If there was ever an example of a fish rotting from the head, this is it:
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I dont think its anyones fault, hard place to recruit. Coaches can't recruit with a losing record. The nrew facilities will help.
Last year they let poach Robert Woodard go, who is the pitching coach for UNC. In this conference you have to recruit players to win, regardless of how good you are.
"Last year they let poach Robert Woodard go, who is the pitching coach for UNC."
In actuality, no greater degree of mutuality has ever been present at the time of a departure.
Robert has done an awesome job at UNC, had nothing to do with his ability.
Once again in this conference, you have to have a winning percentage, attend your conference championship and make a regional.
But you knew that.
Well, my 2017 catcher is going to VT and plans on trying to walk-on... But club is a more likely fit. VT is an outstanding D1 school academically and is beautiful, I'm an alum and biased of course. I'd say 4 losing seasons in a row seems like he was given a fair chance and a new direction is in order. Good luck to Coach Mason and VT going forward.
TPM posted:I dont think its anyones fault, hard place to recruit.
There were many very, very good players within the Commonwealth that were ignored by the program, and the blame can be squarely placed on the head of the program. Yes, a hard place to recruit, but they blew it with more than a few players.
And it didn't help that he would act as an obstacle to pro scouts, to the point where they just didn't bother. Across the board with all 30 teams.
So yes, this clearly was his fault. And he's living with the consequences of his actions.
Batty67: within the grapevine there's word of an open tryout, so you may want to get your 2017 involved.
Program has been DOA since Hughes left. This was probably a year or two too late. Hard to recruit? I think that is an excuse. It's hard to recruit good kids when you program is dying. I'd say WVU is a hard place to recruit. Kentucky, relative to their competition as well. They have new coaches and are thriving.
This will be a good job for somebody.
Don't all D1 schools have more-or-less open tryouts at some point? I expect the number of players that make the team that route vary from zero to few. I'm sure my son will be at the tryouts, for the experience if nothing else.
VT is an ACC school and is great academically, and has a beautiful campus. I expect under new leadership and RC, it will start to turn around pretty quickly...but a winning culture takes years to establish and maintain.
One name to keep an eye on for the @VT_Baseball job is former #Tennessee coach Dave Serrano. Very strong interest there. #Hokies #Vols
— Kendall Rogers (@KendallRogersD1) May 21, 2017
joemktg posted:TPM posted:I dont think its anyones fault, hard place to recruit.
There were many very, very good players within the Commonwealth that were ignored by the program, and the blame can be squarely placed on the head of the program. Yes, a hard place to recruit, but they blew it with more than a few players.
Exactly joemktg....and this is true not only of this coach but the previous regime as well. New recruiting blood and a new approach are needed badly. There is a lot of talent leaving the Commonwealth to play elsewhere. Personally, I have a lot of confidence in the new AD. He's made some recent changes that have worked out well.
It was a freaking miracle they kept Mason for the 2017 season. Anybody who follows Hokie baseball knew this was coming and coming quickly.
Batty67 - best of luck to your son. My middle son just graduated. VT was a awesome experience for my son and family. We are going to miss visiting him.
Hard to believe chasing 8th and 9th graders didn't workout for him.
So, I was talking to my son the other day and threw a scenario at him to try to stimulate his decision making processes for this fall. I expect he will get some interest and just wanted to see what kind of college experience he desires:
Scenario was: You have three offers. One from a D1 program in a D1 Power 5 conference with a losing record for the past few years, one from a small D1 school in a non-Power 5 conference that performs well in their conference and makes the CWS Regionals occasionally, and a top D2 program. What experience is most appealing?
His answer didn't surprise me. He was attracted to the Power-5 conference program based on the baseball facilities, level of competition and potential to be a player who helps to turn the program around. The education at the Power-5 school will be equal to most other schools.
So I guess my point is, at least with my son, a program doesn't have to be a perennial winner to get his attention for baseball, but it has to match his other expectations as well. I can't imagine VT will have a hard time recruiting quality players considering the educations gained there, the conference, the entire college experience.
