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Have some down time from work and figured I would post the velocity increase of 2018 dating back to last August.  Santa brought some Jaeger bands during christmas and he has been on them almost daily...I'm thinking a major contributing factor to his increase is from them...5'11.5, 145 pounds and turns 15 at the end of next month.  Jugs gun was used (the one that shows both peak and ending velocity).

 

Peak Velocity

Aug 2014 --68MPH

Jan 2015 --69MPH

Jan 23, 2015 --70MPH

Feb 15, 2015 --71MPH

Feb 27, 2015 --72MPH

Mar 14, 2015 --73MPH

Apr 12, 2015 --Pitchers Crow Hop 76MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 78MPH

May 2, 2015 --74MPH

 

I've seen in the search box that a lot of questions about velo improvement, guestimates when older, etc...Just figured I would start a running record of 2018 and for anyone else who would like to start a historical record jump on in...what's worked to increase...what has not.

 

I've heard the weighted balls work well, but haven't allowed 2018 to go there yet...figured I would wait a few years.

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Should be interesting to follow.

 

couple of things to remember...

 

1. Every player is different, so what happens to one may mean very little to someone else.

 

2. While there are training methods that can help, the one thing that most every pitcher at  a young age experiences is velocity gain each year.  How much of that gain comes naturally differs from one pitcher to the next.  Not to discourage what anyone does, the bands are great.  Just know there should be natural velocity gains every year among the younger group.

Interesting thread. 

 

My 2018 is about the same size as yours and throws at about the same velocity. He was clocked last December at a college camp sitting right at 70. We just bought a Jugs gun, but are still figuring out how to use it, so I'm not ready to gun him yet.

 

My 2018 has been using the Driveline Baseball remote velocity training since the end of March. It is hard work, and it's sometimes challenging to fit the extra work in each night with baseball and homework, but it I think it will ultimately be worth it. It is a weighted ball program, but his trainer is doing a great job of getting him to the correct fitness level before introducing the weighted balls. They are big believers in the J-bands as well. I will say that since starting this program, his arm has never felt better. He often makes passing comments about how good his arm feels and how he has no arm pain after pitching. He is building a great relationship with his trainer and sends him periodic videos of his pitching mechanics to get feedback and personalized drills to work on specific tweaks to his delivery. We don't live near Driveline, so the remote option is the best solution for us. Most of the private pitching coaches he has worked with in the past are minor league players, so they are only here in the fall/winter. This program gives him a consistent person to work with year around.  

 

I think his biggest issue right now is his growth. He is all arms and legs and he says he doesn't feel confident in what his body is doing during his delivery, like his timing is off. When you grow so quickly, everything about your delivery changes. It can take a while to grow back into your body and develop confidence again.

 

Good luck to your son.

NTG 2016 LHP son, with long toss and band work, plus regular throwing program outlined for him by local D1 school jumped from last year's 81 tops (range 78-80) at local venue with gun to 86 (range 83-84) at same venue in one year. These were velocities recorded in-game over four innings.

 

He was in a supervised, strenuous conditioning program from November through February and will resume it weekdays once HS season ends. Weekends are already taken up with the summer travel circuit.

 

6'0" 160lbs.Was 5'10" 140 lbs a year ago. Biggest benefit of his growth and the program has been his ability to go up in his pitch count with no residual pain/soreness and no fall-off in velocity in the later innings.

 

However, as his velocity has increased, his location has suffered. His instructors advise him to keep working on his body and as he becomes accustomed to the difference in his stride and arm speed his ability to locate will come back.

 

I guess that's the trade off as these kids mature and have to learn to cope with major changes to their bodies.

Last edited by NotThatGuy

I would think those numbers are pretty typical for a kid who is working on his throwing.   I would guess my son's numbers were about the same.

 

My son is a 2015

 

January 2014.....up to 84 at an indoor showcase

April 2014....83-84 in his first HS start of the season

May 2014.....85-87....and 86 in the last inning of a 7-inning game

July 2014.....sat 85-86....up to 87 a couple times during travel ball

April 2015....first game of this spring  86-89....hit 90 4 times, 91 once, though I question this guy's gun a bit...it's always seemed a little high

Since....has sat 87-88 in last 4 or 5 games...hitting 89 often.  Last 2 games, he hit 89 on the last batter of a CG

 

Last spring he was 5'8, maybe 145.....he's now 6'0, 170....just turned 18 two weeks ago, so he's 9-10 months younger than a lot of 2015's

Last edited by Buckeye 2015
Started gunning my 2019 in 2013 when he was 12. He learned a change up and wanted to see the actual difference. This was in March right before the middle school season started. We did it again the next two years just to see what the improvement might be. He has worked on mechanics the last two year but we haven't done any velocity training and do not plan on it until that elbow growth plate closes. This was with a stalker.

2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph

Pretty sure all his gains have came from growth. Most mechanical changes have been accuracy related or just being more concistant in what he was already doing.

What's funny is I've talked to a half a dozen kids or so who say they touch 80 so since my son throws harder than them he must be in the 80's. I just smile and say yep he must be hahaha.
Originally Posted by Scotty83:

       
Started gunning my 2019 in 2013 when he was 12. He learned a change up and wanted to see the actual difference. This was in March right before the middle school season started. We did it again the next two years just to see what the improvement might be. He has worked on mechanics the last two year but we haven't done any velocity training and do not plan on it until that elbow growth plate closes. This was with a stalker.

2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph

Pretty sure all his gains have came from growth. Most mechanical changes have been accuracy related or just being more concistant in what he was already doing.

What's funny is I've talked to a half a dozen kids or so who say they touch 80 so since my son throws harder than them he must be in the 80's. I just smile and say yep he must be hahaha.

       
80 at 12 would be ridiculous.  Is it possible?  Not sure.  Open minded to it but never have seen it.  However there is one kid in our area at 13 who I have personally gunned at 79 (and no not my son so I have no reason to lie, wish it was my kid though!) And I am sure he will hit 80 before season's end.  How many are.there in the whole country who can do that?  I would guess not many.
Originally Posted by 2020dad:

       
Originally Posted by Scotty83:

       
Started gunning my 2019 in 2013 when he was 12. He learned a change up and wanted to see the actual difference. This was in March right before the middle school season started. We did it again the next two years just to see what the improvement might be. He has worked on mechanics the last two year but we haven't done any velocity training and do not plan on it until that elbow growth plate closes. This was with a stalker.

2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph

Pretty sure all his gains have came from growth. Most mechanical changes have been accuracy related or just being more concistant in what he was already doing.

What's funny is I've talked to a half a dozen kids or so who say they touch 80 so since my son throws harder than them he must be in the 80's. I just smile and say yep he must be hahaha.

       
80 at 12 would be ridiculous.  Is it possible?  Not sure.  Open minded to it but never have seen it.  However there is one kid in our area at 13 who I have personally gunned at 79 (and no not my son so I have no reason to lie, wish it was my kid though!) And I am sure he will hit 80 before season's end.  How many are.there in the whole country who can do that?  I would guess not many.

       

What? My son is a 2019 he's 14. So are the kids saying they are touching 80. I was making a point as to how wrong they are. They say they throw 80 but my son throws harder. Well my son throws low 70's. Because they are wrong about what they throw then they are wrong about what he throws. I had two middle school coaches call me this year and ask if my kid was touching 80. I told them no and they said it's all their parents are talking about lol. Just making a point of how this velocity stuff gets blow way out of proportion.
Originally Posted by Scotty83:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:

       
Originally Posted by Scotty83:

       
Started gunning my 2019 in 2013 when he was 12. He learned a change up and wanted to see the actual difference. This was in March right before the middle school season started. We did it again the next two years just to see what the improvement might be. He has worked on mechanics the last two year but we haven't done any velocity training and do not plan on it until that elbow growth plate closes. This was with a stalker.

2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph

Pretty sure all his gains have came from growth. Most mechanical changes have been accuracy related or just being more concistant in what he was already doing.

What's funny is I've talked to a half a dozen kids or so who say they touch 80 so since my son throws harder than them he must be in the 80's. I just smile and say yep he must be hahaha.

       
80 at 12 would be ridiculous.  Is it possible?  Not sure.  Open minded to it but never have seen it.  However there is one kid in our area at 13 who I have personally gunned at 79 (and no not my son so I have no reason to lie, wish it was my kid though!) And I am sure he will hit 80 before season's end.  How many are.there in the whole country who can do that?  I would guess not many.

       

What? My son is a 2019 he's 14. So are the kids saying they are touching 80. I was making a point as to how wrong they are. They say they throw 80 but my son throws harder. Well my son throws low 70's. Because they are wrong about what they throw then they are wrong about what he throws. I had two middle school coaches call me this year and ask if my kid was touching 80. I told them no and they said it's all their parents are talking about lol. Just making a point of how this velocity stuff gets blow way out of proportion.

       
Yeah I understood that.  And agree whole heartedly.  I hear it all the time too.  Then you gun it and its not close.  I was just saying that there are some out there.  And they are amazing to watch.
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
P.S. At 14 I wouldn't call 80 common but there are more out there than you might think.

I might've seen one, but of course could not verify...now if you say freshmen at 80 then that is a different story (not saying there are a lot, but I'm sure it is more than at 14)...practically all the frosh on 2018's team are on the outer edge of 15 already...

But I'm in the NE so the arms hibernate during the colder months...

Originally Posted by phillyinNJ:
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
P.S. At 14 I wouldn't call 80 common but there are more out there than you might think.

I might've seen one, but of course could not verify...now if you say freshmen at 80 then that is a different story (not saying there are a lot, but I'm sure it is more than at 14)...practically all the frosh on 2018's team are on the outer edge of 15 already...

But I'm in the NE so the arms hibernate during the colder months...


I've seen a handful at 14 at national events. I've also gunned an 84 at 12u at the USSSA Winter Nationals in Arizona a few years ago. This kid was sitting 81-83 later in the year at the NYBCs. However, at 14u PG was still only showing him at 82. he wasn't overly big at 12/13 (5' 8"). However, it doesn't look like he grew much over the next couple of years, but he's had a pretty good varsity career through two years.

Not sure if it is the same kid roothog is referring to, but I have seen a 12 year old touch 84 mph.  This was very unusual and looked extremely dangerous.

 

Just because we have the luxury of seeing many of the best kids, I have seen many 14 year olds throwing 80, even seen a couple touching 90 or better at that age. One of those is now a senior in high school throwing in the upper 90s. Possible 1st round pick this coming June.  If he were a bit taller, he would be cinch 1st round.

 

Each year at our National showcase we will have a very large number of kids just finishing their junior year throwing 90 or better. In fact, almost all of them throw 90.

 

However, if you took into account every pitcher of any age group, this large number of high velocity guys would represent a small percentage of all the pitchers. And some states might have a couple dozen while other states might not have one.  Then the state that doesn't have one, might have 5 or 6 the next year.

 

Puberty, natural ability, fast twitch or slow twitch, the weight room and mechanics all affect velo. I think i would have pulled my hair out if i was worried how fast my son threw before 15. Personally i think its a bit ridiculous since nobody is getting scouted at those ages....at least not scouted seriously and it doesn't matter. I do believe in self improvement, so i like the work....but am a bit concerned about the fascination with velo at the younger age.

Originally Posted by Shoveit4Ks:

       

Puberty, natural ability, fast twitch or slow twitch, the weight room and mechanics all affect velo. I think i would have pulled my hair out if i was worried how fast my son threw before 15. Personally i think its a bit ridiculous since nobody is getting scouted at those ages....at least not scouted seriously and it doesn't matter. I do believe in self improvement, so i like the work....but am a bit concerned about the fascination with velo at the younger age.


