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of course a lot of it is practice and feel for the ball. Good mechanics help but you can slowly guide the ball and still have command ( not recommended - you want to use a full strong motion and still locate).

i would guess stride direction, balance and control of the lead side and head can help, but I'm not sure.

i especially ask the experts like Kyle. I'm not talking pitchers that are totally off but good pitchers: have there been studies what mechanical trait do elite control pitchers have over pitchers with mediocre control? Can control be quantified mechanically?

and what can a hard throwing pitcher that already has ok mechanics but mediocre control do to improve control without losing power? Of course a lot of practice is an answer but there are pro pitchers that throw upper 90s but never get good control ( as a reliever they still can be useful if it is not too bad). I guess those pitchers have practiced a plot, why did their control not get better?

or is control beyond solid mechanics and training just talent?

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this is a good one.....I kind of lean towards it will be hard to quantify what traits result in pitchers with good command, versus not so good....yes I understand there are some physical or mechanical attributes that would lend to being wild, but all else being equal (no real red flag mechanics) why do some have command, while others don't.....  Anything other than proven traits would just be speculation at best.  I almost wonder if this is similar to golfers that are great putters, or even in basketball, the guys that can fill up the rim from just about anywhere, compared to the guys that seemingly have the same shooting mechanics, and can't fill up the hoop like the elite shooters.  Maybe it is a combination of some guys that are able to get the "feel" of what its like to hit their spots, combined with a lot of repetitions, and finally combined with great visual / physical attributes.

It could be said that simply throwing strikes is good control.

But commanding the strike zone is all together different and even includes the ability to throw good non strikes. This is a combination of good stuff and the ability to locate.

Often good mechanics is confusing.  There are general guidelines, but not many pitchers have exactly the same mechanics.  The perfect mechanics for one pitcher may nopt be perfect for another pitcher.  The best pitching coaches use mechanical guidelines but incorporate them with a pitchers "natural" ability.  These days I think we see too many using the old cookie cutter approach to pitching and hitting.  That might work for some, even most, but definitely not for everyone.

That said I do believe good mechanics can help a pitcher improve both velocity and accuracy.  Good command to me is a result of mechanics, feel, confidence, stuff on any given day. Not very many pitchers have their best command nearly everytime out.  In that repect I suppose it is like shooting a basketball in some way... Even the best shooters have some off days.

I heard one coach describe sectioning the strike zone into quarters - and then trying to section each quarter into additional quarters - such that you end up with 16 "spots".  I suppose every pitch is not meant to be a strike so I assume there are targets outside of the strike zone, but not sure how those were incorporated into the 16 sections.

Assume width is 18 inches (technically strike zone is 17 inches) and height is 36 inches (pretty tall), that gives you 648 square inches.  16 sections each comes out to be a box approximating (big time rounding here) 4 inches wide and 8 inches tall.  Most, if not all, similar pitches (i.e. 4 seam FB) have identical mechanics with the difference being largely, if not exclusively, the release point.  And the difference in release point between two adjacent boxes would seem simply too small to appreciate and replicate.  That said, there are folks out that that can, and do, hit individual boxes at will.  

My guess is that is has something to do with "touch" and a pitcher's ability to fully appreciate his physical presence and know where he is in space - to a very high degree.  Sounds kind of mystical, but assume it can be taught.

I have never seen the pitcher that can hit his exact spot at will.  Maybe Maddux would come the closest.

Let me describe great command in a simpler way.  When you are not walking anyone and nobody is getting good swings off you... You have great command.

Sometimes it can be great stuff with good control without great location.

Sometimes it can be great location with decent stuff.

And sometimes it is great stuff and great location, those are those rare memorable games. But in every case you can't have good command and bad control.  You can't have good command and poor stuff.  You can have good control without good command.

This is all kind of confusing to describe.  How about you just know it when you see it.

PGStaff posted:

I have never seen the pitcher that can hit his exact spot at will.  Maybe Maddux would come the closest.

