Velocity

It depends on if you're talking about a general population or elite level players.  I don't think anyone has stats on the general population.  It would vary pretty widely anyway.   As far as more elite players the guy has done some research I guess.  http://www.yougoprobaseball.co...should-i-be-pitching

I can't even believe that I am going to respond to this, but here I am. Why  on earth and everything under the sun would anyone be interested or concerned about the velocity of a 9/10yr old pitcher?? What possibly could the velocity of that age matter or that anyone could even notice? I swear I think some parents have TOTALLY lost it sometimes when it comes to their kids especially when it comes to their athletic abilities. Be more concerned about how much fun he's having with his friends or pet dog. And as far as "elite level" 9/10yr old ball players? I couldn't think of a better oxymoron than that. lol

Okay, I feel better now.

YGD

Eric Cressey tweet from 2013:  "Putting a radar gun on a 14-year-old pitcher is the very definition of studying for the wrong test"

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

Honestly, there is no way to tell and I wouldn't concern myself with it.  The hardest throwers, biggest hitters, etc. at younger ages can almost always be attributed to physical maturity. I have seen a big stong kid (5'10") throw 70 mph at 11 years-old and still be 5'10" at age 13 and throw 72 mph.  My point is that things don't even out until around 16 years-old so just focus and solid fundamentals and make sure that your kid has fun playing in a positive and healthy environment. 

The best velocity measurements for 9/10 year olds is how fast you let them take time off in the off-season to do anything besides baseball.

This is the HIGH SCHOOL BB Web people.  All of this stuff about 9/10's and "elite" 13/14 travel teams belongs on the Baseball Fever board.

Can we stop with the snotty responses?  The guy just asked a question.  We need to stop reading into people's motives and directing their lives.  

Teaching Elder posted:

Can we stop with the snotty responses?  The guy just asked a question.  We need to stop reading into people's motives and directing their lives.  

@Teaching - Agreed! 

Well lets see, just a question, some of you a little too fired up. There is not one of you who was not curious enough to ask when your 9 year old first started playing competitive ball. So lets just chill out, a simple question as to whether 30 mph is average or 80, or likely in between.

And regardless of what is posted above there is likely some correlation between early velocity and later velocity. No doubt,  not an exact science, but certainly an indication of things to come.

And if you ask why would a person want to know... Well that question could be asked up and down these forums.

MTH posted:

This is the HIGH SCHOOL BB Web people.  All of this stuff about 9/10's and "elite" 13/14 travel teams belongs on the Baseball Fever board.

I guess I have to come back next year!  I think what belongs on here is whatever people want to have fun talking about.  Including 9/10 year old velocity.  Feel free to think its not wise to worry about but if some people want to talk about it what's wrong with that?  To the OP 50mph at 9 is pretty fast.  There we answered his question without insulting him!  That wasn't so hard was it?  Now we can feel free to give him additional advice at which point he can heed it or reject it.  Its a free country.  Just a side note, the kids my son has played with at 9 and 10 who threw hard are the same kids throwing hard at 14!  Now we will see what happens over the next few years.   The high school years!  I will then be able to talk about it on this site legally!

hshuler posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

Can we stop with the snotty responses?  The guy just asked a question.  We need to stop reading into people's motives and directing their lives.  

@Teaching - Agreed! 

Just saw these two responses after making my post...  good for both of you!  Agree or disagree we should be welcoming to new posters.  And every human being deserves some simple kindness.  

I have seen no indication that velo of sub-teens correlates with later velo (e.g., HS velo).

What I did notice is that the "higher velo" sub- teen pitchers got well used - really really well used.

Looking back, my S did begin pitching as a nine year old. He was able to get the ball to the catcher on a fairly regular basis - with a noticeable arc. He did get low keyed lessons from guys who just taught him reasonable form and no breaking pitches. 

 I freely (though sheepishly admit) that I was the dad who bought the cheap radar gun when he was 10. While I now understand how ridiculous it looked - for the first kid going through the baseball process, there was no road map and it can get pretty intense.

Measuring velo doesn't get you anywhere; building enthusiasm, playing catch, hitting grounders and fly balls to your son, and decent low keyed lessons bring big dividends and create wonderful parent/son bonding experiences.

Welcome to the site! We can all be gruff looking backwards in time; but enjoy that first journey; perhaps it's a first step to a decades long family activity!

Brensdad!  Strikes at just about any velocity are great pitches at 9/10.  Play keeps moving, fun for the kids, fun for the parents.  Certainly more skill development when the ball is moving around and in-play.  In most games, the team with the least walks plus the least errors will almost always win the game.

Do heed the multiple posts about not pitching any one kid very much.  Read up and follow ASMI guidelines for pitch counts.  Educate the other parents if you can.   http://www.asmi.org/research.p...on=positionStatement  I am sure there are many parents on this board who would do things differently if they could go back in time.

If you stick around, you will hear this a lot.....Enjoy the Ride!

Some of the kids who threw hard at 9/10 are absolutely still some of the hardest throwers at 14, which is my son's age. As a mentioned in my previous post, some haven't gained much velocity since. Now, that doesn't mean that they won't make a big jump in velocity over the next couple of years. 

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time. A local kid (10th grader) picked up 5-6 mph between last spring and fall and received a D-1 offer. Conversely, a kid who set the velocity record at a 13U PG event at 84mph topped out at 85 three years later. 

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

GOOSEGG - it takes a big person to admit when they were wrong.  By the way, what was his max velocity that first year?

Probably best, when dealing with brand new posters, to draw them in with a little bit of kindness.  Once you get them hooked, then you can begin to explain why your opinion is the right opinion.  As to the comment about the better 10yo pitchers getting used too much - have to agree with that one.  Not sure who it was on this board, but they swear they never let their 10yo set foot on the mound because they knew he would be the best pitcher - but realized it would not be in the 10yo's best interest.

hshuler posted:

Some of the kids who threw hard at 9/10 are absolutely still some of the hardest throwers at 14, which is my son's age. As a mentioned in my previous post, some haven't gained much velocity since. Now, that doesn't mean that they won't make a big jump in velocity over the next couple of years. 

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time. A local kid (10th grader) picked up 5-6 mph between last spring and fall and received a D-1 offer. Conversely, a kid who set the velocity record at a 13U PG event at 84mph topped out at 85 three years later. 

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

 

If you can tell me my son will be at 85 at 16 I will take it right now!

hshuler posted:

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time.

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

 

Add drive, determination and hard work to your variables. Son got tired of hearing about his lack of arm strength. His MPH from SS position improved 16 mph from freshman to junior years of HS.

2020dad posted:

hshuler posted:

Some of the kids who threw hard at 9/10 are absolutely still some of the hardest throwers at 14, which is my son's age. As a mentioned in my previous post, some haven't gained much velocity since. Now, that doesn't mean that they won't make a big jump in velocity over the next couple of years. 

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time. A local kid (10th grader) picked up 5-6 mph between last spring and fall and received a D-1 offer. Conversely, a kid who set the velocity record at a 13U PG event at 84mph topped out at 85 three years later. 

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

 

If you can tell me my son will be at 85 at 16 I will take it right now!

@2020 - Saw a 2020 kid with my own eyes hit 90 last July. Now, obviously this is the exception but super arm talent. 

Ripken Fan posted:

hshuler posted:

There are also some kids with average arm strength who have gained tremendous velocity in a short period of time.

The are just so many variables  (genetics, early vs. late puberty, proper strength and conditioning, mechanics, etc.) that determine development and make it impossible to identify a foolproof method for gauging future arm strength. 

 

Add drive, determination and hard work to your variables. Son got tired of hearing about his lack of arm strength. His MPH from SS position improved 16 mph from freshman to junior years of HS.

Good for him! 

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

I can't swear by this...this is ONE man's opinion:

http://www.yougoprobaseball.co...should-i-be-pitching

2017LHP.

FWIW (and it was worth a lot then - especially to the parents [including me]) the range was 45 - 60ish in rec ball. Mine was the 45. Could go a bit more in local travel games.

There will be lots of "natural" attrition amongst the players as some lose interest and pick up other sports. Moving to a full field seems to bring about the largest drop. But, there were lots of baseball related arm injuries for those that simply over threw their arms - again looking backwards it's easy to see the reasons (poor mechanics, over use, young elastic arms not able to withstand the load).

It is so easy - and understandable - to get swept up into the maelstrom of youth baseball. And, there is no right formula - every kid is different in what it takes to kindle their fire. I did most of it wrong; some of it right; with a heavy helping of luck. While I cringe at some of the things I did, I wouldn't have replaced any part of the experience. And while I obviously embarrassed my son with some of my antics, I was no worse then the rest of the crazed parents, and now that I am too old to play catch with him any longer, I cherish every moment of every step in his/my/our family journey. For us, baseball - whether it was playing catch everywhere we traveled, learning math by calculating averages, going to MILB and college games, whatever - was the lifelong thread woven into our family tapestry.

Do we have a FAQ board.  This might be a good question to put on one.  PM me your best general answer for "What Should My Kid Be Throwing at Age XX?"  I'll compile a best answer and see it the lady who runs this site will consider doing a FAQ.

Teaching Elder posted:

Do we have a FAQ board.  This might be a good question to put on one.  PM me your best general answer for "What Should My Kid Be Throwing at Age XX?"  I'll compile a best answer and see it the lady who runs this site will consider doing a FAQ.

While I do know that this question gets asked a lot I would be against it being listed as a FAQ question.  Anyone who asks the question needs to have the heaping dose of reality along with legitimate guesses on the answers. 

It's amusing to sit at a 9u game and go "Wow, he pitches fast", it's not amusing to hear a 9u dad say "I read you are supposed to be pitching XX by now so you need to increase your strength training."

Who said it wouldn't touch on matters of reality and safety?  

BTW. I'll run the answer by the board for advice and consent first.

Teaching Elder posted:

Who said it wouldn't touch on matters of reality and safety?  

 

BTW. I'll run the answer by the board for advice and consent first.

I don't believe people read the fine print. I also don't think 9u questions should be in a FAQ section of a High School Baseball site. And last, but not least, I think if we were to post such a FAQ section people would think it is categorically okay to radar 9u kids...which it really isn't. I don't see how any good can come from that.  People can make an argument about gauging if the kid got better and faster but the biggest problem at 9u isn't speed it's simply getting it in the strike zone more than 50% of the time. By the way, I still wouldn't know what my 14u son threw if he hadn't been in a PG event last year where they radared him.

