quote:Originally posted by Shepster:
...If we only knew then what we know now...
Especially with the ladies.
Especially with the ladies.
Especially with the ladies.
Thanks Shep, It's.
I can teach this to any 70+mph thrower in about 15 minutes. Will take them quite a few reps in games to trust and believe. But he will have as good a pop time as any catcher he runs into who has a stonger arm and throws with the jump pivot after one year of development time.
But, since I have had few biters on the key, here it is. Most people don't realize there is such a thing as a vertical load. In fact, before s e t p r o and Englishbey, I didn't know it existed either. They are aware of counter rotation, showing the pocket, negative move leading to a positive move etc etc. But, vertical?....
It's very important in hitting and in throwing. I throw right handed and learned to do it on my own (without knowing it was a special concept) and did it all my life and it is very instrumental in this catching technique. I did it all my life but didn't know what I was doing. Just like most mlb hitters can't tell you what they are doing....they just do it. But, I can tell you exactly where/how I learned it. I learned it when I was a secondbaseman. Very important in turning a dp with something on the throw.
Well, my problem was I didn't understand what I was doing enough to transfer it to hitting. Throwing right handed and hitting lefthanded, the vertical load for throwing was on one side of my body and for hitting on the other. I never put 2 and 2 together and figured it out until s e t p r o/Englishbey.
Now, I can vertical load "from the other side" and it makes a huge difference in hitting.
What is it? Look at the load that exists in my lower back. It is the same load a linebacker has to meet a ball carrier head on. It is the same load a basketball jumper uses to jump. It's in the legs, pelvis, abs, lower back. It is noticed best when you see the butt sticking out. It is not the counter rotation or "showing the pocket" load.......which is important also....you do both.
It is also why the "bases empty" stance is very important. The load that exists naturally in that stance can unload by simply raising up. As I raise, almost straight up, I am unloading. I've already been loaded.....for the entire pitch. As soon as I raise, I'm unloading. And, while I'm unloading vertically, I'm also loading the hips with a counter move and the arm later. The kinetic chain is at work very well. And all the catch and transfer and other stuff happens as I'm unloading, not loading. This is very very important to have the quickest release possible.
When a catcher uses the "runners on base" stance he is in a very poor vertical unload position. His axis is too wide...therefore too slow. Both the counter move load and the counter unload is too slow. So, he has to hop to generate momentum. I already have the momentum. I have forward momentum as I raise out of that stance. And my right foot never moves. Good rotation sends energy UP the chain. This move generates energy in the center and moves it upward. You can feel the energy go up the body and out the arm.
Any of you can feel it if you get in both stances and experiment. In the "bases empty" stance, as you raise up, counter the hips and throw. You can counter while you raise.
In the "runners on" stance. Try the same thing....It doesn't work.
This vertical load/unload is absolutely powerful and that is why this technique is so beneficial to a weaker arm thrower and is just the opposite of what everyone here believes. Almost to a one of you, you claim this takes a strong arm. No it does not.
The vertical load/unload is a very important ingredient in what creates the "one move" swing that mlb hitters use. It is the main difference between a high level and low level swing. It is also a main ingredient in throwing. Whether you are a catcher or not.
Finally, I realize I'm not going to change the world. Especially the baseball world. No one holds anything more dear to them than their baseball beliefs. You'll make a Republican a Democrat before you'll change a guys baseball beliefs.
But, for those of you with open minds.....you have a 2.0 or below catcher on your team right now......You want to find him?
I can teach this to any 70+mph thrower in about 15 minutes. Will take them quite a few reps in games to trust and believe. But he will have as good a pop time as any catcher he runs into who has a stonger arm and throws with the jump pivot after one year of development time.
But, since I have had few biters on the key, here it is. Most people don't realize there is such a thing as a vertical load. In fact, before s e t p r o and Englishbey, I didn't know it existed either. They are aware of counter rotation, showing the pocket, negative move leading to a positive move etc etc. But, vertical?....
It's very important in hitting and in throwing. I throw right handed and learned to do it on my own (without knowing it was a special concept) and did it all my life and it is very instrumental in this catching technique. I did it all my life but didn't know what I was doing. Just like most mlb hitters can't tell you what they are doing....they just do it. But, I can tell you exactly where/how I learned it. I learned it when I was a secondbaseman. Very important in turning a dp with something on the throw.
Well, my problem was I didn't understand what I was doing enough to transfer it to hitting. Throwing right handed and hitting lefthanded, the vertical load for throwing was on one side of my body and for hitting on the other. I never put 2 and 2 together and figured it out until s e t p r o/Englishbey.
Now, I can vertical load "from the other side" and it makes a huge difference in hitting.
What is it? Look at the load that exists in my lower back. It is the same load a linebacker has to meet a ball carrier head on. It is the same load a basketball jumper uses to jump. It's in the legs, pelvis, abs, lower back. It is noticed best when you see the butt sticking out. It is not the counter rotation or "showing the pocket" load.......which is important also....you do both.
It is also why the "bases empty" stance is very important. The load that exists naturally in that stance can unload by simply raising up. As I raise, almost straight up, I am unloading. I've already been loaded.....for the entire pitch. As soon as I raise, I'm unloading. And, while I'm unloading vertically, I'm also loading the hips with a counter move and the arm later. The kinetic chain is at work very well. And all the catch and transfer and other stuff happens as I'm unloading, not loading. This is very very important to have the quickest release possible.
When a catcher uses the "runners on base" stance he is in a very poor vertical unload position. His axis is too wide...therefore too slow. Both the counter move load and the counter unload is too slow. So, he has to hop to generate momentum. I already have the momentum. I have forward momentum as I raise out of that stance. And my right foot never moves. Good rotation sends energy UP the chain. This move generates energy in the center and moves it upward. You can feel the energy go up the body and out the arm.
Any of you can feel it if you get in both stances and experiment. In the "bases empty" stance, as you raise up, counter the hips and throw. You can counter while you raise.