Let me describe great command in a simpler way.  When you are not walking anyone and nobody is getting good swings off you... You have great command.

Sometimes it can be great stuff with good control without great location.

Sometimes it can be great location with decent stuff.

And sometimes it is great stuff and great location, those are those rare memorable games. But in every case you can't have good command and bad control.  You can't have good command and poor stuff.  You can have good control without good command.

This is all kind of confusing to describe.  How about you just know it when you see it.

PG covered the bases.    I asked my son this  question, he said IHO command was when all of your stuff was working and your mechanics were just around 90%. Its very rare to really have that type of outing.  

I read once that a ML pitcher considers less than 10% of their games to be really good outings.  I found that to be unbelievablable, but that is the way it goes.

One pitcher who had a no no this year said, his stuff wasn't even working as well as he wanted.

Of course you have to give the guy catching the ball lots of credit as well!

 

Dominik85 posted:

of course a lot of it is practice and feel for the ball. Good mechanics help but you can slowly guide the ball and still have command ( not recommended - you want to use a full strong motion and still locate).

i would guess stride direction, balance and control of the lead side and head can help, but I'm not sure.

i especially ask the experts like Kyle. I'm not talking pitchers that are totally off but good pitchers: have there been studies what mechanical trait do elite control pitchers have over pitchers with mediocre control? Can control be quantified mechanically?

and what can a hard throwing pitcher that already has ok mechanics but mediocre control do to improve control without losing power? Of course a lot of practice is an answer but there are pro pitchers that throw upper 90s but never get good control ( as a reliever they still can be useful if it is not too bad). I guess those pitchers have practiced a plot, why did their control not get better?

or is control beyond solid mechanics and training just talent?

First, I would define "control" as a pitcher's consistency with velocity and amount of break for whatever the pitcher's repertoire of pitches.  You want a pitcher to be able to throw a particular pitch the way he intends to (e.g. a change up or slider that breaks a certain way consistently).  "Command" on the other hand would be the pitcher's ability to put the pitch in the location intended  (not necessarily a precise spot).  A pitcher with command wanting to throw just off the black low and away does so with a relatively small margin of error; with next pitch where he wants it at another spot like middle in.  If the pitcher can move his pitches around to the spots he wants with a high rate of consistency, then he has "command."  Anyway, that's how I see these two terms and when they're being used by coaches, players and commentators, it seems to fit what I've described.

Good throwing mechanics helps a pitcher be consistent so that they can have that control and command of their pitches.  So your guess is pretty right on, IMHO.   Stride alignment, point of release, body position relative to legs at the point of release are some of the general mechanics when consistent (combined a pitcher's talent for body control along with good conditioning of the body) will produce control and command.    And you just can't have command unless you have control too, but you can have a good amount of control (as I've defined it) and not have command.

Note too various pitchers have various arm slots.  Good mechanics does not mean an arm slot that's in the same place.  A side arm or submarine pitcher can have just as good mechanics as a pitcher with a 12 o'clock slot.  But . . . a wrong arm slot for a particular pitcher could be bad mechanics for him causing lack of control and/or command.  It's often very hard to figure that one out.

Last edited by Truman

I think until 13u or so strike percentage is a good enough measure of control but at higher levels it is about were you locate the ball. 

 

I would say command is being able to throw the ball were you want it. If the catcher doesn't have to move his glove much to catch it the pitch was good.

at the higher levels I think strike percentage is not that much of a good indicator but BB/9 is. To be an MLB starter you can't really afford to walk more than 4 per 9 innings generally. Last year almost all good starters walked around 2 or less but of course they still throw super hard. 

Last edited by Dominik85

Btw I think people overrate how precise a pitcher can throw. No pitcher, even Maddux can locate within 2-3 inches.

