What message does this send?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Glove Man


I know full well that alcohol is a depressent but nobody can tell me that the likes of Ruth,Mantle didnt thrive on booze---in Mantle's case it killed a lot of his physical pain---trust me I can recall the nites I elbowed up with the likes of Mantle, Martin, Bauer etc---booze for them was a performance enhancer because they could not perform without it in their blood

I don't know where you came up with the idea that alcohol is a "performance enhancer"? Because the likes of Mantle, Martin, and Bauer let you buy them drinks surely don't qualify you as an expert on their lifes.

Mantle had many things psychologicly wrong with him from his dirt poor upbringing in rural Oklahoma. Martin was more or less a sociopacthic alcoholic, among other mental issues. Bauer liked to drink so much, he owned a liqour store in Kansas City.

I can't envision playing a night game and drinking until I couldn't stand up, then going out and playing a doubleheader the next day and feeling like I was ready to perform. I'm sure banging the asprin bottle is a sign of confidence in my teammates that I'm up and atom!

Heck if alcohol was that good for them, they would have a few belts before the game started. Not the night before and with no sleep to boot.

Back to Byrd…

Just some thoughts

It seems as though some are saying that HGH is the reason Byrd has been successful and worth so much money. Do steroids and HGH make a pitcher more accurate? Byrd is not a power pitcher, he is a finesse pitcher. Does HGH give someone more finesse or add movement to a mid 80s fastball?

Anyway, we usually associate performance enhancing drugs with strength, speed and power, at least when it comes to results. Most obvious would be power hitters and power pitchers.

So other than the advantage of helping to recover from an injury, what do the singles hitters, and soft tossers actually gain from steroids or HGH? Would someone like Wakefield gain anything by using steroids? Would his knuckle ball get better?

Of course, there’s the possible intent involved and the fact that it was very suspicious if not illegal. I’m just trying to figure out exactly how Byrd greatly improved his ability by HGH.

I understand that this stuff is out of hand and should be cleaned up. Also believe that big strides are being made despite what people say.

One more question… Steroids and HGH are generally used for health reasons. Illness and injury are reasons that steroids are prescribed. I’d venture a guess that many of us have been given a prescription (legally) for some form of steroids. I do understand that this is completely different than using steroids as an enhancement, but what about recovery from an injury? If an athlete were to take steroids legally prescribed in order to help recover from a serious injury and only for that purpose… would people be so up in arms? Would people claim that was cheating? I think they would if that player went on to set some records.

Is anything natural anymore? I walk into a convenience store and see all kinds of energy drinks, pills sold right over the counter to keep you awake and alert, coolers full of beer, all kinds of tobacco. And all this stuff is legal! And some of it can and has killed people!

A Cardinals pitcher was killed in a car accident last year. The reported major cause was BOOZE! He died because of alcohol not steroids. Luckily, he didn’t take other innocent people with him. So if we are going to use the health card, let’s use it across the board. Why doesn’t MLB ban the use of alcohol? It’s proven to kill people. I forgot… It is legal! It was once illegal, but that didn’t stop us, we would get it anyway. So they made this very dangerous substance legal! Which is just fine as far as I'm concerned.

BTW

The Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, the years 1920 to 1933, during which alcohol sale, manufacture and transportation were constitutionally banned throughout the United States.

Guess who played and set records during that period of time? Yes, Babe did it on hot dogs and beer. ILLEGAL beer!!! Maybe not a performance enhancer, but definitely ILLEGAL! Yet, people joke and love him for this illegal activity.

What if steroids become legal in 20 years?

JIMI

Again I say your handle is a grave insult to one of the greatest guitarists ever to live


But you also need to read better than you do---where did I say I bought them drinks---I said I rubbed elbows with them a number of times---amazing how simple minds come up with what they want to

Are not pian killer shots and cortisone shots performance enhancers ? And they are legal


Think about how many players get cortisone shots on a regular basis

quote:

PGStaff posted: So other than the advantage of helping to recover from an injury, what do the singles hitters, and soft tossers actually gain from steroids or HGH? Would someone like Wakefield gain anything by using steroids? Would his knuckle ball get better?

Apparently the recooperative powers of the stuff is ample reason for using. Byrd started using when he was injured and used after surgery. If you can't play you can't get paid. HGH reverses or slows the aging process, as in speeding recovery from chonic use, i.e. pitching regularly.

If it's legal and controlled at the professional level, how long before crazy amateur parents are juicing their kids. Not very long. It all needs to go away via an Olympic quality testing program with lifetime bans after the second offense.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Are not pian killer shots and cortisone shots performance enhancers ? And they are legal


Think about how many players get cortisone shots on a regular basis

That was a silly statement. Cortisone shots aid in healing, and quite different than HGH or other steroids used illegally for quick recovery or for enhancing ones performance.

As far as drinking illegal beer, not sure it was used for purpose of recovery or to look like a stud.

Maybe someday these certain type of steroids will be used medically for getting back to the game faster than traditional therapy.

What I find very offensive is a player who preaches he has never used such measures to regain his health (or whatever reason) and then we find out he did.

That sends a very bad message.

TPM

Silly in your mind perhaps but not mine---cortisone is a performance enhancer whether you like it or not---the player would not be on the field without it-- so are painkillers

HGH as purportedly used in Byrd's case was also for healing

Steroids with prescription are used in healing as well

the cortizone class are anti-nflamatory ... anabolic class build muscle mass

BEE

You are , as always, correct, you are never wrong, BUT if you read again I am talking about performance enhancers.


By the way for your future reference---the proper spelling is cortisone

I am going to stick by my original statment, the cortisone and the doses recommended and PRESCRIBED by a team doctor are a lot different for your asthma than the type used by players mentioned.

TPM

What does asthma have to do with cortisone shots in the joints?

quote:

by TR: You are , as always, correct, you are never wrong, BUT if you read again I am talking about performance enhancers.

By the way for your future reference---the proper spelling is cortisone

thanks for the clarification

btw .. I once thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken

OK, I get it now.

So the cortisone injections given to Bigpapi's knee during the World Series enhanced his performance?

I can just see it now.

RED SOX 2007 WORLD CHAMPS*



Bee,
Shame on you for using a Z instead of an S.

So thats why my Rockies lost! Big Pappi was cheating!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

What does asthma have to do with cortisone shots in the joints?

Same stuff, different form.

Frank, now you know the REAL truth!

TPM

And those enhancers are legal---if you cannot walk and a legal shot of cortisone helps you get on the field---WHY NOT !!!!


I also think your statement "same stuff different form" is totally erroneous and misleading for the readers

Dr. Rizzi, I presume?

quote:

Originally posted by FrankF:
So thats why my Rockies lost! Big Pappi was cheating!!!

Well, not quite. He wasn't actually allowed any shots during the playoffs. He had taken his quota during the regular season. The last one right before the playoffs. They won fair and square(ish), pending the Mitchell Report. According to reports, 11 current free agents have been interviewd for the Mitchell Report and are have been caught dirty. I'm guessing the Mitchell report list is long.

