A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
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We carried 24 last year. Though in our area Varsity and JV are one team. If you don't get significant playing time during the week and during the first Saturday game, you play in the JV game on Saturday. Wasn't as much complaining as I expected, though its generally accepted that Sr's play over Jr's on our team. There are a few exceptions but its usually only 1 or 2 Jr's getting significant V playing time. If you figure 1/2 the team is Sr's, factor in pitchers, there really are not many Sr's not playing. That probably leads to pacifying the parents,
We had 29 last year, and have 25 this year. Strong but not overwhelming team, with 9 sophs who are all potential starters. Once on Varsity, no JV option, but hope springs eternal, as someone once said. Everyone's excited now (first pre season tournament game is today) but in a few weeks who knows.
I think rosters should be smaller but in this situation I'm just a hopeful dad.
Over the last 14 seasons, I’ve seen as many as 26 and at least 5 other times more than 20 were carried. But there are a lot of reasons for carrying that many players, and every season we play at least a few teams suiting up more than 20 players.
Why do you think parents will be angry?
We have 24 on Varsity. We had 22 on our freshman team last year and I think the same this year. We also have a separate JV team. We have the unwritten rule (maybe all schools have it) that seniors can't be cut if they were on the team junior year. It makes for a large varsity team.
Stats4Gnats posted:Over the last 14 seasons, I’ve seen as many as 26 and at least 5 other times more than 20 were carried. But there are a lot of reasons for carrying that many players, and every season we play at least a few teams suiting up more than 20 players.
Why do you think parents will be angry?
I forgot to note, no seniors at this school yet. Juniors are as high as they go. Last year the team had 17 and there was not a lot of playing time I heard. I can’t imagine 22 now. My sons team has 17 and my older son never played on a varsity team with more than 18
Our High school had 22 as well. Help your son to become good enough to be an every day player they can count on so 22 or 2200 won't matter to him.
"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles. Policy of not cutting seniors just because they were in the program as juniors is about as stupid as the rule about having to swing a 32" bat no matter how big you are (mentioned in another thread). Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team. My opinion is that no player should be entitled to be on any roster in any sport if they aren't good enough to contribute to the team. You can trace all of this back to the culture of this generation of kids (which was created by a bunch of misguided parents) that everyone is a winner & we don't keep score & we all get a juice box and a participation trophy. That's how these kids were introduced to sports when they were 6 years old and that's how they think when they are 17. It is a rude awakening for all of them when they eventually find out that the world doesn't work that way.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Ah yes, the give them all trophies group. I guess I do it a little different. If you are one of the best players you make the team. If not, you get cut or sent to JV and use it to work harder.
If I coached a HSV team with 22 players, I would publicly harden my heart and do what was necessary, but privately I would be sick at heart about the number of fine young men on the bench.
adbono posted:Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles. Policy of not cutting seniors just because they were in the program as juniors is about as stupid as the rule about having to swing a 32" bat no matter how big you are (mentioned in another thread). Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team. My opinion is that no player should be entitled to be on any roster in any sport if they aren't good enough to contribute to the team. You can trace all of this back to the culture of this generation of kids (which was created by a bunch of misguided parents) that everyone is a winner & we don't keep score & we all get a juice box and a participation trophy. That's how these kids were introduced to sports when they were 6 years old and that's how they think when they are 17. It is a rude awakening for all of them when they eventually find out that the world doesn't work that way.
Seniors at son's school are not usually cut, unless coach sees that they will be malcontent. One senior got booted this year, apparently for that reason. Don't know the full story, neither does anyone else except the coach and the kid. He had a good chance at a starting spot. Seniors that are kept on the team are told their chances of playing. Or that they won't. Some stay, some move on. This guy has been a varsity coach for 32 years. Friendly guy, but he will never talk about a player/team/strategy to any parents. The lines are very clear. Kids are told they will be held accountable for their parents actions if it is detrimental to the team. And angry parents are detrimental to the team. Best be angry on the inside if it's your nature to be angry about youth sports.
Kinda like some silly western movie I saw as a kid. New town, new sheriff in town run amuck. Jail not completed yet, it has no bars. New sheriff draws lines where the jail cell is. Pours red paint that looks like blood on the floor just outside the lines. Bad guy stays in the area marked for the jail cell. Most parents stay in the cell in this program.
In the fall "Baseball class", each kid is given a piece of paper. It says "Varsity", "JV/Sophomore", "Varsity/Cut", or "Cut", etc. He then will put a few notes "Compete for innings on mound, develop bat" or the like. Then he meets with each kid individually and explains it to them.
At signing day last year, there was a catcher that signed with a pretty good JUCO. In four years he never made the team. Pretty sure that story is some of the blood just outside the jail cell.
He may be my favorite coach of all time.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
The players I have seen in this situation were neither "committed to the team" or "committed to the game". They thought they were entitled to something. Therein lies the problem.
There are currently 20 players on our HS varsity roster. 12 of them are seniors. Only 4 of the 12 seniors are good players and 3 will advance to play in college. Only 6 are good enough to be on a varsity roster. The other 6 that aren't good enough to be there don't even play travel ball in the summer. We have a number of young underclassmen that show a lot of promise. If I were coaching our HS team I would cut all 6 of the seniors who have proven they cant play on Monday - and I would be fired on Tuesday. That's the climate we live in.
Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
ADBONO wrote:
“Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team.”
Our high school head coach said this^ very thing happened two years ago and he vowed to never do it again. So, last year he had eight seniors out of the 18 varsity players.
As in the case with GO44’s son coach, he explains what every player’s role is and they have to decide if they are good with it.
This year we have 18 total and eight seniors again. Only the number #1 and #2 pitchers, one of the two catchers and our CF will be starters. So, four seniors won’t play a lot but again, their roles were clearly explained.
A few days after the teams (V, JV & freshmen) were chosen this year, he sent a note to parents saying that players could still be cut. “Word on the street” was that some seniors were not being leaders and they would be cut if they continued their current behavior.
Last year, the team made a deep run into the playoffs and we had a great group of players and parent which meant zero issues. This year, it remains to be seen but I think the message was received.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
I’m going to address keeping seniors who don’t play that increase roster size. My son’s high school coach would allow seniors to dress for varsity senior year if they hung in there for four years. The writing (varsity playing time) was on the wall for these players junior year as part time JV players.
The coach told them they were invited to be varsity players senior year as long as they didn't gripe, their parents didn’t gripe, they cheered and chased foul balls.
A couple of kids didn’t take the uniform over chasing foul balls. One of the seniors was such a good kid he had the ability to be a team leader from the bench. The team went nuts when the kid finally got an at bat. He drove a triple off the fence a foot from being a homer.
RJM posted:I’m going to address keeping seniors who don’t play that increase roster size. My son’s high school coach would allow seniors to dress for varsity senior year if they hung in there for four years. The writing (varsity playing time) was on the wall for these players junior year as part time JV players.
The coach told them they were invited to be varsity players senior year as long as they didn't gripe, their parents didn’t gripe, they cheered and chased foul balls.
A couple of kids didn’t take the uniform over chasing foul balls. One of the seniors was such a good kid he had the ability to be a team leader from the bench. The team went nuts when the kid finally got an at bat. He drove a triple off the fence a foot from being a homer.
There is always a place for a kid like that. But IMO a kid that embraces his role on the bench (as a senior) is the exception and not the rule.
Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Midwest Mom posted:Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Agreed. I checked our's and it has been between 22 and 28 for the last five years. That's pretty normal around here.
Our program has 25 players across V and JV. There is no freshman team. 4 seniors, 7 juniors, 7 sophomores, 7 freshman. I know 3 of the 4 seniors will play key roles and the fourth may too? I’ll find out as the season plays out.
My son is one of the freshman so I don’t know the makeup and roles of all the upper classmen yet.
So, I don’t think this will be much of an issue this year. I did hear that a sophomore recently decided to quit but I don’t know the reasons why.
2019Dad posted:Midwest Mom posted:Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Agreed. I checked our's and it has been between 22 and 28 for the last five years. That's pretty normal around here.
in order for that to work you need very defined roles. As in 2 deep at every position and 10 POs. Otherwise its a cluster****. Good programs seem to be able to implement that kind of structure. Others don't. There are way more others than good.
adbono posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
We had a few seniors that didn't play much (but they all played at least a few games), but they wanted to be a part of the the team, they actually helped the younger kids and cheered them on and had a great time. It's all about perspective and how the coach handles it. Not all of these boys want to play at the next level. Some of them just enjoy working out and being part of a team at the end of their HS career when they've been playing since they were young.
Maybe this place is strange or the HCs I’ve scored for were just weird. Every time there’s been really large rosters, the HC has given marginal players the choice of being on the team and being allowed to practice with the team and be “covered” by the school insurance, or being on their own. Being on your own around here means little or no organized ball from Feb thru June because there aren’t many players.
Players almost always choose to be part of the team, even knowing they’ll get little or no field time. I can’t say how “all” parents feel, but the ones I’ve talked with about it are great with it because the alternative isn’t a good one.
Like all things, every situation is different so blanket statements just don’t cover everything.
adbono posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
It is the player's choice as long as the coach makes it know that that's the case. As others have said, a lot of it depends on the school. My son's school doesn't normally have more than 30 kids total...unless we get a big freshman class like they had last year. If a kid has stuck around thru his junior year because of low numbers, I don't see many coaches booting them as seniors because they happened to get a big freshman class and bring the numbers up. At a school our size....a kid going into his senior year knows exactly where he fits in the program. If the coach says "you can have a uniform"...that's all it means. The kids know that any PT will only be in mop up situations
Stats4Gnats posted:Maybe this place is strange or the HCs I’ve scored for were just weird. Every time there’s been really large rosters, the HC has given marginal players the choice of being on the team and being allowed to practice with the team and be “covered” by the school insurance, or being on their own. Being on your own around here means little or no organized ball from Feb thru June because there aren’t many players.
Players almost always choose to be part of the team, even knowing they’ll get little or no field time. I can’t say how “all” parents feel, but the ones I’ve talked with about it are great with it because the alternative isn’t a good one.
Like all things, every situation is different so blanket statements just don’t cover everything.
I think there are a lot of regional differences on this subject - and many others too.
For those who feel like "seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play" need to think about what is the point of high school athletics? People get upset about a perceived lack of loyalty in this world, but here it's almost being promoted.
Bulldog 19 posted:For those who feel like "seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play" need to think about what is the point of high school athletics? People get upset about a perceived lack of loyalty in this world, but here it's almost being promoted.
My opinion is that seniors should be cut if they aren't capable of making a contribution to the team. There are ways to contribute other than playing - and I'm fine with all of those. I have just seen too many seniors that go south. Neither I or anyone else in this thread has said that seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play. And loyalty has nothing to do with it.
In the 4-years my kid was on our 9A (Highest classification FHSAA - 2,774 TOTAL ENROLLMENT) Varsity squad, we had: 18, 20, 21 and 18 players...
So, yes...
Carried 27 my senior year. Went 5 rounds deep in playoffs and played over 40 games. We had a deep roster when it came to pitchers. No one complained when we were winning. Everyone knew their role and accepted it. There were maybe 2 or 3 seniors that didn’t play much, if ever, but they still talk about that team and the memories to this day.
We'll probably have 20 or more on our roster this year, both varsity and JV, and no POs. Our problem is our juniors, who are quitting because our starting line up is almost all seniors, with maybe two starting positions up for grabs. Went to the doctor the other day — 10 minutes to get medication for a sinus infection, 45 minutes explaining to the PA who saw me what positions her son should work on if he wants to make varsity this year.
23 on our Varsity, 15 seniors and 8 Juniors. Very competitive HS baseball team. Mine has an MRI in next two weeks on pitching arm and is shut down right now. Only a Junior, but a very important year for recruiting. I'm just happy the coach is letting him stick around until we find out the results of the MRI. Praying it's nothing major. We usually carry 20 plus and I think most of the kids know their role.
TXdad2019 posted:23 on our Varsity, 15 seniors and 8 Juniors. Very competitive HS baseball team. Mine has an MRI in next two weeks on pitching arm and is shut down right now. Only a Junior, but a very important year for recruiting. I'm just happy the coach is letting him stick around until we find out the results of the MRI. Praying it's nothing major. We usually carry 20 plus and I think most of the kids know their role.
Best wishes on receiving a good report from the doctor.
Daily inter squad games, keep record of every AB, hits, runs, errors and RBI, coaches pitch. The best players each week start the games. This is motivation to improve.
Bob
I don’t think 22 is too many at all. In Georgia, you play 2-3 games every week. I realize a lot of guys are 2 way players in high school, but the biggest problem is the typical HS gets through the season with mainly 2 starters and 1 or 2 other guys that get the bulk of the innings. When playoffs roll around, that doesn’t work. I would try to have at least 6 guys sharing the load to prepare for the post season. If you have ANY ambition to play beyond HS, you better get used to it. D1 carries 35 guys. Son’s team had 21 pitchers last year. No more than 10-12 had any significant innings. That’s a LOT of pitchers that sat and watched all season.
Normal in competitive regions in metro Atlanta. Just wait till college......
DrUGA Dawg posted:Normal in competitive regions in metro Atlanta. Just wait till college......
I am surprised how common it is around the country now. Both my sons have been on teams with less than 18 on varsity. Sure during the season some kids get called up from JV, but never started with more than 18.
I learn something new all the time
Cant compare college rosters to HS. 60 9-inning games vs 30 7-inning games. Traveling thousands of miles vs in our case here a couple hundred over the course of the season.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Cut them and you deal with angry parent one or two days
Keep them and you deal with angry parent the whole season
This is obviously worst case scenario. If you keep a kid who is a program guy but won't see a lot of playing time then you better explain that to him. I tell kids they don't have the talent to play much but because of work ethic, attitude, etc... we would like for them to stay but they won't play much and will be expected to show up and work hard. I give them that decision to make if they stay or not but if they stay they will not complain
In the Midwest we are playing 3-5 games per week from late March through mid May in 30s, 40s and 50s weather and A LOT of rain. We need 25 kids, especially the pitchers. Kids get sick and injured and pitchers can’t be overused. In warmer weather climates from what I understand there are a couple of games each week. You may not necessarily need as many players.
This issue comes up from time to time. In my opinion, 22 kids for the roster is probably not a big deal if those who are unlikely to get much playing time are content with their diminished role. And many of those will likely be seniors who stuck with the program for 4 years (and yes, they should be allowed to stay on the team).
In a really competitive baseball district, 22 might be necessary, with many POs (including inning burners when up or down big), etc.
We have too many seniors this year, but I've only cut 2 so far. They have till scrimmages end for the "final" cut. I likely won't cut anymore, though simply by talent I probably should.
To me the key to pulling it off is two-fold: solid communication of what their role will be and the ability to cut them mid-season if grumbling begins.
I plan on telling 3 kids that they will likely never cross the lines. They'll get a jersey during the season, but will likely give it up for the playoffs (they'll wear a BP top) so I can give it to a callup kid who might play. They are expected to be at every practice and workout and find a way to make a positive contribution on a regular basis. If they can't handle all of that they need to turn in their stuff.
These are good kids who have been with us for 4-years, they're good friends with the team and want to see their friends succeed, so I think we can pull it off.
I've been down the grumpy senior road in the past, and it can kill a team, but I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I am now.
If negativity begins to creep in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus.
