2seamer,
That all makes sense, but do you really believe that Paul Byrd threw in the mid 70s before he bought the HGH? He played at LSU and was a 4th round draft pick. He was barely over 6-0 tall. Surely you don't think he was a mid 70s pitcher.
Maybe he never was a 90+ type pitcher, I truthfully don't know, but we know how he throws now and I doubt he threw any slower than that before he was injured and bought the HGH.
So my question once again... Can HGH give a pitcher better control and more finesse? I really don't think it added any velocity on his part. Did he use it just to recover quicker from injury? Not saying that's right either, just trying to figure out how and how much the HGH might have helped him.
As a 21 year old long before the HGH thing, he was 14-6 in AA ball. 3.01 ERA, 152 IP, 122 hits, 118 strikeouts, and 75 walks. This year for Cleveland he struckout 88 and walked 38. In 2006 he struckout 102 and walked 28.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM
Silly in your mind perhaps but not mine---cortisone is a performance enhancer whether you like it or not---the player would not be on the field without it-- so are painkillers
HGH as purportedly used in Byrd's case was also for healing
Steroids with prescription are used in healing as well
TR, you and I have been around and around with this subject the last couple of years, and it's obvious that you still don't have a clue what you're talking about. You keep spewing the same nonsense about a very serious subject..something that's particularly concerning when you did (or still do) coach young players that need all the guidance they can get.
Alcohol is not a performance enhancer. Just because a belly full of booze makes you feel 10 ft tall and bulletproof, doesn't make it so. Dock Ellis threw a no-hitter while high on LSD...would you contend LSD is a performance enhancer? I don't think so.
Cortisone or pain shots aren't performance enhancers. They're masking agents. All they do is temporarily mask a problem...damage is still being done to those areas if a player plays after getting a shot.
There's a major difference in anabolic steroids, and corticosteroids. That's why you don't see 80 yr olds with lung problems have the body of Charles Atlas. Those two types of drugs work totally differently.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
2seamer,
That all makes sense, but do you really believe that Paul Byrd threw in the mid 70s before he bought the HGH? He played at LSU and was a 4th round draft pick. He was barely over 6-0 tall. Surely you don't think he was a mid 70s pitcher.
Maybe he never was a 90+ type pitcher, I truthfully don't know, but we know how he throws now and I doubt he threw any slower than that before he was injured and bought the HGH.
So my question once again... Can HGH give a pitcher better control and more finesse? I really don't think it added any velocity on his part. Did he use it just to recover quicker from injury? Not saying that's right either, just trying to figure out how and how much the HGH might have helped him.
I remember Byrd when he was with the Braves in 1997-1998. As I remember, he never was a power pitcher then..seems like I remember him being a mid-80's guy at most on his best day.
It's interesting, if you look at his career, in 1999 he set his initial career high for innings thrown..and his ERA started climbing, jumping again in 2000 to 6.51. He was traded to Kansas City. 2002 was the year he started using HGH. That year he threw his career high innings, 228, with an ERA of 3.9, his best statistical year as a starter.
That got him a contract with the Braves, but he had to miss 2003 and most of 2004 with Tommy John surgery.
To answer your question, HGH won't improve a picher's control. It will add velocity, and that added strength may help add a bit of movement to the ball. He's still a finesse pitcher...I've seen him in games throwing 80 mph fastballs..so it's highly possible that without HGH, he may be throwing in the 70's. To add to that, he may very well still be using HGH, because MLB doesn't test for it. One thing for sure..he's got 7.5 million reasons for doing it...one for every dollar of that contract.
I am, through this post, going to try and illustrate where I see the issue of MLB, the Indians and Byrd.
Let us assume a top rated showcase player who is age 17 this Fall and who has several DI offers is reading this thread. He has been having significant shoulder pain, has had an MRI and it shows a slight tear in his labrum and fraying of the cuff. The ortho doctor is telling him he does not need surgery but does need intense PT and strengthening/stabalization.