"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'"- Junior Johnson

Dad04,

I am sorry I thought that they had said that Bigpapi had to have shots every other day for pain in his knee. Not suer when it was. Just fooling around to make a point.

TR,
Cortisone injected by a doctor and taken for astham or to reduce swelling is used for anti inflammatory purposes. The pill one takes for reducing inflammation in the lungs (for asthmatics) and for a bad knee is the same, in a different form. It is not the same as HGH.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
It seems as though some are saying that HGH is the reason Byrd has been successful and worth so much money. Do steroids and HGH make a pitcher more accurate? Byrd is not a power pitcher, he is a finesse pitcher. Does HGH give someone more finesse or add movement to a mid 80s fastball?

Of course, there’s the possible intent involved and the fact that it was very suspicious if not illegal. I’m just trying to figure out exactly how Byrd greatly improved his ability by HGH.

It's east to figure out. Byrd came back from injuries, used HGH, and is making big bucks as a mid-80's mph pitcher. If he hadn't used HGH, he may only be a mid-70's mph pitcher, and would most like ly be out of the game.

He made a $25,000 investment in his career by buying HGH from a dentist. He's made a return of millions of dollars off of that investment.

Same principle of why a singles hitter would use steroids or HGH..if you don't use it, and bat .225, you won't be around long. Pick your strength and batspeed up a few notches, have 2 or 3 extra basehits per week go through the infield, and you're batting .295 instead of .225. You sign a new contract for several million bucks, and "voila"..nice return on your investment.

If you have "warning track power"...use HGH or steroids...add 20-40 feet to your hits..(a modest amount)...increase your HR totals from 5 or 6 to 18..and sign a big contract.

If you have Barry Bonds or ARod talent, that extra strength and batspeed gained by HGH or steroids makes a huge difference...pad your stats dramatically, and instead of making a paltry 2 or 3 million per year, you're looking at 15, 20, or 30 million bucks per year.

2seamer,

That all makes sense, but do you really believe that Paul Byrd threw in the mid 70s before he bought the HGH? He played at LSU and was a 4th round draft pick. He was barely over 6-0 tall. Surely you don't think he was a mid 70s pitcher.

Maybe he never was a 90+ type pitcher, I truthfully don't know, but we know how he throws now and I doubt he threw any slower than that before he was injured and bought the HGH.

So my question once again... Can HGH give a pitcher better control and more finesse? I really don't think it added any velocity on his part. Did he use it just to recover quicker from injury? Not saying that's right either, just trying to figure out how and how much the HGH might have helped him.

As a 21 year old long before the HGH thing, he was 14-6 in AA ball. 3.01 ERA, 152 IP, 122 hits, 118 strikeouts, and 75 walks. This year for Cleveland he struckout 88 and walked 38. In 2006 he struckout 102 and walked 28.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

Silly in your mind perhaps but not mine---cortisone is a performance enhancer whether you like it or not---the player would not be on the field without it-- so are painkillers

HGH as purportedly used in Byrd's case was also for healing

Steroids with prescription are used in healing as well

TR, you and I have been around and around with this subject the last couple of years, and it's obvious that you still don't have a clue what you're talking about. You keep spewing the same nonsense about a very serious subject..something that's particularly concerning when you did (or still do) coach young players that need all the guidance they can get.

Alcohol is not a performance enhancer. Just because a belly full of booze makes you feel 10 ft tall and bulletproof, doesn't make it so. Dock Ellis threw a no-hitter while high on LSD...would you contend LSD is a performance enhancer? I don't think so.

Cortisone or pain shots aren't performance enhancers. They're masking agents. All they do is temporarily mask a problem...damage is still being done to those areas if a player plays after getting a shot.

There's a major difference in anabolic steroids, and corticosteroids. That's why you don't see 80 yr olds with lung problems have the body of Charles Atlas. Those two types of drugs work totally differently.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
2seamer,

That all makes sense, but do you really believe that Paul Byrd threw in the mid 70s before he bought the HGH? He played at LSU and was a 4th round draft pick. He was barely over 6-0 tall. Surely you don't think he was a mid 70s pitcher.

Maybe he never was a 90+ type pitcher, I truthfully don't know, but we know how he throws now and I doubt he threw any slower than that before he was injured and bought the HGH.

So my question once again... Can HGH give a pitcher better control and more finesse? I really don't think it added any velocity on his part. Did he use it just to recover quicker from injury? Not saying that's right either, just trying to figure out how and how much the HGH might have helped him.

I remember Byrd when he was with the Braves in 1997-1998. As I remember, he never was a power pitcher then..seems like I remember him being a mid-80's guy at most on his best day.

It's interesting, if you look at his career, in 1999 he set his initial career high for innings thrown..and his ERA started climbing, jumping again in 2000 to 6.51. He was traded to Kansas City. 2002 was the year he started using HGH. That year he threw his career high innings, 228, with an ERA of 3.9, his best statistical year as a starter.

That got him a contract with the Braves, but he had to miss 2003 and most of 2004 with Tommy John surgery.

To answer your question, HGH won't improve a picher's control. It will add velocity, and that added strength may help add a bit of movement to the ball. He's still a finesse pitcher...I've seen him in games throwing 80 mph fastballs..so it's highly possible that without HGH, he may be throwing in the 70's. To add to that, he may very well still be using HGH, because MLB doesn't test for it. One thing for sure..he's got 7.5 million reasons for doing it...one for every dollar of that contract.

I am, through this post, going to try and illustrate where I see the issue of MLB, the Indians and Byrd.
Let us assume a top rated showcase player who is age 17 this Fall and who has several DI offers is reading this thread. He has been having significant shoulder pain, has had an MRI and it shows a slight tear in his labrum and fraying of the cuff. The ortho doctor is telling him he does not need surgery but does need intense PT and strengthening/stabalization.
When he finds this out, he discloses it to the DI's and his two top tell him they will wait and see how things develop during his high school season.
Over the winter, he works religiously and the pain remains.
Come January, knowing Byrd used HGH as did several others who were trying to "recuperate" from injury at the ML level, he learns it is available through the internet, with a prescription, but that can be managed.
What would we advise that young man?
Would we advise him to order the HGH over the internet to maximize his chances of recovery in search of that DI schollie? What does the Byrd/MLB issue tell us he will learn and might do.
For whatever it is worth, I read a summary of an interview with a researcher at Stanford. His focus is growth factor, not growth hormone, and it's potential for healing.
Here is the quote:
" I thought Allan Mishra, a surgeon at the Menlo Medical Clinic and an adjunct professor at Stanford, might be one of them. He is researching something called platelet-enriched plasma and its effect on damaged tendons. Platelets are the clotting element in blood, and Mishra said a high concentration of them near a wound appears to trick the body into sending growth factors, a healing agent, to the site.

