Velocity

Welcome 2020MOM - Although your son is a freshmen, his birthday would make him an 8th grader in most instances.  I think his numbers would compare favorably with kids his age and most freshmen. 

Remember that one year in age difference could be two or three biologically. 

Driveline is the by far and away the best program out there. Science driven and cutting edge all while being affordable and approachable. There are a lot of imposters out there who claim a lot of things that just aren't true. But I can tell you first hand that Driveline is the best way to go. A lot will depend on the amount of work your son is willing to put into it but if he is motivated to do so (and my son was willing to work for it) then you can't beat Driveline.

Texas Baseball Ranch is a great place and Coach Wolforth is awesome. Very expensive and not quite as approachable as the guys at Driveline. But a great program, nonetheless. I think the Ranch does a great job on arm care and provides some great instruction, but again, it's pretty expensive.

My son started with the Ranch at about 13-14 yrs old, but moved to Driveline and really liked it and still uses their training methods in his college program. 

And don't believe the naysayers out there about Weighted Ball program. Driveline has some great articles like this one https://www.drivelinebaseball....upporting-their-use/ that detail a new study at ASMI that show they are a great tool to help with building velocity. 

You will hear a lot of different opinions about how best to safely train and build velocity. You will also run into "pitching coaches" who don't really know anything about how to safely train. Sitting on a bucket while your kid throws a bullpen to him doesn't make him an expert. My son and I made sure to educate ourselves so we could form the best decision on which program worked best for him. I would also recommend reading the book "The Arm" by Jeff Passan, which is one of the best ways to educate yourself on the the risks to young pitchers.

Good luck!

Fascinating book...read it last year.  I am interested in when your son began using the weighted balls for training and if he did it on his own or actually at the facility in Seattle.  It looks like none of their "onsite" training is geared for kids my son's age and it seems before doing this that supervision would be important.

Welcome 2020mom, caco will be getting to you shortly if not already lol.  When you discover the secret to velocity pass it along to me! Lol.  But I am also looking into the driveline program. We are like you at an OK velocity but feeling like he needs a little boost. Time to try something different. And I think that is the key - the same thing may not work for everybody. Just got to keep trying!

Hi 2020Mom, I am the aforementioned Caco.  I will be sending you a PM, please look for the red circle near your name up top to access your private messages.

However, before I do that let me ask how big your son is?  How far into puberty is he?  Is he 6'2 and 200 pounds or is he 5'8 and 140 pounds?  This will matter greatly in the advice you receive.

2020Mom posted:

I have been reading the forum for several months and finally "joined" as an official poster!  So much great information here with kids at all levels.  So here's my issue...

My son is a Freshman in high school and has played travel ball year round while taking time off to shut his arm down once or twice a year.  He a "young" freshman just turned 14 at end of October.  He is a LHP and is in the low 70's.  He hit the weight room for the first time in the Fall while playing Freshman football [mostly on the sidelines although he enjoyed it very much!] and was able to build core/arm and leg strength. 

Any advice on the best way to build his velocity without hurting his arm?  I have read about the Driveline program where they use weighted balls and have heard differing opinions.  Any experience with any of your kids doing this and if so, at what age?  Other ideas or ways you know pitchers have increased velocity?  He loves baseball and is good at getting ground outs and has a great defense behind him so his stats looks good but his speed is lower than most at the tournaments we attend.  He would like to play in college (although I am sure he will be changing a lot over the next 4 years) and did great on the PSAT with all A's first semester.

I know he compares himself with others when you look up statistics for your teammates and others on sites like Perfect Game and even though he made the All Tournament Team was disappointed due to his low velocity number.  His abilities as a student may outrun his baseball skills which in my mind is fine but if there is a possibility of him going to a great college and playing ball that would be his dream.

 

It would help many of us to know his current physical specs (e.g. height, weight) along with some idea of what his gene pool is like . . .???

It's surprising how fast some kids mature physically over the next couple of year in HS.  So, if he's a little on the light side as a freshman I wouldn't be too concerned about velocity.  At this age there's such a large variance kids of this age, so your son shouldn't be too caught up in those who may be more mature with higher velocities.  

The main thing right now is to be sure he's developing and using the proper mechanics to get to the higher end of velocities.  This is a good time to develop the muscle memory for the proper mechanics.  Along with that, he should be working on strength, conditioning and flexibility of his core, and leg strength is important for a pitcher too. 

Weighted balls are ok to use as part of an overall strength and conditioning program, but they're better used as something to augment a strength and conditioning program and not as a primary function.   When those male hormones really kick in, there can be some amazing changes. 

2020MOM, My son (also a 2020) has strengthened his arm over the last several years with long toss.  Together with a consistent pitching coach that focuses on mechanics and a plyometric style workout, he has increased his velocity.  And also, he has physically matured, so some of it is definitely growing and getting stronger.

Here is the type of long toss he has done the last several years.  http://www.jaegersports.com/Ar...th-and-Conditioning/

Welcome 2020MOM!

I have two boys playing college baseball now.  One (SS/RHP) throws 90s in his sleep.  The other (SS/2B) needed a lot of work to improve.

Driveline is a great program.  My boys also did the Texas Baseball Ranch and one spent time at the Florida Baseball Ranch.  Echoing the Rover, Wolforth is great.  I'd say Randy Sullivan in Florida is much more approachable (and a physical therapist).  The Elite Pitcher's Bootcamp is a nice weekend introduction to the Ranch's concepts.  Whether it's one of the Ranches or Driveline, their ideas have been tested. 

IMHO, a lot depends on what the kid is able to do once they're not at a training site.  A lot of coaches won't or don't subscribe to Driveline's or the TX/FL/AZ Ranch concepts and it makes training alone or at your home location pretty challenging.

You mentioned your son hitting the weight room for the first time this Fall.  I can't emphasize that enough, if done correctly.  He's got a lot of time at this stage to really build himself up.  My older guy trained at Cressey in Massachusetts; my younger guy at Sparta in California.  These were very focused training/conditioning programs optimized for the athlete (age, sport, etc.).  Conditioning done right will help build a player's body...and as a result in my sons' cases, help them throw harder. 

Hopefully he can find a great conditioning program, and a great velocity improvement program.  As with a lot of things, it's time and money.  But for a pitcher, particularly a young man like yours, it can be $ well spent.  Good luck!

My son (2015) was 5'2 and maybe 110 as a freshman...throwing low 70's.  He never lifted....just threw long toss...ALOT!!   He added 5-6mph a year and was throwing 89-90 his senior year.  He has lifted since he got to college....but still doesn't do anything other than long toss as far as a throwing routine.  He's 91-92 now. 

Son is on a program in college that incorporates a lot of Baseball Ranch and some Driveline training methodologies.  I can say I'm a big believer. 

He worked with a local trainer in HS that trains lots of pro pitchers in the off season. He was in great shape but not a ton of velocity gain IMO  

In two months on campus this fall he jumped 4-5 mph. Says his arm has never felt better.  If you read some of their stuff some of this is mental too. Arm feels great allowing you to mentally throw with as much intent as possible. 

Good Luck

CaCo my son is 6'1" and a skinny 150 despite all he eats! 

Thank you for all the responses.  Our "gene pool" has some tall men on my side of the family...several at 6'3" but not so much on his Dad's side.  I appreciate all advice especially for conditioning.  We didn't want to push it too soon but now I can see we will probably need something more than what is available at his HS.

Driveline is a great program, and my son also works with the Texas Baseball Ranch.  A lot of similarities, and we worth with the Ranch since the academy he trains at works with and hosts TBR camps, so it works well.  I haven't found them to be unapproachable, however, pretty much the opposite in our experience.

Best of luck to your son, hope to hear more as he develops!

Truman posted:

Weighted balls are ok to use as part of an overall strength and conditioning program, but they're better used as something to augment a strength and conditioning program and not as a primary function.   When those male hormones really kick in, there can be some amazing changes. 

 Agree with Truman.  Weighted balls should be supplementary to strength & conditioning basics - squats, deadlifts, power cleans, plyometrics - as long as someone can show him how to safely and properly execute those movements.  Then, as he builds up a strength base, add in the weighted balls.

I see you are doing Jaeger-style long toss.  I'm a big believer in that for arm health.

I've never done a weighted ball program, but it's hard to argue with the results at Driveline.  The research they do at their facility is phenomenal.

2020Mom posted:

Fascinating book...read it last year.  I am interested in when your son began using the weighted balls for training and if he did it on his own or actually at the facility in Seattle.  It looks like none of their "onsite" training is geared for kids my son's age and it seems before doing this that supervision would be important.

He started right around the start of HS. He followed the Ranch program closely and then spent a month out at the Ranch during their summer program. He then moved to Driveline and did their "Remote" program for a couple of years. He actually went out to Seattle and trained there this summer before heading to college. 

I made a deal with my son a long time ago where I would support him financially with these programs as long as he worked hard at them, which he did so it was a great experience. Not all kids are willing to put the work into doing the things that it will take to play at the next level. A lot say they do, but never end up wanting to put in the work.

I'm grateful that he is much more informed kid on arm care, proper movement patterns and the effort it takes.

FrankJP posted:

Driveline is a great program, and my son also works with the Texas Baseball Ranch.  A lot of similarities, and we worth with the Ranch since the academy he trains at works with and hosts TBR camps, so it works well.  I haven't found them to be unapproachable, however, pretty much the opposite in our experience.

Best of luck to your son, hope to hear more as he develops!

The Ranch is great and all of the people there are awesome. My point about "approachable" was more about communicating remotely. Kyle and the Driveline team are great about answering tweets, emails and texts. I doubt too many people are just picking up the phone and calling Wolforth. It's not a knock on Wolforth at all, he's a fantastic coach and even better person. His family is incredible. 

Just wanted to clarify what I meant by that statement. 

I see you're from San Diego. At this point, no need to spend money to go anywhere.

There is a PC in Poway who has a stable of over 100 pro pitchers (many are cracking MLB) - most of whom have been with him since college or before. His goal is velo. Go, sit in his Back Yard, and see for yourself. (Right now the program is in full swing so your son may get a kick out of just watching the scene. At this point it's 7 days a week until the men begin heading off to ST.)

I could fill a page with what I think, but he'll explain it better - Jeager v. Weighted balls v bands, etc.. Let's just say he took my S in ninth grade who was low 70s, 5' 3" ish and 115, and turned him into a HS senior throwing 90 (5' 11", 140 as senior), with no injuries, lots of fun and mentoring (S is now retired and still keeps close touch). S was not an outlier result.

We spent five days a week during HS driving from downtown out to Poway (his program has a great physical training element [Hoefflins]), continued training whenever S was in town during college, and through his pro years.

Tremendous pro and college connections (every type of college, from JUCO through IVY league). My S had minimal showcase and travel ball exposure; just pitched in the Back Yard and the exposure came to him.

On top of that, as a person who cares about the kid (not just the baseball part), you'd be hard pressed to find a better mentor.

So, go see for yourself; doesn't matter which program is great (and there are many), unless your S bonds with the coach and wants to be there, there is no point.

Feel free to PM me for details, if you're interested.