"What Should My Kid Be Throwing at Age XX?"

This question would need to be put into context - should be throwing xx by age yy in oder to achieve zzzzzzzzz - what exactly is the person hoping to achieve - high school varsity (would depend on which state), college ball, D1 ball, SEC/ACC ball, MiLB ball, MLB ball, HOF ball?  I really truly think the minimums for ages up through 14 would need to be artificially low.  Would also need to include a modifier for physical maturation (maybe something about his facial hair - does he shave twice a day or twice a year) - makes a huge difference.  I really think this is an impossible task and the true minimums for most ages would be so low as to be meaningless.

For a 14yo, I would want to know does he have good mechanics and can he throw inside consistently.  At 16yo, much of the same, needs decent velocity, but also want to know how he gets outs - I will again give a shout out to Trackman as I really think it will help at younger ages identify pitchers who are able to get easy outs with balls in play - how many truly weak grounders does he force.  Throw in a few strikeouts along with a decent sample size abd you start to get a feel for effectiveness outside of pure velocity.

I'm noting your concerns about radar readings for young people in the statement.

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

if you want his arm to last a long time, get him off the mound!!! the coach will blow his arm out .. just my 1.5 cents

I know my 10U son throws harder than anyone on his team. Probably harder than all but 1 or 2 kids in the entire league.

Now if he could just manage to throw the ball in the strike zone he would be ready to drop out, get his GED , and do a couple years at a JC so he will be ready for the draft by the time he is 13 or so.  He's tired of playing with these less talented players, so it's time for him to move on to a team where everyone works at hard at his craft as he does.

I know it seems a bit much but this kid sleeps, eats, and dreams of nothing other than making the MLB.  He's a truly dedicated, elite level player. 

Rob T, my kid is the EXACT SAME WAY!  If any scouts or recruiters want in early, here is some video of him bringing it!  If it wasn't for "rules" he would be varsity right now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI004CYz_lM

We have been down this road so many times before...  I still don't and never will understand how people can be so judgemental based soley on opinions and anecdotal evidence.  Do any of you have hard evidence that gunning a 9 year old brings about Armageddon?  and why do you care so much what other people do?

I guess it's a fair question but i really don't know why it matters? Your kid could be out of the game next year or more likely,  when the dimensions change to regulation.....enjoy it while you can and slow down. 

Teaching Elder posted:

Can we stop with the snotty responses?  The guy just asked a question.  We need to stop reading into people's motives and directing their lives.  

TeachingElder, thanks for posting your comment.  I credit the parent of a younger kid to come on our site; available information to help guide them from youth travel clubs to prepare for competitive HS baseball, and when to initiate the recruiting process.  

I initially came on this site as an observer, about 8 years ago, when my oldest was 10.  I was quickly able to gain perspective about competitive travel baseball and how to help my sons further their interests in competitive baseball.  The HSBaseballWeb board helped me be an asset to my boys baseball, and this site definitely helped keep me in check.  

The posters question is similar to my brothers concern just last week. My brother & his 8yr old are surrounded by a few gung-ho parent coach's talking pitching velocity, and using it as a method of cutoffs for making team rosters at the 8-9 year old level.  What a joke.  If a kid is that much bigger and skillful than the others, you let him play up where he's capable. Keep it simple.

I told my brother to find baseball organizations that focus on age appropriate development, and age appropriate coaches.  Keep it fun, play multiple sports, and keep going on family vacations.

(trying to write this while on a conference call won't happen again).... apologies if any disjointedness (word?)

Enjoy your Friday & good luck to all the college first season games!

2020dad posted:

 Do any of you have hard evidence that gunning a 9 year old brings about Armageddon?  and why do you care so much what other people do?

I don't know why you need to bring meteors and Bruce Willis into the conversation.

2020dad posted:

We have been down this road so many times before...  I still don't and never will understand how people can be so judgemental based soley on opinions and anecdotal evidence.  Do any of you have hard evidence that gunning a 9 year old brings about Armageddon?  and why do you care so much what other people do?

@2020 - I've found over the last several years that what SOME people say on a public forum and what actually happens are sometimes polar opposites. 

Brensdad;

do you have the phone # for your local Sports Psychologist and Dr. Andrews.

Please throw away the radar gun!!

ENJOY & STUDY THE GAME.

Bob

How hard should a 9 y/o be throwing?  As hard as he (or she) can, and still throw strikes without getting hurt.  Throwing hard at that age is not about hitting a number on a radar gun, but about developing the intent to throw hard, which will be important later.  The actual velocity is immaterial - by the time a 9 y/o is 17, eight years will have passed.  Publishing a chart showing how hard pre and early teens "should" be throwing will only cause some parents to panic needlessly.  As many other posters have emphasized, so much will change during those crucial developmental years.  When he turned 15, my son was topping out at 78.  Two years later he is 90+ and headed to a Power 5.  No clue where he was at 9 back in our neighborhood little league.

It is totally understandable that you want to see if your kid is average or above average but as my 2016 RHP starts his senior season, I can only say that there are so many unknowns and even more variables that you can't even think about right now that there just isn't a good answer on these types of questions. My son didn't throw hard at all until HS but he worked his butt off and did more than any other kid I know to get better and put himself in a position to be successful. He's now throwing in the upper 80's, (hopefully hits 90 this spring/summer) and will be playing D1 ball...I bring this up not to take a victory lap but to just tell parents of younger kids to just let them play and see if they bring their own passion to the game. Year after year, kids will quit playing for a variety of reasons and those that are the most dedicated (and talented) will not be dissuaded by their lack of velocity, size, weight, etc. They will outwork their competition and hopefully they stay healthy and are able to play at the next level if that is what they want to do.

Just enjoy the ride. There are not absolutes on velo at that age...And anyone who tells you that there are is just speculating...

It's too hard to label how hard a particular pitcher should throw at nine or ten. Prepubescent kids may be physically plus or minus three years of their chronological age. In the big picture, in our travel games the bigger, stronger kids threw in the 50s. 

Those bigger stronger kids fell into three categories: 1) They remained bigger, stronger kids as they reached puberty, 2) They toasted their arms before age thirteen from pitching too frequently, and 3) They drifted from the game as they weren't the bigger, stronger kids post puberty.

At nine and ten the focus should be on proper mechanics. No one is going to remember who the preteen flame throwing stars were. There should also be a focus on not pitching too much. 

Let me tell you a story... My son as a 9/10 u could not see the mound. At the end of year party the coach said a few words about each player. His words about my son were he was a great rec ball player and very talented for that level. Clearly the coach did not choose him for the same travel team the next year. This coach also coached son during Catholic League. Son really wanted to pitch but coach already had two good lefties and kept son in the outfield. Did we pull our son because he was not getting to pitch? No. Even though the coach did not see the talent that we thought we saw, My son learned an incredible amount about baseball from this coach. He was a very good teacher and he knew baseball and he could get it across to kids. 

Son eventually aged out of CCL, and since we sent him to public school he played against this coach or his son but did not play for him again. Fast forward to freshman year of HS. We were playing at a field and son was warming up, to pitch. The old coach was behind the plate watching him warm up. I walked up to say hello and we exchanged pleasantries. He asked about the pitcher and if it was my son. We talked about it and he said he looks pretty good. I thanked him and he moved on to another diamond to watch his son play. 

Fast forward to rising senior year. Both our sons were at the same showcase. He was again standing behind the fence at home plate watching my son warm up. I walked up and again we exchanged pleasantries. He starts asking about son, We exchange notes. As he walked away, He commented, "I guess I was wrong about your son, I did not know what I had."

In reality, when he had my son, he was not wrong about him. He was pretty talented but he was pretty small, and while he had potential, he had not caught up to many of the other kids physically. It took a lot of work and effort on my sons part. I always respected the coach, and took his input. But just because at 9 he was just a really good rec player does not mean he had to stay at that level. Things can change. Son worked very hard and became one of the better HS pitchers in our area. 

Out of that original travel team three kids went on to play college. 2 at d3, and one at D1. I am proud to My kid was one of those. 

So even if a kid is not one of the hardest throwers or best athletes at 9/10. All hope is not lost. 

My youngest, when he was 12 was throwing 88.  Three years later and a very large growth spurt, he's throwing 119.  Very good mechanics.  He has not stopped getting taller yet and is 6ft tall (turns 16 in late July).  Last 7 games he pitched, he had 1 walk, averaged 6 strikeouts per game, and given up 4 earned runs.   He's just started working out with weights, plays travel and HS ball, basketball, and a HS diver. I attribute his velocity increase to his mechanics and mostly due to his growth.  I believe his velocity was below average at 12 and average at 15.  Who knows where he will end up.  Oh, the numbers are in kilometers per hour.

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

Let me tell you a story... My son as a 9/10 u could not see the mound. At the end of year party the coach said a few words about each player. His words about my son were he was a great rec ball player and very talented for that level. Clearly the coach did not choose him for the same travel team the next year. This coach also coached son during Catholic League. Son really wanted to pitch but coach already had two good lefties and kept son in the outfield. Did we pull our son because he was not getting to pitch? No. Even though the coach did not see the talent that we thought we saw, My son learned an incredible amount about baseball from this coach. He was a very good teacher and he knew baseball and he could get it across to kids. 

Son eventually aged out of CCL, and since we sent him to public school he played against this coach or his son but did not play for him again. Fast forward to freshman year of HS. We were playing at a field and son was warming up, to pitch. The old coach was behind the plate watching him warm up. I walked up to say hello and we exchanged pleasantries. He asked about the pitcher and if it was my son. We talked about it and he said he looks pretty good. I thanked him and he moved on to another diamond to watch his son play. 

Fast forward to rising senior year. Both our sons were at the same showcase. He was again standing behind the fence at home plate watching my son warm up. I walked up and again we exchanged pleasantries. He starts asking about son, We exchange notes. As he walked away, He commented, "I guess I was wrong about your son, I did not know what I had."

In reality, when he had my son, he was not wrong about him. He was pretty talented but he was pretty small, and while he had potential, he had not caught up to many of the other kids physically. It took a lot of work and effort on my sons part. I always respected the coach, and took his input. But just because at 9 he was just a really good rec player does not mean he had to stay at that level. Things can change. Son worked very hard and became one of the better HS pitchers in our area. 