But there is, Mishra points out, a substantial difference between growth factor and growth hormone, which can induce powerful changes in the entire body. He won't rule out the possibility that synthetic HGH could be an effective healing agent, but if anyone has ever conducted a study on the subject, he hasn't heard of it. So for now, he has no interest in testing the hormone's potential.

"I haven't done that, nor would I do it, because I think it's unethical," Mishra said."

So, with Growth factor being that which is under study and a research professor saying HGH has neither been studied and he would not do it because of the "ethics" and side effects, what would we tell this high school senior?
Would we provide him similar guidance and justification that is available for Paul Bryd.
In his mind, I would think, that DI schollie is somewhat similar to what is paid by MLB.
What would we want that young man, who probably isn't all that hypothetical, to know?

I would tell him to stay away from that stuff! Go talk to a doctor about his condition and his concerns.

I wouldn't tell him that this is what Paul Byrd did, because I don't know what Paul Byrd did. We only know he purchased more HGH than he could possibly ever use. Maybe he was a dealer for all we know.

In the end I would say lets see what happens to Paul Byrd once all the smoke clears. Others have forfeited large contracts in the past.

infielddad,

I think all your concerns are very legitimate. I just don't quite see the message as being as strong as you think it is. We are in the middle of an important educational time regarding steroids, HGH, etc. Never before has the subject received so much attention. In the end, I think education will overcome what some player has done or gotten away with.

Babe Ruth hit more HRs than the rest of the league. Did all the young children start buying illegal beer and eat tons of hotdogs? Geez, maybe they did!

I do think we need to keep fighting this and I respect you doing just that.

quote:

infielddad posted: In his mind, I would think, that DI schollie is somewhat similar to what is paid by MLB.
What would we want that young man, who probably isn't all that hypothetical, to know?

He should know that while nothing great comes cheaply or easily, trying to pound a square peg in a round hole using a needle does not work. Cheaters need to pay a price and go away.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
JIMI

Again I say your handle is a grave insult to one of the greatest guitarists ever to live


But you also need to read better than you do---where did I say I bought them drinks---I said I rubbed elbows with them a number of times---amazing how simple minds come up with what they want to

I have a very good idea if you were elbow to elbow with them at any bar, they weren't paying for your tab, or their's for that matter. So, I did the math and came to the conclusion I did. I can only imagine you hangin' at all the hot spots in Upper Manhatten and the Village.

You think alcohol is a "performance enchancer". Yeah, I'm the one with the simple mind.

I can see you are a thorn in many a poster's side, but you got to be tougher than this to pierce my skin.

2seamer

Sorry I am not as intelligent as you ---- but you are entitled to your opinions just as I am to mine

By the way what I believe is happening with players in the pros and what I preach to my players are two different things

By the way if you mask the pain and do not feel the pain thus enabling you to take the field is that not a performance enhancer?

JIMI

Don't make assumptions that you have no basis to make

I just wish I was intelligent as many of you think you are

Doesn't matter what is preached.
Young players know what is going on.They know that they have worked hard and sacrificed for baseball most of their young lives and they are willing to do what ever it takes to get to the next level. Parents and coaches have instilled it in them, "work hard and do what it takes"
If pro baseball doesn't think there is any thing wrong with a little "help" why should they, Its not a short cut, it's not cheating ,your just doing what needs to be done, what every body else does.
Its time for MLB to stop enabling cheaters.MLB has to step up and require yr round testing for HGH and other drugs.

As far as the argument that the old time baseball players drank, did greenies etc. Remember what your mother taught you "Two wrongs don't make a right"

njbb

Not talking right or wrong---just talking what is and what was--

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
2seamer

Sorry I am not as intelligent as you ---- but you are entitled to your opinions just as I am to mine

By the way what I believe is happening with players in the pros and what I preach to my players are two different things

By the way if you mask the pain and do not feel the pain thus enabling you to take the field is that not a performance enhancer?

This has nothing to do with intelligence..it has to do with doing some research. An intelligent person can skip the research, and look foolish..an uneducated person can do research and look brilliant.

Facts are facts..opinions aren't. If you post opinions that are baseless, it does two things. 1) It makes you look foolish if you're wrong, and 2) someone may take your opinion at face value, because they think you know what you're talking about.

You need to look at what's happening in the pros, and preach to your players based on that. Why? The temptation is strong..use a steroid or HGH, and it may mean making an elite travel team, getting a better scholarship offer, a chance to be drafted, a chance to move from A ball to AA ball, or the chance to sign a 7.5 million dollar contract. If you think that there aren't kids taking these substances with the blessings of their parents, then you're sadly mistaken.

No, pain shots, or cortisone shots, are masking agents. If they were performance enhancers, then any player could arbitrarily use them, and see better results.

As an illustration, booze is a masking agent. If you come home to your wife slobbering drunk convinced you're the second coming of Don Juan, then that masking agent isn't a performance enhancer.

However, bring her a card and flowers for no reason, and tell her that she's the best thing that's ever happened to you..now that's a performance enhancer.

quote:

Originally posted by 2seamer:

As an illustration, booze is a masking agent. If you come home to your wife slobbering drunk convinced you're the second coming of Don Juan, then that masking agent isn't a performance enhancer.

However, bring her a card and flowers for no reason, and tell her that she's the best thing that's ever happened to you..now that's a performance enhancer.

2seamer,

Now I know what I was doing wrong the last 25 years. LOL

Mantle, Ruth, Martin.

All great baseball legends. I like them all. I respect them all. I enjoyed them all...either through watching them or reading about them.

But to make the argument that their drinking helped them or enhanced their perfomance just isn't plausiblie IMO. Nope, there's no way to prove what I think nor what someone who says it did thinks, but I do not accept the premise that they played better baseball because of their lifestyle.

Lets put the baseball performance aside for a moment however, and ask the questions:

* Did they each die (relatively) young because of their drinking?

Billy Martin most certainly did (car accident on Christmas day while heavily drunk). Mickey Mantle probably did and said so. He even had a kid who suffered from substance abuse and died very young. Babe Ruth died (relatively) young too...from cancer. Did his lifestyle contribute? Probably, but we cannot prove it.

* While they each had terrific careers, would they have played or managed longer and broken more records without the self-destructive lifestyle?

And what about your own kids? Your travel team players?

* If your son told you, "Mom/Dad, I got drunk because it relaxes me and helps my performance the next day," what would you say?

* If a kid on your travel team got caught with booze in his hotel room and used a similar excuse...what would you say?

I understand Mantle possibly suffered from depression, maybe Martin too. Ruth probably suffered from a lack of discipline. These are real issues and there are alternative (non-alchoholic) ways to deal with it.

I will also say that I enjoy a glass of wine with dinner or a beer with a burger. I probably drank too much myself when I was in college. And no, I am not naive when it comes to my own kids. But performance enhancement? No, no way! I say these guys performed IN SPITE of their substance abuse. I think they would have been even better without it!

