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justbaseball,

I admire your stance on this subject. However, I also believe there are certain circumstances when it is best to break a commitment. I think even you would agree.

To go a bit overboard... Lets say safety was a concern. I only thought of this because of another topic "Winter Ball" on this sight.

A few years ago nthe White Sox and some of their players committed to play winter ball for a club in Venezuela. Those players and the White Sox left early due to concerns about the safety of those players. This was a broken commitment, it put that club in a pinch, but for reasons that are understandable.

I know that is a far fetched example, but where do we draw the line as to when a commitment can or even should be broken.

Everyone has their own definition regarding the reasons, but I think most anyone would break a commitment for some reason.

So it gets down to why rather than whether you break a commitment. While some might look down on it, these are all individual decisions made by the player, his parents, the college coach and even the college itself. If it is important enough... people will change their mind about certain things.

No it might not make it right, but what is right can be up for debate. People make mistakes and sometimes the only way to make things "right" is by changing things. I understand that might not be the case with you and as I said before, that is an admirable trait. I would think that people who honor their commitments in every case are very rare.

I do think commitments should be well thought out without any intention of breaking them. Honesty is of great importance. But what I honestly think today might be different than what I think tomorrow.
Interesting discussion, I haven't read every post but can summarize my opinion with a parable.

There once was a young man that wanted to get married, so he set out searching for a wife. He had a girlfriend that was kinda cute, sweet, loyal, thoughtful, and most of all, truly loved him. He decided he would marry her. They announceand their engagement and set a date. His picture in the paper caught the eye of a beautiful young debutante that called on him, fluttered her eyes, and impressed him into calling off his wedding to marry her instead. She smelled so good and was so beautiful and enjoyed the luxurious lifestyle. It never crossed his mind if she would be true and loyal he was so smitten in love. They married and soon the honeymoon was over. She started paying less and less attention to her husband, even though he was the same. She liked to spend her free time scanning the wedding announcements in the newspapers....He longed for his old girlfriend back. End of story.
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
I believe most colleges will renew or adjust the scholarship every year. Some will not, though.

However, when a player feels he is no longer wanted as a scholarship player at his school, things get a bit uncomfortable.

The bottom line is that scholarships are for one year, no matter what anyone says. This in itself means that every player has to earn next years scholarship. Same as if they were on an academic scholarship.

When someone mentions things like grades and misconduct being the only things that can cause loss of scholarship, think about how they might define misconduct. The superstar who is late for practice isn't going to lose his scholarship due to being late. However, is that considered misconduct for the player they no longer want?

If they want to get rid of a player, they will figure out how to do it.

I really see nothing wrong about all this. Isn't it how the world operates?


With all do respect, this is not accurate. I know this is how things work in the SEC/Pac 10/Big 12 world, but the VAST MAJORITY of colleges have a "guaranteed" 4 year scholarships dictated by their athletic department.

Coaches who are worth a **** wouldn't do this....
quote:
I do think commitments should be well thought out without any intention of breaking them.


That is really my one and only point.

The OP (as well as a good friend of mine just yesterday) had a built in intention to break it if something "better" came along.

While I am far from perfect...very, very far, I simply cannot agree with that approach to a college "commitment." And yes, I fully recognize that my sphere of influence on this issue does not extend beyond my own home.
PG Staff,

You've seen about a zillion kids get recruited, and I've seen one plus his teammates, who haven't even arrived at college yet, so I have to defer to your experience on what can go wrong.

I don't want to make the mistake of over-generalizing from my very limited experience because my son's situation didn't present him with any tough decisions to release the bird in the hand to pursue one in the bush. He received very little interest and no offers until just before senior year, at which time a bunch of offers came in at about the same time. He had the luxury of having nearly his full range of options on the table at one time. Furthermore, his dream school had already taken a good look at him and moved on, so he knew that wasn't happening. Thus, I don't want to be too judgmental of people who faced situations we haven't.

