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Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

BishopLeftiesDadBishopLeftiesDad10,000+ posts
I would like some feedback. I currently do not have any young players, but I am asked this all the time, because I have a son pitching in College.

When he was young did we worry about velocity?

I have always told my son and others that he was to focus on accuracy and throwing strikes. That as he continued lifting and his mechanics that velocity would follow.

Now I am wondering if this may not be the best policy.

Many talk about having velocity and if you have that Accuracy may be taught.

Let the discussion start.

PS. Sorry if I am beating a dead horse or starting up a fire storm but I am questioning this advice and want to see what people have to say.
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Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BishopLeftiesDad:… I have always told my son and others that he was to focus on accuracy and throwing strikes. That is he continued lifting and his mechanics that velocity would follow.

Now I am wondering if this may not be the best policy.

Many talk about having velocity and if you have that Accuracy may be taught….


There’s a component to the answer that is very very seldom discussed. Just how much would velocity increase if all the madness centered purely on it was forsaken, and nature was allowed to take its course.

I’ll agree that velocity can be “manufactured” at early ages, but what does that really do other than put those with extremely good velocity at much more risk of injury because they’re in much more demand?

And in the end, how does anyone really know that a player who eventually throws say 94 as a 20YO wouldn’t have gotten there no matter what he did to maximize his velocity from 8 to 19?

The part of it that has always kinda made me shake my head in wonder is, when great pitchers are talked about, it isn’t that they suddenly learned how to throw hard, in fact its quite the opposite. Its when they learn that other things like control and movement are mixed in, that they’re spoken of as PITCHERS rather than THROWERS. Of course there’s a huge individual component to it.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
I tend to think that velocity is something that will come naturaly. I believe there are things that can be done to help that along, but being able to throw 90+ is either in the genes or not.

I think focusing on accuracy is the right answer. However, put a caveat into it that velocity is important as well. If you don't have accuracy, you won't last very long on the mound. If you are up there walking guys and hitting guys, no matter how hard you throw, you won't be given a chance.

Mechanics are very important. I think the correct mechanics will serve to help minimize the chances of injury, improve accuracy AND improve velocity.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
…However, put a caveat into it that velocity is important as well. …


Far too many folks wrongly ASSUME that if someone like you or I doesn’t kiss the velocity ring, we think its not very important, but usually that’s far from the truth. As you noted, velocity is important, but there are other things that go with it. Personally, I’d like a guy who throws a 100+mph FB, an 80mph CU, a hook that breaks 3’, a sinker that drops a foot and breaks to the pitching hand side another foot, and are all thrown at 80%+ strike percentage.

Sadly though, that only describes what some parents BELIEVE is true about their son. In truth, it describes no one, but there are a lot of different ways to get to a high level of success, and for every pitcher its slightly different.
BumBum1,000+ posts
Velocity and accuracy are not mutually exclusive. They are complementing factors. The same training that focuses on core strength, balance, and proper mechanic maximizes both velocity and accuracy.

BTW you can have good velocity and poor accuracy and they'll work with you but not the other way around. Therefore, velocity is the trump card.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
… BTW you can have good velocity and poor accuracy and they'll work with you but not the other way around. Therefore, velocity is the trump card.


What evidence is there proving that, other than what people think is true. One only needs to look at a pitcher who throw ‘pus’ and is expected to get pounded around, but doesn’t, to see that low velocity isn’t a guarantee of anything.
BumBum1,000+ posts
The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.

At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.
Last edited by Bum
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.

At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.


I agree with what you are saying BUM, but the OP is asking about what advice to give to youth pitchers. I say encourage throwing a lot, not necessarily pitching, core work, mechanics. All these things will lead to more velocity as young throwers get older and can increase velocity.

Here's the other thing. I believe you are correct about getting to the MLB level when you are throwing in the 90's. However, as a youth pitcher, if you are out there playing tournaments and you can't throw a strike, you won't be out there long. If you focus on mechanics and accuracy as a youth, those attributes will serve you well as you move up the ladder.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying velocity isn't important. To get into the MLB and into many college programs, it is imperative. However, we are talking about advice for youth pitchers. Velocity will come with age and strength - along with decent mechanics. I still say focus on accuracy with the caveat that velocity is important as well.
Last edited by bballman
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Velocity determines if you're a MLB prospect.

When or how that velocity happens doesn't make much difference.

Accuracy, movement, and everything else separates those who have the necessary velocity. A few might sneak by without the necessary velocity.

There really is no reason to think otherwise. Among all those so called "Radar Gun Lovers" is the scouting community. In fact, it's the scouting community that purchases most of the Radar Guns.

Every report turned in will include one thing... Velocity. No reports that mention, good control, good curve ball, good change up, with no mention of velocity.

There is still a place for those who are good pitchers lacking velocity. But very few of these type pitchers will be draft picks or recruited at high level DI colleges.

Those of us that believe in the importance of velocity, didn't just decide on our own. We are just following what is going on.

Remember this, there are many examples where the velocity comes late. My own son went from mid 80s in HS to mid 90s a couple years later. Went from no DI interest to serious pro interest in one year.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
There is no question at all that velocity is necessary to make it to the MLB. The OP is asking what advice to give to youth pitchers. Given that probably 0.5% of these players will reach the MLB, is it your contention - PG and BUM - the the advice to give to youth pitchers is to work on velocity first and foremost?

Not saying it shouldn't be. Just asking if that's what you think the advice should be to youth pitchers as opposed to what is needed to make it to the MLB? I don't know, maybe they are one in the same.
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
I agree with what you are saying BUM, but the OP is asking about what advice to give to youth pitchers. I say encourage throwing a lot, not necessarily pitching, core work, mechanics. All these things will lead to more velocity as young throwers get older and can increase velocity.


This is correct. Bum, Jr. long-tossed year-round, even in winter but also regularly received mechanical training from a D1 college pitching coach (not the coach of his eventual school, who nearly ruined him). All of the training, core work, long-tossing, band work, and plyometrics led to the same goal: Increased velocity AND command.

Like I said earlier, velocity and accuracy are two sides of the same coin. I'm not sure why people automatically assume the kid that throws hard can never find the strike zone. Actually, especially in college and beyond, the harder throwers are more likely to also have command.

Think about it this way. If you implant the idea into a youth pitcher to not focus on velocity, just work the corners, work on the offspeed pitches.. for what? Only to be told later you're not good enough to go to the next level (due to lack of velocity)? What's the point.

The primary focus HAS to be on velocity. Get that velocity first, and then learn to harness it and refine it.

I was looking at Bum Jr.'s travel team alumni roster this morning. It is chalk full of 86-87 guys that never took it to the next level. It also contained names of guys that were 88-90 in h.s. that are now in pro ball. Velocity was the difference.
Last edited by Bum
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
There is no question at all that velocity is necessary to make it to the MLB. The OP is asking what advice to give to youth pitchers. Given that probably 0.5% of these players will reach the MLB, is it your contention - PG and BUM - the the advice to give to youth pitchers is to work on velocity first and foremost?

Not saying it shouldn't be. Just asking if that's what you think the advice should be to youth pitchers as opposed to what is needed to make it to the MLB? I don't know, maybe they are one in the same.


Putting thoughts of playing MLB aside, better velocity will get you into a better college program. A better college program may lead to better instruction, and possibly a chance to advance in the game.

I agree with both PG and BUM. We've had some heated discussions here about this and what advice to give young pitchers. Velocity, and more reliance on the FB, whether accurate or not.

Too many young pitchers using off speed and breaking stuff, then they get to HS and they see the guys throwing heat (and not as accurate) getting opportunities while they don't. And as PG mentioned, sometimes it comes later for some than others, never stop working on your FB, your mechanics, conditioning.

Most of those guys throwing heat in MLB didn't all have it in HS or college.
L laflippin100+ posts
As TPM and others have suggested, this is a perrenially recurring topic.

TPM, PGStaff, and Bum have a tremendous amount of experience between them and their analysis and opinions of this subject lead to very similar conclusions....this is potent agreement and it rings true.

For most, some of the important levels of baseball to consider after youth rec ball are:

1. JV HS ball (if you were any good in rec ball, you should get a reasonable chance to play JV HS ball...that's where the honeymoon seems to end).
2. Varsity HS ball (played at many different levels)
3. College baseball (played at many different levels)
4. Pro ball (played at many different levels)

I fully agree with the group here that says: An appropriate level of velocity is, with only a few exceptions, the prerequisite for making a transition to the next level, wherever you happen to be on the spectrum. Experienced scouts and coaches at every level know what velocity ranges work for their programs...it is the young players and/or their parents who often have the hardest time matching up their current ability to the various levels of opportunity in baseball.

The few exceptions to the "velocity uber alles" idea might include a demonstrated outstanding ability to get good hitters out w/ a specialty pitch or unusual delivery.

PGStaff said it well....whether you like it or not, every type of pitcher scouting report includes a number for FB velocity. Whether you think it's fair or not, it is very important to have a clear idea about what factors the next-level coaches and scouts take into account when making their judgements about you.
Last edited by laflippin
S Skylark100+ posts
I know that the times when my son feels his best is not necessarily when he throws a gem but actually when his arm felt fresh and he was throwing hard. He knows his accuracy suffers when he tries to pump up the velocity a notch or two. But he also realizes that magical velocity of being noticed will not be achieved without trying to throw harder

My son has set his own personal goals each season on what he wants to achieve. The biggest goal he has for each season is gaining a certain amount of velocity. His ultimate goal for hs is to throw and touch 90 his senior season. Whether he gets there or not may be out of his ultimate control but its better to set your sights higher and miss than to achieve mediocrity with too easy of goals.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
I know that the times when my son feels his best is not necessarily when he throws a gem but actually when his arm felt fresh and he was throwing hard. He knows his accuracy suffers when he tries to pump up the velocity a notch or two. But he also realizes that magical velocity of being noticed will not be achieved without trying to throw harder.


How refreshing to hear that and not get how better it is to be successful throwing off speed.

I think sometimes when we try to instill that winning is more important over development that often happens. For a young player, it's ok not to be accurate, it's ok not to be the best because of wins. Those players often are the ones who find it very frustrating that being accurate wasn't always in their best interests.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
…Whether he gets there or not may be out of his ultimate control but its better to set your sights higher and miss than to achieve mediocrity with too easy of goals.


If its so easy to throw a ball with a great deal of accuracy and movement, why is it that more pitchers can’t/won’t/don’t do it? I posit its because throwing with accuracy and/or movement is a skill rather than the blind luck of genetics.
L laflippin100+ posts
stats,

I think we're going to see a profound backlash against invoking genetics as a too-easy explanation for physical performance (or lack thereof)...within reasonable boundaries, of course.

We seem to have quite a number of internet experts invoking the immutability of fast-twitch/slow-twitch muscle ratios these days without much obvious evidence that they really know what they're talking about. Meanwhile, successful athletes in every sport appear to work smart, work hard, and work continuously toward their goals....mostly outside of the public eye. Out of sight/out of mind, and with no special concern for the potential limitations of their fast-twitch muscle ratio.

One of my son's great coaches has always tried to instill this simple philosophy, "Do the right thing, even when nobody is watching".

It took awhile to figure out the full meaning of that simple idea....my first impression of it was too limited, I admit.
Last edited by laflippin
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Stats,

No one is saying throwing accurately with movement is "easy". Yes, it is definitely a skill. A very important skill, that becomes much more important at higher velocities.


True. But basing everything on high velocities for kids, which is what the OP was about, is IMHO concentrating on something that’s totally unnecessary. What ends up happening more often than not is, the kids with the abnormally high velocities are given the ball much more often, even though they may not have more success. That additional stress on a young arm is often the beginnings of later arm issues because of overuse/abuse.

Who’s gonna get asked to pitch for multiple teams during a season? Will it be the kid who has lots of success getting batters out with command and movement, or will it be coaches enamored with velocity seeking out numbers on a gun?

Not every 12yo player will play 2 or 3 higher levels, but there’s a lot that could have great success at the level they’re playing at. Why denigrate them by not allowing them to have as many opportunities as some kid who does nothing but throw the ball harder, often with not as much success? Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is interested in putting money in someone’s pocket for “finding” them. Many kids just want to do what they can and have a good time doing it.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
If I were the coach I would ask the player who has command and movement because for most at that age it's about winning and not development.

The problem becomes one when the HS player who wants to go to ABC U or wants to know why no pro scouts are interested because he is just barely topping out at 83-85. His dad had told him when it was time to start looking for college opportunities not to worry about throwing harder because he won more games with his off speed junk stuff, than the guy with the heat and crazy movement who couldn't get guys out.
Last edited by TPM
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
How about developing accuracy with the fastball? TPM, not trying to put down your point of view, but your posts all mention throwing junk and off speed stuff. Is there anything wrong with developing accuracy with your fastball as a tool?

I have never said to focus on accuracy at the expense of velocity with the fastball. I personally think that much of what you need to do to develop velocity can and is done away from the mound. Core work, long toss, weight work, some running to develop stamina, etc. How about doing all that, but when you are on the mound doing bullpens, work on accuracy. With the fastball. I think people are assuming that working on accuracy means you are just going to be a low velocity guy. Not necessarily true. Velocity will come as you get older. I don't see what's wrong with working on accuracy when you are younger, so when you get older and start developing big velocity, the tools for accuracy are there.

Once again, off the mound, work on things to set a basis for velocity - while on the mound, work on putting the ball where you want. As you get older, hopefully the two will come together to make one heck of a pitcher.
Last edited by bballman
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
How about developing accuracy with the fastball? TPM, not trying to put down your point of view, but your posts all mention throwing junk and off speed stuff. Is there anything wrong with developing accuracy with your fastball as a tool?

I have never said to focus on accuracy at the expense of velocity with the fastball. I personally think that much of what you need to do to develop velocity can and is done away from the mound. Core work, long toss, weight work, some running to develop stamina, etc. How about doing all that, but when you are on the mound doing bullpens, work on accuracy. With the fastball. I think people are assuming that working on accuracy means you are just going to be a low velocity guy. Not necessarily true. Velocity will come as you get older. I don't see what's wrong with working on accuracy when you are younger, so when you get older and start developing big velocity, the tools for accuracy are there.

Once again, off the mound, work on things to set a basis for velocity - while on the mound, work on putting the ball where you want. As you get older, hopefully the two will come together to make one heck of a pitcher.


You have to train for velocity just like you do accuracy and you can do them both at the same time. Shouldn't you use flat ground to work on your stuff and the mound for velocity AND stuff? To throw hard from the mound, you have to throw hard. That doesn;t mean throw with your arm. I agree, it's an on going process, and yes you have to work on what helps with velocity on and off the field but you can't just say let's get accurate and worry about speed later on. I may be misunderstanding your point.

I agree with what Bum has said, velocity always should be the prime goal and always in the discussion. I refer to it as junk because IMO everything else is second to the FB. There are pitchers out there who rely very little on their FB.