       
Like anything else.  You are climbing a.mountain.  the more mountain you climb early the less you have to climb later. Getting scouted has nothing to do with it.  You are working as part of your journey to be scouted someday.  Its about setting goals or benchmarks and striving to achieve those.  The great players in any sport I know worked hard as kids to excel well beyond the point where they were already better than their competition.  Between my class, the class before me and the class after me we had five college scholarship basketball players (one an ncaa D1 National champ), a guy who played in the NFL and 6 mlb draft choices one who pitched almost 10 years in mlb.  This doesn't count the numerous other guys from my hometown who I played against when I was that age (13).  I know what it looks like at that age.   D1 or professional players don't just drop out of the sky they progress from the youngest ages on up.  You have to start early.  Can't sit back and wait especially in a skill sport like baseball.   And really if we were talking 9 year olds I might agree but 13 is starting to get down the line.  You bet you are being recruited at 15 and we are more and more seeing it at 14.  You can disagree with this practice of course but you can't disagree that it is happening because that is just a stone.cold fact.
Originally Posted by phillyinNJ:

Have some down time from work and figured I would post the velocity increase of 2018 dating back to last August.  Santa brought some Jaeger bands during christmas and he has been on them almost daily...I'm thinking a major contributing factor to his increase is from them...5'11.5, 145 pounds and turns 15 at the end of next month.  Jugs gun was used (the one that shows both peak and ending velocity).

 

Peak Velocity

Aug 2014 --68MPH

Jan 2015 --69MPH

Jan 23, 2015 --70MPH

Feb 15, 2015 --71MPH

Feb 27, 2015 --72MPH

Mar 14, 2015 --73MPH

Apr 12, 2015 --Pitchers Crow Hop 76MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 78MPH

May 2, 2015 --74MPH

 

I've seen in the search box that a lot of questions about velo improvement, guestimates when older, etc...Just figured I would start a running record of 2018 and for anyone else who would like to start a historical record jump on in...what's worked to increase...what has not.

 

I've heard the weighted balls work well, but haven't allowed 2018 to go there yet...figured I would wait a few years.

I've never really tracked 2019Son. He's just been playing baseball. He's worked hard on hitting -- including having a hitting coach the past 18 months. He's always pitched, but never had pitching lessons. He has recently indicated a strong interest in pitching (his words to me a week ago: "Dad, I'd rather throw a complete game than hit a home run"), and is starting a long-toss program (yesterday was the first day) and a Texas-Baseball-Ranch-inspired pitching development program this summer. So I'll start tracking this and will post updates. Here's what I know so far, based on radar readings and the first day of long toss:

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

May 21, 2015 (age 14 yrs, 4 mo.): 240' long toss

 

On the 30th I'll get a radar reading at the pitching facility, and once his pitching program starts he'll have them 3x per week.

 

Maybe he's getting a late start. I buy the whole "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it philosophy," but I wanted him to want to go after it. So the regular measurement is starting now. I'll have more info this summer.

 

My 2022 (11.5YO) doesn't like his CU bc he doesn't think there's enough difference bw it and this FB. I reluctantly dragged the Jugs out yesterday to see just what the numbers show. He's right. His circle CU sits at 50-52 and his FB sits at 54-55 and tops out at 59. I guess he needs to work a little more to get his FB to ride closer to his max. Unfortunately, he's pretty accurate at 54-55 but his location suffers above that number.
OK, slight delay, but 2019Son went to pitching coach today, and had evaluation (including using high-speed video to break down his delivery -- which was cool to see in super slo-mo). Hit 75.1, so here's what I have: 

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph

Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by Shoveit4Ks:

       

Puberty, natural ability, fast twitch or slow twitch, the weight room and mechanics all affect velo. I think i would have pulled my hair out if i was worried how fast my son threw before 15. Personally i think its a bit ridiculous since nobody is getting scouted at those ages....at least not scouted seriously and it doesn't matter. I do believe in self improvement, so i like the work....but am a bit concerned about the fascination with velo at the younger age.


       
Like anything else.  You are climbing a.mountain.  the more mountain you climb early the less you have to climb later. Getting scouted has nothing to do with it.  You are working as part of your journey to be scouted someday.  Its about setting goals or benchmarks and striving to achieve those.  The great players in any sport I know worked hard as kids to excel well beyond the point where they were already better than their competition.  Between my class, the class before me and the class after me we had five college scholarship basketball players (one an ncaa D1 National champ), a guy who played in the NFL and 6 mlb draft choices one who pitched almost 10 years in mlb.  This doesn't count the numerous other guys from my hometown who I played against when I was that age (13).  I know what it looks like at that age.   D1 or professional players don't just drop out of the sky they progress from the youngest ages on up.  You have to start early.  Can't sit back and wait especially in a skill sport like baseball.   And really if we were talking 9 year olds I might agree but 13 is starting to get down the line.  You bet you are being recruited at 15 and we are more and more seeing it at 14.  You can disagree with this practice of course but you can't disagree that it is happening because that is just a stone.cold fact.

You raise some very valid points.

But at 11.5?  

Wow.  This one got resurrected I see.  I don't necessarily think at 11 and a half there is a magic mph number you 'must' be at.  But I do think youth baseball makes the huge mistake of trying to teach control first.  Control can be had at a young age with poor mechanics.  To p velocity can not be had at any age with poor mechanics.  Keep in mind before responding that there are of course a few freaks of nature, let's keep this the the vast majority.  Also some of what we call poor mechanics in mlb is nit picking at that point.  Pretty much all those guys have good mechanics.  So I would say it is never too early to teach your kid to develop powerful mechanics and throw hard.  You want to measure that via radar I am fine with that also.  But never ever sacrifice velocity for control.
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
OK, slight delay, but 2019Son went to pitching coach today, and had evaluation (including using high-speed video to break down his delivery -- which was cool to see in super slo-mo). Hit 75.1, so here's what I have: 

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph


       
On a nice track there 2019.  Always feel like if you can get to your freshman year anywhere around 80 your chances are  good.
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Wow.  This one got resurrected I see.  I don't necessarily think at 11 and a half there is a magic mph number you 'must' be at.  But I do think youth baseball makes the huge mistake of trying to teach control first.  Control can be had at a young age with poor mechanics.  To p velocity can not be had at any age with poor mechanics.  Keep in mind before responding that there are of course a few freaks of nature, let's keep this the the vast majority.  Also some of what we call poor mechanics in mlb is nit picking at that point.  Pretty much all those guys have good mechanics.  So I would say it is never too early to teach your kid to develop powerful mechanics and throw hard.  You want to measure that via radar I am fine with that also.  But never ever sacrifice velocity for control.

Exactly right. In addition, I believe correct mechanics, in addition to maximizing velocity, are part of a long-term arm health plan. My own son was practically unusable for almost two years as a pitcher due to control issues at a young age. People wondered why I didn't just have him slow up the velocity and find the strike zone. Many of them are finding out now. I see too many big guys in high school who should be throwing harder. I kow quite a few and also know that their velocity was harnessed at a young age and traded for "putting the ball over the plate."

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:
OK, slight delay, but 2019Son went to pitching coach today, and had evaluation (including using high-speed video to break down his delivery -- which was cool to see in super slo-mo). Hit 75.1, so here's what I have: 

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph


Looking good. The radar gun is a tool like any other. It measures something. IN this case progress. This is very nice progress. There are lots of places where a freshman throwing 75 with decent stuff and good movement is a starting varsity pitcher.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Wow.  This one got resurrected I see.  I don't necessarily think at 11 and a half there is a magic mph number you 'must' be at.  But I do think youth baseball makes the huge mistake of trying to teach control first.  Control can be had at a young age with poor mechanics.  To p velocity can not be had at any age with poor mechanics.  Keep in mind before responding that there are of course a few freaks of nature, let's keep this the the vast majority.  Also some of what we call poor mechanics in mlb is nit picking at that point.  Pretty much all those guys have good mechanics.  So I would say it is never too early to teach your kid to develop powerful mechanics and throw hard.  You want to measure that via radar I am fine with that also.  But never ever sacrifice velocity for control.

Exactly right. In addition, I believe correct mechanics, in addition to maximizing velocity, are part of a long-term arm health plan. My own son was practically unusable for almost two years as a pitcher due to control issues at a young age. People wondered why I didn't just have him slow up the velocity and find the strike zone. Many of them are finding out now. I see too many big guys in high school who should be throwing harder. I kow quite a few and also know that their velocity was harnessed at a young age and traded for "putting the ball over the plate."


       
And by the way root my son is stuck in this right now.  He often gets put in big games.  Win or go home games where we are up one or down one and he knows a few walks would be devastating for his team (13u).  So he cruises like he is throwing a bullpen at maybe 65 or 66 instead of really letting it fly.  He gets the desired result and this confirms for him he is doing the right thing. His out pitch becomes his curve ball and two seemer which gets a little drop and produces ground balls.  Then I say to him when are you just going to let it fly?  Pre season he had been about 70 and I thought pretty good control.  Figured great by seasons end maybe 72 or 73 setting him up for upper 70's his 14u season and 80 something as a freshman.  But you can't just turn it on and off like a light switch.  He rarely tries to reach back and blow somebody away with a good four seemer   ground balls and quick innings are a premium when you may be asked to pitch parts of three different games in a weekend but still...  just got to keep plugging I guess.  And I understand sometimes its really hard for a kid to separate what is best for his team vs. What is best for his future.
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Wow.  This one got resurrected I see.  I don't necessarily think at 11 and a half there is a magic mph number you 'must' be at.  But I do think youth baseball makes the huge mistake of trying to teach control first.  Control can be had at a young age with poor mechanics.  To p velocity can not be had at any age with poor mechanics.  Keep in mind before responding that there are of course a few freaks of nature, let's keep this the the vast majority.  Also some of what we call poor mechanics in mlb is nit picking at that point.  Pretty much all those guys have good mechanics.  So I would say it is never too early to teach your kid to develop powerful mechanics and throw hard.  You want to measure that via radar I am fine with that also.  But never ever sacrifice velocity for control.

Exactly right. In addition, I believe correct mechanics, in addition to maximizing velocity, are part of a long-term arm health plan. My own son was practically unusable for almost two years as a pitcher due to control issues at a young age. People wondered why I didn't just have him slow up the velocity and find the strike zone. Many of them are finding out now. I see too many big guys in high school who should be throwing harder. I kow quite a few and also know that their velocity was harnessed at a young age and traded for "putting the ball over the plate."


       
And by the way root my son is stuck in this right now.  He often gets put in big games.  Win or go home games where we are up one or down one and he knows a few walks would be devastating for his team (13u).  So he cruises like he is throwing a bullpen at maybe 65 or 66 instead of really letting it fly.  He gets the desired result and this confirms for him he is doing the right thing. His out pitch becomes his curve ball and two seemer which gets a little drop and produces ground balls.  Then I say to him when are you just going to let it fly?  Pre season he had been about 70 and I thought pretty good control.  Figured great by seasons end maybe 72 or 73 setting him up for upper 70's his 14u season and 80 something as a freshman.  But you can't just turn it on and off like a light switch.  He rarely tries to reach back and blow somebody away with a good four seemer   ground balls and quick innings are a premium when you may be asked to pitch parts of three different games in a weekend but still...  just got to keep plugging I guess.  And I understand sometimes its really hard for a kid to separate what is best for his team vs. What is best for his future.


There comes a time (and you're kid is right about that age) where they learn to sling it at a cruising speed 3-4mph below what they can actually throw with the same solid mechanics.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Wow.  This one got resurrected I see.  I don't necessarily think at 11 and a half there is a magic mph number you 'must' be at.  But I do think youth baseball makes the huge mistake of trying to teach control first.  Control can be had at a young age with poor mechanics.  To p velocity can not be had at any age with poor mechanics.  Keep in mind before responding that there are of course a few freaks of nature, let's keep this the the vast majority.  Also some of what we call poor mechanics in mlb is nit picking at that point.  Pretty much all those guys have good mechanics.  So I would say it is never too early to teach your kid to develop powerful mechanics and throw hard.  You want to measure that via radar I am fine with that also.  But never ever sacrifice velocity for control.

Exactly right. In addition, I believe correct mechanics, in addition to maximizing velocity, are part of a long-term arm health plan. My own son was practically unusable for almost two years as a pitcher due to control issues at a young age. People wondered why I didn't just have him slow up the velocity and find the strike zone. Many of them are finding out now. I see too many big guys in high school who should be throwing harder. I kow quite a few and also know that their velocity was harnessed at a young age and traded for "putting the ball over the plate."