I also agree that there can be lots of legitimate reasons to de-commit: change in financial status, misrepresentation, safety, leadership change, NCAA sanctions, and others I haven't thought of but you've probably seen. I'm even open to considering the possibility that recognition of a mistake might be a valid reason to save pain all around.

What I reacted to was the proposal that it's okay to make a commitment with the full expectation of backing out of it if a better offer comes along. I believe that when you make a commitment, you should stop dreaming about your former dream school, and go forward with sincere intention to make the commitment work. I also believe you shouldn't commit unless you trust the coach enough to expect him to act in a principled manner and that you should treat him with the level of integrity you expect him to demonstrate (golden rule). If you do these things and events unfold such that you need to de-commit, you can look the coach in the eye when you explain why.

Is that a reasonable place to stand?
Last edited by Swampboy
quote:
What I reacted to was the proposal that it's okay to make a commitment with the full expectation of backing out of it if a better offer comes along. I believe that when you make a commitment, you should stop dreaming about your former dream school, and go forward with sincere intention to make the commitment work. I also believe you shouldn't commit unless you trust the coach enough to expect him to act in a principled manner and that you should treat him with the level of integrity you expect him to demonstrate (golden rule). If you do these things and events unfold such that you need to de-commit, you can look the coach in the eye when you explain why.


IMO, simply one of the very best paragraphs ever written on the hsbaseballweb. Wink
Since we haven't had any college coaches come forward and tell from their perspective how they would really feel about this hypothetical situation and since we're dealing in hypotheticals, here's one.

I'm a coach at a small D1 mid level college. I recently had a good solid young shortstop from central Florida commit to my program and I feel after a year or so, he will be a probable starter at the position. Then against all odds, it happened! I had always dreamed of having that can't miss stud show up at my doorstep and right before signing week, he did. His dad went to my school and its fairly close to the kid's home and the kid came to many games here growing up. I had recruited him knowing he was getting offers from other bigger, better DI's. But now he assures me that my school is where he wants to go. He might get drafted after 3 years but so what. Oh, by the way, he's a shortstop. I will need a spot cleared and some more money to lock him in. Guess one way I can do it is to call the other shortstop and tell him I've changed my mind about his scholarship. After all it's the dream player I've always wanted! The other kid had an offer at a DII, I'm sure they'll help him out. After all, our agreement was only verbal. I've waited twenty years for a player like the late guy.

Now, remember this is a special situation, so its really OK, right? I think you have to remember this can work both ways--no complaints if your're the one who gets burned.
quote:
Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
In NCAA Division I baseball, scholarships are from year-to-year. If a school adopts a policy that it will give a recruited athlete four, one-year grants-in-aid, it's an internal policy, not an NCAA regulation, and not able to be legally enforced.


True. But I will work off the assumption that if you look me in the eye and tell me its so...I will take your word for it because you can certainly count on mine. But keep in mind, not every coach is willing to do just that...and in an odd sense, they are being honest about it as well.
Last edited by justbaseball
quote:
Originally posted by 2013 Dad:
I will not allow my son to make a decision that will affect the rest of his life and perhaps be unhappy and leave him regretting his decision.


Then why would you allow him to commit in the first place if he was not 100% sure this was the place for him?
I don't agree with your philosophy, take the offer that comes along until something else better does. You also have that idea that most parents do before the recruiting process begins, dream school or a better program will be the best place for son.

I am going to go on the premise that you have not yet begun the recruiting process, so when the time comes I think that you might understand why there are opposing opinions here as to your statements.
I've really enjoyed this thread and everyone's participation today. 90 posts and counting and 1400 some odd views - it must have hit home with lots of people. There are grey areas here for sure and everyone has to draw a line in the sand - somewhere. Wihtout 2013 Dad's participation and others who took opposing views, I don't think the thread would have been nearly as interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by justbaseball:
quote:
What I reacted to was the proposal that it's okay to make a commitment with the full expectation of backing out of it if a better offer comes along. I believe that when you make a commitment, you should stop dreaming about your former dream school, and go forward with sincere intention to make the commitment work. I also believe you shouldn't commit unless you trust the coach enough to expect him to act in a principled manner and that you should treat him with the level of integrity you expect him to demonstrate (golden rule). If you do these things and events unfold such that you need to de-commit, you can look the coach in the eye when you explain why.


