When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
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Teaching Elder posted:When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
Some JCs might TAKE a kid that threw 82 w/ good command - but they wouldn't recruit him.
So, you're saying, "Hit the mascot with your best stuff"?
Teaching Elder posted:So, you're saying, "Hit the mascot with your best stuff"?
That is clearly NOT what I said
Teaching Elder posted:When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
I don't understand the question. Don't most guys who can sit 80-82 with good command have a slightly higher powerful fastball that would be 83-85?
My sons coach told him at PG events to attempt at least one high velo pitch when it is a good time to have a wild pitch. That way they get that 84 on their record but can sit 80-82.
"When recruiting, Velocity or command"
Why is this a question?
The Q in the OP had to do with who would a JuCo coach rather recruit. The Q didn't ask if a kid could be effective in JuCo throwing 82 w/ command. The Q was would that kid be recruited - which implies "would he be offered a scholarship?" You can be just as effective throwing 82 w/ command as you can be throwing 92 w/ command. Its just a whole lot harder to do. The margin for error is very small and very few can do it. Therefore, a college team will almost never invest scholarship money in a guy like that as the odds are too long. 99 times out of 100 they will recruit velocity and try to teach command. There is not a lot of interest in guys that throw below bat speed. That's why I said in my first post that a kid like that might be offered a roster spot but no money. But I expect you already know that and are just throwing a hook in the water to see who will bite. Interesting that you chose JuCo for your hypothetical Q.
"Interesting that you chose JuCo for your hypothetical Q. "
Why is that?
Teaching Elder posted:"Interesting that you chose JuCo for your hypothetical Q. "
Why is that?
Why did you choose it ?
I asked you first.
I'm glued to my monitor. Maybe the rest of us could start guessing why and you can tell us if we are correct or not.
Interesting choice because......it's not the typical D1/Power 5 question that everyone else asks
Why Juco was chosen.....there happens to be one down the street close by
Teaching Elder posted:I asked you first.
I cant read your mind so you are putting me in the position of having to assume. So I assume you chose JuCo because you think that is where a kid throwing 82 w/ command is most likely to be recruited (or have a chance). If my assumption is correct, I would counter by saying it would have to be a very uncompetitive JuCo for that to be true. The more likely place for a kid at 82 w/ command to have a chance to succeed is D3 - not JuCo. IMO.
I was at a D3 game a few years ago and saw Hardin Simmons University run a lefty out there who was 5'-8" tall and weighed maybe a buck fifty. Fastball topped out at 78 and change up was 68 mph. Kid was fearless and did okay in relief that day. Pitching coach told me after the game that when he was perfect he was very effective, but when he wasn't he got hammered.
AD, that begins to shed a little light on the answer to the question. I’m still a little confused though. Why would coaches prefer a guy who slings 83-85 but doesn’t know where it’s going to a guy who maybe sits 81-82, knowing that likely they will take some velo off of that first guy to get the command and he will sit closer to the second guys velocity in actual games?
I realize that this hypothetical has to insert some assumptions that may or may not be true.
Simple question...simple answer. Velo is what gets you looks...even with JUCO coaches. I think the only exception might be the kid who is low 80's with a higher ceiling....like the kid who is 6'5, 175lbs, without a hint of facial hair.
I don't know why you are confused. As Sultan of Swat alluded in his post - velocity gets recruited & command doesn't. Its that simple. Radar guns don't measure command do they ? Problem is that they also don't measure whether or not you can pitch. No recorded measurables are an accurate indication of how well a player plays the game. It all about probability. It is more likely that the guy with the higher velo will be successful, so that's who gets recruited. It is a very imperfect science but that's the way it is.
It appears, then, from your comments and others, that at showcases , camps and tryouts, it is a better idea for players to throw hard than to throw well. Am, I understanding you correctly?
Teaching Elder posted:It appears, then, from your comments and others, that at showcases , camps and tryouts, it is a better idea for players to throw hard than to throw well. Am, I understanding you correctly?
Yes
At some point you have to learn to throw well too. But to get noticed and to get a chance (and that part comes first) you need to throw hard.
Throwing with velocity may get you that job interview. It may even get you the job but if you can't command your pitches. You may be looking for a new job.
CaCO3Girl posted:Teaching Elder posted:When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
I don't understand the question. Don't most guys who can sit 80-82 with good command have a slightly higher powerful fastball that would be 83-85?
My sons coach told him at PG events to attempt at least one high velo pitch when it is a good time to have a wild pitch. That way they get that 84 on their record but can sit 80-82.
I would agree with that. Air it out for 3-4 pitches so you get the number on record and then throw a velo you can control.
At large showcases coaches are looking at lots of kids in a very short period of time. In August I was at a showcase where over 100 pitchers threw in front of almost 100 coaches. 2 pitchers were throwing at the same time and it was hard enough to keep straight who was who since the order didn't match the information sheet. In a small window like that velocity is about the only thing that will get somebody's attention. Maybe an outstanding breaking ball if your vantage point is good enough to see it well. Most HS pitchers have flaws in their delivery that take away from their velo and their command. College coaches can see the right guy at 85 and think they can improve his mechanics and get him up to 88 with improved command.
