Very Basic Hitting Technique

Squish the bug with your back foot

I do not like this cue at all. Bad baseball cue that has been passed on from generation to generation. Show the pitcher your laces is much better IMO. Some kids even get their foot off the ground.

I don't like "squish the bug", either. If the weight transfer is correct and the hands take the right path, the rest of the body has no choice but to follow. The rotation of the back foot is a consequence of the rest of the body doing the right thing.

I am use to the girls not turning their back foot, so we always said "squish the bug". But I guess if they would have rotated their hips better that would have also helped fix that problem. So that would be one thing to change is to make sure that the hips rotate, thus making your back foot to turn.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Yosten:
I am use to the girls not turning their back foot, so we always said "squish the bug". But I guess if they would have rotated their hips better that would have also helped fix that problem. So that would be one thing to change is to make sure that the hips rotate, thus making your back foot to turn.

There is no way someone could teach you how to Coach hitting a baseball on a website. There is too many factors involved. You should find a good hitting instructor in your area and take several lessons. Make sure you let the instructor know why you are taking the lessons and who you will be teaching. If you are planning on starting this Fall, put an ad on here, your local paper, on eteamz, or some other medium and get a true "baseball" hitting Coach, at least until you learn some real basics. Hitting a baseball and hitting a softball are truly two different skill sets. Softball is a sport where people that can no longer, or never could hit a baseball go to keep playing ball. IMO

quote:

Softball is a sport where people that can no longer, or never could hit a baseball go to keep playing ball. IMO

Quick, get on the flame-proof suits.

What's wrong with young girls playing softball?
The guy used to coach softball, he wants to work in the baseball arena now... big deal. No, you can't learn hitting from a website, but you can gain information that will factor into how you want to teach hitting.
Coach Yosten; welcome to the baseball crowd and good luck.
(count me in the non-squish the bug camp too)

I obviously know that you can not learn hitting from a message board. I was just asking to see if the techniques that we used to teach the girls hitting were anywhere similar to the ways of teaching boys hitting. I know the pitchers delivery is different and that is a factor, but as far as the basic FORM of hitting goes, if it is the same or different. I have been already watching hitting videos and talking to hitting instructors about the approach and stance.

Coach Y, I have Mike Epstein's DVD "Do We Really Teach What We See" and believe that you will find it immensely useful. In the first half of it Mike talks about many aspects of hitting, and the things that nearly all good hitters do. One of the many things he discusses is the 'squishing the bug' thing, and as has already been mentioned it's not the foot rotation that drives the hips, but rather the hips that drive the foot rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Yosten:
I obviously know that you can not learn hitting from a message board. I was just asking to see if the techniques that we used to teach the girls hitting were anywhere similar to the ways of teaching boys hitting. I know the pitchers delivery is different and that is a factor, but as far as the basic FORM of hitting goes, if it is the same or different. I have been already watching hitting videos and talking to hitting instructors about the approach and stance.

I appologize for jumping to conclusions. I didn't realize you were Coaching fast pitch Softball before. In todays fast-pitch game, many of the girls are using the same basic mechanics as baseball hitters. They are no longer running and hitting at the same time. You are on the right track by doing the things you are doing as far as learning goes. I too have the Epstein video as Stylemismatch mentions in his response and found it very helpful. I also have John Cohen's dvd on hitting that you can get on U of K's website and have found that it has some of the best hitting drills I have ever seen. As far as squish the bug is concerned, it will work in place of the kids not using their hips or core at all and may even be the easiest way to get the kids not to use all arms and to be in the correct position at contact. Having said that though, it is not the "best" way to teach hitting, but depending on the age, starting ability, and time you have to spend with each hitter may be your best option. I would say that if time is a problem, encourage the better players to go to a trained hitting instructor when possible, at least until you are comfortable with the teaching yourself and let the kids and Parents know that you are in a learning process. Also, at this point, if a kid is having success at what he is doing, but it doesn't fit with what you are learning, leave them alone! As always, this is JMO! Good luck to you!

micmesier you have a PM.

How do you like John Cohen's DVD? I saw some clips on FOX sports from his hitting DVD.

Since we have supporters of different hitting philosophies on this site, I'd like to say that my girl plays fastpitch. I coach my girl with exactly the say technique as I coached the baseball team. In doing so, I've found Steve Englishbey's DVDs very useful. Also, his website both public and private are very useful and contain a "library" of videos and demonstrations. Some even of my kid.

Buying DVDs, having the desire to learn, being open to looking at hitting from different perspectives is all necessary for a coach to first research and then finally, discover a methodology that will enable them to have success. Coach Y, if you're looking for a very simple hitting philosophy and someone tells you that they have the solution, be careful. You've probably purchased a cat in a sack. What you now have to do is determine just what kind of coach you want to be. If you want to get after it and really learn your subject matter, you have the resorces available. However, if you want to give lip service to working hard, you'll find all too many people that will take your money and run. JMHO!

If you have any questions you'd like to discuss on the private message portion of this site, I've sent you a pm. Just reply to it.

Darrell

Coach B25,

That is very useful info. I have been down that road before in buying DVD's and buying into different hitting and throwing programs. I have found success thus far for my son and we are keeping at it. You can learn from everyone in my opinion and keeping an open mind is key. You can learn alot from all the guru's and don't fall into the trap of buying into one program.

Good luck!

quote:

You can learn from everyone in my opinion and keeping an open mind is key. You can learn alot from all the guru's and don't fall into the trap of buying into one program.

Ditto! Open mind, listen, emulate the great MLB hitters and continue to be a student of the game as there is so much to learn.

All excellent advise in this thread.

If MLB hitters dont' do it, then, don't do it......They are the best hitters in the world.....