Out of that original travel team three kids went on to play college. 2 at d3, and one at D1. I am proud to My kid was one of those. 

So even if a kid is not one of the hardest throwers or best athletes at 9/10. All hope is not lost. 

 

Great story & message.

2forU posted:

My youngest, when he was 12 was throwing 88.  Three years later and a very large growth spurt, he's throwing 119.  Very good mechanics.  He has not stopped getting taller yet and is 6ft tall (turns 16 in late July).  Last 7 games he pitched, he had 1 walk, averaged 6 strikeouts per game, and given up 4 earned runs.   He's just started working out with weights, plays travel and HS ball, basketball, and a HS diver. I attribute his velocity increase to his mechanics and mostly due to his growth.  I believe his velocity was below average at 12 and average at 15.  Who knows where he will end up.  Oh, the numbers are in kilometers per hour.

I was thinking this is Sidd Finch's son.

RJM posted:

At nine and ten the focus should be on proper mechanics. There should also be a focus on not pitching too much. 

+ 1 to both of the above points

Rob T posted:

I know my 10U son throws harder than anyone on his team. Probably harder than all but 1 or 2 kids in the entire league.

Now if he could just manage to throw the ball in the strike zone he would be ready to drop out, get his GED , and do a couple years at a JC so he will be ready for the draft by the time he is 13 or so.  He's tired of playing with these less talented players, so it's time for him to move on to a team where everyone works at hard at his craft as he does.

I know it seems a bit much but this kid sleeps, eats, and dreams of nothing other than making the MLB.  He's a truly dedicated, elite level player. 

I like the way you think.

Draft of the FAQ response.  Warning - It's a bit long.

Answer to “How Fast Should My Son Be Throwing”

The question, “How fast should my son be throwing at age xx” is one that crosses many parent’s minds.  We want our son to be successful at baseball, or maybe we see that he’s faster than most of the other kids in his league.  It is natural to wonder how he stacks up for his age. 

Before we get to some numbers, let’s consider a few important things.

• Be careful of over use and injuries.  If your son throws hard or throws strikes, there are a lot of unscrupulous coaches out there who’d love to over-throw your son.  Look at ASMI’s guidelines for pitch counts and demand that they be observed.  He’s your kid.  You have the final say.  http://www.asmi.org/research.p...on=positionStatement

BTW. Travel ball is not an absolute necessity to be a good player.   But, if you do want to participate, find a good team and coaches who protect players.  Search this board’s forum for more information about the pros, cons, value and just plain useless hype involved in the travel ball industry.

• Be careful yourself about over-throwing issues. Too much practice at full-intent can be dangerous.  Make sure that they get a lengthy period of rest each year.  See ASMI for more information on that.

Now, on to what you came for.

• How hard a kid throws as compared to others can be a bit deceiving. Most every poster on this forum can tell a story about a kid who while young was dominant with his fastball, bat, etc., but who largely fizzled later on.  What generally happens here is that a kid has matured early on as compared to his peers, and is bigger and stronger and thus dominant.  Sometimes these same kids largely quit growing and the others catch up.  So, it can be dangerous to try to identify future Big Leaguers” or project fastball velocity out into the post puberty time frame.  Some kids do continue to grow and get better.  If they have big parents, then some projecting may be valid.

I’ve seen one guy post a chart on line that purports to project velocity to 16 y/o based on what a kid throws at 8 or 9.  NO!  There are way too many variables for this to be true.

• How does the kid throw for his particular size? Do you look at him and say, “Man, for his size he really throws it”? Or do you look at him and say, “Man for a big kid, his fastball’s pretty soft”?    Those who are soft for their size are often times either not very well trained or not particularly gifted at pitching.   If your son is a bit small but throws as hard as a lot of bigger guys that’s a positive.  However, if you are 5’9” and your wife 5’2”, then maybe your son won’t be that big and may never have elite velocity.  

On that note, if your son is a 5’10” 145 lb sophomore throwing upper 70s low 80s and you have reason to believe that he will grow taller and stronger, then one might be able to carefully project his future somewhat. 

Remember to be wary of “Daddy Glasses.” 

• It is a bit hard to get real averages for fastball velocities.  Quite simply, no one is taking readings of every kid who throws in a game across the nation.  What information we have is usually compiled by trainers and some researchers and often times include kids who are already to some degree a bit advanced.  So, what’s the true average?  

• There’s no substitute for hard work and want-to. Mechanical adjustments and work out programs can help a lot.

• A pitcher should throw as hard as he can while still throwing strikes (in games). Intent is an important part of velocity.  At the younger ages, throwing hard is a little more important than throwing strikes.  Learn to throw with effort and sound mechanics; then dial those pitches in for strikes.

Now, here is what a few people have had to say:

 Steve Ellis - http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/pitching_speeds.htm

10 and below – between 40 and 50 mph.

11 and 12 – between 50 and 60 mph

13 and 14 – “55 mph (on the low side) to 75 mph. A pitcher throwing 75 mph is well above average for this age, and their fastball is at a high school caliber.”

High school – “A high school pitcher can be anywhere from 14 to 18 years of age. This plays a factor in determining an average fastball velocity, however keep in mind that most high schools have a Freshmen, Sophomore, and Varsity program to break up the large age gap. On the average, a typical Varsity high school fastball is between 75-85 mph, although many good Varsity pitchers will be seeing the upper 80s and low 90 range. The Freshmen pitchers will usually be throwing at a comparable speed to the 13 and 14 year olds, and the Sophomores will lie somewhere in the middle.”

Yougopro baseball http://www.yougoprobaseball.co...should-i-be-pitching  has put this out.

The average pitcihng speed for an 8 year old

The average pitching speed for an 8 year old is 39 mph.

The median pitching speed for an 8 year old is also 39 mph.

The mode pitching speed for an 8 year old is 38 mph.

The range of pitching speed for an 8 year old is 36 - 42 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for a 9 year old

The average pitching speed for a 9 year old is 44 mph.

The median pitching speed for a 9 year old is 45 mph.

The mode pitching speed for a 9 year old is 45 mph.

The range of pitching speed for a 9 year old is 37 - 50 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for a 10 year old 

The average pitching speed for a 10 year old is 47 mph.

The median pitching speed for a 10 year old is 48 mph.

The mode pitching speed for a 10 year old is 47 mph.

The range of pitching speed for a 10 year old is 41 - 55 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for an 11 year old

The average pitching speed for an 11 year old is 52 mph.

The median pitching speed for an 11 year old is 55 mph.

The mode pitching speed for an 11 year old is 56 mph.

The range of pitching speed for an 11 year old is 43 - 59 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for a 12 year old

 The average pitching speed for a 12 year old is 55 mph.

The median pitching speed for a 12 year old is 53 mph.

The mode pitching speed for a 12 year old is 54 mph.

The range of pitching speed for a 12 year old is 47 - 61 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for a 13 year old

 The average pitching speed for a 13 year old is 62 mph.

The median pitching speed for a 13 year old is 63 mph.

The mode pitching speed for a 13 year old is 63 mph.

The range of pitching speed for a 13 year old is 55 - 66 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for a 14 year old

 The average pitching speed for a 14 year old is 68 mph.

The median pitching speed for a 14 year old is 68 mph.

The mode pitching speed for a 14 year old is 68 mph.

The range of pitching speed for a 14 year old is 63 - 73 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for a 15 year old

 The average pitching speed for a 15 year old is 70 mph.

The median pitching speed for a 15 year old is 68 mph.

The mode pitching speed for a 15 year old is 69 mph.

The range of pitching speed for a 15 year old is 65 - 74 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for a 16 year old

 The average pitching speed for a 16 year old is 76 mph.

The median pitching speed for a 16 year old is 74 mph.

The mode pitching speed for a 16 year old is 75 mph.

The range of pitching speed for a 16 year old is 69 - 80 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for a 17 year old

 The average pitching speed for a 17 year old is 80 mph.

The median pitching speed for a 17 year old is 81 mph.

The mode pitching speed for a 17 year old is 81 mph.

The range of pitching speed for a 17 year old is 71 - 85 mph.

The average pitcihng speed for an 18 year old

 The average pitching speed for an 18 year old is 83 mph.

The median pitching speed for an 18 year old is 84 mph.

The range of pitching speed for an 18 year old is 75 - 92 mph.

 There you have it.  Be careful and remember to have fun with your son.  Despite what t-shirts and bumper stickers say, baseball is not life.

The best 12yo LL all star pitcher on a quality team is typically throwing 70. We had one throwing 75. There was another kid in the district throwing this hard. Of the eighteen teams there had to be 6--8 kids throwing 70. 

Now put together a hand picked 12u travel team. It would be loaded with kids throwing 70. Our 14u travel team had six kids throwing 80+.

When my kids were going through 12yo all stars, there were a few kids throwing 70-73.  One went on to blow out his arm (he was a mid 80's HS Sophomore when it happened - no longer pitching - his larger younger brother was throwing 74 as an 11 year old - not sure what happened to him (they had been called genetic freaks by their velocity coach), two others could not find the plate on the big field and no longer pitch, and the other transitioned full time into swimming (he had a hard time throwing strikes - Jr. Olympics swimmer).  I'm not sure any of them really had any fun based on what I saw and the intensity from their parents, except the guy who swam, he had fun no matter what he was doing.

hshuler posted:

2020dad posted:

We have been down this road so many times before...  I still don't and never will understand how people can be so judgemental based soley on opinions and anecdotal evidence.  Do any of you have hard evidence that gunning a 9 year old brings about Armageddon?  and why do you care so much what other people do?

@2020 - I've found over the last several years that what SOME people say on a public forum and what actually happens are sometimes polar opposites. 

I could see that.  

RJM posted:

The best 12yo LL all star pitcher on a quality team is typically throwing 70. We had one throwing 75. There was another kid in the district throwing this hard. Of the eighteen teams there had to be 6--8 kids throwing 70. 

Now put together a hand picked 12u travel team. It would be loaded with kids throwing 70. Our 14u travel team had six kids throwing 80+.

Your experience is far different than my own.  I gun kids at all tournaments as a hobby.  Just fun to do.  At 12 I gunned exactly one kid throwing 70 the entire year.  Six kids throwing 80 on a 14u team would make that one of the very best teams in the nation.  Which very possibly your son's was.  But I think most are talking about what is really really good not otherworldly.  Incidentally most of those LL kids throwing 70+ were actually 13.