       
And by the way root my son is stuck in this right now.  He often gets put in big games.  Win or go home games where we are up one or down one and he knows a few walks would be devastating for his team (13u).  So he cruises like he is throwing a bullpen at maybe 65 or 66 instead of really letting it fly.  He gets the desired result and this confirms for him he is doing the right thing. His out pitch becomes his curve ball and two seemer which gets a little drop and produces ground balls.  Then I say to him when are you just going to let it fly?  Pre season he had been about 70 and I thought pretty good control.  Figured great by seasons end maybe 72 or 73 setting him up for upper 70's his 14u season and 80 something as a freshman.  But you can't just turn it on and off like a light switch.  He rarely tries to reach back and blow somebody away with a good four seemer   ground balls and quick innings are a premium when you may be asked to pitch parts of three different games in a weekend but still...  just got to keep plugging I guess.  And I understand sometimes its really hard for a kid to separate what is best for his team vs. What is best for his future.


There comes a time (and you're kid is right about that age) where they learn to sling it at a cruising speed 3-4mph below what they can actually throw with the same solid mechanics.


       
You may have a good point there.  If you stay within the mechanics that WILL allow you to throw hard but take some off for better control and to let your two seemer work maybe its not all bad.  I just hope when the day comes and he needs it he knows how to channel those extra mph.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:
OK, slight delay, but 2019Son went to pitching coach today, and had evaluation (including using high-speed video to break down his delivery -- which was cool to see in super slo-mo). Hit 75.1, so here's what I have: 

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph


Looking good. The radar gun is a tool like any other. It measures something. IN this case progress. This is very nice progress. There are lots of places where a freshman throwing 75 with decent stuff and good movement is a starting varsity pitcher.

Thanks roothog, much appreciated. The high school that 2019Son will be attending is in the highest classification (Division 1) and the largest region (Southern Section) in California, and in one of the most competitive leagues, so there is no thought of varsity next year. 2019Son is aiming for JV, and hopefully he continues to make progress -- and puts on a little weight! (130-something pounds is not going to cut it! )

 

The pitching facility that he went to for the first time had the following chart on the wall for max velocity and max throwing distance, which I thought was interesting. It isn't so much "you will follow this path" but rather "given your goals, how do you stand right now? And do you need to pick up the pace?"

 

 

Throwing Velocity and Long-Toss by Age

Throwing Velocity and Long-Toss by Age

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  • Throwing Velocity and Long-Toss by Age
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:
OK, slight delay, but 2019Son went to pitching coach today, and had evaluation (including using high-speed video to break down his delivery -- which was cool to see in super slo-mo). Hit 75.1, so here's what I have: 

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph


Looking good. The radar gun is a tool like any other. It measures something. IN this case progress. This is very nice progress. There are lots of places where a freshman throwing 75 with decent stuff and good movement is a starting varsity pitcher.

Thanks roothog, much appreciated. The high school that 2019Son will be attending is in the highest classification (Division 1) and the largest region (Southern Section) in California, and in one of the most competitive leagues, so there is no thought of varsity next year. 2019Son is aiming for JV, and hopefully he continues to make progress -- and puts on a little weight! (130-something pounds is not going to cut it! )

 

The pitching facility that he went to for the first time had the following chart on the wall for max velocity and max throwing distance, which I thought was interesting. It isn't so much "you will follow this path" but rather "given your goals, how do you stand right now? And do you need to pick up the pace?"

 

 

Throwing Velocity and Long-Toss by Age

Throwing Velocity and Long-Toss by Age

Sorry, the inserted photo got inserted twice . . . I must have screwed something up.

Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Wow.  This one got resurrected I see.  I don't necessarily think at 11 and a half there is a magic mph number you 'must' be at.  But I do think youth baseball makes the huge mistake of trying to teach control first.  Control can be had at a young age with poor mechanics.  To p velocity can not be had at any age with poor mechanics.  Keep in mind before responding that there are of course a few freaks of nature, let's keep this the the vast majority.  Also some of what we call poor mechanics in mlb is nit picking at that point.  Pretty much all those guys have good mechanics.  So I would say it is never too early to teach your kid to develop powerful mechanics and throw hard.  You want to measure that via radar I am fine with that also.  But never ever sacrifice velocity for control.

Exactly right. In addition, I believe correct mechanics, in addition to maximizing velocity, are part of a long-term arm health plan. My own son was practically unusable for almost two years as a pitcher due to control issues at a young age. People wondered why I didn't just have him slow up the velocity and find the strike zone. Many of them are finding out now. I see too many big guys in high school who should be throwing harder. I kow quite a few and also know that their velocity was harnessed at a young age and traded for "putting the ball over the plate."

Same thing happened to 2019Son in Little League. His coach when he was about 10 tried to get him to throw slower ("just get it over the plate") and I had to gently -- didn't want him to not respect the coach -- urge 2019Son to continue throwing as hard as he could. And if he is unusable at age 10 because of control, oh well . . .

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:
OK, slight delay, but 2019Son went to pitching coach today, and had evaluation (including using high-speed video to break down his delivery -- which was cool to see in super slo-mo). Hit 75.1, so here's what I have: 

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph


Looking good. The radar gun is a tool like any other. It measures something. IN this case progress. This is very nice progress. There are lots of places where a freshman throwing 75 with decent stuff and good movement is a starting varsity pitcher.

Thanks roothog, much appreciated. The high school that 2019Son will be attending is in the highest classification (Division 1) and the largest region (Southern Section) in California, and in one of the most competitive leagues, so there is no thought of varsity next year. 2019Son is aiming for JV, and hopefully he continues to make progress -- and puts on a little weight! (130-something pounds is not going to cut it! )

 

The pitching facility that he went to for the first time had the following chart on the wall for max velocity and max throwing distance, which I thought was interesting. It isn't so much "you will follow this path" but rather "given your goals, how do you stand right now? And do you need to pick up the pace?"

 

 

Throwing Velocity and Long-Toss by Age

Throwing Velocity and Long-Toss by Age


       
It's crazy how two similar players can have such different experiences based on where they live. My rising freshman who's at the same velocity as yours will be going to the smallest classification school in a bad district for baseball. His high school coach is drooling over him. Already asked me if I think he can handle the pressure of being the top pitcher as a freshman. Move your kid here and our team will be loaded hahaha. 

I also found that chart interesting my son was on the bottom at 12, next level up at 13, and second level down at 14. Hope that trend continues to the top level at 15 lol.
Slight uptick today, FWIW. I told 2019Son to just keep adding 1 mph every 2 weeks and we would continue to feed him.  
 
In all seriousness, I suspect this is the age when kids tend to add velocity, just due to all of the growing they are doing.
 
 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo.): 76.1 mph

 

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
Slight uptick today, FWIW. I told 2019Son to just keep adding 1 mph every 2 weeks and we would continue to feed him.  
 
In all seriousness, I suspect this is the age when kids tend to add velocity, just due to all of the growing they are doing.
 
 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo.): 76.1 mph

 


       
Its amazing how closely my son's progress matches yours!  We will see what next year brings but upper 70's is kind of our goal.  Going to be working very hard with a cressey type workout all off season.  Key is to enter freshman year over 80.
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
Slight uptick today, FWIW. I told 2019Son to just keep adding 1 mph every 2 weeks and we would continue to feed him.  
 
In all seriousness, I suspect this is the age when kids tend to add velocity, just due to all of the growing they are doing.
 
 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo.): 76.1 mph

 


       
Its amazing how closely my son's progress matches yours!  We will see what next year brings but upper 70's is kind of our goal.  Going to be working very hard with a cressey type workout all off season.  Key is to enter freshman year over 80.

80 entering freshman year is fantastic. 2019Son has two teammates there -- one has hit 81, the other 80 -- and he knows another rising freshman (going to a rival school) who has hit 85 (on a gun at pitching facility -- not "daddy radar"!) There aren't that many of them, though. 80 at 14U is pretty rare.

 

I think your son's emphasis on building strength will pay off. 2019Son is just starting to do that -- not with weights yet -- and I think that will help. Hey, he just reached 140 lbs, so, like I said, we've agreed to keep feeding him!

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

       
Slight uptick today, FWIW. I told 2019Son to just keep adding 1 mph every 2 weeks and we would continue to feed him.  
 
In all seriousness, I suspect this is the age when kids tend to add velocity, just due to all of the growing they are doing.
 
 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo.): 76.1 mph

 


       
Its amazing how closely my son's progress matches yours!  We will see what next year brings but upper 70's is kind of our goal.  Going to be working very hard with a cressey type workout all off season.  Key is to enter freshman year over 80.

80 entering freshman year is fantastic. 2019Son has two teammates there -- one has hit 81, the other 80 -- and he knows another rising freshman (going to a rival school) who has hit 85 (on a gun at pitching facility -- not "daddy radar"!) There aren't that many of them, though. 80 at 14U is pretty rare.

 

I think your son's emphasis on building strength will pay off. 2019Son is just starting to do that -- not with weights yet -- and I think that will help. Hey, he just reached 140 lbs, so, like I said, we've agreed to keep feeding him!


       
I personally gunned a kid 13u true 7th grader at 79.  I am sure somewhere this season he hit 80.  Now that's amazing.

 

These kids are not even in HS yet, nowhere need puberty.  

That's the difference maker.

Eric Cressy like workouts not even in HS yet, entering freshman year 80? Sorry but I cant even wrap my head around half the stuff posted here.

Your kids are going to reach a plateau, you would most likely want it later than sooner, but that is just my opinion from my experience.

 

Originally Posted by TPM:

 

These kids are not even in HS yet, nowhere need puberty.  

That's the difference maker.

Eric Cressy like workouts not even in HS yet, entering freshman year 80? Sorry but I cant even wrap my head around half the stuff posted here.

Your kids are going to reach a plateau, you would most likely want it later than sooner, but that is just my opinion from my experience.

 


I do understand what you're saying, but, a couple of very close observations I've made over the years. First, 13 is not, as you say, "no where near puberty." For most kids, by 13, they are well into puberty. Second, it would be highly unusual for a 13yo throwing 80 at 13/14 to have plateaeud. A review of most kids throwing 90 or so by their senior year, shows (when the information is available) that they were generally throwing high seventies to eighty by the time they were freshmen. Having said that, my own barely-fifteen-year-old doesn't work with weights at all and I am considering keeping it that way, though it's still an open topic. Entering freshman year throwing 80. Somewhat unusual, but not at all unheard of. In the state of Colorado alone, I can name six or seven kids that entered as freshmen throwing 80. Three of which were my students. I would also say that I can count on one hand the number of pitchers I've ever seen go from 72 or less at 14 to 85+ by the end of their high school years. Most hard throwers at 18 were hard throwers at 12/13 and that even includes the little guys that grew late.

I wish I had charted my velocity through the years, and it wasnt common to I have a gun on me until my Jr year of HS (we didnt have quite the number of showcases and resources available now), but going off approximate memory of what I topped out at when a gun was present during a game. I was very young for my class and technically was a class ahead of where I should have been, so the age may be more important than year in school :

 

11: 55 mph (probably cruised 52-53)

12: 60 mph (cruised 57-58)

13: 70 mph (cruised 67-68)

14: 75 mph (HS freshman) (cruised low 70s)

15: 80 (cruised around 78-79)

16: (HS Junior) 84, cruised 80-83

17: (HS Senior) 86, cruised 83-84. Hurt my arm 4 weeks into the season and did not pitch the rest of my high school career. I am guessing all things going well, would have topped off at 87 or 88, as I was just starting to get strong that season.


18: (College freshman): 86, cruised 83-85

19: (Soph) 88, cruised 85-86

20: (Junior) 90 (may have touched 91 or 92, but played in front of a LOT less scouts and our coach didn't believe in having us clocked).