In the "runners on" stance. Try the same thing....It doesn't work.
This vertical load/unload is absolutely powerful and that is why this technique is so beneficial to a weaker arm thrower and is just the opposite of what everyone here believes. Almost to a one of you, you claim this takes a strong arm. No it does not.
The vertical load/unload is a very important ingredient in what creates the "one move" swing that mlb hitters use. It is the main difference between a high level and low level swing. It is also a main ingredient in throwing. Whether you are a catcher or not.
Finally, I realize I'm not going to change the world. Especially the baseball world. No one holds anything more dear to them than their baseball beliefs. You'll make a Republican a Democrat before you'll change a guys baseball beliefs.
But, for those of you with open minds.....you have a 2.0 or below catcher on your team right now......You want to find him?
LOL...True, so true 
. Aout the ladies that is....
Interesting point about LHH/RH thrower loading also.
Shep
. Aout the ladies that is....Interesting point about LHH/RH thrower loading also.
Shep
Linear,
This is kind of amazing. Jim VanScoyac (pronounced Van Scoy) is not only a good friend, but he also works for us.
There is a movie being filmed this summer named "The Final Season". Sam Elliott plays Jim VanScoyac. The guy that played "Rudy" (Notre Dame) is also in the movie. Jim became the coach at Norway, IA and coached several guys who ended up playing in the Big Leagues. They won more games than anyone in Iowa high school history. Van Scoyac then became a pitching coach in the Detroit Tigers organization.
One of Jim's players was Bruce Kimm who played in the Big Leagues (catcher) and coached in the MLB for many years with Jim Leyland. World Series ring with the Marlins, and was with the Pirates when Barry Bonds was there. Bruce and I were two of the original people who started PG. Now Jim VanScoyac is head of our instruction department.
A couple other close friends... After you left Iowa State, Larry Corrigan became the Head Coach and later was the Minnesota Twins Scouting Director. Still works for the Twins (Special assignment) and lives in Ft Myers, FL. We see him every time we go there. Later Lyle Smith became the head coach up until the time they dropped baseball at Iowa State. Lyle also worked with us for a few years.
I had several friends that went to Kirksville. Is that now Truman State? One of my best friends was a kid named Larry Anderson, he was a pitcher. To this day he had one of the strongest arms I've ever seen. Ended up getting hurt (probably TJ would have helped, but it didn't exist back then! Larry later became a catcher in the Major Open for Modern Piping, another National Level team.
There's probably a lot of people that we both know. Thanks for the memories.
By the way, you're really starting to prove a few points here. I like the video (still don't totally agree) but admire your persistance. I do think your clips have got me to thinking.
Most of all, it's obvious you're a player (or was one). That makes a big difference in my mind. When I see clips of someone who obviously never played trying to show how things are done, no matter how much sense they make, it's just hard to pay close attention.
Please, quit being an a-hole (at times)! you have so much to offer in these discussions. I think everyone knows it, but you get caught up in personal battles (sometimes) instead of just giving good info for people to think about. You don't have to be #1, I think everyone knows your real good!
I, for one, appreciate your input, almost always! Besides you're too old, fat and good lookin to be fighting all the time. Next time I get in your neck of the woods, I'd like to look you up, except I'm scared you'd kick my skinny old a**! JMO
This is kind of amazing. Jim VanScoyac (pronounced Van Scoy) is not only a good friend, but he also works for us.
There is a movie being filmed this summer named "The Final Season". Sam Elliott plays Jim VanScoyac. The guy that played "Rudy" (Notre Dame) is also in the movie. Jim became the coach at Norway, IA and coached several guys who ended up playing in the Big Leagues. They won more games than anyone in Iowa high school history. Van Scoyac then became a pitching coach in the Detroit Tigers organization.
One of Jim's players was Bruce Kimm who played in the Big Leagues (catcher) and coached in the MLB for many years with Jim Leyland. World Series ring with the Marlins, and was with the Pirates when Barry Bonds was there. Bruce and I were two of the original people who started PG. Now Jim VanScoyac is head of our instruction department.
A couple other close friends... After you left Iowa State, Larry Corrigan became the Head Coach and later was the Minnesota Twins Scouting Director. Still works for the Twins (Special assignment) and lives in Ft Myers, FL. We see him every time we go there. Later Lyle Smith became the head coach up until the time they dropped baseball at Iowa State. Lyle also worked with us for a few years.
I had several friends that went to Kirksville. Is that now Truman State? One of my best friends was a kid named Larry Anderson, he was a pitcher. To this day he had one of the strongest arms I've ever seen. Ended up getting hurt (probably TJ would have helped, but it didn't exist back then! Larry later became a catcher in the Major Open for Modern Piping, another National Level team.
There's probably a lot of people that we both know. Thanks for the memories.
By the way, you're really starting to prove a few points here. I like the video (still don't totally agree) but admire your persistance. I do think your clips have got me to thinking.
Most of all, it's obvious you're a player (or was one). That makes a big difference in my mind. When I see clips of someone who obviously never played trying to show how things are done, no matter how much sense they make, it's just hard to pay close attention.
Please, quit being an a-hole (at times)! you have so much to offer in these discussions. I think everyone knows it, but you get caught up in personal battles (sometimes) instead of just giving good info for people to think about. You don't have to be #1, I think everyone knows your real good!
I, for one, appreciate your input, almost always! Besides you're too old, fat and good lookin to be fighting all the time. Next time I get in your neck of the woods, I'd like to look you up, except I'm scared you'd kick my skinny old a**! JMO
Are you saying Jim is Craig's dad? I'm not sure of the names anymore. It's been 30 years.
I just looked online for information on the history of U of I baseball to verify name and can't find anything. I did find the name Mims. He was on our summer team. Johnson County Merchants. We played in the little town south of Iowa City on 218.....Hills, Ia.
Percival is another U if I name I remember. Tim, maybe. There was another guy, older than the rest of us whose name was Duncan.