So to suggest that these players 'benefitted' from alchohol abuse is irresponsible IMO for this website where hundreds, if not thousands of young teenage ballplayers read our comments. My older son had a teammate in HS who was an alchoholic. He was a key player on a good team. He sometimes threw up in the dugout and his performance was horrible after a drinking binge. I once convinced the coach not to suspend him after an episode because his family was a good family and I thought if he was given a break, he'd straighten up and fly right...I wonder if I did the wrong thing? He was a D1 talent who never put it together consistently enough to get noticed and lasted only a year at a JC. I can assure you that his parents and coaches were, and probably still are, tormented by it all.

So lets talk about this 'intelligently,' without emotion. Lets consider who reads our words. Lets look at the big picture and remember that Mantle, Ruth and Martin probably paid the ultimate price for their indiscretions and remember that we'd probably NEVER advise our own children to follow their lifestyle.

to quote Mantle himself:
"God gave me everything and I blew it. For the kids out there, don't be like me!"

Alcohol is no less destructive - and perhaps even more destructive - than the new wave garbage that the Bonds and Giambi's and the rest of these cheaters and liars have been putting into their body.

Hopefully - all the young players that read this site will look around at the wasted lives and pain that alcohol - and the rest of this garbage - has generated.

That should be enough information for any young man or woman to base their future decisions on. IMO

There's a reason why the language has lots of different words; they mean different things.

Don't confuse performance enhancers (giving more muscle mass, strength, etc) and performance enablers (masking pain, giving false courage, not being as tired).

Just trying to clarify.

Some of those enablers are medically prescribed for legitimate reasons by legitimate doctors; some are smoke and mirrors, some are illegal.

justbaseball, deldad, its, njbb, Orlando:
Those are powerful posts, IMO.
This is one of the reasons this site can be contagious, at times. Powerful thoughts. Different viewpoints. Awfully fine people.

Evrryone is entitled to their opinions-- we dont have to all agree---I still like my side of the street


In fact just found a food vendor selling my scallops wrapped in bacon with garlic

Justbasball, I agree.

Several years ago we were putting together a weight training program together for son. Trainer stressed to me how important it was for son not to drink during training (or other drugs). He explained its effects on training, I don't remember the details but it was all bad. I didn't really need a trainer to tell me this (I have had more than a few myself), but he was specific to the cellular level.

Mik may have drank to enhance performance off the field, but on the field no way. I think he would have been better. IMO

TR. The guy on my side of the street has has fontinella cheese stuffed filet........hmm

We are grown adults. We know the deal. We can decide to believe and feel about it anyway we want to. What message does this send to our kids? That will be decided by the personal examples we set in the way we live our lives and the way we communicate with our kids.

The fact is most people that go to pro baseball games have no clue. They have never played. Never coached. And are frankly clueless and dont care. Look at the polls they take. We are the exception not the rule. We hate cheaters because we dont want our kids to have to compete against cheaters and possibly be beat out of an opportunity by a cheater. And we know how competitive our kids are and how bad they want it so we dont want to them to feel pressured into cheating as well. And we love the game and we hate anything that hurts the game. Plus we want to know its real. We dont want to have to wonder. MLB still is not doing what it needs to do. You get caught you are gone! You cheat you dont compete! Thats sounds pretty cool I just made that one up, YOU CHEAT YOU DONT COMPETE! Now thats a good one.

quote:

YOU CHEAT YOU DONT COMPETE!

Johnny Cochran would be proud Coach May, and I agree. MLB has not done nearly enough to stop the violation of one of the most basic tenets of the game- fairness - and the public relations nightmare that sits in Selig's lap grows bigger every day. Soon the Mitchell report comes out. What's he gonna do?

quote:

I still like my side of the street

TR, On your side of the street, what would you tell the 17 year old, who has already had the max number of cortisone shots to his shoulder, and who is trying to recover from a shoulder injury to show well for DI caoches, about his using HGH to heal?

therein lies the problem, you see things as a "pure fan of the game"

MLB ... one of the most basic tenets of the game - fairness - - PROFIT -

Soon the Mitchell report comes out. What's he (Selig) gonna do? ...

he will see it before we do and just make the necessary changes

infield dad

I never said we did that on my side of the street---PLEASE---read my posts and read them carefully-

What is the MAX Number of cortisone shots??? Do you know ? I don't !!!

bee ---FINALLY WE AGREE

Mitchell has ownership ties

Selig has ownership ties

that means lets keep making money

Personally, I'm not as hard over against the use of HGH - in the past, as I am against the use of steroids. I'm dead set against it now and since it was banned by MLB because it is against the rules.

It has been known for a long time that steroids were a performance enhancer and illegal. They have significant side effects. It has only been relatively recently that HGH was even felt to be a performance enhancer and the side effects are much longer term. HGH is also relatively easy to get a prescription for relative to steroids.

As far as the use of cortisone and other anti-inflammatories they do not enhance performance. They simply allow the body to temporarily perform up to it's normal capabilities by reducing inflammation. In the long run, cortisone and other anti-inflammatories tend to reduce performance. Just ask Koufax. Anti-inflammatories are well accepted within sports and medical practice. There's a big difference between using medicine to return the body to it's normal function and trying to use medicine to enhance performance. I would never castigate someone who needs TJ surgery for having the procedure done. I would like to have the parent who tries to get the procedure done to add that mythical 3 or 4 mph shot. That's the difference between using medicine where necessary and to enhance performance.

TR, I asked what would you tell that young man on your side of the street?
And yes, there is a max number for shoulder conditions. It is 3 within, I believe a 12 month period. More than that carries risks for damage to the structural integrity of the shoulder.

FWIW, Here is how I see the problem… It is very, very complex!!! It can not be solved overnight. There are way too many things involved. The easy part is seeing it as cheating, the hard part is “legally” solving the problem. Let’s don’t call for a witch hunt!

I’ve mentioned this before, but what about the “players union”? Why don’t people blame them just as much as the commissioner’s office? There is a lot of negotiation that takes place that we are not aware of regarding protecting players. That negotiation also pertains to rules and penalties regarding those players!

Why not blame our legal system for not punishing these players? After all, it’s been said many times that even though it might have been legal in baseball at one time, it was always against the law! Why aren’t they out there arresting these players and putting them behind bars? Yet, we expect the commissioner’s office to solve this problem right away.

It’s easy to say things like you do this and you’re banned for life, but that’s easier said than done for those in charge of solving the problem. It’s like saying those who have used, or accused of using steroids, no longer have any rights. Sometimes things have to be done one step at a time according to the law.

The truth is… Many players have been severely punished by having their names tarnished and drug through the mud. Some who would be sure hall of famers. Yet we act like they are getting rewarded and getting away with it. Ask Rafael Palmeiro, how wonderful he has been feeling about everything that has taken place. He’s a guy with 569 HRs and over 3,000 hits. Did he come out of it unscathed? Sometimes the punishment can come from public perception and it can be very damaging.

