What message does this send?

quote:

YOU CHEAT YOU DONT COMPETE!

Johnny Cochran would be proud Coach May, and I agree. MLB has not done nearly enough to stop the violation of one of the most basic tenets of the game- fairness - and the public relations nightmare that sits in Selig's lap grows bigger every day. Soon the Mitchell report comes out. What's he gonna do?

quote:

I still like my side of the street

TR, On your side of the street, what would you tell the 17 year old, who has already had the max number of cortisone shots to his shoulder, and who is trying to recover from a shoulder injury to show well for DI caoches, about his using HGH to heal?

therein lies the problem, you see things as a "pure fan of the game"

MLB ... one of the most basic tenets of the game - fairness - - PROFIT -

Soon the Mitchell report comes out. What's he (Selig) gonna do? ...

he will see it before we do and just make the necessary changes

infield dad

I never said we did that on my side of the street---PLEASE---read my posts and read them carefully-

What is the MAX Number of cortisone shots??? Do you know ? I don't !!!

bee ---FINALLY WE AGREE

Mitchell has ownership ties

Selig has ownership ties

that means lets keep making money

Personally, I'm not as hard over against the use of HGH - in the past, as I am against the use of steroids. I'm dead set against it now and since it was banned by MLB because it is against the rules.

It has been known for a long time that steroids were a performance enhancer and illegal. They have significant side effects. It has only been relatively recently that HGH was even felt to be a performance enhancer and the side effects are much longer term. HGH is also relatively easy to get a prescription for relative to steroids.

As far as the use of cortisone and other anti-inflammatories they do not enhance performance. They simply allow the body to temporarily perform up to it's normal capabilities by reducing inflammation. In the long run, cortisone and other anti-inflammatories tend to reduce performance. Just ask Koufax. Anti-inflammatories are well accepted within sports and medical practice. There's a big difference between using medicine to return the body to it's normal function and trying to use medicine to enhance performance. I would never castigate someone who needs TJ surgery for having the procedure done. I would like to have the parent who tries to get the procedure done to add that mythical 3 or 4 mph shot. That's the difference between using medicine where necessary and to enhance performance.

TR, I asked what would you tell that young man on your side of the street?
And yes, there is a max number for shoulder conditions. It is 3 within, I believe a 12 month period. More than that carries risks for damage to the structural integrity of the shoulder.

FWIW, Here is how I see the problem… It is very, very complex!!! It can not be solved overnight. There are way too many things involved. The easy part is seeing it as cheating, the hard part is “legally” solving the problem. Let’s don’t call for a witch hunt!

I’ve mentioned this before, but what about the “players union”? Why don’t people blame them just as much as the commissioner’s office? There is a lot of negotiation that takes place that we are not aware of regarding protecting players. That negotiation also pertains to rules and penalties regarding those players!

Why not blame our legal system for not punishing these players? After all, it’s been said many times that even though it might have been legal in baseball at one time, it was always against the law! Why aren’t they out there arresting these players and putting them behind bars? Yet, we expect the commissioner’s office to solve this problem right away.

It’s easy to say things like you do this and you’re banned for life, but that’s easier said than done for those in charge of solving the problem. It’s like saying those who have used, or accused of using steroids, no longer have any rights. Sometimes things have to be done one step at a time according to the law.

The truth is… Many players have been severely punished by having their names tarnished and drug through the mud. Some who would be sure hall of famers. Yet we act like they are getting rewarded and getting away with it. Ask Rafael Palmeiro, how wonderful he has been feeling about everything that has taken place. He’s a guy with 569 HRs and over 3,000 hits. Did he come out of it unscathed? Sometimes the punishment can come from public perception and it can be very damaging.

We talk in terms of how much money these players make. There are other things beside money that are important. Things like your reputation and your honor. How much money would it take for a person to disregard all the bad things that the rest of the world has to say about them? Maybe OJ got away with it and has millions of dollars… Who would want to trade places with him? He is an example of how public perception can be very powerful and even more unforgiving than the legal system. Then again, he was facing the death penalty… maybe a bad example!

To me, it is very obvious that people are working on trying to solve this problem. It probably will not affect the younger generation once they see what has happened to so many who were involved. If some young player were risking taking steroids today, he would have to be one very stupid person who has his head buried in the sand! Yes, there are some, but times have changed for the better! IMO

PG,
I have brought up the Player's Union on several occasions and their stance on no blood testing (only way you can detect HGH). But someone said here that MLB has not been strong enough to force them on the issue. Aren't we talking about one of the most powerful unions in the country.

I also hope what you say is true, that the young players will see that not only does it pose health risks but can hurt in other ways.

IMO, you can't go backwards, have to move forward and that begins with,IMO, the education and strict penalities for those just beginning their pro careers. Time to turn over a whole new generation of non users, since we do not know and will never know who did and who didn't. That goes for the foreign players as well, the young guys at 16, 17 who look like the incredible hulk.