Would have been 1975 or 76 I think.
You mention girls basketball which means you have to know the name Debbie Coates. Her dad, Tom was my high school baseball coach. My senior year, we were playing Highland, (near Iowa City) for our conference championship. I had a catchers balk called on me when we were intentionally walking someone. I had never ever seen one called. Didn't know what one was. Haven't seen one called since. Never. Coach Coates went off on me. I said...."I didn't know that, d a m n it!" He pulled me from the extra inning 0-0 game and we lost 1-0 on a walk, stolen base, advance on infield out and passed ball by my replacement. Coach took an extreme amount of grief from our fans and parents for that move. I had never ever popped off like that before. I had never heard of a catchers balk. Oh well.
Mike Boddicker beat Mediapolis out of the state tournament the first year that Iowa went to a 2 class system. I had already graduated. Year before, my senior season, Burlington beat us. They had a nice program for years with that weird guy coaching them. What was his name? Wow......he was flaming scary. Craig House pitched and beat us. What happened to him? Nice high school player. Everything was easy for him.
I just looked online for information on the history of U of I baseball to verify name and can't find anything. I did find the name Mims. He was on our summer team. Johnson County Merchants. We played in the little town south of Iowa City on 218.....Hills, Ia.
Percival is another U if I name I remember. Tim, maybe. There was another guy, older than the rest of us whose name was Duncan.
Would have been 1975 or 76 I think.
You mention girls basketball which means you have to know the name Debbie Coates. Her dad, Tom was my high school baseball coach. My senior year, we were playing Highland, (near Iowa City) for our conference championship. I had a catchers balk called on me when we were intentionally walking someone. I had never ever seen one called. Didn't know what one was. Haven't seen one called since. Never. Coach Coates went off on me. I said...."I didn't know that, d a m n it!" He pulled me from the extra inning 0-0 game and we lost 1-0 on a walk, stolen base, advance on infield out and passed ball by my replacement. Coach took an extreme amount of grief from our fans and parents for that move. I had never ever popped off like that before. I had never heard of a catchers balk. Oh well.
Mike Boddicker beat Mediapolis out of the state tournament the first year that Iowa went to a 2 class system. I had already graduated. Year before, my senior season, Burlington beat us. They had a nice program for years with that weird guy coaching them. What was his name? Wow......he was flaming scary. Craig House pitched and beat us. What happened to him? Nice high school player. Everything was easy for him.
Thanks Sandman for the clip.
Both catchers receiving an inside pitch. Pretty much identical location for both.
52 year old fat man on the right that never played professionally.
Allstar mlb catcher on the left. Some say the best ever.
Old man using one technique.
Allstar using a different technique.
Clips synced so both are catching ball at same time.
Virtually no diffence in their release time.
I deduct the fat man's technique is quicker. Why? Allstar is a great athlete in tremendous shape. Fat man is.....well.....besides other things.......fat.
Both catchers receiving an inside pitch. Pretty much identical location for both.
52 year old fat man on the right that never played professionally.
Allstar mlb catcher on the left. Some say the best ever.
Old man using one technique.
Allstar using a different technique.
Clips synced so both are catching ball at same time.
Virtually no diffence in their release time.
I deduct the fat man's technique is quicker. Why? Allstar is a great athlete in tremendous shape. Fat man is.....well.....besides other things.......fat.
Jim does have a son named Craig. Can't remember if he played at U of Iowa , though. We could be talking about different people all together. Jim is about 66 I think and his son is in his early 40s.
Fred Mims is now the assistant AD and compliance officer at Iowa. He played some pro ball after college. Percival sounds familiar and Dave Duncan was a very good athlete. Don't know if that's who you mean, though.
I DO remember Debbie Coates. Seemed like Mediapolis was in the girls state tournament every year for a long time.
Mike Boddiker is a friend, do you remember Dick McVay. McVay was even better than Mike in high school. Mike was a lot smarter and came a few years later. Mike lives in Kansas City and has a son playing college ball. For some reason I can't remember Craig House.
Back in the old days another good high school team was Bancroft. Dennis Menke (Braves) and a few other guys went on to play pro ball out of that tiny school. By the way, Norway was a high school that had less than a hundred kids (total enrollment). They had 6 or 7 from that school that ended up playing in the Big Leagues including Boddiker, Kimm and Hal Trosky. Many others played pro ball. Maybe the best player ever was Max Elliott a shortstop who played several years of pro ball, got to AAA and quit. He then played in that same Major Open softball league for a few years and now lives in New Zealand where he is a legend!
The school (Norway) was so small that they closed it. Thus the movie, "The Final Season". Some of our people are actually in the movie. The producers came to talk to us when they were looking for money. They were about 4 million shy of what they needed. Needless to say, we were about 4 million shy of being able to help. At the time, they likened the movie to a baseball version of "Hoosiers"... We'll see, I hope it's that big!
By the way, you mentioned Hills, IA, I'm not very good at remembering years, but they had a kid that threw mid 90s in high school, went to Iowa and progressively got worse for 4 straight years. By the time he graduated he was throwing mid 80s. Can't remember his name at all now. Alan something or other!
It seems like all the very best players from Iowa came from the smallest towns and schools. Cal Eldred came from Urbana, Bob Feller came from Van Meter, my son was the first player from Cedar Rapids to ever play in the Big Leagues, first appeared in 1998, and CR has 8 or 9 very large high schools. Little Norway had several and they're about 20 minutes from us. Go figure!
You remind me of a guy named Ron Findly (baseball softball legend) older than me. He had a great baseball mind and was the one who taught me about the catcher dropping his facemask in the path of a runner trying to score. They (runner) never ever stepped on the mask and you knew by the placement of the mask where they were going to slide. You could block half the plate with your mask, they always avoided it! He was coaching our kids team and I was catching (usually played shortstop). There was a runner at 2B and the hitter singled to rightfield. Hitter dropped his bat on the 3B line. I didn't know what to do, so I reached down and threw the bat out of the way. Ron got in my face saying "Ford that was so NIIIICE of you. Why did you pick up that bat?" I said to get it out of the way of a play at the plate. He said, "The throw is coming from rightfield, how's that bat going to keep you from making a play? Let the umpire or the runner deal with that bat" That might have been my first lesson in real HARDBALL!