 

My labrum went bye bye early April of junior year. I probably only gained 4 miles per hour between my high school senior year and college junior years. While some may attribute that to reaching a plateau, I think there would have been much more in the tank had I been healthy. After hurting my arm my senior year, got an MRI and my rotator cuff was severely inflamed. Being naive and not thinking long term, got a cortisone shot, got some celebrex, and went on my merry way to college. Never found out what the root of the issue was, and spent a lot of college pitching through pain or a dead arm. The ice, visits to the trainer and band work kept it manageable, and I never really divulged how bad it was unless it was unbearable, and then id just blame it on a "dead arm" spell.

Last edited by RGDeuce

There was a significant amount of local talent concentrated in a 2-3 year age range when I was a kid where I lived. I don't think I ever saw a 12 year old throw 80, but at 13, I played with/against several in Pony league. Tom Wilhelmsen (Mariners) could do it fairly consistently. One of our teammates could as well (he quit ball as a HS frosh, probably throwing 84-85 when he did). My first best friend could, he was 90-94 his senior year and out of nowhere completely lost command of his fastball (ala Mark Wohlers) and fizzled out after one year at a D1 school in California. The hardest 12 year old I saw in person was probably 76-78. The legend on him was he could throw 80 at 12, but I never saw it. I did see him pitch in Pony All Stars as a 13 year old and I was sitting behind the gun getting him at 80 and 81 more than just once or twice. He didn't gain much more, he was still a really good pitcher in high school but was probably 87-89 and ended up being a JUCO shortstop.

 

I remember Ryan Schroyer (ASU, Red Sox AAA, HS teammate of Scott Hairston, Ian Kinsler, Chris & Shelley Duncan, Brian Anderson) throwing harder than all the guys I mentioned when he was 13, so I'd include him as well.

 

There were several others that were probably close to 80 at 13 but just a little shy (JJ Hardy, Brian Anderson (white sox), Jesus Cota (dbacks organization), Will Smith (Marlins/Texas) and a few others.

Last edited by RGDeuce

Roothog,

Don't really agree with some things here, which is my perogative, unless your kids got some rocky mountain high going, 13 years olds may have begun the puberty process but no where near it.

My son left HS with some chin hairs going on, he was touching 91. His biggest years in maturity growth was in college, and he only left with hitting 94, but by 29 he was hitting 96.

What would you suppose was the reason for that?  

 

I have no issue with teaching kids to throw hard, but bottom line is very few will be throwing 90 or plus their senior year. 

How often do you guys put the gun on your kids?

 

Originally Posted by TPM:

Roothog,

Don't really agree with some things here, which is my perogative, unless your kids got some rocky mountain high going, 13 years olds may have begun the puberty process but no where near it.

My son left HS with some chin hairs going on, he was touching 91. His biggest years in maturity growth was in college, and he only left with hitting 94, but by 29 he was hitting 96.

What would you suppose was the reason for that?  

 

I have no issue with teaching kids to throw hard, but bottom line is very few will be throwing 90 or plus their senior year. 

How often do you guys put the gun on your kids?

 

Four times in the last 27 months, as detailed above. Those are the only times 2019Son has been gunned, at least to my knowledge.

Originally Posted by TPM:

Roothog,

Don't really agree with some things here, which is my perogative, unless your kids got some rocky mountain high going, 13 years olds may have begun the puberty process but no where near it.

My son left HS with some chin hairs going on, he was touching 91. His biggest years in maturity growth was in college, and he only left with hitting 94, but by 29 he was hitting 96.

What would you suppose was the reason for that?  

 

I have no issue with teaching kids to throw hard, but bottom line is very few will be throwing 90 or plus their senior year. 

How often do you guys put the gun on your kids?

 

Believe me, I'm not trying to start some kind of weird argument here, but puberty, as defined by the AMA typically starts for boys at about age 11 and ends by age 17. I'm not saying they don't get bigger and stronger, just defining what puberty is and I certainly don't think you mean to contend that your son was still pubescent from college until he was 29. So, I believe you have a valid point, just nitpicking your use of the term puberty as a basis.

 

I have my gun on almost every pitch now that he's in high school. In fact, this summer, I'd say every pitch he's thrown has had a radar gun on it by someone other than me as well. It tells me a lot, from rate of fatigue to rate of progress. He's 15.

Originally Posted by TPM:

       

Roothog,

Don't really agree with some things here, which is my perogative, unless your kids got some rocky mountain high going, 13 years olds may have begun the puberty process but no where near it.

My son left HS with some chin hairs going on, he was touching 91. His biggest years in maturity growth was in college, and he only left with hitting 94, but by 29 he was hitting 96.

What would you suppose was the reason for that?  

 

I have no issue with teaching kids to throw hard, but bottom line is very few will be throwing 90 or plus their senior year. 

How often do you guys put the gun on your kids?

 


       
I think this goes back to the point that has been made on here many times.  This is not your average baseball crowd.  If your kid is 14 and already high 70's lets say his chances are pretty good of getting to 90.  Not automatic by any stretch but not a longshot either.  Will my kid get to 90?  I have no idea.  But its certainly the goal and I don't think it is an insurmountable one either.
Originally Posted by TPM:

Roothog,

Don't really agree with some things here, which is my perogative, unless your kids got some rocky mountain high going, 13 years olds may have begun the puberty process but no where near it.

My son left HS with some chin hairs going on, he was touching 91. His biggest years in maturity growth was in college, and he only left with hitting 94, but by 29 he was hitting 96.

What would you suppose was the reason for that?  

 

I have no issue with teaching kids to throw hard, but bottom line is very few will be throwing 90 or plus their senior year. 

How often do you guys put the gun on your kids?

 

Gotcha. If you meant no where near finished with puberty, I agree.

Another slight uptick today:

 

Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph

April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph

June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo.): 76.1 mph

July 2015 (age 14 yrs, 6 mo.): 77.2 mph

 

Starting last month, 2019Son began going once per week to a TBR-disciple facility, which is where we're getting these recent readings. (And I know there was another thread a few weeks ago asking about Texas Baseball Ranch). So far, so good.

Originally Posted by phillyinNJ:

Have some down time from work and figured I would post the velocity increase of 2018 dating back to last August.  Santa brought some Jaeger bands during christmas and he has been on them almost daily...I'm thinking a major contributing factor to his increase is from them...5'11.5, 145 pounds and turns 15 at the end of next month.  Jugs gun was used (the one that shows both peak and ending velocity).

 

Peak Velocity

Aug 2014 --68MPH

Jan 2015 --69MPH

Jan 23, 2015 --70MPH

Feb 15, 2015 --71MPH

Feb 27, 2015 --72MPH

Mar 14, 2015 --73MPH

Apr 12, 2015 --Pitchers Crow Hop 76MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 78MPH

May 2, 2015 --74MPH

 

I've seen in the search box that a lot of questions about velo improvement, guestimates when older, etc...Just figured I would start a running record of 2018 and for anyone else who would like to start a historical record jump on in...what's worked to increase...what has not.

 

I've heard the weighted balls work well, but haven't allowed 2018 to go there yet...figured I would wait a few years.

Just an update from the post in May...2018 (just turned 15 21 June) 6ft and 150+.

 

We did some velocity today since season is over and he hit 83MPH once and 81 twice....told him had to hit 83 twice for it to count.

 

Pitchers Crow Hop 77MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 81MPH

 

His goal is to hit an outfield velocity of 85 by the PG event next month...I think it is attainable, but we will see.

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:
Originally Posted by InterestedObservor:

What do you attribute the velocity increase to specifically? that's a large jump in 3 months. Something you are doing must be working.

I was thinking the same thing -- a 9 mph increase (74 to 83) from May to July is simply fantastic.  

the 74 in May was from the mound...the 81/83 was outfield velocity (crow hop)...  It is still a 3MPH increase which isn't bad though...probably a combination of J-bands and hitting the gym (legs,upper, & sprinting) has helped.

Originally Posted by TPM:
I hate to tell you this, but its not the same.
What is a pitchers crow hop?

I'm well aware of this...from the original post he did a crowhop from outfield (hit 78) and a pitchers crowhop (hit 76)...the pitchers crowhop is one step from back to front to throw.

I didn't have my mask so i wasn't about to sit behind the plate and catch one in the grill for the sake of getting a velocity.  Reflexes are alot better from 90ft away than they are at 60ft

Peak Velocity

Aug 2014 --68MPH

Jan 2015 --69MPH

Jan 23, 2015 --70MPH

Feb 15, 2015 --71MPH

Feb 27, 2015 --72MPH

Mar 14, 2015 --73MPH

Apr 12, 2015 --Pitchers Crow Hop 76MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 78MPH

May 2, 2015 --74MPH

Aug 15, 2015 --75MPH

Sep 23, 2015 --77MPH (15yrs 3month)

 

2018 saw another increase in velocity today as he hit 77 three times...I saw on Driveline website about how the glutes really activate (they had an infrared camera or something(actually electromyography clothing (EMG)) when pushing of the rubber(during deceleration), so he started incorporating that into his weekly workout...has a goal of 80 by next spring...

 

Last edited by phillyinNJ
Originally Posted by phillyinNJ:

Peak Velocity

Aug 2014 --68MPH

Jan 2015 --69MPH

Jan 23, 2015 --70MPH

Feb 15, 2015 --71MPH

Feb 27, 2015 --72MPH

Mar 14, 2015 --73MPH

Apr 12, 2015 --Pitchers Crow Hop 76MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 78MPH

May 2, 2015 --74MPH

Aug 15, 2015 --75MPH

Sep 23, 2015 --77MPH (15yrs 3month)

 

2018 saw another increase in velocity today as he hit 77 three times...I saw on Driveline website about how the glutes really activate (they had an infrared camera or something) when pushing of the rubber, so he started incorporating that into his weekly workout...has a goal of 80 by next spring...

 

Nice gains. But that's not what I said. It's actually quite counterintuitive. Also, it was EMG clothing.

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...ata-driven-analysis/

 

Video is here:

https://twitter.com/drivelineb...s/624049548776730625

 

Glute activation was strongest during deceleration. Not at any time during force production.

Originally Posted by Kyle Boddy:
Originally Posted by phillyinNJ:

Peak Velocity

Aug 2014 --68MPH

Jan 2015 --69MPH

Jan 23, 2015 --70MPH

Feb 15, 2015 --71MPH

Feb 27, 2015 --72MPH

Mar 14, 2015 --73MPH

Apr 12, 2015 --Pitchers Crow Hop 76MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 78MPH

May 2, 2015 --74MPH

Aug 15, 2015 --75MPH

Sep 23, 2015 --77MPH (15yrs 3month)

 

2018 saw another increase in velocity today as he hit 77 three times...I saw on Driveline website about how the glutes really activate (they had an infrared camera or something) when pushing of the rubber, so he started incorporating that into his weekly workout...has a goal of 80 by next spring...

 

Nice gains. But that's not what I said. It's actually quite counterintuitive. Also, it was EMG clothing.

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...ata-driven-analysis/

 

Video is here:

https://twitter.com/drivelineb...s/624049548776730625

 

Glute activation was strongest during deceleration. Not at any time during force production.

my apologies...thought it was push off (i read early morning a few weeks ago) --sorry about that.  regardless, he started to incorporate some work with the glutes and it seems to have worked out nicely.  I am going to adjust my original post.  Thanks.

Last edited by phillyinNJ
Originally Posted by phillyinNJ:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boddy:
Originally Posted by phillyinNJ:

Peak Velocity

Aug 2014 --68MPH

Jan 2015 --69MPH

Jan 23, 2015 --70MPH

Feb 15, 2015 --71MPH

Feb 27, 2015 --72MPH

Mar 14, 2015 --73MPH

Apr 12, 2015 --Pitchers Crow Hop 76MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 78MPH

May 2, 2015 --74MPH

Aug 15, 2015 --75MPH

Sep 23, 2015 --77MPH (15yrs 3month)

 

2018 saw another increase in velocity today as he hit 77 three times...I saw on Driveline website about how the glutes really activate (they had an infrared camera or something) when pushing of the rubber, so he started incorporating that into his weekly workout...has a goal of 80 by next spring...

 

Nice gains. But that's not what I said. It's actually quite counterintuitive. Also, it was EMG clothing.

