<disconnected cell phone>
Hey guys! She so thrilled I'm on the HGH she speechless!
The hearing today was a waste of time and money. All it did was paint the government into a corner they can't get out of.
Did they hurt Clemens and his credibility? Yes they did.
Did they hurt McNamee and his credibility? Yes they did.
You could tell which Congressman was for Clemons, who was for McNamee and which had no idea who to believe - doesn't that pretty much represent the entire country? There is a large part of the country who believes Clemens, large part who believes McNamee and large group who have no idea who to believe. Look at the posts in here - they fall into those groups as well.
The hearing was a waste because I don't think it was a time for them to bring in their personal opinions - the guy from Indiana had no right calling out McNamee and the chairman was out of line apologizing to McNamee for the criticisms towards his character. The purpose is to find out information which they really didn't do.
Now here is where they are in trouble - Mitchell said to NOT go after anyone. Let the past be in the past and fix the future. Great advice but Clemons filed the libel suit and Congress stepped in when they should have stayed out.
It's obvious one of them is lying - doesn't matter which one - and they have lied to Congress. The entire country knows one of them lied to Congress. Now do they let it go and not file perjury charges or do they try to find someone guilty? There were six FBI and IRS agents there today trying to determine what to do.
If they file perjury charges they will lose. Doesn't matter who they file against - Clemons or McNamee - they can't prove either one is lying. Remember to get a conviction it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. So we are looking at around 2/3 of the jury saying guilty. It's not going to happen. The jury will be split down the middle just like we are in here and in the rest of the country. Clemons still has the celebrity card. Although he took a hit today there are still fans out there and some will be in the jury box.
If charges are filed the Justice Department will file against Clemons because McNamee is their boy. Clemons has the most to lose here and they can control McNamee.
If the Justice Department doesn't file charges now they lose face because they are letting a liar get away scotfree with no challenge. If the government wants to save face here they have to file charges or they look bad. It will create a situation where other people will find it easier to lie to Congress during hearings.
There is no winner here and baseball is the biggest loser. The past is the past and you cannot change it. Our records are tainted because the people in charge let it be. But this is also becoming a bigger deal than it should be. Fix the problem and move on.
Rodney Harrison was suspended several games for testing positive for steroids. Is he before Congress? Is Roger Goddall or Paul Tagliabue in front of Congress (for this and not Spygate - don't get me started on this one)?
Did they hurt Clemens and his credibility? Yes they did.
Did they hurt McNamee and his credibility? Yes they did.
You could tell which Congressman was for Clemons, who was for McNamee and which had no idea who to believe - doesn't that pretty much represent the entire country? There is a large part of the country who believes Clemens, large part who believes McNamee and large group who have no idea who to believe. Look at the posts in here - they fall into those groups as well.
The hearing was a waste because I don't think it was a time for them to bring in their personal opinions - the guy from Indiana had no right calling out McNamee and the chairman was out of line apologizing to McNamee for the criticisms towards his character. The purpose is to find out information which they really didn't do.
Now here is where they are in trouble - Mitchell said to NOT go after anyone. Let the past be in the past and fix the future. Great advice but Clemons filed the libel suit and Congress stepped in when they should have stayed out.
It's obvious one of them is lying - doesn't matter which one - and they have lied to Congress. The entire country knows one of them lied to Congress. Now do they let it go and not file perjury charges or do they try to find someone guilty? There were six FBI and IRS agents there today trying to determine what to do.
If they file perjury charges they will lose. Doesn't matter who they file against - Clemons or McNamee - they can't prove either one is lying. Remember to get a conviction it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. So we are looking at around 2/3 of the jury saying guilty. It's not going to happen. The jury will be split down the middle just like we are in here and in the rest of the country. Clemons still has the celebrity card. Although he took a hit today there are still fans out there and some will be in the jury box.
If charges are filed the Justice Department will file against Clemons because McNamee is their boy. Clemons has the most to lose here and they can control McNamee.
If the Justice Department doesn't file charges now they lose face because they are letting a liar get away scotfree with no challenge. If the government wants to save face here they have to file charges or they look bad. It will create a situation where other people will find it easier to lie to Congress during hearings.