When he finds this out, he discloses it to the DI's and his two top tell him they will wait and see how things develop during his high school season.
Over the winter, he works religiously and the pain remains.
Come January, knowing Byrd used HGH as did several others who were trying to "recuperate" from injury at the ML level, he learns it is available through the internet, with a prescription, but that can be managed.
What would we advise that young man?
Would we advise him to order the HGH over the internet to maximize his chances of recovery in search of that DI schollie? What does the Byrd/MLB issue tell us he will learn and might do.
For whatever it is worth, I read a summary of an interview with a researcher at Stanford. His focus is growth factor, not growth hormone, and it's potential for healing.
Here is the quote:
" I thought Allan Mishra, a surgeon at the Menlo Medical Clinic and an adjunct professor at Stanford, might be one of them. He is researching something called platelet-enriched plasma and its effect on damaged tendons. Platelets are the clotting element in blood, and Mishra said a high concentration of them near a wound appears to trick the body into sending growth factors, a healing agent, to the site.
But there is, Mishra points out, a substantial difference between growth factor and growth hormone, which can induce powerful changes in the entire body. He won't rule out the possibility that synthetic HGH could be an effective healing agent, but if anyone has ever conducted a study on the subject, he hasn't heard of it. So for now, he has no interest in testing the hormone's potential.
"I haven't done that, nor would I do it, because I think it's unethical," Mishra said."
So, with Growth factor being that which is under study and a research professor saying HGH has neither been studied and he would not do it because of the "ethics" and side effects, what would we tell this high school senior?
Would we provide him similar guidance and justification that is available for Paul Bryd.
In his mind, I would think, that DI schollie is somewhat similar to what is paid by MLB.
What would we want that young man, who probably isn't all that hypothetical, to know?
Let us assume a top rated showcase player who is age 17 this Fall and who has several DI offers is reading this thread. He has been having significant shoulder pain, has had an MRI and it shows a slight tear in his labrum and fraying of the cuff. The ortho doctor is telling him he does not need surgery but does need intense PT and strengthening/stabalization.
When he finds this out, he discloses it to the DI's and his two top tell him they will wait and see how things develop during his high school season.
Over the winter, he works religiously and the pain remains.
Come January, knowing Byrd used HGH as did several others who were trying to "recuperate" from injury at the ML level, he learns it is available through the internet, with a prescription, but that can be managed.
What would we advise that young man?
Would we advise him to order the HGH over the internet to maximize his chances of recovery in search of that DI schollie? What does the Byrd/MLB issue tell us he will learn and might do.
For whatever it is worth, I read a summary of an interview with a researcher at Stanford. His focus is growth factor, not growth hormone, and it's potential for healing.
Here is the quote:
" I thought Allan Mishra, a surgeon at the Menlo Medical Clinic and an adjunct professor at Stanford, might be one of them. He is researching something called platelet-enriched plasma and its effect on damaged tendons. Platelets are the clotting element in blood, and Mishra said a high concentration of them near a wound appears to trick the body into sending growth factors, a healing agent, to the site.
But there is, Mishra points out, a substantial difference between growth factor and growth hormone, which can induce powerful changes in the entire body. He won't rule out the possibility that synthetic HGH could be an effective healing agent, but if anyone has ever conducted a study on the subject, he hasn't heard of it. So for now, he has no interest in testing the hormone's potential.
"I haven't done that, nor would I do it, because I think it's unethical," Mishra said."
So, with Growth factor being that which is under study and a research professor saying HGH has neither been studied and he would not do it because of the "ethics" and side effects, what would we tell this high school senior?
Would we provide him similar guidance and justification that is available for Paul Bryd.
In his mind, I would think, that DI schollie is somewhat similar to what is paid by MLB.
What would we want that young man, who probably isn't all that hypothetical, to know?
I would tell him to stay away from that stuff! Go talk to a doctor about his condition and his concerns.