Been fun reminiscing with you Linear, gotta go now.
Fred Mims is now the assistant AD and compliance officer at Iowa. He played some pro ball after college. Percival sounds familiar and Dave Duncan was a very good athlete. Don't know if that's who you mean, though.
I DO remember Debbie Coates. Seemed like Mediapolis was in the girls state tournament every year for a long time.
Mike Boddiker is a friend, do you remember Dick McVay. McVay was even better than Mike in high school. Mike was a lot smarter and came a few years later. Mike lives in Kansas City and has a son playing college ball. For some reason I can't remember Craig House.
Back in the old days another good high school team was Bancroft. Dennis Menke (Braves) and a few other guys went on to play pro ball out of that tiny school. By the way, Norway was a high school that had less than a hundred kids (total enrollment). They had 6 or 7 from that school that ended up playing in the Big Leagues including Boddiker, Kimm and Hal Trosky. Many others played pro ball. Maybe the best player ever was Max Elliott a shortstop who played several years of pro ball, got to AAA and quit. He then played in that same Major Open softball league for a few years and now lives in New Zealand where he is a legend!
The school (Norway) was so small that they closed it. Thus the movie, "The Final Season". Some of our people are actually in the movie. The producers came to talk to us when they were looking for money. They were about 4 million shy of what they needed. Needless to say, we were about 4 million shy of being able to help. At the time, they likened the movie to a baseball version of "Hoosiers"... We'll see, I hope it's that big!
By the way, you mentioned Hills, IA, I'm not very good at remembering years, but they had a kid that threw mid 90s in high school, went to Iowa and progressively got worse for 4 straight years. By the time he graduated he was throwing mid 80s. Can't remember his name at all now. Alan something or other!
It seems like all the very best players from Iowa came from the smallest towns and schools. Cal Eldred came from Urbana, Bob Feller came from Van Meter, my son was the first player from Cedar Rapids to ever play in the Big Leagues, first appeared in 1998, and CR has 8 or 9 very large high schools. Little Norway had several and they're about 20 minutes from us. Go figure!
You remind me of a guy named Ron Findly (baseball softball legend) older than me. He had a great baseball mind and was the one who taught me about the catcher dropping his facemask in the path of a runner trying to score. They (runner) never ever stepped on the mask and you knew by the placement of the mask where they were going to slide. You could block half the plate with your mask, they always avoided it! He was coaching our kids team and I was catching (usually played shortstop). There was a runner at 2B and the hitter singled to rightfield. Hitter dropped his bat on the 3B line. I didn't know what to do, so I reached down and threw the bat out of the way. Ron got in my face saying "Ford that was so NIIIICE of you. Why did you pick up that bat?" I said to get it out of the way of a play at the plate. He said, "The throw is coming from rightfield, how's that bat going to keep you from making a play? Let the umpire or the runner deal with that bat" That might have been my first lesson in real HARDBALL!
Been fun reminiscing with you Linear, gotta go now.
PG
When you wake up tomorrow...
Good morning.
Who was the kid that hit all the HR's in high school. Seems like it was just a few years ago. In college or pro now? What town was he from?
Yes, Dick McVey, Bruce Kimm, others from Norway.....unbelievable story. I was in 8th grade when Norway came to Stanwood to play our school (Lincoln Community) in a high school baseball game. Dick McVey pitched. We were trilled when we lost 1-0 or 2-1 in extra innings when the left fielder lost a ball in the sun.
Dave Duncan was on our team. Good hitter. I caught. He DH'd.
Finally, Vernon McClaren was the Mediapolis girls basketball coach for all those years. My math teacher. What a great influence he had on me. I had no business majoring in math. I failed first year college calculus. But, I went off to Iowa State in August of 1972 and wanted to be just like him......so I majored in math....for one semester. Changed to social sciences and became a history teacher. Really wanted to coach. Left to the business world for financial reasons. Would love to coach now that "life" is better.
When you wake up tomorrow...
Good morning.
Who was the kid that hit all the HR's in high school. Seems like it was just a few years ago. In college or pro now? What town was he from?
Yes, Dick McVey, Bruce Kimm, others from Norway.....unbelievable story. I was in 8th grade when Norway came to Stanwood to play our school (Lincoln Community) in a high school baseball game. Dick McVey pitched. We were trilled when we lost 1-0 or 2-1 in extra innings when the left fielder lost a ball in the sun.
Dave Duncan was on our team. Good hitter. I caught. He DH'd.
Finally, Vernon McClaren was the Mediapolis girls basketball coach for all those years. My math teacher. What a great influence he had on me. I had no business majoring in math. I failed first year college calculus. But, I went off to Iowa State in August of 1972 and wanted to be just like him......so I majored in math....for one semester. Changed to social sciences and became a history teacher. Really wanted to coach. Left to the business world for financial reasons. Would love to coach now that "life" is better.
Still here...
Jeff Clement Marshalltown, IA. Amazing story...
Jeff broke the all time hs record for career HRs. He hit 70 some and broke Drew Henson's (Michigan) record. Jeff played in our wood bat stuff since he was in 8th grade. He was projected to be a 1st/2nd round pick out of hs.
We have a National Predraft in CR every May shortly before the draft. Jeff's senior year he was one of about 4 or 5 top catchers at the Predraft. Brian McCann (Braves rookie last year) was another. Jeff was ranked #1 catcher in the nation (by us)
Lots of front office types and Scouting Directors come to this predraft. Del Crandell and Logan White (Dodgers) were real high on Jeff. Roy Clark and Dayton Moore (Braves) were real high on McCann.