We talk in terms of how much money these players make. There are other things beside money that are important. Things like your reputation and your honor. How much money would it take for a person to disregard all the bad things that the rest of the world has to say about them? Maybe OJ got away with it and has millions of dollars… Who would want to trade places with him? He is an example of how public perception can be very powerful and even more unforgiving than the legal system. Then again, he was facing the death penalty… maybe a bad example!

To me, it is very obvious that people are working on trying to solve this problem. It probably will not affect the younger generation once they see what has happened to so many who were involved. If some young player were risking taking steroids today, he would have to be one very stupid person who has his head buried in the sand! Yes, there are some, but times have changed for the better! IMO

PG,
I have brought up the Player's Union on several occasions and their stance on no blood testing (only way you can detect HGH). But someone said here that MLB has not been strong enough to force them on the issue. Aren't we talking about one of the most powerful unions in the country.

I also hope what you say is true, that the young players will see that not only does it pose health risks but can hurt in other ways.

IMO, you can't go backwards, have to move forward and that begins with,IMO, the education and strict penalities for those just beginning their pro careers. Time to turn over a whole new generation of non users, since we do not know and will never know who did and who didn't. That goes for the foreign players as well, the young guys at 16, 17 who look like the incredible hulk.

I think it's ironic though, I have noticed that MLB players's' bodies have changed (smaller), players are taking longer to recover. Am I the only one who has noticed that?

Im not as smart as you guys. I surely do not have the answers to these questions. But I do know this. MLB knew they had a problem. They chose to ignore it until the problem became to big to ignore. So now we can move forward. Who is in charge of the game itself? The union or MLB? Here is a fact. These guys are fighting for their lives. The desire to get into the league and the desire to stay in the league is more important to many than their health. Many will take the approach "I will worry about that later". Or "He used for years and it didnt hurt him." Or "I would rather take the chance and make than not use and not make it".

The punishment must be so severe and certain that it over takes the desire to take the chance. And folks when you talking about wanting something as bad as these guys want this the punishment must be bordering on Outrageous. A suspension or a year long ban is the type of punishment that will send shock waves through the club houses. That is not enough. You must drop an Atomic Bomb on these guys and scare the he ll out of them. All the way down to the HS ranks.

I dont know all the ins and outs of Unions and MLB regulations and this and that. All I know is if the reward is worth the risk people will take the risk. But I do know if the risk is not worth the reward then guess what? People will finally get it. Until them nothing is really going to change. It might sound cruel. But to me what is cruel is a guy doing the right thing and he gets punished for not cheating. And the guy cheating after he has made his millions saying how bad he was humiliated. Are you humiliated enough to send a check to the guy you beat out because he didnt cheat? Bet not.

great posts

just a little aside. interesting article. I wonder who is paying the legal fees. my guess is the MLB players union.

Report: Florida clinic files motion to seal patient records
ESPN.com news services

Updated: November 8, 2007, 4:56 PM ET
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Lawyers for an anti-aging clinic involved in the Albany County (N.Y) steroids investigation wants its patient records sealed, according to a published report, and it is going to court to achieve that goal.


The New York Daily news reported Thursday that the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center has filed a motion in Florida state court to seal their patient records after many athletes names have surfaced in recent weeks as having bought steroids from the company.

That motion is scheduled to be heard Tuesday.

The filing goes on to claim that medical records for their patients were illegally shared with the NFL, Major League Baseball and the media.


"It seems to me this information was leaked in violation of patients' rights," David Holland, a lawyer for the clinic, told the paper.



Veteran baseball players Jose Guillen, Matt Williams and Ismael Valdez purchased thousands of dollars worth of steroids and human growth hormone from the Florida clinic, according to a report this week in the San Francisco Chronicle.

Well said coach,

QUOTE]PG: We talk in terms of how much money these players make. There are other things beside money that are important. Things like your reputation and your honor. [/QUOTE]

Where is the honor in taking drugs/steroids to enhance performance?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

The truth is… Many players have been severely punished by having their names tarnished and drug through the mud. Some who would be sure hall of famers. Yet we act like they are getting rewarded and getting away with it. Ask Rafael Palmeiro, how wonderful he has been feeling about everything that has taken place. He’s a guy with 569 HRs and over 3,000 hits. Did he come out of it unscathed? Sometimes the punishment can come from public perception and it can be very damaging.IMO

PG, I fully agree this is a very complicated issue with many moving parts and legal issues involved.
But that should not preclude MLB/Bud and the Indians from "publicly" taking a position. They can say that Byrd acted within the rules at that time, if that is true, but they don't condone it. For the Indians to say they did not even consider it and for MLB to be silent is where I am having a problem.
On the Palmeiro issue, when I visualize him sitting before the Senate, wagging his finger with indignation, while under oath and with steroids in his system, that, for me, shows the depth of the issue. The guy is sitting there with steroids in his system and testifying, with tenacity, under oath to things that are false.
And then he throws Tejada and his teammates under the bus.
IMO, Palmeiro should be an example that isn't forgotten. I do think, from a business view, too many would rather him be forgotten than remembered.

I wonder how many players have walked away who were MLB material that said, I don't care if everyone else is/was doing it I will not?

I think this is where we as parents come in and what we teach and preach to our young kids. Nothing is ever worth risking your integrity or your health to play at a higher level. We have instilled this in our kids, no matter what they do for a living. We as parents can only hope that the need to achieve their goals for personal gain is greater than monetary gain.

I think that some folks don't do that, maybe not the ones who post here, but many parents pressure their kids to beleive that they have to be the best, achieve highest they can in this profession to make lots of $$. As a parent with very young players, there should never be a discussion about how much money he could make someday. Young players have no clue about the business of baseball and neither do their folks, the business side should come later, when the player is old enough to understand exactly what it's all about. I am not sure my son really understood it all until he reached college, met players, former players and coaches who played pro ball and then it was his choice to decide which direction he wanted to go. Yeah he always said he wanted to play baseball for a living, but not sure if he understood if that was really what he wanted to be a part of. Still, the reality of what goes on isn't there until you first walk onto the field and do it for a living.

I have seen the pressure that parents lay on their kids, many aren't even playing anymore, and surprisingly enough, some of whom I have seen find success are from the ones you least expect it from, not sure if it is because of different attitude (whatever will be will be) or that they know and understand how hard this business is, and not making it is not considered failure, they have other interests in their lives and realize their is life after baseball. My son has a friend who was drafted high, happy go lucky and nothing bothers him, he has achieved quick success in his short time in the minor leagues, and I think it's because of his great attitude.


And I agree with IFD's post, I think what galls us the most, is those that say they never cheated, then we find out they did. That's an integrity issue, most likely the worst offense I can think of, even worse that taking the stuff.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
It’s easy to say things like you do this and you’re banned for life, but that’s easier said than done for those in charge of solving the problem. It’s like saying those who have used, or accused of using steroids, no longer have any rights. Sometimes things have to be done one step at a time according to the law.