Batty67 posted:And many of those will likely be seniors who stuck with the program for 4 years (and yes, they should be allowed to stay on the team).
Do you let them letter? Here, even if you don't play, if you stick with the team for four years, you letter.
We have that many on Fresh JV and Varsity teams at least, most years. Some years we have to add a fourth team (Jr-Soph team) to account for good sophs who were not going to get playing time on Varsity but who needed to play against better competition to improve. We have many kids who are POs and others who are specialty players. We play a lot of games and we need pitchers to eat up innings so that our top tier pitchers dont get worn out before playoffs.
The kids know this coming in as Freshman and they know they must compete each week for playing time. Practices are intense and competitive and many times harder than some of the games. By the time playoffs are here we have fresh pitchers and our boys are ready for playoff level baseball.
It is true that some boys will only get minimal ABs and PT but many stay around for the comradery.The team chemistry is very good despite the competition for playing time at every position.
IRONHORSE wrote, "If negativity creeps in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus."
IMO this is how to handle the concerns expressed in the OP. Agree 100%
VS roster is 28 and has been since the beginning. It helps with fundraising. LOL
The talent depth has a lot to do with it. If you split our roster in half I wouldn't be surprised if the the second half won over half of their games.
Senior starter strikes out.
Senior benchwarmer #1 mutters, "I could've done that."
Senior benchwarmer #2 mutters, "Me too."
Ass't coach yells, "Somebody on that foul ball!"
Senior benchwarmer #1 replies, "I'm on it coach!"
i Just think keeping seniors on a team “because they have been with us 4 years” is sending the wrong message. Son’s HS has a senior class with 13 players, three of two of whom were never varsity guys - ever. Should they get a roster spot just to keep them happy, or their parents, or to help with fundraisIng? That is a big point here because many programs have these kids make donations or solicit donations to help fund the programs prior to cuts. Now that Johnny’s Family has “carried the water” financially it seems he gets a jersey as a participation award. That doesn’t sound like competitive baseball to me, it sounds like if you fundraise and hang on long enough you get a jersey. That is Rec league crap.
I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
And in my mind I'm not simply giving a kid a spot. In our program we emphasize character, being a good student/citizen, and being a good player. If a kid can do the first two of those (which isn't as easy as it may seems sometimes), then I'm ok with letting him be on the team and enjoy the experience, assuming he is a positive force. He's earned by 3 years of hard work and buy in.
Playing time will never be given based on just being on the team, but a good kid who's invested can still contribute in a ton of ways.
Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions.
freddy77 posted:Senior starter strikes out.
Senior benchwarmer #1 mutters, "I could've done that."
Senior benchwarmer #2 mutters, "Me too."
Ass't coach yells, "Somebody on that foul ball!"
Senior benchwarmer #1 replies, "I'm on it coach!"
We had this last year. My son was a junior and never sat. Many seniors never played, and he knew they complained about it. But he didn't LISTEN to them, and it didn't IMPACT him.
Kids who know what they want and are busy going after it, don't have time to worry about what other people say or do.
ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
And in my mind I'm not simply giving a kid a spot. In our program we emphasize character, being a good student/citizen, and being a good player. If a kid can do the first two of those (which isn't as easy as it may seems sometimes), then I'm ok with letting him be on the team and enjoy the experience, assuming he is a positive force. He's earned by 3 years of hard work and buy in.
Playing time will never be given based on just being on the team, but a good kid who's invested can still contribute in a ton of ways.
Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions.
Ding, Ding, Ding !!!! Yes, this!
ironhorse posted:We have too many seniors this year, but I've only cut 2 so far. They have till scrimmages end for the "final" cut. I likely won't cut anymore, though simply by talent I probably should.
To me the key to pulling it off is two-fold: solid communication of what their role will be and the ability to cut them mid-season if grumbling begins.
I plan on telling 3 kids that they will likely never cross the lines. They'll get a jersey during the season, but will likely give it up for the playoffs (they'll wear a BP top) so I can give it to a callup kid who might play. They are expected to be at every practice and workout and find a way to make a positive contribution on a regular basis. If they can't handle all of that they need to turn in their stuff.
These are good kids who have been with us for 4-years, they're good friends with the team and want to see their friends succeed, so I think we can pull it off.
I've been down the grumpy senior road in the past, and it can kill a team, but I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I am now.
If negativity begins to creep in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus.
I've always had a hard time understanding how a HS kid at the bottom of the roster would never receive playing time. Aren't there usually a few blow out games either way where you could throw the kid a bone?
To me, if the kid works hard and has a positive attitude, they should be rewarded in these types of situations.
I agree and I've seen it way too many times. Kid works hard all season, parents do their part with all of the volunteer stuff, the team has a large lead and the kid sits on the bench. It's one of the main reasons I am not a fan of HS baseball around here.
Daily inter squad games use double DH, 6 outs per inning for the players to receive many AB's. If you are inside with batting tunnels have team pitchers [use pitching screen]; throw to a catcher and hitter. Grade the batted ball as out, hit, hit hard, pop up. When not hitting, play pepper with tennis balls.
Bob
rynoattack posted:ironhorse posted:We have too many seniors this year, but I've only cut 2 so far. They have till scrimmages end for the "final" cut. I likely won't cut anymore, though simply by talent I probably should.
To me the key to pulling it off is two-fold: solid communication of what their role will be and the ability to cut them mid-season if grumbling begins.
I plan on telling 3 kids that they will likely never cross the lines. They'll get a jersey during the season, but will likely give it up for the playoffs (they'll wear a BP top) so I can give it to a callup kid who might play. They are expected to be at every practice and workout and find a way to make a positive contribution on a regular basis. If they can't handle all of that they need to turn in their stuff.
These are good kids who have been with us for 4-years, they're good friends with the team and want to see their friends succeed, so I think we can pull it off.
I've been down the grumpy senior road in the past, and it can kill a team, but I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I am now.
If negativity begins to creep in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus.
I've always had a hard time understanding how a HS kid at the bottom of the roster would never receive playing time. Aren't there usually a few blow out games either way where you could throw the kid a bone?
To me, if the kid works hard and has a positive attitude, they should be rewarded in these types of situations.
^That’s exactly what our HC did last season.
adbono posted:Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles.
IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
I think whether there will be anger depends on the coach. Most people are realistic. The kids definitely know who the players are and aren't. If the coach has a plan where the kids who play give the team the best chance to win, then most problems will be avoided. When the coach makes decisions where cause people to shake their heads is what causes problems. Like DH the senior who is like 0 for his entire 3 previous years. Or playing a kid in the infield because of his body style, not talent. Or not giving a kid the opportunity because he doesn't hit weak ground balls, but instead 25-30 deg. launch angle bombs which hit the "top of the net." When the losses pile up because of this type of BS, yes people get angry. Or overplaying your pitchers/outfielders so that by the end of they season they where out of gas - a day of rest after an outing never hurt anyone. Sum the season up in a first round playoff loss to a cross town team which you "should have beaten easily." oops.
Golfman makes a good point. HS rules (allowing starters to be pulled and return) do give an opportunity for role players. This year I believe we will have two fast kids -- the two fastest on the team in a 30 yard dash -- serve as pinch runners every game. They won't get many ABs (if any) but they will contribute to the team.
Golfman25 posted:adbono posted:Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles.
IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
Even rarer are parents of starters who understand and appreciate this kind of approach. Our guy does it and it makes me crazy. Last minute subs, kids already in the box getting pulled for a pinch hitter. All this in competitive games. Fine line between artistic and impulsive behavior.
Just as Ironhorse said this about putting together rosters...
"Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions."
... much of the same applies to in-game substitutions and PT. We usually have a pretty strong schedule so not to many blowouts. When we do, sometimes there can be a fine line between having a four or five run lead with your #3 pitcher and all of a sudden run ruling a team and having the game called short. Often, at various points in the game, things could have gone either way. If you pull the plug on starters early and it backfires on you, that's about the worst move you can make. People see a final score that implies a comfortable win and wonder why more guys didn't get in. They don't necessarily know how the game unfolded and what could have happened along the way.
For many of us, those multiple sub opportunities don't come that often. When they do come up, one could certainly argue that the program is better off giving those opportunities to the young players that will be contributors in the future and need game experience than to a senior who you know won't be. Still, there is sentimental pull.
Just a few of the MANY layers...
adbono posted:Golfman25 posted:...IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
When's that kid gonna graduate already ? 
cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:Golfman25 posted:...IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
When's that kid gonna graduate already ?
He is a little slow. Probably gonna go into coaching.
adbono posted:cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:Golfman25 posted:...IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
When's that kid gonna graduate already ?
He is a little slow. Probably gonna go into coaching.
OK, that was good. I got nothin' Cuz, you know...
cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:cabbagedad posted:adbono posted:Golfman25 posted:...IDK. I watched a coach get at least 15+ kids in a competitive varsity game (not including pitchers). It was a sight to be seen. Double pinch runners, Pinch hitters, you name it. Bottom line, every player was engaged because he never knew when his number would be called.
A coach that can (and will) do this is a rare exception. At least that has been my experience in the 6 years I have had a kid playing HS baseball.
When's that kid gonna graduate already ?
He is a little slow. Probably gonna go into coaching.
OK, that was good. I got nothin' Cuz, you know...
cabbagedad posted:Just as Ironhorse said this about putting together rosters...
"Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions."
... much of the same applies to in-game substitutions and PT. We usually have a pretty strong schedule so not to many blowouts. When we do, sometimes there can be a fine line between having a four or five run lead with your #3 pitcher and all of a sudden run ruling a team and having the game called short. Often, at various points in the game, things could have gone either way. If you pull the plug on starters early and it backfires on you, that's about the worst move you can make. People see a final score that implies a comfortable win and wonder why more guys didn't get in. They don't necessarily know how the game unfolded and what could have happened along the way.
For many of us, those multiple sub opportunities don't come that often. When they do come up, one could certainly argue that the program is better off giving those opportunities to the young players that will be contributors in the future and need game experience than to a senior who you know won't be. Still, there is sentimental pull.
Just a few of the MANY layers...
Cabbage, do you have run rules? I thought you were CIF-SS? I know we don't have them (must play all 7 innings) . . . is it by league, rather than section?
ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
Consultant posted:Daily inter squad games use double DH, 6 outs per inning for the players to receive many AB's. If you are inside with batting tunnels have team pitchers [use pitching screen]; throw to a catcher and hitter. Grade the batted ball as out, hit, hit hard, pop up. When not hitting, play pepper with tennis balls.
Bob
Is that what you would want as a kid for your senior year HS baseball experience? “I played inter squad games.”
no thanks
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
Nah, if the coach has communicated his roll to him and he has accepted it, it's his choice. Gets to workout and be part of something. It's the coach's and the kid's call, not someone in the bleachers.
updated for gramma n spellin.
Son was on a team last year with 6 guys who were in a similar situation. 2 played significant time due to injuries of others, one spoke no English and couldn’t complain to anyone anyway, and 3 were cancers because they thought they should be starters. Reality is it is a rare player who is happy being on the bench, have seen it personally. Keep the roster lean, make it meaningful for those who are there to compete. If the kid is a great kid, he will find other pursuits.
rynoattack posted:ironhorse posted:We have too many seniors this year, but I've only cut 2 so far. They have till scrimmages end for the "final" cut. I likely won't cut anymore, though simply by talent I probably should.
To me the key to pulling it off is two-fold: solid communication of what their role will be and the ability to cut them mid-season if grumbling begins.
I plan on telling 3 kids that they will likely never cross the lines. They'll get a jersey during the season, but will likely give it up for the playoffs (they'll wear a BP top) so I can give it to a callup kid who might play. They are expected to be at every practice and workout and find a way to make a positive contribution on a regular basis. If they can't handle all of that they need to turn in their stuff.
These are good kids who have been with us for 4-years, they're good friends with the team and want to see their friends succeed, so I think we can pull it off.
I've been down the grumpy senior road in the past, and it can kill a team, but I may not have communicated as thoroughly as I am now.
If negativity begins to creep in, kids will be removed. No hesitation. And I'm getting much better at cutting kids their Junior year to avoid this circus.
I've always had a hard time understanding how a HS kid at the bottom of the roster would never receive playing time. Aren't there usually a few blow out games either way where you could throw the kid a bone?
To me, if the kid works hard and has a positive attitude, they should be rewarded in these types of situations.
Completely agree with the sentiment. A couple of our Seniors are PO kids who can't throw strikes, and flat can't hit. So even in a blowout it's tough. Kid threw 25 pitches tonight and 23 balls. Was progressing in the fall but regressing now. So what do you do? He's a good kid so I lean to keeping him around, but to each his own.
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
Last year our team had a few seniors that had played JV as juniors and saw plenty of playing time, and had the choice to wear a varsity uniform and hardly ever play or stick with JV. They chose varsity. And I know at least one kids parents still came to almost every game. Mom brought her knitting. Not what I’d want for my kid if the situation was similar but I guess they had their reasons.
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
A. It's Kumbaya
B. It doesn't matter what you would prefer the coach to do. It's your kids baseball career.
C. Good communication = not "stringing kids along" I said this a million times now.
Not trying to be a savior, simply communicating honestly with kids and giving them an opportunity to choose their path. Not basing it on what their dad would prefer.
I'm sorry you've had enough of my honesty and good communication. I'll stop that.
If it was just about the innings played it would only be worth it to 10 or 12 guys right? Would it even be worth it if your team was not very good? If this whole thing is about how much you play why would you have more than 11 or 12 players ever?
Why do coaches invest in players that will never contribute on the field in games or play meaningful innings? Why do coaches spend hours upon hours working with kids that will more than likely never contribute? Why not just work with the one's that you see potential in?
Why would anyone ever want their kid to be on a team when they were not going to be a starter and or get playing time? What a waste of time.
Could it be that the baseball is only a fraction of what is important? Could it be the baseball is used to teach things much more important than a game? Could it be that the baseball gets them together but something else keeps them together, for life? Could it be the baseball is important now but pales in comparison to what is learned through the game? Will anyone care what your batting average was or wasn't 20 years from now? Will it matter if you learned how to be on time, what true commitment is, the value of team work, discipline, sacrifice?
You want to know what my former players talk about when they get together? They rarely talk about the games won, the big hit, the great play, who were the studs. They talk about that time Jimmy ate 4 Whopper's after a game. They talk about the time they had to run for playing around at the cage and how they almost passed out. They talk about the bus rides, the talk about the investment it took to be on the team, they talk about the pride in being a part of something bigger than them. No one cares what your batting average was. No one cares how many innings you played. Do you value one child over the other because one has more talent? Do you value one sibling over the other because one had more talent?
Why do I keep players that will rarely contribute or never contribute? Why do I want to keep more kids than I actually need to round out a team? Because I want as many kids as possible to experience the experience. I want as many kids as possible to get things much more important than baseball. It doesn't hurt my feelings that kids won't get to start or experience being good players. It hurts my feelings to know they won't be part of something they can carry with them long after the baseball has ended.
The most important thing about playing on a team is not what goes on during the 2 or 3 hours of a game. The most important thing about playing on a team is being on a team. The most important things your son will learn from playing on a team will never show up in a box score. If it was just about who could play and who couldn't play it wouldn't be worth what I invest. It's much more important and valuable than that.
Honest open communication. Teaching young men it's bigger than you. It's not about me its about we. If you have to be a starter or a major contributor to realize the value to being a member of a team then you have no team. You have a group of individuals calling themselves a team. If every member of the team understands their role and works to bring value and expand that role for the good of the whole you have a team.