Sidebar: Even as a position player you want to sling a few to show your velo (capability) across the field, then play your position aggressively as you would in a game.
Wasn't the question about pitchers? Why would you bring up position players?
Appreciate your feedback AD. I see that your profile says that you do some volunteer Asst. coaching. Would like to pick your brain a bit more if okay.
Hypothetical scenario:
Coach brings in a guy who is not great with command, but can hit the strike zone 3 out of 5 pitches. He's seen the guy throw 84-85. What does the coach do with this guy once he has him on campus? (Pitcher has a scholarship and is guaranteed a year. Not a bunch 'em and chunk 'em coach.) Does he look to reduce the guy down to a cruising speed that allows better command? Does he try to teach the guy to command 84-85? Something else?
is 83-85 really velocity?
Teaching Elder posted:Appreciate your feedback AD. I see that your profile says that you do some volunteer Asst. coaching. Would like to pick your brain a bit more if okay.
Hypothetical scenario:
Coach brings in a guy who is not great with command, but can hit the strike zone 3 out of 5 pitches. He's seen the guy throw 84-85. What does the coach do with this guy once he has him on campus? (Pitcher has a scholarship and is guaranteed a year. Not a bunch 'em and chunk 'em coach.) Does he look to reduce the guy down to a cruising speed that allows better command? Does he try to teach the guy to command 84-85? Something else?
I get the impression that you have a specific situation that you are dancing around so lets go to PM and get to the bottom of it.
Chicago643 posted:Wasn't the question about pitchers? Why would you bring up position players?
I stated sidebar. My comment is secondary to the OP, but related in the sense that players have to let it fly to show what they're capable of. This stuff always comes up when kids are going to showcases and camps.
Back to the OP
Teaching Elder posted:Appreciate your feedback AD. I see that your profile says that you do some volunteer Asst. coaching. Would like to pick your brain a bit more if okay.
Hypothetical scenario:
Coach brings in a guy who is not great with command, but can hit the strike zone 3 out of 5 pitches. He's seen the guy throw 84-85. What does the coach do with this guy once he has him on campus? (Pitcher has a scholarship and is guaranteed a year. Not a bunch 'em and chunk 'em coach.) Does he look to reduce the guy down to a cruising speed that allows better command? Does he try to teach the guy to command 84-85? Something else?
I would say that it depends. Velo is King, but my son's HS PC was a former PC at an NAIA school. He did exactly what you describe here. He wanted control over top velocity. Therefore, there are probably some JC coaches that would do the same. Keep in mind that there are 3 levels of JC ball, so the abilities/talent levels vary immensely.
as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
D1catcher posted:as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
100% correct
Let's ease up on the D1 power five arrogance here guys. Not every player is that caliber and that's okay. 83-85 is good velocity for some levels of play. Less than that is good for some levels of play. Young men often times want to continue to compete, even though it's not D1 and even if they don't plan to play after college. Let's be careful about looking down our noses.
By-the-way, Barry Zitto's average fastball velocity was 83.7 MPH. The guy has a Cy Young award.
D1catcher posted:as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
First I want to say I don't have a dog in this race. As time has moved on it becomes more clear that my son will play football in college. But on behalf of those kids who are at 83-85 first let me congratulate you. You ARE throwing hard. Not everybody is gifted with a 90+ arm. Secondly lets all pull back a little and remember there is a lot more baseball than just D1. And I am sure D1catcher's comments are meant to indicate what feelings would be at the D1 level. There are many D2, D3 and NAIA schools that would be happy to take a good pitcher throwing 83-85.
Teaching Elder posted:Let's ease up on the D1 power five arrogance here guys. Not every player is that caliber and that's okay. 83-85 is good velocity for some levels of play. Less than that is good for some levels of play. Young men often times want to continue to compete, even though it's not D1 and even if they don't plan to play after college. Let's be careful about looking down our noses.
By-the-way, Barry Zitto's average fastball velocity was 83.7 MPH. The guy has a Cy Young award.
D1 catchers comments apply to a lot more than D1 programs. His comments apply to college programs at every level. 83 mph is more or less avg HS velo for a varsity pitcher. A HS lefty at 83 will get recruited. A HS RHP at 83 is a dime a dozen as far as velo goes. You can find at least 2 of those at almost every 5A and 6A HS in Texas. At the really good HS programs there might be 5 or 6.
And a lot of them are 85 - 90 mph
ok so what??? We have a tiny school of just over 600 kids and we have three documented over 87mph and another one or two pushing mid 80's. And guess what? All three of those 87+ kids will go D1. So whats your point? The 83-85 kids will have a place for them AT A LEVEL LOWER THAN D1 if they choose to pursue it. Kids throwing 83 may be a dime a dozen the way you define that term. But after the smoke clears and the big mph kids go D1 and many others in that 83-85 range just decide to move on with their lives and not play college baseball all the sudden there is demand at the small college level for those guys. All you have to do is take your pocket radar to a local D3 game. Find out for yourself. Even the best of the best D3's have guys cruising just over 80. And I have verified it with my own eyes at Wisconsin Whitewater games. I just don't know how this myth keeps getting perpetuated that you cant pitch in college if you are not pushing 90. Truth is I have gunned kids cruising in the 70's on bad D3 teams. And yes believe it or not there might just be a kid who barely scrapes up against 80 who just loves playing and is ok playing for that bad D3 team. Maybe its just plain fun. Lets be careful not to be so elitist that we look down our noses at that kid.