Why wait for later IF velocity comes.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
If I were the coach I would ask the player who has command and movement because for most at that age it's about winning and not development.

The problem becomes one when the HS player who wants to go to ABC U or wants to know why no pro scouts are interested because he is just barely topping out at 83-85. His dad had told him when it was time to start looking for college opportunities not to worry about throwing harder because he won more games with his off speed junk stuff, than the guy with the heat and crazy movement who couldn't get guys out.


Offspeed definately has its place in high school. I have yet to see any successful varsity pitcher who just throws fastballs. Colleges and pro scouts definately look at the quality and control of a pitchers offspeed pitches. In high school, if you do not have good offspeed stuff you will not last very long.

High school kids have to balance between trying to compete and win and developing velocity to get them to the next level. Some of my sons best outings from last season were when he was throwing soft and had exceptional control. Then again, some of his outings when he was throwing hard were very effective also.

Bottom line- you need velocity and good offspeed stuff. Not every hs kid throws 90 or higher.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
…Bottom line- you need velocity and good offspeed stuff. Not every hs kid throws 90 or higher.


Excellent observation!

There are approximately 16,000 HS baseball programs, most with a JV and V for approximately 30,000 HS teams. At only 4 pitchers per team, that’s about 120,000 HS pitchers. If anyone truly believes they all, or even a significant portion of them are throwing 90+, they’re just kidding themselves. My point is, there’s a whole lot of innings that are going to have to be thrown by kids who throw significantly slower than 90, and at least a fair portion of those who throw less than 80.

Since that’s going to be true no matter how much people want to believe otherwise, why not just accept it and make sure as many as possible at least develop the command and control that will allow them to be of great benefit to their teams? HS baseball isn’t about only the best players who have the capacity to play at the next 3 levels!
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
There are approximately 16,000 HS baseball programs, most with a JV and V for approximately 30,000 HS teams. At only 4 pitchers per team, that’s about 120,000 HS pitchers. If anyone truly believes they all, or even a significant portion of them are throwing 90+, they’re just kidding themselves. My point is, there’s a whole lot of innings that are going to have to be thrown by kids who throw significantly slower than 90, and at least a fair portion of those who throw less than 80.

Since that’s going to be true no matter how much people want to believe otherwise, why not just accept it and make sure as many as possible at least develop the command and control that will allow them to be of great benefit to their teams? HS baseball isn’t about only the best players who have the capacity to play at the next 3 levels!


Yes, but I remember h.s. baseball very well. Nearly every parent watching their son pitch at that level talked about their son making it to the next level. If we can assume the kid wanted it to, there were a lot of false hopes. At that time, I could look at the mere mechanics of the player and know that was not going to happen.

Decide. If you know baseball will end after h.s. great, throw all the junk pitches you want. If you think there's a chance, even a small chance, of competing at the next level, you need to learn how to compete with the fastball first and foremost.

And to get the most out of the fastball, you need solid instruction.

What I'm saying is don't think you're going to impress some scout with your knuckle ball or slurve when your fastball is 78. Even if you're 15-0 no one will care.
Last edited by Bum
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
quote:
Originally posted by BishopLeftiesDad:
I currently do not have any young players, but I am asked this all the time, because I have a son pitching in College.

When he was young did we worry about velocity?

I have always told my son and others that he was to focus on accuracy and throwing strikes. That is he continued lifting and his mechanics that velocity would follow.

Now I am wondering if this may not be the best policy.

Many talk about having velocity and if you have that Accuracy may be taught.



Bishop,
Not sure exactly what age group you are referring to when you talk about working with young players but I think I can relate. Early on, I handled things similarly (focus on accuracy) with LL and early teen age kids. Now, I don't think that was the best path and I do things a bit differently.

Generally, with that age I think it is best to teach mechanics, then effort, then location, all in a fairly short timeframe. From there, continue to refine, understanding that they are all interlinked. Long toss w/ proper mechanics is an important piece as well. This puts a young player on a path that allows them to maximize their velocity potential down the road when specific conditioning and natural growth are added to the mix.
Last edited by cabbagedad
BishopLeftiesDadBishopLeftiesDad10,000+ posts
I thanks you all for your input.

I get these questions because my son plays in college with aspirations to play beyond.

I think most of the people asking hope the same for there son.

I will probably be updating my advice and telling with peoples suggestions.

After reading every thing I believe Cabbage Dad's last post probably sums up best what I have taken from this thread.

I will also stress, as I already do, to have a good weight program. But this is another discussion.

Thanks a lot for all the responses.

Bum yours were especially helpful. Why most of these kids may never get to college I would still like to provide the proper advice to help them achieve it.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
Bum,

Sure, almost all parents of all pitchers talk about their son pitching at the next level. So what? Almost all parents of all hitters do the same thing. What percentage of them is going to play at that next level though? As my dad said, “Wish in one hand and doo-doo in the other and see which one fills up first”. The fact remains that the percentage of innings thrown by HS pitchers who throw 85+ leaves one heck of a lot of innings to pitch.

And why is it that saying velocity isn’t the highest priority automatically means throwing nothing but “junk pitches”? What will 99% of all HS hitters who have a pitcher throw an 82 MPH FB where he wants it, followed by a 74MPH CU where he wants it do? Do you think they’ll all pound the ball deep over the center field fence? If you do, you’re kidding yourself, and you don’t know much about the game.

Like most others, your assumption is that everything is centered around the scouts, and you couldn’t be more wrong. A couple years back we had a kid drafted 113th. When he threw the scouts were coming out of the woodwork, but when he wasn’t pitching, there weren’t any scouts there. Does that me those games meant nothing and should have been cancelled? As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

What will 99% of all HS hitters who have a pitcher throw an 82 MPH FB where he wants it, followed by a 74MPH CU where he wants it do? Do you think they’ll all pound the ball deep over the center field fence?


I agree. But, the margin of error at the next level is exceedingly smaller. And the "stuff" that profiles to be above average in high school isn't always above average at the next level. Coaches and scouts are aware of the talent parallels and actively seek out high school talent as such.

quote:
As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.


I don't think anyone here is undermining the significance of a good high school pitcher. However, college coaches and amateur scouts don't care if the pitcher they're recruiting/scouting wins or loses. They care about the stuff that he is projected to bring to the table in the future. And that "stuff" starts with velocity.
Last edited by J H
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
I don't think anyone here is undermining the significance of a good high school pitcher. However, college coaches and amateur scouts don't care if the pitcher they're recruiting/scouting wins or loses. They care about the stuff that he is projected to bring to the table in the future. And that "stuff" starts with velocity.


I agree.

Stats,
There was a question asked by BishopsLeftyDad for reason he stated, his son would like to play beyond college. I think the answers given about the importance of velocity were appropriate for anyone who is interested in playing beyond HS either in college or pro.

If a player has no interest in playing beyond HS, it's not going to be important. As Josh suggests, you can be a great HS pitcher, throw off speed after off speed with a slower FB and get everyone out, but the reality is, as stated, that is as far as you will get.

If you look at this forum you see lots of questions asked regarding velocity.

It is important and from what I gather, most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS.
S Skylark100+ posts
Whereas velocity is king to get to the next level, I have never heard of a prospect in hs who doesnt work on his control and the movement and quality of all his pitches. My son really struggled this year with his breaking ball and spent a lot of time both in games and in bullpens on learning to better control it. Of course his main overall concern is keeping his arm healthy and building fastball velocity to get him better options of playing at the next level. But, in truth, he spent more time this year on his breaking ball than anything else. Why? Because 75% of hits and runs were coming off of hung sliders. Here is what I have noticed-

Higher velocity in HS pitchers is almost always accompanied with said pitcher to also have above average general control and above average quality in his offspeed pitches. They all go hand in hand. Good HS pitching prospects spend more time working on all facets of their game.
BumBum1,000+ posts
That's right, Skylark. The top pitchers learn to locate their fastballs but they also develop their other pitches. Unless your fastball is 90+ out of h.s. you still have to have an offspeed pitch for D1 colleges to be interested. After all, they are paid to win NOW not develop. The pros would most like be interested, though. They have time to develop a pitcher out of h.s.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
This is why I log onto HSBBW to be enlightened by folks like you. I'll let you know when you've accomplished that.


I love it when great minds like yours throw out of context quotes out there, then make some kind of comment that makes it seem as though the person you quoted is some kind of fool. The comment you quoted was in reference to what came before it, not a statement in and of itself, and you know it.

So why not just comment on the entire statement? Do you believe all 99% of all HS hitters in that situation will pound the ball deep over the center field fence or not? Why do you believe pitchers of all kinds of skills and potentials can’t have tremendous success in HS?
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Bishop

quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
I agree.

Stats,
There was a question asked by BishopsLeftyDad for reason he stated, his son would like to play beyond college. I think the answers given about the importance of velocity were appropriate for anyone who is interested in playing beyond HS either in college or pro.

If a player has no interest in playing beyond HS, it's not going to be important. As Josh suggests, you can be a great HS pitcher, throw off speed after off speed with a slower FB and get everyone out, but the reality is, as stated, that is as far as you will get.

If you look at this forum you see lots of questions asked regarding velocity.

It is important and from what I gather, most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS.


Maybe you need to go back and read the OP again, because that’s what I was basing my responses on. And again, you characterize pitchers with a “slower FB” as throwing “off speed after off speed”, with what proof? Just because a kid tops out at less than 85 doesn’t mean he doesn’t base everything off his FB. In fact, I’ve personally seen very few HS pitchers who throw that way, even with FBs lower than 75. The other pitches work because of the deception and differences in movement and velocity, no matter how had the FB is thrown. Given all other things are equal, will they work better with a higher velocity FB? Of course, but that doesn’t mean they won’t work.

So what if “most everyone here is interested in seeing their kids get to play past HS”? Does that mean people like myself who aren’t or who don’t have kids in the game any longer should be ridiculed or not allowed to post?
J HJ H5,000+ posts
Stats- I'm not really following the basis for your argument. The question was about a young pitcher's focus on velocity vs. accuracy. It didn't ask if a pitcher can be effective at the high school level with a lack of velocity.

No one is arguing with you about anything. Of course there are many high school pitchers that are extremely successful with low levels of velocity. And yes, the truth is that those kids will probably not get a look at the next level due to that velocity.

What point are you trying to make in relation to the OP?
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
All phases of pitching are important. It's fun to watch a slower velocity good pitcher carve up a good hitting lineup. Have seen it any times. Often referred to as pitching below hitting speed. There's no debating the fact that winning games can be accomplished without great velocity.

There are opinions and there is proof. No matter what I might think, the proof is provided by studying the draft and recruiting at the top college level. That shows us what is most important. It doesn't mean the others don't count. It doesn't mean they are not highly skilled. It just proves what the higher levels want. What they think it takes to help their team.

Also, all things other than velocity are very important considerations. That is why we see pitchers capable of throwing 90+ actually pitching at lower velocities. It's because they are able to add movement, accuracy, deception, etc., by subtracting velocity. Even at that, it's not always the guy who touches the highest velocity that gets drafted first. Good at 93 can be better than bad at 96.

The highest velocity pitchers we have ever recorded at PG events were not the first HS pitcher drafted. Few years ago, there was a HS pitcher that touched 101. Not talking about Colt Griffin. This kid went in the second round, after some 15-20 pitchers were selected. All pitchers before him threw at least low 90s or better. If it were velocity alone, things like this wouldn't happen. It proves the other stuff is very important and it also proves a certain amount of velocity is almost mandatory when it comes to decision makers at a high level. Obviously things are different when it comes to being a successful pitcher in youth baseball or even high school or even lower levels of college baseball.

Now it's always possible that some would debate that these decision makers are wrong. But there's no question about how they operate. A little research can give us the answer to that. Maybe that will change someday, but for now... It is what it is! Speed counts... Running speed, bat speed, hand speed, fastball speed, even breaking ball speed. And when someone has the ability to throw upper 80 sliders or 80+ curve balls they're not going to pick the guy with a low 80s fastball?

Is there more to baseball than the higher levels? Absolutely! And it's all great! Should young kids hope and dream? Absolutely! Should they understand how it works? I think they should because they're going to find out at some point. Knowing what it takes and trying to get there can prove to be very valuable even if things don't work out. It's the only way to reach anything near your potential. When that happens it's a great accomplishment no matter how things turn out.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
…What point are you trying to make in relation to the OP?


I sure thought the OP was asking specifically about young players. It said his son had not focused on velocity, but rather “accuracy and throwing strikes”, and that now the boy was playing in college. But as soon as velocity creeps into a thread, the next thing that takes place is, everyone begins talking about scouts and ML contracts.

All I’m saying is, that kind of thinking does nothing for the enjoyment of the vast majority of players who don’t have the capacity to be in the top couple of percent as far as velocity goes, and it does nothing to help teams play or win ball who don’t have the velocity studs.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Stats,
I think that you are making more of this thasn actually there is.

There is no argument that a good HS pitcher doesn't have to have high velocity. And for sure not everyone has it.

What I got out of the OP's post was what was more important advice to give to a young pitcher, do you work on developing accuracy or work on developing speed and of course you work on both. And of course it isn't just about having a FB, but secondary stuff as well. My opinion is, in order to have really good secondary stuff, you have to have a good FB to work off of. Therefore, my advice is and has always been work on that pitch and learn about the importance of throwing it hard, even if all you ever do is pitch in HS.

This board isn't all about just making the HS team anymore.

I understand that you had a pitcher that was very good in HS but did not make it beyond, for various reasons. What were they? Maybe he wasn't interested?

You can't tell me if you interviewed a pre HS or HS travel team you won't get anyone telling you that they are not interested in playing beyond HS.

FWIW, the cardinals just protected 4 pitchers in their system for the 40 man roster out of possibly many that even held better ERA's and w-l.

What would you suppose the reason was? It could be the same reason a college coach recruits a pitcher with higher velocity over one that relies more on his breaking stuff to get people out.

JMO.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
TPM,

It seems you just can’t help yourself, slipping back into the velocity above all mindset, but believe me I do understand. FYI, my son pitched in college, and did very well there too, thank you. The main reason he didn’t go beyond was, he never fully recovered from shoulder surgery. And FWIW, he pitched the same way in college he did in HS, relying on control, command, and using his FB only as a setup pitch, not an out pitch. In his final year in HS he was clocked as high as 89, which for a 5/9”/135# 17YO isn’t really all that bad.

But back to my original point, what about the 95% of players who never get to throw a 90+ FB? What are the chances that if they got the same number of opportunities that the 5% got, some would eventually prove to be just as effective? And that’s all I’m saying. I really don’t understand why so many people seem so afraid of simply giving opportunities to those pitchers who get batters out without all the hoopla a high K rate, especially when they are the norm.

We didn’t have even 1 pitcher on our roster this past season who could touch more than 84mp, but we came within a game of a section championship, so its not as though what I’m suggesting isn’t possible. It has only to do with maximizing the chances to win at the current level, without having stud pitchers.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
FYI, my son pitched in college, and did very well there too, thank you. The main reason he didn’t go beyond was, he never fully recovered from shoulder surgery.