As a parent what do I value the most from my son's athletic experience? Is it the accomplishments on the field? Is it the awards and trophies? Is it the notoriety they gained? Or is it those things that helped them become the men they are today? The things that they learned through the game, the struggles, tough times, life lessons, perseverance, team work, dedication, determination, work ethic, grinditthefout never give up trust in yourself toughness, respect for those guys that lay it on the line just like you, fight for it, life isn't fair but that's ok, keep on grinding, pick him up, pick yourself up, treat others the way you would want to be treated, humility, sacrifice, it's bigger than you, be that guy, don't be that guy, if it was easy everyone would do it, your feelings are not fact's deal with the truth, excuses never solved a problem, on and on it goes. All of that can be learned and much more even if you never get off the bench in a game.
Sometimes the greatest experience you can give someone is viewed by others as a total failure. Tell them to stop reading the box scores and just watch my life.
Yeah. What the said.
Not to change the subject, which Coach May nailed with his typically wonderful insights, but when I read his last sentence the first time, I thought he wrote “stop reading the box scores and just watch my WIFE.”
ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
A. It's Kumbaya
B. It doesn't matter what you would prefer the coach to do. It's your kids baseball career.
C. Good communication = not "stringing kids along" I said this a million times now.
Not trying to be a savior, simply communicating honestly with kids and giving them an opportunity to choose their path. Not basing it on what their dad would prefer.
I'm sorry you've had enough of my honesty and good communication. I'll stop that.
If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.
Chicago643 posted:If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.
You literally guessed wrong on every aspect of my life above. That's fun.
And I asked the question because I know I don't have all the answers. I've never sat on the other side as a parent and was interested in trying to learn more about that perspective. I've been doing this a while now, but I don't want to stop learning how to do things better. I think I improved our parent meeting this year, so I'm proud of that.
And they may not be paying me to "develop well rounded people" in your eyes, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. I'm pretty proud of the way we develop quality citizens, but a guy like you will never get that, so why waste my time?
ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.
You literally guessed wrong on every aspect of my life above. That's fun.
And I asked the question because I know I don't have all the answers. I've never sat on the other side as a parent and was interested in trying to learn more about that perspective. I've been doing this a while now, but I don't want to stop learning how to do things better. I think I improved our parent meeting this year, so I'm proud of that.
And they may not be paying me to "develop well rounded people" in your eyes, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. I'm pretty proud of the way we develop quality citizens, but a guy like you will never get that, so why waste my time?
Your inability to accept the opposing viewpoint without being defensive and condescending show a level of narcissism that is pretty unattractive. You aren’t willing to hear a contrarian viewpoint, you just want to live in an echo chamber of your own thoughts.
I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people.
And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.
cabbagedad posted:Just as Ironhorse said this about putting together rosters...
"Don't underestimate the different layers that go into deciding on a varsity roster if you've never done it. It looks easy until you're make the decisions rather than suggestions."
... much of the same applies to in-game substitutions and PT. We usually have a pretty strong schedule so not to many blowouts. When we do, sometimes there can be a fine line between having a four or five run lead with your #3 pitcher and all of a sudden run ruling a team and having the game called short. Often, at various points in the game, things could have gone either way. If you pull the plug on starters early and it backfires on you, that's about the worst move you can make. People see a final score that implies a comfortable win and wonder why more guys didn't get in. They don't necessarily know how the game unfolded and what could have happened along the way.
For many of us, those multiple sub opportunities don't come that often. When they do come up, one could certainly argue that the program is better off giving those opportunities to the young players that will be contributors in the future and need game experience than to a senior who you know won't be. Still, there is sentimental pull.
Just a few of the MANY layers...
I see that point, but as a father of a kid that always got to play, I still believe there are opportunities to get those bottom of the roster kids some PT. HS is probably 30 games a year, so logic says there are some opportunities. (Blow Outs either way)
Coach_May posted:If it was just about the innings played it would only be worth it to 10 or 12 guys right? Would it even be worth it if your team was not very good? If this whole thing is about how much you play why would you have more than 11 or 12 players ever?
Why do coaches invest in players that will never contribute on the field in games or play meaningful innings? Why do coaches spend hours upon hours working with kids that will more than likely never contribute? Why not just work with the one's that you see potential in?
Why would anyone ever want their kid to be on a team when they were not going to be a starter and or get playing time? What a waste of time.
Could it be that the baseball is only a fraction of what is important? Could it be the baseball is used to teach things much more important than a game? Could it be that the baseball gets them together but something else keeps them together, for life? Could it be the baseball is important now but pales in comparison to what is learned through the game? Will anyone care what your batting average was or wasn't 20 years from now? Will it matter if you learned how to be on time, what true commitment is, the value of team work, discipline, sacrifice?
You want to know what my former players talk about when they get together? They rarely talk about the games won, the big hit, the great play, who were the studs. They talk about that time Jimmy ate 4 Whopper's after a game. They talk about the time they had to run for playing around at the cage and how they almost passed out. They talk about the bus rides, the talk about the investment it took to be on the team, they talk about the pride in being a part of something bigger than them. No one cares what your batting average was. No one cares how many innings you played. Do you value one child over the other because one has more talent? Do you value one sibling over the other because one had more talent?
Why do I keep players that will rarely contribute or never contribute? Why do I want to keep more kids than I actually need to round out a team? Because I want as many kids as possible to experience the experience. I want as many kids as possible to get things much more important than baseball. It doesn't hurt my feelings that kids won't get to start or experience being good players. It hurts my feelings to know they won't be part of something they can carry with them long after the baseball has ended.
The most important thing about playing on a team is not what goes on during the 2 or 3 hours of a game. The most important thing about playing on a team is being on a team. The most important things your son will learn from playing on a team will never show up in a box score. If it was just about who could play and who couldn't play it wouldn't be worth what I invest. It's much more important and valuable than that.
Honest open communication. Teaching young men it's bigger than you. It's not about me its about we. If you have to be a starter or a major contributor to realize the value to being a member of a team then you have no team. You have a group of individuals calling themselves a team. If every member of the team understands their role and works to bring value and expand that role for the good of the whole you have a team.
As a parent what do I value the most from my son's athletic experience? Is it the accomplishments on the field? Is it the awards and trophies? Is it the notoriety they gained? Or is it those things that helped them become the men they are today? The things that they learned through the game, the struggles, tough times, life lessons, perseverance, team work, dedication, determination, work ethic, grinditthefout never give up trust in yourself toughness, respect for those guys that lay it on the line just like you, fight for it, life isn't fair but that's ok, keep on grinding, pick him up, pick yourself up, treat others the way you would want to be treated, humility, sacrifice, it's bigger than you, be that guy, don't be that guy, if it was easy everyone would do it, your feelings are not fact's deal with the truth, excuses never solved a problem, on and on it goes. All of that can be learned and much more even if you never get off the bench in a game.
Sometimes the greatest experience you can give someone is viewed by others as a total failure. Tell them to stop reading the box scores and just watch my life.
I agree with all of the above, and that is why I believe it shouldn't matter if the bottom of the line-up gets a bone every now and then. Telling a kid that he will never see the field is wrong IMHO. If he's on the team, a part of the team, contributing a good attitude to the team, etc., he should be rewarded with an opportunity. Frankly, if everything you said above is true, and the importance is the team, then it should be ok for some to sacrifice a little PT for the less talented players.
ironhorse posted:I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people.
And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.
"... you just want to live in an echo chamber of your own thoughts."
Is that anyway related to a glass case of emotion...? 
Truer than you know Bolts Coach
Coach_May posted:If it was just about the innings played it would only be worth it to 10 or 12 guys right? Would it even be worth it if your team was not very good? If this whole thing is about how much you play why would you have more than 11 or 12 players ever?
Why do coaches invest in players that will never contribute on the field in games or play meaningful innings? Why do coaches spend hours upon hours working with kids that will more than likely never contribute? Why not just work with the one's that you see potential in?
Why would anyone ever want their kid to be on a team when they were not going to be a starter and or get playing time? What a waste of time.
Could it be that the baseball is only a fraction of what is important? Could it be the baseball is used to teach things much more important than a game? Could it be that the baseball gets them together but something else keeps them together, for life? Could it be the baseball is important now but pales in comparison to what is learned through the game? Will anyone care what your batting average was or wasn't 20 years from now? Will it matter if you learned how to be on time, what true commitment is, the value of team work, discipline, sacrifice?
You want to know what my former players talk about when they get together? They rarely talk about the games won, the big hit, the great play, who were the studs. They talk about that time Jimmy ate 4 Whopper's after a game. They talk about the time they had to run for playing around at the cage and how they almost passed out. They talk about the bus rides, the talk about the investment it took to be on the team, they talk about the pride in being a part of something bigger than them. No one cares what your batting average was. No one cares how many innings you played. Do you value one child over the other because one has more talent? Do you value one sibling over the other because one had more talent?
Why do I keep players that will rarely contribute or never contribute? Why do I want to keep more kids than I actually need to round out a team? Because I want as many kids as possible to experience the experience. I want as many kids as possible to get things much more important than baseball. It doesn't hurt my feelings that kids won't get to start or experience being good players. It hurts my feelings to know they won't be part of something they can carry with them long after the baseball has ended.
The most important thing about playing on a team is not what goes on during the 2 or 3 hours of a game. The most important thing about playing on a team is being on a team. The most important things your son will learn from playing on a team will never show up in a box score. If it was just about who could play and who couldn't play it wouldn't be worth what I invest. It's much more important and valuable than that.
Honest open communication. Teaching young men it's bigger than you. It's not about me its about we. If you have to be a starter or a major contributor to realize the value to being a member of a team then you have no team. You have a group of individuals calling themselves a team. If every member of the team understands their role and works to bring value and expand that role for the good of the whole you have a team.
As a parent what do I value the most from my son's athletic experience? Is it the accomplishments on the field? Is it the awards and trophies? Is it the notoriety they gained? Or is it those things that helped them become the men they are today? The things that they learned through the game, the struggles, tough times, life lessons, perseverance, team work, dedication, determination, work ethic, grinditthefout never give up trust in yourself toughness, respect for those guys that lay it on the line just like you, fight for it, life isn't fair but that's ok, keep on grinding, pick him up, pick yourself up, treat others the way you would want to be treated, humility, sacrifice, it's bigger than you, be that guy, don't be that guy, if it was easy everyone would do it, your feelings are not fact's deal with the truth, excuses never solved a problem, on and on it goes. All of that can be learned and much more even if you never get off the bench in a game.
Sometimes the greatest experience you can give someone is viewed by others as a total failure. Tell them to stop reading the box scores and just watch my life.
Great post Coach May; 100% agree.
I was never a great baseball player (really a football player doing a mediocre catcher impression), but I played for a couple of legendary coaches who were truly leaders of men. I would not trade the life lessons I picked up from them (and the game) for anything. This was particularly valuable given I lost my dad at a very young age.
My experience, as well as all of the things you mention about hard work, accountability and camaraderie are why I have pushed my boys to play in HS. Any accolades or play beyond HS is gravy.
I think there are valid arguments on both sides of the coin. So unless you are the coach, what does it matter to you? I never understand why bystanders can get so upset about these type of scenarios.
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
It depends on the program. Winning programs will attract more kids to be part of something. Loosing programs, well the work just isn't worth it.
I do not think it can come down to strictly numbers. It comes down to the coach, the program and the players involved. Some programs and coaches can handle Large numbers. They communicate well and everyone knows there role. Now can a players role change? I believe yes. We had a young man in my sons class. He got little playing time during Freshman, Sophomore or Junior year. The coach had talked to the player after his junior year and explained what he could expect his senior year if he did not meet certain goals. The young man came back his senior year. He did not meet all those goals, but he met most of them and was much improved. During cuts, he explained that he would be a PO, and get an inning or two depending on how things were going and how the rest of the bull pen preformed. One of those innings came early in the year, and he came out to pitch and had changed his delivery and was pitching side arm. Did he have a lot of velocity no, He was around the strike zone but not always in it. But he was very tough to hit. While the rest of the bull pen struggled he was relied on more an more. He turned out to be one of our better pitchers out of the Bull pen that year, and racked up quite a few innings. Was this a great team, no. It was a very young team with few seniors. But the coach did not dismiss him because the talent was not there, he never gave up on the kid, and he preformed very well. I talk to his parents often, we are still friends. His parents still talk about how much that season meant to their son and to them.
Did other seniors get this opportunity? No, Some of them came improved but not enough, and one that actually had some talent, was still cut, because his attitude and the example he set for younger members of the team.
Each young man needs to be taken on a case to case basis. You cannot and should not treat each one exactly the same. You need to asses and judge what is best for the young man, the other young men on the team and take appropriate action. Just because you keep one senior does not mean you need to keep them all. One of these seniors had lots to offer off the field and in the dug out, and practice. The other did not.
Chicago643 posted:
If you already have all the answers as a coach, why are you posing questions like “what do you want to hear in a parent meeting?” You apparently already know w what is best for everyone. Assuming to are between 24-30, don’t have kids and feel pretty cocky that you may have played college ball at some level and now have the opportunity to “develop” citizens....newsflash, nobody is paying you to develop well rounded people, Ironhorse.
Actually, if he is a high school teacher/coach that is exactly what they are paying him for.
ironhorse posted:I don't want to hear a contrarian viewpoint says the guy who questioned why I was asking for the input of other people.
And I hate that you find me unattractive. I thought we may have something.
Thank you there buddy for a big bite of my lunch ending up on my lap. Hahahaha. I appreciate it.
If/when my kid is cut next week I promise I will not come on here and complain.
My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine. There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit. The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start. I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone. I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy. I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech. All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down. I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash. I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year. I decided to make this year school first. We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year. The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs. If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.
I think we have 27 on varsity . 18 seniors which is the old coaches fault. No guarantees of playing time though
11 sr's 10 jr's 16 soph's 15 freshman..... two jv teams and varsity.... gotta fund raise..... all about the money
V = 22 (6 PO's), JV = 20 (3 PO's), no 9th grade team. We have 13 seniors graduating. The big roster in my opinion is for:
1. We play 3 games a week, we need to have enough pitching and enough to account for the flu/bad grades/in school trouble and is benched/and general injury.
2. With 13 kids graduating do you really do a total rebuild next year or do you have an extra 9 players that can learn the ropes of Varsity while only playing in blow outs?
3. 12th grade mentors 10th grade, 11th grade mentors 9th grade....this is how you build a TEAM.
hsbaseball101 posted:My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine. There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit. The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start. I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone. I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy. I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech. All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down. I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash. I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year. I decided to make this year school first. We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year. The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs. If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.
Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.
Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.
Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team? You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....
It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.
PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.
Back when my son played Varsity, the roster was never more than 15 total with three pitchers of which one was a PO. Fortunately they were limited to a 20 game regular season (VHSL rules) and at most played three games per week - most of the time it was two games per week.
The JV roster was about the same size. No ninth grade team (unheard of around here).
In addition: I know I will probably get some push back here but that is fine & I welcome the debate.
We talk about the "student athlete." I understand that. I get the motive & I follow the logic. But let me ask you this. If Johnny goes 4/4 with 2 Dingers does Mr. Johnson who teaches his Civics class give a rip ? Does it raise his GPA? In fact, it has ZERO relation to his Civics class or any other class for that matter.