Hitting a moving ball with a bat is the same no matter who is pitching the ball....

Hitting a grapefruit with a tree branch would be the same, also....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
If MLB hitters dont' do it, then, don't do it......They are the best hitters in the world.....

Hitting a moving ball with a bat is the same no matter who is pitching the ball....

Hitting a grapefruit with a tree branch would be the same, also....

So...clone hitters, huh? Which MLB hitters should he watch and teach from??? Today's hitters? Which ones? Ichiro??? Bonds??? Guerrero??? Counsel??? Hitters from the early 1900s??? Which ones? Ty Cobb??? Rogers Hornsby??? Mel Ott???

What you dont know about class or baseball could fill a book.... A really long book.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
What you dont know about class or baseball could fill a book.... A really long book.

Coming from the one who started with the personal attacks in this conversation, that is a really funny comment. As far as what I know about baseball, I'm quite cetain I've forgotten more about baseball than you've ever known, ever will know, or have the mental capacity to learn. You need to go to a website where bashing each other is the goal and get off of one where people are trying to help each other learn.

Micmiester

quote:

Hank Aaron had over 12,000 at bats and that is the only reason he is the all time home run leader. I think if he played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style.

Micshiester

quote:

As far as what I know about baseball, I'm quite cetain I've forgotten more about baseball than you've ever known, ever will know, or have the mental capacity to learn.

Im quite certain you have forgotten alot of baseball to Mic, I just disagree with what its in relation to.

micliceter

quote:

I think he was a great player and I have NEVER said he wasn't!

micliceter

quote:

I think if he (HANK AARON) played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style.

Great players hit better then 200.

YOU "Might want to check Hank's stats." I know what his stats are and what he did against the best pitchers in the game, including some of the best pitchers of all time.

quote:

Dude! Get a dictionary or spell checker!

I dont need a spell checker when I got you, and thats the extent of your value. Thanks for the lesson in typo's.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
micliceter

quote:

I think he was a great player and I have NEVER said he wasn't!

micliceter

quote:

I think if he (HANK AARON) played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style.

Great players hit better then 200.

YOU "Might want to check Hank's stats." I know what his stats are and what he did against the best pitchers in the game, including some of the best pitchers of all time.

quote:

Dude! Get a dictionary or spell checker!

I dont need a spell checker when I got you, and thats the extent of your value. Thanks for the lesson in typo's.

7 of his last 11 seasons in the 200s. Was great before that, just a little above average after. Career as a whole...outstanding.

Typos??? Give me a break!

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7 of his last 11 seasons in the 200s.

And?...Does this mean anything? He hit .305 lifetime...So only 4 of his last 11 seasons he hit over 300!!! Are you OK?

quote:

Typos??? Give me a break!

Let me pad your ego (I know its messed up after Chameleon pimp slapped you)....spelling errors...and some typos. What difference does it make anyway. This is not a spelling bee thread.

eye no eye downt spel wel....But I feel that flaw is better then thinking Hank Aaron would have trouble hitting .200 today based on his style.

To think Aaron would need to change his hitting technique that set the homerun record?????

We sure wouldn't want to hit like that, would we????

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
To think Aaron would need to change his hitting technique that set the homerun record?????

We sure wouldn't want to hit like that, would we????

A lot of guys could break the record if they had over 12,000 at bats. If you two don't see that.....WOW!

"(I know its messed up after Chameleon pimp slapped you)"



I must have missed this. As far as Aaron, I said he would be a .200 hitter instead of a .300 hitter. I did not mean .200 exactly, I meant in the .200s.

Micmiester

quote:

As far as Aaron, I said he would be a .200 hitter instead of a .300 hitter. I did not mean .200 exactly, I meant in the .200s.

Im sure you did....

quote:

I think if he played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style.

Please enlighten us as to why Hank Aaron would have had to "change his style" to hit "at best" .200 today.

Thank you for your comments.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Micmiester

quote:

As far as Aaron, I said he would be a .200 hitter instead of a .300 hitter. I did not mean .200 exactly, I meant in the .200s.

Im sure you did....

quote:

I think if he played today he would be at best a .200 hitter unless he changed his style.

Please enlighten us as to why Hank Aaron would have had to "change his style" to hit "at best" .200 today.

Thank you for your comments.

Like I said, I meant in the .200s at best. I stated why I thought that, but then again, I'm sure you have that copied and ready to paste somewhere, so you do it!

OK boyz, let's stay on topic here!

As we can all tell there's no such animal as a "Very Basic Hitting Technique." I'm not one of those that is going to try to change anyone else's minds. I'm very comfortable with what my child does and my HS players have had a lot of success doing the same stuff. I'd make some recommendations:

• Beware of those that want to argue their video analysis. I can show one noted posters who posted for 2 years that Bonds was the poster boy for PCR and now he argues he is the poster boy for another philosophy. One of these days, I intend to get those various posts together for a type of "reference library."
• You can only coach what you know. So, read or study what you can find and then re read it. I'd recommend that you think long and hard on those concepts supported not only by video but also by science. In other words, top researchers have tremendous volumes written about the human body, the kenetic chain, the ability of the eyes to transmit information to those muscles etc. When you combine all of this, pick the one you agree with most.
• People want to make some of these guys the bad guys and at times, it has included me. However, let me give you a piece of advice my favorite teacher once told me. When someone tells you something you disagree with, understand why you disagree and then you'll beleive in what you think you belive in with more conviction.
• There are some threads that have been dormant for a while in the hitting forum. Go check them out, they have some great info. Note the ones that have many responses but lack the personal attacks. Those often are the best.
• Finally, some posters on this site and I will never agree. However, some and one in particular have agreed to share ideas without taking it personal. I really enjoy that. I would wish that for everyone.