IMO, simply one of the very best paragraphs ever written on the hsbaseballweb. Wink


2013 - Don't get too excited...we don't agree very much on this topic and you know it.

I am simply perfectly happy to agree that there are obscure and rare reasons (corners) in which I would allow it. That is nothing more than common sense.

However, on the scenario you portray, over and over...we do not agree one single bit.

But there is good news...if I've done my job well and one day down the road you are in a room ready to close a business deal with one of my 6 kids...if they tell you its a deal and shake your hand...you can take it to the bank.
Last edited by justbaseball
quote:
Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
In NCAA Division I baseball, scholarships are from year-to-year. If a school adopts a policy that it will give a recruited athlete four, one-year grants-in-aid, it's an internal policy, not an NCAA regulation, and not able to be legally enforced.


If it's a University policy, why would it need to be legally enforced? The University won't let the Coach "take the money away"
Member institutions are bound by NCAA regulations, which means one-year grants-in-aid in baseball for student-athletes. Send the grant-in-aid letter with the amount and/or percentage on it and you're on the hook for it for that one year.

A university policy can change if the athletic director, chancellor or president is having a bad day and just feels like changing it. No recourse for the athlete. Your "guarantee" of a scholarship cannot be enforced. Certainly this does not happen often, but it can, and that's the point.

The proclamation that there is any such thing as a "guaranteed" four-year scholarship is simply misinformation.
3bagger....Yes. It does work both ways, absolutely. Of course I and 2013 would be upset, but such is life. Tough breaks along the way.

justbaseball....while I attempted to end this from my side on a positive note, I can't help interpreting your business deal comment as a veiled "my way is better than yours" type of comment. Based on your last post, this simply boils down to disagreeing as to which are the rare instances that would justify the decommittal.
2013 - No doubt, I do believe my way is better or why in the heck would I do it this way??

I am sure you feel the same from your point of view. Wink

But my comment about 'if I've done my job well' is indeed one of the ways I feel about this. I lost my father over 20 years ago...to this day I remember very well that many people came up to me and said, 'Your father was the most honest and ethical man I ever met.' No son could hear more comforting words. Both he and my mother, were in fact, the most honest and ethical people I've ever known...along with my wife.

While it remains a 'work in progress,' I firmly believe it is my job, my responsibility...to set a similar example and pass that tradition forward.
Last edited by justbaseball
[QUOTE]Originally posted by justbaseball:
2013 - We all know there are "corners" (exceptions) of every situation that cause one to stray from a mainstream principle. There are certainly corners of the commit/decommit that are different for different people...and we can all justify our actions if we want to bad enough.

You have outlined where your "corners" are...I get it. As a 2013 dad, you will have plenty of company I believe. If you were 2015, you would have even more company. But as one poster pointed out...there is most definitely damage on the other side (i.e. the coach's job possibly).

I (and others) have outlined our edges/corners. I full acknowledge that there could be an aspect hidden that I haven't thought of or experienced that would cause me to change my edges/corners. A significant change in school's/coach's policy on scholarship renewal may be one of those.



You seem to be unable to be objective on this issue imo. My prior post is dead on. You would decommit if something happened that you thought justified it. We just disagree as to what may justify it. That is inarguable based on what you stated in the quoted paragraph above.
Always make the best decision you can with the information you have - if you believe in your heart that you are ready to make a commitment. It has to be right for not only that point in your life, but you also have to believe that it is the right decision for your various potential futures.