From the perspective of the baseball coach, there are 2 kinds of players. Those who are eligible to play & those who are not. This is the Baseball Team. Not Glee Club, Honor Roll or the Academic All Conference Team. Your players may make those squads, great. That is not your mission although you can certainly encourage it & should. However, the truth is that some of these guys are not going to go to college & this is their last shot to play. They meet the eligibility guidelines & should be then evaluated as players.
If not, where does it end? Do you then take into account grades, community service, parent snack bar participation, fundraising??
When I was in school, we had to turn in weekly progress reports to our coaching staff. The coaches prospective was that you represent your team in the classroom. Negative teacher remarks earned you time on the bench. I don't have a problem with this as long as the coaches communicate it clearly. If you met the minimum GPA 2.0 you qualified. It was about effort and attitude in the classroom. Turn your work in and respect the teacher and fellow students. If you can't do that don't bother playing "extracurricular" sports..
We have advised our players to send in extra work and special reports relating to baseball. History, Civics, Engineering, Social Psychology all have a relationship with baseball.
My extra credit paper will titled "The Interactionary Behavior of Professional Baseball Players".
Bob
Steve A. posted:hsbaseball101 posted:My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine. There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit. The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start. I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone. I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy. I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech. All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down. I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash. I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year. I decided to make this year school first. We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year. The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs. If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.
Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.
Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.
Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team? You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....
It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.
PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.
The NFHS that certifies HS coaches requests that we be more like mentors to students than simply athletic coaches.
hsbaseball101 posted:Steve A. posted:hsbaseball101 posted:My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine. There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit. The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start. I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone. I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy. I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech. All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down. I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash. I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year. I decided to make this year school first. We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year. The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs. If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.
Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.
Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.
Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team? You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....
It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.
PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.
The NFHS that certifies HS coaches requests that we be more like mentors to students than simply athletic coaches.
Then be a mentor and understand that not all brains are created equal. Johnny might not study but gets 85-95% on his tests because he got what the teacher was saying. Timmy listens in class and studies for hours and gets a 74%.
I wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until college, it doesn't mean I wasn't trying in school. My coaches didn't penalize me. Kids have IEP's to assist them, you going to take those into account? How about the 30-40% of baseball players that take ADHD meds....just forget that they space out through no fault of their own?
Being a mentor doesn't mean you reward kids who have better developed brains, heck they probably need less building up than the kid who is honestly struggling to make it through high school. You want to get reports from teachers on who is trying and who is asleep in class, go for it, but please rethink your plan of best grades play. School is not cut and dry for MANY kids.
CaCO3Girl posted:hsbaseball101 posted:Steve A. posted:hsbaseball101 posted:My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine. There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit. The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start. I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone. I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy. I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech. All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down. I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash. I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year. I decided to make this year school first. We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year. The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs. If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.
Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.
Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.
Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team? You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....
It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.
PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.
The NFHS that certifies HS coaches requests that we be more like mentors to students than simply athletic coaches.
Then be a mentor and understand that not all brains are created equal. Johnny might not study but gets 85-95% on his tests because he got what the teacher was saying. Timmy listens in class and studies for hours and gets a 74%.
I wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until college, it doesn't mean I wasn't trying in school. My coaches didn't penalize me. Kids have IEP's to assist them, you going to take those into account? How about the 30-40% of baseball players that take ADHD meds....just forget that they space out through no fault of their own?
Being a mentor doesn't mean you reward kids who have better developed brains, heck they probably need less building up than the kid who is honestly struggling to make it through high school. You want to get reports from teachers on who is trying and who is asleep in class, go for it, but please rethink your plan of best grades play. School is not cut and dry for MANY kids.
All situations are different. I have one kid who going by his grades is #2 on the list for subbing in, but he's actually my best player. However he's an EL student who's trying to take regular classes this year and it's starting to become difficult. I'm likely going to start him at the position he's got the best grades in, but it's not his first preferred position. The guys with the worst grades unfortunately are the hardest working in practice, but they're also the weakest in skill. I want to start them over others due to their work ethic, but I have to tell them to skip practice and go to after school tutoring instead.
Can't tell if you are being serious or not.
If you are, please do not start players based on a ranking of their grades.
That might be the craziest thing I've ever heard. As long as they are eligible, play the best players. It is okay to punish if you get reports they are skipping class or being disrespectful, etc.,..
But to rank who starts and plays by grades is a disaster waiting to happen and really makes no sense.
I liked the example provided before. A teacher doesn't take into account baseball stats when grading a test, so why are you evaluating students academic skill when giving out playing time?
Don't ruin kids careers or their high school experience for some experiment that you think in some way makes sense.
Pipes2 posted:Can't tell if you are being serious or not.
If you are, please do not start players based on a ranking of their grades.
That might be the craziest thing I've ever heard. As long as they are eligible, play the best players. It is okay to punish if you get reports they are skipping class or being disrespectful, etc.,..
But to rank who starts and plays by grades is a disaster waiting to happen and really makes no sense.
I liked the example provided before. A teacher doesn't take into account baseball stats when grading a test, so why are you evaluating students academic skill when giving out playing time?
Don't ruin kids careers or their high school experience for some experiment that you think in some way makes sense.
I understand that as a player first, student second that can be frustrating. You could try to the best of your ability and still not succeed academically. Sports could be all you want out of school. If I had a kid who absolutely loved baseball I'd take that into consideration.
Does the track team put the 4 fastest in the relay or does Jimmy get the anchor because he got an A in Chemistry?
Does the 6'8" kid who is a beast get minutes on the court or Billy (5'2") plays center because he has a 4.15 GPA?
Is Johnny the QB for the football team because he aced Spanish 4 or does Michael Vick play QB?
For some reason, baseball is different & part of the reason is because to the average person, without a ton of experience or knowledge, deciding who rates as a player above another is not as readily apparent. It is more difficult to justify decisions on playing time to Mom & Dad so therefore all kinds of absurdity takes the place of logic when determining playing time. Such as using grades to decide who gets innings.
101 we have had some good exchanges. I say this to help, not to pile on. IMO, I think you are taking some of the NFHS stuff too literally. I, too, lean heavily on the side of being more than a baseball coach, being a mentor, being a teacher of life lessons, etc. But we have to always realize that we are baseball coaches first. Most schools will provide reasonable parameters regarding grade requirements, attendance, behavior, etc., for a player to remain eligible. Additionally, I'm all for requiring community involvement, having high standards for playing the right way, demanding that we are good teammates, etc. It is fine to raise that bar if you think it is necessary. But when it comes to between the lines and in the dugout, we need to make baseball mostly about baseball.
It is also important, IMO, that at the HS age, kids start figuring out that they not only have to have the best work ethic but they have to have the best talent and ability to earn those starting spots. Another key aspect to running a successful baseball program that the boys will take pride in, year in and year out, is to be competitive. Regardless of W-L record, the boys will know you are not being truly competitive if you are playing guys based on grades and work ethic over talent. You gotta roll out your best 9. Otherwise, it's just another class. That is the last thing the student athlete is looking for when he signs up for a sport.
Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:Chicago643 posted:ironhorse posted:I see all points, but let's settle down on acting like keeping a senior who won't play much is akin to rampant entitlement. This is HIGH SCHOOL baseball and for a lot of my kids this is the pinnacle of their athletic career. This generally impacts only 2 or 3 kids every couple of years.
If the pinnacle of the kids athletic career is riding the pine, do him a favor and cut him loose.
It all depends on perspective.
Not sure of your "pinnacle" from most of your posts, but you come off as either a potential big league hall of famer, or a guy who never played but wants to sound like a big league hall of famer. Probably not in between. But pretty sure you've never coached teenage kids that you cared about.
So, were you a bench warmer in high school baseball or a regular player? If you were a bench warmer, did you enjoy the experience for the sake of being on a team, or were you dying inside to be out there. You can justify “the team experience” angle all you want, I talk to enough players, parents and coaches to know the “cumbaya” feeling you think these kids are getting by gracing them with the opportunity to sit on your bench is not as miraculous as you think it is.
I never insinuated I was anything, other than opinionated. As a parent, I can honestly say I would rather a coach cut my kid if they were just keeping them on to be humane instead of stringing then along in the name of giving them something to hang their hats on, my kid will move on just fine, thank you.
Are you a parent? Because parenting a teenage kid is a whole lot like coaching one, except you have to deal with the fallout of having to explain why a coach strung you along. Being honest with a kid and letting them have the opportunity to try something else is not a bad thing, Ironhorse. You aren’t every kid’s savior there hot shot, so you can save the attitude. Had about enough of that.
Literally the worst post I have ever seen on this site, and I've been on it since my son was in 9th grade and he just finished his 4th year of pro ball after playing 4 years of D1 ball in college.
I was a bench warmer in HS. I worked my butt off and was thrilled to make the team, proud to wear my HS team hat around town. I didn't even go out for the team til my senior year, we moved to a new town and the school was brand new, only 159 seniors in the school. I never got in a game, tore my cartilage rounding third in a scrimmage. I still showed up every practice, chased foul balls on crutches, did whatever I could. Some of my best HS memories were being on that team. Being a bench warmer never came into my mind, I was a member of the team and excited and proud to be so. I never felt then or today I was being "strung along".
As a parent I would never make a decision for my child about making the team. It sounds more like you are the type of parent that feels it's more important for your son to make it so you will feel good. I'd never say to my son "you're not going to be a starter, so you might as well quit. There's nothing "inhumane" about making a team and not starting. In my son's school only 22 out of 2000 students make the team, quite an accomplishment in itself.
And your last two sentences shows to me you don't have a clue.
hsbaseball101 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:hsbaseball101 posted:Steve A. posted:hsbaseball101 posted:My first season we had 24 kids and I always started the best nine. There wasn't a game where a single kid didn't play and rarely did any kid not get to hit. The kids who worked hard in practice but lacked talent were still very jealous of the ones who seemed to put in less work yet got to start. I had to see where we were at and how to approach everyone. I wasn't the best coach as it was my first time. My practices were boring and I didn't communicate with the kids that much, but I tried to make everyone happy. I set up a pizza party at the end of the season with some trophies for some, kept hidden for a speech. All went in, grabbed a pizza or two and left without even sitting down. I decided to dump all of the trophies in the trash. I demoted myself to an assistant last year but was asked to return as the HC this year. I decided to make this year school first. We have 20 D's and F's in grades of our squad of 15 this year. The kids with good grades will start and I hope to make very few subs. If they don't like it, they can demote themselves to JV.
Please do not take offense to my view on this as I assure you none is intended. I am not a HS coach, nor am I likely to ever be so let's start with that baseline.
Season #1: "Try to make everyone happy." Clearly a formula for disaster & never works, not just in baseball, but in virtually any scenario. You have recognized this & made an adjustment.
Season #2: "Grades First."??? Where are we going here? You are a baseball coach. If the kid is eligible to play, he should play, based upon his merit as a player, as determined by you with his performances at practices, workouts, attitude & game results. If kid X gets virtually all innings over kid Z (who is a better player), because kid X has a B+ in Algebra & the better player has a C etc. Are you kidding me? Is this the debate club or a freakin baseball team? You wanna talk about a disaster, go ahead & roll with that plan.....
It is well intended. I get it, but you are trying to apply formulas based upon the wrong metrics to determine who plays. The better player plays. Everyone can follow this one, whether they like it or not.
PS: Try to shed all thought of being liked by any of these parents. You are wasting your time here. Be firm, fair & decisive.
The NFHS that certifies HS coaches requests that we be more like mentors to students than simply athletic coaches.
Then be a mentor and understand that not all brains are created equal. Johnny might not study but gets 85-95% on his tests because he got what the teacher was saying. Timmy listens in class and studies for hours and gets a 74%.
I wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until college, it doesn't mean I wasn't trying in school. My coaches didn't penalize me. Kids have IEP's to assist them, you going to take those into account? How about the 30-40% of baseball players that take ADHD meds....just forget that they space out through no fault of their own?
Being a mentor doesn't mean you reward kids who have better developed brains, heck they probably need less building up than the kid who is honestly struggling to make it through high school. You want to get reports from teachers on who is trying and who is asleep in class, go for it, but please rethink your plan of best grades play. School is not cut and dry for MANY kids.
All situations are different. I have one kid who going by his grades is #2 on the list for subbing in, but he's actually my best player. However he's an EL student who's trying to take regular classes this year and it's starting to become difficult. I'm likely going to start him at the position he's got the best grades in, but it's not his first preferred position. The guys with the worst grades unfortunately are the hardest working in practice, but they're also the weakest in skill. I want to start them over others due to their work ethic, but I have to tell them to skip practice and go to after school tutoring instead.
Any chance of running a study hall after practice. Many times all a kid needs is a quite place and some discipline to get his work done.
Steve A. posted:Does the track team put the 4 fastest in the relay or does Jimmy get the anchor because he got an A in Chemistry?
Does the 6'8" kid who is a beast get minutes on the court or Billy (5'2") plays center because he has a 4.15 GPA?
Is Johnny the QB for the football team because he aced Spanish 4 or does Michael Vick play QB?
For some reason, baseball is different & part of the reason is because to the average person, without a ton of experience or knowledge, deciding who rates as a player above another is not as readily apparent. It is more difficult to justify decisions on playing time to Mom & Dad so therefore all kinds of absurdity takes the place of logic when determining playing time. Such as using grades to decide who gets innings.
Basketball is an interesting comparison. Everyone gets to play because they never have huge rosters. The worst players might get ¹-2 minutes total, but they seem to really appreciate being out there and have no inflated view of their ability when it's apparent to everyone. In fact, the fans will ask the coach to get those guys off the floor. Baseball is different for some reason.
cabbagedad posted:101 we have had some good exchanges. I say this to help, not to pile on. IMO, I think you are taking some of the NFHS stuff too literally. I, too, lean heavily on the side of being more than a baseball coach, being a mentor, being a teacher of life lessons, etc. But we have to always realize that we are baseball coaches first. Most schools will provide reasonable parameters regarding grade requirements, attendance, behavior, etc., for a player to remain eligible. Additionally, I'm all for requiring community involvement, having high standards for playing the right way, demanding that we are good teammates, etc. It is fine to raise that bar if you think it is necessary. But when it comes to between the lines and in the dugout, we need to make baseball mostly about baseball.
It is also important, IMO, that at the HS age, kids start figuring out that they not only have to have the best work ethic but they have to have the best talent and ability to earn those starting spots. Another key aspect to running a successful baseball program that the boys will take pride in, year in and year out, is to be competitive. Regardless of W-L record, the boys will know you are not being truly competitive if you are playing guys based on grades and work ethic over talent. You gotta roll out your best 9. Otherwise, it's just another class. That is the last thing the student athlete is looking for when he signs up for a sport.
What if you're getting run ruled every game even with the best 9? The guys on the bench wouldn't understand. They don't get that the kid who can't hit can at least make a throw from lf to 1b while you can't make a throw from 2b to 1b.
hsbaseball101 posted:cabbagedad posted:101 we have had some good exchanges. I say this to help, not to pile on. IMO, I think you are taking some of the NFHS stuff too literally. I, too, lean heavily on the side of being more than a baseball coach, being a mentor, being a teacher of life lessons, etc. But we have to always realize that we are baseball coaches first. Most schools will provide reasonable parameters regarding grade requirements, attendance, behavior, etc., for a player to remain eligible. Additionally, I'm all for requiring community involvement, having high standards for playing the right way, demanding that we are good teammates, etc. It is fine to raise that bar if you think it is necessary. But when it comes to between the lines and in the dugout, we need to make baseball mostly about baseball.
