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Son is 2011 RHP who is being recruited by a DII pretty heavily. Really is more interested in a certain smaller DI, who to this point has shown as much interest.
Question- should he accept the DII or wait around? I look at it as kind of like "A bird in the hand...". What he does accept and later in the process a DI shows interest? Is it acceptable to trade up? Very curious.
Last edited {1}
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Most people will tell you the right thing to do is to not trade-up. However, I do not completely agree. While going back on your (son's) word would cast him in a bad light with the spurned program, At the end of the day, who cares? The new school is the one your son has to please. If it's his top choice and would be happier there, he should take it. I believe, that at a lot of schools, if your soon took a while to decide and in the interim the school found a stud and had no $$ left, they would give away your son's spot in a heartbeat and say "We didn't hear from you so we figured your son was not interested. We had to fill our class." Your son should do what is best for him. Just my inexperienced opinion.
This is a question that only your son/family can answer. However, you say that the Division I school has shown as much interest as the D-2 that has made an offer. Perhaps your son can have a conversation with the D-1 school and lay out the scenario as it stands and ask if there is a possibility of joining that program prior to making a commitment he's not completely comfortable with. Good luck.
Some will call me old fashioned, but I say once you tell someone you are going to attend their school, then thats what you need to do.

I think you gotta think about what you are teaching your son?

quote:
While going back on your (son's) word would cast him in a bad light with the spurned program, At the end of the day, who cares?


Is that really what anyone wants to each their son? "Who cares" about who you leave in the dust? "Who cares" about people you take advantage of as long as you get yours?

It works both ways..."who cares" about your son's (and your) reputation? I would.
justbaseball...of course one cares about his or her son's reputation. But if some D2 or D3 offered my son a package, and then his dream school came along with an equal or even lesser offer, and my son wanted to go, I would support it. I will not allow my son to make a decision that will affect the rest of his life and perhaps be unhappy and leave him regretting his decision. While in most cases I would agree with you, I respectfully disagree here. As I said, a school would do it without any thought. That's just the way it goes. In 4 years, nobody will remember. if he is good enough to get drafted, his decommittal 4 years prior will not affect anything. And if he's not good enough to go pro, then it still didn't matter that he decommitted. At least he does not have to live with the what if. And i'm sure the spurned school found a way to survive.

The alternative, keep his word, quit in a year because he made a mistake and is miserable, and never realize his full potential. If you would prefer this scenario if it was your son in this position, that's up to you.
Last edited by 2013 Dad
2013Dad - I appreciate the politeness of your response. I am not meaning to pick on you in particular...your view of this is pervasive today, but it troubles me. Just yesterday I got an email from a very good friend of many years whose 2011 son 'committed' to a D1...but the email hinted that they continue to enjoy the attention he is now getting and may continue to look. The first part ('commitment') made me very happy (proud...since he's a kid I coached a lot)...the second part (continue to look) made me very sad.

My view is that if you're not sure, you shouldn't 'commit' in the first place. The advice given above to lay it out for the D1 school of interest about the situation (D2 offer) in order to get a good idea of what "D1" is thinking...is good advice.

I've been through this twice. In both cases we made it clear to our sons that once they gave their word, that was it. The first one, who is through college and in pro ball now, did have second thoughts about a year in, but we pushed him to stay the course and he will tell you today that we were 100% correct and he's glad we did. The second one committed very early...and had the pitching coach who mainly recruited him leave in the late summer...has not wavered one single bit. I'm proud of those two 'outcomes.'

As for this:

quote:
...a school would do it without any thought.