There is no winner here and baseball is the biggest loser. The past is the past and you cannot change it. Our records are tainted because the people in charge let it be. But this is also becoming a bigger deal than it should be. Fix the problem and move on.
Rodney Harrison was suspended several games for testing positive for steroids. Is he before Congress? Is Roger Goddall or Paul Tagliabue in front of Congress (for this and not Spygate - don't get me started on this one)?
I've traveled a convoluted road on this issue.
When I first saw the "Bash Brothers" I was convinced that they were doing steroids.....as far back as the mid- eighties.
Others of their company looked similarly "enhanced".
Nobody seemed to care.
Next came the freak show of the later 90's. The McGuire-Sosa show and then Bary Bonds. The increase in production streched credulity and Bonds, being the likable guy he is bought the public scrutiny that eventually jaded everyone.
In the mean time the seats are filled...money coming in, popularity on the rise, the owners and the management all but embraced the new standards of performance. In doing so they set the standard for the profession and compelled large numbers of the players to keep up.
Now I always have admired Clemens' work ethic. In many ways he took no short cuts. But did he fall into temptation by what had become a pervasive aspect of the pro game?
Bonds too is a gifted athlete, and a hard worker but his legacy is forever tainted by the steps he took to get ahead...or, maybe in his own mind to keep up.
The greatest blame goes, not to the athletes that strived to compete in the culture of the game they inherited, but to those whose negligence in oversite made it happen.
I am now truly sad for Roger, McGuire and even, dare I say it, Bonds.
Rollerman
it was on espn that pettites dad got the hgh for him. i don't know if this is a fact,if it is it's a sad day for that family. sad day for quite a few family's. the things we do for money.............
Bonds is...a liar.
McNamee is... a liar.
Clemens is... a liar.
For all the money two of these three have, and all the legal counsel all three seem to have, they miss a big truism: "If you're explaining, you're losing".
Credible folks don't have to explain what they meant by what they said, or that somebody "misheard" or "misremembered" (send the Rocket to an english class). Clemens came off as a pathetic liar. A guy sticks a needle in his wife's rear and he doesn't know it?? And they never discussed it? A show of hands please, how many married folks believe that? Oh, Mr. Bonds, put your hand down, I meant faithfully married, sorry.
Bonds talked (lied) himself into a corner and the lesson was apparently lost on the Rocket as he has done the same thing. Game over.
Pettitte cheated, and admitted it only when hit in the head with the Mitchell report, but better late than never. (See Giambi, Jason).
Barry and the Rocket are where they belong, on the outside looking in. Their chance to fess up and be forgiven (see Pettitte, Andy) passed them by long ago.
McNamee is... a liar.
Clemens is... a liar.
For all the money two of these three have, and all the legal counsel all three seem to have, they miss a big truism: "If you're explaining, you're losing".
Credible folks don't have to explain what they meant by what they said, or that somebody "misheard" or "misremembered" (send the Rocket to an english class). Clemens came off as a pathetic liar. A guy sticks a needle in his wife's rear and he doesn't know it?? And they never discussed it? A show of hands please, how many married folks believe that? Oh, Mr. Bonds, put your hand down, I meant faithfully married, sorry.
Bonds talked (lied) himself into a corner and the lesson was apparently lost on the Rocket as he has done the same thing. Game over.
Pettitte cheated, and admitted it only when hit in the head with the Mitchell report, but better late than never. (See Giambi, Jason).
Barry and the Rocket are where they belong, on the outside looking in. Their chance to fess up and be forgiven (see Pettitte, Andy) passed them by long ago.
I probably wouldn't have watched if hubby hadn't had it on, but my take is that Mc is a scumbag, but I think he's telling the truth about injecting players and he probably has the forensic proof. He was careful about keeping it because he knew what was happening was wrong and he didn't want to go down alone when the poop hit the fan. Hey, his cop training came in handy afterall. He's looking to salvage his freedom and reverse the damage done by his initial cover-up lies.