2020dad posted:D1catcher posted:as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
First I want to say I don't have a dog in this race. As time has moved on it becomes more clear that my son will play football in college. But on behalf of those kids who are at 83-85 first let me congratulate you. You ARE throwing hard. Not everybody is gifted with a 90+ arm. Secondly lets all pull back a little and remember there is a lot more baseball than just D1. And I am sure D1catcher's comments are meant to indicate what feelings would be at the D1 level. There are many D2, D3 and NAIA schools that would be happy to take a good pitcher throwing 83-85.
Your last statement is correct. There are some D2 and NAIA schools "that would be happy to take" a pitcher throwing 83-85 IF he had good command AND good secondary stuff. But they are not likely to offer them any baseball scholarship money. The OP was about getting recruited - implying scholarship.
2020dad posted:ok so what??? We have a tiny school of just over 600 kids and we have three documented over 87mph and another one or two pushing mid 80's. And guess what? All three of those 87+ kids will go D1. So whats your point? The 83-85 kids will have a place for them AT A LEVEL LOWER THAN D1 if they choose to pursue it. Kids throwing 83 may be a dime a dozen the way you define that term. But after the smoke clears and the big mph kids go D1 and many others in that 83-85 range just decide to move on with their lives and not play college baseball all the sudden there is demand at the small college level for those guys. All you have to do is take your pocket radar to a local D3 game. Find out for yourself. Even the best of the best D3's have guys cruising just over 80. And I have verified it with my own eyes at Wisconsin Whitewater games. I just don't know how this myth keeps getting perpetuated that you cant pitch in college if you are not pushing 90. Truth is I have gunned kids cruising in the 70's on bad D3 teams. And yes believe it or not there might just be a kid who barely scrapes up against 80 who just loves playing and is ok playing for that bad D3 team. Maybe its just plain fun. Lets be careful not to be so elitist that we look down our noses at that kid.
Nobody is being elitist and nobody has said that you have to throw 90 to pitch in college. Earlier in this thread I said that you can be just as effective throwing 82 with command as you can be throwing 92 with command. Its just much harder to do and not many can do it. So read the whole thread before you start lobbing grenades.
Gov posted:Chicago643 posted:Wasn't the question about pitchers? Why would you bring up position players?
I stated sidebar. My comment is secondary to the OP, but related in the sense that players have to let it fly to show what they're capable of. This stuff always comes up when kids are going to showcases and camps.
Back to the OP
Which is often why a "showcase player" isn't necessarily a gamer. Coaches can sometimes be fooled, too. I remember my son went to a college camp and the coach made it a point to tell the players and parents that they were releasing a couple of current players that showed well in showcases and were recruited on that basis, but it didn't translate to being a daily D1 player. Are you really "capable" of whatever it is you show once with maximum effort? Technically, yes, but I don't think that paints the complete story of a player. I know a player who is 92 across the diamond (absolute hose of an arm) who, because he knows he can "sling it," often takes an extra step or time to throw the ball, which has forced max effort throws that cannot be handled by the first baseman when they are off-line or in the dirt. In this case, all that velocity became a crutch and now that players are faster he has to figure out he needs to make other adjustments in order to be a reliable defender.
And nobody ever said there is anything wrong with playing on a bad D3 team just for fun either.
Teaching Elder posted:Let's ease up on the D1 power five arrogance here guys. Not every player is that caliber and that's okay. 83-85 is good velocity for some levels of play. Less than that is good for some levels of play. Young men often times want to continue to compete, even though it's not D1 and even if they don't plan to play after college. Let's be careful about looking down our noses.
By-the-way, Barry Zitto's average fastball velocity was 83.7 MPH. The guy has a Cy Young award.
I would say its average HS velocity where we are, and not going to get you recruited.
Barry Zito is an outlier, comparing the norm at one level (HS) to the results of an outlier at a higher level (MLB) is not a very strong endorsement logically speaking.
Barry Zito had a 93 mph fastball early in his career when he was winning. He didn't get to the bigs with an 84 mph fastball. And when he lost all that velo he wasn't getting hitters out very well most of the time.
Following velocity in a strong HS league I have yet to see 90 mph game speed in a HS game. Pitchers that have gone to top D1 schools with showcase verified velocities over 90 mph were usually sitting 86-87 in games. Those are the rare birds that dominate most HS line ups. The next tier pitchers (most HS aces) in HS sit 84-85 and can touch 86-87. The second and third starters are sitting in the 82-83 range.
I have not gunned every pitcher but I have seen enough verified velocities during the games over the years to feel confident that these are averages for large classification HS velocities.
HS average velocity would be well below 83-85 or even just 83. Again most people on here are familiar with higher levels. There are entire varsity pitching staffs all over the country who don't have a kid over 83.
real green posted:Following velocity in a strong HS league I have yet to see 90 mph game speed in a HS game. Pitchers that have gone to top D1 schools with showcase verified velocities over 90 mph were usually sitting 86-87 in games. Those are the rare birds that dominate most HS line ups. The next tier pitchers (most HS aces) in HS sit 84-85 and can touch 86-87. The second and third starters are sitting in the 82-83 range.