That is simply not true in most cases. There are some, but I would steer clear of them too. You cannot paint all programs into a single corner with a broad brush.
Last edited by justbaseball
Just Baseball - I believe that you may be doing a little broad brush painting yourself. You are going with the belief that most schools hold true to their word when they promise a scholarship for all four years of college. We simply know that isn't true and the school knows that isn't true when they promise that. Every year there are a handfull of players at several D1 schools that get the hint that the school would prefer that they "voluntarily" relinquish their scholarship. If they don't, they simply won't play. After one year of that, the player will more often than not move on. The school can say that they kept their word but in the end they know that if a player does not work out, they will not be honoring the 4 year scholarship most of the time.
Brickhouse,
Scholarships, by NCAA rule, are only for one year. Coaches and schools are precluded from offering scholarships for 4 years.
A few weeks back, this board was filled with comments on the new UNLV coach and the manner in which he cleaned house. It was in accordance with NCAA procedures, but certainly less than "right."
My view is that player and parent views and approaches on commitment, of the type described in this thread, can create a "wild" "wild" west for baseball. If players/recruits take a view of their word and commitment is only as good as the next offer, why should any NCAA college coach take a different view? If a player/parent takes the view their word/commitment is only as good as the next offer, why should any college coach have any concern about dropping them/cutting them the following May/June if they don't perform?
Last edited by infielddad
Because so many transactions occur before the NCAA allows formal commitments, the whole recruiting system depends on trust.

Yes, some players and coaches will attempt to exploit the lack of enforceability of verbal commitments, but they are a minority and we should endeavor to make this minority even smaller.

Instead of devaluing your word because you assume (with no evidence) that the coach doesn't value his, it would be better to honor your word because you expect the coach to honor his.
quote:
Originally posted by Brickhouse:
I hear what your saying infielddad, but I can tell you that some D1 schools are telling kids that the scholarship offers are for all four years.


Yes there are. And there are some fairly simple (and probing) questions a parent can ask...and get responses too (in writing) that make it clear what that coach's and that school's policy and practice are on this issue.

I find that most (we have dealt with...which is a fairly large number across two sons) are required by their athletic department and administration to behave in the 'better' way. The ones that aren't...are fairly easy to unearth...either through their answers or a little research.

Having just returned from son #2's official visit to his future school and talking to parents of other 'commits,' I'd say the other parents have done a good job of unearthing the same schools that we did.
I believe most colleges will renew or adjust the scholarship every year. Some will not, though.

However, when a player feels he is no longer wanted as a scholarship player at his school, things get a bit uncomfortable.

The bottom line is that scholarships are for one year, no matter what anyone says. This in itself means that every player has to earn next years scholarship. Same as if they were on an academic scholarship.

When someone mentions things like grades and misconduct being the only things that can cause loss of scholarship, think about how they might define misconduct. The superstar who is late for practice isn't going to lose his scholarship due to being late. However, is that considered misconduct for the player they no longer want?

If they want to get rid of a player, they will figure out how to do it.

I really see nothing wrong about all this. Isn't it how the world operates?
Last edited by PGStaff
Lets say your son is a 2011 grad after is junior year is approached by a D1 on official offer day in July. Offered a full ride. This school is not is first choice. The school he would love to play for as not made any contact or seen any of is games. He waits a few weeks after playing a few more summer tournaments still nothing from the D1 school he wants to play for. He decides to commit to the D1 school that made him the offer. Low and behold the D1 school he really wanted to play for contacts him and makes him an offer - for sake of argument offers same full ride.

Based on your thoughts he verbally commited and should stick with that commitment. I say nothing signed so why not play for your dream school.
Last edited by berryball
Justbaseball--You make some good points. There is something to sticking to your word. I do think that the difficulty comes when you commit to one place and later on a better school offers which was not on the radar originally.

Chinnychinchin, perhaps the better thing to do is to be honest with the D2. If your son likes it there and could play for the coach and really likes the school (very important), and the academics are what he is looking for (also very important-he does eventually have to get a job), then tell the coach that you'll come, barring a dream offer from a D1. We talked with dozens of coaches, and most were realistic on that issue. They will not expect you to pass up a D1 offer for lower ball. I assure you, most coaches will not hesitate at all to bump your son if a dream D1 player later falls through the cracks and wants to play for them.

