will call it a career.......

hope this helps understanding of my point of view....

piaa

Read my post...I said the electronic strike zone will never happen. So we don't disagree with that. my comment in that regard is more towards pro ball.

Secondly, I do understand that everyone sees the strike zone differently based upon many factors....size, postition depth perception and other factors. My beef is that I have run into umps have very directly stated things like "everyone knows I don't call the outside corner, or maybe "if I can't see the low pitch I call it a ball." I have definitely been told before a game by an ump that he calls a big zone so have your guys swinging.

Most umps?I don't know about that. Perhaps umps should be observed by camera and afterward (not in the game) be shown that perhaps he doesn't make the right calls on for instance high and low pitches which are very easy to see from the side. I think most umps are defensive about things like that when they shouldn't be. Don't they want to call the zone as correctly as possible?

Umps at the Major League level are notorious for having personal strike zones, although they are getting better there.

This may sound like asking for punishment, but I can't wait until I get patched. And that will happen the day after Junior hangs up his spikes.

My coaching days are done. My up close spectating days too in the next, hopefully, five years.

Missed the game too much during the time between high school and the day Junior was signed up for T-Ball.

Love the game too much to just let it pass me by. I have dabbled in the art of umping. It's work, but certainly not a job. A labor of love, perhaps.

Atta boy .300. Get you some.

I hope you bring the level up.

I agree that it is silly to generalize about a state. I just didn't know how else to express it. It isn't just the umps in the CSL. This week twice they couldn't make a home run call without running to and beyond fences to see where the ball landed. The strike zone yesterday had both coaches upset.
Why? Because clear balls were being called strikes. It hurts teh game and the players. This guy called low outside pitches strikes. He did it for called third strikes in key situations with good hitters up. It affects the game.

I have a friend that always says, players win games, coaches lose games, refs ruin games.

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad1954:
I hope you bring the level up.

I agree that it is silly to generalize about a state. I just didn't know how else to express it. It isn't just the umps in the CSL. This week twice they couldn't make a home run call without running to and beyond fences to see where the ball landed. The strike zone yesterday had both coaches upset.
Why? Because clear balls were being called strikes. It hurts teh game and the players. This guy called low outside pitches strikes. He did it for called third strikes in key situations with good hitters up. It affects the game.

I have a friend that always says, players win games, coaches lose games, refs ruin games.

refs ruin games.....you need a better/smarter friend....and you have to know this is coming...we have lots of umpires who got into it, because they feel they can do a better job than what they have seen....

why not give it a try?.....I'll send you a shirt and reference material and provide you access to the process to get NFHS certified...

I don't blame you for trying to defend your fellow officials. I just think the levelis low. Many others agree.

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad1954:
My son had the longest home run in high school history Tuesday at Maine East. He hit it over the wall. The left fielder told the ump that he thought the ball went under the fence. The umps conferred and sent my son back to second for a ground rule double. Our coach went out and said they should find thhe ball. The umps went out to find the ball over the fence. It was obviously so far past the fence it couldn't have gone under. They conferred some more and called it a home run. It tokk almost 15 minutes for my son to round the bases. The longest home run ever. I said longest, not farthest.

Regardless of the time it took, the bottom line is they got the call right. Isn't that what matters most?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bballdad1954:
Yesterday my son faced an excellent pitcher, Ron Muck from Maine South. In his second at bat the first two curve balls, one a strike the other a ball. Third pitch a fastball low that the catcher took off the dirt. Ump calls it a strike. Now it is 1-2 vs 2-1. Muck, who is smart, throws the next pitch in the same place. My son is forced to swing at a low pitch and grounds out. The ump took the bat out of his hands. [QUOTE]
I would say that your conclusion is more speculation than certainty unless you know for sure he would have called that last pitch a strike had your son not offered at it. While calling balls and strikes is certainly not an exact science (allowing for human error), to claim that an ump can take the bat out of a hitter's hands is a bit of a reach. In over 88 ABs, my son has 16 walks and has struck out once (swinging...good pitch, good swing) with an OBA near .600. I only offer this to suggest that either my son has an exceptional eye, or the umpiring isn't quite as bad as some might think.

