First off here, I think we are talking about verbals. Once the NLI is signed, I think the decommit option is gone but somebody set me straight there.
TxMom - I think I understand what you are saying. But, don't you think if the athlete wants to wait until everything is on the table (e.g., spring of senior season), then they shouldn't commit to anyone in the fall or winter?
Is it ok to trade up when a better offer comes (after verbally comtting) or is it better to wait (to commit) while the athlete searches for the best option?
It's been a healthy debate and I have enjoyed it. I will leave you all of opposing views with this:
You get fired, struggling to pay your mortgage and food for family. Things are TOUGH. You finally find a job that you don't want, but of course you must take it because it is all that is available, at a low paying place (whatever it may be)? The Friday before you start the new job, another place with twice the pay in a field you enjoy offers you a job with them. If anyone tells me they would stick with the first low paying unwanted job, well, I just wouldn't believe it.
The point being, certain beliefs and principles are unwavering until they can't be.
You get fired, struggling to pay your mortgage and food for family. Things are TOUGH. You finally find a job that you don't want, but of course you must take it because it is all that is available, at a low paying place (whatever it may be)? The Friday before you start the new job, another place with twice the pay in a field you enjoy offers you a job with them. If anyone tells me they would stick with the first low paying unwanted job, well, I just wouldn't believe it.
The point being, certain beliefs and principles are unwavering until they can't be.
All I know is if my son 'committed' to School-B for 50% scholarship...given the understanding he and I have for the word 'commitment'...and School-A-dream-school called just before son was to depart for college offering 100% that he'd still be going to School-B.
...Even though it would cost me $$.
Thats the way we do it in our house.
Did you really want 'advice?' Or just affirmation of what you've already decided to do?
...Even though it would cost me $$.
Thats the way we do it in our house.
Did you really want 'advice?' Or just affirmation of what you've already decided to do?
A lot can also depend on how your son handles the situation.
My guy wanted D-1 simply because he felt he was a D-1 player and wanted to prove it.
He had D-II schools on him, one of whom knew him well as his summer team played on their field. Son had a full scholarship waiting for him at the D-II- He loved the school and field --during summer play there he ate the field up-- but he told coach he wanted D-I --D-II coach understood and told him that if he did not work out he had a home at his school.
As it turned out o he went D-I and never looked back
My guy wanted D-1 simply because he felt he was a D-1 player and wanted to prove it.
He had D-II schools on him, one of whom knew him well as his summer team played on their field. Son had a full scholarship waiting for him at the D-II- He loved the school and field --during summer play there he ate the field up-- but he told coach he wanted D-I --D-II coach understood and told him that if he did not work out he had a home at his school.
As it turned out o he went D-I and never looked back
JB- Lol! My son is a 2013. This had to do with the thread originator. Besides, once my son makes a decision with my advice, I don't need affirmation from anybody. And I whole heartedly disagree with your position. If it was reversed and the committed school offered more than the Dream School, I would pay the extra.
Funny how nobody answered the hypothetical though.
Funny how nobody answered the hypothetical though.
quote:And I whole heartedly disagree with your position.
There is no question about that...none whatsoever. Acknowledged.
justbaseball,
2013 Dad isn't the original poster (who so far has only posted once), and he's offering an inexperienced, (and in my view, an uninformed) opinion rather than asking for advice.
Chinneychinchin,
Is the D2 asking him to sign a NLI? If so, switching to a D1 is not practical. If he isn't being offered some athletic money, what is the point of verbally committing to the D2? To get admission preference? If he isn't being offered something of value, just don't commit. I suspect that they'll still accept him on the team if he shows up next fall.
On the other hand, if he is being offered something of value, then I agree with justbaseball and others. He needs to honor the committment.
2013 Dad isn't the original poster (who so far has only posted once), and he's offering an inexperienced, (and in my view, an uninformed) opinion rather than asking for advice.
Chinneychinchin,
Is the D2 asking him to sign a NLI? If so, switching to a D1 is not practical. If he isn't being offered some athletic money, what is the point of verbally committing to the D2? To get admission preference? If he isn't being offered something of value, just don't commit. I suspect that they'll still accept him on the team if he shows up next fall.
On the other hand, if he is being offered something of value, then I agree with justbaseball and others. He needs to honor the committment.
3FG, my opinion may be inexperienced as far as baseball, but certainly not as far as life goes. If in JB's most recent scenario, you agree, then more power to you. I don't need to be experienced in the recruiting process to offer an opinion on my son's happiness. I am curious as to your answer to the real life example I posted and as to why you believe it to be different, if in fact that is the case.
Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in!-LOL
Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in!-LOL
quote:Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
2013 Dad isn't the original poster (who so far has only posted once), and he's offering an inexperienced, (and in my view, an uninformed) opinion rather than asking for advice.
Yup, realized that after the fact. Sorry 'bout that.
Hi ClevelandDad!
I think you're right about the fall signing period. Both of our sons had a few good fall offers, but decided not to sign at that time because none of the schools seemed to be a good fit for them..
Both did sign with top JUCOs in Feb., but were honest with coaches about their desire to sign with a D1 if an opportunity came along later in the spring. One son eventually signed with a D1 in May. The other stayed with his JUCO choice and went on to a Big 12 D1 his junior year.
Both were also drafted in June, which made them reevaluate everything all over again. We went through the decison process 4 times with each kid during their senior year! It was draining, but everything turned out for the best in the end.
I think you're right about the fall signing period. Both of our sons had a few good fall offers, but decided not to sign at that time because none of the schools seemed to be a good fit for them..
Both did sign with top JUCOs in Feb., but were honest with coaches about their desire to sign with a D1 if an opportunity came along later in the spring. One son eventually signed with a D1 in May. The other stayed with his JUCO choice and went on to a Big 12 D1 his junior year.
Both were also drafted in June, which made them reevaluate everything all over again. We went through the decison process 4 times with each kid during their senior year! It was draining, but everything turned out for the best in the end.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
Brickhouse,
The thread began on the issue of making a commit a player might not want to keep.
Renewing scholarships is an entirely separate issue. PG Staff summarized the situation well. I'd just like to add two points:
1. Every recruiting/scholarship discussion is conducted with the assumption that the player will progress well through his college career. It's very easy for players and parents to interpret these concversations as promises, when every sentence they're hearing really begins with a silent, "Assuming everything works out . . ." Expectations and promises are two different things. When things don't work out, it doesn't mean anyone lied.
2. It's generally understood that the higher the level of competition, the more likely it is for players performing below expectations to separate from the baseball team through personal choice, being helped out to find other opportunities, or being pushed out. When players commit to play in the SEC, PAC-10, ACC or other top conferences, they know they are entering an intensely competitive environment where non-performance will have consequences. In nearly every case, these players deliberately choose this challenge over more secure situations in less elite conferences. Again, when things don't work out, it doesn't mean anyone lied.
I can assure you that the coaches were asked prior to signing the NLI if they ever did not renew a scholarship based on performance and they said that they did not.
quote:Originally posted by TxMom:
Hi ClevelandDad!
Both did sign with top JUCOs in Feb., though, but were honest with the coaches about their desire to sign with a D1 if an opportunity came along later in the spring.
First, Hi TxMom
Secondly, your boys did it right. I believe the part that I boldend from your post is the whole key to what everyone is talking about here. There are ways to handle this particular problem and honesty is the key imho.
Thanks for continuing to add excellent value to our site!
2013--
Your analogy is off point. If you receive/accept a better offer the Friday before you're supposed to start a job, the employer can re-advertise and fill the position in a matter of weeks, just like he would if you took the job, worked a few months, and gave two weeks notice. Not a big deal. No breach of trust. No problem.
In college baseball, it's not so easy. If you decide in mid-July(!) as you proposed a few posts back--after many freshman players have already started summer school, after students all over the country have already paid enrollment fees, in the middle of colleges scrambling to keep their draft picks from turning pro and to backfill the guys who left early for one reason or another, while the college recruiters are out scouting the summer tournaments and showcases for the following year's recruits--that the grass is greener at Big State U, you will cause chaos and heartburn through the entire system and probably cause a scholarship to get wasted or inefficiently used. (That's why you might have a hard time getting released from your NLI.)
The whole point of a verbal commitment is that both parties have seen enough to mutually agree to take some risks and commit to work together for at least the freshman year. My son will sign next month. If he adds 5 mph and strikes out 150 guys his senior year of high school, that's the school he's going to. On the other hand, if he has a slumpy, streaky, inconsistent year, that's still the school he's going to.
True story: One hour after my son made his verbal commitment, I got a call from a top conference school that was coming off a great season and a strong NCAA appearance.
"Hi, this is coach ***x from Big Time U. Is this a good time?"