BishopLeftiesDad posted:

Let me tell you a story... My son as a 9/10 u could not see the mound. At the end of year party the coach said a few words about each player. His words about my son were he was a great rec ball player and very talented for that level. Clearly the coach did not choose him for the same travel team the next year. This coach also coached son during Catholic League. Son really wanted to pitch but coach already had two good lefties and kept son in the outfield. Did we pull our son because he was not getting to pitch? No. Even though the coach did not see the talent that we thought we saw, My son learned an incredible amount about baseball from this coach. He was a very good teacher and he knew baseball and he could get it across to kids. 

Son eventually aged out of CCL, and since we sent him to public school he played against this coach or his son but did not play for him again. Fast forward to freshman year of HS. We were playing at a field and son was warming up, to pitch. The old coach was behind the plate watching him warm up. I walked up to say hello and we exchanged pleasantries. He asked about the pitcher and if it was my son. We talked about it and he said he looks pretty good. I thanked him and he moved on to another diamond to watch his son play. 

Fast forward to rising senior year. Both our sons were at the same showcase. He was again standing behind the fence at home plate watching my son warm up. I walked up and again we exchanged pleasantries. He starts asking about son, We exchange notes. As he walked away, He commented, "I guess I was wrong about your son, I did not know what I had."

In reality, when he had my son, he was not wrong about him. He was pretty talented but he was pretty small, and while he had potential, he had not caught up to many of the other kids physically. It took a lot of work and effort on my sons part. I always respected the coach, and took his input. But just because at 9 he was just a really good rec player does not mean he had to stay at that level. Things can change. Son worked very hard and became one of the better HS pitchers in our area. 

Out of that original travel team three kids went on to play college. 2 at d3, and one at D1. I am proud to My kid was one of those. 

So even if a kid is not one of the hardest throwers or best athletes at 9/10. All hope is not lost. 

Great lesson to parents here...we should be concerned about overall development versus our kids playing where we think they should play.  Also, have an honest assessment of where our kid is at the moment because sometimes they aren't good enough to do certain things at the moment, and that's okay. It doesn't mean they can't develop in an area. A little adversity or humility, when managed properly, can be a great motivator. 

RJM posted:

The best 12yo LL all star pitcher on a quality team is typically throwing 70. We had one throwing 75. There was another kid in the district throwing this hard. Of the eighteen teams there had to be 6--8 kids throwing 70. 

Now put together a hand picked 12u travel team. It would be loaded with kids throwing 70. Our 14u travel team had six kids throwing 80+.

I can agree with these numbers...the "ace" on a 12u team throws about 70. I would guesstimate average is about 60.

 My son's 12u team played a team from Texas at a 12u PG event last year.  They changed pitchers every inning and not one boy threw under 70, most were around 75.  I have to say, there were a lot of 12u kids standing at the plate not moving hoping for a walk. Keep in mind 12u plays on 50x70 fields.  75mph, coming from 50 feet away...I'm glad it wasn't me in the batter box!

"There is not one of you who was not curious enough to ask when your 9 year old first started playing competitive ball."

Raises my hand....ahem, I didn't ask and wasn't even close to being curious. In fact, if I had seen anyone at a 9yr old game with a radar gun I would have seriously laughed! I just wanted my son to have fun and learn the game at whatever level he could that young. At age 11 he threw a Perfect game. So what. It just showed me that all of his "off season" working on mechanics with Dad in the hot Georgia sun paid off. At age 12 he was selected to All Stars and the Head coach of that team had a large lefty that in my opinion had a better curve ball than Barry Zito! The kid was unhittable and was the best pitcher in the area. Fast forward to son's Junior year in high school and we're playing against the local HS team where this lefty played at. He was playing 1B. When I asked a parent I knew on their team how this lefty's season was going thus far his comment to me was basically "he hasn't toed the rubber all season for us, and won't. He can barely throw the ball back to the Pitcher. His arm is ruined." I instantly felt sorry for the young man. He was a likable kid. My point? Here was a dad who at the time was proud of his son. Enamored. His son was literally LIGHTS OUT on the mound at 12/13yrs old. But was so caught up in his son's talent with that incredible curve ball that he couldn't see the forest for the trees (the future). A parent of a son (or daughter) at age 9 should be more focused on their child learning the game, learning respect for the game, coaches, Umpires, hustling, how to be a good teammate, staying safe, proper balance between sports and school, and last but not least - HAVING FUN! Do you know what they call comparison? The thief of joy. If a parent is at a ball field and see's another player that may seem a notch faster, harder thrower, better hitter than his or her child the best thing you can do for your son/daughter is let it go. Someone above mentioned that there are SO many different dynamics physically, emotionally, etc that is taking place that all you're really doing is comparing apples to oranges! 

The 12yr old team that my son played on was VERY good and one of the best team's in the county by far. No big stars but just a lot of athletically gifted ball players. The 3 coaches they had all played college baseball and each of their boys were VERY VERY good baseball players. By the time they were in 9th grade my son was the only one still playing the game. He's in his 3rd year of Pro ball and the ONLY player in the entire area still playing the game. What did he throw at age 9? Heck if I know. And didn't care. Today he's 93-95 but would rather talk about the hard work he's done lately developing a really good change-up. This is him just last month at the California Winter league working on pitches and playing for his new coach/getting to know him this coming season. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...qHuhTqU&index=33

If your son begins seeing in you that you're more focused on how good he is or has any hints that (by comparison) he's not as good and/or advanced than other kids, you're going to begin driving a wedge deep. A wedge that will drive away his love, hope and joy as to WHY he wanted to play baseball. A wedge that subliminally whispers in his ear that he doesn't meet some expectations and/or standards of his Dad.  

Put away the radar guns, stat books, etc. and instead carry the fishing poles so that after the game he knows that you guys are going fishing next and he is beside himself getting to hang out with Dad out on the lake!. 

And for what it's worth, I haven't been "snotty" since my last sinus infection. Just saying. lol

YGD

Well said YGD.

Good story with a great message YGD.

Edit - And, Young YGD looks damn good out there!

YGD, there is a difference about being interested in a 9 year olds velocity versus letting effect your relationship with your son, nothing in the op suggests anything other than the first. Secondly, you perhaps forget when your son was that age. Likely you were interested, and even asked.

Your overall point is solid, but I doubt you had no interest at that age.

Brensdad posted:

YGD, there is a difference about being interested in a 9 year olds velocity versus letting effect your relationship with your son, nothing in the op suggests anything other than the first. Secondly, you perhaps forget when your son was that age. Likely you were interested, and even asked.

Your overall point is solid, but I doubt you had no interest at that age.

Brensdad, please take the message - the solid overall point.

There is a reason the posters who have already been down the road are expressing issues with 9 y.o.'s being gunned and their parents being concerned/curious about their velo while parents of younger players are defending it.

And BTW, I didn't forget when my kids were that age, or when any of my hundreds of players were.  I never had any interest in having any of them gunned at 9 (or 10 or 11..)

BRENSDAD, I absolutely had ZERO interest in his velocity at thta age. None. Nada. I thought I had made that as clear as I possibly could but maybe I missed the boat in conveying that. Heck, I was just happy he had decided to play baseball again after taking a 4 year hiatus and played so***r instead! I could care LESS how fast he threw a baseball at 9yrs old. 

And I disagree with you about there being a difference in a Dad who is interested in his 9yr old son's velocity and it's "effect" that you mention above. I wasn't advocating that any of this affected the relationship between son and father. But rather how the thoughts, actions and possible inerrant words could/would be misconstrued along the way by the son and begin feeling "less than" or not able to meet the expectations the Dad has because of comparisons. And let me say that I am not painting these kinds of Dads as bad or wrong. I know they mean well and want the best for their sons. I didn't know the FIRST THING about pitching when my son showed interest. I was a football player growing up. But I figured if he wanted to pitch then find a way to teach him the skills so he could at least enjoy it. So I got online and did some research. Ended up buying the Dick Mills series on VHS tapes (this was in 2001! lol) and we just started watching them and then would go outside to work on the different drills. It was great Father-son time and it bonded us tremendously. 

One of the beauties of hindsight is glancing back and learning from the myriad of mistakes made along the way. And inhaling with pride the few things which were meaningful and made a positive, lasting impact. After Little League where my son grew up there wasn't much to offer in way of baseball after that. So we ventured down the road to Travel ball. This eventually opened up the world of competitive ball, East Cobb, PG, WWBA events, great windshield therapy on long trips, and making tons of new friends. But as I look out over the landscape now I see that the world of travel ball as we knew it has opened up so many new cans of elitism and trying to place boys at levels that perhaps they're not prepared for or should only experience if earned. For instance, I'm not a proponent of teams say less than age 15 or so being ranked either on a National or even State level. That's my opinion on that subject because all I see it doing is causing parents to race to making sure their son(s) are on the road to a self-imposed rat race at such a young age. The race to be the best, play the best, and having the best. What subliminal messages is this sending boys at such a young age? They can learn all of this years later down the road. Let them be boys and the innocence those years bring for gosh sake. I'm not by no means minimizing on teaching how to win and how to lose gracefully. Instead of getting in the car after a game and bringing up that he should be throwing as hard as young Johnny or running as fast as little Eddie  on his team, just ask "Did you have fun today?" "What was your funnest moment on the field?" "Great hit today and boy you sure ran fast to the bag!" etc etc etc. 

So now you can see why I initially cringed when I saw the OP message about a 9yr old's velocity and what it possibly meant. We all have our own motivations as to why we do certain things and I'm old enough to know that just because I bring all of this up it has the HUGE potential to fall on deaf ears. But maybe, just maybe, this young dad might pause for a moment and step back and see this from a different perspective. 

Brensdad posted:

Well lets see, just a question, some of you a little too fired up. There is not one of you who was not curious enough to ask when your 9 year old first started playing competitive ball. So lets just chill out, a simple question as to whether 30 mph is average or 80, or likely in between.

And regardless of what is posted above there is likely some correlation between early velocity and later velocity. No doubt,  not an exact science, but certainly an indication of things to come.

And if you ask why would a person want to know... Well that question could be asked up and down these forums.

