Updating the Windup vs. Stretch debate

Steve A., I respect that you said you’re done, but let me throw this out there:  I don’t think this is an issue of PCs “commanding” pitchers to change their deliveries.  Just looking at MLB relievers, it is clear that most do not use a windup, even with bases empty.  There is also no trend I can identify of relievers who are aging and losing velo switching to a windup to gain speed. Maybe Mariano Rivera never needed the extra mph from a wind; but what about all the marginal guys? To agree with you, don’t I have to conclude that the guys who are the best in the world at what they do, and who have access to the best coaches, don’t act on what seems obvious to you? No disrespect intended (and I am no pitching expert), but I can’t reconcile what I see in real life with your explanation.

 Nolan Ryan might be one of the best examples that what works for some won’t necessarily work for all.  The guy’s skill and longevity were incredible.  But even a really gifted P who copies Ryan’s delivery may not throw as hard as that P could using a different motion, and may end up injured. The more I read and study, the more mysterious pitching gets.  I’m reaching a point where I’m afraid to teach pitching to the 9-year-olds I coach, because I’m convinced I don’t know anything. 

Chico Escuela posted:

Steve A., I respect that you said you’re done, but let me throw this out there:  I don’t think this is an issue of PCs “commanding” pitchers to change their deliveries.  Just looking at MLB relievers, it is clear that most do not use a windup, even with bases empty.  There is also no trend I can identify of relievers who are aging and losing velo switching to a windup to gain speed. Maybe Mariano Rivera never needed the extra mph from a wind; but what about all the marginal guys? To agree with you, don’t I have to conclude that the guys who are the best in the world at what they do, and who have access to the best coaches, don’t act on what seems obvious to you? No disrespect intended (and I am no pitching expert), but I can’t reconcile what I see in real life with your explanation.

 Nolan Ryan might be one of the best examples that what works for some won’t necessarily work for all.  The guy’s skill and longevity were incredible.  But even a really gifted P who copies Ryan’s delivery may not throw as hard as that P could using a different motion, and may end up injured. The more I read and study, the more mysterious pitching gets.  I’m reaching a point where I’m afraid to teach pitching to the 9-year-olds I coach, because I’m convinced I don’t know anything. 

Ha! Too funny. Hey, you know more than you think & these kids should be grateful to have your help.

I actually think we agree. For me, as I stated the choice was stretch only as a reliever. Over 50% of the time you are coming in with guys on base so just simplify your life, learn one delivery & go with it. I thought Stephen Strausburg had a good full delivery but he canned it & went 100% stretch last year & was lights out.

My main point is that if I were teaching a youth pitcher, which I have many, I would get him 100% straight from the stretch before I even contemplated the full. Some kids & even Pro pitchers simply can never add anything by going full so why complicate things? Totally agree. But for those few who can pull it off, or learn it the right way at a young age, it is a benefit in rhythm & added velo if you have a full, dynamic, fluid, directional windup.

Again, this is just my 2c. Hell, who would have thought 10 years ago that we would be talking about Launch Angles & Second Basemen swinging like ferris wheels trying to hit 40 bombs a year with an entirely new hitting philosophy.

Steve A. posted:

I will give it one more shot & then let it go. The answer as to why MLB does what it does with their pitchers is that when you get to MLB they are not going to "command" you to alter your routine. If you decide, as I did as a reliever, that the simplest thing to do was go 100% stretch, then you are not going to get much pushback, if any. It's about results. If the stretch simplifies mechanics & helps a guy get people out without a loss in velocity (largely because everyone has a horses*#t full windup), then 100% that will be the trend.

One last example to illustrate why " nothing matters before the leg lift" is incorrect. If I was pi##ed off & was going to slam a door, how would I do it most effectively? Would I pull it back, stop (arrest all forward momentum & elastic energy at top of leg lift) & then crank it shut? Or would this instead be one fluid motion of cranking that door back, stretching the core, arm, leg & back muscles, creating energy & slamming the door in one dynamic, fluid motion? Yes, this would shatter the hinges.

Just PLEASE go pull a Nolan video from the full windup & come back & tell me there is no energy generated, that translates to the delivery, before leg lift. This is all I ask & I am done.

Thanks  

Okay,

You would pull the door back. That's loading the hips by lifting the leg. Does it matter if you do anything before pulling that door back? Take a step one way or the other, dance a Jig - it wouldn't matter.