I have not gunned every pitcher but I have seen enough verified velocities during the games over the years to feel confident that these are averages for large classification HS velocities.
Faced these guys last night in a scrimmage. One of the better staffs in the area. #4 rated by some guy with a website. Fun to watch. They had another kid. About 5'7" 140 lbs, LH, threw maybe 80. Spin galore. Got lots of outs.
Agree with Real Green on average HS velocities.
2018 is going to a D3 academic. Past summer his FB was 86, sat 81-83 with strike out secondary pitches. He knew his velo wasn't impressing and he had a better chance being at SS.
He's now throwing 86-87 flat ground with FB touching 89, coach thinks 90-92 in spring HS ball.
Sidebar: He's a gamer, primarily plays SS w 90 across IF and has competed against the best in PG and other tournaments.
His command of secondary pitches helped develop confidence on the mound. He knew because his velo wasn't high it would be difficult to get recruiting looks as a PO. Now he's stronger and the velo is coming around. Bit of a late bloomer, I'm sure there would have been other recruiting possibilities, but he's a happy guy with having the chance to contribute right away, still have upside, and at least graduate with one hell of an education.
real green posted:Following velocity in a strong HS league I have yet to see 90 mph game speed in a HS game. Pitchers that have gone to top D1 schools with showcase verified velocities over 90 mph were usually sitting 86-87 in games. Those are the rare birds that dominate most HS line ups. The next tier pitchers (most HS aces) in HS sit 84-85 and can touch 86-87. The second and third starters are sitting in the 82-83 range.
I have not gunned every pitcher but I have seen enough verified velocities during the games over the years to feel confident that these are averages for large classification HS velocities.
We actually had a SP who sat 89-91, with FB at 96 in HS season previous year. 2018 was his closer...lol...he'd come in (at the time) sitting 80-83, w a FB at 85, but kill them with his secondary stuff. Fun to watch with all the MLB guys around. SP was a reliever as a freshman during the CWS.
Rarity.
2020dad posted:HS average velocity would be well below 83-85 or even just 83. Again most people on here are familiar with higher levels. There are entire varsity pitching staffs all over the country who don't have a kid over 83.
You are correct, but in my area you aren't going to even sniff varsity team without sitting 84-85 with very good secondary pitch
Chicago643 posted:2020dad posted:HS average velocity would be well below 83-85 or even just 83. Again most people on here are familiar with higher levels. There are entire varsity pitching staffs all over the country who don't have a kid over 83.
You are correct, but in my area you aren't going to even sniff varsity team without sitting 84-85 with very good secondary pitch
Same here. My 2015 was recruited to pitch at UTD - which is a good D3 program. His senior year he was 83-84 w/ a wipeout CB and he was the #3 starter at his HS. He would not have been recruited without the CB.
To touch or sit...that is the question.
Chicago643 posted:2020dad posted:HS average velocity would be well below 83-85 or even just 83. Again most people on here are familiar with higher levels. There are entire varsity pitching staffs all over the country who don't have a kid over 83.
You are correct, but in my area you aren't going to even sniff varsity team without sitting 84-85 with very good secondary pitch
And that's exactly my point. You are probably not aware I am born and raised in Joliet IL. Coached at Providence in new Lenox and Joliet catholic - also my alma mater. And yes Chicago is a much bigger baseball hotbed than people realize. In fact I saw a study once that showed the Naperville/Joliet area is third in the country for producing draft choices. You will never see those guys with nobody throwing upper 80's at least. But what About the smaller outlying schools? And then what about the rest of the country? You are spoiled there watching some great talent!
2020dad posted:HS average velocity would be well below 83-85 or even just 83. Again most people on here are familiar with higher levels. There are entire varsity pitching staffs all over the country who don't have a kid over 83.
I agree with you 2020dad as far as average HS velo would be well below 83.
My point was in regards to large HS, very competitive divisions. Schools with top D1 prospects that have verified 90+ speeds posted online. What I have found is their game speed is much less than top speed. The guy that threw 91 at a showcase is probably sitting at 86-87 in a game.
I watched a sophomore in the playoffs who has committed to a top 10 D1 school sitting 82 in the game. This prospect has documented 87 in showcases, but his game speed was 82 that day. By the way, there were multiple scouts gunning this kid, so it was easy to verify.
We try and compare our kids to schools that might fit right? I am as guilty as the next guy, when we see a kid doing well at a mid D1 school throwing 88 in a game. We think wow, my kid is not that far off. He touched 85 yesterday in his bullpen. This is attainable. The reality is that D1 kid can run it up to 92-93 in a max effort throw. He has dialed it down to 88 for maximum control and velocity. When he is feeling it he might let one go during a game and hit 90.
Again numbers get thrown around like they are in the same bucket. Max velocity and game velocity are two completely different numbers. A starter geared to throw a chunk of innings at 90 mph can probably throw a few max effort throws around 95.
"What I have found is their game speed is much less than top speed. The guy that threw 91 at a showcase is probably sitting at 86-87 in a game. "
Were you expecting something different? This is the way it works.