So you are saying that if he had not had shoulder surgery that he would have been drafted?

Where did he go and what was his record in college?
Share. He pitched 4 years in college?

Just curious. Why do you suppose he had shoulder surgery, overused? Too many cbs too young?

I am going to refer to the pro mindset, I get lots of questions asked about it, especially in how hard did your son throw and how many pitches did he have, etc.

You know what, I had no clue in HS what his velocity was until he hit 90. And I will always tell those that ask to not get caught up in the numbers thing, but rather just keep developing as a pitcher using your FB.

So you really don't know anything much about me at all, other than my philosophy but not anything as to how much importance I feel development is, not necessarily the W.

Again ask parents (why they spend) and players who attend big tournies, camps and showcases why they spend lots of $$ if there is no desire to play past HS or college.

Why a team that can't hit over 84 almost won a section championship to me doesn't necessarily mean that they were better pitchers than others who pitch faster and harder. The question asked had nothing to do with having studs on the team or not. We all understand you do not have to be accurate to be good and you don't have to throw hard to be good either in HS, or perhaps college.

This discussion was, I thought, about reaching the pro level. Therefore, I concur with Bum and others.
Last edited by TPM
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
Part of the problem here is that I don't believe it was ever stated what level a youth pitcher wants to attain. The OP stated that he is the dad of a college pitcher and often has parents of younger players that ask him if they should be focusing on accuracy or velocity. There is no question, you want to make it to MiLB or MLB, you need to be hitting 90 - at least. It is the majic number. So, what I see this has become is a matter of - if you want to be a successful HS pitcher, what do you need to do vs. if you want to be a successful college pitcher, what do you need to do vs. if you want to make it beyond college, what do you need to do? And there are obviously 3 different answers to those three questions.

I think different people have made valid points for each one of those categories, so I'm not going to go through all of them again. My son is a college pitcher who has yet to hit 90. I often tell him to keep working hard because if you want to go beyond college, you will need to hit at least 90.

Of a more general nature in answer to the question is the philosophical debate of whether high velocities can be attained by hard work and mechanics, or if there is a certain degree of genetics involved. There is also the question of how do you know if you have the genetics, unless you nuture your talent and do everything you can to attain that max velocity that is in your genes.

One more question is how young should a pitcher try throwing as hard as they can in order to throw with maximum velocity. I think if you start too young, you risk injury due to immature musculature, tendons and bones. So, if what I think is true, do you start with working on accuracy? And if so, what age does it become safe to focus primarily on velocity? Is it at 12yrs old, freshman in HS, or junior in HS? To be honest with you, I'm not sure. I know if your goal is to play pro ball or major DI, it needs to be sometime before junior year in HS. Or if I'm wrong, do you start at 7 years old trying to just throw as hard as you can?

I think bottom line is a balance of the two. As I stated in my first post, work on accuracy and mechanics, but don't forget that velocity is important. I will add that - at a certain point in your development, depending on your goal - velocity becomes paramount and that must be worked on HARD, or you will not reach the pinnacle - MLB.

That's my ramble and JMHO.
S smalltownmom100+ posts
Quote:
______________
Like most others, your assumption is that everything is centered around the scouts, and you couldn’t be more wrong. A couple years back we had a kid drafted 113th. When he threw the scouts were coming out of the woodwork, but when he wasn’t pitching, there weren’t any scouts there. Does that me those games meant nothing and should have been cancelled? As it turns out, he was 5-4 that year and we lost more games with him pitching than anyone else. For him it meant nothing since he got drafted anyway, but because all those other innings thrown by kids you would characterize as no good, we had a winning season and almost won the section title.
_______________________

Did he pitch the toughest games against the best teams? Probably. In high school some of the best pitchers are also key position players. Was he? In other words, when he pitched was the defense weakened? And please be honest with yourself. Thank goodness college coaches and scouts don't care about high school wins and losses, because often they don't men poop. In high school, I have seen average pitchers with extremely good eras and W-L record, but they didn't play a team with a record over .500. Comparing pitchers based on HS stats and W-L record is like comparing apples and oranges. Coaches and scouts know what they are looking for, and there is a reason they do it and not us.
________

In my mind this velocity vs accuracy debate is actually a continuum. You can't look at someone and not help but observe what he has. Good at one and you'll probably get a little leeway with the other. But it goes without saying there needs to be at least some hint of velocity to come.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
So you are saying that if he had not had shoulder surgery that he would have been drafted?


I’ll never know if he’d have been drafted or not, but there are other pro venues besides the MLB.

quote:
Where did he go and what was his record in college?


Why should I share that? All you’d do is pick at it trying to make me look foolish and him bad.

quote:
Share. He pitched 4 years in college?


No.

quote:
Just curious. Why do you suppose he had shoulder surgery, overused? Too many cbs too young?


We have a pretty good idea why he needed surgery, and throwing too many cbs had little or nothing to do with it.

quote:
I am going to refer to the pro mindset, I get lots of questions asked about it, especially in how hard did your son throw and how many pitches did he have, etc.

You know what, I had no clue in HS what his velocity was until he hit 90. And I will always tell those that ask to not get caught up in the numbers thing, but rather just keep developing as a pitcher using your FB.

So you really don't know anything much about me at all, other than my philosophy but not anything as to how much importance I feel development is, not necessarily the W.


You can say anything you want to people, but even those parents with the lowest expectations huddle around a radar gun when their son is being “shot”. That’s why I seriously doubt you had “no clue” until he hit 90.

You’d be surprised at how much I know about you, and to tell the truth, since you want to know what my boy’s record was in college, that pretty much tells everyone how much importance you put on a “W”.

quote:
Again ask parents (why they spend) and players who attend big tournies, camps and showcases why they spend lots of $$ if there is no desire to play past HS or college.


What percentage of players do you believe attend big tournaments, camps, and showcases? 0

quote:
Why a team that can't hit over 84 almost won a section championship to me doesn't necessarily mean that they were better pitchers than others who pitch faster and harder. The question asked had nothing to do with having studs on the team or not. We all understand you do not have to be accurate to be good and you don't have to throw hard to be good either in HS, or perhaps college.


That’s correct. But it also doesn’t mean they weren’t better pitchers either.

[/QUOTE]This discussion was, I thought, about reaching the pro level. Therefore, I concur with Bum and others.[/QUOTE]

And there it is. You thought it was about reaching the pro level, and I thought it was about what was most important to teach youngsters. So because we had different understandings of what the discussion was about, of course you’re always right and I’m always wrong.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by smalltownmom:
Did he pitch the toughest games against the best teams? Probably.


You couldn’t be more wrong. We won only one game with him on the mound against any team playing better than .500 ball, and of his 4 losses, all were against teams playing sub .500 ball.

quote:
In high school some of the best pitchers are also key position players. Was he? In other words, when he pitched was the defense weakened? And please be honest with yourself.


I am honest with myself because I have no kid on the team to sway my thinkin gone way or the other. In fact, when he was playing 3rd, the defense was weaker than when his FR replacement was in there.

quote:
Thank goodness college coaches and scouts don't care about high school wins and losses, because often they don't men poop. In high school, I have seen average pitchers with extremely good eras and W-L record, but they didn't play a team with a record over .500. Comparing pitchers based on HS stats and W-L record is like comparing apples and oranges. Coaches and scouts know what they are looking for, and there is a reason they do it and not us.


As I said, I have no reason not to be honest with myself, and can say with all certainty that while you are likely correct in the majority of cases, in this particular case you couldn’t be more wrong.

quote:
In my mind this velocity vs accuracy debate is actually a continuum. You can't look at someone and not help but observe what he has. Good at one and you'll probably get a little leeway with the other. But it goes without saying there needs to be at least some hint of velocity to come.


Again, if you’re speaking in general terms, I’ll certainly agree. But blanket statements do no cover all players in all situations.
S smalltownmom100+ posts
quote:
Again, if you’re speaking in general terms, I’ll certainly agree. But blanket statements do no cover all players in all situations.

___________

You're right. I guess this was one of those exceptions.Smile But I would still maintain there is a hint of at least an average level of velocity to come from most of the kids that are more identified by accuracy or an off speed pitch.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
Actually a few people filled me in on info on your son. I guess it helps to understand a lot about why you do post the way you do.

What other pro venues besides MLB could have drafted him?


Since “a few other people” know so much about me and my son, why don’t you ask them? Just a hint. Don’t always trust what “a few other people” have to say about someone or something like this.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by smalltownmom:
You're right. I guess this was one of those exceptions.Smile But I would still maintain there is a hint of at least an average level of velocity to come from most of the kids that are more identified by accuracy or an off speed pitch.


Here’s what people more often than not seem to forget. In order for any off-speed pitch to be successful, it has to be measured relative to what the “speed” is that defines it. IOW, when you say off-speed, its only relative to what “on-speed” is. So in that sense, the FB is still the main basis of success, no matter what velocity it is. Wink
BumBum1,000+ posts
The top pitchers in h.s. in our area generally were also hard throwers. Bum, Jr. focused on velocity, definitely, but also had a superb curveball. 125 k's in 59 innings in h.s.

The fastball becomes more important as you move up. Not because of velocity because at the higher levels they ALL have velocity. But because if you've never learned to compete with the fastball, learned how to command it, it will be pounded.
S Skylark100+ posts
The top varsity pitchers around here, and I presume it is the same nationwide, all throw in the low to mid 80's with the elite throwers all in the upper 80's and low 90's. All of them whom I have seen who would ckassify as good or elite varsity pitchers, have at minimum, decent control coupled wirh at least one or more above average offspeed pitches. So I am a little unsure what exacly is being debated. For to be good in varsity ball one must have all three attributes to succeed regardless of their ambitions after high school. Good velocity, decent control, and at least one offspeed pitch. THOSE THREE ATTRIBUTES MUST OF COURSE BE WORKED ON before they get to HS varsiry ball. Whats most important? They are all coupled together and should be evenly applied getting to and through varsity hs ball. All good varsity pitchers can play beyond high school, it just depends mostly at tgat point your own ambition and talent kevel.

Every year around here I see kids who are upper 80's throwers who go to jc or other smaller levels of ball because either they lack control, grades, or basic ambition to go higher out of hs. I saw one kid in particular who thought for sure he woyld get drafted but lacked the control, emotions, etc. that would have got him there. He instead went to a small college.

wWe all know, as has been posted already, that velocity is a key factor in different options after high school. But, other factors do play a big role also as I have seen. Guys with lower velocities going to better college baseball programs becauae of their higher ability to control their pitches and better grades, etc.
H HayBull100+ posts
The OP concerned youth pitchers, pre HS I assume. I tell my young pitchers that all pitches have three things...1 - Velocity, 2 - Location and 3 - Movement and that to be complete pitchers they need to work on all 3 of these with their FBs, CUs and eventually their CBs. I don't understand how you could/would develop youth pitchers without focus on all of the above, regardless of their natural velocity,control or movement at any given age or starting point.
S Skylark100+ posts
At some point in youth age baseball, pitchers need to focus on certain aspects of their game. one of those aspects is velocity. I have seen a few pitchers who never focused on velocity and ended up being pitchers in hs who dont get the nod on the bump because they just dont throw hard enough. That all stemmed from never focusing on that aspect at the youth level. Whether you have genetics or not, velocity must be cultivated and grown. Some just have more natural abiliry to add more than others with the same amount of work. Varsity pitchers who cant at least hover at a minimum 80Mph will never be good hs pitchers.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by HayBull:
The OP concerned youth pitchers, pre HS I assume. I tell my young pitchers that all pitches have three things...1 - Velocity, 2 - Location and 3 - Movement and that to be complete pitchers they need to work on all 3 of these with their FBs, CUs and eventually their CBs. I don't understand how you could/would develop youth pitchers without focus on all of the above, regardless of their natural velocity,control or movement at any given age or starting point.


HayBull,

You seem to be one of the few who can do the mental gymnastics that allow you to separate the different levels of the game in your perspective. For many, the lure of Pro ball or large D1 ball is all consuming, and they can’t envision anything other than what it takes to get there.

Since it started playing V baseball, our school is 123-54, and of those, 11 wins and 5 losses have been thrown by a pitcher who can even touch 90. That leaves a heck of a lot of room other kids not nearly as gifted have to make up for. Now for sure in some schools there are more players who can hit that magic number, but for the most part, having to learn how to win without a kid who can do that is pretty commonplace. Since its so common, even in HS, why not just accept it and make sure the other facets of pitching are as strong as can be?
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
quote:
Since it started playing V baseball, our school is 123-54,


Nice point Stats. Let me guess.... 1. You have a high quality coach. 2. Your pitchers keep the ball down and change speeds. 3. You have solid defense. 4. You put the ball in play.

If you do that you are going to win more games (a lot)than you lose in HS.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Skylark,

I've actually seen HS pitchers that have been very successful throwing below 80 mph. In fact, there have been college pitchers that have been successful throwing around 80.

A while back I was at a AAA game and watched Jay Tessmer pitch. He was a closer that led the league in saves (google him). He topped out that day at 81 mph. Tessmer pitched in college at national power Miami and pitched briefly in the Big Leagues for the Yankees.

Truth is, anything is possible. There are always exceptions to the rule. Tessmer was a submariner, he threw a frisbee type slider as his main pitch. It was a very unusual pitch.

I agree that all things that help a pitcher should be worked on. Velocity, accuracy, movement, deception, etc. are all important. Often these things go hand and hand. From a mechanical standpoint, velocity and accuracy work together.

Every pitcher has a ceiling. This ceiling is based on natural ability and how much work is put in. Every pitcher should strive to reach his ceiling, whatever that might be.

The ability to throw harder than the next guy is important. The ability to throw with control is important. Everything is important! Sometimes position players with great arms and weak bat are converted to pitchers. Sometimes pitchers with great arms and lacking control are converted to position players.

So when it comes to velocity and accuracy... Why work on one when both are needed? We always hear people say, he is just a thrower, when describing someone with a great arm. Well, "throwing" is what pitchers do and they do it more than anyone. If you have the 5 best arms and I have 5 accurate soft throwers... I might win more games now, but as these pitchers develop, you will dominate.

So when you wonder why the pitcher who has more velocity and wins less games gets drafted or offered the big scholarship. It's all about the potential against a much higher caliber of competition.

Not everyone has the potential to throw with great velocity. But there is always a place for those pitchers who get the job done without good velocity. Be as good as you can be, that is what counts.
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
You seem to be one of the few who can do the mental gymnastics that allow you to separate the different levels of the game in your perspective. For many, the lure of Pro ball or large D1 ball is all consuming, and they can’t envision anything other than what it takes to get there.


Gnats, are you saying anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have the mental capacity? Don't take yourself so seriously.

For those of us who are fortunate to have players in D1 or pro ball I can tell you high school baseball was just as consuming, just as serious, as now. I can remember fretful nights worrying whether Bum, Jr. would make the high school team. Going back further, I can remember wondering if he'd ever find a good travel team.