It is also important, IMO, that at the HS age, kids start figuring out that they not only have to have the best work ethic but they have to have the best talent and ability to earn those starting spots. Another key aspect to running a successful baseball program that the boys will take pride in, year in and year out, is to be competitive. Regardless of W-L record, the boys will know you are not being truly competitive if you are playing guys based on grades and work ethic over talent. You gotta roll out your best 9. Otherwise, it's just another class. That is the last thing the student athlete is looking for when he signs up for a sport.
What if you're getting run ruled every game even with the best 9? The guys on the bench wouldn't understand. They don't get that the kid who can't hit can at least make a throw from lf to 1b while you can't make a throw from 2b to 1b.
I'm a bit confused by your post... don't know why a guy would throw from LF to 1b and not sure who "you" is. But, in any case, if you are up by a lot or down by a lot, more players get to play. But you still start your best 9 and try to compete. The players usually have a pretty good idea who the best are.
Hsbaseball101,
I'm sure your intentions are good and you are trying to find a way to make this coaching thing work, but it sounds like you are burnt out or in way over your head. I don't think you are doing those kids any favors by staying on. Perhaps it's time to take a firmer stand and hand the program over to someone else.
Smitty28 posted:Hsbaseball101,
I'm sure your intentions are good and you are trying to find a way to make this coaching thing work, but it sounds like you are burnt out or in way over your head. I don't think you are doing those kids any favors by staying on. Perhaps it's time to take a firmer stand and hand the program over to someone else.
They asked many teachers to coach but none accepted. I didn't want to take too much time from family but they were going to cancel the season so I agreed to do it. Grades won't matter for the starting lineup anymore. I was initially shocked at the sheer number of F's but the student advisor told me that this is the case every start of the semester and by the time the end of the year comes these kids will be getting all of their assignments turned in.
I kept 18 players. If I had 22 solid players I would have kept 22. The ability to scrimmage and have multiple options is a good thing as far as I am concerned. Every player will have a critical role. From every day starters to Bull Pen catcher, to PH, DR, DH, utility players, developing a solid bull pen. The more young men that you can get the experience for the better as long as you understand how to manage it. Its amazing how much players improve when they are getting after it 5 to 6 days a week. Some people focus too much on the multiple innings played in actual games and not enough on the multiple hours spent getting better at the things that make you better. JMHO
Coach May as always you have a great perspective. HS practice is where most the players skill set is developed. I would add game experience has a lot of value as well. We all know a big piece of this game is between the ears. It's a rare bird that can come off the bench on occasion and play to his skill set. That is a big challenge I have seen in HS with large rosters. Getting the bench players enough live game reps to calm the voices in their head.
So, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the varsity at son’s high school is carrying 18 players with eight of those being seniors - four PO’s and four position players.
Two of the four position players are starters and all four seniors arms will get mound time, including our #’s 1 & 2 starters. Obviously, that leaves two senior utility players.
Well, last night we had two kids get injured and both senior utility players got four ab’s and combined to go 2-3 with a double and BB.
Oh, by the way it was against a team that rated as highly as #2 nationally in preseason polls.
It’s was really fun to see those guys contribute in such a big game.
I guess the moral of the story is to prepare like a starter because you never know when your number will be called.
18 seems to be perfect. Our school rosters from 7th grade on has been in the high 20's. Hard to find any "real" game time for the last 10 guys.
We played our 1st scrimmage games of the spring in a 3 team round robin on Sat. The 1st team we played had 27 and the 2nd 23. To me there is no right or wrong number, and it's on the HC to make the call since he's the one dealing with it.
Stats4Gnats posted:We played our 1st scrimmage games of the spring in a 3 team round robin on Sat. The 1st team we played had 27 and the 2nd 23. To me there is no right or wrong number, and it's on the HC to make the call since he's the one dealing with it.
Agreed!
A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. .............. Back in the day (of course saying that might automatically label me as old fashioned or old school?) Back then I could care less about angry parents. I worried about my players and what they did on the field. Of course this was back when the kids played the game the coaches coached and the parents were parents and not agents for their kids. Imagine how angry they would be if their kid got cut?........ With the thing with the parents that goes on today keeping too many players will only be a problem. If the kid can play keep him if he can not and others are better cut him. ( I guess that sounds cruel but this is high school) .. As a coach if you want to please the parents then when you are say 4 and 18 or something do not complain.
Will posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. .............. Back in the day (of course saying that might automatically label me as old fashioned or old school?) Back then I could care less about angry parents. I worried about my players and what they did on the field. Of course this was back when the kids played the game the coaches coached and the parents were parents and not agents for their kids. Imagine how angry they would be if their kid got cut?........ With the thing with the parents that goes on today keeping too many players will only be a problem. If the kid can play keep him if he can not and others are better cut him. ( I guess that sounds cruel but this is high school) .. As a coach if you want to please the parents then when you are say 4 and 18 or something do not complain.
Yes. Our HS Varsity routinely has 26-30 players trying out and the HC will keep 20-23. HC tries to have JV games to accomodate the 2nd stringers and develop pitching. The out of conference Saturday games are double headers where the second game is a JV game. Sounds ok, but truthfully there ends up only being 3-4 JV games because of make up games. Spring weather in the Midwest wreaks havoc on baseball.
There are a lot of kids standing around and parents don't even bother to come to games. Kind of brutal for them.
Will wrote "As a coach if you want to please the parents and your team goes 4 and 18 then don't complain"
And that is the problem. Too many parents would rather see their son on the field during his senior year and have the team lose every game.....as opposed to the best player being on the field (and their son on the bench - or not on the team at all) and the team winning. It is an issue of entitlement that parents are promoting and kids are adopting. It is wrong and it sets a kid up for failure later on.
Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah...........so if you are a senior you play because you are a senior even though the junior is better than the senior? So I guess making out the lineup card is fairly easy for the coach?
Will posted:It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah...........so if you are a senior you play because you are a senior even though the junior is better than the senior? So I guess making out the lineup card is fairly easy for the coach?
There will be other grades sprinkled in but it won't always be the best 9. You may save your mid 70's pitcher for a blow out closing role, you may keep varsity reserved for 11th and 12th only. There are many things a HS coach can do to give the seniors their last hoorah. Hopefully your seniors are your best players, if not you make a conscious effort to get them in when you can.
CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
That is juice box and participation trophy mentality- and it has permeated an entire generation of kids. As a result way too many don’t know how to compete. Later in life, when they have to compete, they fall flat on their face. Give a millennial his first job and see what happens.
CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
I guess often for some is seldom or never for others.
Obviously it's just anecdotal experience, but in my years of observing 2 kids play multiple HS sports, the only time I felt I saw any coach play favorites in the lineup was when a coach had a son on the team. Even then I think coaches always played who THEY THOUGHT were the best players available, regardless of class. Were they wrong sometimes? Sure, at least once or twice, in the case of the aforementioned sons. Maybe other times as well. Coaches are human. Okay and once or twice I saw borderline seniors get a start on Senior Day if the game wasn't crucial, or in basketball start and get subbed out quickly.
Yes, I saw seniors sit. I also saw seniors get cut and seniors quit. Yes, I also saw bitter parents. Watching your kid not play can be painful, and not everyone handles it well. I also saw parents who understood that their kids were not the best players available and/or understood that lineup decisions are up to the head coach.
We were fortunate enough to be involved mostly with winning teams. In my experience, parents with kids on winning teams don't grumble very much about playing time. I never, ever heard anyone say anything like, "put Johnny in so we can lose". Losing teams are a different matter. We did have a mom on a losing basketball team who would yell from the stands "Put Kevin in!" over and over. When a team is losing and Billy misses 5 shots in a row and gets scored on constantly, Kevin's parents are thinking, hey, our kid can do better than that.
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
That is juice box and participation trophy mentality- and it has permeated an entire generation of kids. As a result way too many don’t know how to compete. Later in life, when they have to compete, they fall flat on their face. Give a millennial his first job and see what happens.
11 seniors and 9 went on to play a sport in college. I think they are doing just fine. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the game, giving the seniors their shot when you can, and giving these teenagers lasting memories.
High School coaching is first and foremost about being a mentor. There is nothing mentor like in playing your best 9 always while the senior sits on the bench watching. You give them their shot when you can, you show them that good attitudes and hard work will be rewarded. THAT'S being a mentor.
What I have seen firsthand, in 2 different programs, is coaches cave in to political pressure from parents, booster club, and administrators to defer to seniors when they weren’t the best player. I think it is a big mistake and in the long run doesn’t do the kids any favors.
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
That is juice box and participation trophy mentality- and it has permeated an entire generation of kids. As a result way too many don’t know how to compete. Later in life, when they have to compete, they fall flat on their face. Give a millennial his first job and see what happens.
I deal with millennials every day. Most are good people. Not one of them has asked me for a juice box or a participation trophy.
I think you make sure Senior night is against a weak opponent and make sure they all play. Beyond that if they are equal...the senior. Otherwise, the best kids.
adbono posted:What I have seen firsthand, in 2 different programs, is coaches cave in to political pressure from parents, booster club, and administrators to defer to seniors when they weren’t the best player. I think it is a big mistake and in the long run doesn’t do the kids any favors.
As far as I have seen there is no political pressure from anyone, if there is the coach doesn't seem to care.
RF might be played by 3 seniors one night. Is that really so bad? You still have the two D1 11th grader commits in at MIF. No one makes the team that can't perform, is the senior the best RF, maybe not, but he can track and catch and get the ball in, so why not play him? There are preseason games that don't count, there is a senior night, there are good blow outs and bad blow outs, there are chances to play the seniors. If and when you get to the state championships you can be more discerning, until then why not play the seniors?
CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
Ah, so in your view high school baseball is a participation sport for all who want to play, not a competitive environment? Do you bring snacks and juice boxes to hand out?
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
That is juice box and participation trophy mentality- and it has permeated an entire generation of kids. As a result way too many don’t know how to compete. Later in life, when they have to compete, they fall flat on their face. Give a millennial his first job and see what happens.
It’s the parents more so than the kids. The kids are still malleable...it’s the parents that perpetuate the entitlement.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:What I have seen firsthand, in 2 different programs, is coaches cave in to political pressure from parents, booster club, and administrators to defer to seniors when they weren’t the best player. I think it is a big mistake and in the long run doesn’t do the kids any favors.
As far as I have seen there is no political pressure from anyone, if there is the coach doesn't seem to care.
RF might be played by 3 seniors one night. Is that really so bad? You still have the two D1 11th grader commits in at MIF. No one makes the team that can't perform, is the senior the best RF, maybe not, but he can track and catch and get the ball in, so why not play him? There are preseason games that don't count, there is a senior night, there are good blow outs and bad blow outs, there are chances to play the seniors. If and when you get to the state championships you can be more discerning, until then why not play the seniors?
You are completely missing the point. I’m not talking about playing seniors in meaningless situations or looking for an opportunity to get them a small role one way or another. Nobody has a problem with that. I’m talking about playing seniors (instead of more talented upperclassmen) the majority of the time ONLY because they are seniors. I’m talking about parents that are in favor of that. I’m talking about players that think they are entitled to to that. I’m talking about coaches that cave in to that. And I’m talking about how all of that is not in the best interest of the kid in the long run.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
That is juice box and participation trophy mentality- and it has permeated an entire generation of kids. As a result way too many don’t know how to compete. Later in life, when they have to compete, they fall flat on their face. Give a millennial his first job and see what happens.
11 seniors and 9 went on to play a sport in college. I think they are doing just fine. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the game, giving the seniors their shot when you can, and giving these teenagers lasting memories.
High School coaching is first and foremost about being a mentor. There is nothing mentor like in playing your best 9 always while the senior sits on the bench watching. You give them their shot when you can, you show them that good attitudes and hard work will be rewarded. THAT'S being a mentor.
You don’t think the non-seniors who are seeing playing time aren’t getting mentored. If your kid was a superior player on the roster and sitting behind an inferior senior, you would certainly feel otherwise. I think you are being disingenuous.
baseballhs posted:I think you make sure Senior night is against a weak opponent and make sure they all play. Beyond that if they are equal...the senior. Otherwise, the best kids.
If I have a senior and a kid younger who are of equal talent, that senior isn’t going to be playing over the others. I am playing the younger guy and developing him.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:What I have seen firsthand, in 2 different programs, is coaches cave in to political pressure from parents, booster club, and administrators to defer to seniors when they weren’t the best player. I think it is a big mistake and in the long run doesn’t do the kids any favors.
As far as I have seen there is no political pressure from anyone, if there is the coach doesn't seem to care.
RF might be played by 3 seniors one night. Is that really so bad? You still have the two D1 11th grader commits in at MIF. No one makes the team that can't perform, is the senior the best RF, maybe not, but he can track and catch and get the ball in, so why not play him? There are preseason games that don't count, there is a senior night, there are good blow outs and bad blow outs, there are chances to play the seniors. If and when you get to the state championships you can be more discerning, until then why not play the seniors?
Because You don’t won’t get to the state championships by playing inferior players all season long, then bring on the studs. I pray that you don’t coach a sports team beyond little league.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:What I have seen firsthand, in 2 different programs, is coaches cave in to political pressure from parents, booster club, and administrators to defer to seniors when they weren’t the best player. I think it is a big mistake and in the long run doesn’t do the kids any favors.
As far as I have seen there is no political pressure from anyone, if there is the coach doesn't seem to care.
RF might be played by 3 seniors one night. Is that really so bad? You still have the two D1 11th grader commits in at MIF. No one makes the team that can't perform, is the senior the best RF, maybe not, but he can track and catch and get the ball in, so why not play him? There are preseason games that don't count, there is a senior night, there are good blow outs and bad blow outs, there are chances to play the seniors. If and when you get to the state championships you can be more discerning, until then why not play the seniors?
In a perfect world, yes no one gets hurt. That said, what if you have a sophomore D1 caliber right fielder. He has schools that want to come watch him play but he is sitting on the bench. It is hard to explain to a college coach why you aren’t getting play time
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:What I have seen firsthand, in 2 different programs, is coaches cave in to political pressure from parents, booster club, and administrators to defer to seniors when they weren’t the best player. I think it is a big mistake and in the long run doesn’t do the kids any favors.
As far as I have seen there is no political pressure from anyone, if there is the coach doesn't seem to care.
RF might be played by 3 seniors one night. Is that really so bad? You still have the two D1 11th grader commits in at MIF. No one makes the team that can't perform, is the senior the best RF, maybe not, but he can track and catch and get the ball in, so why not play him? There are preseason games that don't count, there is a senior night, there are good blow outs and bad blow outs, there are chances to play the seniors. If and when you get to the state championships you can be more discerning, until then why not play the seniors?
You are completely missing the point. I’m not talking about playing seniors in meaningless situations or looking for an opportunity to get them a small role one way or another. Nobody has a problem with that. I’m talking about playing seniors (instead of more talented upperclassmen) the majority of the time ONLY because they are seniors. I’m talking about parents that are in favor of that. I’m talking about players that think they are entitled to to that. I’m talking about coaches that cave in to that. And I’m talking about how all of that is not in the best interest of the kid in the long run.