My son has always been one of the hardest throwers in his age group,   he's thrown 82 recently as a 14 yr old 8th grader.   Our future high school pitching coach reached out to us when he heard we were going to attend his school next year and invited my son to do a weighted ball workout that he's been doing with his high school and travel team pitcher during the month of Dec and Jan.   Ill let you know how it goes,  its been tough to stay on program we seem to miss 1 or 2 day every week for 1 reason or another but I think its helping.   at a minimum it seems hes getting his arm in shape for the spring season about to start down here in Texas  like tomorrow.    It was interesting when coach pulled out the radar the other day and was getting times for every color ball the intensity really picked up.    Everyone complained of being sore the next day,  as an aside from a different thread I picked up a marc pro on ebay for about 1/2 cost of a new one and my son used it that night and was only kid the next day that was not sore.   

Please, no one take offense, BUT FOR HS FRESHMAN AND YOUNGER, STOP THE VELO OBSESSION!

I can't count the number of young pitchers I have seen who are throwing beyond what their body is prepared to take - with the resulting career ending or career retarding injuries (needing TJ or labrum and taking a year off as a Jr. Is a disaster).

Building velo is a process - a long process with incremental or no improvement for periods following by noticeable increases (notable being 2 - 3 mph over a six month period). Many times it's because the growth spurt knocks the coordination off and NOTHING - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - a PC can do can override that; moreover, trying to can lead to disaster. During puberty, the body development mostly drives the improvement; but during that time, dialing in decent mechanics, getting the kid to feel his body (so he's not just mechanically going through the motions) is critical; during this period, doing the correct PT will build up the body so it's prepared for the day when all parts are reasonably mature and ready to rock and roll.

Pulling out a radar gun on these kids is lunacy - because the kid pitches to the gun, exerting more effort which doesn't get any real velo and can lead to injury.

Put another way, no college coach cares, no scout cares, about what a 15 year old throws. This is a marathon and all too many treat it as a sprint - and have their kid sprinting a marathon is a recipe for disaster.

As the parent of a kid whose life dream was advancing to baseball's next level, it was a process with no fairy dust leading to success; it was hard, hard work for a long, long time with small improvements with no shortcuts. 

PATIENCE!

PS. I am speaking as one who is able to pontificate from the other side (post-baseball). I am simply trying to offer the lessons we learned - I was just as obsessed as most during those HS and even earlier years (I was the crazy one with a radar gun on 12 yr olds.) We didn't understand s**t going through the process; now, I understand it. Fortunately, I got S to a PC before he got hurt from my well-intentioned involvement.

Goosegg posted:

Please, no one take offense, BUT FOR HS FRESHMAN AND YOUNGER, STOP THE VELO OBSESSION!

I can't count the number of young pitchers I have seen who are throwing beyond what their body is prepared to take - with the resulting career ending or career retarding injuries (needing TJ or labrum and taking a year off as a Jr. Is a disaster).

Building velo is a process - a long process with incremental or no improvement for periods following by noticeable increases (notable being 2 - 3 mph over a six month period). Many times it's because the growth spurt knocks the coordination off and NOTHING - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - a PC can do can override that; moreover, trying to can lead to disaster. During puberty, the body development mostly drives the improvement; but during that time, dialing in decent mechanics, getting the kid to feel his body (so he's not just mechanically going through the motions) is critical; during this period, doing the correct PT will build up the body so it's prepared for the day when all parts are reasonably mature and ready to rock and roll.

Pulling out a radar gun on these kids is lunacy - because the kid pitches to the gun, exerting more effort which doesn't get any real velo and can lead to injury.

Put another way, no college coach cares, no scout cares, about what a 15 year old throws. This is a marathon and all too many treat it as a sprint - and have their kid sprinting a marathon is a recipe for disaster.

As the parent of a kid whose life dream was advancing to baseball's next level, it was a process with no fairy dust leading to success; it was hard, hard work for a long, long time with small improvements with no shortcuts. 

PATIENCE!

Thank you, Goose! I was cringing when I read this thread!

I'm not gonna come on here and bash the "velo" contingency, but I guarantee our latin friends in the DR are not doing  the weighted balls, ect.

It's about continuing to improve and maturation has a funny way of helping out in the process.

Do I believe in functional strength?   Yes, add that with mobility, athleticism and solid mechanics for young high school players!

After the high school level, the competition could care less about velocity because they'll simply make adjustments!

"my son is 6'1" and a skinny 150"

My son weighed less than yours and looked like a string when he first hit 90mph.  So, gaining weight/strength won't hurt, but it's not the golden route to 85+.  Technique is almost everything.

Velocity opens doors.

Goosegg posted:

Put another way, no college coach cares, no scout cares, about what a 15 year old throws. This is a marathon and all too many treat it as a sprint - and have their kid sprinting a marathon is a recipe for disaster.

The amount of 2020/2019 commitments to colleges would indicate you are wrong.

kids grow at different ages you just never know,   1st rd pick of the Astros last yr was throwing low 70s as a freshman,  was hitting 97 last yr as a senior in high school.   so you just have to patient.  

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

Put another way, no college coach cares, no scout cares, about what a 15 year old throws. This is a marathon and all too many treat it as a sprint - and have their kid sprinting a marathon is a recipe for disaster.

The amount of 2020/2019 commitments to colleges would indicate you are wrong.

Not too many 2020's just yet and then 2020's that are showing committed are phenoms.  PG is showing a grand total of 303 commitments for 2019 and I would assume fewer than 50 are listed for 2020.  It seems like way too many "facts" are getting based on committing as a rising sophomore to a top 25 team (not even counting the Power 5 cellar dwellers).  Even if you construct your facts around the 50th percentile of D1 pitchers, Goosegg's comment has a lot of merit (even more if you substitute 14 yo).  The couple of 2019 pitcher commits were basically all 16 yo and up with one kid already 17 1/2.

2020Mom, my humble advice...

- Don't sweat it. Your son is in a rare demographic. He throws left, pitches, and is in the 99th percentile in height. That doesn't guarantee success, but it sure puts the odds in his favor. He's also very young compared to the kid he will be competing with in the 2020 college recruiting class. I would not rush him along. Make sure his conditioning is appropriate to his level of physical maturity.

- Take Goosegg up on his offer of a PM.

gunner34 posted:

My son has always been one of the hardest throwers in his age group,   he's thrown 82 recently as a 14 yr old 8th grader.   Our future high school pitching coach reached out to us when he heard we were going to attend his school next year and invited my son to do a weighted ball workout that he's been doing with his high school and travel team pitcher during the month of Dec and Jan.   Ill let you know how it goes,  its been tough to stay on program we seem to miss 1 or 2 day every week for 1 reason or another but I think its helping.   at a minimum it seems hes getting his arm in shape for the spring season about to start down here in Texas  like tomorrow.    It was interesting when coach pulled out the radar the other day and was getting times for every color ball the intensity really picked up.    Everyone complained of being sore the next day,  as an aside from a different thread I picked up a marc pro on ebay for about 1/2 cost of a new one and my son used it that night and was only kid the next day that was not sore.   

Manage your son closely... Coaches have good intentions but unless they're teaching the correct protocols and the player is following the protocol to the detail you can run into arm issues.  Whether it's weighted ball or bands.

Our club baseball program went big on the weighted ball program 2 years ago and disbanded it after only a year.  The reason: a few kids hurt their arms and they think it's because the kids started doing their own versions of the weighted ball program, and the program didn't want the risk.  Good intentions, but too many young kids without the maturity and discipline to follow the procedures, and they lacked the physical strength to put their bodies in the correct position to execttue the moves.  Our baseball program now focuses on dedicated strength training applicable for baseball and long toss.  A few of the kids that had success with the weighted ball program now do it as a supplement to their development at another facility where the pitching instructor is dialed into the protocols, arm care, and throwing is his thing (smaller version of Texas B. Ranch or Driveline).  

MidAtlanticDad posted:

2020Mom, my humble advice...

- Don't sweat it. Your son is in a rare demographic. He throws left, pitches, and is in the 99th percentile in height. That doesn't guarantee success, but it sure puts the odds in his favor. He's also very young compared to the kid he will be competing with in the 2020 college recruiting class. I would not rush him along. Make sure his conditioning is appropriate to his level of physical maturity.

- Take Goosegg up on his offer of a PM.

Concur.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Goosegg posted:

Put another way, no college coach cares, no scout cares, about what a 15 year old throws. This is a marathon and all too many treat it as a sprint - and have their kid sprinting a marathon is a recipe for disaster.

The amount of 2020/2019 commitments to colleges would indicate you are wrong.

Not too many 2020's just yet and then 2020's that are showing committed are phenoms.  PG is showing a grand total of 303 commitments for 2019 and I would assume fewer than 50 are listed for 2020.  It seems like way too many "facts" are getting based on committing as a rising sophomore to a top 25 team (not even counting the Power 5 cellar dwellers).  Even if you construct your facts around the 50th percentile of D1 pitchers, Goosegg's comment has a lot of merit (even more if you substitute 14 yo).  The couple of 2019 pitcher commits were basically all 16 yo and up with one kid already 17 1/2.

My son is a 2020, I know just locally more than 20 kids that have offers, and I don't know that many people.  It would appear to me that MANY offers are going out based on projection and people are being smart and saying "No, we aren't ready yet." 

If anyone wants to give the advice to take things slow, let the body progress naturally, don't base projections of what you think your kid will be doing in 12thgrade off of what he is doing in 9th grade... I am 100% good with that.  However, the idea that NO college coach cares what a 15 year old is throwing is false.  They have to care, it's their job to care.

The time is now.  Once you get to high school your time is running short quickly.  Now is when you should be asking the questions of what you have to do to get velocity up so that come junior year it IS up!  The great ones will already be offered to by then.  Many committed.  If you are not getting an offer as a freshman it tells you they do not consider you elite.  If you are not even getting mild interest it tells you they don't consider you at all!  Need to have some interest by end of sophomore year or you can definitely consider yourself behind the 8 ball.  Remember you might get one year of a huge jump, maybe 7 or 8mph.  Probably not two.  The rest of the way through hs you may get 2-3.  So if you are say 75 as a freshman...  Then 82 as a soph, 85 as a junior you are definitely on the bubble and definitely waiting til senior season - most spots are long since gone by then.  Now you are lowering your sights.  So NOW is the time to get those MPH!!

I don't know anything about pitching, never have and probably never will so I have no idea what it takes to gain velocity...but using weighted balls is liking throwing a curve ball from what I've heard.  If you do it right, probably not much of a risk but if you do it wrong, you might want to have Dr. Andrews number handy.   

SultanofSwat posted:

"my son is 6'1" and a skinny 150"

My son weighed less than yours and looked like a string when he first hit 90mph.  So, gaining weight/strength won't hurt, but it's not the golden route to 85+.  Technique is almost everything.

Velocity opens doors.