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...ata-driven-analysis/

 

Video is here:

https://twitter.com/drivelineb...s/624049548776730625

 

Glute activation was strongest during deceleration. Not at any time during force production.

my apologies...thought it was push off (i read early morning a few weeks ago) --sorry about that.  regardless, he started to incorporate some work with the glutes and it seems to have worked out nicely.  I am going to adjust my original post.  Thanks.

Glute Ham raises are a great exercise.  Builds strength through a range of motion.  Difficult to do correctly, without "sliding" at the knees.  Good idea to start with a variation on the ground.  

I completely understand the fascination with training, tracking and attaining velo in youths/HS pitchers today. We were there, at least the training part and my son realized some of those gains. I wont say you "need" velo to get a scholarship but D1s like velo, tempo, mound presence and athleticism (how the arm works).

 

All that being said, my son is now a frosh @ a Power 5 and they are focused on reducing the possibilities of mechanical flaws and simpifying his pitching motion so he can be more "accurate". He has never been wild or innaccurate and has had good velo and a great curve however in D1 the window is smaller and a mistake here or there costs you a ballgame.

 

Good luck with the grind, i hope all of the younger kids grow in their baseball journey and get schollys. I am a fan of pitchers.

Last edited by Shoveit4Ks
Scotty83 posted:
Started gunning my 2019 in 2013 when he was 12. He learned a change up and wanted to see the actual difference. This was in March right before the middle school season started. We did it again the next two years just to see what the improvement might be. He has worked on mechanics the last two year but we haven't done any velocity training and do not plan on it until that elbow growth plate closes. This was with a stalker.

2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph

Pretty sure all his gains have came from growth. Most mechanical changes have been accuracy related or just being more concistant in what he was already doing.

What's funny is I've talked to a half a dozen kids or so who say they touch 80 so since my son throws harder than them he must be in the 80's. I just smile and say yep he must be hahaha.

We did our yearly gunning so I thought I would update. Here's what I had posted before. 

2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph

This year:

2016  15  years old 6'0" 145 lbs  77 mph

It looks like the velocity gains from growth have slowed down. This coming up winter the plan is to get some coaching on mechanics for velocity. I still think he's still growing and don't want to start velocity training other than mechanics until that growth plate closes. Perhaps the next off season. 

 

2022dad posted:
My 2022 (11.5YO) doesn't like his CU bc he doesn't think there's enough difference bw it and this FB. I reluctantly dragged the Jugs out yesterday to see just what the numbers show. He's right. His circle CU sits at 50-52 and his FB sits at 54-55 and tops out at 59. I guess he needs to work a little more to get his FB to ride closer to his max. Unfortunately, he's pretty accurate at 54-55 but his location suffers above that number.

Scotty, I'm glad you dragged this one back up. It looks like you son's velocity has slowed vs height, but only a very slight amount. He looks to be a skinny kid. When he puts some weight on I bet you see his velocity jump. 

My son has grown 1.5 inches since last June (5'4" now). His velocity was 64-65 tops the last time I checked a couple of months ago. Based on what I saw Thursday night, I'm thinking he's added a couple more MPH. He's been on a Thrower's Ten type regimen for the for just over a year. I keep waiting for cousin Puberty to show, but so far he hasn't shown any signs. I was late bloomer and I'm thinking he's got this from me. I grew 2 inches after I got to college. 

With his high school season over, 2019Son went back to the throwing/pitching facility from last summer for the first time since July. The progress so far:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph

He was pretty happy about 80. Those are all from a mound. FWIW, they also did some kind of crow-hop throw tonight, in which he hit 82.6 mph.

Long way to go . . .

Hummmm, not sure what to make of this thread... but here goes..

2018  these are top velo's  reduce by 2-3 for cruising speeds

in 2013 he was  82

in 2014 he was  85

in 2015 he was  89

in 2016 he was  92

works out with weights in the fall, takes a 3 months off from throwing , does a lot of long toss, no weighted balls, no bands, no pitching coach.  He does fish a lot , kayak's and goes camping.  We do not own a radar gun...

Having said that.... velo is only part of it....  the minors are full of guys throwing 94+ that cannot get anyone out.

bacdorslider posted:

Hummmm, not sure what to make of this thread... but here goes..

2018  these are top velo's  reduce by 2-3 for cruising speeds

in 2013 he was  82

in 2014 he was  85

in 2015 he was  89

in 2016 he was  92

works out with weights in the fall, takes a 3 months off from throwing , does a lot of long toss, no weighted balls, no bands, no pitching coach.  He does fish a lot , kayak's and goes camping.  We do not own a radar gun...

Having said that.... velo is only part of it....  the minors are full of guys throwing 94+ that cannot get anyone out.

So true.  The MLB is full of mid to high 80's mph pitchers that can get people out. This summer I am going to work with my son on more movement and better location for his pitches.   I was at a Arkansas - Alabama game where the Arkansas pitcher was cruising at 91 mph and had 3 HR's hit off of him.  

Having said that my 2017 son's big jump in velocity happened his sophomore year, mostly due to football workouts and being the QB.  I'm hoping to see a bit more velocity improvement this summer now that his pitch count will be managed correctly.  

bacdorslider posted:

Hummmm, not sure what to make of this thread... but here goes..

 

bacdorslider, I'm not the OP, but I just thought of this thread as a place newbies or those just curious could see how other kids progressed over time. Just because a lot of parents are curious about these things. 

And so the reason I posted my kid's age down to the month is so the newbies/curious would have a reference point (e.g., there can be a big difference between 13 yrs 0 months and 13 yrs 11 months). And even grade can be misleading, because some kids graduate high school at 19 and some at 17. I suppose height and weight could be useful, too, because those things have an impact.

I dunno, maybe 5 years from now there'll be a parent of a 12 year old coming to HSBBW for the first time, and wondering how their son might develop over time and they'll find this thread. Of course, every kid is different, YMMV, etc., but it might be useful or at least interesting to them?

P.S. -- at the rate your 2018 is going, 100 mph by senior year is not out of the question!

35 YO - 65MPH at a carnival and I was throwing gas!

40 YO - 75MPH : Improved since I was throwing so much BP to LLers

48 Y0 - 78MPH: Improved mechanics, Long Toss, and moved mound up to 30ft for HSers. By you!

52YO - 40MPH: On a good day. I need to get a labium surgery since I have thrown so much BP I can't hardly get my arm over my head.  Jobe center says I should be back up to 65MPH if I work really hard for the next 1.5 years post surgery. Once healed I will go to Jaeger camp for LT, go to Driveline and get into their weighted ball program, as well as get into a Cressy program to get back in tip top shape. Does anyone know a good pitching coach in Los Angeles ? I got to get ready for the Grandkids. (hopefully)

Has anyone else done these programs? Do you think I could get back up to 78MPH? I really want to blow away those Tballers so they can tell me "you da man"!

BOF,

Got a job for you when you are ready!

Listen folks, dont get offended, but measuring velocity of young pitchers really doesnt mean all that much, yet. As your pitcher grows his arm and strength will as well.  

Then all of a sudden it stops. 

Next time you are watching a college game or a ML game take a look at the pitchers lower body, thats where the power comes from.  It takes years before the mechanics and the conditioning come together.  Some players, like bacdor's son are blessed with what is called, pitchers frames.  He is doing what we did, let the body grow and develop before the real work begins.  He is projectible. He will be at his peak development probably at 23, 24. Thats like 8 years from now.  

So creating a " reference point" before HS is useless, all bodies are different, its all in the genes, puberty,  years of hard work, the perfect mechanics.  

JMO

 

TPM posted:

BOF,

Got a job for you when you are ready!

Listen folks, dont get offended, but measuring velocity of young pitchers really doesnt mean all that much, yet. As your pitcher grows his arm and strength will as well.  

Then all of a sudden it stops. 

Next time you are watching a college game or a ML game take a look at the pitchers lower body, thats where the power comes from.  It takes years before the mechanics and the conditioning come together.  Some players, like bacdor's son are blessed with what is called, pitchers frames.  He is doing what we did, let the body grow and develop before the real work begins.  He is projectible. He will be at his peak development probably at 23, 24. Thats like 8 years from now.  

So creating a " reference point" before HS is useless, all bodies are different, its all in the genes, puberty,  years of hard work, the perfect mechanics.  

JMO

 

No argument here. Like I said, i thought this thread might prove interesting in the future to others to see how development progressed. If it's not interesting to them, no harm. If it's "useless," well, it'll hardly be the only useless thing to be found on the internet.

In fact, by doing a search it's possible to find somewhat similar discussions in years past -- I remember looking up the postings of a HSBBW-er before my time called "Bum" and reading about "Bum Jr" and how he progressed (lots of long toss, IIRC). I found it interesting.

In fact, here's a quote from a post by Bum back in 2008 that rang true to me:

"I understand the motivation of 14 y.o. pitchers -- and fathers of 14 y.o. pitchers -- to want to know their son's velocity. I went through the same thought process myself with my son at that time. After all, these kids are looking to get a spot on the high school team, so they feel they need to know

*           *          *          *

If you're 14 y.o., or the parent of a 14 y.o., I will give you the advise I have given others: Velocity is not the show. It is the ticket to the show. You must be obsessed with velocity, but you must be equally obsessed with the art of pitching. Again, the concepts are not mutually exclusive. However, please don't think that, if you don't have superstar velocity at 14 y.o. you can't get it if you work your tail off. Some kids get it later. Some never get it. There's no rhyme nor reason to this thing.

So.. now that you know velocity is important, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to go get it?"

2019Dad posted:

P.S. --

In scripture it says there is nothing new under the sun. 10 years ago the HSBBW community was discussing a topic entitled "Average Velocity Increases":

http://community.hsbaseballweb...-velocity-increases?

I'll give TPM her due: her postings now are consistent with 10 years ago!!

Velocity will always be discussed here. Its whats discussed thwt is important.  I dont think its important until a pitcher reaches HS and shows ability to go forward. 

Yes, I stand my ground now just as I did 10 years ago.

Not being disrespectful here, but those dads who said you must be obsessed with velocity and worked their guys to do something they really couldnt, most never developed the velocity needed and some where hurt, I think one of their sons never made it to play in college.  

You can be obsessed all you want, but its difficult to tell whats happenig while the pitcher is still growing.

JMO

TPM posted:
2019Dad posted:

P.S. --

In scripture it says there is nothing new under the sun. 10 years ago the HSBBW community was discussing a topic entitled "Average Velocity Increases":

http://community.hsbaseballweb...-velocity-increases?

I'll give TPM her due: her postings now are consistent with 10 years ago!!

Velocity will always be discussed here. Its whats discussed thwt is important.  I dont think its important until a pitcher reaches HS and shows ability to go forward. 

Yes, I stand my ground now just as I did 10 years ago.

Not being disrespectful here, but those dads who said you must be obsessed with velocity and worked their guys to do something they really couldnt, most never developed the velocity needed and some where hurt, I think one of their sons never made it to play in college.  

You can be obsessed all you want, but its difficult to tell whats happenig while the pitcher is still growing.

JMO

Well, I don't personally know any of those dads who 10 years ago said you must be obsessed with velocity -- my quote was from Bum, and I think his son played major D1 baseball, was drafted, and played a couple years in the minors. Not such a bad outcome, right?

Bums son transfered from the pac12 school that recruited him to another program. He didn't get enough innings he felt he should have. 

He was drafted as a 5th year Senior ( had knee surgery) and I believe never got passed A ball. Not that is a bad thing. 

Outcomes mean different things to different people. Bums son Rusty was a soft tosser who got players out.   With all that talk about increasing velo, i dont think he made it passed 90. But thats my point, one doesnt have to be a successful pitcher to hit 90 or above. 

Just ask my friend justbaseball!!!

I liked Bum, but I have issues when someone pops in here when their player does well but disappears when things get tough. 

Me, I have been here through the good bad and ugly and that's no joke.