This is the father of a kid who was dismissed at each level along the way.

High school baseball is not diminished by the thoughtful input of those of us who have gone through this gauntlet. High school baseball is an important test, a turning point in a young player's life (or career), and while I understand you having reservations about those of us who have seen our sons go beyond high school baseball don't think for a minute we are not so grounded as to remember how important those formulative years were.

I remember. I remember each game, the conversations, and even the box scores.

These high school players, nearly to a man, are on the field to prove themselves worthy of going to the next level. Such is life. Fluid. Proud of the accomplishments of today but always thinking about tommorow and what might come. Because when you stop thinking about tommorow you fail to dream and in the end baseball--and life itself--is all about the dream.

The dream is always the next level. Having not achieved that level is not nearly as important as whether you tried.
Last edited by Bum
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
Gnats, are you saying anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't have the mental capacity? Don't take yourself so seriously.


You asked a question, then before getting an answer, automatically made the ASSUMPTION you knew exactly what I was saying. And of course, when trying to guess what someone has in their mind, as usual you’d be wrong.

quote:
High school baseball is not diminished by the thoughtful input of those of us who have gone through this gauntlet.


Then why diminish what I have to say? If you’re saying I put no thought into what I say, I can understand, but I assure you, I seldom do that.

In the end, all I’ve said is that there is no reason to get obsessive about velocity, because there are many other ways to combine pitching skills to be successful.

As for remembering box scores, I have to admit you’re a better man than I. I kept score and did the stats for every single game my son played that I attended, from LL Minors through college, and I couldn’t remember a box score of any game even if a gun was held to my head. Maybe that’s because I don’t look at any individual performance as being indicative of anything, but rather look at them as they fit into the broader mosaic of relativity to show improvement or the lack thereof.
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
Nice point Stats. Let me guess.... 1. You have a high quality coach. 2. Your pitchers keep the ball down and change speeds. 3. You have solid defense. 4. You put the ball in play.

If you do that you are going to win more games (a lot)than you lose in HS.


LOL! There isn’t really any secret to it, is there?
Last edited by Stats4Gnats
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that a pitcher can be successful without the high velocity numbers. Even PG piped in and gave some good examples of low velocity guys that have been successful even up to the AAA level. Shoot, look at Jamie Moyer. He tops out at 83 or 84 and is successful in the MLB.

The problem becomes that the higher up the ladder you want to go, the more the people who make the decisions want guys who are high velocity. Whether that is right or wrong makes no difference. You can be 20-0 with an ERA under 1 in college, but if you are throwing 82, you will not make it to MLB. Is that pitcher successful? Oh yeah. Will he make it to the MLB? Pretty definetely not.

You can be a very successful pitcher without throwing 90. The problem is, you will not make it to the pinnacle. It has nothing to do with whether you can pitch or not. It has everything to do with the mindset of the people who make those decisions. Period.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
…You can be a very successful pitcher without throwing 90. The problem is, you will not make it to the pinnacle. It has nothing to do with whether you can pitch or not. It has everything to do with the mindset of the people who make those decisions. Period.


I’ve never disagreed with that, other than to say, nothing is absolute. But it has nothing at all to do with what a young pitcher(lower than HS), should be concentrating on, or what you do with all the kids past that who pitch but can’t hit those magic numbers. The amateur game isn’t supposed to be all about finding the next ML pitcher. Its supposed to be about opportunity and development for players.
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
No doubt that velocity is very important and creates more opportunities to succeed at every level but there are a few that make it to the big leagues. Although it takes longer with more outstanding results along the way.

The Phillies brought up a pitcher, Tyler Cloyd, late in the year. He had to get to 15-1 with a 2.30 era in the minors in order to be called up. In a year when the Phils pitching was injured and not very good. The reason...he tops out at about 88mph. IMO the Phils didn't trust a guy throwing 85-90 could succeed at the major league level. Never any glowing remarks from Phils brass about him. (every Sunday a local paper reviews the minor league teams). If he threw 94-96 he would have been brought up long before the end of August.

He went 2-2 with the Phils with a 4.91 era in 6 starts. There is no talk of him making the rotation next year.

My point is that slower throwers do make it occasionally but need to prove themselves more and are on a much shorter leash.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by fillsfan:
…My point is that slower throwers do make it occasionally but need to prove themselves more and are on a much shorter leash.


And what does that have to do with young pitchers and what they need to do to experience success at the game?

It really amazes me that no matter how much I agree with what everyone says, because I hold the belief that the path BishopLeftiesDad took with his young son was a good one, I’m some kind of nut.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
I get the feeling, TPM, that no matter what we say there has to be a response. Contrarianism is so annoying. …


Its truly amazing that someone can be described as being contrary to everything when he agrees with everything, but has the temerity to have his/her own thoughts as well. How does it feel to be a sheep, bleating the same kind of thing over and over with no thoughts of your own?
B bball123100+ posts
IMO, the most important is velocity, with some among of decent accuracy in the FB. Son, a freshman, has been throwing FB only for a few years and in the last summer camp, the HS coach taught him a simple CU grip and son has been able to pick it up real fast. The HS coach told the campers that he was only interested in FB and CU, no other junks, and he used son to demo to others how it's being done, inside FB and outside FB. I was so glad to find out that the HS coach had similar philosophy, he was a former D1 player. The only other stuff I probably need to talk to him is pitch count and see where his philosophy is on pitch count.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
How about we just leave it as the answer is BOTH?!?!

Here is the dilema. You want every pitcher to reach his god given maximum velocity. If his genetic maximum is 90+, he will have at least a chance of making it to the highest level - regardless of accuracy. If however, a pitcher's genetic maximum is say 85 - regardless of how hard he works at it - if he has worked HARD on accuracy as well as velocity, he can be a successful pitcher in HS and even in college. If however, he focuses soley on velocity and never on accuracy, 85 with no accuracy will more than likely not get you to college and you may not even be a successful HS pitcher.

Add to that, if you are a 90+ guy and have worked HARD on accuracy, you could be a highly coveted MLB prospect. You can't lose by working on both. I don't think you can ignore either one of them. How's that?

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno

I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.

One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.

Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
quote:
Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno

I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.

One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.

Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.


PG is right on.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
There was a pitcher in the cardinals organization who was a non drafted free agent in 2006. His name is Brandon Dickson. If you look at his player page you will see that he had many awards and organizational ones as well for his stats.

He was quite a story as he was not drafted out of HS or college and had remained in the organization for many years and moved up the ladder as other drafted players were released.

Looks like the perfect pitcher, his frame, 6'5". Good solid stuff, 2 seamer, decent cu and cb, but he lacked the power/movement to put away hitters at the ML level. Last year he watched much younger players move in front of him 9as he remained in AAA), either as a starter or a reliever. Where he had accuracy, they had the 95+ not as accurate FB.

As PG suggests, as you move up, it's harder to fool the better patient hitters. Pitching is one of those things where you can be on point one day and way off the next. You need to have enough weapons (as a starter especially) to be able to get through your required outings or you are gone. Pitching, is hard work and in college and in the pros you are constantly working on your "stuff". You have to in order to keep your job.

BTW, Dickson lost his 40 man spot but has been given permission to pitch in Japan. After 3-4 seasons in AAA there just isn't anywhere to go anymore. Maybe another Vogelsong story, if you do not have the velocity you have to be accurate every time you take the mound.

Can anyone tell me how many ML pitchers are accurate consistantly?

Not that this takes anything away from HS baseball or good HS pitchers, but keep in mind that it is what it is. If a player desires to play beyond HS at the highest level (the ML field), he must develop velocity.

JMO.
Last edited by TPM
bballdad2016bballdad20161,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
quote:
Velocity without accuracy = No Bueno

I understand, but there are a lot of wealthy young men running around that fit this discription. They couldn't throw it where they wanted, but they were givin a lot of money to prove it.

One thing... accuracy is different at every level. The size of the locations needed to get good hitters out changes at every level. The location gets smaller and more exact as the hitters become more advanced. And mistakes get taken advantage of much more frequently. And the higher up it is, the less they swing at bad pitches.

Often you will see pitchers with high strike out numbers and low walk numbers in Rookie or A ball. Then in AA and especially AAA their walks go way up. The more advanced the hitter is, the less he chases the pitches.


I absolutely agree with everything you said. My post was in reference to the OP “Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers”. There are certainly many out there have or had great velocity and were given an opportunity to prove their ability to control the game and command the strike zone, however there are many more out there that have, let’s call it, “above average velocity” for their age that hit everything except the strike zone.
B bball123100+ posts
It's a matter of choice and philosophy in my son's case. When he came up from LL small field to the big field, he wasn't dominant pitcher with his FB anymore. He could drop his arms to create more movements and go with CB and sliders to gain back the advantage, or continue to work on his FB, inside and outside FB pitch. We pick the later one, that is to continue to go with FB with placement and rely on the fielders to help out. In the long run, he will grow taller and stronger and will gain back his FB advantage over the hitters. So, IMO, it is what type of pitch one wants to focus on and work on and that's what he will be good at.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
Brent Strom had an interesting take on this. There was a small study done involving 45 women, the criteria being they could have no athletic background. They split the group up into 3 smaller groups...A) Mechanical training and empahsis on hitting spots B) Some Mechanical Training and they were told to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer C) all they were told was to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer. At the end of the 8 week study Group C had the highest velocity and threw the most strikes. Group B had the second highest velocity and threw as many strikes as Group A. Group A had the lowest velocity and was tied with group B in strikes thrown. He went on to state the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes. However the arm will not figure out how to develop velocity if it is never trained to let it rip.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
Funny thing is he started the clinic by asking the following question. Why are there so many 5'11 Dominicans that throw 95 and so many 6'4 Americans that throw 85? His answer was as follows. In the Dominican they just tell you to pick up the ball and throw it as hard as you can at the target while in American all they worry about is mechanics, hitting spots, and making things look pretty.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Brent Strom had an interesting take on this. There was a small study done involving 45 women, the criteria being they could have no athletic background. They split the group up into 3 smaller groups...A) Mechanical training and empahsis on hitting spots B) Some Mechanical Training and they were told to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer C) all they were told was to throw the ball as hard as they could and hit the targer. At the end of the 8 week study Group C had the highest velocity and threw the most strikes. Group B had the second highest velocity and threw as many strikes as Group A. Group A had the lowest velocity and was tied with group B in strikes thrown. He went on to state the brain is the strongest computer in the world and will figure out how to throw strikes. However the arm will not figure out how to develop velocity if it is never trained to let it rip.


I find that very fascinating because he is the pitching guru for the cardinals.
Now I understand why those guys are told to throw as hard as they can and not worry about location. That can be pretty hard for a young pitcher trying to get noticed by his stats, but in reality, the guys (rhp) that have the velo get the call.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
@ Sultan, LOL, My son is 8 and I do the same thing.

@ Skylark, agree 100%

@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:…I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.


That could be true, but then again it may well not be. It would make a much better case if there were more proof than the anecdotal evidence from individuals, perhaps in the form of how players were trained relative to their performance.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:

@ TPM I somewhat disagree with you about the getting noticed part. I had a kid, who threw 90+, who had control issues throughout HS up until his senior year and he is playing D1 baseball. Now if that same kid only can physically it 82 then, well your right. I firmly believe is you start training them young this will thought process will work.


I am not sure I get your point, please explain.

I have seen young pitchers who have stellar ERA's but their velo for FB is just hitting 90, 91 get called up and get creamed, then you will see a 23 year old hitting 100 not as accurate get hitters out.
The higher you go up in velocity, the less accurate you have to be and you do not have to be 100% accurate to be a ML pitcher.

It's just an observation. I am in total agreement that if you teach the thought process to throw as hard as you can and not worry about accuracy for young pitchers they will figure it out later on.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....

If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.

Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....

If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.

Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.


Got ya, I agree. The lower velo guy has to be more accurate.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm uu must be kidding


Kidding for what TR? You want to explain what it is you are trying to discredit me for.

I read somewhere once if you asked a ML pitcher how many balls landed where he intended them to actually go, he will tell you about 2%. I am talking average player, not the guys getting paid the big bucks to be more accurate.

You might want to ask a ML pitcher you might know if they would agree with that or not.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
TR, is this the same thing like pitchers don't have to throw a bull pen at showcases because they might hurt themselves?

You never explained that one fully, if you do not allow that how do they get ready for a game?

How would they even know what pitches are working for them that day if they haven't practiced them? Do you just tell them to get out there and throw the ball?
Last edited by TPM
B bball123100+ posts
Looking back, it seemed like eldest son and I did it the Dominican way. When he was 7 and 8, he would drag me to the park on weekends and asked me to be the batter and he pitched to me as hard as he could. He beamed me countless of times until I had enough and said one more time we will go home. Still remembered the bruises below and above my knees when I could not skip fast enough. Since then I have retired as a batter, don't like the feeling having a ball screaming toward me with only a bat to defend myself, just play catch.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm what are nu talking about----if anything we warm pitchers up longer than needed



quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
one reason we do not do bull pensessions in our events is because the kids overthrow to impress the guns and this leads to arm injuries


Nov 19, 2012 3:53 PM

Pitching, Resting what's the best route to take?

So which is it?
Last edited by TPM
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Based of the comment you made that it might not work for a kid trying to get noticed this is what I mean.....

If I throw 90+ in HS I can afford to miss up or over the plate and up from time to time. If I am a guy that throws in the low 80's I can not afford to do this.

Both kids are trying to get noticed. 90+ kid can miss from time to time. Low 80's kid that wants to get noticed better hit his spots.


Got ya, I agree. The lower velo guy has to be more accurate.


TPM, I agree with this but I think at the pro level, anyway, velocity doesn't matter much until it's 95-96+. They're all good fastball hitters and can adjust to the timing of a fastball.

I guess what I'm saying is there is a "range" there where the fastball speed is immaterial, perhaps 88-94, and location is far more important. Once things ramp up, to 95-96+ location is less important. (Perhaps 93-94 is plus velocity at the lower levels.)

Since most pro/MLB pitchers, save closers, are not 95-96 on a consistent basis, the art of pitching is still a critical factor at the pro level. 3 solid pitches for starters, 2 for setup and closers. And for closers, velocity is critical.
Last edited by Bum
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, I agree with this but I think at the pro level, anyway, velocity doesn't matter much until it's 95-96+. They're all good fastball hitters and can adjust to the timing of a fastball.


Velocity may not matter until one reaches the big field, as I have noted I have seen more accurate guys stay behind while the higher velo guys move forward, especially for releivers, as we know starters need to be more diverse.
Also why hitters progress and some do not, they get to a point where they can't hit the FB.

It's been a good discussion.

We have gotten away from the OP's original inquires which is what young pithcers should work on, and what goals to work towards that will get them beyond HS, college.
Last edited by TPM
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Movement on the fastball is critical with average velocity pitchers. The more velocity the less movement is required. The less velocity the more movement is required. Straight fastballs are the easiest pitch to hit unless the pitcher has unusual high velocity.

Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.

Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.

So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?

Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.

Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.

Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO

Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.

Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:

Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite.


I cant really remember a time when winning games when son was 12 was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc..

Not really sure what you meant. Could you explain a bit better?
D Doughnutman1,000+ posts
Not to speak for PG, but an example of my own was once in a league game, the coach had my son throw nothing but changeups for three innings. He just wanted him to get used to the feel and grip in a game situation. Work on location and movement. This was a 12U league. It helped his pitching a lot. It was in the teams best interest for him to throw something else. Big Grin

On a side note, I was glad the coach told me in advance. I would have had a heart attack thinking my son was hurt with the reduced velocity.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:I cant really remember a time when winning games when son was 12 was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc…


Are you saying that: “was not also part of the overall process to his development towards getting better, learning the right skills, etc.” when he was in a game that was lost too?

It seems to me that simply playing the game is a part of that development whether the final result was a win or a loss. As far as I know, just before the 1st pitch of a game is thrown, there are very few times when the main goal of either team is to lose the game. Even the worst of teams want to win, even though they may not expect to win. The main issue it seems to me, is how “important” the win might be.

FI, if it’s the 4th game of the WS and one team is down 3 games to 0, its obvious that winning the game is much more important to that team as it is to the other one. Likewise, if it’s the 4th game of the HS season and it isn’t a league game, a “grudge” game, or a long time rivalry, the outcome of the game isn’t as “important” as if it were.

All games have a different value, and they should. A lopsided win against a very weak team isn’t nearly as fulfilling as winning a close game against a very strong team. In fact, a close loss to a very strong team may well be much more fulfilling than that lopsided win.
In the end, each game is really nothing more than another step in the journey, and all games shouldn’t be expected to be given equal weight. Just play the game, because whether or not your team wins, the sky won’t fall.
W wogdoggy500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
The evidence is contained in the 40 MLB rounds and the velocities of the pitchers therein. My son was only drafted in the 31st round and he can throw 91-92 from the left side, with command BTW. So doubt there are more than a handful of righties who throw sub-90 that are ever drafted.

At the pro level, there are a TON of 94-95 guys that get pounded. (These guys have 5-6-7 ERA's but they continue to pitch and get worked with.) Only when you are 97-98 do you get away with mistakes at that level. Bottom line, you have to have minimum acceptable velocity and you still have to pitch.


91 mph righty a senior this year 36th round orioles..he really put on the mph's over the last two years..big kid projects well
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Skylark,

Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.

I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Skylark,

Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.

I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.



I have seen this many, many times in youth baseball. There are numerous "stud" pitchers around in the early years that were so obviously overthrown, or WAY too many curveballs that are no longer playing because of arm issues.

When we went to Cooperstown, there was a kid from a nearby town that threw complete games in back to back to back days. His dad was a coach for the team and let it happen. In fact encouraged it. I don't even think he lasted until HS before his arm was done.

Conversely, my son only threw 10 innings all week with a 0.00 ERA. He was obviously the best pitcher on our team and we would have won much more with him on the mound, but we (myself and the head coach - I was the pitching coach) made the decision to not over throw him. We felt it was much more important that he stay healthy than for us to win at Cooperstown.

It happens all the time. Some people are ignorant of the dangers and some people know, but choose to ignore it. Many times those people tend to think that it will not happen to their kid. Somehow they are different.

I think perceptions are changing, but there are still those out there who will want to win at all costs. There is nothing wrong with wanting to win. It's the "at all costs" that's the problem.
Last edited by bballman
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Skylark,

Anytime we see a young pitcher throw too much... Throw without sufficient recovery time... Throw curve ball after curve ball... Pitch when their arm is hurting... These are just a few things that happen because winning is a goal someone is placing above development.

I would agree that winning can actually help development in some ways. It's just there are times where winning gets out of hand and that what ever it takes to win mentality creates problems.


Okay, I see what you are saying. We took our kid off a team when he was 11 because we thought the coaches pitched him too much. Our kid threw a lot back then, more than pretty much anyone else around. He did however gain the uncanny ability to throw any pitch he wanted for a strike. That came from throwing a lot at an early age under pressure I believe. So, it wasn't all bad.
BumBum1,000+ posts
Bum, Jr. barely even pitched until he was 13 years old. We had a very competitive NABF league in town when he was 11, 12 y.o. I can think of only two kids in that league that went onto college, one in the pros right now. A bunch of them, though, had arm surgery and ruined any chance they had.

I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
Bum, Jr. barely even pitched until he was 13 years old. We had a very competitive NABF league in town when he was 11, 12 y.o. I can think of only two kids in that league that went onto college, one in the pros right now. A bunch of them, though, had arm surgery and ruined any chance they had.

I am so thankful Bum, Jr. was a skinny never-used player at that age.


Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.


Quite the contrary, in fact. Scientific and historical evidence claim the exact opposite.
Last edited by J H
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

Bum, in no way is pitching at an early age related to not pitching in college because of injury. Lets not get in a debate over what age a pitcher should start throwing.


Quite the contrary, in fact. Scientific and historical evidence claim the exact opposite.


I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!
S Skylark100+ posts
I have never heard of a doctor who diagnosed something such as a ucl rupture in a late teenager or college player to say- "yep, lil Johnny tore it seven years ago in a little league game and now his arm is shot".

Pretty much everyone and their dog knows by now that overuse "at any age" is the most harmful thing for a pitchers arm. For some it may be 40 pitches and for others it may be a 140. So many factors go into each individual case.

But merely because you are younger than someone else when you start pitching does in no way mean you will ruin your arm quicker. It would be interesting to find out when the average professional player started pitching when they were younger. I would tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers began pitching at a little league age. I would also tend to bet that the majority of professional pitchers were no older than 11 or 12 when they started pitching.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
It is funny how those that put there sons out their early defend the position of too early not being a contributing factor to possible injury.

My son began at 8 with limited innings and allowed to throw a 2 and 4 seam only with a change up added after 10 and no cb in games until HS. If to do over again I think that we would keep him off the mound until late pre HS and not grade school. It was about winning but never about doing so at a price for injury. Pitching the few games a week they had was shared by all, almost everyone pitched on the team, no one person did more than others. One doesn't have to pitch early to learn what to throw in any count or situation, all that changes as the pitcher matures and eventually plays against better competition.


If you ask most mlb pitchers about it most will not allow their sons to pitch (or more innings) until 13 or 14 (and then maybe just start throwing off speed). Not until you or your son sustains injury does one fully understand the ramifications. How many ML pitchers have pitcher sons in the game? Anyone know?

Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS. The bottom line is that it makes no difference what one does before they are in HS. Take it slow and don't worry about being the number one in your league. That is not going to get you a college scholarship.

After a players first season in proball, they are asked (or sometimes told) what they want to develop or what the organization wants you to use in games. The minor leagues is about development so why shouldn't youth bb be about that as well. In fact that is all it should be about. Young pitchers do not need 4-5 pitches in their arsenal, because you don't even need that when you get in the pros or college. I do believe this is big cause for injury, doing too much too young.
Last edited by TPM
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
…Young pitchers should only pitch minimal in relief until 13 or 14 and take appropriate time off from baseball until HS….


Its pretty amazing how similar that is to what Mike Marshall’s been saying for many years, and how much more accepted its become. Its good to know that common sense still has a foothold in the game, albeit a shaky one. Wink
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!


Roll Eyes

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years." Then I asked him, "do you think it had something to do with me pitching at a young age, or overuse in the recent past?" to which he responded, "both, definitely."

My doctor was some guy named James Andrews.

So, what's your source?
Last edited by J H
BishopLeftiesDadBishopLeftiesDad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Movement on the fastball is critical with average velocity pitchers. The more velocity the less movement is required. The less velocity the more movement is required. Straight fastballs are the easiest pitch to hit unless the pitcher has unusual high velocity.

Some times we can only rely on our own experiences when there isn't a proven answer. This whole velocity thing vs. throwing with accuracy doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think I have ever seen a young kid who hasn't tested his arm strength. Every one has thrown an object as hard or far as they possibly can.

Those with the real good arms know they have it and want to display it. They need to work on accuracy, other areas of pitching, and continue to add velocity. Others without this "natural" ability to throw hard should focus on control and deception while also working at gaining velocity. But it is my belief that any kid with a strong arm is going to show it off at times. If not... That would be like someone capable of jumping 6 foot only jumping 4 foot when people are watching. Or someone capable of running a 6.5 in 60 yards taking it easy and running a 7.5 when people are timing him. Kids enjoy doing things they are good at and showing it to others.

So every young pitcher should work on BOTH accuracy and velocity. Why work on one when both are important? It's simply hitting the target while throwing it hard. Obviously it's easier to hit the target when you throw it slower. That is what BP pitchers do. Basically it boils down to... At what velocity can you throw strikes? Then at what velocity can you throw it to spots?

Movement is a different topic all together. IMO This is the last area to work on as a young pitcher. First of all the short distance to the plate in youth baseball is not enough room for much movement on the fastball. Though higher speed youth fastballs can give the illusion of movement.

Most people would say that Mariano Rivera's "Cutter" is one of the best single pitches of this era. It's not how much movement alone, but combined with the velocity and the lateness it appears to move it becomes very difficult to time and square up. Even the best 2 seam fastballs or cutters would have very little movement on flatter ground and youth pitching distances. Also, hand size and finger length play a part in movement. These things change a lot between 12 year olds and 18 year olds. And just like some pitchers have a natural ability to throw hard, some naturally throw with unexplainable movement. I'm not talking about breaking balls or change ups here.

Bottom line... Many have said it here... Young kids should work on two main things... Velocity AND accuracy. Not one... But both. Movement can come later.IMO

Sometimes working on the right things and doing the right things to develop skills and learn the game correctly are opposite of winning all the games at 12 years old. This is probably most noticeable when it comes to pitching. Pitching to win a 12 year old game has very little to do with developing a pitcher. In many cases it is the complete opposite. I know it seems important at the time, but for some the future will be much more important.

Hopefully this is directed more to the original question. But remember this... Baseball players have proven to be very successful by taking many different paths. Not sure if there really is any proven formula. If there is, I have not been able to figure it out.

PG this is exactly what I was looking for. If you do not mind I will use (steal) this. Plus 1 if I could.
BishopLeftiesDadBishopLeftiesDad10,000+ posts
My son did not start pitching till he was in Middle school. And then he was really the third or fourth pitcher. Never had the velocity of the other guys. He didn't start being a regular in the rotation or relief until he was a sophomore.

When he was younger I always wished he would have pitched more. But as the years moved on, things worked out.

We still see his coach from 6th grade now and again, and he always comments, "I didn't know what I had." Frankly now looking back I am glad he did not.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

I dont believe it. There are way too many other factors that come into play.

Prove it!


Roll Eyes

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years." Then I asked him, "do you think it had something to do with me pitching at a young age, or overuse in the recent past?" to which he responded, "both, definitely."

My doctor was some guy named James Andrews.

So, what's your source?


You said you had scientific evidence. I dont care about opinion no matter who its from. Where is the study- the official scientific evidence in a peer reviewed journal? Find your article and we can debate it from there. As for your injury stemming from throwing at an early age? Since we are just throwing out opinions, I highly doubt you tore your UCL when you were 9 and it just never recovered but got worse through the years. From the papers I have read, it is almost impossible to tear your UCL when you are 9 from pitching. The required velocity just isnt there at that early of an age to cause the type of injury requring surgery. Now supposing your UCL was getting damaged through the years which more than likely wasnt until you were a few more years older than 9, it was more than likely due to "overuse" rather than just starting at an early age. You even stated that your doctor said it was from many years of overuse.

Do you honestly think you would have never ruptured your ucl if you had waited even a few more years? I highly doubt it.
Last edited by Skylark
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.


Probably they were.

Being a LL pitcher doesn't guarantee you still will be pitching in HS or college.

I live in a state where the sun shines almost 365 days a year. That means a lot more games perhaps where you come from. As you are aware many pitchers from here get drafted and drafted high. Most of the pitchers in my sons grad class are not pitching anymore or have had surgery in some form of another that have set them back. And it's not always the arm.

The bottom line from what I see is that most pitchers break down at some point in their career. Hopefully it should be later than sooner. When the pitcher establishes himself as a prospect or reaches the higher levels. My opinion is that parents and players should do everything they can to make sure that injury doesn't occur at crucial times, that would be during the recruiting phase or in college, or in the early stages of milb before the player reaches the big field, this eliminates chance of making it by a huge margin unless the team has put a significant amount in your bank accout. Unfortunetly once you lose your spot it's tough to find your way back (ask Brian Wilson), no matter how good you are. For those that get to the pro level (and you have spoken about how your son desires to play there some day) it's a long climb up the ladder before you get to where you want to go for at least 90% of those that show the ability to get there, and injury doesn't make it any easier.

I am not here to argue but just to give advice on what I beleive should be a safe journey for young pitchers. Lots of good medical stuff going on but the bottom line is often injury ends careers.

I don't disagree that overuse is most likely a very big cause for injury. There is a huge risk involved in being a pitcher, the whole idea is to minimize that risk level to level.

JMO
Last edited by TPM
MidAtlanticDadMidAtlanticDad10,000+ posts
Skylark,

I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.

First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.

However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.

Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)

I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."

http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Skylark,

I went through this with my 2015 when he was 13. Now he's a catcher.

First, I heartily agree with you that there are too many factors involved in elbow and shoulder injuries to point to a single factor, or even multiple known factors. All the studies I've ever read say the same thing. There simply aren't enough comprehensive studies yet.

However, I don't think Josh's doctor told him that he "tore" the ucl at 9, he probably surmised that the ligament was gradually damaged over many years. The ucl is not likely to tear until the growth plate has fused to the bone. I know several young pitchers who have torn that plate loose. One had surgery to screw it back in place, the others let it heal on it's own.

Now as far as most college pitchers starting at a young age, I'll give you an intentionally outrageous analogy. All of the elderly smokers that I know started smoking at a young age, and they're still going strong. :-)

I've compiled some reading material over the years. Let us know if this is what you're looking for.

http://www.hopkinsortho.org/ucl.html
"These stresses create microscopic tears in the ligament, which can add up to one big tear over time. (Figure 2) This gradual stress causes the ligament to stretch and become too long. Once it gets too long, it no longer holds the bones tightly enough during throwing activities."