Brensdad,

It does not add to any 9 year old's experience to know the velocity. It is solely an adult thing and it is one of those "adult" things which raises, in my mind, the question of the "value" and "responsibility" of adults to their son's when they want this information.

At age 9, I had no idea how hard our son threw.   At age 9, I knew he threw hard, but others threw harder and most did not. I also learned that throwing hard at ages 9-12 can create risks including risks to the growth plates.

 None of it mattered then and none of it matters now.  Last night I got to stand on the mound of the University where our son played and had enough success to have  a MLB team draft him.  After he and I got to share throwing out the first pitch, I was thinking a bit about this thread.  What I can tell you is what he did at age 9 was have enough fun to develop a love for baseball and begin to develop skills which allowed him to play at a very high level until age 27. On our trip to San Antonio, and last night, we talked a fair amount about baseball and our son.  None of it related to velocity, bat exit velocity, 60 times, etc.  That information may be important to scouts and coaches at age appropriate levels.  In my view, they are pretty much out of bounds in the relationship of a parent, their 9 year old son and baseball.

"instead carry the fishing poles so that after the game he knows that you guys are going fishing next and he is beside himself getting to hang out with Dad out on the lake!."

Best post I've read Ina long time!    

The first talk about throwing velocity with my 2016 was when he went to Cooperstown as a 12 year old.  Pitching velocity was mentioned because some teams were bringing in 6'1 12 yr olds to throw gas against 12 yr old midgets from 50'.  It was a safety concern.

I mentioned yday that my brother was dealing w 8/9 yr parent coach's using radar on kids to decide teams.  That is crazy... Told him to get way from program & away from parents talking velo at 9.  Fun & continued development & keep playing other sports...

YoungGunDad posted:

BRENSDAD, I absolutely had ZERO interest in his velocity at thta age. None. Nada. I thought I had made that as clear as I possibly could but maybe I missed the boat in conveying that. Heck, I was just happy he had decided to play baseball again after taking a 4 year hiatus and played so***r instead! I could care LESS how fast he threw a baseball at 9yrs old. 

And I disagree with you about there being a difference in a Dad who is interested in his 9yr old son's velocity and it's "effect" that you mention above. I wasn't advocating that any of this affected the relationship between son and father. But rather how the thoughts, actions and possible inerrant words could/would be misconstrued along the way by the son and begin feeling "less than" or not able to meet the expectations the Dad has because of comparisons. And let me say that I am not painting these kinds of Dads as bad or wrong. I know they mean well and want the best for their sons. I didn't know the FIRST THING about pitching when my son showed interest. I was a football player growing up. But I figured if he wanted to pitch then find a way to teach him the skills so he could at least enjoy it. So I got online and did some research. Ended up buying the Dick Mills series on VHS tapes (this was in 2001! lol) and we just started watching them and then would go outside to work on the different drills. It was great Father-son time and it bonded us tremendously. 

One of the beauties of hindsight is glancing back and learning from the myriad of mistakes made along the way. And inhaling with pride the few things which were meaningful and made a positive, lasting impact. After Little League where my son grew up there wasn't much to offer in way of baseball after that. So we ventured down the road to Travel ball. This eventually opened up the world of competitive ball, East Cobb, PG, WWBA events, great windshield therapy on long trips, and making tons of new friends. But as I look out over the landscape now I see that the world of travel ball as we knew it has opened up so many new cans of elitism and trying to place boys at levels that perhaps they're not prepared for or should only experience if earned. For instance, I'm not a proponent of teams say less than age 15 or so being ranked either on a National or even State level. That's my opinion on that subject because all I see it doing is causing parents to race to making sure their son(s) are on the road to a self-imposed rat race at such a young age. The race to be the best, play the best, and having the best. What subliminal messages is this sending boys at such a young age? They can learn all of this years later down the road. Let them be boys and the innocence those years bring for gosh sake. I'm not by no means minimizing on teaching how to win and how to lose gracefully. Instead of getting in the car after a game and bringing up that he should be throwing as hard as young Johnny or running as fast as little Eddie  on his team, just ask "Did you have fun today?" "What was your funnest moment on the field?" "Great hit today and boy you sure ran fast to the bag!" etc etc etc. 

So now you can see why I initially cringed when I saw the OP message about a 9yr old's velocity and what it possibly meant. We all have our own motivations as to why we do certain things and I'm old enough to know that just because I bring all of this up it has the HUGE potential to fall on deaf ears. But maybe, just maybe, this young dad might pause for a moment and step back and see this from a different perspective. 

YGD. I disagree some with the idea that velocity is a terrible thing to be concerned about, but can't disagree a bit with the rest.   Great job brother. You and I could probably be good friends. 

Gov posted:

The first talk about throwing velocity with my 2016 was when he went to Cooperstown as a 12 year old.  Pitching velocity was mentioned because some teams were bringing in 6'1 12 yr olds to throw gas against 12 yr old midgets from 50'.  It was a safety concern.

I mentioned yday that my brother was dealing w 8/9 yr parent coach's using radar on kids to decide teams.  That is crazy... Told him to get way from program & away from parents talking velo at 9.  Fun & continued development & keep playing other sports...

Well said Gov and the same about infielddad's post.

I find it very interesting and disturbing that so many folks with young pitchers are hung up on velocity, even if it is just for fun gunning someone else kid. FWIW, if I found another parent had been doing that to my kid whether it be a hobby or not, I would make sure that guy stayed far away from my son. There is no reason why a gun should be put on a 9 -12 year old, no reason whatsoever. Someone can give all the reasons why its ok, but its not ok.

The first time son had a radar gun on him, with our permission, he was entering HS.  It didn't matter but my husband was curious.  Not at 9, never at 9, 9 is about having fun and learning the game. The next thing I remember was he was hitting 90 as a  young junior.  The next time was when those scouts showed up before draft time during HS or tournament games. That is when I became curious or really cared, and then through any injury in professional ball.  

IMO the only thing that is going to make a pitcher throw harder and better, is solid mechanics and mother nature.  All of these programs wont help one bit, maybe if you have a pitcher who is older and stopped growing or has had an injury at one time or another.

I agree that you shouldn't focus on velocity at the youngest age groups.  However everyone knows that velocity or a good fastball is impossible to ignore.  The young boy that recognizes it the most would be the one standing in the batters box.

Also, every young kid with a good arm will at times throw a baseball as hard as he possibly can.  Doesn't matter if there is a radar gun around or not.  When we were young we threw snowballs as hard as we could without even warming up.  We would play a game called burn out in our neighborhood.  We didn't need a gun to figure out who had the best arm. Had there been a radar gun there, it wouldn't have made any difference.

I think it is important that we do everything possible to protect young kids and that includes their arm.  It is most important that we never take the fun out of the game.  We need to eliminate abuse whenever possible.  But you know what, kids with good arms will still throw the ball as hard as they can at times.  Just like everyone else that had a good arm always did.

Eliminating the abuse falls on the shoulders of adults.  We have all seen it. The thing that would help the most is if adults (Parents and coaches) would quit riding the horse in order to win or impress.

But telling a young boy not to throw hard isn't likely to work any better than telling him not to jump so high or run so fast.  As far as the radar gun goes it just registers speed, just like a stop watch registers speed. If a kid gets hurt and blows out a knee because he tried to run too fast, would we blame the stop watch.

All that said, it does seem kind of strange when someone has a radar gun at a nine year old game.  Seems sort of odd, but I sure don't see anything harmful about it.  What is harmful is when a young kid throws too much and too often.  And that has nothing to do with a radar gun. It has everything to do with ego, selfishness and ignorance.

I can honestly say, that when my kid was 8 or nine, we did not talk about velocity. And none of the parents on his team did or the coach. We worried about outs. Whether it was a ground ball or a fly ball. Strike outs were nice as well.  Yes the pitchers were the harder throwers. But no one talked about velocity. 

Back then if you wanted to know velocity, you had to be good with a stop watch. Rafar guns were not in parents budgets. Even those who were very well off. Most programs could not afford them.

You never saw them at a youth game or even at the cages. Velocity is a more recent item for the younger generation. Most kids did not know there velocity, until they started down the recruiting path, and the show cases had them.

I agree that it is not that important that they know.  I just don't see any harm in them knowing.  Too me there is more potential harm when they play on a field with fences.  Yet everyone likes fences.

I just think we are going overboard on this whole radar gun thing.  I can actually see why a father might be interested in how hard his boy throws a baseball.  Just like a father might be interested in how far or hard his boy can hit a baseball or how fast he can run or how high he can jump.

I think my boys were around 16 years old before I ever put a radar gun on them.  That was my choice since I have had a gun ever since they first came out.  I still don't see a problem with anyone using a radar gun whenever they want to.  Some want to make the radar gun responsible for something it isn't.  The fault should all be placed where it belongs, with those responsible for the abuse.

Tape Measure, stop watch, radar gun, they simply measure things.  Maybe video cameras should be blamed.  Maybe they cause kids to try too hard because they know people will see the video.

I don't think it is necessary to know the velocity of a young boy.  I'm actually more irritated by something else when it comes to velocity.

What really gets me is when they blame the radar gun for the injuries in high school age kids.  Just imagine this, you are a HS pitcher and there are 50 radar guns behind the backstop.  Would you be nervous, would you want to show your best velocity?  Of course you would!  OK, what if there were 50 Major Leagues scouts and college recruiters behind the backstop and none of them had a radar gun.  Would you be nervous, would you want to show your best velocity?  With or without the radar gun, you will want to show your very best velocity.  

So if we want to find blame, why blame the tool that measures velocity.  Let's just blame velocity itself.  Then again, that won't work because that is exactly what they are looking for.

Infielddad, long time no see my friend. That was a most excellent post and as usual it was very well said. IMO, this last sentence " In my view, they are pretty much out of bounds in the relationship of a parent, their 9 year old son and baseball" pretty much sums up how I really feel on this. 

BishopleftiesDad, " Radar guns were not in parents budgets. Even those who were very well off" Ain't that the truth! hahaha

Thank you PABaseballDad and Teaching Elder for the kind words. My intent here was in no way to rebuke or discourage the OP but only to maybe catch his attention that he might see another perspective. We only have one time to get this right with our kids. I can't and never will tell anyone how to raise their children as that is a personal choice and matter. Being parents is a daily "on the job" training exercise that we hopefully get right a majority of the time rather than not. My son is 25 now. When I joined here he was 15yrs old and the things I learned from the Old Timers then about various topics helped me tremendously. It opened my eyes to other perspectives to consider and take care of my son. 