For me, hitting is a learning process and so, I'm still learning. I hope I never stop.

Take care,

Darrell

When the "kids" get all confused with all the myriad techniques, where there hands are supposed to be at what time, what their hips are to do, etc. Then Very Basic Hitting Technique (at the game of course) is "See the ball - HIT the ball" since that is what we want them to do.
Once at a scrimage (was suppose to be a game, but the other team didn't get enough players) the coach asked me to coach 3rd base. The players were waiting on special coded signals. We didn't need any of that. I swung my arm somewhat wildly toward the outfield. The kids looked at me like I was crazy and "what is that signal?". I yelled out, "Hit the ball in the outfield!". I never saw our team hit so many balls into the outfield as then. One after another. Now, this was a no count scrimmage against inferior pitching but it does make a point about the mind and the effect it has on what we do.
At game time and depending on the situation - See the ball - HIT the ball will work.
Save all the other instruction for instructional times. Keep it simple at game time.

Tim Robertson

You actually signed that post?

Fetch, Johnny.....fetch.

Yes, why wouldn't I? I've seen it work too many times.
Even MLB players get into "everybody hits" at times.
Sorry I am too simple for you.
The question was for "Very basic hitting technique".
If you like to give your son 5 -12 things to do while he's hitting and it works then that's great! Usually it's the ladies that handle multi-tasking better.

Tim Robertson

I have nothing to hide like some people.

Chameleon(teacherman)- Ankiel got two more hits yesterday including a double and homer. He's still hitting over .300. He sure is having problems. I got some clips from a friend that showed you trying to demonstrate a good swing. What an absolute joke. Yet you consistently come on here and rip other people and think there is only one way to hit a baseball properly? You're absolutely delusional!

Keep yapping.

How many K's does he have? I believe I heard 11 in 8 games.

His second time through the league will be next year.

I'm still waiting for you to explain the difference between the swing of Howard and Ankiel.

ROFLMMFAO

He has Dave Kingman written all over him.

Great throwing arm though.

And I'm pointing.

Chameleon? Does that refer to your constantly changing names or constantly changing allegiances? While Ankiel may not have a "perfect" swing, he seems to get it on the ball quite often. What exactly is the basis for your expertise?

Joker- You keep yapping and I will put the clips of you in action as well as demonstrating the swing. That might have to go in another heading of Ladies Only. Wait, that swing wouldn't be fair to the ladies.

You live on here. It took you 5 minutes to respond. I understand why you are on here. Because nobody would pay good money to be on your site! You really should do something else besides live on websites. Pretty pathetic.

Post any clip you like ncball.

You aren't equipped to win a discussion on hitting.

We're waiting.

Come with it.

-EDITED-.

Wow a guy comes on here asking for help and it ends up trash talking between longtime members.

This will be the second time I'm going to ask that we stay on topic. Of course we all know where this is headed. Why?

I too was watching video on another website's archives while looking for a video I brought up in another thread. Amazing. Of course I have this site's archieves as well to access. One video I watched was of Barry Bonds with a break down of exactly how efficient it was demonstrating a certain hitting philosophy. Did I already say Amazing? Just as amazing was the person who edited that video!!!


The hitting process can be as complex or as simple as one desires. The use of cues to demonstrate a point ARE NOT UNIVERSALY UNDERSTOOD and so, whenever one uses a cue, it would be very beneficial if they could also demonstrate what they mean. Drills are much the same. Not all drills are effective for everyone. More important to being successful in the hitting process than learning technique is to learn how the various portions of the kenetic chain work together. There are no shoulders without hips and there is no flow without a base. The relationship or ratio of usuage is then the key. However, that's another subject.

BACK ON TOPIC BOYS! (I wish I had a gamelin of a clock! It's only a matter of time. )

Here is the brutal reality:

Ankiel is a professional baseball player hitting home runs in the Major Leagues.

Chameleon is an anonymous internet poster - babbling pseudo and ever-changing "baseball knowledge" - and making chicken wings and potato skins.

That - is the reality. LOL

itsinthegame- Richard is not so anonymous. He is a legend in his own mind. He says "we are waiting" for my response. The fact is that "he" is waiting. The only reason I replied was because I couldn't take this guy ripping people and players anymore for his self edification.

I apologize to those who I offended for getting side-tracked by this cyber-legend. I will not respond to his replies anymore as they take up time that I could be using to actually be productive. He should follow suit but he won't. That's too bad.

Whaaaa.

Facts got in your way didn't they.

Bow out now....quick. While it looks PC.

Be sure the thank the moderator.

Don't forget that you also can't analyze the Howard/Ankiel clip.

NCball,

I am an experienced "Chameleon" watcher and frequent target of this legendary cyber guru. LOL - Many many years.

It took me awhile - but I learned to just have fun with it.

As with the ids he uses - he cant stick with any one thing for too long. LOL

What was up is now down - what was in is now out - what was round is now square.

Basically - just a cyber guy getting his mojo on and hacking people in the cyber world.

And clueless as to the actual game itself - and what it takes to play it successfully. IMO.

quote:

Whaaaa

What are you twelve? Nah, twelve year olds act better.

For those of you who are twelve please forgive me.... for I did not intend to demean you in any way by associating you with The Chameleon.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:


Be sure the thank the moderator.

Don't forget that you also can't analyze the Howard/Ankiel clip.

Thank the Moderator? A simple request and then a more stern request are attempts to keep this a hitting discussion board and not a flaming board. Guess I'm doing my job. Thanks!