Jeff had the very worst day of his life. He couldn't hit, he couldn't catch, he couldn't throw. He stunk up the place, was the worst player among the 60 or so that were there that day.
After words Joel Lepel (Twins) and Harvey Kuenn Jr (Brewers) and I went to a Sports Bar with a bunch of other scouts. Everyone questioned whether or not Clemens could hit. I said, "Listen, the question is can he catch, I know he's going to hit!"
Anyway, He had one of those nightmare days. Carl Crawford (D'Rays all star OF)also had one of those days a few years earlier at the same event.
So Clement slipped to the 12/13th round (Twins) but went to Southern Cal instead of signing for a very small offer.
The rest is history... Last June (after his Junior year at USC) he was selected in the 1st round (3rd pick overall) by the Mariners. He signed quickly for about 3.5 million.
He tore up the low A Midwest League his 1st year and appears to be on the fast track.
Thanks for asking.
Jeff Clement Marshalltown, IA. Amazing story...
Jeff broke the all time hs record for career HRs. He hit 70 some and broke Drew Henson's (Michigan) record. Jeff played in our wood bat stuff since he was in 8th grade. He was projected to be a 1st/2nd round pick out of hs.
We have a National Predraft in CR every May shortly before the draft. Jeff's senior year he was one of about 4 or 5 top catchers at the Predraft. Brian McCann (Braves rookie last year) was another. Jeff was ranked #1 catcher in the nation (by us)
Lots of front office types and Scouting Directors come to this predraft. Del Crandell and Logan White (Dodgers) were real high on Jeff. Roy Clark and Dayton Moore (Braves) were real high on McCann.
Jeff had the very worst day of his life. He couldn't hit, he couldn't catch, he couldn't throw. He stunk up the place, was the worst player among the 60 or so that were there that day.
After words Joel Lepel (Twins) and Harvey Kuenn Jr (Brewers) and I went to a Sports Bar with a bunch of other scouts. Everyone questioned whether or not Clemens could hit. I said, "Listen, the question is can he catch, I know he's going to hit!"
Anyway, He had one of those nightmare days. Carl Crawford (D'Rays all star OF)also had one of those days a few years earlier at the same event.
So Clement slipped to the 12/13th round (Twins) but went to Southern Cal instead of signing for a very small offer.
The rest is history... Last June (after his Junior year at USC) he was selected in the 1st round (3rd pick overall) by the Mariners. He signed quickly for about 3.5 million.
He tore up the low A Midwest League his 1st year and appears to be on the fast track.
Thanks for asking.
Linear,
Let's say your release is equal to the professional catcher's. However, he is generating enough force to throw a baserunner out at second base. Everything a catcher does mechanically must lead to the most powerful throw in the least time. Your transfer travels below your belt to a release point that is not optimum because of your injury. Pudge transfers across his chest and gets the ball to where he generates (amazing) arm speed.
I see how your technique could be effective on pitches middle-out, but near your right knee. Travel time for the baseball across your body to where you throw from tells me that it would be better spent moving your feet and generating more force toward second.
Let's say your release is equal to the professional catcher's. However, he is generating enough force to throw a baserunner out at second base. Everything a catcher does mechanically must lead to the most powerful throw in the least time. Your transfer travels below your belt to a release point that is not optimum because of your injury. Pudge transfers across his chest and gets the ball to where he generates (amazing) arm speed.
I see how your technique could be effective on pitches middle-out, but near your right knee. Travel time for the baseball across your body to where you throw from tells me that it would be better spent moving your feet and generating more force toward second.
quote:..he is generating enough force to throw a baserunner out at 2B..
I threw quite a few out in my day. In fact, in the first inning of a game, with a struggling pitcher, I picked a runner at first, threw a runner out at second and picked a third runner at third. All three outs. No runs scored.
You missed the entire vertical load point. There is great momentum toward 2B as the vertical load unloads.
Look at the side view of the outside pitch. Same kind of momentum exists on the inside pitch. You can't see it due to the camera angle.
How much quicker would a highly trained talented athlete be at my technique than I am at 52. I bet the technique would be at least one frame of video quicker (maybe more) if we were comparing apples to apples. Well trained talent to well trained talent.
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
...Your transfer travels below your belt to a release point that is not optimum because of your injury. Pudge transfers across his chest and gets the ball to where he generates (amazing) arm speed.
One thing, and one thing only determines how the balls travels in the transfer and that is pitch location.
I was asked for clips handling an inside pitch. I included a clip of an outside pitch anticipating that request. Both pitches are "extremes". Therefore, you see extremes and try to make an issue.....one that better fits your baseball religion.
Finally, a certain amount of time is needed for the body to throw. My body is working at it's top speed. What difference does it make if the ball was transfered earlier? None. In fact, you can make a case it would be detrimental. If I lost rhythm in the transfer I break the kinetic chain. I believe the pro catcher can be even better. Notice the pause the ball has when his arm is in the "high c o c k e d" position. Any pause in a throwing delivery costs you mph. He transfered early, body still needed its time.....has to pause the ball. As strong a talent as this guy is he actually pushes this throw instead of throws it. Is there any momentum if you pause? What good is all the other stuff if you stop it before you throw?
I'm not trying to make an issue, just offering an opinion of what I see using what was taught to me in high school, college and the minors as a catcher.
Look at your clip: you start with the baseball next to the stripe on the left arm of your sweater, loop it below your stomach and transfer behind your right hip. That's slower than going directly across your chest and behind the right ear. If you moved your feet, essentially bringing your body behind the ball while your transfer, you would be more efficient.
Signed: Rev. MJM
Look at your clip: you start with the baseball next to the stripe on the left arm of your sweater, loop it below your stomach and transfer behind your right hip. That's slower than going directly across your chest and behind the right ear. If you moved your feet, essentially bringing your body behind the ball while your transfer, you would be more efficient.
Signed: Rev. MJM
Since you missed the entire "vertical load" point above it doesn't surprise me that you missed the entire "transfer speed" versus "body throwing speed" point.