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/30/4/463.full.pdf
Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Too...eball%20Pitchers.pdf
Prevention of Arm Injury in Youth Baseball Pitchers
"In the age group 9 to 14 years, a high pitch count and also breaking pitches (curveball, slider) were significantly associated with an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. The study was statistically underpowered to show a significant risk of joint pain related to pitching mechanics. An increasing pitch count and cumulative count through the season was linearly associated with an increased risk of joint pain. It was therefore recommended that not only should pitch count be limited but season cumulative pitches as well."

http://www.littleleague.org/As...s/media/UNCStudy.pdf
The Learning Curve: Little League Seeks to Address Concerns, Answer Questions about Curveballs and Overuse

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/33/11/1716.full.pdf
Biomechanics of the Shoulder in Youth Baseball Pitchers

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41203/router.asp
"LLE (Little League Elbow) may be used to describe a spectrum of disorders from a stress reaction to avulsion fractures of the medial epicondyle to osteochondritis dissecans of the capitellum and loose bodies. It occurs most often between 8 to 15 years of age."
"After physeal fusion, the ulnar collateral ligament and ulnar nerve are more likely to be injured."


They are all good articles and I also am aware of overuse injuries. The articles main evidence points to overuse which we all know as being the main factor in injury. There really is no direct link between when a pitcher starts throwing to injury. The only direct link we know of through the various studies such as ASMI's is pitchers who pitch year round who also pitch while fatigued or injured. This isnt an age related problem as to "when" pitchers start throwing but in actuality an "overuse" issue. Other factors such as improper or lack of conditioning, lack of proper rest, poor mechanics, poor diet and exercise also contribute to injury issues. Young pitchers who get proper rest, have good mechanics, not overused, etc, are in my opinion, much healthier when they do get older into high school and beyond. I hear it over and over again with parents of injured players or from older injured players themselves wishing they would have waited a few more years before they started pitching as if their "age" was somehow the main factor. I dont buy into it and I think it is an excuse for the true issues. How many of these injured pitchers pitched at some point through obvious pain? How many of them played more than 8 months out of the year? How many of them pitched in games while fatigued? How many of these injured pitchers were throwing over 80mph leading up to the injuries?

According to the studies, all of those things were the "main" factors leading up to surgery. Maybe they need to stress the real reasons such as I wish I hadnt allowed myself to pitch in that tournament with such severe pain or- I should have told coach to remove me in those games when I was so fatigued and tired. Or- I really shouldnt of played in all those expensive travel leagues year round just to hopefully get noticed.etc, etc, etc.

Back when my son was 11 I saw the writing plain as day and promptly put him on a different team that wasnt going to abuse his arm just for a win. Parents and players at "any age" regardless of how many seasons they have under their belt, need to be aware of the causes, symptoms, etc, that lead to injury. Those articles you posted are good articles. I HAVE read much of ASMI's work and believe most of their research. The trends they are finding are breaking down all of the previous myths we have heard in the past from myriads of parents and coaches. It all comes down to pretty much one word- "overuse". That can happen at any age. Injury has everything to do with overuse and not he age at when one starts throwing.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Of the dozen or so pitchers I personally know who are pitching in college now or who did, pretty much all of them were good pitchers at the little league age level.


My son threw 62 at age 12. So what.


Just sayin that just because a kid starts pitching at 9 doesnt mean it decreases his chances later on as you seem to have implied earlier.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Skylark,
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.

Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.

All are contributing factors to injury.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Sometimes common sense prevails over scientific knowledge.

Not all children at 8,9,10 are biologically created equal. Lots of growth plate injuries out there and reported here the past few years.

So yes age absolutely can be a contributing factor, maybe not the only one but can contribute.

Those past LL where do they attend? Are they future pro prospects?. How many past World championship LL play the game at the pro level?
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
Skylark,
Its put out in front of you and you still argue the point.
All factors can lead to injury age included.

Your son's situation a good example. Young pitcher maybe not biologically prepared for the overuse that coach subjected him to and your ignoramce to allow it at that age.

All are contributing factors to injury.


I agree there are lots of contributing factors and that age does come into play in cases of overuse. My son started pitching at 9. Every year he was always one of the hardest throwing pitchers for his age. Each year as he increases in velocity we watch it all the more closely because injury is most likely to occur the harder they throw. Not very many kids need surgery who throw below 75mph. My son has always had a 4 month break from pitching every year, some years more than that. I am confident to this point that we have done a good job of protecting his arm and giving him plenty of rest opportunities. Some seem to strongly argue that just because one starts pitching earlier they are at higher risk for injury when they get to high school and beyond. Take my son for example- Why should this theory hold true? Its as if people think that at this point his arm is already injured or weakened dramatically. After all, that is the only way the theory would hold true. But, their theory only hods true with kids who are abused and overused year in, year out. So, its not an age thing at all but rather how much they have been overused and beaten up year after year without proper rest and recovery and proper conditioning.
MidAtlanticDadMidAtlanticDad10,000+ posts
Skylark,

If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.

I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.

Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:…But, their theory only hods true with kids who are abused and overused year in, year out. So, its not an age thing at all but rather how much they have been overused and beaten up year after year without proper rest and recovery and proper conditioning.


Here are a couple flaws in your argument.

1) Every kid is different.
2) There is no generally accepted definition of what “overused” is.

The main problem is the lack of empirical evidence. You have your story, I have mine, and millions of others have theirs, but there’s darn little anyone could scientifically sift through to try to come up with answers. The answer is simple and wouldn’t require anyone changing anything they do. When a kid starts to pitch, keep track of the date and the number of pitches. That’s all it would take to create a database that could be studied by anyone who took the time to do it.

I’ve gone on and on about that for many years, but it seems like people won’t do it because they’re afraid of what will show up. As long as there aren’t any facts to interpret, every opinion is as valid as every other one, and that ends up as justification for continuing along the same lines.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The answer is simple and wouldn’t require anyone changing anything they do. When a kid starts to pitch, keep track of the date and the number of pitches. That’s all it would take to create a database that could be studied by anyone who took the time to do it.

I’ve gone on and on about that for many years, but it seems like people won’t do it because they’re afraid of what will show up. As long as there aren’t any facts to interpret, every opinion is as valid as every other one, and that ends up as justification for continuing along the same lines.


Right, Stats. Unwillingness to face the truth must be the reason no one is undertaking to train every coach and every parent of each of the half million or so kids who start playing ball each year to document every pitch they throw, monitor their development as pitchers, track their medical histories, factor in all the other variables that motivate baseball players to stop playing, compel compliance, and standardize the collection effort across every Little League, Pony, Dixie, Babe Ruth, scholastic, travel, legion, and other baseball organization. I mean, your answer is so "simple," it's just amazing nobody hasn't just set aside a few hours one winter afternoon and got this little project off the ground. Yeah, it's gotta be fear of the answers. Otherwise it would be done already. Nothing else makes sense.
B bball123100+ posts
Great discussion here, I could learn from you all of your experiences. Looking back, all those wins and accolades were immaterial in LL, and parents should pay extra attentions to arm care as the little kids would not know the consequences at such a young age. The kids usually try to please the adults and as a result would play hurt when told to, they are too young to speak up. Still remember when son came to me about pain in the elbow when he was young. He then showed me if he throw when this other arm slot, it would not hurt, etc.. I let him pitch another game or two but the problem was still there. So I read as much as I could and sprung into action. No more pitching, had x-ray, PT, and MRI at the end just to make sure everything was ok. Then rest for another 6 months. Each time when son was asked to join a travel team, I hesitated. I was told many times that son should join the best competitive tournaments as much as possible but I still hesitated. Looking back, I am glad that I did hesitated and son did not join any of the travel teams. My take of the debate is that the younger the kid start pitching, the more closely the parents need to pay attention to overuse. Take every pain and ache that the kid is complaining seriously. Don't tell them to rub should sand/mud/dust on the arms and everything will be ok - it doesn't work scientifically.
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
Right, Stats. Unwillingness to face the truth must be the reason no one is undertaking to train every coach and every parent of each of the half million or so kids who start playing ball each year to document every pitch they throw, monitor their development as pitchers, track their medical histories, factor in all the other variables that motivate baseball players to stop playing, compel compliance, and standardize the collection effort across every Little League, Pony, Dixie, Babe Ruth, scholastic, travel, legion, and other baseball organization. I mean, your answer is so "simple," it's just amazing nobody hasn't just set aside a few hours one winter afternoon and got this little project off the ground. Yeah, it's gotta be fear of the answers. Otherwise it would be done already. Nothing else makes sense.


LMAO, Swampboy.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
We have to keep in mind that if there is 12 year old baseball, there will be 12 year olds pitching.

What would be very unusual at that age is if a kid was a pitcher only. Usually the pitcher is one of the better players as well. This in itself can create problems if the leadership isn't aware. Especially when it comes to bringing a new pitcher in from a position without proper warm up. The jury is still out on throwing curveballs, though I personally wouldn't allow them at that age. However, there's no doubt that the harder someone throws the more risk there is of injury. (at any age)

The reward - you have been blessed with the ability to throw gas.

The risk - because of this gift you're more likely to be injured.

Of course, in most cases they can fix injuries these days, But they can't fix a weak arm.

I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.

Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.

I applaud all those coaches out there that understand.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Son threw hard at a young age. He threw harder in middle school and harder in HS and harder in college and much harder now.

I would like to point out that I know just as many soft tossers who have had injuries as harder throwers have. When you pitch there is ALWAYS risks involved.

My opinion as a parent whose son is still in the game at 27 is that you minimize the risks involved and the heck with all the scientific stuff because all bodies are different and all circumstances are different as well.

Once again PG offers great sound advice and good stuff from MidAtlanticDad. I too have a laundry list of things we should have not done, and to do over again it wouldn't be the same. We were ever so careful, no year round pitching, limited innings, no cb before certain age, sliders, good mechanics, loose arm, great college experience with one of the best college pc in the country who didn't abuse, showcases, yet injury occurred. Did we do anything wrong, I don't think so, but beginning at age 8,9 we would change in a heartbeat.

Skylark,

You are aware that 9 year olds are having surgery to repair injuries and many youth players are having to shut down the game due to growth plate injuries. Not saying all of those are pitchers. If they were, could an injury have been avoided if the player didn't begin pitching until maybe 12,13,14? FYI, pitching is a cr ap shoot, no matter what you feel you may have done right, you may not know that until your son is 18, or 25.

Swampboy, thanks for the chuckle. Smile
Last edited by TPM
B bball123100+ posts
quote:
I think learning to pitch at a young age can be a good thing. But learning how to pitch is more important than winning at all cost. My question is... how many 12 year old coaches understand pitching and pitching mechanics. Truth is that it might be more important at that age than older ages. Forming good habits at a young age can be very beneficial. Bad habits at that age are hard to break and can cause damage before any real development takes place.

Also there is nothing wrong with winning as long as it is done the right way and for the right reasons. Often people want to win the 12 year old game so bad, they are willing to risk the 12 year old's future. Actually this happens at older ages too. It even happens in college at times.


I had a story on that. There was a kid, a good friend of my son, that is fairly big and his family(including grandparents) is a big into baseball. At the end of a LL season, I kind of saying to them that he would dominate next year when he grow even bigger. The grandpa said he would be training off season to get better. Next year, the kid came back and was throwing sub-marine. I was horrified but I gently asked where he had learned that. His parents said he was taking lessons from the pro and the pro recommended sub-marine so he could be more effective. It's probably a case of trying to win at all cost, but the sad part was that as the season went on, he became less and less effective. He barely pitched in the all star games. That is probably why some said being a stud at a young age would not translate to being one in HS/college. If done properly, it could translate to one, again depending on the growth rate, genes and working hard.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
Swampboy,

You can believe what you like. I assure you I’ve heard the same claptrap and many others over and over. I said nothing about training coaches, although it would be a good thing. I also said nothing about monitoring their development, although that too would also be a great benefit. And too, I said nothing about tracking medical histories, although that would likely be the most valuable thing of all.

You can make fun of it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a simple thing that would be a great benefit. So why wouldn’t you want to see it happen? Is it too complicated for you or is it too hard? Or perhaps is because you like having your opinion valued the same as someone like Dr. Andrews. After all, as long as there’s no proof he’s right, it makes you an expert too.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
Stats,
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and
b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.

As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.

For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.

I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.

I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.
Last edited by Swampboy
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Skylark,

If your point is that pitching at a young age (8-12?) is not inherently more injurious than at older ages, I don’t know of any medical literature that supports or refutes that opinion. However, the logical conclusion about starting at a young age is that the child will throw more pitches over the span of his pre-adult years, which will typically contribute to overuse. In an ideal situation, where the parent understands and successfully manages all of the risk factors (and I actually know someone currently doing this with his 10 year old), I do believe that a child can begin pitching at a young age with very little risk of injury. However, I’m afraid that scenario is extremely rare, and that isn’t going to work for the masses.

I was unacquainted with competitive baseball when my 2015 started playing t-ball. I have a laundry list of things I would have done differently. Ironically, he probably would have played even more baseball had I known what I was doing. I agree with you about overuse, and I’m convinced that (along with inadequate recovery time) was the primary factor in my son’s elbow issues. Flawed mechanics and conditioning played a part, but I think we could have avoided his injury if he simply threw less. Others might reason that proper training would have corrected the problem, but I just don’t find that to be a realistic option for the sport in general because of the expertise and level of commitment required.

Also, I can’t sight a study but my experience tells me that the damage from overuse varies greatly from child to child (back to your college pitchers). I would go as far as to say that even the LL pitch count limits are too lax for some kids. I would love to see some kind of baseline valgus stress test in the future, with regular follow-up testing. Anything that would give parents some object feedback about their child's arm health.


My personal opinion is that youth age pitchers who train right, are not overused, and throw at a healthy level are more prepared, more conditioned and more injury resistant when they do get older. If anyone knows me, they know I am about te most **** person around when it comes to proper conditioning and protecting and educating pitchers. They would also know that I advocate a lot of throwing and less of actual pitching. My firm belief is that pitchers are most susceptible to incurring injury when pitching in games especially with short rest periods in between outings. I would love to see more coaches adopt shorter pit c h counts for pitchers and substitute in its place more short practice bullpens and off days for general throwing and conditioning drills.

I long for the day when they will have some type of portable MRI machine or something that could cheaply and quickly look at the integrity of muscles, ligaments, bones and tendons right there in the dugout/ clubhouse. You could pretty much eliminate over 90% of pitching injuries at the college and pro level.

Each kid is different, but coaches and often times- parents do push their kids to pitch when the injury factors are greatly multiplied. You see this especially if lil Johnny is talented and plays in multiple leagues, plays year round and also attends lots of showcases and camps. Kids need to be taught from an early age that they themselves are ultimately in control and that they need to have a certain level of knowledge and fear instilled in them to know when the risk factors begin to dramatically multiply and that they need to shut the arm down. There are days now when my son will flat out tell the coach he isnt throwing or even take himself out of games. They completely respect him for that.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
What is meant by proper training as a youth pitcher?

Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?

You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.
Last edited by TPM
BumBum1,000+ posts
A 12 y.o. pitcher with clean mechanics is almost unheard of. I didn't know of any. So how does he throw "hard" without doing damage?

I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.

Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
A 12 y.o. pitcher with clean mechanics is almost unheard of. I didn't know of any. So how does he throw "hard" without doing damage?

I've got video of Bum, Jr. at that age and his mechanics were horrific. Totally opening up and torquing his shoulder. Thank goodness he didn't pitch much then or throw particularly hard.