FYI, and since you want to always mentioned to me that I'm missing out, a favor back to you. You're missing some very interesting threads on another site which would include "Understanding Rotation in 3D," some video of some new young hitters for evaluation, a very good thread called "Starting Point," some great readings comparing recent research of the phisology of the body in relation to athletic performance and then that compared to Dixon et.al, A knockout thread on the swing and "Cause and Effect" which has to have at least 5 studies cited and compared and tremendous contributions from many long time posters (Not me since I'm not smart enough to join in in that one.),...

I went back and read your entire posting archive the other night. There was some good stuff there. Perhaps that is why the membership is now 900 and rising. Take care!

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:


Be sure the thank the moderator.

Don't forget that you also can't analyze the Howard/Ankiel clip.

Thank the Moderator? A simple request and then a more stern request are attempts to keep this a hitting discussion board and not a flaming board. Guess I'm doing my job. Thanks!

FYI, and since you want to always mentioned to me that I'm missing out, a favor back to you. You're missing some very interesting threads on another site which would include "Understanding Rotation in 3D," some video of some new young hitters for evaluation, a very good thread called "Starting Point," some great readings comparing recent research of the phisology of the body in relation to athletic performance and then that compared to Dixon et.al, A knockout thread on the swing and "Cause and Effect" which has to have at least 5 studies cited and compared and tremendous contributions from many long time posters (Not me since I'm not smart enough to join in in that one.),...

I went back and read your entire posting archive the other night. There was some good stuff there. Perhaps that is why the membership is now 900 and rising. Take care!

Coach,

Don't leave us hanging! What's the other site?

PM sent!

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
PM sent!

Thanks, Coach!

I remember now why I quit posting. By the way, someone go compare the fields Aaron hit in with the newer parks.

How's it going Bluedog?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by baseballpapa:
By the way, someone go compare the fields Aaron hit in with the newer parks.



Same era Ted Williams was in, wasn't it?

It is my point to those who said he would bat 200 in today's game. It was estimated he would be over 850 homeruns in today's smaller parks.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
It is my point to those who said he would bat 200 in today's game. It was estimated he would be over 850 homeruns in today's smaller parks.

Papa,

I was not trying to ridicule Aaron when I said what I said. His mechanics worked pretty well for him in his day. I just believe he would struggle with those mechanics in this era. As I said in earlier posts, I think he was a great all around ballplayer and probably would have adjusted his swing. Who knows? I also stated that I meant in the .200s not .300s. He was a lifetime .305 hitter, but only hit .285 in his last 12 seasons, so I believe he was already struggling in that time, either way .305 to .285 isn't that much of a stretch. Who knows for sure? It was just my opinion. Even if he would be able to make it work, I wouldn't think those mechanics would be what you'd teach to a young hitter and that was my original point.

micmeister- I believe that great players from any era would be great players. The best ones adapt to what they need to do to be successful. My thought is that Aaron would change his mechanics to something much closer to the best guys now. Do you know that he started hitting cross-handed?

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
micmeister- I believe that great players from any era would be great players. The best ones adapt to what they need to do to be successful. My thought is that Aaron would change his mechanics to something much closer to the best guys now. Do you know that he started hitting cross-handed?

I agree! They did what they had to do to be in the elite class of their time as do players of today. It is the mind set and work ethic that separates the professional from all the rest in any sport, not their God given talents, IMO. Yes, I knew that he started cross-handed and he actually did very well with it.

quote:

How's it going Bluedog?

Doing well, Papa.....

Keep that son on the straight and narrow....

Papa, alot can be learned from Aaron's swing.....

Glad to see you understand it.....

Trust me.

There is not one post that I care to read on any site that doesn't believe in handle torque at "go".

Neither should you.

And, since we're local, I could prove it to you in 5 minutes or less.

But only if you are truly a truth seeker.

Which is in question.

I'll do the driving.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlueDog:
Papa, alot can be learned from Aaron's swing.....



Yep, and if he would have eliminated the drastic back to front head slide, he probably would have ended up a .340 hitter instead of a .305 hitter. Talk about natural athletic ability. He sure had it! Probably could have been a pro at just about any sport he would have put his mind to doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Trust me.

There is not one post that I care to read on any site that doesn't believe in handle torque at "go".

Neither should you.

And, since we're local, I could prove it to you in 5 minutes or less.

But only if you are truly a truth seeker.

Which is in question.

I'll do the driving.

Richard, I appreciate the offer. However, Truth? The truth is what we all perceive it to be. BTW, I've never stated that I was looking for anything. In fact, I’ve stated that while I won’t try to force my beliefs on anyone else, I’m very happy and have had a lot of success doing what we are presently doing. In fact, not only my players but our feeder program (3 seperate teams that hit with me all last winter) and my daughter’s softball team all have used this philosophy with great success. Our feeder program and my daughter’s softball team all won 35+ games this year doing our hitting program. My high school team has 200+ wins in 9 years since I came to my present school. What we're doing is working well. I also believe that I’ve been consistent in limiting my discussions on what I believe in concerning hitting since I care to do that discussion on a site where like people participate and can enlighten me as to how to better understand that philosophy. Since you are a former member of that site, you know that such discussions are supposed to be "in house and can reference a quote to such I believe you made. A site to which you once were a major contributor citing the following contributions:
.

“…wouldn't call this the typical arm swinger. Do I see a "former" arm swinger that has been enlightened? And, maybe one who is on the right track but not efficient yet?” Quoted August 20, 2006 along with a list of drills you suggested to enable this hitter to stay connected better to stop disconnections and the use of the hands.

“And, from my experience, the above would have taken at least 2 years off *******'s learning curve.” Quoted August 20, 2006 in another thread in the context of how much better PCR has made your son and how much faster he could have improved had he learned it sooner.