 

 

Last edited by TPM

Having a gun on every single pitch of a HS 15 yr old is crazy, IMO. Apparently this will continue in Summer ball too. There r other ways to see if kid is getting tired. We had a player on sons summer team who pitched in mid 90's  and he went on to P at a top 3 school in nation, and never once did I see his dad w a gun, or even discuss his velocity. The scouts, recruiters did that. He was a great guy to be around because baseball never consumed him, it was his sons life not his.

all this velocity talk is why we have parents putting 9 yr olds on guns. P is so much more than a number(s). 

Just saw a kid this week finish HS JV season w a good number of innings pitched and now he plans on pitching on two Summer teams. What are people thinking?  Developing a P is a marathon not a sprint. So many guys develop in college, don't think little Johnny must be throwing    

Pro numbers in HS or he has no chance at a good college career.

honestly, I would be more worried about injuries than a number. 

As a dad of a kid with pretty high velo for his age, I can tell you that it makes me nervous. Per his doctor, his growth plates are still open so he's at risk.  He does not pitch a lot and that's by design. 

I can tell you that I have never gunned him and the only reason I know what he throws is because we play at LakePoint a lot and every pitch is gunned and displayed on the scoreboard. 

He has never done a throwing program or velo training and he doesn't pick up a baseball from end of July through mid-December.  

"start a historical record jump on in...what's worked to increase...what has not"....

This was the original reason for starting this thread...was hoping to track some historical velo references and maybe post a thing or two that we tried out which worked or not to give those looking some type of additional information from the countless information that is already on the website.  Do i personally think you should gun before HS...no, it probably makes no sense, but to each his own.

2018 just recovered from a hand break that he received during the first scrimmage of the school year (he has been throwing for three weeks), so he still has some strength recovery to go.  Had him out yesterday to check where he was at...he is 15yrs 11mths as of yesterday.

************************************************************************************

Peak Velocity

Aug 2014 --68MPH

Jan 2015 --69MPH

Jan 23, 2015 --70MPH

Feb 15, 2015 --71MPH

Feb 27, 2015 --72MPH

Mar 14, 2015 --73MPH

Apr 12, 2015 --Pitchers Crow Hop 76MPH; Outfield Crow Hop 78MPH

May 2, 2015 --74MPH

Aug 15, 2015 --75MPH

Sep 23, 2015 --77MPH (15yrs 3month)

May 22, 2016 --Outfield throw 81.6MPH; Mound 76.8MPH (upgraded to Stalker Sport 2!)

As time goes by, i'm sure technology will advance and allow for more analytics/statistics and kids/parents will learn and adjust training from that data. I recall sitting in Jupiter a few years ago and watching my son throw a few innings vs the EvoShield Canes. Trackman was relatively new and i paid the fee to get the few metrics of live data they offered for pitchers. I'm kinda geeky. It was fun to watch the different pitches, velo, spin rate and then see "where he stacked up with the best" after the tourney. All in all, he was right up there with the best of who attended but was not tall enough to excite the pro scouts to consider drafting him. He had the velo, the spin rate, the + curve and not the frame. He probably lacked real pitching experience, lacked a solid 3rd pitch and needed time to develop. Everything turned out okay. I say track all the data you want and use it, if that works for your kid....technology is cool.

By the way, our best pitcher on son's college team is a mid/upper 80s, 6'5" LHP. He #carves. 

Shove, 

Having your son stats tracked by track man in HS serves a purpose, because it gives you and him and coaches an idea of where he fits in for recruiting. This was more or less about tracking young players.  

Reality is most will have gains before HS.  It is the natural progression for most, but 9 out of 10 will stop that progression until they begin really good conditioning program. I think that most will agree that when your sons return from college for Thanksgiving you are amazed how they look. Also pitchers will pick up a few mph and hitters a bit more power. 

Yes, I have posted the best pitcher at Clemson doesn't go near 90. He has actually gained some mph with improved mechanics.  Are scouts intetested. I sat behind a few scouts who were filming him during FSU series, so yes, definetly. HE GETS HITTERS OUT!  

So once again we are back to the importance of velocity. If your son can get hitters out at the next level, he doesn't have to hit 95,96. Only a very few will ever.

Let your young pitcher learn how to pitch!

Can't make the tourney, add me in for cheers from Fl. Wairing for regional site, hopefully at home.

I don't know if I can add to this discussion but I will try.  I fully understand the need to know where your son is at in his development.  For those of you that have one son maybe two?  I have four.... and all for are different.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses All matured and developed at different times. My sons are between 6'2 and 6'5 and every time they grew a little we had to re-learn the mechanics for the new frame.  

I have hard throwers, soft throwers,  fastball/slider at 3/4 and fastball/12-6 over the top.  In fact the biggest one is 2016 at 6'4 200 and throws the slowest.  I guess my point is you can drive yourself crazy with velo numbers but it really is going to be what it is going to be.  You can add some as you get older and get man muscle but don't expect any huge gains.  Instead learn how to pitch....learn how to to get the batters out. 

It seems with all this talk about 9,10,11, 12 velo.... what type of mound are they throwing off of.... 50 feet?

One more thing, in years past I was sooooo worried about 2013 and 2014 that I kinda let 2016 and 2018 just do their thing .... I went with the older two.. dragging them around the southeast watching every scout, radar gun etc... trying to increase velo... taking pitching lessons.... from USA to Area Code to PG

While my wife took the younger two to their local games and maybe an out of town tourney. I just thought logically that when the younger two were older I would work with them.  

I would call my wife and rant and go on and on.... 2013 did this 2014 didn't do that....  and then when she told me about the younger boys it was like , they did fine...we don't play til later tomorrow, so we are going to sleep in and go swimming... SWIMMING , are you crazy on game day !

My point is stop stressing about all this velo stuff at the younger ages.. enjoy the ride... what will be will be, it goes by fast.... and remember the thing tht is more important than throwing 90+  GRADES !

Oh and im 6'4 250  and my velo is 55  , tore three cuffs 6 years ago.... talk about pain

Last edited by bacdorslider
bacdorslider posted:

I don't know if I can add to this discussion but I will try.  I fully understand the need to know where your son is at in his development.  For those of you that have one son maybe two?  I have four.... and all for are different.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses All matured and developed at different times. My sons are between 6'2 and 6'5 and every time they grew a little we had to re-learn the mechanics for the new frame.  

I have hard throwers, soft throwers,  fastball/slider at 3/4 and fastball/12-6 over the top.  In fact the biggest one is 2016 at 6'4 200 and throws the slowest.  I guess my point is you can drive yourself crazy with velo numbers but it really is going to be what it is going to be.  You can add some as you get older and get man muscle but don't expect any huge gains.  Instead learn how to pitch....learn how to to get the batters out. 

It seems with all this talk about 9,10,11, 12 velo.... what type of mound are they throwing off of.... 50 feet?

One more thing, in years past I was sooooo worried about 2013 and 2014 that I kinda let 2016 and 2018 just do their thing .... I went with the older two.. dragging them around the southeast watching every scout, radar gun etc... trying to increase velo... taking pitching lessons.... from USA to Area Code to PG

While my wife took the younger two to their local games and maybe an out of town tourney. I just thought logically that when the younger two were older I would work with them.  

I would call my wife and rant and go on and on.... 2013 did this 2014 didn't do that....  and then when she told me about the younger boys it was like , they did fine...we don't play til later tomorrow, so we are going to sleep in and go swimming... SWIMMING , are you crazy on game day !

My point is stop stressing about all this velo stuff at the younger ages.. enjoy the ride... what will be will be, it goes by fast.... and remember the thing tht is more important than throwing 90+  GRADES !

Oh and im 6'4 250  and my velo is 55  , tore three cuffs 6 years ago.... talk about pain

This so true, he was a crazy person with the first two!!!!  

I meant to update this a couple months ago but haven't had time with ball season going on lol. Anyway this was previous post. 


2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph 

2016 15 years old 6'0" 145 lbs 77 mph

this year

2017 16 years old 6'1" 150 lbs 83mph

So the growth seems to have stopped which leaves the gains to mechanical work. This winter he will actually do velocity work since I believe the growth plate has closed. If he can get one more 5 to 6 mph jump this off season. I think he will be pretty happy but those bigger jumps may have come to an end. We will see.

 

 

Scotty83 posted:

 

So the growth seems to have stopped which leaves the gains to mechanical work. 

Plenty of growth can happen in terms of muscle though.  6'1" 150 leaves plenty of room to fill out.   If he can increase muscle through weight lifting, especially in the lower half, combined with improved mechanics as you mentioned, that will certainly help

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

2019Dad posted:

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

Wow, that is a darn near linear progression...the scientist in me is drooling at the pretty data points!

2019Dad posted:

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

That is almost spot on to my son's progression.  

SultanofSwat posted:

'Strength' doesn't make you throw faster.

More mass + technique = velocity

You can hit 90 at 145 pounds.

 

While I believe 145# person can throw 90 I question about strength not making you throw faster. 

Force equals mass times acceleration, and you can accelerate faster with stronger muscles right? No seriously, I'm asking.

2019Dad posted:
SultanofSwat posted:

'Strength' doesn't make you throw faster.

More mass + technique = velocity

You can hit 90 at 145 pounds.

 

Ah, fair enough. Lifting might help a boy increase mass, though (with proper nutrition and rest).

Here's what strength increase - in the right places and when done without compromising mobility - does do for velocity. Increased muscle strength, especially in the shoulders and among the 10 muscles that support the ucl throughout the forearm, will allow a pitcher's body to handle more stress and therefore allows for increased velocity. Your body simply won't allow the arm to move faster than it can physically sustain. Your system governs and regulate such movement patterns. More strength = greater ability to handle the greater stresses of increased internal rotation that are necessary for increased velocity.

It's got to be mostly from his workout program at college because anyone who sees him throw will tell you his technique is awful, but at this point, there's not much reason to mess with it.  Had a former coach from his travel days (former MLB pitcher) tell him he has an easy 2-3 more mph just by getting his legs involved.  I am not kidding when I say his stride is less than 3 feet, even from the windup.  It basically looks like he is standing in the yard playing pitch and catch with someone.  I think it really deceives batters because it doesn't look like he's even trying lol

roothog66 posted:
TPM posted:

Interesting. Developing strength in the arm doesnt make one throw faster or harder.

While it doesn' make  one throw faster, it does allow the ucl to take higher stress loads. In other words, necessary but not sufficient.

I would agree to that, strengthening and stabilizing the shoulder takes stress off the ucl. 

But from my understanding most young pitchers, do not work enough on lower body, and stride, proper mechanics. Thats why we are seeing so many injuries before they even reach college.

JMO

 

 

TPM posted:
roothog66 posted:
TPM posted:

Interesting. Developing strength in the arm doesnt make one throw faster or harder.

While it doesn' make  one throw faster, it does allow the ucl to take higher stress loads. In other words, necessary but not sufficient.

I would agree to that, strengthening and stabilizing the shoulder takes stress off the ucl. 

But from my understanding most young pitchers, do not work enough on lower body, and stride, proper mechanics. Thats why we are seeing so many injuries before they even reach college.

JMO

 

 

Most of the hard throwers you see at the high school level these days actually do work pretty hard on lower body strengthening. However, while there are some universally agreed on markers, I won't hold my breath waiting for a consensus, sustained idea on what constitutes proper mechanics - been chasing that concept for about 35 years and every time I think I've got it, it moves on me.

bacdorslider posted:

You can only develop what is in the arm..... you can work hard and get to 86-88  , maybe in college 91-92  anything after that at is the way the body and arm works....  that's why some can and some can't .   some can jump out of the gym some can't .  some run a 6.2  60 and some cannot

Yes but for any individual kid, no one can be certain what is ultimately in the arm when they are young. Buckeye's kid is a great example.

CaCO3Girl posted:
SultanofSwat posted:

'Strength' doesn't make you throw faster.

More mass + technique = velocity

You can hit 90 at 145 pounds.

 

While I believe 145# person can throw 90 I question about strength not making you throw faster. 

Force equals mass times acceleration, and you can accelerate faster with stronger muscles right? No seriously, I'm asking.

Given that the mass is constant in baseball and further given that the mass in question (5.25 oz average) is not particularly large, that does leave us with acceleration.  The best point to measure acceleration would be at the point of the ball itself.  