Therein the problem. Someone's got to pitch in youth ball. If your son is 12, throwing hard, and you're projecting him to throw hard at 22 just know it's probably not going to happen without a very sharp knife.


Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.

There have been myriads of pitchers who threw hard at 12 and were also still pitching at 22 who only needed a knife to cut their steak. You certainly have to show proof that that youth pitchers are actually damaging their arms just because they throw at an early age.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
What is meant by proper training as a youth pitcher?

Do you still advocate after pitching that a young pitcher go home and throw more against the wall?

You seem to have made a 360 degree turn since you came here many years ago. If I recall you also felt it was ok to pitch on consecutive days.


Certainly your kidding? You train youth at their level. Its not much different to speak about teaching them how to hit, how to steal bases, how to pick off runners, etc. Training at the youth level is about teaching them the proper basic mechanics coupled with strength training for their age. Its really a no-brainer.

If you had been paying attention I did mention that son did throw quite a lot when he was younger and that each consecutive year I clamped down more and more about how much he did pitch. The main factor here is that he was never pitching with elbow or shoulder pain. He still throws a lot which is wholly different than " pitching".
Last edited by Skylark
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.


So you're saying that every single pitcher that hurts their arm has bad mechanics, and every single pitcher that doesn't hurt their arm has clean mechanics?

I pitched from age 9 to age 21 without arm pain. Never hurt. Always fresh. Always felt good.

Now, I have a scar.

Does that mean that during all those innings I threw from 9-21 I had perfect mechanics, and when I hurt my arm my mechanics turned bad?

Dr. Andrews disagrees with you. He wants pitch count limitations on youth pitchers and lays out guidelines for days of rest. He understands that it is dangerous for youth pitchers to pitch and he understands that pitching as a youth can cause damage going into the future. You ask for evidence? Watch the Little League World Series every year on ESPN. They have rules about this. Dr. Andrews created them.

So here's how I'm interpreting this thus far: you say there's no evidence that pitching a lot as a youth causes injury over the years. Dr. Andrews says you're wrong. You say that if a kid's arm isn't bothering him when he's pitching then he's fine and he won't get hurt in the future. My scar says you're wrong.

Any other personal beliefs and theories that you have that you'd like to share? Evidence and research isn't necessary, since you've never cited anything to prove your opinions in the past. You just try to buck the trend of the scientific community and then proceed to belittle other posters like myself, Bum and TPM when we argue your point with facts.

I will give you one brownie point, however. I'm impressed that it took you a whole year since you got suspended posting under a different name to restart your outlandish statements. I thought maybe you'd learned and listened throughout that year, and was pleased to see some beneficial contribution to the boards.
Last edited by J H
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
Stats,
You totally missed my point.
I was teasing you for making:
a) a ridiculous assertion: namely, that it would simple to compile a useful database on pitch counts; and


Obviously you don’t know a great deal about data bases. I assure you, I could create such a database in less than 1 minute, and I’m not in the business any longer. The trick isn’t in creating the data base, finding the space to store it, or even in accessing it for updates, and the trick isn’t even getting people to use it. What most people don’t get is, the chances their kid’s pitch counts and dates are already in one database or another, is probably well over 90% right now. The trick is getting everyone to use the same database.

quote:
b) a slander on the motives of everyone who isn't taking your advice to stop the world and fetch you some numbers to play with.


What is so wrong with wanting facts? Who could it possibly hurt other than those who are endangering pitchers?

quote:
As far as all that stuff you say you didn't mention: yeah, that's sort of my point. A database full of pitch count info is useless without all that other stuff you need to identify the independent variables. That's why your simple solution is unworkable. It has nothing to do with unwillingness to face the truth and everything about understanding how hard it would be to act on your advice.


Why would it be useless? If anything, it would put to rest all the individual anecdotal evidence. For all I know, there is no abuse/overuse problem in today’s amateur game, and for all you know the abuse/overuse is widespread and growing. Why wouldn’t you want to know? I’m sure willing to admit I’ve been wrong all these years, so why aren’t you?

quote:
For now, I think the best we can do in the absence of large, controlled longitudinal studies that regress out the other variables is about what Dr. Andrews seems to advocate, which is prudent caution based on the qualified observations and associations he can make, and what PGStaff advocates, which is more attention to development over competition in the early years.


I’ve never said anything different, other than to advocate for those studies.

quote:
I will grant you one important point. You are correct that there is a vocal minority that doesn't want to face the truth. There are people here who protest that because we can't double-blind prove that x number of pitches or curve balls before y years of age will cause a catastrophic injury in this child this weekend we should just ignore all the tentative insights people like Dr. Andrews have carefully drawn, resist pitch limits for youth pitchers, and generally let prepubescent boys throw as many curves as it takes to win a trophy now. Often, the coaches who most stridently protest that we can't know the limit for any one pitcher are also the ones who insist they do know their ace has a "rubber arm" and is immune from the risks. I am not one of those people.


Again, something I’ve never disagreed with.

quote:
I'm in the camp that says pitching carries inherent risks that are generally understood but unknown for individual pitchers; we should apply the general knowledge that is available and manage that risk cautiously for all pitchers and very cautiously for young and immature pitchers. As pitchers get older, they can participate more actively in deciding how to manage their individual risk in the context of their goals.


And there’s where it all falls apart. “Generally understood” means not everyone understands those risks. The problem is, does it mean 95% know or 95% don’t know? That’s why pitch counts gained such a strong foothold. All knowledge means is, having understanding. You’ll notice I never suggested any limits, but rather simply just getting the information so people much smarter than I would be able to draw conclusions based on fact rather than perception.
slottyslotty500+ posts
Interesting article, which I have cited before:

The New York Times, October 28, 2011

Sports Medicine Said to Overuse M.R.I.’s

By GINA KOLATA

Dr. James Andrews, a widely known sports medicine orthopedist in Gulf Breeze, Fla., wanted to test his suspicion that M.R.I.’s, the scans given to almost every injured athlete or casual exerciser, might be a bit misleading. So he scanned the shoulders of 31 perfectly healthy professional baseball pitchers.

The pitchers were not injured and had no pain. But the M.R.I.’s found abnormal shoulder cartilage in 90 percent of them and abnormal rotator cuff tendons in 87 percent. “If you want an excuse to operate on a pitcher’s throwing shoulder, just get an M.R.I.,” Dr. Andrews says.

He and other eminent sports medicine specialists are taking a stand against what they see as the vast overuse of magnetic resonance imaging in their specialty.

M.R.I.’s can be invaluable in certain situations — finding serious problems like tumors or helping distinguish between competing diagnoses that fit a patient’s history and symptoms. They also can make money for doctors who own their own machines. And they can please sports medicine patients, who often expect a scan.

But scans are easily misinterpreted and can result in misdiagnoses leading to unnecessary or even harmful treatments.

For example, said Dr. Bruce Sangeorzan, professor and vice chairman of the department of orthopedics and sports medicine at the University of Washington, if a healthy, uninjured person goes out for a run, a scan afterward will show fluid in the knee bone. It is inconsequential. But in an injured person, fluid can be a sign of a bone that is stressed or even has a crack and is trying to heal.

“An M.R.I. is unlike any other imaging tool we use,” Dr. Sangeorzan said. “It is a very sensitive tool, but it is not very specific. That’s the problem.” And scans almost always find something abnormal, although most abnormalities are of no consequence.

“It is very rare for an M.R.I. to come back with the words ‘normal study,’ “ said Dr. Christopher DiGiovanni, a professor of orthopedics and a sports medicine specialist at Brown University. “I can’t tell you the last time I’ve seen it.”

In sports medicine, where injuries are typically torn muscles or tendons or narrow cracks in bones, specialists like Dr. Andrews and Dr. DiGiovanni say M.R.I.’s often are not needed…


Here's a link to the entire article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10....html?pagewanted=all
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Shoulder MRI's are simply not that accurate because the shoulder is so hard to image. During his junior year of college my son developed a shoulder issue. The orthopedic's diagnosis, based on his symptomatology, was posterior labral fraying. An MRI was done in the doctor's office which the radiologist INTERPRETED as showing fraying/wear and tear in several areas. MRI's in doctors' offices are often low power. I insisted on a second MRI, which was INTERPRETED to show much less than the first one. Son gutted it out and had shoulder scoped during the summer. During surgery the doctor found the labral fraying he expected, plus some minor rotator cuff fraying. The rest of his shoulder was pretty much pristine. All of the rest of the artifacts/irregularities they THOUGHT they had seen on the MRIs proved to be nothing.

The orthopedic, who did a fellowship with Andrews, told us that probably every player on the team, especially the pitchers, had some degree of fraying/wear and tear in their shoulders. He also claimed that Andrews bases his diagnoses of labral problems much more on sympamatology than MRI findings.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
osti

quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
Obviously you don't know a great deal about experimental design. I assure you that any database you constructed in less than a minute would not satisfactorily test a research hypothesis.


Your position is, there’s nothing that can be learned from only having a player ID, a date, and the number of pitches, and I’m telling you that’s a heck of a lot of data that anyone caring to investigate it would find a great deal of information. If nothing else, knowing how many pitches were thrown by every pitcher and how much rest he had would certainly interest a lot of people I know because it would establish once and for all if there really was a lot of overuse/abuse.

As I said before, all those other factors would be wonderful to have, but until its established once and for all that there is a problem, getting people to submit the data would be sketchy at best. Heck, I can think of 15-20 other factors I like to have in addition to the big 3, but that’s wishing for a Bugatti Veyron on a Nissan Versa budget. One step at a time with things like this would give researchers time to think about what other info would be of the most benefit.
B bball123100+ posts
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:


Obviously you don’t know a great deal about data bases.



Obviously you don't know a great deal about experimental design. I assure you that any database you constructed in less than a minute would not satisfactorily test a research hypothesis.


Experimental life science is a very complex and complicated discipline. You can deduce almost anything you want based on false premises and assumptions from a set of data. Is wine good for the health? Regular aspirin intake good for your health? How about regular long distance running? Fish oils good for you (scientists have been flip-flopping on this)? What causes cancer - stress, lack of vitamin C, D, E, B's, or compromised immune system or genes?
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Clean mechanics can be described as pitching without pain.


So you're saying that every single pitcher that hurts their arm has bad mechanics, and every single pitcher that doesn't hurt their arm has clean mechanics?

I pitched from age 9 to age 21 without arm pain. Never hurt. Always fresh. Always felt good.

Now, I have a scar.

Does that mean that during all those innings I threw from 9-21 I had perfect mechanics, and when I hurt my arm my mechanics turned bad?

Dr. Andrews disagrees with you. He wants pitch count limitations on youth pitchers and lays out guidelines for days of rest. He understands that it is dangerous for youth pitchers to pitch and he understands that pitching as a youth can cause damage going into the future. You ask for evidence? Watch the Little League World Series every year on ESPN. They have rules about this. Dr. Andrews created them.

So here's how I'm interpreting this thus far: you say there's no evidence that pitching a lot as a youth causes injury over the years. Dr. Andrews says you're wrong. You say that if a kid's arm isn't bothering him when he's pitching then he's fine and he won't get hurt in the future. My scar says you're wrong.

Any other personal beliefs and theories that you have that you'd like to share? Evidence and research isn't necessary, since you've never cited anything to prove your opinions in the past. You just try to buck the trend of the scientific community and then proceed to belittle other posters like myself, Bum and TPM when we argue your point with facts.

I will give you one brownie point, however. I'm impressed that it took you a whole year since you got suspended posting under a different name to restart your outlandish statements. I thought maybe you'd learned and listened throughout that year, and was pleased to see some beneficial contribution to the boards.


I never said that pitching a lot at the youth level would never lead to injury. You misinterpreted what I was getting at. We all agree that pitching a lot, to the point of overuse leads to injuries. Dr. Andrews also agrees otherwise he wouldn't of got involved with the Little Leauge association to implement pitch counts for youth age pitchers. But note- He never said "not to pitch" at the youth level. He realizes as well as all of us that overuse is the cause of ucl injury needing surgery.

In my opinion the pitchers with bad mechanics are more prone to pain and injury. I don't know your individual case, what your mechanics are like, etc. to give my opinion on the matter.

I have known kids with bad mechanics who have gone out game after game and finish each game with a sore elbow or shoulder. They are more than likely going to get seriously injured if they continue to pitch as their velocity increases. For them its a simple case of "overuse" because of their bad mechanics. Anytime you get abnormal pain such as in your elbow or shoulder that is "overuse".

I don't really believe you that you pitched all those years with absolutely no pain. Your ucl dont just tear on one pitch. So either a freak thing happened to you or you have no pain receptors in your arm.

Besides all that, you have already admitted that your injury was caused by "overuse". Even Dr. Andrews says that is why your ucl tore.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
Shoulder MRI's are simply not that accurate because the shoulder is so hard to image. During his junior year of college my son developed a shoulder issue. The orthopedic's diagnosis, based on his symptomatology, was posterior labral fraying. An MRI was done in the doctor's office which the radiologist INTERPRETED as showing fraying/wear and tear in several areas. MRI's in doctors' offices are often low power. I insisted on a second MRI, which was INTERPRETED to show much less than the first one. Son gutted it out and had shoulder scoped during the summer. During surgery the doctor found the labral fraying he expected, plus some minor rotator cuff fraying. The rest of his shoulder was pretty much pristine. All of the rest of the artifacts/irregularities they THOUGHT they had seen on the MRIs proved to be nothing.

The orthopedic, who did a fellowship with Andrews, told us that probably every player on the team, especially the pitchers, had some degree of fraying/wear and tear in their shoulders. He also claimed that Andrews bases his diagnoses of labral problems much more on sympamatology than MRI findings.



MTH,
As I had mentioned son had an MRI when he signed and they told him it looked like a normal shoulder from a pitcher who had been pitching since 8,9. Showed fraying, wear and tear as well but the structure was solid and showed no tears or anything of concern.

The following spring son developed pain in shoulder area (around the pit area), another mri revealed nothing, had an injection. Mid summer he had arthoscopic procedure to look to see what was going on, nothing significant, had a clean up.
The following season, experienced the same issue, but this time he could barely lift arm, went to see Dave Alchek in NYC. He was diagnosed with cortacoid impingement, very hard to diagnose, this impingement was causing the fraying. Just like Andrews, he based his suspicions on the problem through symtoms not so much an MRI. Doc said years of pitching just wore down the area. Shaved bone.

Skylark,
You await the day that everyone has access to a cheap portable MRI for a "check" up? How does that eliminate injuries? It took 2 years and two fine doctors to finally come to a conclusion.

Dr. Andrews and others of his calibur who have all worked together would NEVER come out publicly and say that a pitcher should not be pitching at 8,9.
but I would bet in private they endorse coach pitch at that age.
Last edited by TPM
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."


Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.

I rest my case.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
quote:

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."


Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.

I rest my case.