Just let me know if you don't want to converse. I'll stop addressing the issues you raise and talk to the others.
If I was quicker with the transfer then I'd have to pause the ball like the pro catcher does. That is no good either.
Just let me know if you don't want to converse. I'll stop addressing the issues you raise and talk to the others.
If I was quicker with the transfer then I'd have to pause the ball like the pro catcher does. That is no good either.
If that's what you call a pause in the pudge clip, then I'd prefer to pause and fire than slide a transfer and flick the baseball toward a target. I can vertical load from my chair and throw my cell phone at the wall of my office as quickly as you can with your baseball. But nobody's trying to steal that wall.
I understand every point you've made. Now I understand that you are doing what works for you at 52 with your injured arm and physical limitations, that the slower transfer works for you to keep your rhythm.
If your way was better than moving the feet, then everyone would be doing it already. That or we are on the cusp of you reinventing the position.
I understand every point you've made. Now I understand that you are doing what works for you at 52 with your injured arm and physical limitations, that the slower transfer works for you to keep your rhythm.
If your way was better than moving the feet, then everyone would be doing it already. That or we are on the cusp of you reinventing the position.
Where were you when you threw out all three guys in that inning. Impressive. What level of baseball?
My entire point, the entire time has been two fold.
1) It's a myth that it takes a strong arm to use this technique. Complete nontruth.
2.) This technique and not the jump pivot will produce faster pop times for weaker throwing arms. (guys in the low to mid 70's)
I don't ever expect to change great arm throwers from showcasing their guns.
But like I said earlier, if you aren't happy with your catchers throwing, there probably is a 2.0 or under pop time somewhere on your roster.
1) It's a myth that it takes a strong arm to use this technique. Complete nontruth.
2.) This technique and not the jump pivot will produce faster pop times for weaker throwing arms. (guys in the low to mid 70's)
I don't ever expect to change great arm throwers from showcasing their guns.
But like I said earlier, if you aren't happy with your catchers throwing, there probably is a 2.0 or under pop time somewhere on your roster.
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
Where were you when you threw out all three guys in that inning. Impressive. What level of baseball?
Senior year in high school.
Speaking of this, the pick move to 3B out of this technique is unsurpassed. I can't tell you how many times the runner had no idea he was being picked until the ball is in the air. That is a little late for an aggressive lead off, especially when it is a proper 3B lead off (technique wise) but maybe a step too far.
Think about a runner getting the message your going to pick him by seeing your body movements. He sees it reacts. Gets back.
How does he feel when the ball is already in the air before he gets the message?
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
I understand every point you've made. Now I understand that you are doing what works for you at 52 with your injured arm and physical limitations, that the slower transfer works for you to keep your rhythm.
Nice spin job.
I used the same technique when I wasn't injured.
I used the same technique when I started in college. 3yrs. All league one year.
I used the same technique when the coach decided to move the previous years all-conference catcher to center field to get me behind the plate.
I agree that your technique is the fastest way to pick a guy off third. Your body already is aligned to throw in that direction.
Congratulations on being all league. You certainly convey that you were a heck of a player.
Congratulations on being all league. You certainly convey that you were a heck of a player.
LINEAR
Simple question for you and not trying to be confrontational
How come you are always right and everyone else is wrong in their thinking when they question you ?
Don't you realize that there is no one way to play any of the baseball positions? If there were just one way, say yours for example since you seem to believe that no other method but yours works, then all players in every position would look the same--that isnt the case
Simple question for you and not trying to be confrontational
How come you are always right and everyone else is wrong in their thinking when they question you ?
Don't you realize that there is no one way to play any of the baseball positions? If there were just one way, say yours for example since you seem to believe that no other method but yours works, then all players in every position would look the same--that isnt the case
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
I agree that your technique is the fastest way to pick a guy off third. Your body already is aligned to throw in that direction.
Congratulations on being all league. You certainly convey that you were a heck of a player.
If you change "player" to "catcher" I might agree with you.
I was not a good hitter.
Linear, wow four pages in 2 days. I got in on this late, but I'm glad you brought up your throwing arm position as its the first thing I noticed. Us old fat guys can still get it done, can't we? Keep at it man, good stuff.
Gentleman,
Were really looking for clips of catchers,
preferably college or professional that we can get a good glimpse of. I know Linear has taken over this format but lets get back on track to where the original segment started. Those that feel Linear is correct, thats fine. I'd like feedback and video of catching coaches and players at a higher level, no disrespect here.
Were really looking for clips of catchers,
preferably college or professional that we can get a good glimpse of. I know Linear has taken over this format but lets get back on track to where the original segment started. Those that feel Linear is correct, thats fine. I'd like feedback and video of catching coaches and players at a higher level, no disrespect here.
quote:Allstar mlb catcher on the left. Some say the best ever.
This says it all for me. If I have a choice of teaching my students to imitate someone, I think I would be wise to go here. With all due respect to Linear. Keep in mind the catcher is setting up to throw with force 127'3" to second. I am sure that your release is quick and effecient and is probably a good technique for softball distances. Please understand that I do not mean this the way it will probably sound, but it is easy to be quick from a shorter distance. Burn-out played from 50 ft. changes dramatically from burn-out played at 100 ft.
Anything to cloud the issue.
You insinuate I can't throw hard from my technique. I've presented enough evidence that shows different.
You also say you want to teach a kid what the mlb allstar does. Good luck. Hope all your kids throw 85mph or better.
When you need a 2.0 catcher and only have 73mph you'll wish you knew something different.
You insinuate I can't throw hard from my technique. I've presented enough evidence that shows different.
You also say you want to teach a kid what the mlb allstar does. Good luck. Hope all your kids throw 85mph or better.
When you need a 2.0 catcher and only have 73mph you'll wish you knew something different.
You also say you want to teach a kid what the mlb allstar does.