SDR - that reminds me of the conversations my 2017 and I had along the way. Sometimes we still have them - we were at a Pac12 game recently between two great programs and I pointed at the line of bench guys on the dugout rail and asked, would you want to be one of those guys, or starting at Suchandsuch U?
One thought I've had is that sometimes you can predict a perennial loser (or a perennial winner) is going to continue that way for the foreseeable future due to a variety of factors. And if losing isn't baked into the program, why not be one of the guys who turns it around? I don't think there is any reason to believe that VT can't turn around. Great school, great campus, and loyal alums.
SanDiegoRealist posted:So, I was talking to my son the other day and threw a scenario at him to try to stimulate his decision making processes for this fall. I expect he will get some interest and just wanted to see what kind of college experience he desires:
Scenario was: You have three offers. One from a D1 program in a D1 Power 5 conference with a losing record for the past few years, one from a small D1 school in a non-Power 5 conference that performs well in their conference and makes the CWS Regionals occasionally, and a top D2 program. What experience is most appealing?
His answer didn't surprise me. He was attracted to the Power-5 conference program based on the baseball facilities, level of competition and potential to be a player who helps to turn the program around. The education at the Power-5 school will be equal to most other schools.
So I guess my point is, at least with my son, a program doesn't have to be a perennial winner to get his attention for baseball, but it has to match his other expectations as well. I can't imagine VT will have a hard time recruiting quality players considering the educations gained there, the conference, the entire college experience.
Good point, but one thing to factor in -- which I don't think kids would usually do in their analysis -- is that the Power 5 coach with a losing record over the past few years is likely to be fired soon. Or is at least at risk of it. And that could totally change the kid's experience.
2019 Dad said:
Good point, but one thing to factor in -- which I don't think kids would usually do in their analysis -- is that the Power 5 coach with a losing record over the past few years is likely to be fired soon. Or is at least at risk of it. And that could totally change the kid's experience.
That is true. And if a kid was verballed by fired coach, he might find himself looking for a new home come NLI time if the new regime chooses not to honor the fired coaches commits, as seems to happen often.
JCG posted:2019 Dad said:
Good point, but one thing to factor in -- which I don't think kids would usually do in their analysis -- is that the Power 5 coach with a losing record over the past few years is likely to be fired soon. Or is at least at risk of it. And that could totally change the kid's experience.
That is true. And if a kid was verballed by fired coach, he might find himself looking for a new home come NLI time if the new regime chooses not to honor the fired coaches commits, as seems to happen often.
Which is why players need to a) be careful who they verbal with and perform due diligence and b) perhaps collect a couple of offers and verbal closer to the NLI early signing period in order to alleviate this.
JCG posted:2019 Dad said:
Good point, but one thing to factor in -- which I don't think kids would usually do in their analysis -- is that the Power 5 coach with a losing record over the past few years is likely to be fired soon. Or is at least at risk of it. And that could totally change the kid's experience.
That is true. And if a kid was verballed by fired coach, he might find himself looking for a new home come NLI time if the new regime chooses not to honor the fired coaches commits, as seems to happen often.
Similar situation happened to a family friend. Pac XII school recruited him, signed him, and brought him in for summer school prior to Freshman Season. During that summer, the HC got fired. New coach is hired. After Fall Practice, new HC told him he wasn't going to be playing there, so kid transferred to a JC at the end of the semester.
old_school posted:Hard to believe chasing 8th and 9th graders didn't workout for him.
That is an interesting comment. How much of that rings true? Were a majority of players at that school "signed" in 8th or 9th grade? What percentage of them were busts or de-commits? Was that really a major reason why the coach wasn't as successful as he could have been? Sincerely asking
SanDiegoRealist posted:I can't imagine VT will have a hard time recruiting quality players considering the educations gained there, the conference, the entire college experience.
Not that VT had a hard time recruiting players, but that VT's recruiting prowess stinks...esp. with regards to players in his backyard. Their outreach was less than competitive.
joemktg posted:SanDiegoRealist posted:I can't imagine VT will have a hard time recruiting quality players considering the educations gained there, the conference, the entire college experience.
