Kyle Boddy posted:Consider that weight lifting's biggest benefit may not be in velocity development, but injury prevention.
+1 
Kyle Boddy posted:Consider that weight lifting's biggest benefit may not be in velocity development, but injury prevention.
So much truth in such a short statement.
Kyle Boddy posted:Consider that weight lifting's biggest benefit may not be in velocity development, but injury prevention.
Oh, I agree. never meant to diminish a good weight program's injury prevention benefits. My previous comment was directed to a post concerning lift development and direct velocity correlation (or lack thereof). I do, however, believe weightlifting for baseball players needs to be closely tailored and organized. I see a lot of kids who just head to the gym and start lifting with no plan as to what they hope to achieve from it. I lift five days a week myself and admittedly am not all that well organized. But, then again, I'm a 50yo coach and not a player, so it's not going to matter much if I screw it up.
As to velocity correlating with strength gains from weight lifting, I think it can be an immediate help for those who either don't bring enough mass or strength to generate the force necessary to bring about substantial velocity gains.
Hard throwing pitchers come in a lot of shapes.
Some are really muscular like Chapman and some are super thin like chris sale
I think people look at this all wrong. Yes there are freaks like sale who can just flat bring it. But it is intuitive and common sense that strength can only help and can't hurt. Do not confuse strength with body building. Two different things.
How are people looking at it all wrong? Did you read Kyles post in the other topic? Good stuff.
2020dad posted:I think people look at this all wrong. Yes there are freaks like sale who can just flat bring it. But it is intuitive and common sense that strength can only help and can't hurt. Do not confuse strength with body building. Two different things.
I'm with you and believe strength training is a very big component. Whatever works for you, do it! I wouldn't recommend anyone doing Jake Arrieta's training regimen but it works for him!
I agree with a lot of KB's teachings and know a local college player that spent some time with him last summer, the kid was ripped, very athletic to begin with and was trying to find his true ceiling, in an attempt to earn an opportunity to get more innings. We'll see in a few weeks when rotations are set as he's a middle relief that was used very sparingly in the past. Kudos to the kid for reaching out for help and getting better!
Body mass and genetics are a funny thing. I don't pretend to know anything beyond what I've seen or observed. There are some great ideas and guidance around here, some I've taken, some I've chose not to.
There is a former MTS player, current Mets affiliate that trains at the same facility as my son. He's all of 5'-9", 160lbs ringing wet and brings it at 97!!! Who can explain, it's nothing short of amazing!
If someone were to put together a list of the 10 very best pitchers in the past 50 years or more, what would those pitchers look like? Size? Body Type? Velocity? Command? Best Pitch? Etc.?
Just off the top of my head, others will probably have a different list...
Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mariano Rivera, Steve Carleton.
The list above includes Tall, Short, and in between. Skinny, muscular, and in between. LHP and RHP. Pitchers that relied on high velocity, command, special pitches, etc. Even different training methods. I think any list would be just as diversified.
To me, it just shows that there is more than one way to accomplish greatness.
PGStaff posted:If someone were to put together a list of the 10 very best pitchers in the past 50 years or more, what would those pitchers look like? Size? Body Type? Velocity? Command? Best Pitch? Etc.?
Just off the top of my head, others will probably have a different list...
Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mariano Rivera, Steve Carleton.
The list above includes Tall, Short, and in between. Skinny, muscular, and in between. LHP and RHP. Pitchers that relied on high velocity, command, special pitches, etc. Even different training methods. I think any list would be just as diversified.
To me, it just shows that there is more than one way to accomplish greatness.
Can't argue with that list.
Missing Dennis Martinez.
While its a great list, most of those pitchers were from a different era.
PGStaff posted:If someone were to put together a list of the 10 very best pitchers in the past 50 years or more, what would those pitchers look like? Size? Body Type? Velocity? Command? Best Pitch? Etc.?
Just off the top of my head, others will probably have a different list...
Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mariano Rivera, Steve Carleton.
The list above includes Tall, Short, and in between. Skinny, muscular, and in between. LHP and RHP. Pitchers that relied on high velocity, command, special pitches, etc. Even different training methods. I think any list would be just as diversified.
To me, it just shows that there is more than one way to accomplish greatness.
Great post. Thanks for your contributions here PG. They are appreciated.
TPM posted:Missing Dennis Martinez.
While its a great list, most of those pitchers were from a different era.
That is true. Just as an example, how far back do you have to go to find a Cy Young winner under six feet tall? I believe it's Tim Lincecum in ~2009/10?
Most are of the top pitchers these days are 6'2 to 6'5 and are more power than crafty, I think. Doesn't mean there aren't great smaller pitchers in the Bigs or college but I think your point is well taken.