Or is it in the interest of a hs baseball program. A coach should have the outlook of program first, then team, then player. I have seen so many posts here lately about how selfless Johnny the Senior is when they graciously take a roster spot with knowledge they won’t play much...see how long that lasted? Now everyone is saying “but he’s a senior!”....get real, you either want to compete or not. If you have a truly competitive environment your program will improve, constantly.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
That is juice box and participation trophy mentality- and it has permeated an entire generation of kids. As a result way too many don’t know how to compete. Later in life, when they have to compete, they fall flat on their face. Give a millennial his first job and see what happens.
11 seniors and 9 went on to play a sport in college. I think they are doing just fine. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the game, giving the seniors their shot when you can, and giving these teenagers lasting memories.
High School coaching is first and foremost about being a mentor. There is nothing mentor like in playing your best 9 always while the senior sits on the bench watching. You give them their shot when you can, you show them that good attitudes and hard work will be rewarded. THAT'S being a mentor.
I think this is right. In competitive games/situations your best 9 are out there, otherwise you work kids in when you can.
As others have said, there is a lot of value in kids being on a team, whether they play a lot or not. Sports are a lot like life -facing adversity, forming and striving toward individual and team goals, etc. You do not need to be a star or even a starter to benefit greatly.
I would never advocate for inferior players playing over better players, but what is the harm in a kid being on the team if he is a good kid and readily accepts his role?
baseballhs posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:What I have seen firsthand, in 2 different programs, is coaches cave in to political pressure from parents, booster club, and administrators to defer to seniors when they weren’t the best player. I think it is a big mistake and in the long run doesn’t do the kids any favors.
As far as I have seen there is no political pressure from anyone, if there is the coach doesn't seem to care.
RF might be played by 3 seniors one night. Is that really so bad? You still have the two D1 11th grader commits in at MIF. No one makes the team that can't perform, is the senior the best RF, maybe not, but he can track and catch and get the ball in, so why not play him? There are preseason games that don't count, there is a senior night, there are good blow outs and bad blow outs, there are chances to play the seniors. If and when you get to the state championships you can be more discerning, until then why not play the seniors?
In a perfect world, yes no one gets hurt. That said, what if you have a sophomore D1 caliber right fielder. He has schools that want to come watch him play but he is sitting on the bench. It is hard to explain to a college coach why you aren’t getting play time
A lot of college coaches don’t hold the fact that a kid is sitting behind a senior against them. We’re not dumb, we know there are politics involved often. When you know a school is coming to see you, communicate that with your coach, he should make a point of getting you significant playing time to make the visit worthwhile.
LU 57 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
That is juice box and participation trophy mentality- and it has permeated an entire generation of kids. As a result way too many don’t know how to compete. Later in life, when they have to compete, they fall flat on their face. Give a millennial his first job and see what happens.
11 seniors and 9 went on to play a sport in college. I think they are doing just fine. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the game, giving the seniors their shot when you can, and giving these teenagers lasting memories.
High School coaching is first and foremost about being a mentor. There is nothing mentor like in playing your best 9 always while the senior sits on the bench watching. You give them their shot when you can, you show them that good attitudes and hard work will be rewarded. THAT'S being a mentor.
I think this is right. In competitive games/situations your best 9 are out there, otherwise you work kids in when you can.
As others have said, there is a lot of value in kids being on a team, whether they play a lot or not. Sports are a lot like life -facing adversity, forming and striving toward individual and team goals, etc. You do not need to be a star or even a starter to benefit greatly.
I would never advocate for inferior players playing over better players, but what is the harm in a kid being on the team if he is a good kid and readily accepts his role?
The problem is that the majority of kids (and their parents) can’t really embrace that role, IMO. At least not from what I have witnessed.
I think it is you guys that are missing the point of high school baseball.
You have to be qualified to make the team. Sophomores on varsity are rare. At my kids school if you are a 10th grader throwing 80 you don't even get a sniff at varsity. It's competitive and it's high school appropriate.
You people complain about the parents and yet you are trying to turn every high school player into a college stud. It's a GAME! What's the percentage of kids moving on and playing past high school, oh yeah, slim and none and you would rob a senior of some innings here and there in favor of the best 9? It's you guys that have a twisted view of what high school baseball should be.
adbono posted:LU 57 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:Here is a novel idea. You play the best kids. And why would a coach not do this? It defies any type of logic.
Because it's not Travel Ball and it's not College Ball. For many of these kids high school is it for baseball. They have no plans to take it further and they are there to have a brotherhood in high school and their picture in the yearbook. It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah. It's still a game at that point, not a career.
That is juice box and participation trophy mentality- and it has permeated an entire generation of kids. As a result way too many don’t know how to compete. Later in life, when they have to compete, they fall flat on their face. Give a millennial his first job and see what happens.
11 seniors and 9 went on to play a sport in college. I think they are doing just fine. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the game, giving the seniors their shot when you can, and giving these teenagers lasting memories.
High School coaching is first and foremost about being a mentor. There is nothing mentor like in playing your best 9 always while the senior sits on the bench watching. You give them their shot when you can, you show them that good attitudes and hard work will be rewarded. THAT'S being a mentor.
I think this is right. In competitive games/situations your best 9 are out there, otherwise you work kids in when you can.
As others have said, there is a lot of value in kids being on a team, whether they play a lot or not. Sports are a lot like life -facing adversity, forming and striving toward individual and team goals, etc. You do not need to be a star or even a starter to benefit greatly.
I would never advocate for inferior players playing over better players, but what is the harm in a kid being on the team if he is a good kid and readily accepts his role?
The problem is that the majority of kids (and their parents) can’t really embrace that role, IMO. At least not from what I have witnessed.
Hard for me to argue. I have seen it go both ways. We have been pretty fortunate I suppose since our son's coach does a really good job of spelling out kids' roles ahead of time.
As for knowing and accepting roles, I tell my boys there is a difference between knowing your role and accepting that role as permanent. In other words, you should not necessarily accept a backup role. You should continue to bust your butt in practice to beat out the guy(s) in front of you. You need to prepare yourself like a starter because, as one of my former coaches used to say, "you (backups) are only one play away" from being a starter.
The key though is attitude. Keep competing to win that job, at the same time be a team player and do what is asked within your stated role.
It takes a ton of maturity, and frankly I was not great with it even through college (different sport), but it is what I try to encourage in my kids.
CaCO3Girl posted:I think it is you guys that are missing the point of high school baseball.
You have to be qualified to make the team. Sophomores on varsity are rare. At my kids school if you are a 10th grader throwing 80 you don't even get a sniff at varsity. It's competitive and it's high school appropriate.
You people complain about the parents and yet you are trying to turn every high school player into a college stud. It's a GAME! What's the percentage of kids moving on and playing past high school, oh yeah, slim and none and you would rob a senior of some innings here and there in favor of the best 9? It's you guys that have a twisted view of what high school baseball should be.
Wait...I thought I pretty much agreed with you
CaCO3Girl posted:I think it is you guys that are missing the point of high school baseball.
You have to be qualified to make the team. Sophomores on varsity are rare. At my kids school if you are a 10th grader throwing 80 you don't even get a sniff at varsity. It's competitive and it's high school appropriate.
You people complain about the parents and yet you are trying to turn every high school player into a college stud. It's a GAME! What's the percentage of kids moving on and playing past high school, oh yeah, slim and none and you would rob a senior of some innings here and there in favor of the best 9? It's you guys that have a twisted view of what high school baseball should be.
Yeah, I'm well aware that there are other people besides you that view HS baseball (and other HS sports) as activities - just like going bowling or going to the movies. And to some extent that's fine. But you (and like-minded people) should not get the "HS baseball experience" you want at the expense of a more talented younger player that has aspirations beyond HS. Above all, what HS baseball players should be learning is how to compete. This is true regardless of level of ability. When the element of competition is removed from HS sports it diminishes the ability of the participants to learn life lessons as a result of the experience. There is nothing twisted about any of that.
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I think it is you guys that are missing the point of high school baseball.
You have to be qualified to make the team. Sophomores on varsity are rare. At my kids school if you are a 10th grader throwing 80 you don't even get a sniff at varsity. It's competitive and it's high school appropriate.
You people complain about the parents and yet you are trying to turn every high school player into a college stud. It's a GAME! What's the percentage of kids moving on and playing past high school, oh yeah, slim and none and you would rob a senior of some innings here and there in favor of the best 9? It's you guys that have a twisted view of what high school baseball should be.
Yeah, I'm well aware that there are other people besides you that view HS baseball (and other HS sports) as activities - just like going bowling or going to the movies. And to some extent that's fine. But you (and like-minded people) should not get the "HS baseball experience" you want at the expense of a more talented younger player that has aspirations beyond HS. Above all, what HS baseball players should be learning is how to compete. This is true regardless of level of ability. When the element of competition is removed from HS sports it diminishes the ability of the participants to learn life lessons as a result of the experience. There is nothing twisted about any of that.
That is what Travel Ball is for. You aren't removing competition either by playing seniors. Whether they get 1 inning or 30 depends on their work ethic and attitude.
My son, who is going to play baseball in college providing he stays healthy, is learning to wait his turn. JV season 9th grade he got 19 innings on the mound and 8 at bats....ALL season. Why? Because the varsity kids playing down and the sophomores had seniority. I personally liked that life lesson. There is a pecking order and you haven't made it yet kid.
Several kids and parents didn't handle that well. One quit mid season, a couple didn't come back this year. I see a whole new 9th grade class now mumbling while the sophomores are playing. The travel kids who play high level baseball are in shock that they aren't playing every inning...parents are grumbling about playing the best 9....I think this is a pretty big life lesson too. They can choose to have the chip on their shoulders that they are the best that ever played or they can work harder. I live less than 5 miles from East Cobb baseball, no shortage of talent in this area, lots of chips on their shoulders though.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I think it is you guys that are missing the point of high school baseball.
You have to be qualified to make the team. Sophomores on varsity are rare. At my kids school if you are a 10th grader throwing 80 you don't even get a sniff at varsity. It's competitive and it's high school appropriate.
You people complain about the parents and yet you are trying to turn every high school player into a college stud. It's a GAME! What's the percentage of kids moving on and playing past high school, oh yeah, slim and none and you would rob a senior of some innings here and there in favor of the best 9? It's you guys that have a twisted view of what high school baseball should be.
Yeah, I'm well aware that there are other people besides you that view HS baseball (and other HS sports) as activities - just like going bowling or going to the movies. And to some extent that's fine. But you (and like-minded people) should not get the "HS baseball experience" you want at the expense of a more talented younger player that has aspirations beyond HS. Above all, what HS baseball players should be learning is how to compete. This is true regardless of level of ability. When the element of competition is removed from HS sports it diminishes the ability of the participants to learn life lessons as a result of the experience. There is nothing twisted about any of that.
That is what Travel Ball is for. You aren't removing competition either by playing seniors. Whether they get 1 inning or 30 depends on their work ethic and attitude.
My son, who is going to play baseball in college providing he stays healthy, is learning to wait his turn. JV season 9th grade he got 19 innings on the mound and 8 at bats....ALL season. Why? Because the varsity kids playing down and the sophomores had seniority. I personally liked that life lesson. There is a pecking order and you haven't made it yet kid.
Several kids and parents didn't handle that well. One quit mid season, a couple didn't come back this year. I see a whole new 9th grade class now mumbling while the sophomores are playing. The travel kids who play high level baseball are in shock that they aren't playing every inning...parents are grumbling about playing the best 9....I think this is a pretty big life lesson too. They can choose to have the chip on their shoulders that they are the best that ever played or they can work harder. I live less than 5 miles from East Cobb baseball, no shortage of talent in this area, lots of chips on their shoulders though.
My son is a junior at a 6A school with several D1 commits. He made the varsity team and was told that he had the best tryout out of all the kids but that he will have to play behind the seniors. He accepted this role and hasn't complained about it. He's just happy to be on the team. I will go to the games, route for the team and wait for my son to play. Knowing him, he is going to work harder than anyone else and try to get more time on the field. If he's happy with this arrangement, who am I to complain? I'm glad he's a part of the organization and will get more reps at practice to make him a better player on his travel team. The last thing he needs is for me to complain.
There are valid points on all sides of this. The fact of the matter is that you are really at the mercy of how your school / coach sees the world. Do they weigh class heavily in determining innings? Is it more ability & talent? Is it a blend? Is it seniority first & then a younger kid can earn a spot ?
It's hard to say that any of these philosophies are incorrect. It is more a matter of coaching philosophy.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I think it is you guys that are missing the point of high school baseball.
You have to be qualified to make the team. Sophomores on varsity are rare. At my kids school if you are a 10th grader throwing 80 you don't even get a sniff at varsity. It's competitive and it's high school appropriate.
You people complain about the parents and yet you are trying to turn every high school player into a college stud. It's a GAME! What's the percentage of kids moving on and playing past high school, oh yeah, slim and none and you would rob a senior of some innings here and there in favor of the best 9? It's you guys that have a twisted view of what high school baseball should be.
Yeah, I'm well aware that there are other people besides you that view HS baseball (and other HS sports) as activities - just like going bowling or going to the movies. And to some extent that's fine. But you (and like-minded people) should not get the "HS baseball experience" you want at the expense of a more talented younger player that has aspirations beyond HS. Above all, what HS baseball players should be learning is how to compete. This is true regardless of level of ability. When the element of competition is removed from HS sports it diminishes the ability of the participants to learn life lessons as a result of the experience. There is nothing twisted about any of that.
That is what Travel Ball is for. You aren't removing competition either by playing seniors. Whether they get 1 inning or 30 depends on their work ethic and attitude.
My son, who is going to play baseball in college providing he stays healthy, is learning to wait his turn. JV season 9th grade he got 19 innings on the mound and 8 at bats....ALL season. Why? Because the varsity kids playing down and the sophomores had seniority. I personally liked that life lesson. There is a pecking order and you haven't made it yet kid.
Several kids and parents didn't handle that well. One quit mid season, a couple didn't come back this year. I see a whole new 9th grade class now mumbling while the sophomores are playing. The travel kids who play high level baseball are in shock that they aren't playing every inning...parents are grumbling about playing the best 9....I think this is a pretty big life lesson too. They can choose to have the chip on their shoulders that they are the best that ever played or they can work harder. I live less than 5 miles from East Cobb baseball, no shortage of talent in this area, lots of chips on their shoulders though.
Caco, the bolded is one aspect of your perspective that illustrates why I don't agree with you... If, as you say, seniors (soph's on JV) get priority, then working harder will not help because they are not a senior/soph yet.
Wrong message, wrong lesson but JMO.
The coach decision topic has been beat to death in past threads so I won't expand too much. Agree with Steve A that there are different philosophies and there isn't necessarily a hard and fast right and wrong. More important to me is how parents and players react and work with the philosophy in place.
CaCO3Girl posted:Will posted:It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah...........so if you are a senior you play because you are a senior even though the junior is better than the senior? So I guess making out the lineup card is fairly easy for the coach?
There will be other grades sprinkled in but it won't always be the best 9. You may save your mid 70's pitcher for a blow out closing role, you may keep varsity reserved for 11th and 12th only. There are many things a HS coach can do to give the seniors their last hoorah. Hopefully your seniors are your best players, if not you make a conscious effort to get them in when you can.