I do, have, and will continue. We have had good success. Any technique can be hard or simple to teach depending on the coach or teacher and their ability to transfer knowledge or develop players. I see nothing difficult about teaching the "all-star" method and our catchers have not had a difficult time learning. I have been blessed with some fine students none of whome throw 85, but are consistently at the top of our league in their ability. But as I said, I am not trying to knock anyone's method. To each his own.
I do, have, and will continue. We have had good success. Any technique can be hard or simple to teach depending on the coach or teacher and their ability to transfer knowledge or develop players. I see nothing difficult about teaching the "all-star" method and our catchers have not had a difficult time learning. I have been blessed with some fine students none of whome throw 85, but are consistently at the top of our league in their ability. But as I said, I am not trying to knock anyone's method. To each his own.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:
St. Louis. Not a fastpitch hot bead.
The only pitcher that you might recognize...his name is/was Cooper. From New Zealand.
Cooper was no Michael White or Peter Meredith.
St. Louis loves their baseball. They always have & always will. The gateway to the west.
I recognize and had the fortune to play with and against the best of the best fastpitch pitchers and national teams. From Canada, USA, and New Zealand.
I am sure you have heard of
Raybestos (CT)
York Barbell (PA)
Clearwater Bombers (Fla)
Guenella Brothers (Santa Rosa CA)
Long Beach (CA)
Yet, lest you forget the best
including: Herb Dudley, Ty Stofflet & Eddie.
I ran into Eddie in Madison WI last summer,
who threw a riseball from his chair to strike out a college propect.
If you were at the ISC World Tournament last year in Appleton WI, many would say Men's Fastpitch is around and kicking.
Three kiwi's lived with me in Maryland back in the late 70's & early 80's during New Zealand's winter. Lot's of grins and road trips.
As written on my 20x20 HoF ASA plaque:
"Bear, arguably the best catcher to play in the region during 60's, 70, and 80's. Great left-handed hitter who hit for power and average. His catching skills were outstanding and had a great arm. He played the game with passion and abandon and starred on many teams. He was always an outstanding player and clutch hitter."
Very very humbling.
Michael White played with the Washington DC Men's Masters for four of the last five years (and can still bring it). Won the National Men's Masters Tournament last year.
Maryland has a kick-off Men's Fastpitch tournament in April. Been going on for maybe a dozen years. Draws 30 teams, among four brackets (Major, A, B, C)
Jerry, I don't believe you. lol
Regards
Bear
Linear,
I have been reading your posts for quiet some time now, but never fully grasped what you were trying to get across until I saw the clip. Am I amazed? No. My son's Div II college coach took a freshman catcher with a weak arm and converted him to this method. Within a couple of months this catcher had clipped 2 tenths off his time. I'm not sure that a catcher with a real strong arm could see that kind of improvement, but the method you are using can be of real benefit to the catcher with a weak arm.
Thanks for sharing the clip.
I have been reading your posts for quiet some time now, but never fully grasped what you were trying to get across until I saw the clip. Am I amazed? No. My son's Div II college coach took a freshman catcher with a weak arm and converted him to this method. Within a couple of months this catcher had clipped 2 tenths off his time. I'm not sure that a catcher with a real strong arm could see that kind of improvement, but the method you are using can be of real benefit to the catcher with a weak arm.
Thanks for sharing the clip.
Bear,
Sounds like you had a great softball career. What is it you don’t believe?
I actually had the opportunity to face Ty Stofflet when he came to Cedar Rapids (2 Ks if I recall in 2 ABs), he was one of the greatest. Seems there was a guy named Burleson (can’t remember first name, Roy maybe?) who was one of the best for awhile. Raybestos, Clearwater, Guanella Brothers, Decatur, Madison, can’t remember all the different great teams and great pitchers. Kind of remember Raybestos being the best for a long time. Did Stofflet pitch for York, seems like when I saw him he was pitching for a different team from PA.? Geez he was good and being left handed made him even tougher if anything.
There for awhile in the 60s and early 70s softball was much bigger than baseball in my home town. In our league we had Welty Way which turned into Modern Piping, there was Teleconnect which turned into King Richards, then some other name and there were several other National Caliber teams like Penn Corp, and Clear Lake. All these teams recruited nationally, Canada and of course New Zealand. Pretty much every great New Zealand pitcher either started or played here at some point.
The league had a 2 time ISC National Champion and and 2 ASA National Championship team. Unfortunately I only played when I had time because of being involved in coaching baseball at the time. But I sure did admire those great players, athletes, and the game itself. Also remember a few nights I can’t remember (if you know what I mean)! Those guys like to have FUN!
Amateur softball at that level was not very amateurish. Lots of former professional baseball players in the league. Even back in them days, top local sponsors would spend a lot of money.
The Major Open Softball games would outdraw the minor league team in town. They would have crowds of 3 to 5 thousand at the softball field. Unfortunately, slow pitch took over in our area and fast pitch kind of died out.
Eddie Feigner made the mistake of scheduling against an all star team from that league at the minor league stadium one night. Big crowd and a very embarrassing night for Eddie. His 4 man team… looked like a 4 man team that night. The very first hitter he faced hit one off the wall of the baseball stadium. Jerry Ralfs gave up one hit against the 4 man team, final score quite a few to zero. I don’t think they liked Eddie and wasn’t going to let him put on a show. Not sure he realized beforehand that he was playing against some of the best players in the country. There wasn’t any pitching from a chair that night. Years later he came back, but played a bunch of town celebrities. He was great fun to watch and amazing.
I did a quick search and found the ISC Hall of Fame list. On that list was Dick Zuccato and Jerry Ralfs and Richie Stephen all who played on that National Championship ASA team. I misspelled a few names earlier! Dick Brubaker from the same league was inducted the same year as Ty Stofflet.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I had a lot of respect for those guys. I think much of the world has no idea just how competitive that level of softball was or how good the players were. Glad to see there’s a few of you guys who have been there and do know!
Sounds like you had a great softball career. What is it you don’t believe?