My son has 28 walks and 6 strike outs, 4 of them called. He has only swung and missed 10 pitches all year. He has been a 3 hitter, well known by the opposition and has not gotten a lot to hit. Not much protection in the line up. He got moved up to leadoff Tuesday and has been on 7 of 10 at bats including a homer and triple 3 walks and a hit by pitch and hit.

If a umpire calls a low strike for strike two, and the pitcher comes back with the same pitch, you better be swinging to protet yourself or you will be called out. Is the ump going to call a ball on a pitch he called a strike on pitch late? Should you take that chance, or protect? You are a good coach. What do you say?
My son plays with one of your old players Tim R.
Ask his father Rick if I am on the level. Rick saw the same thing I did.

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad1954:
My son has 28 walks and 6 strike outs, 4 of them called. He has only swung and missed 10 pitches all year. He has been a 3 hitter, well known by the opposition and has not gotten a lot to hit. Not much protection in the line up. He got moved up to leadoff Tuesday and has been on 7 of 10 at bats including a homer and triple 3 walks and a hit by pitch and hit.

If a umpire calls a low strike for strike two, and the pitcher comes back with the same pitch, you better be swinging to protet yourself or you will be called out. Is the ump going to call a ball on a pitch he called a strike on pitch late? Should you take that chance, or protect? You are a good coach. What do you say?
My son plays with one of your old players Tim R.
Ask his father Rick if I am on the level. Rick saw the same thing I did.

By no means was I questioning your observation nor demeaning your son. He is obviously a very accomplished hitter who was put in a difficult position...a position that hitters frequently find themselves in. With that said, the answer to your question is a difficult one. On the one hand, I've always instructed my hitters to never allow an umpire to change your mental approach at the plate. On the other hand, nobody enjoys getting rung-up on a pitch outside the zone. Thus, there's a fine line between protecting the plate and going to extremes whereby mechanics begin to break down. In short, I would much prefer a hitter take a lousy called-third than to flail away at pitches he should not be swinging at...nomatter the count. More times than not, he'll get himself out anyway.
Having said that, hitters must make adjustments according to what strike zone an individual umpire is calling. Assuming it's consistent, a typical batter's box allows for 24 square feet of room that may be used to accomodate for the pitches being called strikes. In your son's case, I would have advised him to move up in the box (adjust the depth) to take away the unusually low strike being called. The opposite would apply for the high strike. For in or out strikes being called, hitters should adjust their distance from the plate. Of course, all of this is premised upon a consistent strike zone.
Other than that, faced with a questionable zone, I would encourage my hitters to drill the first good pitch they see so as to not place their fate in the hands of that game's umpire. And, by no means should a hitter (nor parent) ever challenge a call...that's what coaches are for. Hope that helps...say hi to Rick for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Bravescoach:
And, by no means should a hitter (nor parent) ever challenge a call...

Sometimes, seeing a parent get tossed is the best part of the game. Probably embarrassing to the kid, but if the parent is getting tossed at a HS game, the kid has probably seen it before. And it certainly should be taken as a lesson, one way or another, to everybody else.

oving up in the box is a great thought. No wonder you are so well thought of. I will tell Rick you said hi. Tim had a great day today.

This is my first time in to the new and improved site. Don't know if the old gang - CPLZ, bballd1954, Bravescoach - get back in too often. And if weren't for the guy selling socks, I would have missed this old thread.

 

I am gettin' me some...patched and I'm going into year three. HS weekend DH's only, though I did take off for spring break to work DH's that week. I have graduated to a sophomore schedule. And of course a summer full of Daddy, I mean, travel ball.

 

It's a totally different perspective from behind the dish. Maybe I've been lucky so far, but with almost 200 games called, I can count on two hands the number of catcalls related to my strike zone. Most of those catcalls were correct, I learned and I adjusted.

 

There is no doubt, the umps in my association work hard at their craft and feature a number of guys who repeatedly are asked to work regionals, sectionals and state. The only way they get to do those games is because they are highly rated by the varsity coaches. Those quality umps, in turn, pass along their knowledge and experience to old rookies like me.

 

Face it, there are bad players, bad coaches and yes, bad umpires. And most of those guys are only umpiring to get away from their bad wives....