I wouldn't tell him that this is what Paul Byrd did, because I don't know what Paul Byrd did. We only know he purchased more HGH than he could possibly ever use. Maybe he was a dealer for all we know.
In the end I would say lets see what happens to Paul Byrd once all the smoke clears. Others have forfeited large contracts in the past.
infielddad,
I think all your concerns are very legitimate. I just don't quite see the message as being as strong as you think it is. We are in the middle of an important educational time regarding steroids, HGH, etc. Never before has the subject received so much attention. In the end, I think education will overcome what some player has done or gotten away with.
Babe Ruth hit more HRs than the rest of the league. Did all the young children start buying illegal beer and eat tons of hotdogs? Geez, maybe they did!
I do think we need to keep fighting this and I respect you doing just that.
I wouldn't tell him that this is what Paul Byrd did, because I don't know what Paul Byrd did. We only know he purchased more HGH than he could possibly ever use. Maybe he was a dealer for all we know.
In the end I would say lets see what happens to Paul Byrd once all the smoke clears. Others have forfeited large contracts in the past.
infielddad,
I think all your concerns are very legitimate. I just don't quite see the message as being as strong as you think it is. We are in the middle of an important educational time regarding steroids, HGH, etc. Never before has the subject received so much attention. In the end, I think education will overcome what some player has done or gotten away with.
Babe Ruth hit more HRs than the rest of the league. Did all the young children start buying illegal beer and eat tons of hotdogs? Geez, maybe they did!
I do think we need to keep fighting this and I respect you doing just that.
quote:infielddad posted: In his mind, I would think, that DI schollie is somewhat similar to what is paid by MLB.
What would we want that young man, who probably isn't all that hypothetical, to know?
He should know that while nothing great comes cheaply or easily, trying to pound a square peg in a round hole using a needle does not work. Cheaters need to pay a price and go away.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
JIMI
Again I say your handle is a grave insult to one of the greatest guitarists ever to live
But you also need to read better than you do---where did I say I bought them drinks---I said I rubbed elbows with them a number of times---amazing how simple minds come up with what they want to
I have a very good idea if you were elbow to elbow with them at any bar, they weren't paying for your tab, or their's for that matter. So, I did the math and came to the conclusion I did. I can only imagine you hangin' at all the hot spots in Upper Manhatten and the Village.
You think alcohol is a "performance enchancer". Yeah, I'm the one with the simple mind.
I can see you are a thorn in many a poster's side, but you got to be tougher than this to pierce my skin.
2seamer
Sorry I am not as intelligent as you ---- but you are entitled to your opinions just as I am to mine
By the way what I believe is happening with players in the pros and what I preach to my players are two different things
By the way if you mask the pain and do not feel the pain thus enabling you to take the field is that not a performance enhancer?
JIMI
Don't make assumptions that you have no basis to make
I just wish I was intelligent as many of you think you are
Sorry I am not as intelligent as you ---- but you are entitled to your opinions just as I am to mine
By the way what I believe is happening with players in the pros and what I preach to my players are two different things
By the way if you mask the pain and do not feel the pain thus enabling you to take the field is that not a performance enhancer?
JIMI
Don't make assumptions that you have no basis to make
I just wish I was intelligent as many of you think you are
Doesn't matter what is preached.
Young players know what is going on.They know that they have worked hard and sacrificed for baseball most of their young lives and they are willing to do what ever it takes to get to the next level. Parents and coaches have instilled it in them, "work hard and do what it takes"
If pro baseball doesn't think there is any thing wrong with a little "help" why should they, Its not a short cut, it's not cheating ,your just doing what needs to be done, what every body else does.
Its time for MLB to stop enabling cheaters.MLB has to step up and require yr round testing for HGH and other drugs.