Clem's pants are seriously on fire--what a liar, liar. I truly understand the strong desire to save face, but a sudden about-face in career at the age of 35 looks very suspicious. He just suddenly hit his stride at what appeared to be the end of his career? Lying to congress is a very bad move if you want your freedom. (Talk to Vick about the consequences of lying under oath.) He's already lied, so now he's not going to back down until they charge him with perjury. Even then I suspect he'll kick and scream his way to trial and then to jail.
I think those who've gone ahead and told the truth will be demonized and shunned for revealing the "secret" but that's better than meaningless cover-ups, lame excuses, and eventual jail time for being a liar. Roids were obviously a part of the game, acceptable among players. Why not just say you got caught up in the wrong stuff, sorry, and move on and change what is NOW acceptable? I'll be just as happy to watch a game that's "clean" as I was to watch a collection of super human roid-monsters.
IMO: Friends don't make friends commit perjury. Friends don't expect friends to face jail-time in order to cover your butt and preserve the value of your signed memorabilia and speaking fee. It takes a lot of courage to tell the truth, especially knowing you'll likely become a pariah. I respect that level of courage more than I respect misplaced indignation.
Clem's pants are seriously on fire--what a liar, liar. I truly understand the strong desire to save face, but a sudden about-face in career at the age of 35 looks very suspicious. He just suddenly hit his stride at what appeared to be the end of his career? Lying to congress is a very bad move if you want your freedom. (Talk to Vick about the consequences of lying under oath.) He's already lied, so now he's not going to back down until they charge him with perjury. Even then I suspect he'll kick and scream his way to trial and then to jail.
I think those who've gone ahead and told the truth will be demonized and shunned for revealing the "secret" but that's better than meaningless cover-ups, lame excuses, and eventual jail time for being a liar. Roids were obviously a part of the game, acceptable among players. Why not just say you got caught up in the wrong stuff, sorry, and move on and change what is NOW acceptable? I'll be just as happy to watch a game that's "clean" as I was to watch a collection of super human roid-monsters.
IMO: Friends don't make friends commit perjury. Friends don't expect friends to face jail-time in order to cover your butt and preserve the value of your signed memorabilia and speaking fee. It takes a lot of courage to tell the truth, especially knowing you'll likely become a pariah. I respect that level of courage more than I respect misplaced indignation.
If Roger was my buddy I think I'd have to say, "Well Rog, you gotta admit it's not a very far leap for us to believe you took the ped's... you'll take Vioxx like Skittles, you'll take Lydocain and B-12 in order to compete; that in itself doesn't mean you'd take the PED's, but that coupled with the evidence presented by your enemy and friend tells me you think I'm pretty naive and I'll believe you because you have a good fastball I guess."
Good post.
Mitchell asked that no player mentioned be subject to legal action, which I hope the Feds respect. We don't need all of this, it's basically out in the open and let's move forward.
As far as Clemens, he wanted the court of public opinion to decide, and it didn't go well. If I was him, basically at this point, it's time to retire, go out and play golf, and let the chips fall where they may as far as his HOF futuer is concerned.
Mitchell asked that no player mentioned be subject to legal action, which I hope the Feds respect. We don't need all of this, it's basically out in the open and let's move forward.
As far as Clemens, he wanted the court of public opinion to decide, and it didn't go well. If I was him, basically at this point, it's time to retire, go out and play golf, and let the chips fall where they may as far as his HOF futuer is concerned.
The business model for dealing with the situation was trademarked by Pettitte.
"I did a dumb thing. I'm sorry."
End of story.
If he truly doesn't give a rats hind quarters about HOF as he says, he would have done the same. Instead, he jumped in a hole with a shovel and buried himself.
"I did a dumb thing. I'm sorry."
End of story.
If he truly doesn't give a rats hind quarters about HOF as he says, he would have done the same. Instead, he jumped in a hole with a shovel and buried himself.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
"I did a dumb thing. I'm sorry."
I can accept that explanation from anyone because they owned up.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
"I did a dumb thing. I'm sorry."
I can accept that explanation from anyone because they owned up.
Wait a minute ... am I to understand that apologies are now acceptable here?