Gov posted:Chicago643 posted:Wasn't the question about pitchers? Why would you bring up position players?
I stated sidebar. My comment is secondary to the OP, but related in the sense that players have to let it fly to show what they're capable of. This stuff always comes up when kids are going to showcases and camps.
Back to the OP
Gov: I was thinking position player similar scenarios too. Big guy in skills set hits two bombs in BP/skills set. Then in games against live pitching 0-4 with 4 Ks. "Like the power..can teach this kid plate discipline."
Teaching Elder posted:When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
There are 5 jucos and 4 NAIA schools within and hour or so drive of my house. So I've followed them pretty close for years. To answer the question yes some of them recruit low 80's pitchers that have great control. They also seem to get 1 or 2 guys around 90 that can't hit a barn. I guess hoping they will learn control but they need the other kids to compete until they do. Now keep in mind JC is pretty much free here so it's different but this was the case when scholarships were still a thing.
Big Taco posted:is 83-85 really velocity?
Probably harder than 99% percent of the people on the planet can throw.
D1catcher posted:as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
I'd say there are almost as many "college" pitchers throwing at or under 85 than over it.
adbono posted:Teaching Elder posted:Let's ease up on the D1 power five arrogance here guys. Not every player is that caliber and that's okay. 83-85 is good velocity for some levels of play. Less than that is good for some levels of play. Young men often times want to continue to compete, even though it's not D1 and even if they don't plan to play after college. Let's be careful about looking down our noses.
By-the-way, Barry Zitto's average fastball velocity was 83.7 MPH. The guy has a Cy Young award.
D1 catchers comments apply to a lot more than D1 programs. His comments apply to college programs at every level. 83 mph is more or less avg HS velo for a varsity pitcher. A HS lefty at 83 will get recruited. A HS RHP at 83 is a dime a dozen as far as velo goes. You can find at least 2 of those at almost every 5A and 6A HS in Texas. At the really good HS programs there might be 5 or 6.
Yes because 5A and 6A Texas HS are average at anything sports related.
I know half a dozen kids on baseball scholarships that were recruited to those schools that are below 85.
I've been looking up schools near me to get a feel for the velocities at the schools so we can see the possible fit for my 2019. I know the OP was juco but I haven't looked them up yet. Here is the first 4 I did. The NAIA school has had multiple national championships.
This was the highest posted velocity these pitchers threw during the summer between junior and senior year at PG or PBR. I couldn't find the velocities for the other pitchers. These are all RHP. I left out any I know or could find out are submariners.
D2
83, 84, 85, 87, 85
I know the 83 and he's on 25% scholly
D2
85, 85, 85, 83, 86, 82, 82, 86, 87
NAIA
80, 83, 70, 78, 84, 80, 83, 78, 82
I know the 82 and he is on scholly not sure how much. I know one of the 83's and he's on 70%
D1
86, 86, 82, 89, 87, 87, 88, 87, 90, 85
I know it's a very small sample but looks pretty clear 85 can play after HS if not looking at D1 and it still doesn't need 90.
SultanofSwat posted:"What I have found is their game speed is much less than top speed. The guy that threw 91 at a showcase is probably sitting at 86-87 in a game. "
Were you expecting something different? This is the way it works.
No, I wasn't expecting anything different. Just the reality that when some one says John Doe is throwing 91, one needs to clarify if that he touched 91 once at a showcase or is he sitting 91 in games.
I have heard it multiple times from the peanut gallery during a game. "Wow, that pitcher accepted a D1 offer and is only throwing 85 (in a game). How did he get noticed. My kid throws 84 (max effort) and hasn't been noticed" Heck I have thought that once or twice. The truth is the kid sitting 85 can more than likely pump it up to 88-89.
Or how many times have you heard this, "Did you see Max last night in the game, they had a stalker on him and he was only throwing 85. Crazy! Someone told me he was pushing 90. People exaggerate velocity all the time."
real green posted:SultanofSwat posted:"What I have found is their game speed is much less than top speed. The guy that threw 91 at a showcase is probably sitting at 86-87 in a game. "
Were you expecting something different? This is the way it works.
No, I wasn't expecting anything different. Just the reality that when some one says John Doe is throwing 91, one needs to clarify if that he touched 91 once at a showcase or is he sitting 91 in games.
I have heard it multiple times from the peanut gallery during a game. "Wow, that pitcher accepted a D1 offer and is only throwing 85 (in a game). How did he get noticed. My kid throws 84 (max effort) and hasn't been noticed" Heck I have thought that once or twice. The truth is the kid sitting 85 can more than likely pump it up to 88-89.
Or how many times have you heard this, "Did you see Max last night in the game, they had a stalker on him and he was only throwing 85. Crazy! Someone told me he was pushing 90. People exaggerate velocity all the time."
This was a little bit of my original point. Aren't coaches smart enough to know that I guy with good command 81-82 is not throwing max effort? They are seeing cruising speed?
Scotty83 posted:I've been looking up schools near me to get a feel for the velocities at the schools so we can see the possible fit for my 2019. I know the OP was juco but I haven't looked them up yet. Here is the first 4 I did. The NAIA school has had multiple national championships.