YGD

WGD,

You know I used to tell kids that thought they knew it all to make sure they respect their elders.  If you think you know a lot right now, just think how much smarter you will be 20 years from now.  You might just find out those elders were right.

I wish I knew back when my kids were young what I know now.  There are so many things I would have done differently. Maybe that is one of the best things about this site.  Younger parents can learn (if they want to) from others who have been in their shoes years before.  instead of learning from your own mistakes, it can make things much easier to learn from someone else's mistakes.

My son and I too never knew what velocity he was throwing at these younger ages.  It was obvious to everyone that he threw much harder than most everyone and received many comments from parents and other observers about that.  Only first saw his measured velocity a couple years later when playing on an elite travel team as I sat behind someone in back of the backstop who was gunning pitchers during a game (about 10 years ago).  Eventually we saw much more radar guns measuring him in his Jr. and Sr. year of high school (he was touching 93 by end of HS). 

I vividly remember a time after the end of son's 12u LL season, son tried out for an elite travel ball team and they had him pitching one level up from his age group.  It was very apparent he was trying to impress them by throwing as hard as he could and he did show really good velocity . . . only  many throws were sailing high into the backstop.  Finally, the coach came out to him to calm him  down and told to simply throw strikes.  He did so and still had good velocity that was impressive for his age.  Kids WILL and do tend throw harder than they need to in order impress people around them.  As they grow and mature, they learn that velocity is not the only thing of interest to impress someone (well . . .most of them, anyway).

It's amazing what you can find out with a quality radar gun.   I've seen very few teenage pitchers throwing in the mid 80's and that's was gunning pitchers in the 16U travel tournaments last year.  

I know the harder throwers are out there but just haven't ran across them yet.  

The gun is a distraction for younger kids. Last year my 13U pitchers would turn around to see their velo posted after every fastball. They were more focused on velocity than pitching. I get it...they're competitors and want bragging rights because boys will be boys. Touching 80 was the goal @ 13U just as hitting 85 @14U is this year's goal for some. 

My son's organization has two teams (mostly 8th graders and few 9th graders) in the 14U age group and the radar gun is starting to matter now as the goal is to make your high school team and eventually play in college. The radar gun doesn't matter at 9U - 13U.

I can tell you that we have played teams from all across the nation and the so called best players in the country at 9U & 10U aren't the best players now at 14U. I vividly remember one kid who was touted as the consensus "Top Dog."  The kid is still a good player but not nearly as dominate because he was simply an early puberty kid.  Now that many others have entered puberty, he's not dominant anymore. 

As mentioned previously on this thread, there are so many variables that are out of anyone's control to predict future success. Personally,  my main goal was to keep my son interested in the game until he hit puberty. The way I did it was making sure that he had fun. I firmly believe that kids don't 'burn out' but stop playing because they are NOT having fun for various reason. Give kids a ball and a bat w/o adult supervision and they'll play 24/7/365. We adults are the one who mess it up.  

There is a lot of wisdom on this board for those who are interested in hearing it. Many on here are trying to keep us from making the same mistakes they did and come from a place of sincerely wanting to help. Hopefully, we'll take heed to good advice. 

I had an idea of my son's velocity relative to the nuts who gunned their kids. But it never mattered to me. When I coached preteen I focused on consistent footwork, balance and proper throwing motion. As a kid grows the velocity will come. 

After 9u summer three gung ho dads arranged pitching lessons for their kids in the fall. I was asked if I wanted my son to be a fourth in the group. I told them it's time to rest from baseball and play soccer. Then he will play basketball and pick up a baseball late February. The dads told me my son would fall behind. I laughed at them. My son was the only one of the three playing after 13u. Two of the kids had elbow or shoulder surgery by age twelve. "Don't worry. They're big strong kids."

As far as pitching goes, if you build it right (mechanics) the velocity will come. It was amazing how much velocity my son picked up when he grew from 5'4" to 5'11" one year. That is once I got him past geekdom and back to quality mechanics. 

As always I believe different things are right fir different people.  No one can say what may or may not enhance a kids experience when we don't even know them.  But how about a different take on this..  its all well and good for the superstar parents to sit back and be cool.  They know bigger things are ahead for their kid.  But what if a kid is a star only til 12?  Or 14?  Or whatever.  Rather than always say - don't worry about these things til later...  maybe there won't be a later and they need to enjoy the here and now.  Maybe being the hardest thrower at 11 will be as good as it gets for some kids (of course I believe the hardest thrower at 11 will probably be good later too).  But what if that really is as good as it gets?  Let them enjoy it.  Should a high school playet not be aware of or enjoy his accomplishments if he doesn't get recruited?  Should a D3 player not because he didn't go D1?  D1 who doesn't get drafted?  Draftee cause he doesn't make the bigs?  What's wrong with enjoying the here and now?  Tomorrow is not guaranteed.  Whats wrong when your son celebrates hitting 50 for the first time?  60?  70?  Etc.  I know if and when my son puts the 8 in front of the second number we will celebrate.  And I won't care how many experienced wise people tell me I am focused on the wrong things.  Live and let live.

There simply can't be a straight forward answer to a question on this board.  We've got to read into everyone's unspoken motives and then chastise them for some fault we've imagined that they have.  Who wants to ask a simple question around here anymore?

Maybe the guy was just wondering how fast an average 9 y/o throws.  Maybe he doesn't even have a 9 y/o.  How do we know he's some overbearing parent whose going to ruin his son's arm?  And who are we to assume that he can't balance the kid getting radared and a healthy father-son relationship or continued love of the game?   

The world is not going to collapse because 9 y/os have been radar gunned.  Like it or not, speed matters.  Want to end all the non-sense?  Tell coaches and scouts to stop taking hard throwers and focus on the kids who are having a great time.  See what I mean?

Teaching Elder, you are a wise poster.

2020dad posted:

As always I believe different things are right fir different people.  No one can say what may or may not enhance a kids experience when we don't even know them.  But how about a different take on this..  its all well and good for the superstar parents to sit back and be cool.  They know bigger things are ahead for their kid.  But what if a kid is a star only til 12?  Or 14?  Or whatever.  Rather than always say - don't worry about these things til later...  maybe there won't be a later and they need to enjoy the here and now.  Maybe being the hardest thrower at 11 will be as good as it gets for some kids (of course I believe the hardest thrower at 11 will probably be good later too).  But what if that really is as good as it gets?  Let them enjoy it.  Should a high school playet not be aware of or enjoy his accomplishments if he doesn't get recruited?  Should a D3 player not because he didn't go D1?  D1 who doesn't get drafted?  Draftee cause he doesn't make the bigs?  What's wrong with enjoying the here and now?  Tomorrow is not guaranteed.  Whats wrong when your son celebrates hitting 50 for the first time?  60?  70?  Etc.  I know if and when my son puts the 8 in front of the second number we will celebrate.  And I won't care how many experienced wise people tell me I am focused on the wrong things.  Live and let live.

It all depends on ones perspective on what's appropriate.  Now you are talking hitting 80, which typically happens in HS.    I think that is usually the time where it becomes important.  Earlier you posted that you took velocity of players at 9.  Before high school there are so many more things that are important than measuring velocity in baseball. 

Your comment regarding parents of superstars can sit back and be cool because we know bigger things are ahead.  How can you make such a statement?   Wait until your son has an injury that puts them behind.   You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you don't get that, but I know others will.

Don't take this personally, but of all the folks I know who spent time on measuring their players velocity, spending thousands on lessons, travel , you name it, they always seemed to have an insecurity about the boy next door getting more opportunities than theirs. Just wait until you begin the recruiting journey.

So what happens when your son reaches a certain age and stops gaining velocity (which can happen often in HS until the next phase).  You have put so much importance on that factor, what will you say to him?  

You know, you come hear and post things than you get a discussion going and than you say that you don't care.

I think that really isn't true.  

Teaching Elder posted:

There simply can't be a straight forward answer to a question on this board.  We've got to read into everyone's unspoken motives and then chastise them for some fault we've imagined that they have.  Who wants to ask a simple question around here anymore?

Maybe the guy was just wondering how fast an average 9 y/o throws.  Maybe he doesn't even have a 9 y/o.  How do we know he's some overbearing parent whose going to ruin his son's arm?  And who are we to assume that he can't balance the kid getting radared and a healthy father-son relationship or continued love of the game?   

The world is not going to collapse because 9 y/os have been radar gunned.  Like it or not, speed matters.  Want to end all the non-sense?  Tell coaches and scouts to stop taking hard throwers and focus on the kids who are having a great time.  See what I mean?

There will never be a straight answer on this board. Its an open discussion with many different opinions. If you ask a question, probably you won't get the answer you are looking for. It just doesn't work that way.

The answer to the question is obviously it doesn't matter.

2020DAD and Teaching Elder,

FWIW, I agree with what both of you had to say.  Everyone knows how important it is for young kids to enjoy them self.  Having fun is absolutely critical.

The question is what makes it fun.   Is it the same for everyone?  Fun for me when I was a young boy was playing sports all day, every day. Playing in real games was the most fun of all.  I'm sure there were many kids that wouldn't have had fun doing that.

What made me sad is my parents could care less about sports.  They never came to the games.  It didn't keep me from enjoying things, but I wish they would have been there and it wouldn't have bothered me if they brought a radar gun to the game. That wouldn't have made any difference in how much fun I had.  

My parents were great people, they just worked hard and didn't have the interest or time.  It's obvious that the parents that post here do have the interest.  I think that is wonderful no matter how they go about things. I learned a long time ago that there are many different paths to success.  Sports can actually help some become better people. And we all know that good people are much more important than good baseball players.

I kind of agree with everyone, I mean all the bases are covered right. If OP isn't an over bearing dad, that's covered, he got his opinions from that side of the fence.  If he has his 9 yo in the gym looking for speed increase, that's covered too, job done.

Ive read this forum for a couple years before I joined, I was guilty of a few things back then, I may have taken things to serious, talked about bad plays, should have done this or should have done that after games. This board made me realize I was wrong, thats not opinion, thats a fact, how do I know this,  by the little kid sitting in the back seat and how he feels about himself and his body language. Now I wasnt that bad, but a few poorly timed words here and there really can damage a fragile young mind.