Likewise, my son was a true 6.0' and a skinny 145 and has always strove to be "bigger" (like when he was little after weighing in at the doctor's office at 43 lbs and telling the doctor of his goal . . . "I want to be 50 lbs.").  As a HS freshman he was sitting at 79-80 and touching 82 (and keep in mind, this wasn't throwing all out as hard as he could, but more like 90% to maintain command).  He got here because the year before we worked a lot on his mechanics and (in our case) never worked on strength and conditioning as I just felt it wasn't that important at that stage.  He was already VERY athletic and had a strong and flexible core.  His HS had a specified strength and conditioning facility and coaching that was mainly directed towards football, but baseball players would take part and later in HS my son got serious about that and the nutrition that needs to go along with it.  By his senior year he grew to 6'2" and 185 lbs and his pitching was sitting at 90 and touching 93.  

He was a two way player SS/RHP with most of his interest for playing SS.  He was recruited for both way and turned down a draft as a pitcher to play SS at dream school college.  As he entered college he felt his size still wasn't enough and he wanted to be "bigger", though he was touching 94 his college freshman year.  His body had matured  and as he increased his caloric intake and lots of strength and conditioning, height didn't increase but he got up to his goal of 205 lbs. in the sophomore year.  IMHO, I don't feel that weight was good for him and it seemed to slow his agility down a bit defensively sprinting wise and he has a hard time maintaining any weight over 200 lbs.

After listening to and speaking with Tom House at a baseball coaches convention, he inspired me to focus on my son's mechanics.  And I'm strongly convinced that mechanics/technique is indeed "almost everything" . . . particularly at these younger ages.  I believe focusing on it early certainly worked well for my son.

"The amount of 2020/2019 commitments to colleges would indicate you are wrong."

Did I miss that the NCAA now has NLI's for freshman or sophomores?

Do you understand what those early commitments are worth?

Many posters here have tried to explain how the system works; yet, you keep going to the same watering trough of looking at what A PLAYER does - not what THE SCHOOL does.

Let me put it this way: 2020A throws 85 at a showcase and a coach approaches his naive parents, throws an unenforceable offer in front of them, and gets a "comittment."  2020B is busy working on his mechanics and conditioning and has no idea what his velo is (but, let's say 72), and attends no showcases. Junior year arrives. 2020A is throwing 85 at his umpteenth showcase. 2020B shows up for the first time and throws 89.

What do you think happens? To the coaches it's a business, it's not personal. 

Stop living in fear that the train is leaving the station without your sons. While the coaches are indeed throwing "offers" around, each knows that the "offers" will only turn enforceable if the player appears to be able to contribute to the program. It's a brutal world for the kid who has been maneuvered out of his unenforceable offer - and coaches are experts at the maneuver. 

In other words, that early offer is meaningful ONLY if the player continues on the path the coach projected; if not, the player will be replaced by one who is on a path to help the program. So, if you want to push that kid who isn't physically ready, who doesn't have the proper mechanics, who gets injured because of all that, fine - one less player in the game of musical chairs.

As for attention from pro scouts, while I am at a HS game scouting a senior, yes, attention will be paid to an incredible underclassman. But all I do is write his name down and file it (along with the velo); the kid gets no credit for his FB velo - because it just doesn't matter until draft year. And, if he was 88 as a junior, he better be more than that as a senior.

Now, from all my posts, you do understand that I feel velo is king. But you can't get there without following a long, hard road which has no shortcuts and which cannot be forced.  All you can do is prepare the body for the time the entire chain is ready to come together - some parts of the chain can be worked on early (mechanics, PT, game IQ); other parts can't (growth, physical maturity). Forcing the issue doesn't move the goal closer - it may even foreclose the goal.

As always, the original question turns into an debate about another topic...Time to stop following this thread...

Goosegg posted:

"The amount of 2020/2019 commitments to colleges would indicate you are wrong."

Did I miss that the NCAA now has NLI's for freshman or sophomores?

Do you understand what those early commitments are worth?

Many posters here have tried to explain how the system works; yet, you keep going to the same watering trough of looking at what A PLAYER does - not what THE SCHOOL does.

Let me put it this way: 2020A throws 85 at a showcase and a coach approaches his naive parents, throws an unenforceable offer in front of them, and gets a "comittment."  2020B is busy working on his mechanics and conditioning and has no idea what his velo is (but, let's say 72), and attends no showcases. Junior year arrives. 2020A is throwing 85 at his umpteenth showcase. 2020B shows up for the first time and throws 89.

What do you think happens? To the coaches it's a business, it's not personal. 

Stop living in fear that the train is leaving the station without your sons. While the coaches are indeed throwing "offers" around, each knows that the "offers" will only turn enforceable if the player appears to be able to contribute to the program. It's a brutal world for the kid who has been maneuvered out of his unenforceable offer - and coaches are experts at the maneuver. 

In other words, that early offer is meaningful ONLY if the player continues on the path the coach projected; if not, the player will be replaced by one who is on a path to help the program. So, if you want to push that kid who isn't physically ready, who doesn't have the proper mechanics, who gets injured because of all that, fine - one less player in the game of musical chairs.

As for attention from pro scouts, while I am at a HS game scouting a senior, yes, attention will be paid to an incredible underclassman. But all I do is write his name down and file it (along with the velo); the kid gets no credit for his FB velo - because it just doesn't matter until draft year. And, if he was 88 as a junior, he better be more than that as a senior.

Now, from all my posts, you do understand that I feel velo is king. But you can't get there without following a long, hard road which has no shortcuts and which cannot be forced.  All you can do is prepare the body for the time the entire chain is ready to come together - some parts of the chain can be worked on early (mechanics, PT, game IQ); other parts can't (growth, physical maturity). Forcing the issue doesn't move the goal closer - it may even foreclose the goal.

I agree with everything you have said in THIS post.  I was pointing out the flaw in your previous post. 

College coaches do care what 15 year olds are throwing...not many 15 year olds... and if your 15 year old isn't throwing 80 that doesn't mean anything long term, and if your 15 year old IS throwing 90 again, that doesn't mean anything long term. 

I do understand what you are saying and agree with the principles you have stated, just not that ONE line.

"College coaches do care what 15 year olds are throwing...not many 15 year olds... and if your 15 year old isn't throwing 80 that doesn't mean anything long term, and if your 15 year old IS throwing 90 again, that doesn't mean anything long term."

No, college coaches have parents thinking they care. The coaches know that it's Kabuki theater, know it's illusory, and know that's how the recruiting game is currently played - and the parents and players are worse off for that.

Goosegg posted:

"Stop living in fear that the train is leaving the station without your sons. While the coaches are indeed throwing "offers" around, each knows that the "offers" will only turn enforceable if the player appears to be able to contribute to the program. It's a brutal world for the kid who has been maneuvered out of his unenforceable offer - and coaches are experts at the maneuver. 

Yo, i did that...folks, please listen...step away from the trough. 

As far as the Velo, big D1s didn't really pay attention to my undersized, "max effort" kid until he hit 90 consistently his Junior HS season. He had lived in the weight room for the previous 6 months and squatting became his 2nd love. It didn't hurt to have a + curveball. Otherwise, he was just another short RHP toiling away chasing the dream.Take care of his arm/health, research alot  and ask questions along the way. 

I wish you and your son much success.

I guess we all want to think our kid is "Elite" and wonder why he doesn't have an offer to the power 5 school in 8th grade.  Having been on here for several years now, I think the majority of kids are well outside that demographic.  Most people on here are here to help there kid play baseball as long as they can, where ever they can.  This gets back to the "dream school" discussion, early offers, and all the other things that go into this baseball recruiting world.  What is great about this site is that whatever level your kid is at and whatever level of "recruit" he may be, there is someone on here who has been there/done that.  It is really hard, but let the situation play out.  Get good coaching, work on mechanics, get stronger etc.  Control the things you can control and if all goes well, they can continue to play beyond high school if that is the dream.  For others it may be to just be part of the high school team.  Whatever the goal, enjoy the ride and try not to force it.  It really does go fast...

As I said, my son never used the weighted ball program, but someone earlier in this thread said their coach pulled out a radar gun had the kids throw weighted balls and everyone was sore the next day.  I've never heard of anyone using a gun with weighted balls. 

Buckeye 2015 posted:

As I said, my son never used the weighted ball program, but someone earlier in this thread said their coach pulled out a radar gun had the kids throw weighted balls and everyone was sore the next day.  I've never heard of anyone using a gun with weighted balls. 

Scary visual

Actually both Driveline and Baseball Ranch both use the gun with weighted balls.  I believe both overload and underloadRemember these programs are all about tracking and measuring progress.  There are lots of impacts on the athlete's mental game as well and progress tracking plays a big part here too.  

I've seen the impacts on my son physically, mentally, and pitch quality.  I'm a big believer. It will be the future IMO 

Tom House wrote about this once but anyone ever experience a difference with a bite guard in?  Our team did a throwing program (long toss and exercises) in the fall.  My son had picked up a little velocity (not much) but on the last, based on something I had read here I think, I  had him do one of this last throws with an under armour bite guard in and he threw  4-5 mph faster then repeated it 4 times in a rose.  Not sure if it was real or placebo but the coaches thought it was interesting. 

2020.2023dad posted:

Tom House wrote about this once but anyone ever experience a difference with a bite guard in?  Our team did a throwing program (long toss and exercises) in the fall.  My son had picked up a little velocity (not much) but on the last, based on something I had read here I think, I  had him do one of this last throws with an under armour bite guard in and he threw  4-5 mph faster then repeated it 4 times in a rose.  Not sure if it was real or placebo but the coaches thought it was interesting. 

For 4-5 mph I think my son would be willing to wear a full football helmet on the mound!

Did anyone else on the team try it?

2019Dad posted:

2020.2023dad posted:

Tom House wrote about this once but anyone ever experience a difference with a bite guard in?  Our team did a throwing program (long toss and exercises) in the fall.  My son had picked up a little velocity (not much) but on the last, based on something I had read here I think, I  had him do one of this last throws with an under armour bite guard in and he threw  4-5 mph faster then repeated it 4 times in a rose.  Not sure if it was real or placebo but the coaches thought it was interesting. 

For 4-5 mph I think my son would be willing to wear a full football helmet on the mound!

Did anyone else on the team try it?

One kid showed up with his football mouth guard for the next practice, but all they did was hitting..LOL.  We have been indoors not using radar guns since that day..it was the last practice.  I will say that my kid probably was finally feeling healthy on that day after a very long season where he pitched and caught  a ton.   Can't wait to try it again in the spring.  

Also note this is 2023 going from mid sixties to just under 70.  Not a HS age kid going from 86 to 90.  

We were using this..http://www.bpathletics.com/under-armour-ua-armourbite-multi-sport-lower-mouthguard/?gclid=CjwKEAiA2abEBRCdx7PqqunM1CYSJABf3qvaD9xYzELnc96bnTG-6DAVf5kllSH5Wg4NIaF8-vYW-RoCa-zw_wcB 

Lots of good advice in this thread.  FWIW, I echo the advice re Driveline...I'm a big Driveline fan (son has been up to 93mph/D1 commit/HS Jr.).  We've also done the Ranch.  Spot on re using the MarcPro for recovery too.   Again, a lot of good advice.  