This was the highest posted velocity these pitchers threw during the summer between junior and senior year at PG or PBR. I couldn't find the velocities for the other pitchers. These are all RHP. I left out any I know or could find out are submariners.
D2
83, 84, 85, 87, 85
I know the 83 and he's on 25% schollyD2
85, 85, 85, 83, 86, 82, 82, 86, 87NAIA
80, 83, 70, 78, 84, 80, 83, 78, 82
I know the 82 and he is on scholly not sure how much. I know one of the 83's and he's on 70%D1
86, 86, 82, 89, 87, 87, 88, 87, 90, 85I know it's a very small sample but looks pretty clear 85 can play after HS if not looking at D1 and it still doesn't need 90.
Thanks for the research scotty. My thing when stuff like this comes up is I just hate to see kids get demoralized and think its over when its not. Not everyone is top dog material but if these kids throwing low 80's keep plugging there is somewhere for them. And yes they may have to make some concessions as far as location or coursework etc. But if they want to play they can.
Don't forget late bloomers. Some guys are 6'0" 160 lbs as seniors in high school. They may be 6'1" 185 as sophomores in college and become quite hard throwing pitchers.
real green posted:2020dad posted:HS average velocity would be well below 83-85 or even just 83. Again most people on here are familiar with higher levels. There are entire varsity pitching staffs all over the country who don't have a kid over 83.
I agree with you 2020dad as far as average HS velo would be well below 83.
My point was in regards to large HS, very competitive divisions. Schools with top D1 prospects that have verified 90+ speeds posted online. What I have found is their game speed is much less than top speed. The guy that threw 91 at a showcase is probably sitting at 86-87 in a game.
I watched a sophomore in the playoffs who has committed to a top 10 D1 school sitting 82 in the game. This prospect has documented 87 in showcases, but his game speed was 82 that day. By the way, there were multiple scouts gunning this kid, so it was easy to verify.
We try and compare our kids to schools that might fit right? I am as guilty as the next guy, when we see a kid doing well at a mid D1 school throwing 88 in a game. We think wow, my kid is not that far off. He touched 85 yesterday in his bullpen. This is attainable. The reality is that D1 kid can run it up to 92-93 in a max effort throw. He has dialed it down to 88 for maximum control and velocity. When he is feeling it he might let one go during a game and hit 90.
Again numbers get thrown around like they are in the same bucket. Max velocity and game velocity are two completely different numbers. A starter geared to throw a chunk of innings at 90 mph can probably throw a few max effort throws around 95.
John Smoltz is a good example of this. When he was a starter, he threw hard, but not nearly as hard as when he came back as a closer.
I help out the coaching staff at a JC in west Texas. Two things I help with are pitching & recruiting. We play in one of the toughest JC conferences in the country. The program has been down but it is on the way back up. You guys are welcome to your own opinions about all of this, but I am going to offer up some facts. You will have to determine for yourself what adjustments you want to make for any regional differences - but here are some of the criteria that we use to determine if we want to recruit a pitcher : 1. We consider 83 mph to be avg HS fastball velocity 2. Minimum in game FB velo that we will recruit (meaning consider for a scholarship) is 83 mph. 3. 83 mph FB would only be considered IF it was accompanied by superior command AND plus secondary stuff. There are a few guys on our staff that currently don't meet this criteria - but we inherited them and we wont be adding any more like them. We are trying to get better. We would consider offering a walk on roster spot to a kid that was a little short of what we want if we thought we could develop him. But the criteria above would describe a kid in the bottom half of the pitching staff. Our best 3 look like this : 1. 88 - 90 mph FB in game w/ command, great breaking ball, okay change up. 2. 84 - 86 mph FB in game w/ command, great breaking ball, okay change up 3. 84 - 86 mph FB in game w/ command, great breaking ball, good change up. The OP was about what it would take for a pitcher to be recruited (offered a scholarship) to a JC. For this particular JC program, I have described what it takes.
As a dad of a 84-86 LHP (80-82 when trying to find a spot as HS Junior/Senior) — I can tell you the fixation on velo is soooo frustrating. It might be reality, but that doesn’t take away from frustration my son went through at these showcases when he was in the recruiting swirl.
At the showcases — the gun would go up and the gun would go down. No one watched or cared about the fact that batters couldn’t square up and just about everyone would roll over. Meanwhile the guy that gunned it in at 88-90 kept the attention of the RCs in attendance, even if he got rocked or gave up 5 BBs.
At the HS my son played for — a perineal sectional champ and one of the top 25 programs in CA regardless of size — they didn’t care about velo. You had better spot up or you sat. So if my LHP worked on velo to try and get a RC attention, but lost even a bit of control — he’d be benched. The reason: The HS hitters in our league could time a flat 90+ fastball any day of the week. Sure, first time up, they might be blown away. Not the second time.
While we are new to the college ranks — I am about 100% positive that anyone at any level can time a 90+ fastball that is flat and predictable. Pitchers that figure out how to take 2mph off at times or add 2mph at times — I’m not talking a pure change up — succeed. Pitching is more art than pure power unless you are able to hit 99+ regularly. Just my opinion.
I agree with all of that.