As far as the argument that the old time baseball players drank, did greenies etc. Remember what your mother taught you "Two wrongs don't make a right"
Young players know what is going on.They know that they have worked hard and sacrificed for baseball most of their young lives and they are willing to do what ever it takes to get to the next level. Parents and coaches have instilled it in them, "work hard and do what it takes"
If pro baseball doesn't think there is any thing wrong with a little "help" why should they, Its not a short cut, it's not cheating ,your just doing what needs to be done, what every body else does.
Its time for MLB to stop enabling cheaters.MLB has to step up and require yr round testing for HGH and other drugs.
As far as the argument that the old time baseball players drank, did greenies etc. Remember what your mother taught you "Two wrongs don't make a right"
njbb
Not talking right or wrong---just talking what is and what was--
Not talking right or wrong---just talking what is and what was--
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
2seamer
Sorry I am not as intelligent as you ---- but you are entitled to your opinions just as I am to mine
By the way what I believe is happening with players in the pros and what I preach to my players are two different things
By the way if you mask the pain and do not feel the pain thus enabling you to take the field is that not a performance enhancer?
This has nothing to do with intelligence..it has to do with doing some research. An intelligent person can skip the research, and look foolish..an uneducated person can do research and look brilliant.
Facts are facts..opinions aren't. If you post opinions that are baseless, it does two things. 1) It makes you look foolish if you're wrong, and 2) someone may take your opinion at face value, because they think you know what you're talking about.
You need to look at what's happening in the pros, and preach to your players based on that. Why? The temptation is strong..use a steroid or HGH, and it may mean making an elite travel team, getting a better scholarship offer, a chance to be drafted, a chance to move from A ball to AA ball, or the chance to sign a 7.5 million dollar contract. If you think that there aren't kids taking these substances with the blessings of their parents, then you're sadly mistaken.
No, pain shots, or cortisone shots, are masking agents. If they were performance enhancers, then any player could arbitrarily use them, and see better results.
As an illustration, booze is a masking agent. If you come home to your wife slobbering drunk convinced you're the second coming of Don Juan, then that masking agent isn't a performance enhancer.
However, bring her a card and flowers for no reason, and tell her that she's the best thing that's ever happened to you..now that's a performance enhancer.
quote:Originally posted by 2seamer:
As an illustration, booze is a masking agent. If you come home to your wife slobbering drunk convinced you're the second coming of Don Juan, then that masking agent isn't a performance enhancer.
However, bring her a card and flowers for no reason, and tell her that she's the best thing that's ever happened to you..now that's a performance enhancer.
2seamer,
Now I know what I was doing wrong the last 25 years. LOL
Mantle, Ruth, Martin.
All great baseball legends. I like them all. I respect them all. I enjoyed them all...either through watching them or reading about them.
But to make the argument that their drinking helped them or enhanced their perfomance just isn't plausiblie IMO. Nope, there's no way to prove what I think nor what someone who says it did thinks, but I do not accept the premise that they played better baseball because of their lifestyle.
Lets put the baseball performance aside for a moment however, and ask the questions:
* Did they each die (relatively) young because of their drinking?
Billy Martin most certainly did (car accident on Christmas day while heavily drunk). Mickey Mantle probably did and said so. He even had a kid who suffered from substance abuse and died very young. Babe Ruth died (relatively) young too...from cancer. Did his lifestyle contribute? Probably, but we cannot prove it.
* While they each had terrific careers, would they have played or managed longer and broken more records without the self-destructive lifestyle?
And what about your own kids? Your travel team players?
* If your son told you, "Mom/Dad, I got drunk because it relaxes me and helps my performance the next day," what would you say?
* If a kid on your travel team got caught with booze in his hotel room and used a similar excuse...what would you say?
I understand Mantle possibly suffered from depression, maybe Martin too. Ruth probably suffered from a lack of discipline. These are real issues and there are alternative (non-alchoholic) ways to deal with it.