Never heard of this but sounds interesting, i dont think my son would do it but im gonna ask him on his next bullpen. Driveline opinion below:

https://www.drivelinebaseball....e-fastball-velocity/

My son has not showcased and will not until he hits some numbers we have in mind that would make it worth it.  He is closing in on the hitting end not so much with pitch velocity.  We have yet to try driveline but seriously considering the $400 deal.  Given the amount we have spent over the years...  I will certainly ask him to throw with his football mouthpiece in - that's free, what is there to lose?  In short we are willing to try about anything or at least entertain it.  Not mechanically though we have to keep focused on improving  mechanics and don't want to keep changing every time some questionable expert suggests something.  My son has not been recruited and likely will have to sell himself more than be recruited.  Will have to convince some team he will be the good soldier at the end of the bullpen, work hard and be a good teammate.  However even that will not be possible without a velocity increase.  He pitched in 17 games last year about 13 being starts.  He lost only one.  The last game of the year when he was completely exhausted from football workouts.  He IS that guy many talk about.  The guy who doesn't walk people (except when maybe you should), is a student of the game, throws mulitple pitches effectively and gets a lot of ground balls - he is a pitcher not a thrower.  You know who cares about all that travel ball success?  Him, his coaches, teammates and sometimes me.  That's where the list ends.  No college coach cares how well he does.  We had a total of one guy talk to us last year when he was 14 and its really questionable how legitimate that was.  VELOCITY IS KING.  Don't ever doubt that.  And you can't sit around and wait for it to happen magically.  That's all we 2020ish crowd are saying.  Nobody is ready to jump off a bridge cause their son doesn't have an early offer.  Nobody is wigging out and we sure as heck aren't naive.  If you think you can sit around and wait for it to magically happen then you are naive.  Hope is not a plan.  I would encourage all parents of 8th graders and freshmen to get the kid to work.  You are laying the foundation now for the improvements that will get your kid recruited later.  Do not be deceived into believing you are some how out of control and should just sit back and wait.

Most velocity gains I'm guessing is attributed to growth spurts.  A 5'11 170lb kid is probably going to throw way harder than his former 5'2 120lb self.  I'm curious if any adult has ever tried a velocity program without a previous injury that increased their velocity?  

Not sure of any adults and I think one could debate when adult starts all day long.  

I agree that pre HS and for some kids even into HS they gain a lot of velocity simply through maturity. 

With that said there are lots of examples of post HS pitchers (college and pro) who gain velocity and some even significant amounts through hard work and specified training. 

2020dad posted:

My son has not showcased and will not until he hits some numbers we have in mind that would make it worth it.  He is closing in on the hitting end not so much with pitch velocity.  We have yet to try driveline but seriously considering the $400 deal.  Given the amount we have spent over the years...  I will certainly ask him to throw with his football mouthpiece in - that's free, what is there to lose?  In short we are willing to try about anything or at least entertain it.  Not mechanically though we have to keep focused on improving  mechanics and don't want to keep changing every time some questionable expert suggests something.  My son has not been recruited and likely will have to sell himself more than be recruited.  Will have to convince some team he will be the good soldier at the end of the bullpen, work hard and be a good teammate.  However even that will not be possible without a velocity increase.  He pitched in 17 games last year about 13 being starts.  He lost only one.  The last game of the year when he was completely exhausted from football workouts.  He IS that guy many talk about.  The guy who doesn't walk people (except when maybe you should), is a student of the game, throws mulitple pitches effectively and gets a lot of ground balls - he is a pitcher not a thrower.  You know who cares about all that travel ball success?  Him, his coaches, teammates and sometimes me.  That's where the list ends.  No college coach cares how well he does.  We had a total of one guy talk to us last year when he was 14 and its really questionable how legitimate that was.  VELOCITY IS KING.  Don't ever doubt that.  And you can't sit around and wait for it to happen magically.  That's all we 2020ish crowd are saying.  Nobody is ready to jump off a bridge cause their son doesn't have an early offer.  Nobody is wigging out and we sure as heck aren't naive.  If you think you can sit around and wait for it to magically happen then you are naive.  Hope is not a plan.  I would encourage all parents of 8th graders and freshmen to get the kid to work.  You are laying the foundation now for the improvements that will get your kid recruited later.  Do not be deceived into believing you are some how out of control and should just sit back and wait.

What was his velocity?  Aren't there pitchers in the Majors who aren't the fastest but have great movement?  I truly don't know the answer to that.

hsbaseball101 posted:

Most velocity gains I'm guessing is attributed to growth spurts.  A 5'11 170lb kid is probably going to throw way harder than his former 5'2 120lb self.  I'm curious if any adult has ever tried a velocity program without a previous injury that increased their velocity?  

I would echo that. My 2018,  has managed to sit where he topped the previous season with an average of 5lbs per year from Freshman to current Junior year at 6-2, 185.

Dadof3 posted:

2020dad posted:

My son has not showcased and will not until he hits some numbers we have in mind that would make it worth it.  He is closing in on the hitting end not so much with pitch velocity.  We have yet to try driveline but seriously considering the $400 deal.  Given the amount we have spent over the years...  I will certainly ask him to throw with his football mouthpiece in - that's free, what is there to lose?  In short we are willing to try about anything or at least entertain it.  Not mechanically though we have to keep focused on improving  mechanics and don't want to keep changing every time some questionable expert suggests something.  My son has not been recruited and likely will have to sell himself more than be recruited.  Will have to convince some team he will be the good soldier at the end of the bullpen, work hard and be a good teammate.  However even that will not be possible without a velocity increase.  He pitched in 17 games last year about 13 being starts.  He lost only one.  The last game of the year when he was completely exhausted from football workouts.  He IS that guy many talk about.  The guy who doesn't walk people (except when maybe you should), is a student of the game, throws mulitple pitches effectively and gets a lot of ground balls - he is a pitcher not a thrower.  You know who cares about all that travel ball success?  Him, his coaches, teammates and sometimes me.  That's where the list ends.  No college coach cares how well he does.  We had a total of one guy talk to us last year when he was 14 and its really questionable how legitimate that was.  VELOCITY IS KING.  Don't ever doubt that.  And you can't sit around and wait for it to happen magically.  That's all we 2020ish crowd are saying.  Nobody is ready to jump off a bridge cause their son doesn't have an early offer.  Nobody is wigging out and we sure as heck aren't naive.  If you think you can sit around and wait for it to magically happen then you are naive.  Hope is not a plan.  I would encourage all parents of 8th graders and freshmen to get the kid to work.  You are laying the foundation now for the improvements that will get your kid recruited later.  Do not be deceived into believing you are some how out of control and should just sit back and wait.

What was his velocity?  Aren't there pitchers in the Majors who aren't the fastest but have great movement?  I truly don't know the answer to that.

Dadof3 my observations, which should NOT be taken as fact, is that there are some MLB pitchers that hang out around the 88-92mph mark, and they do have deceptive movement, but they once upon a time threw a magic number to get them in the door, and that number isn't 85mph.  

There have been many stories on here about two pitchers.  One is crafty, lots of movement and can hit his spots, he peaks at 85mph.  Another pitcher is fairly wild, not always sure where his pitches will land, but he throws 92.  The 92 guy will be drafted higher and more sought after because many coaches have the belief that you can TEACH crafty...you can't TEACH 92.

 

The 92 guy will be drafted higher and more sought after because many coaches have the belief that you can TEACH crafty...you can't TEACH 92.

Respectfully disagree. We all read about guys on here who either through tweaking of mechanics or weighted baseballs or just plain working out/aging add speed to that fastball. I believe you can "teach 92" because it happens every year.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Never heard of this but sounds interesting, i dont think my son would do it but im gonna ask him on his next bullpen. Driveline opinion below:

https://www.drivelinebaseball....e-fastball-velocity/

 

In pro ball many pitchers use mouthguards.

Got to cut out the whoa is me stuff because no one is going to recruit anyone's kid when their folks have that attitude.

justbaseball hasn't been around in a while, but as some are aware, he has 2 sons in professional ball.  You all should check out Tyler Davis, attended Washington State.

Tyler has 15 major accomplishments as a college player in his bio.

Did I mention that he didn't really add on velo until after he was drafted? I don't remember him hitting anywhere close to 90 out of HS, yet he was given a scholarship at a PAC 12 program.

Stop worrying about the velo, the height, the weight, do well in school, doors will open.

Most 9th graders unless they are studs, DO NOT GET RECRUITED.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

 

The 92 guy will be drafted higher and more sought after because many coaches have the belief that you can TEACH crafty...you can't TEACH 92.

Respectfully disagree. We all read about guys on here who either through tweaking of mechanics or weighted baseballs or just plain working out/aging add speed to that fastball. I believe you can "teach 92" because it happens every year.

It happens but it also depends on the body. Not everyone can gain the same.

A super lanky 6“4 guy who thows 85 might still get interest

Dominik85 posted:

A super lanky 6“4 guy who thows 85 might still get interest

PLENTY of bigger, lower velo guys get attention, sign Power 5 D1 and/or get drafted. Even RHPs. You've heard it here, pro ball can develop players and college usually prefers to have kids who can contribute sooner. Plenty of D1s have pitchers who may touch 90 but live below it and there are plenty from either side that are 85-88 and throw 4 pitches for strikes. 

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Dominik85 posted:

A super lanky 6“4 guy who thows 85 might still get interest

PLENTY of bigger, lower velo guys get attention, sign Power 5 D1 and/or get drafted. Even RHPs. You've heard it here, pro ball can develop players and college usually prefers to have kids who can contribute sooner. Plenty of D1s have pitchers who may touch 90 but live below it and there are plenty from either side that are 85-88 and throw 4 pitches for strikes. 

Preach!!!

Dadof3 posted:

2020dad posted:

My son has not showcased and will not until he hits some numbers we have in mind that would make it worth it.  He is closing in on the hitting end not so much with pitch velocity.  We have yet to try driveline but seriously considering the $400 deal.  Given the amount we have spent over the years...  I will certainly ask him to throw with his football mouthpiece in - that's free, what is there to lose?  In short we are willing to try about anything or at least entertain it.  Not mechanically though we have to keep focused on improving  mechanics and don't want to keep changing every time some questionable expert suggests something.  My son has not been recruited and likely will have to sell himself more than be recruited.  Will have to convince some team he will be the good soldier at the end of the bullpen, work hard and be a good teammate.  However even that will not be possible without a velocity increase.  He pitched in 17 games last year about 13 being starts.  He lost only one.  The last game of the year when he was completely exhausted from football workouts.  He IS that guy many talk about.  The guy who doesn't walk people (except when maybe you should), is a student of the game, throws mulitple pitches effectively and gets a lot of ground balls - he is a pitcher not a thrower.  You know who cares about all that travel ball success?  Him, his coaches, teammates and sometimes me.  That's where the list ends.  No college coach cares how well he does.  We had a total of one guy talk to us last year when he was 14 and its really questionable how legitimate that was.  VELOCITY IS KING.  Don't ever doubt that.  And you can't sit around and wait for it to happen magically.  That's all we 2020ish crowd are saying.  Nobody is ready to jump off a bridge cause their son doesn't have an early offer.  Nobody is wigging out and we sure as heck aren't naive.  If you think you can sit around and wait for it to magically happen then you are naive.  Hope is not a plan.  I would encourage all parents of 8th graders and freshmen to get the kid to work.  You are laying the foundation now for the improvements that will get your kid recruited later.  Do not be deceived into believing you are some how out of control and should just sit back and wait.