"An hour ago would have been better, Coach. He just committed to Not Quite So Big Time U. As we speak, he's calling the other coaches who made offers."
"I guess that's why I couldn't get through on his cell phone. Wish I'd called sooner. Please give him my congratulations. I know the coach at Not Quite. He's a super guy. Good luck to your son."
The coach at Big Time U clearly expected my son to honor the verbal commitment he had made to another coach just an hour before. So did the coaches my son called about his decision. None tried to sweeten their offers or make any last sales pitches or talk him out of it. All of them accepted "I just committed" as his final answer. That should tell you something.
If you want to keep hope alive for your dream school, your best plan is simply to refrain from committing anywhere else.
Your analogy is off point. If you receive/accept a better offer the Friday before you're supposed to start a job, the employer can re-advertise and fill the position in a matter of weeks, just like he would if you took the job, worked a few months, and gave two weeks notice. Not a big deal. No breach of trust. No problem.
In college baseball, it's not so easy. If you decide in mid-July(!) as you proposed a few posts back--after many freshman players have already started summer school, after students all over the country have already paid enrollment fees, in the middle of colleges scrambling to keep their draft picks from turning pro and to backfill the guys who left early for one reason or another, while the college recruiters are out scouting the summer tournaments and showcases for the following year's recruits--that the grass is greener at Big State U, you will cause chaos and heartburn through the entire system and probably cause a scholarship to get wasted or inefficiently used. (That's why you might have a hard time getting released from your NLI.)
The whole point of a verbal commitment is that both parties have seen enough to mutually agree to take some risks and commit to work together for at least the freshman year. My son will sign next month. If he adds 5 mph and strikes out 150 guys his senior year of high school, that's the school he's going to. On the other hand, if he has a slumpy, streaky, inconsistent year, that's still the school he's going to.
True story: One hour after my son made his verbal commitment, I got a call from a top conference school that was coming off a great season and a strong NCAA appearance.
"Hi, this is coach ***x from Big Time U. Is this a good time?"
"An hour ago would have been better, Coach. He just committed to Not Quite So Big Time U. As we speak, he's calling the other coaches who made offers."
"I guess that's why I couldn't get through on his cell phone. Wish I'd called sooner. Please give him my congratulations. I know the coach at Not Quite. He's a super guy. Good luck to your son."
The coach at Big Time U clearly expected my son to honor the verbal commitment he had made to another coach just an hour before. So did the coaches my son called about his decision. None tried to sweeten their offers or make any last sales pitches or talk him out of it. All of them accepted "I just committed" as his final answer. That should tell you something.
If you want to keep hope alive for your dream school, your best plan is simply to refrain from committing anywhere else.
Swampboy-
That's great about your son. But a couple differences with your example. My scenario was from a D2 school to DREAM school. I'm talking the school kid went to games at growing up and dreamed of wearing their uniform and play on their field. Was that Big Time U or was Big Time U simply an elite program, but not the school your son dreamed about since he was 8.
Also, if its not a change your son wanted to make, then great. I wouldn't advise him to decommit either. But if your son told you, Dad, I would really fit better at Big Time U and I think i would be a lot happier at Big Time U. Would your position change?
As far as the Job hypothetical, simply change the dates, D1 preferred comes in December and early verballed June before Senior year. Is it ok then?
I agree with all, don't commit til ready. I'm exhausted. thanks all. I will agree to disagree. Although, I had a couple supoprters, but they did not remain active in this debate
That's great about your son. But a couple differences with your example. My scenario was from a D2 school to DREAM school. I'm talking the school kid went to games at growing up and dreamed of wearing their uniform and play on their field. Was that Big Time U or was Big Time U simply an elite program, but not the school your son dreamed about since he was 8.
Also, if its not a change your son wanted to make, then great. I wouldn't advise him to decommit either. But if your son told you, Dad, I would really fit better at Big Time U and I think i would be a lot happier at Big Time U. Would your position change?
As far as the Job hypothetical, simply change the dates, D1 preferred comes in December and early verballed June before Senior year. Is it ok then?
I agree with all, don't commit til ready. I'm exhausted. thanks all. I will agree to disagree. Although, I had a couple supoprters, but they did not remain active in this debate
Swampboy - you have shown yourself to be a major player here at the hsbbweb. Outstanding advice and stories. Keep up the good work! 
quote:As far as the Job hypothetical, simply change the dates, D1 preferred comes in December and early verballed June before Senior year. Is it ok then?
These references to the job hypo just won't work.