All kidding aside, I just think this is such a sad commentary on our favorite game, as well as our society and the 'win at any cost' attitudes so many bear now. Money talks, and from my perspective, it speaks too loud and has taken a lot away from the game itself. (NOTE TO ALL: Remind me of that statement if/when my kid ever signs a big contract
I am sorry to say that although I have always admired Clemens' abilities on the mound, I found his testimony a bit difficult to believe yesterday, even tho I also believe McNamee was lying as well. Sad sad indeed, but I still do not think Congress should be involved at this level when so many things are falling apart in our country. I would much rather have seen the $$$$ spent on these hearings going to help disabled vets or the starving children in Appalachia. Waste of my tax dollars from my perspective.
I have no issue with any $$ spent on the Mitchell report, the following congressional drama was because Roger wanted to clear himself.
Make him pay?
I am glad you got the apology part. Apologizing is taking ownership, whether you feel the need or not, says alot about a person, IMO.
Make him pay?
I am glad you got the apology part. Apologizing is taking ownership, whether you feel the need or not, says alot about a person, IMO.
DAD04
Keep posting as you do--your true colors are showing
Keep posting as you do--your true colors are showing
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
... the following congressional drama was because Roger wanted to clear himself.
I hear ya !
quote:Make him pay?
Now that's an idea ...
things keep bugging me. do you think roger clemens ever paid for golf ? yet he had a reciept from 98. i don't even have the same clubs from 98. regardless of how this plays out he hasn't got to worry about money,or fame. just isn't well thought of for a while.
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
things keep bugging me. do you think roger clemens ever paid for golf ? yet he had a reciept from 98. i don't even have the same clubs from 98. regardless of how this plays out he hasn't got to worry about money,or fame. just isn't well thought of for a while.
That's a good point and it also leads me to this that these people are trying to remember what happened 10 years ago. I am lucky if I remember what I did last week.
gee I'd like to follow suit, but I have a MGD budgetquote:by RJM: Hey guys! She so thrilled I'm on the HGH she speechless!
(aka - Miller Genuine Draft)
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
things keep bugging me. do you think roger clemens ever paid for golf ? yet he had a reciept from 98. i don't even have the same clubs from 98. regardless of how this plays out he hasn't got to worry about money,or fame. just isn't well thought of for a while.
In 98 he wasn't the rocket. But I got to thinking, who saves a golf receipt for 10 years?
I wonder if it had 98 course fees or 2008? Anyone bother to check that out.
I don't like the confusion, the diversions, from either side. It's not about who lied or who told the truth, it's now a popularity contest and it's not pretty. Pettite not showing up, Clemens taking the focus off of himself and onto wife, McNamee a questionable character who he hung out with.
Glen Beck just mentioned it cost us (the taxpayers) almost a million dollars...so far.
Fox News is reporting tonight the Feds have filed documents showing Barry Bonds tested positive for steroids in 2000.
On and on we go, further down the tubes.
Maybe, just maybe, can MLB finally adopt an Olympic level testing program? Blood, hair, urine, the works? If a player refuses, gone. One and done.
Do we have enough trash flying around to prove the need?
Either that or make it all legal and get CVS and Rite Aid to sponsor the MLB.
Happy Pitchers and Catchers Report Day everyone.
Next year, it'll be pitchers, catchers, pharmacists, lawyers, and CSI's report day.
On and on we go, further down the tubes.
Maybe, just maybe, can MLB finally adopt an Olympic level testing program? Blood, hair, urine, the works? If a player refuses, gone. One and done.
Do we have enough trash flying around to prove the need?
Either that or make it all legal and get CVS and Rite Aid to sponsor the MLB.
Happy Pitchers and Catchers Report Day everyone.
Next year, it'll be pitchers, catchers, pharmacists, lawyers, and CSI's report day.
quote:Maybe, just maybe, can MLB finally adopt an Olympic level testing program? Blood, hair, urine, the works? If a player refuses, gone. One and done.
I mean this is the only issue right now. Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds are beside the issue imho. Lets hear one player start advocating blood testing. That guy is my hero.