I already posted video showing this exact point. You can't tell once the leg is lifted fully how it got there, and as far as the physics go - it doesn't matter. 

If a pitcher "needs" a full windup to get to a proper hip load - that's a matter of him needing to learn how to pitch properly from the stretch. You can do it either way - even Ryan did. Look at video of him in the stretch. Same big leg lift. Same engagement of the hips. Same torso separation.

Rob T posted:

Steve A. posted:

I will give it one more shot & then let it go. The answer as to why MLB does what it does with their pitchers is that when you get to MLB they are not going to "command" you to alter your routine. If you decide, as I did as a reliever, that the simplest thing to do was go 100% stretch, then you are not going to get much pushback, if any. It's about results. If the stretch simplifies mechanics & helps a guy get people out without a loss in velocity (largely because everyone has a horses*#t full windup), then 100% that will be the trend.

One last example to illustrate why " nothing matters before the leg lift" is incorrect. If I was pi##ed off & was going to slam a door, how would I do it most effectively? Would I pull it back, stop (arrest all forward momentum & elastic energy at top of leg lift) & then crank it shut? Or would this instead be one fluid motion of cranking that door back, stretching the core, arm, leg & back muscles, creating energy & slamming the door in one dynamic, fluid motion? Yes, this would shatter the hinges.

Just PLEASE go pull a Nolan video from the full windup & come back & tell me there is no energy generated, that translates to the delivery, before leg lift. This is all I ask & I am done.

Thanks  

Okay,

You would pull the door back. That's loading the hips by lifting the leg. Does it matter if you do anything before pulling that door back? Take a step one way or the other, dance a Jig - it wouldn't matter.

I already posted video showing this exact point. You can't tell once the leg is lifted fully how it got there, and as far as the physics go - it doesn't matter. 

If a pitcher "needs" a full windup to get to a proper hip load - that's a matter of him needing to learn how to pitch properly from the stretch. You can do it either way - even Ryan did. Look at video of him in the stretch. Same big leg lift. Same engagement of the hips. Same torso separation.

Ok, you win. I quit. Everyone did it wrong for the first 150 years. Ryan wasted his time in the full. Gibson, Koufax, Feller, Palmer, Seaver, Carlton, Clemens, all should have just gone from the stretch & let it fly. Except that they did not & ended up being among the greatest power pitchers of all time.

Steve A. posted:

Ok, you win. I quit. Everyone did it wrong for the first 150 years. Ryan wasted his time in the full. Gibson, Koufax, Feller, Palmer, Seaver, Carlton, Clemens, all should have just gone from the stretch & let it fly. Except that they did not & ended up being among the greatest power pitchers of all time.

Steve, this is exactly what has been wrong with the MLB... things were/are being done   just because "that's how we have always done it". This is dramatically changing now with smart analytical general managers now running teams, and people like Kyle Boddy up at Driveline, Alan Jaerger, and others questioning and asking "why" and looking for the "right" answer, not just what was done in the past.  All of those players were great in their time but can you imagine how good they would be if they had access to the data and high speed camera's and biotechnology available today. 

Here is just one small example:

 https://www.letsgotribe.com/20...be-changing-baseball

BOF posted: Steve, this is exactly what has been wrong with the MLB... things were/are being done   just because "that's how we have always done it". This is dramatically changing now with smart analytical general managers now running teams, and people like Kyle Boddy up at Driveline, Alan Jaerger, and others questioning and asking "why" and looking for the "right" answer, not just what was done in the past.  All of those players were great in their time but can you imagine how good they would be if they had access to the data and high speed camera's and biotechnology available today. 

Here is just one small example:

 https://www.letsgotribe.com/20...be-changing-baseball

There’s no doubt that there are a lot of things in baseball that could change for the better, but that doesn’t mean everything done in the past can be done better.

Your example is scary to a lot of us Tribe fans who watch Bauer and often scratch our heads wondering WTF he’s doing. Personally, I’d rather see Bauer perfect Trevor Bauer’s pitches than try to throw clones of Cory Kluber’s!

I used to love pitching from the full, but never felt I could throw faster, that way. I did feel I could come over the top on my curve better than when i pitched from the stretch. My first son pitched both ways. Son #2 likes to go from the stretch only. I've encouraged him to try the full during the off season, but he gets stubborn and refuses. The things he gets from his mother!