Why...the NCAA NLI process and/or school ED/EA and admissions requirements.
If the early "verbal" was in June before the Senior year, then the NLI would come into play by November. If no NLI, then something changed when the dream offer comes in December. If there is no NLI based on the early verbal, nothing seemingly exists in that relationship by December.
The NCAA makes this something very different than your job situation. The NLI process, at least in part, is designed to prevent the exact type of employment situation you postulate from occurring.
Even if we take out the NLI and assume these are only recruited walk on concepts, without any scholarship money, there are school acceptances/deposits and financial and contractual obligations that make the situation completely separate from the work process.
To suggest there is no harm in your son taking the route of happiness for him, does not consider the impact on those coaches. Most have limited recruiting budgets. They are counting on players who verbal with them and usually worked very hard to identify and recruit them. For schools not fully funded, they stop recruiting for that position once they get the verbal and they rely on that player.
If parents wants their son to be happy, and in integrity, then don't commit. If you commit, then recognize that coaching staff believes you are part of their success. If they are not successful, they likely get fired.
Coaches take this very seriously, as would you if your job depended on the honesty and integrity of a player and his parents, and the "commitment" they made to you.
Agree with Swampboy and others, a committment is a committment. Honor it as you expect the colleges to honor theirs. The baseball community is small and your word and integrity go a long way. If you go back on a verbal it will be widely known...
o
2013,
You're right. Big Time U wasn't a dream school, so it wasn't hard for us to do the "right" thing.
I just re-read your earlier posts and realized we're discussing a hypothetical situation. How would I handle it? I'd thank the D2 for his interest, say it's way too early to make a good decision, and promise to stay in touch. Personally, I think it's an unrealistic scenario. Usually, it's the dream schools, not the mid majors or D2's, that make a few strategic early offers to lock up the no-doubter studs--they're the only ones who can pull it off.
You're right. Big Time U wasn't a dream school, so it wasn't hard for us to do the "right" thing.
I just re-read your earlier posts and realized we're discussing a hypothetical situation. How would I handle it? I'd thank the D2 for his interest, say it's way too early to make a good decision, and promise to stay in touch. Personally, I think it's an unrealistic scenario. Usually, it's the dream schools, not the mid majors or D2's, that make a few strategic early offers to lock up the no-doubter studs--they're the only ones who can pull it off.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Swampboy - you have shown yourself to be a major player here at the hsbbweb. Outstanding advice and stories. Keep up the good work!
Totally agree!
infielddad and swampboy,
let's assume the job hypothetical is different (which I do not agree with). You both agree that going back on your word is acceptable in that situation?
BTW, swampboy, I agree it is an unrealistic scenario (dream school), but it is made to prove a point to those who would advise their son to stay committed no matter what. There are always exceptions. However, I think that is the only situation in which I would advise my son to decommit.
let's assume the job hypothetical is different (which I do not agree with). You both agree that going back on your word is acceptable in that situation?
BTW, swampboy, I agree it is an unrealistic scenario (dream school), but it is made to prove a point to those who would advise their son to stay committed no matter what. There are always exceptions. However, I think that is the only situation in which I would advise my son to decommit.
I don't quite understand why you offer the hypo when the NCAA has rules to prevent that situation. You want to compare situations that are not comparable and not accept that they are not, but then "call out" others when they don't respond???
I also said this is not just an NLI issue for contrast with your job hypo and noted admissions/scholarships/deposits/room/board and like as additional examples of why they don't work.
Your job hypo, in my view, won't work in college baseball.
I also said this is not just an NLI issue for contrast with your job hypo and noted admissions/scholarships/deposits/room/board and like as additional examples of why they don't work.
Your job hypo, in my view, won't work in college baseball.
I too do not agree with the job analogy
2013 - We all know there are "corners" (exceptions) of every situation that cause one to stray from a mainstream principle. There are certainly corners of the commit/decommit that are different for different people...and we can all justify our actions if we want to bad enough.
You have outlined where your "corners" are...I get it. As a 2013 dad, you will have plenty of company I believe. If you were 2015, you would have even more company. But as one poster pointed out...there is most definitely damage on the other side (i.e. the coach's job possibly).
I (and others) have outlined our edges/corners. I full acknowledge that there could be an aspect hidden that I haven't thought of or experienced that would cause me to change my edges/corners. A significant change in school's/coach's policy on scholarship renewal may be one of those.