Not that VT had a hard time recruiting players, but that VT's recruiting prowess stinks...esp. with regards to players in his backyard. Their outreach was less than competitive.
my son is a 2017, western pa. Va tech did recruit him but it was a convoluted process, due mainly, I think to recent turnover. they were on him early, then coach K left, then nothing, then re-entered process aggressively right as he was making decision to go elsewhere and it was already too late. I'm sure coaching churn has been part of the issue.
joemktg posted:One name to keep an eye on for the @VT_Baseball job is former #Tennessee coach Dave Serrano. Very strong interest there. #Hokies #Vols
— Kendall Rogers (@KendallRogersD1) May 21, 2017
More of Rogers' nonsense. He couldn't win at Tennessee. No reason to expect him to win at an academically oriented school like VT.
SanDiegoRealist posted:JCG posted:2019 Dad said:
Good point, but one thing to factor in -- which I don't think kids would usually do in their analysis -- is that the Power 5 coach with a losing record over the past few years is likely to be fired soon. Or is at least at risk of it. And that could totally change the kid's experience.
That is true. And if a kid was verballed by fired coach, he might find himself looking for a new home come NLI time if the new regime chooses not to honor the fired coaches commits, as seems to happen often.
Which is why players need to a) be careful who they verbal with and perform due diligence and b) perhaps collect a couple of offers and verbal closer to the NLI early signing period in order to alleviate this.
SanDiegoRealist,
Not sure where your son is in the recruiting process, but in my son's experience, once my son committed, the recruiting, emails, calls, stopped. Just...like....that. It is a very small baseball world and coaches talk. Not sure he could have "gathered several offers" at the tight end near the NLI signing period as a position player* and still received a baseball scholly. The money is committed early, as well as good players.
Maybe in several weeks I will share our VT story. It winds up being a doozie. Let's just say we are very grateful he dodged a bullet, but he didn't know it at the time.
But I cannot stress enough, the baseball/recruiting world is very small.
(*there may be an exception for the very talented late bloomer LHP throwing 90.)
We are just entering rising Junior summer, Keewart, and I actually think you are correct, that would be pretty late in the recruiting process to have multiple offers without having already committed to someone unless you are exactly like you said, a late bloomer or something else happens in your recruitment that puts you back on the market and you are attractive to multiple schools.
keewart posted:SanDiegoRealist posted:JCG posted:2019 Dad said:
Good point, but one thing to factor in -- which I don't think kids would usually do in their analysis -- is that the Power 5 coach with a losing record over the past few years is likely to be fired soon. Or is at least at risk of it. And that could totally change the kid's experience.
That is true. And if a kid was verballed by fired coach, he might find himself looking for a new home come NLI time if the new regime chooses not to honor the fired coaches commits, as seems to happen often.
Which is why players need to a) be careful who they verbal with and perform due diligence and b) perhaps collect a couple of offers and verbal closer to the NLI early signing period in order to alleviate this.
SanDiegoRealist,
Not sure where your son is in the recruiting process, but in my son's experience, once my son committed, the recruiting, emails, calls, stopped. Just...like....that. It is a very small baseball world and coaches talk. Not sure he could have "gathered several offers" at the tight end near the NLI signing period as a position player* and still received a baseball scholly. The money is committed early, as well as good players.
Maybe in several weeks I will share our VT story. It winds up being a doozie. Let's just say we are very grateful he dodged a bullet, but he didn't know it at the time.
But I cannot stress enough, the baseball/recruiting world is very small.
(*there may be an exception for the very talented late bloomer LHP throwing 90.)
This was Ryan's experience as well. Once committed, it was over for him...
"dodged a bullet" maybe, "hit by another"? Hopefully not, but you never really know for a few years.
As my son progressed I found out the little he and I really knew about all these programs he was interested in as a HS senior (My son was a 4-2-4) He found out a lot more about programs and did a 180 on many perceptions each year he played. Each year he played past HS he played with guys from other schools, talked to scouts and other coaches and saw what some coaches or didn't do and what was important to them. As an aside you need to be weary of comments from disgruntled parents and players in search of PT/Love.