I think it is important that a pitcher limits the big misses ( more than a foot or Two)

but back to topic: what creates command? Is it like shooting a basketball or throwing a dart?

or could it be said that better mechanics limit the big misses and help with control but the fine control is natural talent and feel?

Last edited by Dominik85

BTW you could measure command in a lab setting:

throw to a wall from pitching distance and mark a dot as a target. Then you throw a fixed number of pitches ( maybe eliminate the two biggest misses and the two closest as outliers if you want) and measure the average distance to the dot.

maybe that would be feasible for guys like Kyle.

i think velocity is more important than command but still it is interesting how much control can be learned. If it is genetic that would be an interesting information for scouts because that would mean that the wild thrower might never learn it.

it would be cool to do the mentioned accuracy test after players are drafted and a couple years later and compare. Of course you would need to do the test several times and not just once.

As to what mechanics aid in control, OLD SCHOOL hit the nail on the head with "repeatable." This is why youngsters have a hard time with control. It's hard to get their growing bodies to develop mechanics they can repeat at an acceptable level. They are growing...daily, often. Once a pitcher is in tune with his mechanics enough that he can make minute changes in timing, grip, release, etc. that affect controlled changes in placement, velocity, and movement, he's where he strives to be. Complete achievement being practically impossible, the closer to this a pitcher can get, the better the "control."

Last edited by roothog66

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Assume width is 18 inches (technically strike zone is 17 inches) and height is 36 inches (pretty tall), that gives you 648 square inches….

 

Technically the strike zone is 17” wide for the plate plus another 2.9” on each side because the diameter of a ball is right at 2.9”. So you have 17+2.9+2.9=22.8”.

I think having command means:  pitcher is hitting his spots, generating a lot of K's, ground outs, fly outs.  Command of spots, Command of the game.

I would call "spots" as areas he's trying to get the ball to, not like throwing darts.  Throwing dart like would be too precise (I think), promoting  to guide the pitch and not trust your release.  If you're trying to throw a high fast ball to get the batter to swing and you end up throwing it right over the plate, you just missed your spot.  The batter likely punished you for missing your spot.  The pitcher is lacking command.

Developing and practicing good mechanics puts you in strong position to repeat good mechanics under pressure - game time.  You have a chance to hit your spots to produce outs.  

BUT - like any competition:  the mental game.  You can have the best and very repeatable mechanics, but if you're not dialed in to the immediate part of the game, able to avoid distraction, you're not going to have much Command, you won't be on the mound long.

Great athletes have the mental ability to get in and stay in the "zone".  The mental zone allowing your great mechanics, athleticism, game IQ to work when you need it to.  Any great athlete, great trader....   

Dominik85 posted:

BTW you could measure command in a lab setting:

throw to a wall from pitching distance and mark a dot as a target. Then you throw a fixed number of pitches ( maybe eliminate the two biggest misses and the two closest as outliers if you want) and measure the average distance to the dot.

maybe that would be feasible for guys like Kyle.

i think velocity is more important than command but still it is interesting how much control can be learned. If it is genetic that would be an interesting information for scouts because that would mean that the wild thrower might never learn it.

it would be cool to do the mentioned accuracy test after players are drafted and a couple years later and compare. Of course you would need to do the test several times and not just once.

You can be sure in pro ball they uses all kinds of pitching charts and would expect they do compare in order to evaluate progress if progress is something they want to look at.  There's technology out now that provides data on just about every aspect of pitching and hitting (e.g. spin rate, amount of movement, etc.) 

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roothog66 posted:

As to what mechanics aid in control, OLD SCHOOL hit the nail on the head with "repeatable." This is why youngsters have a hard time with control. It's hard to get their growing bodies to develop mechanics they can repeat at an acceptable level. They are growing...daily, often. Once a pitcher is in tune with his mechanics enough that he can make minute changes in timing, grip, release, etc. that affect controlled changes in placement, velocity, and movement, he's where he strives to be. Complete achievement being practically impossible, the closer to this a pitcher can get, the better the "control."

This.

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