But not bigger-state-U arriving on the scene after a 'commitment.' We went over these scenarios with our boys and they understood that wasn't going to be allowed in the door.
Similar to swampboy's story, when our younger son committed early in his junior season, the recruiting coach of his "UM" said there was just one problem with that...'Now we'll have to face you.' (Same conference). That coach followed it up with a congratulatory email and a nice comment about how much "class" he had shown in the process.
That was quite valuable to him as a young man...and to us, his parents.
You have outlined where your "corners" are...I get it. As a 2013 dad, you will have plenty of company I believe. If you were 2015, you would have even more company. But as one poster pointed out...there is most definitely damage on the other side (i.e. the coach's job possibly).
I (and others) have outlined our edges/corners. I full acknowledge that there could be an aspect hidden that I haven't thought of or experienced that would cause me to change my edges/corners. A significant change in school's/coach's policy on scholarship renewal may be one of those.
But not bigger-state-U arriving on the scene after a 'commitment.' We went over these scenarios with our boys and they understood that wasn't going to be allowed in the door.
Similar to swampboy's story, when our younger son committed early in his junior season, the recruiting coach of his "UM" said there was just one problem with that...'Now we'll have to face you.' (Same conference). That coach followed it up with a congratulatory email and a nice comment about how much "class" he had shown in the process.
That was quite valuable to him as a young man...and to us, his parents.
Infield,
The whole point of this debate was the issue of decommitting and whether you should keep your word in a very limited situation (dream school, etc). The job hypo goes to the issue of keeping one's word. I'm simply trying to show those such as just baseball, that I don't agree with the "keep your word no matter what". While most try, there are times when you must break your word. What is necessary to break one's word varies from individual to individual. The job hypo goes directly to that (and only that). Not whether the rules allow it or not.
To reiterate, the follownig is the only hypothetical I would support my son's decommittal:
-Verbals to School "A" after careful thought
-February gets offer to DREAM school (defined as: grew up there, rooted, dreamed of playing there since age 8, it does not mean bigger or higher ranked or more prestigious, it just so happens my son's dream is UM)
-States he would be happier at dream school and dream school is a better fit, knows people, more comfortable, he has family there, etc.
-I would advise to decommit.
Again, if he really wants to be elsewhere, I think spurned coach would rather he leave.
The whole point of this debate was the issue of decommitting and whether you should keep your word in a very limited situation (dream school, etc). The job hypo goes to the issue of keeping one's word. I'm simply trying to show those such as just baseball, that I don't agree with the "keep your word no matter what". While most try, there are times when you must break your word. What is necessary to break one's word varies from individual to individual. The job hypo goes directly to that (and only that). Not whether the rules allow it or not.
To reiterate, the follownig is the only hypothetical I would support my son's decommittal:
-Verbals to School "A" after careful thought
-February gets offer to DREAM school (defined as: grew up there, rooted, dreamed of playing there since age 8, it does not mean bigger or higher ranked or more prestigious, it just so happens my son's dream is UM)
-States he would be happier at dream school and dream school is a better fit, knows people, more comfortable, he has family there, etc.
-I would advise to decommit.
Again, if he really wants to be elsewhere, I think spurned coach would rather he leave.
One thing missing in all this discussion. While we are talking about harming some college program. We need to understand that this stuff goes on all the time. Also, why is it that the kid or parents that decommit the only one without honor? Everytime this happens there is a college coach somewhere involved in wanting this decommitment to happen so he can get the player.
Seems like we should talk about the college coach who gains as well as the college coach who loses. After all, they are the ones with the most experience at these things. Parents might be most interested in the happiness and future of their son.
Everytime a player commits to a JC and then accepts a DI offer he is breaking a commitment in the interest of happiness. He too leaves the JC coach and program hanging. Yet this goes on all the time. It also works the other way when a DI player has commited but then chooses to go Juco for draft reasons. This stuff happens all the time. Levon Washington commited to Florida. He was drafted and decided to go Juco so he would be draft eligible again the next year. He was drafted and signed the next year. Florida didn't miss a beat, the kid ended up happy.
All that said, those who would never change their mind or a commitment are to be admired. I just think it is one of those things where you have to be in the situation.
Bottom line... If someone makes a mistake or a bad decision, should they stay with that decision or change things? And if things change for the better, is that a good thing or a bad thing.
If I commit to jumping off the bridge, even in writing, then come to my senses and change my mind for one reason or another. Is that good or bad?