I think this forum needs all the opinions, I did and I dont think any of the opinions are wrong, there's no better way to take in all the facts to be able to make sound decisions for your kids and if you choose not to, you cant say you didnt know any better.

My 14U pitches today first time this year in an intrasquad scrimmage.  Although I do not have a radar, there are a couple dads who usually do.  I'm really curious to see what he throws.  So is he.  It's not end all, be all, but I'm curious.

I coached a lot at 9, 10yo.  I don't recall velocities being looked at, but really appreciating a kid who could throw strikes.

Johnny I think you are spot on.  EVERYBODY'S OPINION is important.  Unless we are talking about something measurable that can be proven - for example the old hit the too half of the ball...  if you think that will produce balls in the gap you are just plain wrong.  There is no room for opinions on that.  But this is clearly an opinionated topic.  

RJM,

I never gunned 9yo games - but I don't have an issue if somebody does - its just fun.  I did get a pocket radar and start gunning when my son was 10 so pretty much the same thing.  We (yes me AND him) have a blast between games walking around gunning kids who look like they are throwing hard.  Especially if we get one of his friends at a new high its exciting.  Now he is 14 and we still gun with that same PR (darn thing won't break to give me an excuse to get a ball coach!)  Truth is I rarely gun my son because I am pacing while he pitches.  Now some may run with that statement - yes I get very nervous when my son pitches.  He hates that I don't gun him like I do others.  I am very familiar with injuries halting promising careers at every level.  I did coach a long time so I most certainly do have an idea.  We don't do lessons.  We have done probably less than a dozen over 5 years.  Last couple years none.  Not that it matters we just have to draw the financial line in the sand somewhere.  If I had the money he very well might go to somebody.  As for travel - its fun!  We don't take family vacations.  We travel for baseball and swimming.  We wouldn't have it any other way.  Like a bunch of mini vacations.  What will I say when velo stops?  If its a plateau (oddly enough we are kind of in one)  here is what I did.  I think you may actually like this!  Watched some video of when he was 11.  I told him I really miss those days.  Wish we could go back and start all over.  Told him we are putting the gun away for a while and I want him to go back to being that 11yo and just have some fun for a while and we will pick up with the measuring later.  When velo stops permanently?   I try to prepare him mentally all the time.  He still believes in his heart he can make it to his dream school.  This in a way breaks my heart because I think he is in for a huge letdown.  I keep telling him to be open minded.  What if you can play for a great D3?  Tell him we are going to find time to see some Whitewater games this year.  Ask him what if its football?  The reality is the sport may choose you rather than the other way around.  So as for how I will feel during recruiting...  you must have a lot more confidence in my son than I!  I am not sure there will be recruiting.  Thats the goal.  Thats what we are working towards.  And I don't want to poor mouth either, I do think chances are good he will be recruited at some level but definitely not a certainty.  What do I care about?  Being welcoming to folks here and having a lot of fun talking baseball.  I have no objections to disagreements and exchange of differing ideas - thats great.  But when it turns to I know an you dont.  And I am right and you are wrong.   Or my ultimate pet peeve when I perceive some sort of moral high ground.  And note I said perceive because I do not have a window into a mans soul.  Hopefully I addressed all your questions.

Go44dad posted:

My 14U pitches today first time this year in an intrasquad scrimmage.  Although I do not have a radar, there are a couple dads who usually do.  I'm really curious to see what he throws.  So is he.  It's not end all, be all, but I'm curious.

I coached a lot at 9, 10yo.  I don't recall velocities being looked at, but really appreciating a kid who could throw strikes.

Good luck to son - hope he lights up those guns!  The control vs. Velo is a separate debate I know.  But some people look at me funny when I say my son's control or lack thereof is not a big concern.  Of course I want him not to walk people but most important to me is #1 velo  #2 batting average against (which I really view as a measurement of movement) and three being able to throw all three pitches.  If his curve ball is sharp but he walks the guy by throwing two in the dirt so be it.  He has a lot of time to learn that release point.  Just throwing that out there - not even sure why Lol!

2020dad posted:

Go44dad posted:

My 14U pitches today first time this year in an intrasquad scrimmage.  Although I do not have a radar, there are a couple dads who usually do.  I'm really curious to see what he throws.  So is he.  It's not end all, be all, but I'm curious.

I coached a lot at 9, 10yo.  I don't recall velocities being looked at, but really appreciating a kid who could throw strikes.

Good luck to son - hope he lights up those guns!  The control vs. Velo is a separate debate I know.  But some people look at me funny when I say my son's control or lack thereof is not a big concern.  Of course I want him not to walk people but most important to me is #1 velo  #2 batting average against (which I really view as a measurement of movement) and three being able to throw all three pitches.  If his curve ball is sharp but he walks the guy by throwing two in the dirt so be it.  He has a lot of time to learn that release point.  Just throwing that out there - not even sure why Lol!

Son's control is pretty good.  Sometimes it even looks like command. Still strictly fastball/CU.

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

1) It doesn't work that way (scaleable year by year increases).

2) It doesn't matter and you shouldn't care. And I mean that in complete seriousness. Performance at 9-10 is a precursor for nothing. Let your boy pitch if he loves having the ball and competing. You should be far more interested in his attitude on the mound and his ability to solve his own problems. To me, the kids that get in trouble and continue to bear down are way more projectable than those throwing 50+ at 10 years old.

hshuler posted:

The gun is a distraction for younger kids.

 

The kids first PC (at about 9/10) was an ex MLB who had to leave the game because of an injured arm. Toward the end of practice he would always bring out the radar gun. Yeah the first couple of time it was a big deal. You know what, after a few lessons it was like "oh, the radar gun, yawn".

So he'd have them throw in steps  70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (or crap your pants hard). Know what the kids found out, that a lot of the time the velo at 100% was lower than 90, or sometimes even 80. That's a great lesson going forward for kids that age. As they got older he used it to show the difference in velo between pitches, and yes, to see how they were progressing.

So I see the radar gun as a tool. Like any tool I guess it can be misused, but I just didn't see a problem.

At some pro ball fields they have booths where one can pay to throw a ball and see how fast they're throwing.  There are other places you might see such a booths, like a county fair or some amusement park and you'll find kids (and parents) spending money there to see their throwing velocity that they can have some fun.  So yes, getting feedback on how hard you throw and how you might compare yourself to someone else can be great "fun" for many at any age.  But for the young' kids we're talking about, I simply don't see any value in it other than for the fun of it.  The measuring of velocity just doesn't become otherwise important until HS age.  

There is a lot of wisdom on this board for those who are interested in hearing it. Many on here are trying to keep us from making the same mistakes they did and come from a place of sincerely wanting to help. Hopefully, we'll take heed to good advice. 

Well said HShuler. 

SomeBaseballDad posted:

hshuler posted:

The gun is a distraction for younger kids.

 

The kids first PC (at about 9/10) was an ex MLB who had to leave the game because of an injured arm. Toward the end of practice he would always bring out the radar gun. Yeah the first couple of time it was a big deal. You know what, after a few lessons it was like "oh, the radar gun, yawn".

So he'd have them throw in steps  70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (or crap your pants hard). Know what the kids found out, that a lot of the time the velo at 100% was lower than 90, or sometimes even 80. That's a great lesson going forward for kids that age. As they got older he used it to show the difference in velo between pitches, and yes, to see how they were progressing.

So I see the radar gun as a tool. Like any tool I guess it can be misused, but I just didn't see a problem.

The guy had to leave the game due to injury. So if he was really a good pitching coach, knew about working with youth pitchers, he would be teaching the basics, not treating them like they were professionals.

Absolutely it is a great tool, but only if used for the right purpose. 

That's the point that people are trying to get across.

TPM posted:

SomeBaseballDad posted:

hshuler posted:

The gun is a distraction for younger kids.

 

The kids first PC (at about 9/10) was an ex MLB who had to leave the game because of an injured arm. Toward the end of practice he would always bring out the radar gun. Yeah the first couple of time it was a big deal. You know what, after a few lessons it was like "oh, the radar gun, yawn".

So he'd have them throw in steps  70%, 80%, 90%, 100% (or crap your pants hard). Know what the kids found out, that a lot of the time the velo at 100% was lower than 90, or sometimes even 80. That's a great lesson going forward for kids that age. As they got older he used it to show the difference in velo between pitches, and yes, to see how they were progressing.

So I see the radar gun as a tool. Like any tool I guess it can be misused, but I just didn't see a problem.

The guy had to leave the game due to injury. So if he was really a good pitching coach, knew about working with youth pitchers, he would be teaching the basics, not treating them like they were professionals.

Absolutely it is a great tool, but only if used for the right purpose. 

That's the point that people are trying to get across.

Good lord.....

His point to the kids was, you don't have to throw as hard as you can to pitch effectively. That if you are say 65 at 100% and 63 at 70 (and you might be surprised how many were 63 at 100% and 65 at say 80) that 3 mph isn't going to make that much of a difference. And how many pitches can you throw at 100% vs 70. Skip to the present and the kid was at 87-89 end of summer. In PBR's comments about him they note "regular effort" on the mound.

My son also noted it was nice to see the correlation between effort and velo. Some kids, even young kids, aren't as stupid as most here would assume they are. But maybe the biggest impact using the gun had was how quickly the kids became indifferent to it.

Kyle Boddy posted:

The best velocity measurements for 9/10 year olds is how fast you let them take time off in the off-season to do anything besides baseball.

Lot of likes you got there KB.  

tres_arboles posted:

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

1) It doesn't work that way (scaleable year by year increases).

2) It doesn't matter and you shouldn't care. And I mean that in complete seriousness. Performance at 9-10 is a precursor for nothing. Let your boy pitch if he loves having the ball and competing. You should be far more interested in his attitude on the mound and his ability to solve his own problems. To me, the kids that get in trouble and continue to bear down are way more projectable than those throwing 50+ at 10 years old.

Great point. The mental side of the game is so overlooked at young ages. I used to assure my son there will be better fielders behind him when he gets older. But they will still make errors. In high school he told fielders to shake it off if they appeared flustered by an error.

RJM posted:

tres_arboles posted:

Brensdad posted:

for a 9/10 year old pitcher, what is average and what is above average? And what is expected increase year after year? Thanks

1) It doesn't work that way (scaleable year by year increases).