“The overriding premise, IMHO, is you need to swing from your center and the bat must be perpendicular to the spine. That is the underlying movement necessary to swing. That is the ultimate goal........to be able to do that as efficiently as possible so as to be able to "get the **** bat around" on time, and then repeat it.” Quoted August 19, 2006 prior to an extensive list on what a person needs to do to be more efficient in the swing. Again, all related to you being enamored by PCR.

“That bat is being directed by the body, not the hands. The hand is swiveling as a result, not a cause.” So you stated in a thread on August 18, 2006.

(Quotes used w/permission from a private web-site archive. Note, I could also link some demonstrations you put up.)

Truth is what you want to make it. Much the same with how you, or anyone including myself, interpret video. Once you believed all that I do. You say you've found something better. I hope that you use that to help your son. I truly do. As per me and mine, we're doing just fine with what we're doing.

quote:

However, Truth? The truth is what we all perceive it to be

No real reason to read any futher. This summarizes PCR and PCRW. The truth is what they tell you.....and you better listen....regardless of the evidence.

lol

But, I will read. I do enjoy comedy.

As for all the quotes, maybe you missed it.

I was wrong. I've said I was wrong.

Now, when will N y m a n, Greg Stock, Englishbey, Fungo, MarkH, ssarge, yourself, etc etc etc (sorry if I forgot you who would love to be included)

The video proves it. The PCR and PCRW bat path is not mlb quality.

Some and their posses just can't seem to come to grips with it.

Fess up. I did immediately.

So, we're not getting together?

I detect apprehension. You will be put in a precarious position. You will have to chose between fact and fiction.

Will you demonstrate a search for the truth?

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
As for all the quotes, maybe you missed it.

I was wrong. I've said I was wrong.

Now, when will N y m a n, Greg Stock, Englishbey, Fungo, MarkH, ssarge, yourself, etc etc etc (sorry if I forgot you who would love to be included)

The video proves it. The PCR and PCRW bat path is not mlb quality.

Some and their posses just can't seem to come to grips with it.

Fess up. I did immediately.

So, we're not getting together?

I detect apprehension. You will be put in a precarious position. You will have to chose between fact and fiction.

Will you demonstrate a search for the truth?

Chameleon,

I believe you are right about MLB hitters and handle torque. My question is, who taught them??? I have had dealings with a couple of MLB hitting coaches in the past and my son even took lessons from one as part of a deal to play on a travel team, but none of them ever taught handle torque. Why is that? In fact, the one instructor that taught my son didn't teach anything that made much sense to me or my son other than situational hitting. He was a hands teacher only, nothing about core, legs, hips, except to bring your feet to shoulder width apart (something I strongly disagree with). I have always believed in flat hands at contact and using the elbow tuck to reach that position. I have practiced using my top hand to pull the barrel rearward as my hands go forward and it is quicker. I'm not sure you HAVE to do it to hit MLB pitching as Ankeil has somewhat shown, but I can see where it would improve your chances of being consistent.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

However, Truth? The truth is what we all perceive it to be

No real reason to read any futher. This summarizes PCR and PCRW. The truth is what they tell you.....and you better listen....regardless of the evidence.

lol

But, I will read. I do enjoy comedy.

NO you fail to percieve the truth. What we're doing has worked VERY SUCCESSFULLY! You seem to miss that point time and time again. Why would I change something that is PROVEN? You had a bad experience? I can think of several reasons why. You fail to realize that there is a reason people are NOT FLOCKING to your website nor are they buying into your philosophy. Yet, you continue to say you know more. EXACTLY THE SAME AS WHEN YOU RIDICULED ALL OF THOSE THAT DIDN'T AGREE WITH YOU ONE YEAR AGO WHEN THOSE QUOTES YOU MADE WERE PRESENTED BY YOU. Now you suggest that I'm the one that is in error. I'll stick with time tested and not any other. BTW, these kids that I've coached that have had this success, have continued that success not only at the high school level but higher. Good enough for me. (That'd be like being married to Eva Longoria and you telling me that if I left her, you think I could get a date with Jessica Simpson. I'll stick with Eva.)

As per me being "wrong," I don't go on this website spouting my beliefs. I keep most of that discussion for Steve's site. I believe that you can't find one poster, other than you, that I've ever argued with on this site about hitting at all. Perhaps Bluedog but he and I have had several great discussions away from public forums.

IF ANYONE OUT THERE HAS EVER ENGAGED IN AN ARGUMENT WITH ME OVER HITTING, PLEASE STATE SO NOW.

quote:

NO you fail to percieve the truth

There you have it.

That's the best proof they can offer.

It's the same as "Steve said so".

Better dig into that video.

P.S.1 Beware when a high school coach posts about what he teaches, how he teaches and how his "system" works regarding hitting. They have virtually 0 time to teach the skills of the sport. They are pretty decent at making out lineup cards, changing pitchers and deciding when to bunt though.

P.S.2 i before e except after c.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
As for all the quotes, maybe you missed it.

I was wrong. I've said I was wrong.

Now, when will N y m a n, Greg Stock, Englishbey, Fungo, MarkH, ssarge, yourself, etc etc etc (sorry if I forgot you who would love to be included)

The video proves it. The PCR and PCRW bat path is not mlb quality.

Some and their posses just can't seem to come to grips with it.

Fess up. I did immediately.

So, we're not getting together?

I detect apprehension. You will be put in a precarious position. You will have to chose between fact and fiction.

Will you demonstrate a search for the truth?