IMO We should admire those who would keep their commitment, but don't look down on those who change there mind. I'm all for honesty and keeping commitments, but sometimes people change their mind. And I agree with what someone else said... If I'm the coach I don't want the player who wants something else.
While I'm at it... No one seems to think that commitment pertains to the draft. Guess it's Ok to leave the college hanging because of money, but not because of happiness.
Just for the record, I'm a big believer in keeping commitments and honesty. Also a big believer in correcting mistakes whenever possible. If that makes any sense. Don't believe in that old saying "You made your bed, now lay in it". If that bed is uncomfortable, I'm going to change something.
Seems like we should talk about the college coach who gains as well as the college coach who loses. After all, they are the ones with the most experience at these things. Parents might be most interested in the happiness and future of their son.
Everytime a player commits to a JC and then accepts a DI offer he is breaking a commitment in the interest of happiness. He too leaves the JC coach and program hanging. Yet this goes on all the time. It also works the other way when a DI player has commited but then chooses to go Juco for draft reasons. This stuff happens all the time. Levon Washington commited to Florida. He was drafted and decided to go Juco so he would be draft eligible again the next year. He was drafted and signed the next year. Florida didn't miss a beat, the kid ended up happy.
All that said, those who would never change their mind or a commitment are to be admired. I just think it is one of those things where you have to be in the situation.
Bottom line... If someone makes a mistake or a bad decision, should they stay with that decision or change things? And if things change for the better, is that a good thing or a bad thing.
If I commit to jumping off the bridge, even in writing, then come to my senses and change my mind for one reason or another. Is that good or bad?
IMO We should admire those who would keep their commitment, but don't look down on those who change there mind. I'm all for honesty and keeping commitments, but sometimes people change their mind. And I agree with what someone else said... If I'm the coach I don't want the player who wants something else.
While I'm at it... No one seems to think that commitment pertains to the draft. Guess it's Ok to leave the college hanging because of money, but not because of happiness.
Just for the record, I'm a big believer in keeping commitments and honesty. Also a big believer in correcting mistakes whenever possible. If that makes any sense. Don't believe in that old saying "You made your bed, now lay in it". If that bed is uncomfortable, I'm going to change something.
Well stated PG. 
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Swampboy - you have shown yourself to be a major player here at the hsbbweb. Outstanding advice and stories. Keep up the good work!
Totally agree!
I agree too!
After all was said and done (thinking that this would be a decision that would affect the rest of his life), he would have done well anywhere he went, had a great time, and most likely gotten the pro chance regardless, not because of where he went but because of ability, hard work, etc.
I also realized if he went to his dream school, it possibly might not have been the right fit, so please everyone, stop thinking that the better program is the better one for your son. Just wanted to add that in for those who are afraid of making a "mistake" of not choosing what you think, on teh surface is the better program.
I agree with those that say that what we teach our kids is important. It's ok to commit then to change your mind? Not in my house either. If you are gonna wait for something else better to come along you aren't ready.
BTW, once a player commits, the recruiting process stops, that's the whole idea of commiting, if a coach is still going after your son after he commits, I would pretty much stop and think about what type of coach he really is!
JMO.
2013,
When I denied the relevance of your analogy, I didn't concede anything about how I would handle that situation.
But let's play your game out anyway and see where it leads. You're trying to construct a hypothetical scenario in which I would back out of a job I've accepted so you can paint me into an absolutist corner. Then you can say, "Aha! It's the same thing. Therefore, it's okay to back out of a verbal commitment to the D2,"
Let me save you some trouble. Yes, I admit it. I confess that if I had previously accepted a job shoveling s****r player manure for minimum wage, I'd chuck it in a minute for the chance to be an MLB Assistant GM for a million a year.
So what does that prove? That I'm not 100% consistent? Should be self evident that I'm not. That integrity isn't important? Should be self evident that it is.
Actually it proves nothing, just as it would prove nothing if I played your game from the other end and tried to prove it is never okay to de-commit by concocting some scenario in which you admitted it might not be okay to go back on your word.
We're not talking about absolutes and extremes. We all admit there are some extreme situations when of course it's okay to de-commit (e.g., dad dies with no insurance and the ball player has to work to feed younger sisters) and there are some situations when it is clearly not okay to de-commit (e.g., player negotiates a slightly better deal with conference rival). We're not talking about those extremes. We're talking about ethical expectations for common situations in the normal recruiting process. Do you have anything constructive to say about that?