Also, I would be careful about setting up a D1 as the dream scenario. Our school has sent off many players to D1 over the years (SEC, SoCoN,etc.,). As of yet, none have played. Sure, they all had bragging rights at the end of their senior year, but in the end was it worth it? My son's D3 team has an SEC transfer who realized he would never play at his school and came over so he could get a chance to start. He was miserable riding the bench. Still he may be beaten out by other players ahead of him this year.

Your son needs to ask the coaches if they really like him to start or they see him as a situational player. "He has a chance to start," is not the assurance you are looking for. . .he also has a chance of finding the cure for cancer as a freshmanSmile Both are as likely when a coach says that. Also is the lower d1 a chronically losing team? My son had a similar decision to yours and decided from experience that being on a chronically losing team is not fun. Far better to play for a very good D3 or a good to very good d2.
Brickhouse,

The thread began on the issue of making a commit a player might not want to keep.

Renewing scholarships is an entirely separate issue. PG Staff summarized the situation well. I'd just like to add two points:

1. Every recruiting/scholarship discussion is conducted with the assumption that the player will progress well through his college career. It's very easy for players and parents to interpret these concversations as promises, when every sentence they're hearing really begins with a silent, "Assuming everything works out . . ." Expectations and promises are two different things. When things don't work out, it doesn't mean anyone lied.

2. It's generally understood that the higher the level of competition, the more likely it is for players performing below expectations to separate from the baseball team through personal choice, being helped out to find other opportunities, or being pushed out. When players commit to play in the SEC, PAC-10, ACC or other top conferences, they know they are entering an intensely competitive environment where non-performance will have consequences. In nearly every case, these players deliberately choose this challenge over more secure situations in less elite conferences. Again, when things don't work out, it doesn't mean anyone lied.
I agree that the rule is to stand by your word. But as with all rules there are exceptions. We are talking about a major life decision. Ideally, yes, I would like my son to stay committed after giving a verbal. But in this situation a change of heart is acceptable and understandable, and by me, encouraged if it is well thought out and is a better fit. Besides, in a decommitment situation, nobody gets hurt. The player gets the school he wants and the spurned program will just find someone else, who by the way may be a player who had no options until your son decommitted, thereby giving someone else the chance of a lifetime. Do you really think a program wants a kid to stay just to keep his word when he really wants to be somewhere else? I think if you ask most coaches, to a man they would tell you they want the player to want to be there.
Last edited by 2013 Dad
2013dad,
In trying to envision what you are saying, it seems that there are two aspects to the "commitment." The first is your son can change his mind.
Implicit in that is the concept that after he makes his commitment, he will continue to look and talk with other programs. If he tells other programs he has committed, most will honor that. Not all, but most.
Are you saying that your son is okay to commit, okay to continue to look after he gives his word, okay to change his mind for a "better" perceived opportunity, okay to then decommit, and they okay to verbal again, all in the name of baseball?
My view/response is if all of that is roughly correct, there cannot be any complaints if, at the end of the first year, or before, if the coaching staff were to leave before your son steps into the classroom, there is a change of view from the coaches and they either don't ask him back or move to another player.
Personally, I think swampboy has provided a wonderful assessment of this entire situation.
We can rationalize this in many ways.
Integrity of our word is what our son's and we as parents bring to the process.
The right thing to do is usually easy to figure out, doing it can be more difficult.

1. As another poster indicated, no interest/commitment from the "dream" school, problem solved. Go where you are wanted.

2. If you're not sure about the D2, don't go, there are always other options like JCs or addtional offers at some later date. On the west coast D2's seem to offer much later in the year.

3. Once a commitment is given, don't back out, stick to your word. If a coach encourages you to get out of your deal with another school, walk away. (My son experienced this one)
Last edited by CollegeParentNoMore
quote:
Besides, in a decommitment situation, nobody gets hurt. The player gets the school he wants and the spurned program will just find someone else...


I don't agree with that...at all. I know coaches at a D1 school (not my son's) who faced exactly this situation with a key recruit (key position, key player) earlier this year.