Most coaches (and baseball people in general) are way too hung up on measurables - but unfortunately that's just the way it is. There are so many players to sift thru, and measurables are an easy way to narrow the field. So that's what most coaches do - but this approach eliminates a lot of good players. You can find coaches that look harder at a how a guy plays the game instead of what numbers say, but they tend to be older guys and there are fewer of them around every year that goes by.
Totally agree. I don’t envy the RCs out there — hard job.
My son’s grandfather had a pretty noteworthy MLB career back in the 60s and when the two of them would talk — he’d say "doesn’t matter how hard you throw, did you get them out?” This was at odds with what the RCs were telling my son.
End of the day — you control what you can control and if you are willing to keep grinding, and never give up — who knows what might happen. Now, he is putting in the work and grinding and filled with gratitude that he’s lucky to be able to continue to put on his cleats.
It is like everything else with baseball and measurables, if you are on the right side of the metric you have to prove you can't play if you are on the wrong side you have to prove you can play. It is understandable since quick yes/no decisions have to be made about a skillset and a number target weeds out people quickly. Measurables are a way to justify your decision to your boss the decision to allocate valuable scholarship money if a kid doesn't pan out the way you thought. You can pitch in the 80s and pitch in college at every level. More velo equals the ability to pitch over more mistakes.
MAM posted:Totally agree. I don’t envy the RCs out there — hard job.
My son’s grandfather had a pretty noteworthy MLB career back in the 60s and when the two of them would talk — he’d say "doesn’t matter how hard you throw, did you get them out?” This was at odds with what the RCs were telling my son.
End of the day — you control what you can control and if you are willing to keep grinding, and never give up — who knows what might happen. Now, he is putting in the work and grinding and filled with gratitude that he’s lucky to be able to continue to put on his cleats.
It is also about projectability for the JUCO coach. I saw my son's Juco coaches about a dozen times over the summer scouting kids. When they saw a little kid (5'7 130lb wet) throwing 84-85 They didn't bat an eye, but when the 6 foot string bean went out there at 84-85, he looked over to me and said "with our weight program we can get this guy close to 90". Unfortunately, not all 84's are the same and it isn't a black and white number, until you get to 90+.
From a mid-major RC [this isn't any different than what folks have been posting above, but in this case it's straight from the horse's mouth]:
"VELOCITY MATTERS . . . We realize that velocity isn’t the end-all be-all of recruiting pitchers, but to say that it’s not a big part of recruiting arms would be an outright lie. The harder a pitcher throws, the less time a hitter has to react - simple as that. . . . Full disclosure: Velocity - at any level of baseball - is the “barrier to entry.” In other words, coaches need to have confidence in a pitcher’s ability to throw hard enough to compete at their level. Depending on the program, some may want to see the velocity on the recruiting trail, others may want to see the (likely) potential to gain velocity in the near future (size, arm action, and age are factors in that assessment among others), and some may have a combination of both that is unique to each recruit. Regardless, velocity is a major factor in getting your foot in the door. Once you enter that door however, your command - at least in our program - is what determines how successful you are and what role(s) are bestowed upon you."
MAM posted:As a dad of a 84-86 LHP (80-82 when trying to find a spot as HS Junior/Senior) — I can tell you the fixation on velo is soooo frustrating. It might be reality, but that doesn’t take away from frustration my son went through at these showcases when he was in the recruiting swirl.
At the showcases — the gun would go up and the gun would go down. No one watched or cared about the fact that batters couldn’t square up and just about everyone would roll over. Meanwhile the guy that gunned it in at 88-90 kept the attention of the RCs in attendance, even if he got rocked or gave up 5 BBs.
At the HS my son played for — a perineal sectional champ and one of the top 25 programs in CA regardless of size — they didn’t care about velo. You had better spot up or you sat. So if my LHP worked on velo to try and get a RC attention, but lost even a bit of control — he’d be benched. The reason: The HS hitters in our league could time a flat 90+ fastball any day of the week. Sure, first time up, they might be blown away. Not the second time.
While we are new to the college ranks — I am about 100% positive that anyone at any level can time a 90+ fastball that is flat and predictable. Pitchers that figure out how to take 2mph off at times or add 2mph at times — I’m not talking a pure change up — succeed. Pitching is more art than pure power unless you are able to hit 99+ regularly. Just my opinion.
Pretty new to the whole recruiting thing but I was thinking this as I read through the replies. At showcases, I see coaches hold up the gun for a few pitches and then they either watch or they put it down and look at their clipboards for a few minutes and never look back at that pitcher. The decision is made within the first 2-3 pitches. My 2020 son recently had an experience at a camp invite where he was throwing 87-88 but it was not his day...not a lot of control. We were there to be seen by the coach who had seen him once before when he was lights out and I assumed they would not have as much interest after his outing (or at the very least would ask to see him later in the season). They came up after and ask us to stay and told him that they wanted him and were ready to make him an offer. Either they already knew going in or it was just about velocity. He can pitch...but they didn't see it that day.
baseballhs posted:MAM posted:As a dad of a 84-86 LHP (80-82 when trying to find a spot as HS Junior/Senior) — I can tell you the fixation on velo is soooo frustrating. It might be reality, but that doesn’t take away from frustration my son went through at these showcases when he was in the recruiting swirl.