When I denied the relevance of your analogy, I didn't concede anything about how I would handle that situation.
But let's play your game out anyway and see where it leads. You're trying to construct a hypothetical scenario in which I would back out of a job I've accepted so you can paint me into an absolutist corner. Then you can say, "Aha! It's the same thing. Therefore, it's okay to back out of a verbal commitment to the D2,"
Let me save you some trouble. Yes, I admit it. I confess that if I had previously accepted a job shoveling s****r player manure for minimum wage, I'd chuck it in a minute for the chance to be an MLB Assistant GM for a million a year.
So what does that prove? That I'm not 100% consistent? Should be self evident that I'm not. That integrity isn't important? Should be self evident that it is.
Actually it proves nothing, just as it would prove nothing if I played your game from the other end and tried to prove it is never okay to de-commit by concocting some scenario in which you admitted it might not be okay to go back on your word.
We're not talking about absolutes and extremes. We all admit there are some extreme situations when of course it's okay to de-commit (e.g., dad dies with no insurance and the ball player has to work to feed younger sisters) and there are some situations when it is clearly not okay to de-commit (e.g., player negotiates a slightly better deal with conference rival). We're not talking about those extremes. We're talking about ethical expectations for common situations in the normal recruiting process. Do you have anything constructive to say about that?
WHAt happened to the original poster ?
I can tell you what our son did and that will probably help you know my views:
Our son had a dream school and a dream of playing DI.
Dream school showed some interest, but nothing substantive.
He deposited at a DIII that recruited him every step of the way.
During the Summer after his deposit, two DI's and a JC made a heavy run at him. He stayed with the DIII.
During Summer Wood bat leagues after his sophomore and junior years, he was offered a number of spots at major nationally ranked DII programs and a number of DI's. One ACC school actually had him admitted.
He stayed with the DIII and the coach who committed to him during that 12 month recruiting process.
He never has to look in the mirror question the way he managed those issues and whether he was true to his word.
Look, your view of the college baseball world is, in my view, suggestive of the reasons we now have the sit out rule for DI transfers. So many players like our son were being recruited during the Summers and transferring that the NCAA finally put an end to it. Things went overboard the wrong direction. Not everyone in college baseball can have it their way, be happy and be in their dream school.
We can rationalize things for our sons so situations end up being just as pliable as taffy...or we can instill them with integrity in a baseball is life moment when they commit to a coaching staff who also committed with them.
Our son had a dream school and a dream of playing DI.
Dream school showed some interest, but nothing substantive.
He deposited at a DIII that recruited him every step of the way.
During the Summer after his deposit, two DI's and a JC made a heavy run at him. He stayed with the DIII.
During Summer Wood bat leagues after his sophomore and junior years, he was offered a number of spots at major nationally ranked DII programs and a number of DI's. One ACC school actually had him admitted.
He stayed with the DIII and the coach who committed to him during that 12 month recruiting process.
He never has to look in the mirror question the way he managed those issues and whether he was true to his word.
Look, your view of the college baseball world is, in my view, suggestive of the reasons we now have the sit out rule for DI transfers. So many players like our son were being recruited during the Summers and transferring that the NCAA finally put an end to it. Things went overboard the wrong direction. Not everyone in college baseball can have it their way, be happy and be in their dream school.
We can rationalize things for our sons so situations end up being just as pliable as taffy...or we can instill them with integrity in a baseball is life moment when they commit to a coaching staff who also committed with them.
Yes swampboy, and if you read the post which reiterates the hypo, you will see that I am only advocating decommittal in the extreme example. As a rule, I would advise son to see his commitment through. But in the example I have set, I would not. My position is pointed to those who imply they would never decommit under any situation (justbaseball and infielddad (although just baseball imlied he would consider it based on scholarship issues, etc)). There are exceptions to every generality. This is one of those exceptions imo. It seems posters are taking my example to mean I would advise son to decommit if he wants regardless of the reason. That simply is not accurate.
quote:This is one of those exceptions imo.
So does every recruit, and their family, get that exception, or just your son?
And when the UNLV coach, as an example, comes in and cleans house of every player and recruit he does not want so he gets his "dream" players, that is okay too?
Actually players decommit all of the time when they sign an NLI and then go pro, is that wrong? No.
Good points PG, but one really doesn't know if they made a mistake until you get there and live it.
It's actually my opinion that most players do make the right decisions, but then they get there and don't realize that there are huge adjustments to make and it's not HS ball. Sticking with it, usually works out for most.