But, some people get engaged only to change their mind once more information is available. Same for marriage, jobs, etc. I believe in holding to commitments, but not at all costs. And the magnitude of the decision is a big piece of it as well. We've all changed our mind about one thing or another, some of them pretty important things, once the entire situation became clearer. The dream school coming to the table brings a lot of clarity to the situation, but if there are more than a few potential dream schools then you may not be ready to make a commitment. Not saying that is the current situation but just trying to answer the original question.
quote:
You seem to be unable to be objective on this issue imo. My prior post is dead on. You would decommit if something happened that you thought justified it. We just disagree as to what may justify it. That is inarguable based on what you stated in the quoted paragraph above.


If that makes you feel better, so be it. But...read these words---->>>>you are reaching.
Last edited by justbaseball
My son is a 2012 just starting to get interest so I do not know the answer to the following question.

If things do not work out with the "dream school" and the player wants to transfer, what is his reputation with other schools that are aware that he decommitted at the last moment? Will there be plenty of schools that still want him?
That is a fair question LadsDad. My take is this: If the player transfers to another D1 he would have to sit out a year. Therefore, he would lose one of his five years. It would be highly unlikely that another transfer would take place, therefore the new coach probably would not have to worry too much about it. I'm sure the coach of the new school would take the decommitment into account. I believe if the player can help your team, a coach somewhere will take a shot. Some schools may not even look at the player, sure. But in the end, if the player will help the team win, there will definitely be a place for him somewhere. The single decommitment will not stop many coaches if the player is good enough, imo. It's not the best message to send, but it's reality.
Last edited by 2013 Dad
Not many D1 schools are willing to use part of their limited scholarship money to pay for someone who is sitting out a year. For a father who has a son who is just starting his sophomore year of high school, you have a very confident/optimistic vision of how many D1 schools will be tripping over themselves to sign him. Has he received offers already?
quote:
Originally posted by 2013 Dad:
Brickhouse...have you read the thread? This is a hypothetical. People just can't seem to see the sole issue of this entire thread, which, imo, has been stripped down to, is it ok, or would you, advise son to decommit under certain circumstances.


I believe that many of the people that have responded to you have been through the process already and are applying real life situations and experiences in their minds. You might be throwing out a hypothetical but it goes against what others have been advised throughoput their process and in the end usually against the player's eventual best interest.
TR, really?

How about this, albeit, unrealistic example...

Son commits, program comes along a couple months later and states, well, our budget has been cut, and we are getting rid of baseball in 2 years, but we really need your son to help us because I think we can win our conference this year with his help. Meanwhile another school that was on his list gives him offer.

You advise your son to still go? And I respectfully ask that you answer with a yes or no and not some explanation as to how this question is so far out there, etc.
2013dad,
What you have stated in this thread is you are okay with your son's happiness justifying and guiding the "right thing to do" despite prior commitments he might make.
I wonder how far you will go and how many hypotheticals you will provide to justify the view that your son's "happiness," identifies and justifies "what is the right thing to do.?" None of your hypos are on point, especially this one with the program being scrapped.
If an individuals "happiness" justifies a decommit from his word when provided in baseball, when does his "happiness" not justify "hedging" on his word and commitments outside of baseball?
If a player committed and after that, the coach does what the UNLV coach is reported to have done and called to say I will "honor" our commitment, but don't expect to see on AB or inning and don't even expect to see the field, the bargain has changed and the terms have mutually changed.
This is entirely different from your son's unilateral conception of "happiness" impacting and reversing a mutual commitment.
Again, you all don't get my position.

ID stated "you are okay with your son's happiness justifying and guiding the "right thing to do"

That is just not accurate...

I STATED THERE MAY BE LIMITED (AND MAYBE ONLY ONE OR TWO) SITUATIONS IN WHICH I WOULD ADVISE OR SUPPORT MY SON DECOMMITTING.

If you guys can't understand the above sentence, then I'm sorry. Barring a direct attack or question, I am done with this thread.

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