I'm sure one of our lawyers here can help me out with this --- but, according to what law? You can't fire somebody because of race, gender, or religion (I say that as if there aren't ways around that ) But the rights we have as citizens deal, for the most part, with what our government can't do to us.

Employers, however, can establish their own standards. (Hence the need for Unions, but I digress.....slightly.) People take drug tests every day to get a job, may even have to take them periodically to keep that job. Should they test positive for illegal drugs and get canned, do you think their rights are being infringed? Then why are pro athletes so precious?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
JIMI

Don't make assumptions that you have no basis to make

I just wish I was intelligent as many of you think you are

Not to be rude, but when you say you elbowed up with the likes of Mantle, Martin and Bauer, what would you like for me to assume? The only other possible answer is that you were with "other" people that were "like" Mantle, Martin and Bauer, but they had different names.

If you would like to elaborate more on your statement as to what I'm getting wrong, it would make the game of 20 questions go faster.

To make a long story short, your assumption that alcohol in any way, shape or form helped them or any athlete cope with injuries is ludicris. That doesn't speak very highly of the athletes that performed at high levels that had injuries and didn't hit the booze.

Plain and simple the three you mentioned were "nursing" injuries 365 days a year and long after they retired from playing. If you think your argument is valid, that's fine. But when it is you against the world, bet on the world. Perhaps you could attend an AA meeting and get some feedback from them as to what they felt alcohol was their "crutch".


FWIW-Frankly, when you drop somebody's name such as you did, some might label you a "jock sniffer". Just thought you might want to know.

Orlando,

My thought was regarding Paul Byrd, he's the one that started this discussion.

The Indians signed him (picked up his option).

The suggestion was made that all 30 teams avoid him to prove a point. I believe that would cause some serious issues with the union! We must remember the union is part of this equation regarding testing and penalties. They are there to protect the players.

Pro athletes are not precious, they are sometimes valuable possessions though. And as such they have a very powerful union that is very much a part of running the game.

I guess the point is... This is a very difficult problem to deal with. It's not always just right or wrong that dictates how things need to be handled. I actually see some serious head way from where we were only a couple years ago.

Jimmy ( I cant call you JIMI because there was only one)


I am not name dropping--just using an example--


I also have amajor problem with people like you who have to use anothers name-- If you have been reading this site long enough you know I am not AFRAID TO BE WHO I AM and don't back down to anyone--take it or leave it I am who I am-- I have no need to name drop--no need to use others to further my argument--in fact I am prbably an older guitar player than you but I saw no need to put that in my profile--this is a baseball site--not a gutiar site


PG

You make some great points about the MLB union situation--just saw where there may be problems if AROD talks to the Yankees without Boras as part of the conversation---apparently once a player has an agent he, the player,cannot wheel and deal on his own--this is apparently part of the bargaining agreement---even at my age I can learn something everyday

PG, if none of the teams elected to sign a player who had tested positive for a banned substance (Byrd or anybody else), that might be read by the union as collusion and there could be repercussions.

This would put the union in the position of actively defending a player with proof of wrongdoing. Not an enviable position, or perhaps, a tenable one.

Of course, it could also be seen as a sign that baseball actually wanted to clean itself up.

My point was to comment on your suggestion that the process had to be approached "by the law". I don't know of any state/federal law that requires continuation of employment if an employee violates the rules of employment. Help on that one, counselors?

Perhaps you meant by the agreement with the Player's Union. Does anyone know if there is a clause in the agreement covering guarenteed employment for players testing positive? We all know about the prescribed suspensions, but that would only be in the case of clubs who wished to keep the player.

Of course I understand that as long as a player is throwing/hitting/fielding well enough to assist in wins and putting bodies in seats, the owners aren't as concerned as parents who would rather our children not put questionable substances into their bodies. Or have to compete with those who have with relative impunity.

i found this interesting,looks like lots of laws broken.
---------------------------------------------------


Confusion reigns over U.S. rules on growth hormone even as crackdown is increased

By DAVID B. CARUSO
Associated Press Writer


Article Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2007
NEW YORK (AP) — Jeffrey George had no background in health care when he founded his business to sell human growth hormone on the Internet.

But even though most uses of the drug are illegal, he is absolutely certain that selling HGH isn't against the law, as long as customers have a prescription.

"It's the same thing as getting antibiotics," the 26-year-old bodybuilder said in a recent interview.

His confidence is understandable. Seventeen years after Congress made it a felony to distribute synthetic HGH improperly, there is still confusion about who may legally get the drug.

Doctors, pharmacists and even law enforcement agents disagree about the meaning of the law that, at least on paper, appears to ban prescriptions for HGH for anything other than a handful of rare illnesses.

The Food and Drug Administration has warned that anyone who distributes HGH for athletic enhancement or as an anti-aging remedy faces up to five years in prison, but that threat is rarely enforced.

Web sites frequented by bodybuilders brazenly hawk mail-order growth hormone as a way of increasing strength and stamina.

George's company, South Beach Rejuvenation and Health, touts the drug as a "fountain of youth," capable of removing wrinkles and boosting *** drive.

"Rejuvenation" centers catering to aging Baby Boomers offer HGH injections as a remedy for everything from low energy to expanding waistlines.

Distributors, according to a recent FDA alert, have increasingly offered to fulfill demand by importing unapproved versions of the drug from China, even though all such shipments are flatly illegal.

After years of treating it as a minor problem, some law enforcement agencies have recently turned more attention to HGH.

In September, the founder of one of China's largest drug manufacturers, the GeneScience Pharmaceuticals Company, was indicted on federal charges that he smuggled huge amounts of HGH into the U.S.

Last month, state officials seized $7.5 million in Chinese-made growth hormone from a Brooklyn pharmacy that had been supplying anti-aging clinics in New York and Florida.

A St. Louis pharmacy company, Specialty Distribution Systems Inc., agreed to pay a $10.5 million fine for distributing HGH to athletes, entertainers and others who didn't qualify for treatment.

And since the spring, a long list of doctors, clinic owners and pharmacy operators from several states have faced charges in Albany that they distributed HGH and steroids to patients who had no medical need for the drugs.

However, authorities acknowledge that the crackdown has been limited.

Prosecutors have been especially reluctant to take on one of the largest sources of HGH: Doctors who prescribe the drug as part of an anti-aging regimen.

Under the law, physicians are allowed to prescribe HGH when a patient's pituitary gland stops producing normal amounts of hormone, usually because it has been damaged by a tumor or a cancer treatment like surgery or radiation therapy.

Since the early 1990s, however, a minority of doctors have claimed that millions of other adults also can be legitimately said to have a hormone deficiency because the pituitary gland naturally tapers off HGH production after a person reaches middle age.

The growth of that approach infuriates doctors like Thomas Perls, an aging expert at Boston University Medical School, who said that while HGH has legitimate benefits there is little evidence to back claims it can slow aging.

"It's the worst kind of quackery," he said.