At the showcases — the gun would go up and the gun would go down. No one watched or cared about the fact that batters couldn’t square up and just about everyone would roll over. Meanwhile the guy that gunned it in at 88-90 kept the attention of the RCs in attendance, even if he got rocked or gave up 5 BBs.
At the HS my son played for — a perineal sectional champ and one of the top 25 programs in CA regardless of size — they didn’t care about velo. You had better spot up or you sat. So if my LHP worked on velo to try and get a RC attention, but lost even a bit of control — he’d be benched. The reason: The HS hitters in our league could time a flat 90+ fastball any day of the week. Sure, first time up, they might be blown away. Not the second time.
While we are new to the college ranks — I am about 100% positive that anyone at any level can time a 90+ fastball that is flat and predictable. Pitchers that figure out how to take 2mph off at times or add 2mph at times — I’m not talking a pure change up — succeed. Pitching is more art than pure power unless you are able to hit 99+ regularly. Just my opinion.
Pretty new to the whole recruiting thing but I was thinking this as I read through the replies. At showcases, I see coaches hold up the gun for a few pitches and then they either watch or they put it down and look at their clipboards for a few minutes and never look back at that pitcher. The decision is made within the first 2-3 pitches. My 2020 son recently had an experience at a camp invite where he was throwing 87-88 but it was not his day...not a lot of control. We were there to be seen by the coach who had seen him once before when he was lights out and I assumed they would not have as much interest after his outing (or at the very least would ask to see him later in the season). They came up after and ask us to stay and told him that they wanted him and were ready to make him an offer. Either they already knew going in or it was just about velocity. He can pitch...but they didn't see it that day.
They see the mechanics and recognize it pretty quickly. Most likely validating what they saw in the past.
Interesting video by pitching ninja.
All 100+ mph fastballs of last year "down the pipe".
Really some of them were hit hard but lots of swings and misses and weak choppers.
Not that command doesn't matter but the old saying if it is hard down the pipe it will go faster than it came in is probably not quite true.
Velocity will get you to college ball. Command will keep you there.
Movement says "What about me?"
You can have both, neither or some of both and/or develop both. Neither are absolute. You can have command of one pitch and not another, same with velocity (but velocity generally correlates).
I'll weigh in as a former college hitter and father of a former college pitcher. Obviously the top tier / elite guys are going to have good stuff and good command. And to me velo is not what it used to be. Way more guys are well into the 90s and way more hitters have seen way more guys throwing that hard. But, as a hitter I remember thinking "wow this guy is throwing hard", or "his breaking ball is ridiculous". I never remember thinking "uh oh, this guy really mixes his pitches well and locates". I group in with velo other "swing and miss pitches". So I would rather have faced someone with great command than someone with "swing and miss stuff". And swing and miss stuff can be velo, a breaking ball, or even a change up. Guys can have an overpowering change up for sure.
My son had big success in high school and some success in college, and really would never have been described as having great command. His limited success in college was not due to a lack of command, but had more to do with injury, timing and circumstances. What he had was swing and miss stuff. Pitches that a very low percentage of hitters, a low percentage of the time were going to hurt him on.
So like it's been said, it's a question of degree. You have to have both but I lean toward velo
I agree it is a fallacy that good hitters will catch up to any velo. It is different now than it used to be for sure, but 100mph is hard hit! I remember once asking a MLB hitter what the difference was between 92-95, and 97-99. He said "you can hit 92-95"
97-99 is why teams resort to banging on trash cans
high change ups "I agree it is a fallacy that good hitters will catch up to any velo. It is different now than it used to be for sure, but 100mph is hard hit! I remember once asking a MLB hitter what the difference was between 92-95, and 97-99. He said "you can hit 92-95"
We learned the hard way last Summer in IOWA HS tourney. Our top guy throws 90-92 with a great cb and fine cu.
But we got a pitcher in the first round that hit 98 (highest ever in Iowa hs) and sat 95 at 100 pitches.
We only lost 4-5. He struck out 16 and we scored on 3 wild pitches.
Most of the season you could count on him walking 6-7. Not today.
@Go44dad posted:Movement says "What about me?"
You can have both, neither or some of both and/or develop both. Neither are absolute. You can have command of one pitch and not another, same with velocity (but velocity generally correlates).
I think movement is definitely important too but the studies I have seen the ranking for fastballs is velo, then command and last movement
I’m not sure what perspective people speak from and I think that is a very important distinction. Speaking from personal experience is what means the most to me, I was a very hard thrower (95) back when there weren’t many. I thought I could throw the ball past most any hitter just because of velo. When I got to college I found out that I was very wrong and I gave up some titanic home runs before I figured out that college hitters could hit any velo - especially if it was straight. It was only after I developed a good change up and learned to sink my FB that I had consistent success. I also learned that changing speeds was the most effective way to get hitters out. Hitting is about timing so therefore pitching is about upsetting a hitters timing - and nothing does that better than changing speeds. I also geared my velo back to 90 in order to command the baseball better. That proved to be a successful formula for me. So, based on my own personal experience I would rank the importance of things this way:
1. Changing speeds. 2. Movement 3. Velo I will close by saying, if you haven’t ever done it yourself your perspective on how to pitch is pretty limited. IMO baseball is not something that you can learn well by osmosis.