What was his velocity?  Aren't there pitchers in the Majors who aren't the fastest but have great movement?  I truly don't know the answer to that.

What is my son's velocity?  You can PM me.  It's not good.  If I wanted it advertised we would showcase!!  If you look up what is average at PG events for his age it is almost on the nose.  As for MLB...  what passes for slow is really really fast.  A guy who tops at 92 or 93 is considered that crafty pitcher.  Even Mark Buhrle topped at 92 or 93 (maybe not his last couple years) but CHOSE to throw in the 80's and let his cutter and curve work.  But when he needed to he could reach back and get that 92 which at that point looked like 97.  I think the list of guys who could not hit 90 ever who reached the major leagues could be counted on one hand.  Not even 100% sure there are any.  Great movement wins lower level games.  Maybe even college games, certainly lower level college games.  MLB?  Not so much.  

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Dominik85 posted:

A super lanky 6“4 guy who thows 85 might still get interest

PLENTY of bigger, lower velo guys get attention, sign Power 5 D1 and/or get drafted. Even RHPs. You've heard it here, pro ball can develop players and college usually prefers to have kids who can contribute sooner. Plenty of D1s have pitchers who may touch 90 but live below it and there are plenty from either side that are 85-88 and throw 4 pitches for strikes. 

We need to separate college from MLB.  This is 100% true.  There are a bunch of guys even D1 who aren't even capable of hitting 90.  I have said a million times on here it is a complete and total myth that everyone in D1 throws 90.  And 85 or 86 is that number I have said many times can get you there.  Not gonna pitch on sunday for a power 5 probably but some mid to low D1 will pick you up for sure if you are 85 and great pitchability.  

2020 you are confusing cruising and touching.  Touching 85 is not gonna get many people to D1.  PG listings are 'touching'.

SultanofSwat posted:

2020 you are confusing cruising and touching.  Touching 85 is not gonna get many people to D1.  PG listings are 'touching'.

Not confusing it at all.  I am a research nut.  Way over analytical as anyone who knows me can tell you.  Now I am talking about what it takes to get in - not what the finished product looks like as a junior in college.  I am looking at the perspective of what it takes to get a roster spot at a D1.  Now most kids still gain some velo in college.  So I am talking about topping 85 or 86 in high school and getting your foot in the door.  And if you take college rosters (not top 25 type schools obviously) and look at what they topped on PG or PBR in high school you will find plenty of evidence to support my claim.

P.S. I will go one step further, when you get to mid and certainly lower D1 a lot of those kids don't even have PG or PBR profiles, never showcased apparently.  Now how many kids who have NEVER showcased do you think are throwing say 86+?  Some no doubt.  Probably some outliers out there who are 90+ and never showcased but they are rare.  Most of those kids without profiles are probably low 80's.

Son's school is top 40, consistent Regional participant as of late and from what I have seen it would support 2020dad. 

Most guys in first two scrimmages of spring topping over 90 but lots of those guys showed up as freshman topping 85-86.  

Son's school very much known for development and they are confident in their methods so maybe they are an outlier but 85-86 out of lots of body types can become 90+ with the right training IMO

I don't disagree that 86 will get your foot in the door at a mid to lower D1 assuming you can pitch.  Also, when you are touching 86, you need to be sitting not too far below that figure - say 83-84 and not 80-81.  Most of these "top" speeds are probably getting measured the summer as a rising senior so there is still a good 12 months before the kid would set foot on campus and maybe 30 months before a kid would be expected to step up as a starter (spring of sophomore season).  My take is that 90 is great (sitting 90 is better), but you don't  have to hit that magic number to get to "D1" or any other classification.  At some level, you might be able to have 90 as a requirement, but I doubt even SEC baseball requires 90 for every pitcher that makes the roster (although I'm confident that 80%+ are throwing 90+ mph).  Seems much discussion on this board starts to migrate to the level where you can secure a 50% scholarship to a top 50 program and not the 25% scholarship (the minimum) to a top 300 D1 program (actually I think it is 301 total D1 programs).

Ok, update...  Just looked at our only D1 in wisconsin, UWM.  12 RHP (left lefties out to avoid crafty lefty conversation) on the roster.  Four had no profiles at all they were 6-2, 6-4 and two at 6-5.  Their tallest pitchers!!  Taking a flyer on projectability?  That's my guess.  If you are 6-5 and throwing 88 in high school you showcase.  Lets be reasonable and agree that at least three of those four were mid 80's possibly below.  The other 8 were 6-0, 6-1, 6-2 (4), 6-3 and 6-4.  Velocities: 90, 89 (3), 88, 87, 86 (2).  UWM if you look them up has recently been almost smack dab middle of the pack D1.  So they have only one rostered pitcher who touched 90 as a high school senior.  One.  Counting the no profile kids I am just going to say 6 at 86 and below.  Zero ABOVE 90.  Imagine the bottom 25 of D1...  Fact of the matter is some people for some mysterious reason want to keep perpetuating this myth that you have to be 90+ to even get on a roster.  Or you better be 'special'.  That's not true either.  You have to be good, not special.  And more important someone who will not cause problems academically or as a teammate.  Those are the kids they take flyers on: big, good academically and a great teammate.  I don't want to start the size debate again but as you can see size does matter at least in the eyes of the coaches.  They ain't taking flyers on the 5'10 kid throwing 84.  But as we can see there are four big kids on the roster who have no profiles and presumably are projects.

Totally agree with backstop and screwball.  In the long run I am of course concerned with one kid mainly, my own!  Our goal will remain 85.  For him that will take some doing, not gonna come by wishing.  But I think its at least possible.  Given his size I think that will get him in the door.  Then its up to him to work and develop to actually get innings.  Now the question may become how many football programs would let him be a PO in college?  Anyone have insights on that?

All those that top out in the mid 80s are not equal.  Perhaps another way to look at it is to figure out how many 90+ are not recruited by DI colleges? How many mid 80s are not recruited by DI colleges? So academics not considered, pretty much all the 90 guys will get DI offers.  Most of the mid 80s guys will not get a DI offer, but many will.

Also keep in mind when we see a DI pitcher topping out at 86, it doesn't mean that is all he is capable of.  Often pitchers throw below their max velocity in order to gain command and movement.  So there are college pitchers throwing in the mid to upper 80s that we saw throw 90 or better while they were in HS.  The more velocity a pitcher can throw, the more room he has to subtract and improve in other areas.  The less velocity a pitcher can throw, subtraction can have a negative affect.  The guy with great velocity simply has much more to work with.  Doesn't mean the mid 80s guy can't be successful.

PGStaff posted:

All those that top out in the mid 80s are not equal.  Perhaps another way to look at it is to figure out how many 90+ are not recruited by DI colleges? How many mid 80s are not recruited by DI colleges? So academics not considered, pretty much all the 90 guys will get DI offers.  Most of the mid 80s guys will not get a DI offer, but many will.

Also keep in mind when we see a DI pitcher topping out at 86, it doesn't mean that is all he is capable of.  Often pitchers throw below their max velocity in order to gain command and movement.  So there are college pitchers throwing in the mid to upper 80s that we saw throw 90 or better while they were in HS.  The more velocity a pitcher can throw, the more room he has to subtract and improve in other areas.  The less velocity a pitcher can throw, subtraction can have a negative affect.  The guy with great velocity simply has much more to work with.  Doesn't mean the mid 80s guy can't be successful.

PG would you mind clarifying a couple things?  First when you say 'offer' do you mean scholarship or just any roster spot?  And what is it you see as the differentiating factors for the glut of mid 80's guys?  Projectability is #1 I would guess, simply don't see a lot of short guys throwing mid 80's going D1.  But what comes next?  Do you think spin rate is on the near horizon?  I would love to hear what you see as far as what they are looking for or maybe more appropriately for the last few spots on the staff what they are willing to accept.

Unbelievable how we went from rarely any HS kids hitting 90mph 20 years ago to what it is today.  Back then if you threw 90 you were considered a phenom.  Ryan Mills threw low to mid 80s as a senior, touched 90 once (after impromptu weighted ball training) in front of scouts and got drafted in the 13th round by the Yankees in '95.  Ended up throwing 95 in college and got drafted #6 by the Twins.  Nagging Injuries and I believe a refusal to have TJ surgery (which at the time was extremely controversial and damaging to your reputation) shortened his career.  

2020Dad, you might find this worthwhile: http://community.hsbaseballweb...r-at-certain-schools

All the velos listed were summer before senior year, or senior fall (unless the kid had a higher velocity from a prior time period, in which case i Used the higher velo). It's my only useful contribution to this community!

In my mind, in considering what is a viable option for my son, I discount the lowest one or two kids at any particular school, because who knows what special circumstances led to the kid being on the roster? Sort of, "aim for the middle of the fairway." 

My '18 RHP/OF is a very low mileage pitcher, used as a closer to date and would get an average of 20-30 pitches per weekend and had one start in summer ball with 10 weekends  (50 games for the season). He played in 28 high school games last spring with 11 total innings.  Last summer he was 86-88 and touched 90 several times in August.

He chose to take a different approach as he had ZERO interest. Last August, he dropped fall ball in lieu of working out to gain functional strength and mobility, three days a week. He didn't touch a ball from August to the third week of December. He followed the advice of his pitching coach, play less ball and train in the fall. It's better to show improvement instead of coming out the following spring  showing the same thing.

 Oh, for those guy's that look for the phone to ring on September  1............ it didn't happen.

He began throwing the third week of December, a couple weeks ago hits 93 throwing flat grounds. He's thrown a total of two, 20 pitch pens in the last week. He sat 89-90 and ran it up to 92. No weighted balls were used, just a lot of sled pushing, trap bars and Bulgarian split squats...........

I tell you all of this because it doesn't matter what your velocity is, until it's in front of the right person that wants your player!

Yes, he is going to do his first PG event at the end of February and his summer team was accepted to play at WWBA, Thank you Jerry!

PGStaff posted:

 The guy with great velocity simply has much more to work with.  Doesn't mean the mid 80s guy can't be successful.

Fact, it's the difference between having electric stuff and being a guy.

My '18 RHP/OF is a very low mileage pitcher, used as a closer to date and would get an average of 20-30 pitches per weekend and had one start in summer ball with 10 weekends  (50 games for the season). He played in 28 high school games last spring with 11 total innings.  Last summer he was 86-88 and touched 90 several times in August.

What were the starters throwing during high school?

2017LHPscrewball posted:

My '18 RHP/OF is a very low mileage pitcher, used as a closer to date and would get an average of 20-30 pitches per weekend and had one start in summer ball with 10 weekends  (50 games for the season). He played in 28 high school games last spring with 11 total innings.  Last summer he was 86-88 and touched 90 several times in August.

What were the starters throwing during high school?

His varsity team was comprised of 17 seniors, many of whom pitched. 5 went on to JUCO, the top was a LHP (84-86). That being said, 9 juniors also cycled through from jv in order to obtain a varsity letter to wear their senior year. He was the only underclassman that played all spring at the varsity level.  

Backpick25 posted:

He followed the advice of his pitching coach, play less ball and train in the fall..... It's better to show improvement instead of coming out the following spring  showing the same thing.