This player and his family apparently took the attitude of locking something up, then continuing to 'hunt' as the player continued to visit other campuses and attend their camps. He eventually decommitted and recommitted to another program considered by some to be a 'stronger' D1 program.

There is no way that the coaches of the original school didn't feel betrayed, slighted...left holding an empty cup. And the 'replacement' player was certainly not as strong of a player given the late decommitment of the original player that occurred.

So, "nobody gets hurt?" Nope, I don't buy that.
Last edited by justbaseball
I fixed the typo in the thread title so that must mean that moderators are not all bad Smile

Seriously, if I thought I could add to the outstanding advice that has been offered here, I would, but I can't.

I believe in keeping your word as well. Honesty is the way you deal with this problem as has been mentioned. Tell the D2 coach the truth (that you still may be open to the D1) and let the chips fall where they may.

After my son's junior year, there was basically one D3 school that recruited him hard. The coach called our house every day and my son and I thought very, very highly of him. He pressured us immensely to commit. Upon visiting the school in the fall, he really made the hard sale. We told him we would commit after hearing from one D1 school and after the D1 signing period. We were completely transparent with them but made it clear we were looking for the D1 opportunity. The D3 coach tried to downplay it by saying all he would get was a recruited walk-on and his odds of playing there would be slim. That kind of turned us off a bit but we still believed in this coach's ability as he led his team to Appleton this past year. The D3 was our backup plan and I don't think that coach would have turned us down if the D1 offer did not materialize.

Honesty and transparency is the solution here imho. Otherwise, keep your word as has been posted.
No. I would not encourage my son to continue looking. The original question was:

"What he does accept and later in the process a DI shows interest? Is it acceptable to trade up?"

My point is: son has committed. Stopped search. D1-preferred school makes offer. It is ok for son to take D1. Again, I always teach my son to see it through and keep his word. But I really struggle with a parent telling a son to keep his word regarding a decision that will affect the rest of his life. If son will be happier at D1 preferred school, decommit. I will not have my son wondering what if or be unhappy and perhaps jeopardize his dreams just to keep his word in a circumstance such as this. After all, we are talking about 18 yr old kids. Like I said above, the only person who gets hurt, decommit or not, is your son. If a parent is intelligent enough to teach his or her child to keep their word, then a parent would also be able to explain exceptions in life.

I can tell you right now, if my son committed to a juco or DII, even though my son was not actively searching, and UM came calling he would be at UM. That is his dream! I will NOT rob my son of his dream (again IN THIS SITUATION). It is not his fault that UM (in my scenario) came calling late. And believe me, I would feel some remorse that my son would have to decommit. But I would feel a whole bunch more remorse if my son was regretful and unhappy based on my advice.
quote:
Originally posted by justbaseball:
[QUOTE]....... He eventually decommitted and recommitted to another program considered by some to be a 'stronger' D1 program.

There is no way that the coaches of the original school didn't feel betrayed, slighted...left holding an empty cup. .


Personally I'd be concerned about the character of the coaches of the new school one has committed to, knowing that the coach recruited a kid already commetted to another school. What else will this coach do? Will they be there for your son or themselves?
quote:
I can tell you right now, if my son committed to a juco or DII, even though my son was not actively searching, and UM came calling he would be at UM. That is his dream! I will NOT rob my son of his dream (again IN THIS SITUATION). It is not his fault that UM (in my scenario) came calling late. And believe me, I would feel some remorse that my son would have to decommit. But I would feel a whole bunch more remorse if my son was regretful and unhappy based on my advice.


Carried to an extreme...this is how some people end up cheating on their spouses. Something prettier, younger, wealthier, more of a 'badge of status' appears on the scene...and off they go.

Your example would NOT have happened in our house, because we had a very blunt and honest talk about what the word "commit" means both for him (integrity intact) and for the coaches (who were counting on his integrity). Had either son not been able to firmly give their word about commitment...that they were finished with the search, we would not have allowed them to "commit," no matter what the school.