Our Varsity is for juniors and seniors, and the rare sophomore (s). In sons 2018 class there were three players who made Varsity as soph's ( it had been 4-5 years since the last soph made Varsity), and all three started from day 1, have played every game since, and they'll now share co-captain duties (first time for three co-captains). Hands down better than any Junior or Senior at 3B, SS, and 1B.
HC plays to win. A senior who isn't a starter, but is a worthy back up, will start in JV games or will start on senior day for the first inning or two. They are told this when HC picks his Varsity roster.
HC also makes it clear to all players that his intentions are to have the best roster to compete. He tells players and parents in the first meeting that he will answer all questions from any parent, to include questions about playing time. He stresses if you ask a question about playing time you may not like the answer he provides. He'll tell you what a player needs to do to see the field.
My son plays in the highest classification in Georgia. Our coach is expected to win so he tells parents and players that the best nine will play.
Last year, we lost in the semis with two seniors, two juniors, two sophomores and three freshmen in the starting lineup.
This year, we have two seniors, four juniors and three sophomores in the starting lineup.
He lets the Dugout Club handle all of the off the field duties. He doesn’t know or care who raised the most money, he wants to coach and develop players.
I’ve seen kids of parents who were heavily involved in volunteering get cut. None of that will determine playing time in his program.
The AD, who just happens to be a legitimate baseball guy, supports him completely and the kids absolutely love and respect him.
I guess it’s not the norm everywhere but we feel very fortunate that our son plays for him.
Gov wrote:
“HC also makes it clear to all players that his intentions are to have the best roster to compete. He tells players and parents in the first meeting that he will answer all questions from any parent, to include questions about playing time. He stresses if you ask a question about playing time you may not like the answer he provides. He'll tell you what a player needs to do to see the field.”
^Our Head Coach is exactly the same way.
CaCO3Girl posted:I think it is you guys that are missing the point of high school baseball.
You have to be qualified to make the team. Sophomores on varsity are rare. At my kids school if you are a 10th grader throwing 80 you don't even get a sniff at varsity. It's competitive and it's high school appropriate.
You people complain about the parents and yet you are trying to turn every high school player into a college stud. It's a GAME! What's the percentage of kids moving on and playing past high school, oh yeah, slim and none and you would rob a senior of some innings here and there in favor of the best 9? It's you guys that have a twisted view of what high school baseball should be.
Play the best 9 - always. It’s not LL...if you want that environment they have a division for HS kids.
hshuler posted:My son plays in the highest classification in Georgia. Our coach is expected to win so he tells parents and players that the best nine will play.
Last year, we lost in the semis with two seniors, two juniors, two sophomores and three freshmen in the starting lineup.
This year, we have two seniors, four juniors and three sophomores in the starting lineup.
He lets the Dugout Club handle all of the off the field duties. He doesn’t know or care who raised the most money, he wants to coach and develop players.
I’ve seen kids of parents who were heavily involved in volunteering get cut. None of that will determine playing time in his program.
The AD, who just happens to be a legitimate baseball guy, supports him completely and the kids absolutely love and respect him.
I guess it’s not the norm everywhere but we feel very fortunate that our son plays for him.
What you described is absolutely not the norm, and you should feel very fortunate indeed !
cabbagedad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I think it is you guys that are missing the point of high school baseball.
You have to be qualified to make the team. Sophomores on varsity are rare. At my kids school if you are a 10th grader throwing 80 you don't even get a sniff at varsity. It's competitive and it's high school appropriate.
You people complain about the parents and yet you are trying to turn every high school player into a college stud. It's a GAME! What's the percentage of kids moving on and playing past high school, oh yeah, slim and none and you would rob a senior of some innings here and there in favor of the best 9? It's you guys that have a twisted view of what high school baseball should be.
Yeah, I'm well aware that there are other people besides you that view HS baseball (and other HS sports) as activities - just like going bowling or going to the movies. And to some extent that's fine. But you (and like-minded people) should not get the "HS baseball experience" you want at the expense of a more talented younger player that has aspirations beyond HS. Above all, what HS baseball players should be learning is how to compete. This is true regardless of level of ability. When the element of competition is removed from HS sports it diminishes the ability of the participants to learn life lessons as a result of the experience. There is nothing twisted about any of that.
That is what Travel Ball is for. You aren't removing competition either by playing seniors. Whether they get 1 inning or 30 depends on their work ethic and attitude.
My son, who is going to play baseball in college providing he stays healthy, is learning to wait his turn. JV season 9th grade he got 19 innings on the mound and 8 at bats....ALL season. Why? Because the varsity kids playing down and the sophomores had seniority. I personally liked that life lesson. There is a pecking order and you haven't made it yet kid.
Several kids and parents didn't handle that well. One quit mid season, a couple didn't come back this year. I see a whole new 9th grade class now mumbling while the sophomores are playing. The travel kids who play high level baseball are in shock that they aren't playing every inning...parents are grumbling about playing the best 9....I think this is a pretty big life lesson too. They can choose to have the chip on their shoulders that they are the best that ever played or they can work harder. I live less than 5 miles from East Cobb baseball, no shortage of talent in this area, lots of chips on their shoulders though.
Caco, the bolded is one aspect of your perspective that illustrates why I don't agree with you... If, as you say, seniors (soph's on JV) get priority, then working harder will not help because they are not a senior/soph yet.
Wrong message, wrong lesson but JMO.
The coach decision topic has been beat to death in past threads so I won't expand too much. Agree with Steve A that there are different philosophies and there isn't necessarily a hard and fast right and wrong. More important to me is how parents and players react and work with the philosophy in place.
There is one sophomore on Varsity, he plays. The two MIF's are juniors and D1 commits, they play. On a squad of 22 players I would estimate that 5 positions rarely change players, they always have those same 5 players out there. The other positions are up for grabs and will typically go to seniors over juniors. The juniors will still get playing time but not as much as seniors. I still say it's not always the best 9, and it shouldn't be in high school. Travel ball and college are very different.
adbono posted:hshuler posted:My son plays in the highest classification in Georgia. Our coach is expected to win so he tells parents and players that the best nine will play.
Last year, we lost in the semis with two seniors, two juniors, two sophomores and three freshmen in the starting lineup.
This year, we have two seniors, four juniors and three sophomores in the starting lineup.
He lets the Dugout Club handle all of the off the field duties. He doesn’t know or care who raised the most money, he wants to coach and develop players.
I’ve seen kids of parents who were heavily involved in volunteering get cut. None of that will determine playing time in his program.
The AD, who just happens to be a legitimate baseball guy, supports him completely and the kids absolutely love and respect him.
I guess it’s not the norm everywhere but we feel very fortunate that our son plays for him.
What you described is absolutely not the norm, and you should feel very fortunate indeed !
Trust me - I do.
We have several friends around the country and their sons’ high school experiences cover just about anything that you can think of.
hshuler posted:My son plays in the highest classification in Georgia. Our coach is expected to win so he tells parents and players that the best nine will play.
Last year, we lost in the semis with two seniors, two juniors, two sophomores and three freshmen in the starting lineup.
This year, we have two seniors, four juniors and three sophomores in the starting lineup.
He lets the Dugout Club handle all of the off the field duties. He doesn’t know or care who raised the most money, he wants to coach and develop players.
I’ve seen kids of parents who were heavily involved in volunteering get cut. None of that will determine playing time in his program.
The AD, who just happens to be a legitimate baseball guy, supports him completely and the kids absolutely love and respect him.
I guess it’s not the norm everywhere but we feel very fortunate that our son plays for him.
For me, this is how to roll and I would agree. It would be difficult to criticize this framework. Even if you disagree & think otherwise, you would have to respect this approach.
I actually disagree with the best 9 approach for travel ball. In travel ball, you're paying, and plus at any given tournament the "best 9" might (1) already be committed, or (2) not have a coach there to see him at that game, whereas 10, 11, or 12 might have a coach there. Etc. A lot of different factors come into play.
In high school, OTOH, you are trying to win a league title and state title. It's a team sport in a way that a lot of travel ball is not. And it's not fair to the team, IMHO, to not play the best 9.
Caco3girl wrote : "I still say its not always the best 9. and it shouldn't be in high school."
Maybe you should try REC BASEBALL WEB
adbono posted:Caco3girl wrote : "I still say its not always the best 9. and it shouldn't be in high school."
Maybe you should try REC BASEBALL WEB
And that was helpful how?
2019Dad posted:I actually disagree with the best 9 approach for travel ball. In travel ball, you're paying, and plus at any given tournament the "best 9" might (1) already be committed, or (2) not have a coach there to see him at that game, whereas 10, 11, or 12 might have a coach there. Etc. A lot of different factors come into play.
In high school, OTOH, you are trying to win a league title and state title. It's a team sport in a way that a lot of travel ball is not. And it's not fair to the team, IMHO, to not play the best 9.
Yep, kind of by default, don't you think? You need a larger roster with arms, of which a lot of position players will pitch as well. With travel you can very easily have how many games in 4 days? 6-9 games depending on size of tourney. Half the team has to give an inning on the mound which offers up opportunities for the needed back up guys. Now it's the challenge of the coach to manage his roster.
I get it why some parents still get ticked, to pay that much for fees and travel, and son doesn't see more than a few innings in a four day tournament. Half the time the player knows his role and he's ok with it, he still wants to be on the team.
This also gets back to the importance of finding teams where your son will see the field (club-travel). Parents have to do due diligence prior to writing a check.
Will posted:It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah...........so if you are a senior you play because you are a senior even though the junior is better than the senior? So I guess making out the lineup card is fairly easy for the coach?
Last year our coach played seniors over other players who where better. Some of the these seniors hadn't been regular players in their entire career. Yet there they where game after game, error after error, and strike out after strike out, playing over better younger players. It's difficult to watch.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:Caco3girl wrote : "I still say its not always the best 9. and it shouldn't be in high school."
Maybe you should try REC BASEBALL WEB
And that was helpful how?
It was a suggestion as to where you might find an audience that would agree with your statement - since this audience clearly doesn't.
Golfman25 posted:Will posted:It's not always "the best kids play" in high school, often it's the seniors for their last hoorah...........so if you are a senior you play because you are a senior even though the junior is better than the senior? So I guess making out the lineup card is fairly easy for the coach?
Last year our coach played seniors over other players who where better. Some of the these seniors hadn't been regular players in their entire career. Yet there they where game after game, error after error, and strike out after strike out, playing over better younger players. It's difficult to watch.
I have seen a couple seasons of that too. It is very hard to watch - and I hate watching it.
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:Caco3girl wrote : "I still say its not always the best 9. and it shouldn't be in high school."
Maybe you should try REC BASEBALL WEB
And that was helpful how?
It was a suggestion as to where you might find an audience that would agree with your statement - since this audience clearly doesn't.
Not everyone disagrees with me, not everyone agrees with me, that's why it is a DISCUSSION board.
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:Caco3girl wrote : "I still say its not always the best 9. and it shouldn't be in high school."
Maybe you should try REC BASEBALL WEB
And that was helpful how?
It was a suggestion as to where you might find an audience that would agree with your statement - since this audience clearly doesn't.
I can see her point. There is a level of seniority and pecking order in everything. The old veteran always gets the benefit of the doubt even when he is past his prime.
To me it all comes down to the coach and communication. Players and parents can handle honesty. But once you lie, your doomed. For example, we had a previous coach keep everybody because he didn't want to let some seniors go -- wanted to give them that final experience on what would be a pretty good team. But he didn't have enough uniforms, so he gave them warm up tops. He explained their roles and let them know playing time was obviously real long shot. Then one day this sophomore kid shows up, all decked out in a varsity uniform. Rubbed some people the wrong way, because apparently there was an extra uniform lying around.
How about this one? Son's HS coaches say at the parent meeting: "The backup isn't necessarily on varsity." I have seen a starter get injured and the next game the replacement is the soph or freshman who was starting on JV, not the second-string junior or senior on varsity. Of course they also say in the parent meeting "if an older player and a younger player are equal in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the job."
2019Dad posted:How about this one? Son's HS coaches say at the parent meeting: "The backup isn't necessarily on varsity." I have seen a starter get injured and the next game the replacement is the soph or freshman who was starting on JV, not the second-string junior or senior on varsity. Of course they also say in the parent meeting "if an older player and a younger player are equal in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the job."
Yes, they all SAY that, but they don’t all DO that.
2019Dad posted:How about this one? Son's HS coaches say at the parent meeting: "The backup isn't necessarily on varsity." I have seen a starter get injured and the next game the replacement is the soph or freshman who was starting on JV, not the second-string junior or senior on varsity. Of course they also say in the parent meeting "if an older player and a younger player are equal in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the job."
The bolded statements are interesting. I agree with the first one in some respects. I can see carrying some Seniors that probably won't play much because they "paid their dues" even if they came up a little short. Being the #22 guy on the team is probably not going to diminish the on field talent level in any meaningful way. That said, a promising young SS isn't going to get a whole lot better sitting next to the #22 senior kid while the #1 SS plays every single game.
As for playing the younger player over the older player - when equal - would not always be my first choice. To begin with, I probably wouldn't want some freshman playing instead of a senior - the freshman probably plays JV to start the year and maybe gets pulled up if needed. Now, assuming Junior and Senior are competing, then I would either determine which one actually contributes more (figure out how to break the tie) or play the senior. A senior riding the bench because of some Junior has the same talent isn't really going to work extra hard. That Junior just might work harder and try to steal that spot. Tie goes to the upperclassman assuming all other things equal (which they never really are).
2017LHPscrewball posted:2019Dad posted:How about this one? Son's HS coaches say at the parent meeting: "The backup isn't necessarily on varsity." I have seen a starter get injured and the next game the replacement is the soph or freshman who was starting on JV, not the second-string junior or senior on varsity. Of course they also say in the parent meeting "if an older player and a younger player are equal in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the job."
The bolded statements are interesting. I agree with the first one in some respects. I can see carrying some Seniors that probably won't play much because they "paid their dues" even if they came up a little short. Being the #22 guy on the team is probably not going to diminish the on field talent level in any meaningful way. That said, a promising young SS isn't going to get a whole lot better sitting next to the #22 senior kid while the #1 SS plays every single game.
As for playing the younger player over the older player - when equal - would not always be my first choice. To begin with, I probably wouldn't want some freshman playing instead of a senior - the freshman probably plays JV to start the year and maybe gets pulled up if needed. Now, assuming Junior and Senior are competing, then I would either determine which one actually contributes more (figure out how to break the tie) or play the senior. A senior riding the bench because of some Junior has the same talent isn't really going to work extra hard. That Junior just might work harder and try to steal that spot. Tie goes to the upperclassman assuming all other things equal (which they never really are).
I don’t care if that senior doesn’t work hard in your example above. I want to be better year in and year out. You know who sees that senior riding the pine in favor of the junior? The freshmen and sophomores. Those are the guys you want to have hungry and working hard. If that senior wanted to work hard to ensure he got playing time, his senior season certainly isn’t the time to finally learn that lesson. As an 8th grader, you better know who is ahead of you on the freshman and JV teams and set your sights on beating them out the day you walk on campus. Always hungry, no excuses.
Tie goes to the younger player because he'll have more time in the program and thus more time to improve. That's the rationale my son's coaches provided. They also say "Program - Team - Player, in that order" -- and the tie going to the younger player is better for the program (since he has more time to improve and help future teams), and neutral to the team (since it's a tie currently).