Truer words were never spoken on this site.  

to answer an earlier question...

An offer in our world involves a scholarship of some type.  But it could be a preferred walk on offer as well. I keep hearing about these guaranteed roster spots but don't really consider that an offer.  They are often used by colleges that are extremely expensive and that aren't very competitive. Getting a good student that can pay for college is more important than getting a good player at some colleges.

If we watched 20 mid 80s pitchers, there would always be a couple that really stood out.  It could be because of size, body type, and projection, but not always.  Sometimes a pitcher will just have the ability to locate with movement.  Sometimes the breaking ball and changeup are way ahead of the other mid 80s guys.  I always favor the quick arm guys over the better leverage stronger but slower arm guys. and yes, Trackman stats are becoming more important every year. Sometimes you see a fixable mechanical flaw that if corrected could lead to much more velocity. You see the demeanor, you see the competitor, you see that no fear look. Truth is, I've seen some mid 80s pitchers I like a lot more than some 90 MPH guys. But in the end your thinking that mid 80s guy is going to gain a lot of velocity.

So we know that all 90 mph pitchers aren't the same.

All 95 mph pitchers aren't the same.

So how do we lump all 80 mph or 85 mph pitchers together,  There can be a world of difference from one to another.

I always wonder about the term "quick arm" or "fast arm" . . . can anyone explain what this means, or point to examples?

Sorry for the hijack off velocity...This is in reply to PG's comments about "guaranteed roster spots".  I will respectfully disagree as the father of two college ballplayers who held "offers" at D1, D2, and D3. 

The notion that guaranteed roster spots are "often used by colleges that are extremely expensive and not very competitive" and that this is somehow not an offer is wrong IMHO.  They can be expensive and non-competitive schools or they could be inexpensive and highly competitive in my experience.

Guaranteed Spring roster spots are used by many colleges and by every college type from JuCo to D1.  Competitive or not competitive.  Expensive or inexpensive.  It's all some schools have to "offer" players they really want.

At D3, there are no athletic scholarships.  So the idea that an offer has to include a scholarship of some type is not true.  Plenty of posters here have kids who had D3 "offers" of this type, i.e., a guaranteed Spring roster spot for their Freshman year.  They would not be cut in a Fall tryout.  They would be on the roster for their first Spring and then would have to compete for playing time just like everybody else.

Perhaps PG is talking about only fully funded D1 or D2 programs?  At D1 or D2 not all programs are fully funded of course.  One of my kids held numerous D1 and D2 "offers" at schools that weren't very expensive at all, but were all highly competitive and Top 35 contenders.  Not all the offers had money...they ranged from 85% to zero.

My local D2 is a very strong program and inexpensive.  They have essentially no scholarship money.  They had over 90 players, most "recruited", to come out for their Fall.  They'll be at 40 or less roster spots this weekend for the opener.  If my son were "recruited" at this school, I'd want him to have a guaranteed Spring roster spot.  That's what this school can "offer". 

I think we sometimes get caught up in the whole "gotta hit 90" thing. In truth, there are a lot of D1 programs and not so many 90mph throwers that every school has a abundance of them. We visited two Mid-majors this weekend and watched their scrimmages. They are basically a week away from their first game. Both schools had radar displays. At school one, we didn't see their #1, but did see their #2 - #5 pitchers. None hit 90. Two of them, one a lefty, sat 82-83 and hit 85 a couple of times. The others all sat at around 85 and only a couple of them topped out at 87 and only a couple times each at that.

At school two, their #1 was a lefty sitting 90 and topping out at 92. This guy was the A-Sun pitcher of the year in 2016. However, the #2 was sitting 85, topping out at 87 twice over two innings and this guy was the pitcher of the year in the Cape Cod league last summer. He had great stuff and a very quick arm, but not a 90mph guy. The other pitchers, all freshmen and sophomores sat low-80's. 

After spreading them out over almost 300 D-1 schools, there aren't as many guys throwing 90 as you think. You can be a good D-1 pitcher without throwing 90+. 

roothog66 posted:

I think we sometimes get caught up in the whole "gotta hit 90" thing. In truth, there are a lot of D1 programs and not so many 90mph throwers that every school has a abundance of them. We visited two Mid-majors this weekend and watched their scrimmages. They are basically a week away from their first game. Both schools had radar displays. At school one, we didn't see their #1, but did see their #2 - #5 pitchers. None hit 90. Two of them, one a lefty, sat 82-83 and hit 85 a couple of times. The others all sat at around 85 and only a couple of them topped out at 87 and only a couple times each at that.

At school two, their #1 was a lefty sitting 90 and topping out at 92. This guy was the A-Sun pitcher of the year in 2016. However, the #2 was sitting 85, topping out at 87 twice over two innings and this guy was the pitcher of the year in the Cape Cod league last summer. He had great stuff and a very quick arm, but not a 90mph guy. The other pitchers, all freshmen and sophomores sat low-80's. 

After spreading them out over almost 300 D-1 schools, there aren't as many guys throwing 90 as you think. You can be a good D-1 pitcher without throwing 90+. 

This time of year you won't see a lot of guys throwing their best stuff.  And you and Shoveit4Ks are right, there aren't that many 90 guys across the board.

PG as always hit the nail on the head.

roothog66 posted:

I think we sometimes get caught up in the whole "gotta hit 90" thing. In truth, there are a lot of D1 programs and not so many 90mph throwers that every school has a abundance of them. We visited two Mid-majors this weekend and watched their scrimmages. They are basically a week away from their first game. Both schools had radar displays. At school one, we didn't see their #1, but did see their #2 - #5 pitchers. None hit 90. Two of them, one a lefty, sat 82-83 and hit 85 a couple of times. The others all sat at around 85 and only a couple of them topped out at 87 and only a couple times each at that.

At school two, their #1 was a lefty sitting 90 and topping out at 92. This guy was the A-Sun pitcher of the year in 2016. However, the #2 was sitting 85, topping out at 87 twice over two innings and this guy was the pitcher of the year in the Cape Cod league last summer. He had great stuff and a very quick arm, but not a 90mph guy. The other pitchers, all freshmen and sophomores sat low-80's. 

After spreading them out over almost 300 D-1 schools, there aren't as many guys throwing 90 as you think. You can be a good D-1 pitcher without throwing 90+. 

I agree and would like to add, in my experience, while watching my "in state" SEC program go toe to toe with a top SEC program last season,  the difference was the in state had 3-90+ guys and the rest of the staff was 85-88 on average,  where the top program seemed to run freshman after freshman that were all mid 90 guys and never got to the starters.

I probably shouldn't have said what I did about guaranteed roster spots.  I just don't know how a competitive program can honestly do that.  I coached small college baseball for several years and never, not once, ever guaranteed a roster spot or anything else.  If someone I wasn't recruiting asked for one, I wouldn't even want that player.  How much confidence does a player have if he needs a guaranteed roster spot.  What if I guaranteed a roster spot to someone that became a cancer to the team?

Problem is, that is how I look at it and should know better that some might go about things much differently. So I'm sure there are some coaches that guarantee roster spots rather than have players earn it. Though I guess if a kid that was so good that I definitely wanted him and was only asking me to guarantee him a roster spot, I would have done that. Never remember anyone we were recruiting ever asking for any guarantees.  Then again maybe they did and it went in one ear and out the other.  When we really wanted someone, we would work with admissions, find grants and non athletic money, put together an offer, do everything possible to get him, so it was obvious he was going to at the very least be on the roster. But I wouldn't expect him to ask for a guaranteed spot and would hope he wants much more than a guaranteed roster spot.

2020Mom posted:

... I have read about the Driveline program where they use weighted balls and have heard differing opinions.  Any experience with any of your kids doing this and if so, at what age?  Other ideas or ways you know pitchers have increased velocity? ...

I am a very strong booster of the Driveline Program. My son was a devoted participant in Kyle's early iterations of the program, beginning his 13U summer when coming back from a "Little League" elbow case. He stayed with it through high school and was an extremely effective pitcher in HS. He was up to 87 off the mound by mid Senior season at (then) 5'7" 160 and surrendered one ER in his last HS season. His bat and speed got him recruited as a CF, but he still uses some of the Driveline concepts and is a +arm in the OF.

That said, and in answering your second question: the single best thing a developing HS-aged player can do for any aspect of their athletic performance, including throwing velocity, is lift heavy, correctly, under authentic supervision. Heavy is self explanatory. But lifting correctly while receiving real guidance on form, movement, and progression cannot be had just anywhere or from anyone selling memberships at the local big box gym. Add the benefits of a fully-researched, iterative throwing program and the results are synergistic.

TPM posted:

justbaseball hasn't been around in a while, but as some are aware, he has 2 sons in professional ball.  You all should check out Tyler Davis, attended Washington State.

 

University of Washington. Confusing the two is somewhat like confusing Wake and Clemson. 

PG,

I have great respect for your input and experiences.  I will respectfully add my two cents again around guaranteed roster spots...

My boys want to be starters on their teams.  Not roster spot holders. 

At no time did we encounter a coach who committed to my boys any playing time or position, only a chance to compete for such in the Spring.  Every coach that offered a guaranteed Spring roster spot did that conditionally, i.e., for the first Spring only, and presuming appropriate academic, athletic and off the field behavior. 

And the coaches that offered scholarships, or preferred walk on status, or guaranteed Spring roster spots, etc., did so after seeing my boys play, i.e., the kids "earned" it during the recruiting process.  And yes, it could be taken away if the players don't do the appropriate academic, athletic, and off the field work.

We did encounter many coaches recruiting kids for Fall rosters and Fall tryouts.  My boys received recruiting phone calls, emails, texts, etc., from coaches as did my boys' peers.  Some coaches were transparent about this.  Some weren't.  Ultimately just recruiting them to come to college to tryout in the Fall.  We certainly had coaches ask my boys "are you afraid of competition?".

My boys aren't afraid of competition.  They just want to play college baseball at a school that fits academically and athletically.

IMHO, if a coach is actively recruiting a player, that should be for the first Spring roster.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If a player is not recruited and just goes to an open Fall tryout, then let the chips fall where they may.

Recruiting players for a Fall roster only and Fall tryout is fine by me if the coach is 100% transparent that they are doing this.  As I mentioned, our local D2 had over 90 players out this Fall.  Most, but not all, of these players had been recruited by the coaching staff.

Some coaches are incented by admissions to bring as many kids as possible in the door.  Some coaches don't want to make any commitments until after everyone tries out in the Fall. Understanding that as a prospective college player / parent is a very important part of the process IMO.

tres_arboles posted:

TPM posted:

justbaseball hasn't been around in a while, but as some are aware, he has 2 sons in professional ball.  You all should check out Tyler Davis, attended Washington State.

 

University of Washington. Confusing the two is somewhat like confusing Wake and Clemson. 

You are right, lost my mind posting so late at night!  

No confusion distinguishing between wake and clemson!

I thought the confusion was SC and Clemson

or maybe ut and TAMU

or maybe Miss State and UM

RedFishFool posted:

I thought the confusion was SC and Clemson

or maybe ut and TAMU

or maybe Miss State and UM

 

 

Only a "furriner" could confuse USuCk (aka South Carolina) and Clemson.  ;-)

2019Dad posted:

I always wonder about the term "quick arm" or "fast arm" . . . can anyone explain what this means, or point to examples?