My son really liked playing at VT back in the day. My son didn't know Mason that well but said he liked him. I hope things work out for him.
http://usatodayhss.com/2017/ka...-louisville-baseball
Louisville is apparently going in the sewer with Virginia and MSU....We should have a pool for the first college to start recruiting Dreams Park. The NCAA, the college Presidents and the various Boards of Trustees are scum for allowing this.
Kid is a stud, good for him.
Middle school committments are just what they are, commitments.
I always suggest that people should actually worry about their own players, not someone elses.
TPM posted:Kid is a stud, good for him.
Middle school committments are just what they are, commitments.
I always suggest that people should actually worry about their own players, not someone elses.
if the same college coach drove a van with a candy sign people would call the police...
lrg37 posted:Program has been DOA since Hughes left. This was probably a year or two too late. Hard to recruit? I think that is an excuse. It's hard to recruit good kids when you program is dying. I'd say WVU is a hard place to recruit. Kentucky, relative to their competition as well. They have new coaches and are thriving.
This will be a good job for somebody.
I couldn't agree with you more. I've heard the "hard place to recruit" from coaches themselves. The schools in northern climates say that so often but explain Kent State, Stoneybrook, and I'll throw KY and Louisville into that mix. VA has a lot of talent and it will be a great job for a young energetic coach.
SanDiegoRealist posted:So, I was talking to my son the other day and threw a scenario at him to try to stimulate his decision making processes for this fall. I expect he will get some interest and just wanted to see what kind of college experience he desires:
Scenario was: You have three offers. One from a D1 program in a D1 Power 5 conference with a losing record for the past few years, one from a small D1 school in a non-Power 5 conference that performs well in their conference and makes the CWS Regionals occasionally, and a top D2 program. What experience is most appealing?
His answer didn't surprise me. He was attracted to the Power-5 conference program based on the baseball facilities, level of competition and potential to be a player who helps to turn the program around. The education at the Power-5 school will be equal to most other schools.
So I guess my point is, at least with my son, a program doesn't have to be a perennial winner to get his attention for baseball, but it has to match his other expectations as well. I can't imagine VT will have a hard time recruiting quality players considering the educations gained there, the conference, the entire college experience.
I would advise your son to rethink his answer. Schools with losing records = coaches who on the bubble. A coach at risk is less likely to be patient with his players. Depending how long they've been losing, you son may have only one year with the coach who made the offer.
My son and my friend's son are two great examples. My friend's son went to the school with the losing record while my son went a school with a winning record (same Power 5 conf). Both had disappointing season but my son's season was even more disappointing. His son is the one who is being asked to leave. He was told they need to win now and are clearing the roster for JUCO's. The morale of the story is that failure too often translates into desperation. Why get yourself into that?
"I would advise your son to rethink his answer. Schools with losing records = coaches who on the bubble. A coach at risk is less likely to be patient with his players. Depending how long they've been losing, you son may have only one year with the coach who made the offer"
A coach with a bench of talented players certainly has options and doesn't always have to play the best player. An "at risk" coach is going to play the best player almost no matter what.
No matter the success of the program, players who don't perform maybe shown the door at anytime or just left on the bench. These guys are competing everyday no matter the program status. Sometimes you can never know the entire story, especially when it comes to freshman, but many times the coach is doing the player a favor by telling him he should move on if he wants to keep playing. Sometimes the coaches are wrong. I feel its more of a crap shoot with projecting HS position players.
IMHO a position player looking to go to the next level is looking for a program offering an opportunity to play every game in a competitive league (ACC, P12, SEC etc) where he can show that he can hit advanced pitching and the coach envisions a significant role for the player.
My son choose a school with a horrible record over an annual CWS participant due to the opportunity to play every game against excellent ACC pitching. Of course if he didn't perform he wouldn't have played at either school, he just got more opportunities at the school with the "seemingly" shorter bench.
old_school posted:TPM posted:Kid is a stud, good for him.
Middle school committments are just what they are, commitments.
I always suggest that people should actually worry about their own players, not someone elses.
if the same college coach drove a van with a candy sign people would call the police...
You seem to be placing all of the blame on the coaches, however it's the parent who drives the bus. There is plenty of blame to go around, however, why don't people just worry about what they can control, not someone else's ride.
JMO
TPM posted:old_school posted:TPM posted:Kid is a stud, good for him.