If a kid gets to 92-93 by the time the NLI signing period comes around a big program coach is going to find space for him. Chances are a kid throwing 88-89 is going to have until after post soph summer or junior year to make a decision.
If this is all about throwing 92-93 and getting drafted it doesn't matter when the kid gets there. Not every pitching prospect (top ten rounds) plays at a ranked program. A friend's son played at a D3. He was at 84 in high school. He was drafted because he threw 93 his senior year of college.
My apologies if this is crude. But the joke is appropriate to the situation.
A young bull and old bull were standing at the top of the hill. They looked down and saw a herd of heifers. The young bull suggested they run down there as fast as they can and each grab themselves a heifer. The old bull calmly suggested they walk down, size up the situation and have as many options as they can handle.
hsbaseball101 posted:Most velocity gains I'm guessing is attributed to growth spurts. A 5'11 170lb kid is probably going to throw way harder than his former 5'2 120lb self. I'm curious if any adult has ever tried a velocity program without a previous injury that increased their velocity?
When asked what we did for our son my top answer was fed him and watched him grow. Once in high school he had hitting lessons to optimize his swing, pitching lessons to optimize his pitching mechanics and velocity and did a speed camp geared towards running the sixty.
Go figure he was a different player as a 6'1" 170 junior than a 5'11" 135 freshman (grew to 6'2" 195) I used to enjoy teasing him his sister was a 5'10" 140 pound freshman (played college softball at 150).
Dadof3 posted:2020dad posted:My son has not showcased and will not until he hits some numbers we have in mind that would make it worth it. He is closing in on the hitting end not so much with pitch velocity. We have yet to try driveline but seriously considering the $400 deal. Given the amount we have spent over the years... I will certainly ask him to throw with his football mouthpiece in - that's free, what is there to lose? In short we are willing to try about anything or at least entertain it. Not mechanically though we have to keep focused on improving mechanics and don't want to keep changing every time some questionable expert suggests something. My son has not been recruited and likely will have to sell himself more than be recruited. Will have to convince some team he will be the good soldier at the end of the bullpen, work hard and be a good teammate. However even that will not be possible without a velocity increase. He pitched in 17 games last year about 13 being starts. He lost only one. The last game of the year when he was completely exhausted from football workouts. He IS that guy many talk about. The guy who doesn't walk people (except when maybe you should), is a student of the game, throws mulitple pitches effectively and gets a lot of ground balls - he is a pitcher not a thrower. You know who cares about all that travel ball success? Him, his coaches, teammates and sometimes me. That's where the list ends. No college coach cares how well he does. We had a total of one guy talk to us last year when he was 14 and its really questionable how legitimate that was. VELOCITY IS KING. Don't ever doubt that. And you can't sit around and wait for it to happen magically. That's all we 2020ish crowd are saying. Nobody is ready to jump off a bridge cause their son doesn't have an early offer. Nobody is wigging out and we sure as heck aren't naive. If you think you can sit around and wait for it to magically happen then you are naive. Hope is not a plan. I would encourage all parents of 8th graders and freshmen to get the kid to work. You are laying the foundation now for the improvements that will get your kid recruited later. Do not be deceived into believing you are some how out of control and should just sit back and wait.
What was his velocity? Aren't there pitchers in the Majors who aren't the fastest but have great movement? I truly don't know the answer to that.
The pitchers with less velocity and great moment started with velocity. As they got older experience, command and savvy got them where they used to get with velocity.
When people bring up Maddux and Colon as examples of pitchers who don't throw hard I point out Maddux once cruised 93. Colon was mid to upper 90's. He hit 100 in a game when he was a lot younger.
2020dad posted:Shoveit4Ks posted:Dominik85 posted:A super lanky 6“4 guy who thows 85 might still get interestPLENTY of bigger, lower velo guys get attention, sign Power 5 D1 and/or get drafted. Even RHPs. You've heard it here, pro ball can develop players and college usually prefers to have kids who can contribute sooner. Plenty of D1s have pitchers who may touch 90 but live below it and there are plenty from either side that are 85-88 and throw 4 pitches for strikes.
We need to separate college from MLB. This is 100% true. There are a bunch of guys even D1 who aren't even capable of hitting 90. I have said a million times on here it is a complete and total myth that everyone in D1 throws 90. And 85 or 86 is that number I have said many times can get you there. Not gonna pitch on sunday for a power 5 probably but some mid to low D1 will pick you up for sure if you are 85 and great pitchability.
People often confuse cruising speed with max speed when they talk college velocity. Max speed gets you recruited. Cruise speed wins games.
TPM posted:Missing Dennis Martinez.
While its a great list, most of those pitchers were from a different era.