I also beleive that if the school really wants a player, then they will wait until he is ready to make the decision, if not, it means you are easily replaced in his eyes. The coach who says he will wait, most likely is the guy who really wants you.
JMO.
Good points PG, but one really doesn't know if they made a mistake until you get there and live it.
It's actually my opinion that most players do make the right decisions, but then they get there and don't realize that there are huge adjustments to make and it's not HS ball. Sticking with it, usually works out for most.
I also beleive that if the school really wants a player, then they will wait until he is ready to make the decision, if not, it means you are easily replaced in his eyes. The coach who says he will wait, most likely is the guy who really wants you.
JMO.
quote:Dream school showed some interest, but nothing substantive.
He deposited at a DIII that recruited him every step of the way.
During the Summer after his deposit, two DI's and a JC made a heavy run at him. He stayed with the DIII.
During Summer Wood bat leagues after his sophomore and junior years, he was offered a number of spots at major nationally ranked DII programs and a number of DI's. One ACC school actually had him admitted.
He stayed with the DIII and the coach who committed to him during that 12 month recruiting process.
I think that is something very special and shows great character. At the same time it goes to prove there are coaches out there who don't have a problem taking a player away from another college. Or is it OK to go from DIII to DI, but wrong to go DII to DI?
The truth is they changed the transfer rule because too many athletes wanted to transfer because they were unhappy. In other words, you could say lots of people were making mistakes.
On the other hand, beware of the grass not being greener at the dream school. In some cases the dream school becomes the nightmare school. BTW, Dream school to me is the one that wants me the most out of those that are acceptable.
Another thing to think about regarding "verbal" commitments. These have been broken many times and by both sides. The actual LOI signing is another thing.
TPM,
"but one really doesn't know if they made a mistake until you get there and live it"
Agreed. But it will be my son's decision ultimately that he will have to live with. That is exactly why I would never steer him to sticking it out when, in fact, he feels he would be happier and have more opportunity athletically and academically at his dream school.
What these posters seem to be saying is that parents would support a kid who choses dream school if no commitment had been made (obviously). But risk child's happiness and possible best future track just because a verbal non-binding commitment was made??? I don't think so.
"but one really doesn't know if they made a mistake until you get there and live it"
Agreed. But it will be my son's decision ultimately that he will have to live with. That is exactly why I would never steer him to sticking it out when, in fact, he feels he would be happier and have more opportunity athletically and academically at his dream school.
What these posters seem to be saying is that parents would support a kid who choses dream school if no commitment had been made (obviously). But risk child's happiness and possible best future track just because a verbal non-binding commitment was made??? I don't think so.
The transfer rule (sitting out one year) was put into effect because baseball transfers were losing credits with the moves and college baseball's Academic Progress Rate (moving toward a degree) dropped below an acceptable level by the NCAA. Players were moving because they were unhappy, sure, but also to get better financial deals at other institutions. Now, when a player signs that NLI, he had better be very sure it's the right place for him.
quote:Now, when a player signs that NLI, he had better be very sure it's the right place for him.
That is a very good point.
This is a good discussion. It seems most are strongly opinionated one way or another. That always makes for more interest.
I would like to mention something about commitments to a college baseball program. What message are the colleges that drop their baseball program sending to young players about commitment? You make a commitment to us but, we can leave you holding the bag in a heartbeat? And don't they get rid of coaches that have totally commited to their college? They call it higher education, man, what a tough lesson!
quote:We need to understand that this stuff goes on all the time. Also, why is it that the kid or parents that decommit the only one without honor?
"All the time" does not equal right.
Never said the coaches weren't part of the problem. In some cases, they most certainly are part of the problem.
I can only strongly influence my side of that equation (i.e. my sons...the players). I will continue to do my best to (strongly) influence them to do what my wife and I firmly believe to be right.
quote:...While I'm at it... No one seems to think that commitment pertains to the draft. Guess it's Ok to leave the college hanging because of money, but not because of happiness.
Don't count me in that group. That question came up quite often during the recruitment of our older son. We always gave honest answers...and we/he stuck to our word in that scenario too, which included money left on the table. No regrets.
If the thought process on that question had been different, we would've communicated that quite clearly to the schools being put at risk.
quote:But it will be my son's decision ultimately that he will have to live with.
But also remember that your actions throughout this process...whether related to this topic or any other...will be demonstrated front-and-center for your son and those too will be things that your son "lives with."