Middle school committments are just what they are, commitments.
I always suggest that people should actually worry about their own players, not someone elses.
if the same college coach drove a van with a candy sign people would call the police...
You seem to be placing all of the game on the coaches, however it's the parent who drives the bus. There is plenty of blame to go around, however, why don't people just worry about what they can control, not someone else's ride.
JMO
It is the coach's!
If the coach didn't extend an offer, would the kid (or the parents in your example) be able to commit? No.....
DesertDuck posted:TPM posted:old_school posted:TPM posted:Kid is a stud, good for him.
Middle school committments are just what they are, commitments.
I always suggest that people should actually worry about their own players, not someone elses.
if the same college coach drove a van with a candy sign people would call the police...
You seem to be placing all of the game on the coaches, however it's the parent who drives the bus. There is plenty of blame to go around, however, why don't people just worry about what they can control, not someone else's ride.
JMO
It is the coach's!
If the coach didn't extend an offer, would the kid (or the parents in your example) be able to commit? No.....
Gotta agree here with Desert Duck...8th grade kids don't often pursue coaches, it's the other way around. 100% of this is on the coach, not the player or family.
Lock them up before someone else gets them to commit, then see how they develop. Honestly, it would be interesting to see metric on how many "ultra early" commits actually end up at those programs.
I used to be on the other side of this argument.
I would like to see more regulation in place to eliminate recruiting before HS years, preferably until at least completion of 9th grade. That said, aside from some restrictions, there are no current rules against it. So, every school that has a chance to draw the top talent will make every effort to get a leg up on the competition to do so. Much of the livelihood of these coaches is dependent on the ability to attract and sign these top recruits. In many ways, it is a race. While it seems silly at times, how is it wrong, really?
Those top recruits are actually in a better position to say no until they reach a certain age than the schools are not to pursue them. If the kid waits, he will most likely still have plenty of offers to choose from. If he gets hurt or doesn't progress as expected, neither the school he signed with nor any other will have as much interest so it doesn't matter in that regard. And, really, it's not like the school is going to completely stop recruiting for his position anyway. Under the current rules, it only makes sense for the school/coaches to pursue top talent as soon as they identify it. Once in a great while, that top talent is glaring in the form of an 8th grader.
Unfortunately, there are also no rules that prevent the school from backing out in a variety of ways. The displeasure should be directed to the rules makers, not the coaches who must win out against their competitors within the current set of rules.
I think you guys are assuming something I didnt say.
All a parent has to say is "no thank you, he isnt ready to committ just now".
And there are plenty who do just that.
TPM posted:I think you guys are assuming something I didnt say.
All a parent has to say is "no thank you, he isnt ready to committ just now".
And there are plenty who do just that.
Nah.....I think you are missing 'the point' entirely. 
Back to the great Commonwealth...
http://www.hokiesports.com/pr/recaps/20170523aaa.html
A new HC will walk into an excellent situation with a smart AD and an overall athletic program on the rise.
I'd like to see Coach Stiffler (VCU) get a crack at it. Sorta reminds me of Monte Lee going to Clemson from CofC. Coach Stiffler knows the VA market well, is an excellent coach, and has run an excellent program in the competitive A10.
TPM posted:old_school posted:TPM posted:Kid is a stud, good for him.
Middle school committments are just what they are, commitments.
I always suggest that people should actually worry about their own players, not someone elses.
if the same college coach drove a van with a candy sign people would call the police...
You seem to be placing all of the blame on the coaches, however it's the parent who drives the bus. There is plenty of blame to go around, however, why don't people just worry about what they can control, not someone else's ride.
JMO
Incorrect, I blame the administrators, college presidents, college trustee boards and the NCAA first, coaches are gonna coach/recruit and I get that. it is their job and they are fighting on the front lines...I probably would the same and hate it.
I believe it is controllable but at this time the folks mentioned above are the ones who need to look in the mirror.
I understand, not a fan of the process, however, as a parent one has a responsibility to decide what is best for their player. I would not allow my son to make that decision, because I understand that a very big reason coaches are coming after him to commit so early is because they dont want him to commit to anyone else.