It's easy to disagree with lists, but where's Juan Marichal and Jim Palmer?
Goblue33 posted:TPM posted:Missing Dennis Martinez.
While its a great list, most of those pitchers were from a different era.
That is true. Just as an example, how far back do you have to go to find a Cy Young winner under six feet tall? I believe it's Tim Lincecum in ~2009/10?
Most are of the top pitchers these days are 6'2 to 6'5 and are more power than crafty, I think. Doesn't mean there aren't great smaller pitchers in the Bigs or college but I think your point is well taken.
Plus we know some of these pitchers came from the steroid era.
2020dad posted:Shoveit4Ks posted:Dominik85 posted:A super lanky 6“4 guy who thows 85 might still get interestPLENTY of bigger, lower velo guys get attention, sign Power 5 D1 and/or get drafted. Even RHPs. You've heard it here, pro ball can develop players and college usually prefers to have kids who can contribute sooner. Plenty of D1s have pitchers who may touch 90 but live below it and there are plenty from either side that are 85-88 and throw 4 pitches for strikes.
We need to separate college from MLB. This is 100% true. There are a bunch of guys even D1 who aren't even capable of hitting 90. I have said a million times on here it is a complete and total myth that everyone in D1 throws 90. And 85 or 86 is that number I have said many times can get you there. Not gonna pitch on sunday for a power 5 probably but some mid to low D1 will pick you up for sure if you are 85 and great pitchability.
My son pitches at a mid level D1.... they have three consistently over 90.. BUT if they keep throwing 90-92 all game they will get hit. Most of the upper class guys sit are 87-90.... with better breaking balls and experience. Some of the underclass guys show potential..... but freshman rarely pitch. They are just not mentally and proficient enough to get through 5-7 innings.
In high school everyone wants velo.... it wins.... but in college, while velo is great, it loses a little of the importance. If you are throwing in D1 you need "controlled" velo....command of the velo.... change the speed of the fast ball, placement, you need a faster sharper breaking ball than in HS and you need to be able to move it around. You also need to learn the art of getting in pitchers counts, and getting the batter to swing at your pitch to be able to turn DP's , youhave to size up a batters swing tendencies quickly... where he is at in the box, remember your scouting report.
In HS you can throw 90 and win a lot of games and listen to the uninformed about how the kid is a at rounder..... its like that stud quarterback that goes to big U and never learns how to read defenses.... ends up a where are they now.
There is no comparison to high school baseball and D1 ball throwing 90 + is great in HS..... won't get many out in D1 ball. I have seen many D1 pitchers throwing 86-87..... mid relievers with crazy curve and sliders and lefties too.... not too many starters though
Do tall pitchers get away with being skinny easier than shorter guys? It seems like the guys who throw really hard despite being super skinny are really tall. Randy Johnson and Chris sale look like they are just bones and skin but they are also 6"6 plus.
Dominik85 posted:Do tall pitchers get away with being skinny easier than shorter guys? It seems like the guys who throw really hard despite being super skinny are really tall. Randy Johnson and Chris sale look like they are just bones and skin but they are also 6"6 plus.
If apples and apples (which, of course, is never really the case), yes. Which has more capacity for velo, longer levers with moderate strength or shorter levers with moderate strength? Which release will be closer to home plate, therefore adding perceived velo and shorter time for a hitter to pick up the pitch? Which potentially allows for more severe angles of attack?
Dominik85 posted:Do tall pitchers get away with being skinny easier than shorter guys? It seems like the guys who throw really hard despite being super skinny are really tall. Randy Johnson and Chris sale look like they are just bones and skin but they are also 6"6 plus.
No one ever got fired for buying IBM. No scouts has ever been fired for writing up tall pitchers.
Kyle Boddy posted:Dominik85 posted:Do tall pitchers get away with being skinny easier than shorter guys? It seems like the guys who throw really hard despite being super skinny are really tall. Randy Johnson and Chris sale look like they are just bones and skin but they are also 6"6 plus.
No one ever got fired for buying IBM. No scouts has ever been fired for writing up tall pitchers.
So it is a SYA (save your ass) move by the scouts?
PGStaff posted:If someone were to put together a list of the 10 very best pitchers in the past 50 years or more, what would those pitchers look like? Size? Body Type? Velocity? Command? Best Pitch? Etc.?
Just off the top of my head, others will probably have a different list...
Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mariano Rivera, Steve Carleton.
The list above includes Tall, Short, and in between. Skinny, muscular, and in between. LHP and RHP. Pitchers that relied on high velocity, command, special pitches, etc. Even different training methods. I think any list would be just as diversified.
To me, it just shows that there is more than one way to accomplish greatness.
All great but only one was under 6', Pedro Martinez.