It also may not be safe, he said. Some studies have suggested that people who take HGH supplements run a greater risk of getting cancer. HGH treatment can also have side effects like joint pain and diabetes.

Prosecuting doctors, however, isn't easy. Just last week, one of the FDA's few efforts to crack down on a doctor ended in failure. A federal jury acquitted Reno, Nev., physician James Forsythe, who was charged in 2005 with prescribing HGH to middle-aged patients who wanted to get into better shape. Forsythe denied doing anything wrong.

State medical boards also appear loath to discipline physicians.

New York's Board for Professional Medical Conduct has taken action against only a handful of doctors in the past two decades for writing unwarranted HGH prescriptions.

After Albany Country District Attorney P. David Soares complained last spring that legal loopholes had made it more difficult to target doctors selling the drug to bodybuilders, Sen. Charles Schumer proposed a bill that would put HGH in the same regulatory category as narcotics and steroids.

At least some people in the business agree that changes are needed.

"The industry is polluted with the wrong types of people," said Brian Cotugno, a Floridian who worked as a consultant to several hormone replacement clinics.

Like George, Cotugno's original background wasn't in medicine. As a young man, he served a 10-year prison sentence for cocaine trafficking.

After his release, he said, he became a consultant, telling clinics how to satisfy government regulations. But he said many of his clients ignored advice that might cut into their profits.

Cotugno said he recently stopped advising the clinics, and abandoned a small HGH marketing business of his own.

"It always ended with some sort of disastrous scenario," he said.

Speaking of the NFL crackdown, Ricky Williams has been reinstated, if the Dolphins don't want him, I'll bet a bidding war for him will develop very shortly.

I hear his agent is very busy these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando:
Of course I understand that as long as a player is throwing/hitting/fielding well enough to assist in wins and putting bodies in seats, the owners aren't as concerned as parents who would rather our children not put questionable substances into their bodies.

I think this is a very wise and key point. If its someone else's kid, who the heck cares?

I have a friend who is a big-wig in the atomic metal bat industry. He once told me that a big argument they use with governing bodies (e.g. NCAA, HS sports, LLs, etc...) as to why their bats shouldn't be banned is because everyone loves the home run, the big smash. It puts fans in the seats. It gets parents all excited and more kids participate.

Extrapolate on that with the performance enhancing substance use we're discussing here and you can see why everyone has been slow to curb it. Lots of home runs and 98 mph fastballs puts butts in the seats. Who the heck cares if some HS kid mimics it because he sees it as his ticket? Everyone knows it will happen (to someone else's kid!), but no one can prove its true and therefore everyone turns a blind eye and is 'clean' legally speaking. Thats the attitude, unfortunately.

Every once in a while, a "leader" comes along and takes a stand. Bart Giammatti did it with Pete Rose and the game didn't suffer without one of its greatest players...why can't someone from MLB or the union do it now? I promise I'll go to more games if the game is cleaned up, home runs are down, fastballs are a little slower but more base-stealing and sacrifice bunts emerge and 'strategy' returns to the game.

How about you?

Justbaseball - not gonna happen.

The stakes are way too high.

Any "serious" crackdown on this stuff (as Coach May suggested) would cost players - the Union - a gaggle of lawyers and team ownership a fortune.

Coach May's approach IMO - is the absolute correct way to go - but it isnt gonna happen. Not when a relatively select few stand to lose Billions (not millions).

I also believe that what PG said was very accurate. It is a very complicated situation. We see the solution as simple - but actually implementing the solution is where the nightmare begins.

At best - it will be slow and gradual - to prevent any shock to those that are reaping the massive monetary benefits.
IMO

Some say that baseball is merely a microcosm of society.... if that's the case, then perhaps as long as drugs are used by society (e.g., anti-aging clinics) that they will also continue to be part of baseball...

Does anyone remember names such as Keith Hernandez, Steve Howe, Daryl Strawberry, Dave Parker, and Doc Gooden et al., from another troubling era? Does anyone remember the doom and gloom that was predicted back then?

Right now, maybe the threat of the scarlett letter is the only obstacle holding some back...

Definately, CD, but those were recreational drugs that, arguably, shortened their careers. (I certainly know Whitey saw to it that it shortened Hernandez' career with the Cardinals!)

Now it's using drugs to establish or lengthen a career, while players playing it straight (no pun intended) are getting shafted.

And the elephant in the room is that it's OK to develop a Super-race to entertain the masses.

I understand all the points made here and even agree with those points. However…

Regarding Byrd…

First of all, I don’t believe he tested positive or he would have received a suspension.

Second, if he has done something illegal, has he been charged with anything?

Third, his option was picked up and he is the type of pitcher who it’s hard to prove he has gained any physical advantage or power over his career.

Fourth, There are laws that protect employees and they are different from one state to the next. Then there are federal laws regarding employment.

Fifth, Baseball does not operate under standard business practice.

Here is a copy and paste from an attorney commenting on this subject.

Some background on employment law: most people are employed “at will,” meaning they can get kicked for any reason, so long as it’s not one of a few legally barred ones (i.e. race, gender, disability, etc.) Baseball players, however, get individually negotiated contracts (with certain restrictions from the union based on terms of collective bargaining), which lay out specifically when they may be dismissed and the contract voided. Included therein is typically a “morals clause,” where the club is allowed to void for bad behavior like violating the league’s drug policy which is collectively bargained.

It’s true that the law generally favors enforcing the language found in contracts. However, as with all things legal, there are always plenty of principles and exceptions which may serve to confuse what may otherwise seem like a straightforward application of the contract language. While the language of the contract itself may provide for dismissals based on bad behavior, there are several arguments from equity (lawyer talk for “that’s not fair!”) which favor the player in any legal battle.

Another comment copied and pasted….

Bonds is going to break Hank Aaron’s record. It’s often remarked that Bud has been waiting for someone, anyone, in law enforcement to rid him of this troublesome Giant. Unfortunately, when you look at what Bonds is potentially on the hook for, it seems Bud may be waiting for a long time.

Bottom line… This is very complex. If a player doesn’t test positive and is not legally charged with anything, what grounds is there for punishing anyone? MLB has some very powerful legal people as does the Players Union.

Maybe the biggest problem is the legal system rather than baseball. OJ has been a free man, at least temporarily!