I will also say that I enjoy a glass of wine with dinner or a beer with a burger. I probably drank too much myself when I was in college. And no, I am not naive when it comes to my own kids. But performance enhancement? No, no way! I say these guys performed IN SPITE of their substance abuse. I think they would have been even better without it!
So to suggest that these players 'benefitted' from alchohol abuse is irresponsible IMO for this website where hundreds, if not thousands of young teenage ballplayers read our comments. My older son had a teammate in HS who was an alchoholic. He was a key player on a good team. He sometimes threw up in the dugout and his performance was horrible after a drinking binge. I once convinced the coach not to suspend him after an episode because his family was a good family and I thought if he was given a break, he'd straighten up and fly right...I wonder if I did the wrong thing? He was a D1 talent who never put it together consistently enough to get noticed and lasted only a year at a JC. I can assure you that his parents and coaches were, and probably still are, tormented by it all.
So lets talk about this 'intelligently,' without emotion. Lets consider who reads our words. Lets look at the big picture and remember that Mantle, Ruth and Martin probably paid the ultimate price for their indiscretions and remember that we'd probably NEVER advise our own children to follow their lifestyle.
All great baseball legends. I like them all. I respect them all. I enjoyed them all...either through watching them or reading about them.
But to make the argument that their drinking helped them or enhanced their perfomance just isn't plausiblie IMO. Nope, there's no way to prove what I think nor what someone who says it did thinks, but I do not accept the premise that they played better baseball because of their lifestyle.
Lets put the baseball performance aside for a moment however, and ask the questions:
* Did they each die (relatively) young because of their drinking?
Billy Martin most certainly did (car accident on Christmas day while heavily drunk). Mickey Mantle probably did and said so. He even had a kid who suffered from substance abuse and died very young. Babe Ruth died (relatively) young too...from cancer. Did his lifestyle contribute? Probably, but we cannot prove it.
* While they each had terrific careers, would they have played or managed longer and broken more records without the self-destructive lifestyle?
And what about your own kids? Your travel team players?
* If your son told you, "Mom/Dad, I got drunk because it relaxes me and helps my performance the next day," what would you say?
* If a kid on your travel team got caught with booze in his hotel room and used a similar excuse...what would you say?
I understand Mantle possibly suffered from depression, maybe Martin too. Ruth probably suffered from a lack of discipline. These are real issues and there are alternative (non-alchoholic) ways to deal with it.
I will also say that I enjoy a glass of wine with dinner or a beer with a burger. I probably drank too much myself when I was in college. And no, I am not naive when it comes to my own kids. But performance enhancement? No, no way! I say these guys performed IN SPITE of their substance abuse. I think they would have been even better without it!
So to suggest that these players 'benefitted' from alchohol abuse is irresponsible IMO for this website where hundreds, if not thousands of young teenage ballplayers read our comments. My older son had a teammate in HS who was an alchoholic. He was a key player on a good team. He sometimes threw up in the dugout and his performance was horrible after a drinking binge. I once convinced the coach not to suspend him after an episode because his family was a good family and I thought if he was given a break, he'd straighten up and fly right...I wonder if I did the wrong thing? He was a D1 talent who never put it together consistently enough to get noticed and lasted only a year at a JC. I can assure you that his parents and coaches were, and probably still are, tormented by it all.
So lets talk about this 'intelligently,' without emotion. Lets consider who reads our words. Lets look at the big picture and remember that Mantle, Ruth and Martin probably paid the ultimate price for their indiscretions and remember that we'd probably NEVER advise our own children to follow their lifestyle.
to quote Mantle himself:
"God gave me everything and I blew it. For the kids out there, don't be like me!"
"God gave me everything and I blew it. For the kids out there, don't be like me!"
Alcohol is no less destructive - and perhaps even more destructive - than the new wave garbage that the Bonds and Giambi's and the rest of these cheaters and liars have been putting into their body.
Hopefully - all the young players that read this site will look around at the wasted lives and pain that alcohol - and the rest of this garbage - has generated.