Chameleon,

I believe you are right about MLB hitters and handle torque. My question is, who taught them??? I have had dealings with a couple of MLB hitting coaches in the past and my son even took lessons from one as part of a deal to play on a travel team, but none of them ever taught handle torque. Why is that? In fact, the one instructor that taught my son didn't teach anything that made much sense to me or my son other than situational hitting. He was a hands teacher only, nothing about core, legs, hips, except to bring your feet to shoulder width apart (something I strongly disagree with). I have always believed in flat hands at contact and using the elbow tuck to reach that position. I have practiced using my top hand to pull the barrel rearward as my hands go forward and it is quicker. I'm not sure you HAVE to do it to hit MLB pitching as Ankeil has somewhat shown, but I can see where it would improve your chances of being consistent.

Is it possible that handle torque and bat float are just naturall progressions from rotational hitting and the best will get there?


You can watch Jim Edmonds and he seems to me to be classic rotational all the way down to the bat sitting on his shoulder and he has done very well.


Albert Pujols doesn't float the bat like Bonds,he does slowly drop his hands and then attack.


I would think the reason why the mlb coaches don't teach it(atleast a certain way) is because each person is different in what they need to do to relax right before that point they are to "spring into action".I am sure the hitting coaches help each player find what works for THEM.


On a different note

I was watching a major league hitting coach on tv and he said when a player comes up from the minors they give little to no instruction on how or what to do to hit the ball,there advice is to just hit the ball and put it in play.

Going back to some other discussions about Ankiel and teaching the kids to hit.

May I remind that to change one's mind during a journey is O.K. to do?

And, personal insults toward a Coach who does take the time to teach, and who does care, is not O.K.

If we could keep our passion directed toward hitting, where it belongs, we might all learn a thing or two, who knows?

Tfox, you make some good points that are worth discussing..........

But, I must tell you that hardly anyone anymore uses the term "rotational" as a way to describe any MLB'ers swing.....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Tfox, you make some good points that are worth discussing..........

But, I must tell you that hardly anyone anymore uses the term "rotational" as a way to describe any MLB'ers swing.....

Doesn't Edmonds still use pure rotational.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
Is it possible that handle torque and bat float are just naturall progressions from rotational hitting and the best will get there?

I think that must be what happens. They tuck their elbows to get to flat hands, but because the MLB pitcher's ball breaks so late that they have to torgue the handle to get their hands into position in time to still get to the ball. I think that great athletes find a way and that is what enables them to progress up the ladder from A ball to MLB.


You can watch Jim Edmondds and he seems to me to be classic rotational all the way down to the bat sitting on his shoulder and he has done very well.



Albert Pujols doesn't float the bat like Bonds,he does slowly drop his hands and then attack.


I would think the reason why the mlb coaches don't teach it(atleast a certain way) is because each person is different in what they need to do to relax right before that point they are to "spring into action".I am sure the hitting coaches help each player find what works for THEM.


On a different note

I was watching a major league hitting coach on tv and he said when a player comes up from the minors they give little to no instruction on how or what to do to hit the ball,there advice is to just hit the ball and put it in play.

Going back to some other discussions about Ankiel and teaching the kids to hit.

I think we are looking at 1 plane and 2 plane swings, IMO. Virtually all rotate, some just have a little more back to front motion.

I think a hitting Coach's job is to find what swing works with each hitter and not to clone them, but once the hands move to the ball there is very little difference in most good hitters. The Insructors job is to get them to that position in the most comfortable and efficient way possible.

quote:

The Insructors job is to get them to that position in the most comfortable and efficient way possible.

There's more to it than that.......

Hitters need to have a way to make late adjustments.....

There are those who believe the shoulders get bypassed in the swing....That makes a case against rotation and a hooking handpath.....

In a sadistic sort of way I really enjoy these threads where everyone argues and cuts down each other. I’m afraid there is something wrong with finding humor in reading this stuff (I mean the personal stuff), but I just can’t help it. Of course, I only enjoy it when I’m actually not part of the discussion! Is this a symptom of some kind of serious mental condition?

Think I’ll get one of them anonymous user names and join in. If all of a sudden you notice a new vicious attacker showing up on here, arguing about everything everyone posts and making personal insults… Please forgive me, I’m just having a lot of fun before they come to get me.

Oh! Forgot! This is a hitting forum, so not to be off target, here’s a good old "basic" hitting tip that nobody has ever been able to dispute and never will.

“HIT IT WHERE THEY AINT”

If that valuable advice is followed you will be extremely successful, in fact it works every time.

Sorry

Very enjoyable post PG.

For the most part directional hitting, situational hitting and bunting have become lost facets of the game due to many schools of similar thought as we see demonstrated here.

Baseball can be a very entertaining game if played by knowledgeable and talented participants.

quote:

Baseball can be a very entertaining game if played by knowledgeable and talented participants.

Entertaining by whose definition???

Fans attend games to see power hitting, balls off the fence and homeruns.....

Homeruns win games.....

Babe Ruth said if he wanted to hit singles he would wear a skirt......

Blue Dog

We are talking HS Travel baseball here where good baseball is and should appreciated---we had 9 doubleplays in 7 games and 4 consecutive shutouts in a tournament just finished ---the title game ( no we were not in it) was a 2-0 with a great play for a final out with the bases loaded--great baseball-- fun to coach and watch---all wood and REAL BASEBALL--

By the way when you run an event like this it is very fulfilling to see the top level of baseball that occurs---all 7 inning games under 2 Hours, many 1:30--

I need no skirt to play real baseball and there were no homeruns in the 42 games played---just great baseball--- in fact the umps that had worked the tournament and were not working the title game came back to watch the title game---great compliment to the players

I really dont care if chicks think they dig the long ball I like real baseball---if you are teaching kids to hit home runs I think you are wrong-- kids need to learn how to hit for AVERAGE!!!