2019Dad posted:Tie goes to the younger player because he'll have more time in the program and thus more time to improve. That's the rationale my son's coaches provided. They also say "Program - Team - Player, in that order" -- and the tie going to the younger player is better for the program (since he has more time to improve and help future teams), and neutral to the team (since it's a tie currently).
Never happening in our program, or any I’m familiar with. Similar skills/tools the Senior is Playing.
This is an outlier. IMO
Cubs vs Brewers on top 8, 1-2
Just out of curiosity, for the "seniors-paid-their-dues" camp, in your opinion would the same rationale apply to a college baseball team and, if not, why not?
In both cases, the majority of the team is not going to play baseball after the current level.* In both cases, the seniors have "paid their dues" and devoted years to the program. In both cases, there are summer baseball opportunities that could provide underclassmen other avenues for playing time.
*Yes, there are a few college programs where the majority of kids get drafted, but there are also some high schools where the majority of kids go on to play in college.
2019Dad posted:Just out of curiosity, for the "seniors-paid-their-dues" camp, in your opinion would the same rationale apply to a college baseball team and, if not, why not?
In both cases, the majority of the team is not going to play baseball after the current level.* In both cases, the seniors have "paid their dues" and devoted years to the program. In both cases, there are summer baseball opportunities that could provide underclassmen other avenues for playing time.
*Yes, there are a few college programs where the majority of kids get drafted, but there are also some high schools where the majority of kids go on to play in college.
Well said, agree with your points. It sounds like those in favor of seniority winning the job either have seniors who are in a position because of seniority system or they project their Underclass men to be beaten out by the kids behind them. And for the calcium carbonate girl, nobody, and I mean nobody, can guarantee their sophomore player will play in college...unless you are a college coach and plan on putting them on your roster. Having that expectation is dangerous and often leads to disappointment.
GaryMe posted:2019Dad posted:Just out of curiosity, for the "seniors-paid-their-dues" camp, in your opinion would the same rationale apply to a college baseball team and, if not, why not?
In both cases, the majority of the team is not going to play baseball after the current level.* In both cases, the seniors have "paid their dues" and devoted years to the program. In both cases, there are summer baseball opportunities that could provide underclassmen other avenues for playing time.
*Yes, there are a few college programs where the majority of kids get drafted, but there are also some high schools where the majority of kids go on to play in college.
Well said, agree with your points. It sounds like those in favor of seniority winning the job either have seniors who are in a position because of seniority system or they project their Underclass men to be beaten out by the kids behind them. And for the calcium carbonate girl, nobody, and I mean nobody, can guarantee their sophomore player will play in college...unless you are a college coach and plan on putting them on your roster. Having that expectation is dangerous and often leads to disappointment.
If he's healthy, which is the qualifier I used above, I see no reason why he wouldn't play in college.
As for the senior in college scenario, no, not the same. High School is something everyone has a shot at attending, not so much with college.! The HS coaches are paid to be a mentor and a leader, and hopefully win. College coaches are paid to win, PERIOD. If you get one that also wants to be a mentor then you have hit the lottery.
Look, here is the deal. There are competitive HS baseball programs and there are non-competitive programs. If your kid is districted for a HS that is a competitive program, you better make sure Johnny’s stuff is tight going in as a Frosh, or else he may be transferring to a less competitive HS for the chance to make that roster. I see kids every year who will transfer just because they aren’t good enough for school “A,” but they are a stud at school “B.” Know the environment. Don’t go in with an attitude of entitlement. If your kid wants to play at the college level or beyond, you better be training a competitor from age 10 on.
GaryMe posted:Look, here is the deal. There are competitive HS baseball programs and there are non-competitive programs. If your kid is districted for a HS that is a competitive program, you better make sure Johnny’s stuff is tight going in as a Frosh, or else he may be transferring to a less competitive HS for the chance to make that roster. I see kids every year who will transfer just because they aren’t good enough for school “A,” but they are a stud at school “B.” Know the environment. Don’t go in with an attitude of entitlement. If your kid wants to play at the college level or beyond, you better be training a competitor from age 10 on.
7A (largest division) school, No 9th grade team but made JV as a freshman, Varsity made it to the state championship game, over half of the seniors usually go on to play in college, a few have been drafted, he's been in Mid to high level travel ball in the Atlanta area since he was 9, and current travel coach is a JUCO head coach...so I'm going with check, check, check and check for the path to college...IF he remains healthy.
CaCO3Girl posted:GaryMe posted:Look, here is the deal. There are competitive HS baseball programs and there are non-competitive programs. If your kid is districted for a HS that is a competitive program, you better make sure Johnny’s stuff is tight going in as a Frosh, or else he may be transferring to a less competitive HS for the chance to make that roster. I see kids every year who will transfer just because they aren’t good enough for school “A,” but they are a stud at school “B.” Know the environment. Don’t go in with an attitude of entitlement. If your kid wants to play at the college level or beyond, you better be training a competitor from age 10 on.
7A (largest division) school, No 9th grade team but made JV as a freshman, Varsity made it to the state championship game, over half of the seniors usually go on to play in college, a few have been drafted, he's been in Mid to high level travel ball in the Atlanta area since he was 9, and current travel coach is a JUCO head coach...so I'm going with check, check, check and check for the path to college...IF he remains healthy.
Mmm hmmm....
What is the objective of the baseball program? To develop players for College or to "WIN" all the games. Both can be accomplished with a "fair" system of practice in game situations.
I previously suggest daily games [Varsity and JV] with Double DH, 6 outs per inning, coaches pitching. Keep records of each AB, each pitch, errors.
Use RBI's per time AB, BA, to determine your line up for next scheduled game.
Coach, you have no questions from parents. This is based on facts, not 6th sense. In addition you develop a team concept where anyone in a "hot" streak can make a start. You can team pitch. Your stronger pitcher finishes the game. use extra player/pitchers in the middle of the game. Watch a game there will be 3 times in 7 innings, when the game can be lost or won.
Be prepared to gain the edge with the right "call" to your defense or offense in the 3 situations.
Bob
Bob, I like your idea but in our HS system it wouldn't work well. Both V and JV have three games per week. Can't waste the pitchers.
Use the coaches to pitch or a athletic parent [he will need a screen]!!!! Do you have Womans baseball program in your area?
Bob
Consultant posted:Use the coaches to pitch or a athletic parent [he will need a screen]!!!! Do you have Womans baseball program in your area?
Bob
Coaches pitch about 60, lol, so not helpful. No girls baseball, only softball sadly.
Move to 40' use a screen. Track every pitch that is hit.
this is our weekly practice with the JC. Do you have a college in your area?
scriminage their extra players!
Bob
One more comment about senior playing ahead of junior. First off, I don't have that situation so it is not some personal philosophy hoping to keep my kid on the field. As for two players being equal, this almost never happens so the argument is somewhat hypothetical. Assuming that is the case, I would still play the senior as I believe this would be the most beneficial to the program. I understand the concept of allowing the junior additional development and contributing more next season, but I also see making the junior continue to work to gain a spot, whether permanent or part time. If you pass on the senior, my experience is that that senior is probably not going to be the best person to then push the junior to improve. I personally do not think you can easily strip out high school dynamics from most high school baseball programs. There may be some ultra-competitive schools where high school dynamics has zero impact on the program, but for 95% of high school programs, this is the case.
I have seen where there might be a freshman that should be on the varsity team, but in very few case is that freshman going to be able to deal with getting put into that situaion. Sure, if he is on the field and the ball gets hit to him, he will probably make the play. But, sitting in the dugout next to some guys 3-4 years older than him having their usual conversation (and all the other athletic and social interactions) is not something that will benefit the team in the long run.
I am trying to make the factual argument that playing the senior can be a better choice, not saying the senior plays based on seniority alone. If anyone disagrees, please feel free to comment (and give some insight into how this impacts the team when the senior - who in this argument is just as good 100% across the board - gets dumped in favor of the younger player). If anyone feels like throwing out the participation trophy argument again, please save the effort for a more appropriate time.
I can see both sides from a purely competitive standpoint, but simply see more benefit in going with the senior.
Gov posted:2019Dad posted:Tie goes to the younger player because he'll have more time in the program and thus more time to improve. That's the rationale my son's coaches provided. They also say "Program - Team - Player, in that order" -- and the tie going to the younger player is better for the program (since he has more time to improve and help future teams), and neutral to the team (since it's a tie currently).
Never happening in our program, or any I’m familiar with. Similar skills/tools the Senior is Playing.
This is an outlier. IMO
Cubs vs Brewers on top 8, 1-2
I think that is the case because there is no such thing as a tie. If anything, the Senior has 1 more year on the earth than the younger player. 1 more year of experience and maturity. That should count for something.
Golfman25 posted:Gov posted:2019Dad posted:Tie goes to the younger player because he'll have more time in the program and thus more time to improve. That's the rationale my son's coaches provided. They also say "Program - Team - Player, in that order" -- and the tie going to the younger player is better for the program (since he has more time to improve and help future teams), and neutral to the team (since it's a tie currently).
Never happening in our program, or any I’m familiar with. Similar skills/tools the Senior is Playing.
This is an outlier. IMO
Cubs vs Brewers on top 8, 1-2
I think that is the case because there is no such thing as a tie. If anything, the Senior has 1 more year on the earth than the younger player. 1 more year of experience and maturity. That should count for something.
If it’s a close race, I think the coach should attempt to give equal reps and hopefully, someone will “earn” the job.
At any rate, I would think a senior would get first consideration. If he doesn't pan out or the underclassman proves to be better, then the younger player should get a shot. At least, that's the way it worked back when I played HS football 38 years ago.
hshuler posted:Golfman25 posted:Gov posted:2019Dad posted:Tie goes to the younger player because he'll have more time in the program and thus more time to improve. That's the rationale my son's coaches provided. They also say "Program - Team - Player, in that order" -- and the tie going to the younger player is better for the program (since he has more time to improve and help future teams), and neutral to the team (since it's a tie currently).
Never happening in our program, or any I’m familiar with. Similar skills/tools the Senior is Playing.
This is an outlier. IMO
Cubs vs Brewers on top 8, 1-2
I think that is the case because there is no such thing as a tie. If anything, the Senior has 1 more year on the earth than the younger player. 1 more year of experience and maturity. That should count for something.
If it’s a close race, I think the coach should attempt to give equal reps and hopefully, someone will “earn” the job.
Now there's a position that is hard to argue. The seniority vs develop for the future of the program both have merit but you really need to dig deeper. At the end of the day, one will win out and help the team more.
I have a senior who is solid as a rock with practice reps and a very upstanding citizen. Every year, we see him and think he finally has it together and is ready to hold that starting role and contribute (based on spring practice performance). Then we start playing games. The wheels fall off mentally for him. Freshman and sophomore kids eat his lunch with their game performances.
Each situation is different. If there is a tie, dig deeper until the tie is broken. It may change next week but that's next week. For some, yes, that senior experience will show in game situations. For some, the younger guys have actually played more highly competitive ball or have slight mechanical advantages that will show against better competition. The points of separation can manifest themselves in a thousand different ways. A parent will, by nature, have their lens adjusted to those points that their own kid excels at. A coach has to try to look at all and make the call for that day, even if the assessment comparison score is 501-499.
Cabbage Dad:
when we travel to Australia with our American Goodwill team. The players meet for one practice and the player's ability needs a quick evaluation. If a player has average talent, we start this player every game for one at bat. This allows the players to gain confidence and contribute.
It is the 5th to the 7th inning that determines the outcome. With pitchers we have pitch the 1st and 2nd innings.
Bob
cabbagedad posted:hshuler posted:Golfman25 posted:Gov posted:2019Dad posted:Tie goes to the younger player because he'll have more time in the program and thus more time to improve. That's the rationale my son's coaches provided. They also say "Program - Team - Player, in that order" -- and the tie going to the younger player is better for the program (since he has more time to improve and help future teams), and neutral to the team (since it's a tie currently).
Never happening in our program, or any I’m familiar with. Similar skills/tools the Senior is Playing.
This is an outlier. IMO
Cubs vs Brewers on top 8, 1-2
I think that is the case because there is no such thing as a tie. If anything, the Senior has 1 more year on the earth than the younger player. 1 more year of experience and maturity. That should count for something.
If it’s a close race, I think the coach should attempt to give equal reps and hopefully, someone will “earn” the job.
Now there's a position that is hard to argue. The seniority vs develop for the future of the program both have merit but you really need to dig deeper. At the end of the day, one will win out and help the team more.
I have a senior who is solid as a rock with practice reps and a very upstanding citizen. Every year, we see him and think he finally has it together and is ready to hold that starting role and contribute (based on spring practice performance). Then we start playing games. The wheels fall off mentally for him. Freshman and sophomore kids eat his lunch with their game performances.
Each situation is different. If there is a tie, dig deeper until the tie is broken. It may change next week but that's next week. For some, yes, that senior experience will show in game situations. For some, the younger guys have actually played more highly competitive ball or have slight mechanical advantages that will show against better competition. The points of separation can manifest themselves in a thousand different ways. A parent will, by nature, have their lens adjusted to those points that their own kid excels at. A coach has to try to look at all and make the call for that day, even if the assessment comparison score is 501-499.
“Then we start playing games. The wheels fall off mentally for him.”
Cabbage - I have seen this in all sports over the years. Some kids can never seem to relax enough to get it done in games.
Then, you have some kids who aren’t practice players but are gamers.
I guess that’s why coaches get paid the big bucks. :-)
Why not just simply play the player who gives your team the best opportunity to win? Of course you hope it's the kid who has been with you the longest. You hope it's the kid that works the hardest. You hope its the kid that has invested the most.
I just can't remember a time when 2 guys were equal. Yes sometimes there isn't much of a difference. But there is always something that will separate them. Sometimes one will have the upper hand and then the other will grab it. Sometimes it kind of goes back and forth. But in your heart just play the player you believe honestly gives you the best opportunity to win that day.
If you do anything other than that you are not doing your job imo.
Coach_May posted:Why not just simply play the player who gives your team the best opportunity to win? Of course you hope it's the kid who has been with you the longest. You hope it's the kid that works the hardest. You hope its the kid that has invested the most.
I just can't remember a time when 2 guys were equal. Yes sometimes there isn't much of a difference. But there is always something that will separate them. Sometimes one will have the upper hand and then the other will grab it. Sometimes it kind of goes back and forth. But in your heart just play the player you believe honestly gives you the best opportunity to win that day.
If you do anything other than that you are not doing your job imo.
“If you do anything other than that you are not doing your job imo”
Finally, the nail has been hit squarely on the head!
Any more than 14 and you are pandering to parents. If you have PO's carry no more than 3 then the rest are position players. You need
4 Outfielders(2 CF min) - 4 Infielders(2 SS min) - 3 Catchers who can play 1B/3B
If you play 30 Games in a season - You need to cover 200 IP and you probably only have 900 PA's
Your 3 best pitchers get 140 Innings So you have 60 left (3 Guys). Your top 7 Hitter get 700 PA's you only have 200 left (5 Guys) - Guaranteed 3 of your top 6 pitchers are everyday players.
High school Baseball is 4 Weeks Pre-Season 7-8 Weeks Regular season. 75% of teams are out after the second tournament game. Asking a kid to give up 200+ hours and then not giving them innings or PA's is really a waste of time. Summer ball is different you play 11+ Weekends and you can play 6-8 Games per week. you need extra bodies especially Catchers and Pitchers. So a quality PO in summer is Gold.