That should be enough information for any young man or woman to base their future decisions on. IMO
Hopefully - all the young players that read this site will look around at the wasted lives and pain that alcohol - and the rest of this garbage - has generated.
That should be enough information for any young man or woman to base their future decisions on. IMO
There's a reason why the language has lots of different words; they mean different things.
Don't confuse performance enhancers (giving more muscle mass, strength, etc) and performance enablers (masking pain, giving false courage, not being as tired).
Just trying to clarify.
Some of those enablers are medically prescribed for legitimate reasons by legitimate doctors; some are smoke and mirrors, some are illegal.
Don't confuse performance enhancers (giving more muscle mass, strength, etc) and performance enablers (masking pain, giving false courage, not being as tired).
Just trying to clarify.
Some of those enablers are medically prescribed for legitimate reasons by legitimate doctors; some are smoke and mirrors, some are illegal.
justbaseball, deldad, its, njbb, Orlando:
Those are powerful posts, IMO.
This is one of the reasons this site can be contagious, at times. Powerful thoughts. Different viewpoints. Awfully fine people.
Those are powerful posts, IMO.
This is one of the reasons this site can be contagious, at times. Powerful thoughts. Different viewpoints. Awfully fine people.
Evrryone is entitled to their opinions-- we dont have to all agree---I still like my side of the street
In fact just found a food vendor selling my scallops wrapped in bacon with garlic
In fact just found a food vendor selling my scallops wrapped in bacon with garlic
Justbasball, I agree.
Several years ago we were putting together a weight training program together for son. Trainer stressed to me how important it was for son not to drink during training (or other drugs). He explained its effects on training, I don't remember the details but it was all bad. I didn't really need a trainer to tell me this (I have had more than a few myself), but he was specific to the cellular level.
Mik may have drank to enhance performance off the field, but on the field no way. I think he would have been better. IMO
TR. The guy on my side of the street has has fontinella cheese stuffed filet........hmm
Several years ago we were putting together a weight training program together for son. Trainer stressed to me how important it was for son not to drink during training (or other drugs). He explained its effects on training, I don't remember the details but it was all bad. I didn't really need a trainer to tell me this (I have had more than a few myself), but he was specific to the cellular level.
Mik may have drank to enhance performance off the field, but on the field no way. I think he would have been better. IMO
TR. The guy on my side of the street has has fontinella cheese stuffed filet........hmm
We are grown adults. We know the deal. We can decide to believe and feel about it anyway we want to. What message does this send to our kids? That will be decided by the personal examples we set in the way we live our lives and the way we communicate with our kids.
The fact is most people that go to pro baseball games have no clue. They have never played. Never coached. And are frankly clueless and dont care. Look at the polls they take. We are the exception not the rule. We hate cheaters because we dont want our kids to have to compete against cheaters and possibly be beat out of an opportunity by a cheater. And we know how competitive our kids are and how bad they want it so we dont want to them to feel pressured into cheating as well. And we love the game and we hate anything that hurts the game. Plus we want to know its real. We dont want to have to wonder. MLB still is not doing what it needs to do. You get caught you are gone! You cheat you dont compete! Thats sounds pretty cool I just made that one up, YOU CHEAT YOU DONT COMPETE! Now thats a good one.
The fact is most people that go to pro baseball games have no clue. They have never played. Never coached. And are frankly clueless and dont care. Look at the polls they take. We are the exception not the rule. We hate cheaters because we dont want our kids to have to compete against cheaters and possibly be beat out of an opportunity by a cheater. And we know how competitive our kids are and how bad they want it so we dont want to them to feel pressured into cheating as well. And we love the game and we hate anything that hurts the game. Plus we want to know its real. We dont want to have to wonder. MLB still is not doing what it needs to do. You get caught you are gone! You cheat you dont compete! Thats sounds pretty cool I just made that one up, YOU CHEAT YOU DONT COMPETE! Now thats a good one.