Son has one and he is fast twitch. Explosive to the plate as soon as you start your hips. Explosive in the flexibility in the hips/shoulders as well. When you see it, you know it. 

RedFishFool posted:

 

or maybe Miss State and UM

... and which one is Ole Miss again???  

RedFishFool posted:

 

or maybe Miss State and UM

 

 

Righttttttt.......

MTH posted:

RedFishFool posted:

I thought the confusion was SC and Clemson

or maybe ut and TAMU

or maybe Miss State and UM

 

 

Only a "furriner" could confuse USuCk (aka South Carolina) and Clemson.  ;-)

I grew up in SC and you just gave me childhood flashbacks. :-)

tres_arboles posted:

2020Mom posted:

... I have read about the Driveline program where they use weighted balls and have heard differing opinions.  Any experience with any of your kids doing this and if so, at what age?  Other ideas or ways you know pitchers have increased velocity? ...

I am a very strong booster of the Driveline Program. My son was a devoted participant in Kyle's early iterations of the program, beginning his 13U summer when coming back from a "Little League" elbow case. He stayed with it through high school and was an extremely effective pitcher in HS. He was up to 87 off the mound by mid Senior season at (then) 5'7" 160 and surrendered one ER in his last HS season. His bat and speed got him recruited as a CF, but he still uses some of the Driveline concepts and is a +arm in the OF.

That said, and in answering your second question: the single best thing a developing HS-aged player can do for any aspect of their athletic performance, including throwing velocity, is lift heavy, correctly, under authentic supervision. Heavy is self explanatory. But lifting correctly while receiving real guidance on form, movement, and progression cannot be had just anywhere or from anyone selling memberships at the local big box gym. Add the benefits of a fully-researched, iterative throwing program and the results are synergistic.

I put up 895lbs in the big 3 lifts.  Let's just say I never got anywhere close to mid 80s.  My friends could barely curl 20lbs yet touched mid 80s.  Go figure.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

tres_arboles posted:

2020Mom posted:

... I have read about the Driveline program where they use weighted balls and have heard differing opinions.  Any experience with any of your kids doing this and if so, at what age?  Other ideas or ways you know pitchers have increased velocity? ...

I am a very strong booster of the Driveline Program. My son was a devoted participant in Kyle's early iterations of the program, beginning his 13U summer when coming back from a "Little League" elbow case. He stayed with it through high school and was an extremely effective pitcher in HS. He was up to 87 off the mound by mid Senior season at (then) 5'7" 160 and surrendered one ER in his last HS season. His bat and speed got him recruited as a CF, but he still uses some of the Driveline concepts and is a +arm in the OF.

That said, and in answering your second question: the single best thing a developing HS-aged player can do for any aspect of their athletic performance, including throwing velocity, is lift heavy, correctly, under authentic supervision. Heavy is self explanatory. But lifting correctly while receiving real guidance on form, movement, and progression cannot be had just anywhere or from anyone selling memberships at the local big box gym. Add the benefits of a fully-researched, iterative throwing program and the results are synergistic.

I put up 895lbs in the big 3 lifts.  Let's just say I never got anywhere close to mid 80s.  My friends could barely curl 20lbs yet touched mid 80s.  Go figure.  

Yeah, I've always looked at weight lifting as something that can help some pitchers, but not a guarantee. My 2018 started lifting weights early first semester, but an injury put a halt to that. So, basically, other than that one week, he's never lifted. The write ups on him always include "big, strong build." He is 6' 4" / 225 (was 235). He has huge arms and legs. Looks like he could lift a barn. However, in reality, he maxes out benching 120 lbs. with effort and only benches around 200 lb. max. He took the mound last night for the first time since Labor Day and hit 92 mph. So, you can either say he didn't need weight training or he would have hit a 100 if he'd bulked up.

Branson,

I understand and I wasn't referring to your boys.  I even know that some kids are guaranteed a roster spot by some college coaches.  For those coaches that has worked out well for... Fine.  

I get it... The kid knows he is getting a chance.  I could guarantee that every kid will get a chance.  Not sure why anyone needs to guarantee more than that, though I know some do.

I stand by what I mentioned earlier regarding guaranteed roster spots. Maybe not in every case, but I know there are some college coaches that have to reach a quota.  Enrollment is the thing, baseball brings them students.  I couldn't coach at one of those type colleges, but I don't really see anything wrong with it either.

Truth is, there is nothing wrong with roster spots being guaranteed. At DI I can't imagine it happening, but guess it could.  Anyway, if it happens and it works out well, good enough.  But what exactly does a guaranteed roster spot really mean?  Is it spelled out in writing?

I have to admit, I know very little about guaranteed roster spots.  I have no experience with that.  I only know it happens, but there are players with baseball scholarships that sometimes don't make the roster.  Anyway, if it sounds like I'm arguing, I'm not.  I'm sure you know much more than I do about guaranteed roster spots.  All I have is an opinion on the subject.

There are D1 schools (mainly private) who have generous institional merit or need based aid for the right student. I have seen it not unusual for them to offer roster spots in lieu of scholarship money that they would normally offer. All about stretching those 11.7 as far as possible. 

tres_arboles posted:

2020Mom posted:

... I have read about the Driveline program where they use weighted balls and have heard differing opinions.  Any experience with any of your kids doing this and if so, at what age?  Other ideas or ways you know pitchers have increased velocity? ...

I am a very strong booster of the Driveline Program. My son was a devoted participant in Kyle's early iterations of the program, beginning his 13U summer when coming back from a "Little League" elbow case. He stayed with it through high school and was an extremely effective pitcher in HS. He was up to 87 off the mound by mid Senior season at (then) 5'7" 160 and surrendered one ER in his last HS season. His bat and speed got him recruited as a CF, but he still uses some of the Driveline concepts and is a +arm in the OF.

That said, and in answering your second question: the single best thing a developing HS-aged player can do for any aspect of their athletic performance, including throwing velocity, is lift heavy, correctly, under authentic supervision. Heavy is self explanatory. But lifting correctly while receiving real guidance on form, movement, and progression cannot be had just anywhere or from anyone selling memberships at the local big box gym. Add the benefits of a fully-researched, iterative throwing program and the results are synergistic.

Thank you Tres. I appreciate the advice. 

BackstopDad32 posted:

There are D1 schools (mainly private) who have generous institional merit or need based aid for the right student. I have seen it not unusual for them to offer roster spots in lieu of scholarship money that they would normally offer. All about stretching those 11.7 as far as possible. 

That would be our case were he good enough. Honestly we would get way more aid than any baseball scholarship they would offer. And since in their infinite wisdom NCAA says you can't combine the two we would have to decline the scholarship and take the aid. I think that is where guaranteed spots with no scholarship come to play. 

PGStaff posted:

Branson,

I understand and I wasn't referring to your boys.  I even know that some kids are guaranteed a roster spot by some college coaches.  For those coaches that has worked out well for... Fine.  

I get it... The kid knows he is getting a chance.  I could guarantee that every kid will get a chance.  Not sure why anyone needs to guarantee more than that, though I know some do.

I stand by what I mentioned earlier regarding guaranteed roster spots. Maybe not in every case, but I know there are some college coaches that have to reach a quota.  Enrollment is the thing, baseball brings them students.  I couldn't coach at one of those type colleges, but I don't really see anything wrong with it either.

Truth is, there is nothing wrong with roster spots being guaranteed. At DI I can't imagine it happening, but guess it could.  Anyway, if it happens and it works out well, good enough.  But what exactly does a guaranteed roster spot really mean?  Is it spelled out in writing?

I have to admit, I know very little about guaranteed roster spots.  I have no experience with that.  I only know it happens, but there are players with baseball scholarships that sometimes don't make the roster.  Anyway, if it sounds like I'm arguing, I'm not.  I'm sure you know much more than I do about guaranteed roster spots.  All I have is an opinion on the subject.

PG is definitely correct in stating that there are quotas that have to be met.  When your son shows up and there are a lot morewalk on  recruits than expected, now you know why. 

Consider that weight lifting's biggest benefit may not be in velocity development, but injury prevention.

Kyle Boddy posted:

Consider that weight lifting's biggest benefit may not be in velocity development, but injury prevention.

+1

Kyle Boddy posted:

Consider that weight lifting's biggest benefit may not be in velocity development, but injury prevention.

So much truth in such a short statement.

Kyle Boddy posted:

Consider that weight lifting's biggest benefit may not be in velocity development, but injury prevention.

Oh, I agree. never meant to diminish a good weight program's injury prevention benefits. My previous comment was directed to a post concerning lift development and direct velocity correlation (or lack thereof). I do, however, believe weightlifting for baseball players needs to be closely tailored and organized. I see a lot of kids who just head to the gym and start lifting with no plan as to what they hope to achieve from it. I lift five days a week myself and admittedly am not all that well organized. But, then again, I'm a 50yo coach and not a player, so it's not going to matter much if I screw it up. 

As to velocity correlating with strength gains from weight lifting, I think it can be an immediate help for those who either don't bring enough mass or strength to generate the force necessary to bring about substantial velocity gains.

Hard throwing pitchers come in a lot of shapes.

Some are really muscular like Chapman and some are super thin like chris sale

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm...sale-13-sale-4_3.jpg

I think people look at this all wrong. Yes there are freaks like sale who can just flat bring it. But it is intuitive and common sense that strength can only help and can't hurt. Do not confuse strength with body building. Two different things. 

How are people looking at it all wrong? Did you read Kyles post in the other topic?  Good stuff.

2020dad posted:

I think people look at this all wrong. Yes there are freaks like sale who can just flat bring it. But it is intuitive and common sense that strength can only help and can't hurt. Do not confuse strength with body building. Two different things. 

I'm with you and believe strength training is a very big component. Whatever works for you, do it! I wouldn't recommend anyone doing Jake Arrieta's training regimen but it works for him!

I agree with a lot of KB's teachings and know  a local college player that spent some time with him last summer, the kid was ripped, very athletic to begin with and was trying to find his true ceiling, in an attempt to earn an opportunity to get more innings. We'll see in a few weeks when rotations are set as he's a middle relief that was used very sparingly in the past. Kudos to the kid for reaching out for help and getting better!

Body mass and genetics are a funny thing. I don't pretend to know anything beyond what I've seen or observed. There are some great ideas and guidance around here, some I've taken, some I've chose not to.

There is a former MTS player, current Mets affiliate that trains at the same facility as my son. He's all of 5'-9", 160lbs ringing wet and brings it at 97!!! Who can explain, it's nothing short of amazing!

If someone were to put together a list of the 10 very best pitchers in the past 50 years or more, what would those pitchers look like?  Size? Body Type? Velocity? Command? Best Pitch? Etc.?

Just off the top of my head, others will probably have a different list...

Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mariano Rivera, Steve Carleton.

The list above includes Tall, Short, and in between. Skinny, muscular, and in between. LHP and RHP. Pitchers that relied on high velocity, command, special pitches, etc. Even different training methods.  I think any list would be just as diversified. 