Jumping around, one might ask why do pitchers work on their lower half?  Why do they work on their core?  Why do they work on their stride and hip turn?  In talking to dads with young kids, I like to use the analogy of "snapping" the beach towel that we did as kids (always fun when we drew blood).  There was always that big kid that couldn't quite get his towel folded just right or couldn't sequence his whip action while little Johnny perfected both and was most dangerous.  The acceleration at the point of the ball upon release depends on maybe 100 actions up until that point - some major, many minor.  At 10 years of age, there will be kids who do struggle with the mass of the baseball, therefore oftentimes the bigger kids are "better" pitchers as they have more arm strength.  Once arm strength become "sufficient" (wide range maybe 12-15 yo) then mechanics largely take over and will dictate which pitchers will throw with the most velocity.  There will always be some kids who keep up just throwing with their arms, but they simply have great arms.

Bringing this back to "strength", a level of strength well above "sufficient" will serve a pitcher well as will developing all the muscles used in the pitching motion to this level.  The comment about bodybuilders is the extreme where strength training (or more appropriately bodybuilding) actually decreases one's ability to accelerate using certain muscles as muscle mass and muscle tightness work against the pitcher.  I guess my question would be how does a pitcher determine their level of optimum strength of the various parts of the body.  Lastly, does some additional strength (above "optimum" level for velocity) aid in preventing injury.

CaCO3Girl posted:
2019Dad posted:

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

Wow, that is a darn near linear progression...the scientist in me is drooling at the pretty data points!

Update with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph
  • Nov 2017 (age 16 yrs, 10 mo.): 90 mph

Only one pitch at 90, otherwise high was 88, but still a big day for the kid. Lifting appears to be helping.  

TPM posted:

The pitchers who throw with their arms will get injured.

Determing optimum level of strength is probably usually determined by professionals.  

JMO

 

My son worked with a pitching coach who preached "pitch from your legs." The guy was drafted out of high school and nothing hit home harder than the day he said "I never believed it when people said to pitch from your legs. That's why I'm here teaching you to pitch instead of playing pro ball somewhere."

This is why I created the King of the Hill Ground Force Trainer.......I had a 14 pitcher throwing 80mph which is pretty good. I also had a 18yr old 6'5" 180....dunk a basketball and throw 88 from outfield and couldn't get off 81mph off mound. When the 14 year old was pitching he would drive my portable pitching mound backwards 1" to 1 1/2" when he pitched. Which told me he was creating ground force into the front bracing leg which causes the hips to rotate. The 18 year old......no drive and never created a drag....just rotated off the rubber. 

The next 2 lessons our focus was driving the pitching mound back.......result after 2 weeks: 20 pitches he topped out at 87 mph with 3 pitches the rest at 83-86. Later in the summer He eventually topped out at 91mph and sat 86-87mph.

More and more studies are finding out that the harder throwers excel in Vertical and horizontal jumps which tell us they have elite power and explosion........now to put this into play on a pitching mound you have to get them to create a solid LOWER HALF to CREATE POWER and upon landing be able to brace up to TRANSFER that into rotational  energy to rotate the hips causing more separation!

Again.....this is why I created the King of the Hill! It will help coaches train kids to "USE THE LEGS!

Crushing the MLB teams and Major Colleges!

2019Dad posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
2019Dad posted:

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

Wow, that is a darn near linear progression...the scientist in me is drooling at the pretty data points!

Update with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph
  • Nov 2017 (age 16 yrs, 10 mo.): 90 mph

Only one pitch at 90, otherwise high was 88, but still a big day for the kid. Lifting appears to be helping.  

Congrats on the continued growth!  Looking forward to how this impacts his "recruiting" value.  Thanks for documenting the journey..  

Do you have an idea on his weight and height at these milestones?  That would be kind of cool to see.  

 

2019 RHP 

  • May 2016 (Age 14 yrs, 11 mths) (Size 5'11", 150 lbs) 78 mph
  • May 2017 (Age 15 yrs, 11 mths) (Size 6'2", 155lbs) 81 mph 
  • Oct 2017 (Age 16 yrs, 4 mths) (Size 6'2", 165 lbs) 84 mph

Keep working on getting stronger, bigger, faster.  His current goal is to have a role on VS in spring with  25 plus innings in league play.  Looking to be 175 lbs in spring.  Sitting 84 85 touching 87.  

real green posted:
 

Congrats on the continued growth!  Looking forward to how this impacts his "recruiting" value.  Thanks for documenting the journey..  

Do you have an idea on his weight and height at these milestones?  That would be kind of cool to see.  

 

I will guesstimate it for you. Not too sure about the first couple -- my memory could be off a bit! -- but I know he was 140 lbs when he started high school (Sept 2015)

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph; 5'3" 105 lbs
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph; 5'6" 115 lbs
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph 5'10" 135 lbs
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph; 6'0" 155 lbs
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph; 6'1" 167 lbs
  • Nov 2017 (age 16 yrs, 10 mo.): 90 mph; 6'1" 173 lbs 

Wants to be 180 by spring season. He'll turn 17 in about 10 weeks.

[Edited because my wife corrected me on the first couple ones!]

Last edited by 2019Dad
bacdorslider posted:

are these cruising numbers?

Nope. Top velo on that particular day (just like a PG or PBR headline number). Like RealGreen's, my son's numbers are also in games, including scrimmages. Son's HS varsity has a Stalker Pro and charts every pitch in a game or scrimmage (though they do not use radar for JV or frosh).

FWIW, and I don't know if this is generally true but it has held for my son so far -- a new top velo, which is an outlier at the time, becomes more "normal" as he continues to develop. For example, this past February he pitched in a varsity scrimmage and threw one pitch at 86, but otherwise his high that day was 84. Now some time has passed, and 86 is normal -- on Saturday he threw 13 fastballs and I think 86 was the velo on 5 of them. So now 90 is an outlier for him (the next highest pitch on Saturday was 88). So it seems like there's a jump, and then sort of a catch-up period.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well, or if you have seen that with any of your sons' development.


I will guesstimate it for you. Not too sure about the first couple -- my memory could be off a bit! -- but I know he was 140 lbs when he started high school (Sept 2015)

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph; 5'3" 105 lbs
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph; 5'6" 115 lbs
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph 5'10" 135 lbs
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph; 6'0" 155 lbs
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph; 6'1" 167 lbs
  • Nov 2017 (age 16 yrs, 10 mo.): 90 mph; 6'1" 173 lbs 

Wants to be 180 by spring season. He'll turn 17 in about 10 weeks.

[Edited because my wife corrected me on the first couple ones!]

These numbers (and size/weight) are almost identical to what my son was, though your son got taller a little quicker than my son, he was maybe 5'9 when he committed the summer after his junior year, graduated just under 6' and may be 6'1 now.   He hit 90 in the season opener his senior year of HS....was 88 pretty regular during that season and threw 90 to get his 11th strikeout on his 90th pitch in the last inning of the District semi-final game in his last HS outing.   He's added about 12-15 pounds since he's been to college and was up to 92 last summer.  Crazy thing is that he NEVER touched a weight until he got to college.   Nothing but a lot of long toss, plenty of hitting in the cage and pitching 2-3 times a week, even during the off-season.....oh and the fact that he finally grew lol

Looking back at one of my earlier posts....i had to chuckle, i can be silly sometimes. I know i updated my son on here similarly in respect to a chronology/velo starting at 15 i think,  but figured this thread may survive the test of time. He is a Jr in college this year and hoping to be a better "pitcher"....back end guy, starter if needed. Who knows where he will get slotted (i think bullpen).

In the last Purple & Orange world series to close the fall i got this feedback on his outing:

Sitting at 94-95 with good command

12-to-6 curveballs at 79-80

He has added an 89-90 cutter

He's told me his CU is 86-88

To quote 2020- you're always climbing the mountain...here's to climbing.

Last edited by Shoveit4Ks
Shoveit4Ks posted:

Looking back at one of my earlier posts....i had to chuckle, i can be silly sometimes. I know i updated my son on here similarly in respect to a chronology/velo starting at 15 i think,  but figured this thread may survive the test of time. He is a Jr in college this year and hoping to be a better "pitcher"....back end guy, starter if needed. Who knows where he will get slotted (i think bullpen).

In the last Purple & Orange world series to close the fall i got this feedback on his outing:

Sitting at 94-95 with good command

12-to-6 curveballs at 79-80

He has added an 89-90 cutter

He's told me his CU is 86-88

To quote Root- you're always climbing the mountain...here's to climbing.

C'mon, ShoveIt! You can't tease us like that. Sitting 95, you have to spill the beans on what he's touching . . . 98? 99? 

Congrats, that is amazing stuff.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Looking back at one of my earlier posts....i had to chuckle, i can be silly sometimes. I know i updated my son on here similarly in respect to a chronology/velo starting at 15 i think,  but figured this thread may survive the test of time. He is a Jr in college this year and hoping to be a better "pitcher"....back end guy, starter if needed. Who knows where he will get slotted (i think bullpen).

In the last Purple & Orange world series to close the fall i got this feedback on his outing:

Sitting at 94-95 with good command

12-to-6 curveballs at 79-80

He has added an 89-90 cutter

He's told me his CU is 86-88

To quote Root- you're always climbing the mountain...here's to climbing.

Awesome!

RichDunno posted:

This is why I created the King of the Hill Ground Force Trainer.......I had a 14 pitcher throwing 80mph which is pretty good. I also had a 18yr old 6'5" 180....dunk a basketball and throw 88 from outfield and couldn't get off 81mph off mound. When the 14 year old was pitching he would drive my portable pitching mound backwards 1" to 1 1/2" when he pitched. Which told me he was creating ground force into the front bracing leg which causes the hips to rotate. The 18 year old......no drive and never created a drag....just rotated off the rubber. 

The next 2 lessons our focus was driving the pitching mound back.......result after 2 weeks: 20 pitches he topped out at 87 mph with 3 pitches the rest at 83-86. Later in the summer He eventually topped out at 91mph and sat 86-87mph.

More and more studies are finding out that the harder throwers excel in Vertical and horizontal jumps which tell us they have elite power and explosion........now to put this into play on a pitching mound you have to get them to create a solid LOWER HALF to CREATE POWER and upon landing be able to brace up to TRANSFER that into rotational  energy to rotate the hips causing more separation!

Again.....this is why I created the King of the Hill! It will help coaches train kids to "USE THE LEGS!

Crushing the MLB teams and Major Colleges!

Yep, leg drive and separation are very important for velocity, AND to prevent sudden sharp stress on UCL caused by "tall and fall" delivery. 

July 2013 (age 14 yrs, 4 mo.): 71 mph; 5'3'' 118 lbs
May 2015 (age 16 yrs, 2 mo.): 80 mph; 5'11'' 164 lbs
June 2016 (age 17 yrs, 2 mo.): 86 mph; 6'1'' 178 lbs
July 2017 (age 18 yrs, 4 mo.): 92 mph; 6'3'' 190 lbs

October 2017-UCL sprain

The summer 2017 gains were from getting stronger AND getting lower half working. He has very powerful legs. Unfortunately this fall a pitching coach made him go back to a “balance point” delivery, i.e. no leg drive, and made him reduce his hip / shoulder separation. The result was a drop in velo followed by a UCL sprain and he will miss the next 3-5 months. He will never listen to a pitching coach again that doesn't understand leg drive and separation.

PS: I love this thread. I thought I was the only dad in the world that kept these kind of stats on his son.

2019Dad posted:
Shoveit4Ks posted:

Looking back at one of my earlier posts....i had to chuckle, i can be silly sometimes. I know i updated my son on here similarly in respect to a chronology/velo starting at 15 i think,  but figured this thread may survive the test of time. He is a Jr in college this year and hoping to be a better "pitcher"....back end guy, starter if needed. Who knows where he will get slotted (i think bullpen).

In the last Purple & Orange world series to close the fall i got this feedback on his outing:

Sitting at 94-95 with good command

12-to-6 curveballs at 79-80

He has added an 89-90 cutter

He's told me his CU is 86-88

To quote Root- you're always climbing the mountain...here's to climbing.