You asked for advice, so I'll give it to you direct...don't let your son 'commit' to a school he is unsure about. Let him explain his scenario (as ClevelandDad showed above) to the D2 and let the chips fall where they may.
Last edited by justbaseball
I respect alot of the posters' opinion on this thread and on this site. I probably have portrayed myself as "me" first, which is not what I am or what I impart on my children.

By most people's reasoning on this topic how about this different example:

Player goes to a school he wanted to go to. Not what he thought, no playing time, doesn't like the coach, lost the desire, etc. Based on your position of keeping your word in the original decommit example, are you posters saying that a kid should stay in school and "see it through" assuming he continues to be offered scholarship? After all he did commit. Is it ok at this point to leave the school for another school he would get playing time? I don't see much of a difference. In fact, decommitting before enrolling is less egregious as you have yet to take a roster spot for the spurned school.
Last edited by 2013 Dad
2013dad,
Experience, and each person posting here has a son or son's with experience, will tell you the commit isn't what makes most talented and highly competitive players happy.
It is the 4-5 years after the "commit" that should be the goal. That will define the player and his level of happiness/satisfaction. The "commit" gets you in the door. Talent, being on the field and producing creates the result you are seeking.
In the world of college baseball, I would propose the amount of "integrity" a player and his family can expect from the process, the program and the coaching staff can be reflective of the "integrity" the player and parent create and bring to the process and program.
This is not a 1:1 I am sure, but I still like swampboy's view to bring integrity to the process.
Last edited by infielddad
Justbasbaseball, you wrote: "

Your example would NOT have happened in our house, because we had a very blunt and honest talk about what the word "commit" means both for him (integrity intact) and for the coaches (who were counting on his integrity). Had either son not been able to firmly give their word about commitment...that they were finished with the search, we would not have allowed them to "commit," no matter what the school.

You asked for advice, so I'll give it to you direct...don't let your son 'commit' to a school he is unsure about. Let him explain his scenario (as ClevelandDad showed above) to the D2 and let the chips fall where they may."


So if your son wanted the preferred school, you would tell him, you need to wait before you commit. Ok, I agree to a point, but how long does he wait. He keeps waiting and waiting and preferred D1 doesn't come, then what...no baseball at any school?
Last edited by 2013 Dad
Totally different, completely.
The coaches commitment is one year.
The player's commitment is one year, as is the NLI.
If the player gets there and hates it, they can transfer. Happens all the time. They just cannot transfer to a DI without penalty.
If the player gets there and the coaching staff sees no future for him, they can tell him at the end of year one. Some programs do, some don't. Most coaching staffs and programs stick by players who don't perform or under perform.
Do you feel your son's dream school, UM, is going to make him happy if his reality is far different from the "dream?"
These are some of the reasons to do the homework before committing, not making the commit and then doing the homework.
Dream schools and reality in college baseball don't equate well, in my opinion, because the dream is usually created without any real hard data or first hand knowledge/concept of the daily grind and hard work/competition that exists.
Last edited by infielddad
Many coaches would certainly be disappointed, but reluctantly give way to a committed player that receives an offer which is significantly better than their offer.

It might even be discussed between the coaches......

"Yes, I can use him now..."

Or, "Let him play for you for a year and see what happens.."

"I really don't have room for him this year...."
Last edited by FormerObserver
But the daily grind exists at all schools.

Look everyone, I still don't think everyone understands where I am coming from.

1. After careful consideration of 3 or 4 offers (D1 2D2s and a D3), player commits to decent D2 say in FEB of senior year.

2. Player STOPS search.

3. Mid July, dream school makes an offer equivalent to committed school.

4. I say ok.

I DO NOT advocate committing willy nilly, continuing search and then decommitting. My position is ONLY applicable to the question as posed. Besides, other things may be a factor which the posters are not considering such as location, family in area of preferred D1.