"Average?"

I hit for average with the girls for a long time.

But that power move......Oh My God!!

TRhit, if you are playing against teams who don't have power hitters you can get away with it....

But, baseball has, and is, becoming more and more a power hitting game....If young players want to play at the high level, they better learn to hit with power....

quote:

By the way when you run an event like this it is very fulfilling to see the top level of baseball that occurs

Most one-run games are lost, not won. –Gene Mauch

"We hit the ball right where they could show off their defensive ability." - Earl Weaver (Baltimore Orioles manager), after the Orioles lost the 1969 World Series to the Mets.

TRhit, sure, top level of defense being played.....But, not top level of hitting....

PGStaff gave us some good advice, hit it where they ain't and you will be successful....This is not the precursor to double-plays being turned or to shutouts.......

No defense will shut down great power hitters....

If you can hit, you're gonna play!

Babe Ruth ended his career with a .342 lifetime batting average.

He went for good contact knowing that with good contact, home runs will come.

"I tell you, (Steve) Blass, you pitch me inside, they never, never find that ball."
Roberto Clemente

Ruth didn't get those numbers by bunting or situational hitting....

All the internet posts and video clips in the world - when added up all together - cannot replace a single real at-bat.

It is something that the Doggies - and Chameleons - and rag writers and bloggers will never understand.

It is ego deflating to admit that - and I understand the difficulty for these folks to accept that simple fact.

But that is the only truth I know about this game.

Most talk - and write - and blog. And some sell stuff too.

But only a few actually have to play the game and perform.

Wake up - and get real. IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
May I remind that to change one's mind during a journey is O.K. to do?

I understand that and is the reason you and I get along so well. You understand and believe your position and I do mine. However, we're both big enough to discuss it without the insults. To me that makes you a valuable friend and resource. That is also the reason I'd trust you to coach my child.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:And, personal insults toward a Coach who does take the time to teach, and who does care, is not O.K.

Richard's charges against me and his warning to others to dismiss my posts are nothing new. I often question myself. I recall once posting about our 4 hour practices and being ridiculed by him about being inefficient and having practices that were too long. To be honest, regardless of what I taught, I didn't go to the plate to hit for them. In any other regard, Richard is wrong. Until this past 2 years, our community didn't have any players play outside of the community for any traveling teams and all of the feeder teams have been coached all winter long in my program.

I believe SIBullets can speak to this and how prepared my players are and their knowledge base since he's been able to now coach a few. I believe he can also verify that Kevin Hoef was the first player in our community to go outside of the community to play for a travel team.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:If we could keep our passion directed toward hitting, where it belongs, we might all learn a thing or two, who knows?

I too wish that this was the norm but unfortunately, it is not.

Regarding "torque" my interpretations of much of what one beleives to be "torque" in the hands can be attributed to the creation of "tension." When I am hitting fungos, I don't believe I create any torque per say on purpose. I do believe that I create tension. The ability to then drive a ball out of the park once in a while, by accident, when hitting fungos to outfielders (double cut situations) I believe to be driven by the core.

Finally, when one is talking about these different philosphies of what to do with the hands and then also discuss power, I know that the further my hands are away from the body and core, the weaker that they become. In order to have consistent power I believe you have to stay connected. JMHO!

Oh, I forgot, yes, Bluedog is correct when he asserted that few people in the most recent hitting guru wars use the term rotational. We're off to other arguments.

quote:

Regarding "torque" my interpretations of much of what one beleives to be "torque" in the hands can be attributed to the creation of "tension."

Oh Oh Oh Oh..........

THIS IS GOOD.

This is going to cost PCR big time.

Thank you very much......

If I were you I'd offer to clean the bath rooms and work concessions. It will take a lot to over come the damage you just did.

Chameleon, CoachB25 is as competent as any Coach in this Country....I know this to be so.....I, also know he is sincere and caring about his players.....There aren't many Coaches like him.....

I really hope we can discuss hitting without the attacking mentality we're all guilty of, at times....Try, O.K.?

"Owners reasoned if homers saved the game at the beginning of the century, they could do the same at the end of the century.

"Every concession was made to power," wrote Thomas Boswell in a column for the Washington Post."
--------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
"Owners reasoned if homers saved the game at the beginning of the century, they could do the same at the end of the century.

"Every concession was made to power," wrote Thomas Boswell in a column for the Washington Post."
--------------------------------------

I think in the modern context, "Chicks dig the long ball." Yes, the big fly is what puts people in the seats and despite all of the cries against Bonds, or anyone else for that matter, it's why people watch. Mantle is perhaps the best blend of both power and speed. It was a shame his speed was lost early in his career. I also agree that Aaron would have been great anytime. Bob Gibson commenting the other day stated that he thinks Aaron is under-rated as a hitter. He considered him a "hard out." I think that the comparisons of video of all of these hitters hold some great insights. I do believe that they all had the ability to adjust.

Chameleon, your comment regarding my statement on "tension" demonstrates the point when you once posted after your meeting of Steve, "we don't do that." One of the many video demonstrations on Steve's site is the use of bungee cord to create tension. You also noted that on this site when you mocked a poster last year who spoke of keeping the hands loose. In every swing, a moment comes where tension must be created or that bat will fly out of the hands. Bluedog also posted on this last year at about this time. His statement on that thread concerned the creation of tension throughout the body in a "load." I would think that we would all agree that tension has to exist. What is connections? A form of tension. What is tilt? A form of tension. How they are linked is the key. With 30 milliseconds for those muscles to "go," that kenetic link must have some type of load. JMHO!

Many great hitters are on record saying that it's best to get mad as you step into the box....This alone will create a degree of tension in the body....