I actually had the opportunity to face Ty Stofflet when he came to Cedar Rapids (2 Ks if I recall in 2 ABs), he was one of the greatest. Seems there was a guy named Burleson (can’t remember first name, Roy maybe?) who was one of the best for awhile. Raybestos, Clearwater, Guanella Brothers, Decatur, Madison, can’t remember all the different great teams and great pitchers. Kind of remember Raybestos being the best for a long time. Did Stofflet pitch for York, seems like when I saw him he was pitching for a different team from PA.? Geez he was good and being left handed made him even tougher if anything.
There for awhile in the 60s and early 70s softball was much bigger than baseball in my home town. In our league we had Welty Way which turned into Modern Piping, there was Teleconnect which turned into King Richards, then some other name and there were several other National Caliber teams like Penn Corp, and Clear Lake. All these teams recruited nationally, Canada and of course New Zealand. Pretty much every great New Zealand pitcher either started or played here at some point.
The league had a 2 time ISC National Champion and and 2 ASA National Championship team. Unfortunately I only played when I had time because of being involved in coaching baseball at the time. But I sure did admire those great players, athletes, and the game itself. Also remember a few nights I can’t remember (if you know what I mean)! Those guys like to have FUN!
Amateur softball at that level was not very amateurish. Lots of former professional baseball players in the league. Even back in them days, top local sponsors would spend a lot of money.
The Major Open Softball games would outdraw the minor league team in town. They would have crowds of 3 to 5 thousand at the softball field. Unfortunately, slow pitch took over in our area and fast pitch kind of died out.
Eddie Feigner made the mistake of scheduling against an all star team from that league at the minor league stadium one night. Big crowd and a very embarrassing night for Eddie. His 4 man team… looked like a 4 man team that night. The very first hitter he faced hit one off the wall of the baseball stadium. Jerry Ralfs gave up one hit against the 4 man team, final score quite a few to zero. I don’t think they liked Eddie and wasn’t going to let him put on a show. Not sure he realized beforehand that he was playing against some of the best players in the country. There wasn’t any pitching from a chair that night. Years later he came back, but played a bunch of town celebrities. He was great fun to watch and amazing.
I did a quick search and found the ISC Hall of Fame list. On that list was Dick Zuccato and Jerry Ralfs and Richie Stephen all who played on that National Championship ASA team. I misspelled a few names earlier! Dick Brubaker from the same league was inducted the same year as Ty Stofflet.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I had a lot of respect for those guys. I think much of the world has no idea just how competitive that level of softball was or how good the players were. Glad to see there’s a few of you guys who have been there and do know!
quote:Originally posted by RHSfan:
Linear,
I have been reading your posts for quiet some time now, but never fully grasped what you were trying to get across until I saw the clip. Am I amazed? No. My son's Div II college coach took a freshman catcher with a weak arm and converted him to this method. Within a couple of months this catcher had clipped 2 tenths off his time. I'm not sure that a catcher with a real strong arm could see that kind of improvement, but the method you are using can be of real benefit to the catcher with a weak arm.
Thanks for sharing the clip.
Thank you. I knew there was something good in Tennessee.
PG
I saw the King and his Court at the minor league stadium in Cedar Rapids. I'm guessing 1968-1969?
Where did all the critics go?
I need an argument.
I need an argument.
You guys hate that video evidence don't you?
I know B25 does.
I know B25 does.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:
You guys hate that video evidence don't you?
I know B25 does.
NOT AT ALL! I guess you thought we argued on this. I missed it. I give you a lot of credit for posting it. I do have one question/observation since you brought it up. Where is the plate? I know it sounds technical but that plate is important when showing where that lead foot lands. BTW, other than the upper body movement of taking the glove to chin-nose-ear, I like the clip. You won't get much argument out of me today. Sorry!
Linear, I apologize, I didn't post on this at all. Noticed CoachBlu25 did. Guess I'm not losing my marbles after all.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:
Where did all the critics go?
I need an argument.
No arguments from me...My Sophmore son is exactly who you are aiming this at..(athletic, but still growing..not as strong armed as he will be in a year or two) But he's been taught by many to throw like the pro clip above.. At first he was "no way" on your description...but your clip got him to at least consider it. We'll see ...we start here on 2/27.
We've got action now. Two posters in a half hour.
It's kind of dead around here.
Would just like to "get after it" a little. Going to be gone most of the weekend.
Missouri State 9-Ball Championship in Columbia.
If you want to learn to play pool I have a deeper "profile". Since profiles are so important to everyone here.
It's kind of dead around here.
Would just like to "get after it" a little. Going to be gone most of the weekend.
Missouri State 9-Ball Championship in Columbia.
If you want to learn to play pool I have a deeper "profile". Since profiles are so important to everyone here.
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
...Where is the plate?...
The plate?.....it's in the dishwasher.....and I licked it clean. Can't you tell?
quote:Originally posted by Linear:
Where did all the critics go?
I need an argument.
LOL
Linear,
As I said before - very brave to post your stuff. Bravo!!!
And pretty good quickness as well - IMO.
However - even at age 48 - I would run like a wild dog on you - and steal every one.
P.S. Get something on that floor so you dont slide. You are going to hurt yourself.
Post....The windows open.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:
We've got action now. Two posters in a half hour.
It's kind of dead around here.
Would just like to "get after it" a little. Going to be gone most of the weekend.
Missouri State 9-Ball Championship in Columbia.
If you want to learn to play pool I have a deeper "profile". Since profiles are so important to everyone here.
Good luck! I once was a pool champ as well. Nothing on the lines you are talking about. Small bars and I was very young. Used to play about 3 hours a day. Again, nothing like you are talking about. I put my cue up when my Uncle was left on a dock in Memphis, Tennessee for "hustling." Haven't used it since. I still have it but haven't played in over 25 years. Old kind and since I was small, major counterweight on the end which also served as a weapon. Ironically, as much as I loved it back then, I don't miss it at all.
Well enough on past glory. Again, GOOD LUCK!