C'mon, ShoveIt! You can't tease us like that. Sitting 95, you have to spill the beans on what he's touching . . . 98? 99? 

Congrats, that is amazing stuff.

We saw 6's and 7's in july for Team USA. I love hearing him talk these days about pitching, he has grown up so much and is becoming a pitcher. 

"We saw 6's and 7's in july for Team USA. I love hearing him talk these days about pitching, he has grown up so much and is becoming a pitcher. "

We saw a few 6's and 7's this summer from both 2017 and 2024.  Not sure about that first number, but both had these in the second column.

Good luck in 2018 - it's right around the corner.  Let us know when he punches out three digits.

2019Dad posted:
bacdorslider posted:

are these cruising numbers?

Nope. Top velo on that particular day (just like a PG or PBR headline number). Like RealGreen's, my son's numbers are also in games, including scrimmages. Son's HS varsity has a Stalker Pro and charts every pitch in a game or scrimmage (though they do not use radar for JV or frosh).

FWIW, and I don't know if this is generally true but it has held for my son so far -- a new top velo, which is an outlier at the time, becomes more "normal" as he continues to develop. For example, this past February he pitched in a varsity scrimmage and threw one pitch at 86, but otherwise his high that day was 84. Now some time has passed, and 86 is normal -- on Saturday he threw 13 fastballs and I think 86 was the velo on 5 of them. So now 90 is an outlier for him (the next highest pitch on Saturday was 88). So it seems like there's a jump, and then sort of a catch-up period.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well, or if you have seen that with any of your sons' development.

Explaining it very well, '19Dad.  RHP son has added 2 mph each year the past couple years.  I see it in the summer time as that is when he focuses on pitching workouts most.  One year's "touch" velo becomes next year's sitting velo.  Hoping he's got at least a couple more of those years in him.

#1 Assistant Coach posted:
2019Dad posted:
bacdorslider posted:

are these cruising numbers?

Nope. Top velo on that particular day (just like a PG or PBR headline number). Like RealGreen's, my son's numbers are also in games, including scrimmages. Son's HS varsity has a Stalker Pro and charts every pitch in a game or scrimmage (though they do not use radar for JV or frosh).

FWIW, and I don't know if this is generally true but it has held for my son so far -- a new top velo, which is an outlier at the time, becomes more "normal" as he continues to develop. For example, this past February he pitched in a varsity scrimmage and threw one pitch at 86, but otherwise his high that day was 84. Now some time has passed, and 86 is normal -- on Saturday he threw 13 fastballs and I think 86 was the velo on 5 of them. So now 90 is an outlier for him (the next highest pitch on Saturday was 88). So it seems like there's a jump, and then sort of a catch-up period.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well, or if you have seen that with any of your sons' development.

Explaining it very well, '19Dad.  RHP son has added 2 mph each year the past couple years.  I see it in the summer time as that is when he focuses on pitching workouts most.  One year's "touch" velo becomes next year's sitting velo.  Hoping he's got at least a couple more of those years in him.

I would concur as to my '18's progression. He seems to sit where his previous seasons peak was. He's added 15lbs since July and T93 last summer! Here's to continuing the trend!

If a pitcher throws one legitimate pitch 90 some MPH, it means he is capable of throwing that velocity again. That is a good thing, but It doesn't mean he will average that velocity in the future, but it is possible.  Truth is you can pretty much bet you weren't lucky enough to see a pitcher on the very best day of his life, or worst day for that matter.  So you could assume that pitcher is capable of doing better.  And with any young pitcher you can assume he will get better as well as add some velocity in the future.  Gains in velocity can be very different from one pitcher to the next. We have seen very large gains in one year or even less.  We have also seen very small or even no gains in one year or more.  Also each pitcher is different when it comes to the timing of these increases in velocity.  For some it could be a steady climb over four or five years.  Some make major improvements at different ages.  Some don't develop their top velocity until college years.  Others have reached their limit by age 16 or 17. 

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter what happened with one pitcher, there is no average that means anything. Because it has no bearing on what might happen to a different pitcher. It is kind of like the average age of everyone, has no bearing on how old you are.

The thing to watch out for is that one pitch that is 3-5 mph or better than the second best reading.  This is usually a case where the radar has picked up the ball off the bat.  It happens quite a bit and can get parents excited and even angry when they see their son wasn't recorded at 96 mph or whatever velocity.  They seem to think that really happened because they saw the radar reading.  They don't consider that his highest pitch other than that one 96 was 85 mph.  I'm sure most people on here understand that, but you would be surprised by how many don't.

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

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roothog66 posted:

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

It's a good point. As a rule of thumb, if there isn't another pitch within 2 mph (maybe 3 at the very outside) of the high pitch, it's probably a batted ball. Unless, of course, that pitch wasn't swung at! ;-)

RichDunno posted:

This is why I created the King of the Hill Ground Force Trainer.......I had a 14 pitcher throwing 80mph which is pretty good. I also had a 18yr old 6'5" 180....dunk a basketball and throw 88 from outfield and couldn't get off 81mph off mound. When the 14 year old was pitching he would drive my portable pitching mound backwards 1" to 1 1/2" when he pitched. Which told me he was creating ground force into the front bracing leg which causes the hips to rotate. The 18 year old......no drive and never created a drag....just rotated off the rubber. 

The next 2 lessons our focus was driving the pitching mound back.......result after 2 weeks: 20 pitches he topped out at 87 mph with 3 pitches the rest at 83-86. Later in the summer He eventually topped out at 91mph and sat 86-87mph.

More and more studies are finding out that the harder throwers excel in Vertical and horizontal jumps which tell us they have elite power and explosion........now to put this into play on a pitching mound you have to get them to create a solid LOWER HALF to CREATE POWER and upon landing be able to brace up to TRANSFER that into rotational  energy to rotate the hips causing more separation!

Again.....this is why I created the King of the Hill! It will help coaches train kids to "USE THE LEGS!

Crushing the MLB teams and Major Colleges!

This is a really interesting idea and a great description of learning through intent. Simply by changing the intent (push the portable mound backwards) the body arranges itself to accomplish the task. It's a no-teach which is always a good thing. Gonna have my son try this after Thanksgiving break, thank you!

KilroyJ posted:
RichDunno posted:

This is why I created the King of the Hill Ground Force Trainer.......I had a 14 pitcher throwing 80mph which is pretty good. I also had a 18yr old 6'5" 180....dunk a basketball and throw 88 from outfield and couldn't get off 81mph off mound. When the 14 year old was pitching he would drive my portable pitching mound backwards 1" to 1 1/2" when he pitched. Which told me he was creating ground force into the front bracing leg which causes the hips to rotate. The 18 year old......no drive and never created a drag....just rotated off the rubber. 

The next 2 lessons our focus was driving the pitching mound back.......result after 2 weeks: 20 pitches he topped out at 87 mph with 3 pitches the rest at 83-86. Later in the summer He eventually topped out at 91mph and sat 86-87mph.

More and more studies are finding out that the harder throwers excel in Vertical and horizontal jumps which tell us they have elite power and explosion........now to put this into play on a pitching mound you have to get them to create a solid LOWER HALF to CREATE POWER and upon landing be able to brace up to TRANSFER that into rotational  energy to rotate the hips causing more separation!

Again.....this is why I created the King of the Hill! It will help coaches train kids to "USE THE LEGS!

Crushing the MLB teams and Major Colleges!

This is a really interesting idea and a great description of learning through intent. Simply by changing the intent (push the portable mound backwards) the body arranges itself to accomplish the task. It's a no-teach which is always a good thing. Gonna have my son try this after Thanksgiving break, thank you!

I would encourage you to  go to the King of the Hill website and read the description of what this training device is supposed to accomplish.  It is right on target.  I am a pitching coach and this is exactly what we teach.  I don't have experience with this specific training device - we use something simpler - but it is promoting the right concept.  A word of cautionary advice - there can be a tendency for kids to misunderstand how to create the position of the post leg to result in the desired drive off the pitching rubber toward the target. Many want to collapse the back knee of the post leg thinking they have to do that in order to drive forward - and it kills momentum if this is done.  The knee of the post leg has to cave in toward the target (without buckling), which promotes leading down the mound with the hip.  All of which is about having the legs be the foundation of the pitching delivery. Anything that helps teach this movement is worth the investment.  Especially considering that this movement is at the beginning of the kinetic chain - so if it isn't done correctly anything that comes afterwards is going to be affected negatively.

2019Dad posted:
roothog66 posted:

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

It's a good point. As a rule of thumb, if there isn't another pitch within 2 mph (maybe 3 at the very outside) of the high pitch, it's probably a batted ball. Unless, of course, that pitch wasn't swung at! ;-)

ive noticed in game logs now that they are showing the range,  avg and top speed now  so might be easier to discern.    I would think over time  as he goes to more events you could see how he threw at other events and figure out there is a fluke.        

what have you seen in terms of how kids throw at PG events  vs.  in bullpens at home,   varies?   adrenaline adds a couple mph?   nervous subtracts?      I would tend to think they would try and put a few high throws on the board and then settle in to pitching  throwing strikes, getting outs.    

gunner34 posted:
2019Dad posted:
roothog66 posted:

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

It's a good point. As a rule of thumb, if there isn't another pitch within 2 mph (maybe 3 at the very outside) of the high pitch, it's probably a batted ball. Unless, of course, that pitch wasn't swung at! ;-)

ive noticed in game logs now that they are showing the range,  avg and top speed now  so might be easier to discern.    I would think over time  as he goes to more events you could see how he threw at other events and figure out there is a fluke.        

what have you seen in terms of how kids throw at PG events  vs.  in bullpens at home,   varies?   adrenaline adds a couple mph?   nervous subtracts?      I would tend to think they would try and put a few high throws on the board and then settle in to pitching  throwing strikes, getting outs.    

This particular kid had never gone above 85 before this, including a few PG tourneys over the summer where he topped out at 84 and 82. I actually found five or six like this from Jupiter where guys showed 1) a top speed at least 3mph above any other pitch thrown and 2) the high number occurred on a pitch that was hit. 

I also saw one occasion during Jupiter where a kid that tops out at 89 had one ball at 95 on a hard single. DK took that pitch off several hours later. So, they do catch some of these. I also was personally at another game where a kid I know threw one pitch at 90 even though he had never thrown a pitch exceeding 87 in that performance or any other. That pitch was not hit and I was standing with a scout who also got 90, matching the DK reading, so I can see that occasionally a legit velo increase can occur out of nowhere. 

roothog66 posted:
gunner34 posted:
2019Dad posted:
roothog66 posted:

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

It's a good point. As a rule of thumb, if there isn't another pitch within 2 mph (maybe 3 at the very outside) of the high pitch, it's probably a batted ball. Unless, of course, that pitch wasn't swung at! ;-)

ive noticed in game logs now that they are showing the range,  avg and top speed now  so might be easier to discern.    I would think over time  as he goes to more events you could see how he threw at other events and figure out there is a fluke.        

what have you seen in terms of how kids throw at PG events  vs.  in bullpens at home,   varies?   adrenaline adds a couple mph?   nervous subtracts?      I would tend to think they would try and put a few high throws on the board and then settle in to pitching  throwing strikes, getting outs.    

This particular kid had never gone above 85 before this, including a few PG tourneys over the summer where he topped out at 84 and 82. I actually found five or six like this from Jupiter where guys showed 1) a top speed at least 3mph above any other pitch thrown and 2) the high number occurred on a pitch that was hit. 

I also saw one occasion during Jupiter where a kid that tops out at 89 had one ball at 95 on a hard single. DK took that pitch off several hours later. So, they do catch some of these. I also was personally at another game where a kid I know threw one pitch at 90 even though he had never thrown a pitch exceeding 87 in that performance or any other. That pitch was not hit and I was standing with a scout who also got 90, matching the DK reading, so I can see that occasionally a legit velo increase can occur out of nowhere. 

I would think a simple query of pitch by pitch velocities by PG would find outliers, and it would be a simple scrub of the data.

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