2) It doesn't matter and you shouldn't care. And I mean that in complete seriousness. Performance at 9-10 is a precursor for nothing. Let your boy pitch if he loves having the ball and competing. You should be far more interested in his attitude on the mound and his ability to solve his own problems. To me, the kids that get in trouble and continue to bear down are way more projectable than those throwing 50+ at 10 years old.

Great point. The mental side of the game is so overlooked at young ages. I used to assure my son there will be better fielders behind him when he gets older. But they will still make errors. In high school he told fielders to shake it off if they appeared flustered by an error.

I so agree with the mental aspect. My middle son can throw hard. Really hard. But he loses it if he gives up a couple of hits or walks.  Or makes an error. He has a lot of physical tools but the mental aspect is just not there. He ended up concentrating on football and will play at a nice D3 in the fall. 

As far as radar guns would you believe I've never seen one on my kids?  3 boys with the youngest now a sophomore and while I know that at baseball camps and tryouts they've been gunned I've never seen one in a game. To be fair, there was only one season of varsity baseball between the older 2 due to injury and concentrating on football.  I would expect that this year we will see a radar or 2 with the youngest playing varsity. But zero at the youth levels. We've been very lucky I guess. 

I would love to know when people think things DO matter.  And I think every age is a precurser for something.  There are kids that are so bad at 9 you can clearly see they will never be an athlete.  And then there are the 9 year olds who are smooth and athletic  and the son of a former pro ballplayer and you can see right off they are going to be good.  The difference is you can really only eliminate the obvious and predict future success for the standouts.  Then with each passing year you can get a little more accurate with your projections.  But to say you cant tell ANYTHING from watching young kids...  well I just can't agree with that.  But all that is not really the point is it?  The point is the guy just asked a simple question about what is a good velocity f Ir a 9 year old.  We can't say it doesn't matter cause it matters to him.  That's all that really matters.  When I was that age I threw as hard as I humanly could.  There were exactly zero radar guns in those days.  I fail to see any negative impact a radar gun can have.  In fact I can't wait to try what somebaseballdad was talking about.  Next time I am with my son throwing a side I am going to have him climb that ladder from 70% to 80% etc.  See where his top velo really lies.  It may well be at 100% and it will not be a useful excercize...  then again what if we learn something that makes him more effective?   That radar gun will certainly be a great tool won't it?  Oh and by the way son has struggled for last three years to find a change up grip that is more than a few mph slower than his fastball.  He has finally found one and with good movement too.  One guess how we know this change is 8 - 10 mph slower than fastball...

You can see possibilities when kids are preteens. It guarantees nothing. You can then look at the athleticism in the family, or lack of to further consider the possibilities. But still nothing is guaranteed. And kids of athletes aren't always athletic. As a friend (an All American in the SEC, high draft choice, made it to AAA) said, "I think my wife polluted the family athletic gene pool." Sometimes an athlete comes from a family you wonder how the hell it happened.

Even after having talent there's motivation, work ethic, attitude, staying healthy, girls, cars, jobs, alcohol, drugs, academics, other sports that can all get in the way.

i started hearing "You won't have to pay for college" in three sports by the time my son was seven. I smiled, thanked the person and walked away chuckling thinking, "He's freak'n seven." Given family history I knew it was probably a matter of just wanting it. But it's a long journey to college ball with a lot of distractions. 

Excerpted from an interview with noted surgeon Dr. James Andrews:

PD: What advice would you give pitchers, in general?

J.A.: 1. Use proper mechanics. The No. 1 problem in any specific sport is improper mechanics.

2. Don't play year-round.

3. Avoid the radar gun at a young age. Don't try to overthrow. A lot of kids are 13 years old and checking the radar gun. That's going to get you in trouble. The radar gun makes you want to throw harder than you are capable of throwing.        http://tinyurl.com/bg7wu2p

Excerpted from a second interview with Dr. Andrews

“I think they should outlaw the radar gun,” he said. “Young pitchers, coaches, scouts and parents put so much emphasis now on throwing hard that these kids are hurting their elbows and their shoulders because they're trying to throw 90 mph.”

The radar gun, Andrews said, is one of many injury risks at the youth and high school level in an age of baseball that is seeing more and more teenage athletes on the operating table instead of the pitching mound.   http://tinyurl.com/835pef6

Excerpted from an article by Dr. Andrews.

Risk – Radar Gun
Young baseball players should not concentrate on their velocity. This is promoted by a dad’s radar gun in the backyard or by a coach putting a radar gun on a young pitcher which promotes a pitch velocity beyond their safety margin. Young baseball players in the Little League age groups have an underdeveloped Tommy John’s or elbow ulnar collateral ligament, and it is easy to redline that ligament if they are over throwing with a radar gun.  http://tinyurl.com/zc8s775

I don't really see anything wrong with wondering how fast a kid throws.  Even at 9.  And I agree that you can see the extremes.  But there is a lot of projection going on, especially at those ages.  On my son's 9 year old team the kids who were considered to be the studs were not necessarily the same kids who were the studs at 14.  Some were, some weren't.  And there is really no rhyme or reason as to which kids stayed on the trajectory and which fell off.

One thing I have seen is that the most athletic kids aren't sticking with baseball.  Once they hit high school they start concentrating more on football or basketball.  I'm sure the availability of scholarship money for those sports is part of that appeal. 

As an aside, I'm not criticizing parents for however they want to handle their child provided it isn't harmful to that child.  I have been criticized for taking my son to a pitching coach starting at age 8.  Why would I do that?  Because we had just taken our oldest in for surgery for a torn labrum.  His doctor attributed his injury to improper mechanics.  You can bet your sweet patootie that I wanted to make sure the other boys were taught the right way from the start if they wanted to pitch.  Now, his private coaching consisted of about 3 visits to teach him the mechanics and drills to teach him muscle memory.  We go back every year for anywhere from 2-5 lessons before the season starts to make sure he hasn't picked up bad habits, introduce a new pitch, or whatever it is that he needs to work on.  And then he might go back in for a 'tune up' visit during a break in the season.  Some people think we are crazy.  I think I'm a mom with a kid who hasn't been injured(knock on wood) and who doesn't have a sore arm after throwing.  That is more important to me than other people's opinions. 

MTH;

thank you for this report. Dr Andrews is a friend and his "words" are to be listened to.

"You only have one arm" opportunities begin at 15 not 9 years old.

Bob

"founder of the Area Code games" and International Goodwill Series event

What John Smoltz has to say about kids, radar guns, and parents who think he's from Mars:

Step 1: abolish the radar gun from use at youth tournaments.

Smoltz went public with that appeal last week at the Youth Sports Health Symposium in Windermere, Fla., saying the use of radar guns encourages kids to throw with maximum effort before their bodies are developed enough to handle such stress.

“And doctors tell me that’s a big reason for the increase in Tommy John surgeries,” Smoltz said by phone after the symposium. “Kids are exerting too much force and the ligaments can’t handle the force at such an early age.”

At the big-league level those surgeries have become the bane of the sport, as more and more young stars — from Matt Harvey to Jose Fernandez to Zack Wheeler — blow out their elbow ligament.

But apparently that’s nothing compared to what’s happening at younger age levels. Dr. James Andrews, the famous surgeon, was quoted last year saying that overuse injuries to youth pitchers have increased “seven to 10-fold” since 2010..........

“There are a lot of factors involved and there’s no easy fix,” Smoltz said. “But it has to start somewhere. I have parents coming up to me all the time, telling me how hard their 12-year-old is throwing, based on the radar gun.

“A lot of the parents have these cameras with built-in radar guns. They all think they have the next Matt Harvey. I’m all for dreaming and there’s no doubt you can do things to increase your ability. But too many parents think they can manufacture a superstar, and it just doesn’t work that way.

“More is not better. Kids shouldn’t be throwing year-round, especially in high-stress situations in these national showcases. I hate it because I feel like some kids are being robbed of the greatest years of their lives, but when I try to explain that to parents, some of them look at me like I’ve come down from Mars.”   http://tinyurl.com/hr6957e  

2020dad posted:

I would love to know when people think things DO matter.  And I think every age is a precurser for something.  There are kids that are so bad at 9 you can clearly see they will never be an athlete.  And then there are the 9 year olds who are smooth and athletic  and the son of a former pro ballplayer and you can see right off they are going to be good.  The difference is you can really only eliminate the obvious and predict future success for the standouts.  Then with each passing year you can get a little more accurate with your projections.  But to say you cant tell ANYTHING from watching young kids...  well I just can't agree with that.  But all that is not really the point is it?  The point is the guy just asked a simple question about what is a good velocity f Ir a 9 year old.  We can't say it doesn't matter cause it matters to him.  That's all that really matters.  When I was that age I threw as hard as I humanly could.  There were exactly zero radar guns in those days.  I fail to see any negative impact a radar gun can have.  In fact I can't wait to try what somebaseballdad was talking about.  Next time I am with my son throwing a side I am going to have him climb that ladder from 70% to 80% etc.  See where his top velo really lies.  It may well be at 100% and it will not be a useful excercize...  then again what if we learn something that makes him more effective?   That radar gun will certainly be a great tool won't it?  Oh and by the way son has struggled for last three years to find a change up grip that is more than a few mph slower than his fastball.  He has finally found one and with good movement too.  One guess how we know this change is 8 - 10 mph slower than fastball...

@2020 - I agree that each parent should try to do what's right for their child. There is more than one way to skin a cat...and many different paths to success...but no guarantees. 

I can think of two sons of former major league catchers in my area who were both dominant players when they were younger.  One is still dominating and the other is not playing anymore. I am not saying that you can't see talent and athleticism but again, it's hard to predict the future. 

My son has a pretty decent arm (gunned at PG event) but I am careful because he has had some minor arm trouble. His doctor said that it's always the harder throwers that are in his office. He also said that they can sometimes generate more torque than their growth plates can handle. So he's averaged throwing around 20 - 25 innings over the last several years. I may be overly cautious because I know three kids who've had separated growth plates - one requiring surgery. The radar gun nothing to do with their injuries but they all threw hard. 

Personally, I can't see the value of gunning a kid at nine but others here have given examples of good experiences. I still wouldn't do it but I don't claim to have all the answers. I do firmly believe that you can't tell predict future success from 9 year-old performance. So, I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one.