Clearing the mind (concentration) is a form of tension.....

Loading the shoulder linkage requires tension......

Hitters are full of tension.....Take a look at their forearms while swinging....Those muscles are tight....

The tension that is promoted at PCR is so severe....so tight.....that the body is bogged down.

No degree of fitness can overcome the tension they propose and teach in the shoulder complex. Trust me. It was demonstrated to me...in person. And this very thing was one of many things that led me elsewhere. No....we don't do that. "That" being the tension that was demonstrated to me.

Neither do big league hitters.

In addition, tension as they describe it, has to be "applied" WAY too early in the swing, and held until initiation/completion. Otherwise, you would never achieve the necessary level of connection.

This is a tremendous "weight", a tremendous "load", on the system. A load that the body simply can not move in the allotted time frame. It takes such effort to get it moving that whatever speed it generates is too late and too far "out front", costing adjustability and large timing errors.

Furthermore, this tension precludes separation. The more tense you get the less you're going to separate. And this almost eliminates the ability to cusp.

Without a cusp...without the "mechanical advantage" gained by separtation, you have no chance to hit high level pitchers.

Finally, connection is instantaneously achieved and instantaneously spent. It is attained at "go" and gone immediately.

duplicate post.

Hey Chamelion remember that discussion on Weglarz last year. After surgery on his hand he is batting 277 with 21 HRs so far. No change in the swing. They paid him 445000 for that swing.
I will be looking for a milk shake from you very soon.

Click on this site
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/draft/y2005/tracker/search.jsp?sc=lastName&sp=W
Go to Nick Weglarz are watch the video. This guy is a friend and he is a true power LH hitter.

I will agree that the tension in the shoulder linkage needs to be created late in the swing process and needs to be created and then released quickly for the cusp....

Holding tension in the shoulders doesn't work, I agree....

I'll have more to add on this topic but did want to quickly clarify some issues.

• Richard placed me in a category mentioning *****, Greg Stock, Fungo, MarkH, ssarge, etc etc etc. I don't deserve to be mentioned in a group with guys that have a far better understanding of PCR and who have been around since the ****** days. My comments are just that. I often talk to Steve and he helps give me guidance when I'm messing up on a thought process or drill. The others are valuable resources for me as well.
• Tension, the word I used that Richard states will put me in all kinds of trouble with the PCR crowd. Tension is one of those words that in the hitting field gets twisted in its meaning. I stated a drill to Richard to clarify to him my meaning of tension. In doing so, I thought he knew the drill from the vast video library on Steve's site. I didn't realize that he was booted off before that library became so extensive. It is possible that he didn't see that drill. For that Richard, I apologize. You might be ignorant about that drill. Ignorant meaning not exposed. Too bad, it's a great drill.
• I posted a comment/quote Richard made to Steve Englishbey. More on that tomorrow. Who knows, where that one will take us. BTW, I believe that quote was posted on Shawn's site by Richard and while he admits he was "wrong" it goes to demonstrate his understanding of what PCR is.

I have to get to sleep now. We're on a heat schedule for another week and anticipating more temperature over 96 degrees this week. It's been so hot here - we've just shattered the record for the hottest August on record in the St. Louis area.

Take care!

I've always considered my role as a moderator in this forum as one who should do little posting and so, I've attempted to remain on the sideline during most of these debates. That doesn't mean that I don't have an opinion. I was looking at some old video on another siteand came across this video and quote and so, I asked permission to post it. The person doing the hitting said it best with this quote concerning PCR.

"Tadlock....you asked "how do you get started" in this drill. Well, I didn't have any trouble starting. But, I am amazed at how it was easier to hit this way than the other. I need an explanation. I hit rope after rope. It feels like your arms are just "out there", they just "stay there", and then your body turns. And when it does, the bat just does it's thing. I do not get it. But, I accept it." August 2006!

Video demonstration of the above post contained in the same post:



_________

Well, this is a basic hitting technique.


Per "technique" I thought I'd throw this in as quoted by Steve Englishbey:

"I tried to point out [again] that PCR is a standard ---a functional standard of an elite swing .And it is a way of understanding the kinds of things that are vital to really learning how to swing the bat more effectively .And it is a standard by which you can go about trying to measure the effciency of a young hitters' swing .Or lack thereof .

And it is NOT per se about "technique " or "a technique" ."

In reality, and again, there is no such thing as a "Very Basic Hitting Technique." I would suggest that anyone interested in this topic do their research and/or if you've done so, understand where combatants on these various sites are coming from. I have not, as of yet, commented on the quote mentioned in one of my previous posts and am leaving that, at least for a day or two, to another poster who might join in. If not, I'll address it in the future. I might also add that I was intrigued by the claims of "not a technique" and have continued to be. In our experience, it is more a training of the body and so, I really find that concept intriguing. For example, my child mentions the workout of her core muscles when hitting.

Darn, the video in the above is blocked. I'm going to have to ask that it be freed up. I'll keep the link for now in case a certain person sees it and ask that it be freed up.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Darn, the video in the above is blocked. I'm going to have to ask that it be freed up. I'll keep the link for now in case a certain person sees it and ask that it be freed up.

Coach,
You have a PM

Our team has had several kids from several different schools and states and Coachb's kids are as well prepared as any we have had. They understand the fundamentals of the game, situational aspects and various other things that we usually have to teach most of our other kids. To question what he does with his kids is ignorance. I have been around few guys who care more about his players and program than Coach Butler. Kevin Hoef was also an outstanding player that didnt play for us but was a kid who I thought was a tremendous player. The most telling thing about his kids is that he seems to have instilled a passion for the game that most others don't seem to have.