There is not an across the board answer. And again my position is limited only to the original question. But I do agree that if you intend on contuinuing to look you should not commit and let the offering school know your intention up front.
2013, you are right, you do come across as a me first type guy. You say your aren't but it's our actions that really show who we are. I bet you'd feel differently if you son decommitted and accepted at his dream school only to have the dream school change their mind and go with someone of more tallent! You would certainly cry foul but you would have no right too.

If you accept something, that is a possition you take from someone else who's dream school that may be. It's a whole snow ball and your actions do affect many others. Isn't that the most important thing to impart on your kids? Sometimes the best advice is to be happy with what you have rather then continue to envy what you don't have. I bet that lesson would do all our children more good in life then almost any other.

I hope you reconsider your attitude as if too many people feel that way then it impacts the rest of us as why should a coach be held to a higher level of integrity then a recruit? It does matter, it does affect others and it does affect who your son turns into.

One wonderful thing about this site is all the grounded, honest people who share their opinions....swampboy and infield dad, I am glad to share your opinion on this.
2013Dad - Your scenario wouldn't have happened in our house for reasons I've already outlined. In both cases, there were schools our sons would have committed to early (and did) and others they would have asked to wait (and did) until they had more information. Some schools let them wait for more information, some did not. I'm ok with that.

With son #2 we did in fact run-to-ground the other school or two he thought he might(?) have more interest in (his own "UM's"). We talked directly with those coaches and got a full, honest and upfront assessment of where he stood with them (which fell in the category of maybe...even probably...but not a 'sure thing' yet). With that information, he settled on his choice, made his commitment, informed the other coaches on what he had done...and aside one who tried a late shot a finding out if he had a 'change of heart'...that was it.

But yes, I have a far bigger problem with families that continue to 'shop' after making a commitment than in the scenario you describe. However, I would still strongly advise (if nothing more than for the good example I believe you'll clearly show your son)...that you openly discuss your dilemna with the D2 coach as ClevelandDad's son did with the D3 coach.

And yes, if none of it works out...college without baseball should be an option you consider strongly. My sons could have (and would have) done it if that were in their best interests.
quote:
What if your son wanted to decommit, you advised against it and he was miserable. Could he then transfer later? If so, how is that different?

Transfer is completely different. As has been posted, the "commit" is known by all parties to be one year. If after sampling the "cake" after one year, the athlete decides to transfer, then that is an acceptable thing to do by all parties concerned.

The recruiting scenario you describe is called "having your cake and eating it too." In that case, the cake is the commit and the eating too is the decommit. No problem with telling the coach you are still playing the field. Don't use them to hedge for a better opportunity however.
Hi!
When it comes to baseball scholarships, I think its fair to consider new opportunties as they become available, simply because all possible offers aren't on the table at the same time. There are so many variables in baseball... different signing periods, spring season performance, the draft, etc. Some players may not have their best options available for consideration in the fall, which makes it very difficult to make an informed decision...especially for a 17 or 18 year old.

Evaluate each opportunity at the time its presented, research the committment rules, and be honest with the coach about your intentions before signing. If new opportunities present themselves down the road, reevaluate the situation, follow the rules, and be honest with the coaches involved. More often than not, they will understand.
Last edited by TxMom
I beg to differ Cleveland Dad, not on the process itself, but on the result. To me, it is very similar. In a transfer, lets say Fresh is playing well and helping team and team wants him back. But player for whatever reason, (a friend, girlfriend) wants to transfer). School expected player to stay and now has to fill roster with an unproven freshman instead. School gets hurt, but ok for son to transfer?

Although I agree that a trasfer is more accepted, I do not agree that such general acceptance makes it any different. In a transfer, the kid has signed a NLI taken $$$ and a roster spot. In a decommit situation, the kid simply says no thanks and takes nothing from the school.

Again, I am not saying under any circumstance it is OK to decommit. I am saying that in a limited situation (as I and others have described) it is an unfortunate necessity for the happiness of the player. And one that I would support my son making.

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