PG,
If MLB had a commissioner like Bart Giamatti, who put what he objectively viewed as the best interests in baseball ahead of special interests, do you think there would be such silence?
MLB has more resources than most and the ability to evaluate risk and to make decisions based on risk, based on law, and based on revenues/business.
Let's not make that $7,500,000 more than it is.
For everyone of us, we won't make that in a lifetime.
For MLB, it is interest on their checking account.
Knowing that Byrd and others are taking positions on the 25 man roster when they have admitted using HGH is gnawing. Knowing they are doing that when there are hugely talented players in the minor leagues who are subjected to far more rigorous and penal drug requirements is, for me, almost nauseating.
We know the Indians have several very talented pitchers in Milb. They are likely clean because of the testing requirements of those with no power.
What is the fairness to those guys who are trying to prove themselves based on skills and hard work as opposed to a MLB guy who isn't subjected to the same testing, who is protected by the union, and who has a salary that permits him to purchase more HGH than he can use.
If we are looking to protect the "best interests of baseball," aren't those who are clean because they are powerless invited?
Your opinions are amongst the most powerful and influential on this site and I respect them greatly. But, when I balance in my own mind some pitchers I have seen in the Indians minor league sytem with the issues Byrd hid before being forced to confront them, I don't have any problem saying I would pay to see a kid like Chuck Lofgren and would never pay to see Paul Byrd.
For me, Byrd's "performance" cannot be separated from his admission of the purchase and use of HGH.

The players union has been brought up several times here. The players union is supposed to be "protecting players". Is the PU really protecting the players or is the PU protecting the players contract $$$.

If MLB and team owners have taken the position to sweep performence enhancing drugs under the rug because it puts fans in the seats, why would the players union go along? If players are damaging their bodies(via drugs) to enhance performence and in turn makes more money for MLB & team owners at the expense of the players health, why is PU ok with it?

If the PU truly had the players long term interest at heart they would demand more drug testing; test their
urine,blood,boogers,skin whatever it takes. Why does the PU sit back and watch players get taken advantage of inadvertantly by MLB & owners because of its drug policies? Players may choose to take perf enhancers, but isn't it the MLB policy that has allowed it to happen? OR is it the PU policy, or is it both?
Who is running the show at the PU??? If the majority of players were clean Why wouldn't those dues paying members be lobbying for a fair playing field? Why wouldn't that same majority be in full support of regular blood testing and stiff penalties for violations? I find it difficult to understand.

My rant is over...

TD, that's a very good, but dismaying point.

Why isn't there a movement from the clean players to drive out the guys on PEDs? If an enhanced player is setting records, extending a career, signing for serious money, it's certainly in a current player's interest to, shall we say, redistibute that PT, spot on the stats, and salary.

No Narc Rule....or too many involved and it would wipe out the majors?

quote:

by TD: If the PU truly had the players long term interest at heart they would demand more drug testing ... Who is running the show at the PU???
I find it difficult to understand.

the PU is run by the players

I see the nfl re-instated Ricky Williams

quote:

I see the nfl re-instated Ricky Williams

Yet another disappointing event in pro sports. I'm all for 2nd-chances, but 3rd/4th/5th chances let everyone know that the league is not serious. Its not a "right" to play pro sports...its a privelege earned by a few and like driving, should be taken away if abused.

quote:

Your opinions are amongst the most powerful and influential on this site and I respect them greatly. But, when I balance in my own mind some pitchers I have seen in the Indians minor league sytem with the issues Byrd hid before being forced to confront them, I don't have any problem saying I would pay to see a kid like Chuck Lofgren and would never pay to see Paul Byrd.

infielddad,

All the opinions I've given in this thread are based on just one thing. I'm not sure if I've been very clear. But here it is again...

It's easy to set back and say here is what they need to do... The problem is this is a very complex issue that deals with billions of dollars. It is not as easy as grounding my children. There is no one person, including the commissioner who has the power or ability to change this overnight.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm in favor of what any player or team is doing.

I too would rather pay to see Chuck Lofgren. However, the past kind of proves that enough people are going to pay to watch Byrd also. In fact, sometimes the most notorious or hated draw the most interest. That's a problem worth solving in itself.

Just to be clear, I hate all this steroid stuff. I hate the fact that players have used it. I hate the message it's sending to young players. I hate the fact that it has smeared the great game of baseball. I just think it's a very complex issue and can't be solved with simple solutions by anyone, including all of us who post here. And I think it is very obvious that all of this is headed in the right direction. It's better now than it was only a couple years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Just to be clear, I hate all this steroid stuff. I hate the fact that players have used it. I hate the message it's sending to young players. I hate the fact that it has smeared the great game of baseball.

PG - I may be too idealistic. I also hope what I'm about to say comes across in the genuinely respectful and admirable way it is meant towards you.

I believe that as an owner of a company that routinely deals with and comes face-to-face with HS/teenage players trying to fulfill a dream that your comments were a very important statement for you to make. I congratulate you for it and I agree with infielddad when he said:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Your (PG's) opinions are amongst the most powerful and influential on this site and I respect them greatly.

I'll second that and again say, Thanks!

You also said:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I just think it's a very complex issue and can't be solved with simple solutions by anyone, including all of us who post here. And I think it is very obvious that all of this is headed in the right direction. It's better now than it was only a couple years ago.

I also realize the practicality of that statement and agree with you. Sometimes a leader (e.g. Giamatti) steps forward and takes a risk and does the correct, yet unpopular thing. Maybe we have too many trying to play the role of "leader" in MLB right now...for their own special interests...but I believe that someone will step forward, eventually.

Again, thanks for showing your own brand of leadership on this. I think it was very valuable for you to have done that.

justbaseball,

Thanks, that is very flattering, especially coming from you.

But the truth is my opinions mean no more or less than the opinions of others. It's just nice to be able to give an opinion without getting slammed. Sometimes on here it's hard to accurately state your thoughts without it coming out like you're disagreeing or arguing.

One thing we are unanimously in agreement about is that this stuff stinks up the game that we love.

Well, a bit more stuff to stink up the game we love.
Jose Guillen gets 3 years and $36,000,000 from the Royals.
At the same time, there is talk he will "receive" up to a 15 game suspension for the purchase of over $20,000 of HGH from 2002 to 2005 in violation of baseball rules(funny, a minor leaguer making $1,250 would get 50 games.)
Last night, ESPN's Steve Phillips talks about how this is a non issue, that baseball is at an all time high in revenues and attendance and this just isn't important to the "fans" who are turning out in record numbers.
When, when, when is someone in baseball going to put sport and competition before the pocket book?
When is someone in MLB going to make a comment that says this just isn't tolerable?
When is ESPN/MLB going to say Phillips comments are not tolerable?
Where is there a leader anywhere in MLB?

quote:

When, when, when is someone in baseball going to put sport and competition before the pocket book?
When is someone in MLB going to make a comment that says this just isn't tolerable?
When is ESPN/MLB going to say Phillips comments are not tolerable?

Right after hell freezes over. Always follow the money trail. We've become a society where the definition of ethics and morality have become very gray. In baseball are morality and ethics anything more than part of the cost of doing business balanced off against the return on investment?

This isn't just a baseball problem. Baseball is just part of society. Does it get harder to raise kids telling them to do the right thing, when they see those who don't do the right thing being rewarded?

infield dad

i know where your coming from. unless you have a son in the minors, people don't even know of the double standard baseball sets. and they have no vested interest like a parent.
if they all played by the same rules as milb there wouldn't be a scandel. the owners wouldn't/couldn't put up with it. but it is the all mighty dollar that pulls the sled.