I don't think you get it. He is saying there are contributing factors to pitcher injury, pitching too early is just one of many.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
quote:

I started pitching at the age of 9. I have a four-inch scar on my left arm, which was incurred when I was 21. My doctor told me, "this injury was incurred over time. Its a result of overuse that starts at a young age, and eventually, the ligament couldn't withstand the beating over the years."


Overuse that started at a young age. Thats how Dr. Andrew put it eh? So you admit your arm took a beating over the many years of overuse. Thats what I been arguing all along.

I rest my case.


I don't think you get it. He is saying there are contributing factors to pitcher injury, pitching too early is just one of many.


JH admitted it was too many years of overuse.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Overuse just means used to much and that includes when a pitcher begins.
My son began, at 8, if he had started a bit later maybe at 12, that is 4 less years of non use on the mound.

We were very careful with son in his youth years, much more than most because he threw hard, yet IMO he was overused by starting on the mound too early .

Not sure why you keep arguing that point.
Last edited by TPM
B bball123100+ posts
I believe both, TPM and Skylark (and others), are looking from different viewpoints. If a pitcher started at a young age 8,9 in LL or Pony and just play in Spring and observe all the pitch counts and limits, and compare to a pitcher that start pitching at 11,12 and play all year round, local league and travel balls, I believe the later one who started late may not fair any better or worse when both pitchers reach the age of say 17. Both might have thrown the same number of pitches thru their lifetime up of to 17 years' old. The former one over a longer period, the later one over a shorter period.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
Overuse just means used to much and that includes when a pitcher begins.
My son began, at 8, if he had started a bit later maybe at 12, that is 4 less years of non use on the mound.

We were very careful with son in his youth years, much more than most because he threw hard, yet IMO he was overused by starting on the mound too early .

Not sure why you keep arguing that point.


I dont agree with defining overuse as starting young. When my son started pitching at 9 he threw 4-5 innings a week over the coarae of about 3-4 months. That was all he pitched that first year. He didnt didnt start playing travel ball until he was 10 and that was over by July of that year. He had the next 8 months off from pitching in games. There is absolutely no way anyone could call that " overuse".

It wasnt until his next year that he played travel ball and they threw him quite a bit that year and we changed teams the next year.

Overuse is thus not defined by when a pitcher starts throwing but rather how much they throw in a given period of time.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1

Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by bball123:
I believe both, TPM and Skylark (and others), are looking from different viewpoints. If a pitcher started at a young age 8,9 in LL or Pony and just play in Spring and observe all the pitch counts and limits, and compare to a pitcher that start pitching at 11,12 and play all year round, local league and travel balls, I believe the later one who started late may not fair any better or worse when both pitchers reach the age of say 17. Both might have thrown the same number of pitches thru their lifetime up of to 17 years' old. The former one over a longer period, the later one over a shorter period.


I can't speak for anyone else but only my opinion.
I live in FL, where often children play all year long. Others live in states where they get only a certain time of year to play. At 8 it wasn't LL, it was khoury league, and you pitched. My husband took him out of coach pitch because he wanted him to learn how to pitch at a young age.

I am saying I feel it wasn't necessary, and sorry that he didn't wait until later. I feel son threw unnecessarily at a young age.

Not sure why that is so hard a concept to ingest.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1

Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.


Yikes I forgot about the catching! Eek
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1

Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.


JH,
With due respect I congradulate you on your long career and overcoming surgery to throw again. My whole beef on this issue however is that overuse Is overuse and left unchecked may lead to Injury. You cant defIne overuse merely on the age they start..
Last edited by Skylark
J HJ H5,000+ posts
I wholeheartedly agree. But to deny the fact that pitching at a young age has a negative effect on the arm's future health is being ignorant, in my opinion. Of course there are exceptions and of course there are ways to go about things to minimize the risk, but pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.
slottyslotty500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.

No matter the particular age, body, fitness level, strength, flexibility, genetics, training, etc. of a specific individual, pitching a baseball is a unnatural, violent act. As the NY Times article I posted above explains, MRI's of "healthy" (i.e. asymptomatic) arms and shoulders show accumulative abnormalities regardless of whether the arm/shoulder hurts at that moment. As Josh wisely says: "pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless." Whether this violent act leads, five feet or five hundred miles down the road, to a debilitating injury is not always predictable or inevitable. But, as Johnny Mathis once sang, "Chances are..."

The best simple advice any young pitcher can follow is...

-work hard and maintain fitness
-get proper instruction
-listen to your growing body--discomfort/pain is a signal to be heeded
-eat when hungry
-rest when tired
-don't overdo it

And here are my own personal opinions, based on nothing more than a very limited set of experiences:

-there's no need to throw a curve ball before you're 15 years old and there's every reason to develop a change-up as early as possible
-take some time off from baseball every year
-play other sports--at least recreationally--on a regular basis
-have fun
Last edited by slotty
slottyslotty500+ posts
More interesting reading:

Prevention of arm injury in youth baseball pitchers.

Kerut EK, Kerut DG, Fleisig GS, Andrews JR.

J La State Med Soc. 2008 Mar-Apr;160(2):95-8.

Abstract
The advent of youth year-round baseball has come with an increased incidence of pitching related injury and surgery, most notably involving the shoulder and elbow (ulnar collateral ligament). These injuries become evident in high school and college, but begin at the youth level. Several studies have identified baseball pitching risk factors during youth that increase likelihood for injury and surgery in subsequent years. Based on these studies, the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee has published guidelines for pitching that include limits on pitch count and pitches per week and season as well as recommendations for number of rest days between pitching. Also, recommendations include the restriction of breaking balls prior to puberty, the importance of instruction for proper pitching mechanics as early as possible in development, and at least three months of rest after a season…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18681352
Last edited by slotty
B bball123100+ posts
quote:
I can't speak for anyone else but only my opinion.
I live in FL, where often children play all year long. Others live in states where they get only a certain time of year to play. At 8 it wasn't LL, it was khoury league, and you pitched. My husband took him out of coach pitch because he wanted him to learn how to pitch at a young age.

I am saying I feel it wasn't necessary, and sorry that he didn't wait until later. I feel son threw unnecessarily at a young age.

Not sure why that is so hard a concept to ingest.

I live in California and there is a great temptation to play all year round with travel teams. So far son and I are able to resist that and just play in the LL. A lot of the travel teams will advertize that son should join, learn about holding base runners as a pitcher, bigger field, etc.. When son went on to the 60/90 big field last season, he balked twice in a row with runners on 2nd and 3rd, trying to hold the runners. It turned out that there were the only 2 runs he gave up in that game. Reason - this was the first time he was doing it. Consequences - immaterial, so what he lost that game. By end of the season, he had learned to step his hind leg of the rubber first before doing anything. What I am trying to tell parents is that don't jump the gun too much, kids will learn and continue to learn. So what if a kid learn how to hold a runner at 10. Would it make a difference compared to my son learning it at 13? Most likely not. Same with CB, sliders, cutters, etc.. However it is hard to resist the temptation as most parents would like their kids to get better fast and grow up fast and take it too seriously. Son play basketball, volleyball, football, track and field, s****r, swimming and just about any sports he could lay his hands/feet on in middle school. So this prevent us from focusing too narrowly on just baseball at such an early age.
B bball123100+ posts
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.


No matter the particular age, body, fitness level, strength, flexibility, genetics, training, etc. of a specific individual, pitching a baseball is a unnatural, violent act. As the NY Times article I posted above explains, MRI's of "healthy" (i.e. asymptomatic) arms and shoulders show accumulative abnormalities regardless of whether the arm/shoulder hurts at that moment. As Josh wisely says: "pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless." Whether this violent act leads, five feet or five hundred miles down the road, to a debilitating injury is not always predictable or inevitable. But, as Johnny Mathis once sang, "Chances are..."

The best simple advice any young pitcher can follow is...

-work hard and maintain fitness
-get proper instruction
-listen to your growing body--discomfort/pain is a signal to be heeded
-eat when hungry
-rest when tired
-don't overdo it

And here are my own personal opinions, based on nothing more than a very limited set of experiences:

-there's no need to throw a curve ball before you're 15 years old and there's every reason to develop a change-up as early as possible
-take some time off from baseball every year
-play other sports--at least recreationally--on a regular basis
-have fun

Good read.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I and others have been offering basically the same parental advice for years as bball123 has suggested above. For some reason there is always an argument, not even discussion, just arguements from the same.

I am not involved in the game as a professional and neither are most here, but if I was seeking some good advice for my young pitcher, it would be from someone who has coached higher successful profile players or those that are in college or involved in the professional game at some capacity. That could be but not limited to MLB scouts, agents, or someone like Jerry Ford who has probably seen almost every top young pro pitcher who pitched at some point.

Those that have experienced major surgeries TJ or shoulder add good advice as to what they did (or son did), and how they would change things, with keeping in mind that all bodies develop differently and that most pitchers do not reach their peak performance and physical maturity until they are in their 20's. Some of these folks have also had face to face advice and conversations with some of the best doctors in the field of sports medicine. When a high profile doctor tells you as a player that IHO that you began the game too early, what more proof do you need to understand that maybe it wasn't all that important at 8,9 and just maybe even if everything your folks thought they were doing was right now with that scar on your elbow or shoulder and months of rehab and lost time you may have started a bit too early.

I don't give a cr ap about the scientific proof.

I would not accept explanations on what works and what doesn't from those that proclaim themselves to be self appointed professionals. In other words their scope of experience doesn't go past being a parent of a player that has not reached any level after HS, not yet secured a college commitment or scholarship and actually pitched 3-4 years minimum past HS to actually understand that no matter what, injuries will at some point strike. FWIW, all baseball players have some type of injury along the way, it's inevitable. It just is a bit more devastating for pitchers to have to take 10-12 months off for surgery for elbow or shoulder because there is always someone to take your place, no matter how good you were before. The only time you get multiple chances to prove your worth is if you have a team that has invested millions.

Pitchers that are injured are released from college programs as well as the professional ranks, every year. In this day and age, with the competition being as it is, not too many get second chances.

We brought our pitcher up on common sense. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or read major scientific publications to figure it all out. No year round bb, FB and change up development and use before cb or sliders, good mechanics, limited time on mound as a youth (bring it on when it really counts in HS) and a good amount of time away from it as well by participating in other sports (as metnied above), etc.

Son played less BB (and all positions when not pitching) than many that post here, be aware he did sustain injury, it is inevitable. Nothing major, set him back a bit. Ironically he throws HARD yet he has had less issues than RHP collegues/friends of his that throw with less intensity. Pitchers that throw hard are more suseptible to injury because they are used more often as young adults.
Even mlb teams are now taking their high velo guys and placing them in the pen when they move them up to the big leagues first year or maybe two.

Remarkable, son is still in the game.

Parents of young pitchers, please, please, do your homework, let your parental instinct (protecting your child as you would for anything else) guide you to make the right decisions.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
TPM,
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
TPM,
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"


I hear ya. I hear all the time how careful parents are, but every once in a while those stories surface. For example, "my son plays two leagues at 12 but he only pitches on one, the other he catches". Roll Eyes
BumBum1,000+ posts
Pretty funny, Swampboy.

I was out on my customary 6-mile bike ride yesterday and rode past the ballfield. There was a group of what appeared to be 8-year olds warming up. I rode by a dad who was talking on his cell phone.

His exact words as I rode by: "You know he's the best player on this team, right?"

And so the insantity continues.
Last edited by Bum
S Skylark100+ posts
All I am saying is that injury is caused by overuse. Almost every poster here has had a pitcher that at one point or another was overused, otherwise they would all be pain and injury free.

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on. Becauae all pitchers have to start pitching at some point, it all cones down to how much they are overused, how well conditioned they are, genetic structure and mechanics, and smarts.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.


Thanks for letting us know.
Roll Eyes


I am extremely busy nowadays, especially with the added responsibility of strengthening my arm after I had surgery from Dr. Andrews, who told me that starting to pitch at the age of 9 most likely had a direct correlation with the tear of my UCL. But, if anyone does have some spare time, I invite you to pose this question on the ASMI message boards:

"Does the age at which one starts to pitch potentially have a bearing on if they will be injured later on?"

I have a hunch, Skylark, that you may not like the responses you see.

But then again, you probably wouldn't listen to them either. They haven't coached your son and his friends like you have...and that experience is infinitely more accurate.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Last edited by J H
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.


Thanks for letting us know.
Roll Eyes


I am extremely busy nowadays, especially with the added responsibility of strengthening my arm after I had surgery from Dr. Andrews, who told me that starting to pitch at the age of 9 most likely had a direct correlation with the tear of my UCL. But, if anyone does have some spare time, I invite you to pose this question on the ASMI message boards:

"Does the age at which one starts to pitch potentially have a bearing on if they will be injured later on?"

I have a hunch, Skylark, that you may not like the responses you see.

But then again, you probably wouldn't listen to them either. They haven't coached your son and his friends like you have...and that experience is infinitely more accurate.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.


Your injuries were because you overused your arm, pkain and simple. Your doctor even said it was from years of overuse. You can interpret it anyway you like, maybe even blame it on starting too youn but the teuth rwmaibs it was from overuse.

Perhaps you need to ask the real question-

Can a pitcher start pitching in little league and follow all the guidelibes of low pitch counts, proper teaching, at least 4-6 months off and still be around later on to pitch in high school and beyond?

Your dr. Andrews sure puts his sanction on it otherwise he wouldnt of made the recomendations in the first pkace.

I find it interesting that we both know that overuse is what leads to injury yet you want to keep arguing this point about the age when they start as if it plays the large role in injury prevention. Let me ask you this- Do you think my son damaged his arm by pitching for. 4 Montha the first year he pitched and then had the next 8 months off?
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
Skylark,

I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.

In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.

He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.

In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?

Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day. Big Grin
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
Skylark,

I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.

In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.

He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.

In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?

Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day. Big Grin


Swampboy, I certainly cant soeak fir Josh. All I am going off of is what he stated about what his doctor told him- that it was many years of overuse. I dont know what leagues Josh all played in besides his hs and college leagues. I am sure he played more baseball than just the short high school and college seasobs. Ask Josh if you really want to know. I am just stating what he has already said- that his doctor said the injury occurred from many years of overuse. Usually ,overuse" means specifically "pitching too much".
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.


It is impossible for a youth pitcher to both receive proper pitching instruction AND have clean mechanics. Impossible.

You can teach a young pitcher how to pitch, but the fact is no matter how you teach him his young body can't comprehend the fluidness, the kinetic chain, that is required for velocity. They simply don't have that mature physical control over their body yet.

So they cheat.

The young pitcher learns to torque his shoulder in such a way to glean that extra bit of velocity. Learns that slurves and knuckleballs and college sliders get people out. But at what price?

True pitching is a difficult art. Same arm speed, same slot, same follow through. You can't teach that to a young pitcher, no matter how hard you try.

This is why young pitchers accumulate damage. They cheat. Usually to please dads like you.
Last edited by Bum
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