To me, it just shows that there is more than one way to accomplish greatness.

PGStaff posted:

If someone were to put together a list of the 10 very best pitchers in the past 50 years or more, what would those pitchers look like?  Size? Body Type? Velocity? Command? Best Pitch? Etc.?

Just off the top of my head, others will probably have a different list...

Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mariano Rivera, Steve Carleton.

The list above includes Tall, Short, and in between. Skinny, muscular, and in between. LHP and RHP. Pitchers that relied on high velocity, command, special pitches, etc. Even different training methods.  I think any list would be just as diversified. 

To me, it just shows that there is more than one way to accomplish greatness.

Can't argue with that list.

Missing Dennis Martinez.

While its a great list, most of those pitchers were from a different era.  

PGStaff posted:

If someone were to put together a list of the 10 very best pitchers in the past 50 years or more, what would those pitchers look like?  Size? Body Type? Velocity? Command? Best Pitch? Etc.?

Just off the top of my head, others will probably have a different list...

Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mariano Rivera, Steve Carleton.

The list above includes Tall, Short, and in between. Skinny, muscular, and in between. LHP and RHP. Pitchers that relied on high velocity, command, special pitches, etc. Even different training methods.  I think any list would be just as diversified. 

To me, it just shows that there is more than one way to accomplish greatness.

Great post.    Thanks for your contributions here PG.  They are appreciated. 

TPM posted:

Missing Dennis Martinez.

While its a great list, most of those pitchers were from a different era.  

That is true.  Just as an example, how far back do you have to go to find a Cy Young winner under six feet tall?    I believe it's Tim Lincecum in ~2009/10?

Most are of the top pitchers these days are 6'2 to 6'5 and are more power than crafty, I think.  Doesn't mean there aren't great smaller pitchers in the Bigs or college but I think your point is well taken.    

If a kid gets to 92-93 by the time the NLI signing period comes around a big program coach is going to find space for him. Chances are a kid throwing 88-89 is going to have until after post soph summer or junior year to make a decision. 

If this is all about throwing 92-93 and getting drafted it doesn't matter when the kid gets there. Not every pitching prospect (top ten rounds) plays at a ranked program. A friend's son played at a D3. He was at 84 in high school. He was drafted because he threw 93 his senior year of college.

My apologies if this is crude. But the joke is appropriate to the situation. 

A young bull and old bull were standing at the top of the hill. They looked down and saw a herd of heifers. The young bull suggested they run down there as fast as they can and each grab themselves a heifer. The old bull calmly suggested they walk down, size up the situation and have as many options as they can handle.

hsbaseball101 posted:

Most velocity gains I'm guessing is attributed to growth spurts.  A 5'11 170lb kid is probably going to throw way harder than his former 5'2 120lb self.  I'm curious if any adult has ever tried a velocity program without a previous injury that increased their velocity?  

When asked what we did for our son my top answer was fed him and watched him grow. Once in high school he had hitting lessons to optimize his swing, pitching lessons to optimize his pitching mechanics and velocity and did a speed camp geared towards running the sixty.

Go figure he was a different player as a 6'1" 170 junior than a 5'11" 135 freshman (grew to 6'2" 195) I used to enjoy teasing him his sister was a 5'10" 140 pound freshman (played college softball at 150).

Dadof3 posted:

2020dad posted:

My son has not showcased and will not until he hits some numbers we have in mind that would make it worth it.  He is closing in on the hitting end not so much with pitch velocity.  We have yet to try driveline but seriously considering the $400 deal.  Given the amount we have spent over the years...  I will certainly ask him to throw with his football mouthpiece in - that's free, what is there to lose?  In short we are willing to try about anything or at least entertain it.  Not mechanically though we have to keep focused on improving  mechanics and don't want to keep changing every time some questionable expert suggests something.  My son has not been recruited and likely will have to sell himself more than be recruited.  Will have to convince some team he will be the good soldier at the end of the bullpen, work hard and be a good teammate.  However even that will not be possible without a velocity increase.  He pitched in 17 games last year about 13 being starts.  He lost only one.  The last game of the year when he was completely exhausted from football workouts.  He IS that guy many talk about.  The guy who doesn't walk people (except when maybe you should), is a student of the game, throws mulitple pitches effectively and gets a lot of ground balls - he is a pitcher not a thrower.  You know who cares about all that travel ball success?  Him, his coaches, teammates and sometimes me.  That's where the list ends.  No college coach cares how well he does.  We had a total of one guy talk to us last year when he was 14 and its really questionable how legitimate that was.  VELOCITY IS KING.  Don't ever doubt that.  And you can't sit around and wait for it to happen magically.  That's all we 2020ish crowd are saying.  Nobody is ready to jump off a bridge cause their son doesn't have an early offer.  Nobody is wigging out and we sure as heck aren't naive.  If you think you can sit around and wait for it to magically happen then you are naive.  Hope is not a plan.  I would encourage all parents of 8th graders and freshmen to get the kid to work.  You are laying the foundation now for the improvements that will get your kid recruited later.  Do not be deceived into believing you are some how out of control and should just sit back and wait.

What was his velocity?  Aren't there pitchers in the Majors who aren't the fastest but have great movement?  I truly don't know the answer to that.

The pitchers with less velocity and great moment started with velocity. As they got older experience, command and savvy got them where they used to get with velocity. 

When people bring up Maddux and Colon as examples of pitchers who don't throw hard I point out Maddux once cruised 93. Colon was mid to upper 90's. He hit 100 in a game when he was a lot younger.

2020dad posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Dominik85 posted:

A super lanky 6“4 guy who thows 85 might still get interest

PLENTY of bigger, lower velo guys get attention, sign Power 5 D1 and/or get drafted. Even RHPs. You've heard it here, pro ball can develop players and college usually prefers to have kids who can contribute sooner. Plenty of D1s have pitchers who may touch 90 but live below it and there are plenty from either side that are 85-88 and throw 4 pitches for strikes. 

We need to separate college from MLB.  This is 100% true.  There are a bunch of guys even D1 who aren't even capable of hitting 90.  I have said a million times on here it is a complete and total myth that everyone in D1 throws 90.  And 85 or 86 is that number I have said many times can get you there.  Not gonna pitch on sunday for a power 5 probably but some mid to low D1 will pick you up for sure if you are 85 and great pitchability.  

People often confuse cruising speed with max speed when they talk college velocity. Max speed gets you recruited. Cruise speed wins games.

TPM posted:

Missing Dennis Martinez.

While its a great list, most of those pitchers were from a different era.  

It's easy to disagree with lists, but where's Juan Marichal and Jim Palmer?

Goblue33 posted:

TPM posted:

Missing Dennis Martinez.

While its a great list, most of those pitchers were from a different era.  

That is true.  Just as an example, how far back do you have to go to find a Cy Young winner under six feet tall?    I believe it's Tim Lincecum in ~2009/10?

Most are of the top pitchers these days are 6'2 to 6'5 and are more power than crafty, I think.  Doesn't mean there aren't great smaller pitchers in the Bigs or college but I think your point is well taken.    

Plus we know some of these pitchers came from the steroid era.

2020dad posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Dominik85 posted:

A super lanky 6“4 guy who thows 85 might still get interest

PLENTY of bigger, lower velo guys get attention, sign Power 5 D1 and/or get drafted. Even RHPs. You've heard it here, pro ball can develop players and college usually prefers to have kids who can contribute sooner. Plenty of D1s have pitchers who may touch 90 but live below it and there are plenty from either side that are 85-88 and throw 4 pitches for strikes. 

We need to separate college from MLB.  This is 100% true.  There are a bunch of guys even D1 who aren't even capable of hitting 90.  I have said a million times on here it is a complete and total myth that everyone in D1 throws 90.  And 85 or 86 is that number I have said many times can get you there.  Not gonna pitch on sunday for a power 5 probably but some mid to low D1 will pick you up for sure if you are 85 and great pitchability.  

My son pitches at a mid level D1.... they have three consistently over 90.. BUT if they keep throwing 90-92 all game they will get hit.  Most of the upper class guys sit are 87-90.... with better breaking balls and experience.   Some of the underclass guys show potential..... but freshman rarely pitch.  They are just not mentally and proficient enough to get through 5-7 innings.   

In high school everyone wants velo.... it wins.... but in college, while velo is great, it loses a little of the importance.  If you are throwing in D1 you need "controlled" velo....command of the velo.... change the speed of the fast ball, placement, you need a faster sharper breaking ball than in HS and you need to be able to move it around.  You also need to learn the art of getting in pitchers counts, and getting the batter to swing at your pitch to be able to turn DP's  , youhave to size up a batters swing tendencies quickly... where he is at in the box, remember your scouting report. 

In HS you can throw 90 and win a lot of games and listen to the uninformed about how the kid is a at rounder..... its like that stud quarterback that goes to big U and never learns how to read defenses.... ends up a where are they now. 

There is no comparison to high school baseball and D1 ball  throwing 90 + is great in HS..... won't get many out in D1 ball.  I have seen many D1 pitchers throwing 86-87..... mid relievers with crazy curve and sliders and lefties too....  not too many starters though

Do tall pitchers get away with being skinny easier than shorter guys? It seems like the guys who throw really hard despite being super skinny are really tall. Randy Johnson and Chris sale look like they are just bones and skin but they are also 6"6 plus.

Dominik85 posted:

Do tall pitchers get away with being skinny easier than shorter guys? It seems like the guys who throw really hard despite being super skinny are really tall. Randy Johnson and Chris sale look like they are just bones and skin but they are also 6"6 plus.

If apples and apples (which, of course, is never really the case), yes.  Which has more capacity for velo, longer levers with moderate strength or shorter levers with moderate strength?  Which release will be closer to home plate, therefore adding perceived velo and shorter time for a hitter to pick up the pitch?  Which potentially allows for more severe angles of attack?

Dominik85 posted:

Do tall pitchers get away with being skinny easier than shorter guys? It seems like the guys who throw really hard despite being super skinny are really tall. Randy Johnson and Chris sale look like they are just bones and skin but they are also 6"6 plus.

No one ever got fired for buying IBM. No scouts has ever been fired for writing up tall pitchers.

Kyle Boddy posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Do tall pitchers get away with being skinny easier than shorter guys? It seems like the guys who throw really hard despite being super skinny are really tall. Randy Johnson and Chris sale look like they are just bones and skin but they are also 6"6 plus.

No one ever got fired for buying IBM. No scouts has ever been fired for writing up tall pitchers.

So it is a SYA (save your ass) move by the scouts?

PGStaff posted:

If someone were to put together a list of the 10 very best pitchers in the past 50 years or more, what would those pitchers look like?  Size? Body Type? Velocity? Command? Best Pitch? Etc.?

Just off the top of my head, others will probably have a different list...

Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Clayton Kershaw, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Mariano Rivera, Steve Carleton.

The list above includes Tall, Short, and in between. Skinny, muscular, and in between. LHP and RHP. Pitchers that relied on high velocity, command, special pitches, etc. Even different training methods.  I think any list would be just as diversified. 

To me, it just shows that there is more than one way to accomplish greatness.

All great but only one was under 6', Pedro Martinez.