I think it's ironic though, I have noticed that MLB players's' bodies have changed (smaller), players are taking longer to recover. Am I the only one who has noticed that?

Im not as smart as you guys. I surely do not have the answers to these questions. But I do know this. MLB knew they had a problem. They chose to ignore it until the problem became to big to ignore. So now we can move forward. Who is in charge of the game itself? The union or MLB? Here is a fact. These guys are fighting for their lives. The desire to get into the league and the desire to stay in the league is more important to many than their health. Many will take the approach "I will worry about that later". Or "He used for years and it didnt hurt him." Or "I would rather take the chance and make than not use and not make it".

The punishment must be so severe and certain that it over takes the desire to take the chance. And folks when you talking about wanting something as bad as these guys want this the punishment must be bordering on Outrageous. A suspension or a year long ban is the type of punishment that will send shock waves through the club houses. That is not enough. You must drop an Atomic Bomb on these guys and scare the he ll out of them. All the way down to the HS ranks.

I dont know all the ins and outs of Unions and MLB regulations and this and that. All I know is if the reward is worth the risk people will take the risk. But I do know if the risk is not worth the reward then guess what? People will finally get it. Until them nothing is really going to change. It might sound cruel. But to me what is cruel is a guy doing the right thing and he gets punished for not cheating. And the guy cheating after he has made his millions saying how bad he was humiliated. Are you humiliated enough to send a check to the guy you beat out because he didnt cheat? Bet not.

great posts

just a little aside. interesting article. I wonder who is paying the legal fees. my guess is the MLB players union.

Report: Florida clinic files motion to seal patient records
ESPN.com news services

Updated: November 8, 2007, 4:56 PM ET
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Lawyers for an anti-aging clinic involved in the Albany County (N.Y) steroids investigation wants its patient records sealed, according to a published report, and it is going to court to achieve that goal.


The New York Daily news reported Thursday that the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center has filed a motion in Florida state court to seal their patient records after many athletes names have surfaced in recent weeks as having bought steroids from the company.

That motion is scheduled to be heard Tuesday.

The filing goes on to claim that medical records for their patients were illegally shared with the NFL, Major League Baseball and the media.


"It seems to me this information was leaked in violation of patients' rights," David Holland, a lawyer for the clinic, told the paper.



Veteran baseball players Jose Guillen, Matt Williams and Ismael Valdez purchased thousands of dollars worth of steroids and human growth hormone from the Florida clinic, according to a report this week in the San Francisco Chronicle.

Well said coach,

QUOTE]PG: We talk in terms of how much money these players make. There are other things beside money that are important. Things like your reputation and your honor. [/QUOTE]

Where is the honor in taking drugs/steroids to enhance performance?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

The truth is… Many players have been severely punished by having their names tarnished and drug through the mud. Some who would be sure hall of famers. Yet we act like they are getting rewarded and getting away with it. Ask Rafael Palmeiro, how wonderful he has been feeling about everything that has taken place. He’s a guy with 569 HRs and over 3,000 hits. Did he come out of it unscathed? Sometimes the punishment can come from public perception and it can be very damaging.IMO

PG, I fully agree this is a very complicated issue with many moving parts and legal issues involved.
But that should not preclude MLB/Bud and the Indians from "publicly" taking a position. They can say that Byrd acted within the rules at that time, if that is true, but they don't condone it. For the Indians to say they did not even consider it and for MLB to be silent is where I am having a problem.
On the Palmeiro issue, when I visualize him sitting before the Senate, wagging his finger with indignation, while under oath and with steroids in his system, that, for me, shows the depth of the issue. The guy is sitting there with steroids in his system and testifying, with tenacity, under oath to things that are false.
And then he throws Tejada and his teammates under the bus.
IMO, Palmeiro should be an example that isn't forgotten. I do think, from a business view, too many would rather him be forgotten than remembered.

I wonder how many players have walked away who were MLB material that said, I don't care if everyone else is/was doing it I will not?

I think this is where we as parents come in and what we teach and preach to our young kids. Nothing is ever worth risking your integrity or your health to play at a higher level. We have instilled this in our kids, no matter what they do for a living. We as parents can only hope that the need to achieve their goals for personal gain is greater than monetary gain.

I think that some folks don't do that, maybe not the ones who post here, but many parents pressure their kids to beleive that they have to be the best, achieve highest they can in this profession to make lots of $$. As a parent with very young players, there should never be a discussion about how much money he could make someday. Young players have no clue about the business of baseball and neither do their folks, the business side should come later, when the player is old enough to understand exactly what it's all about. I am not sure my son really understood it all until he reached college, met players, former players and coaches who played pro ball and then it was his choice to decide which direction he wanted to go. Yeah he always said he wanted to play baseball for a living, but not sure if he understood if that was really what he wanted to be a part of. Still, the reality of what goes on isn't there until you first walk onto the field and do it for a living.

I have seen the pressure that parents lay on their kids, many aren't even playing anymore, and surprisingly enough, some of whom I have seen find success are from the ones you least expect it from, not sure if it is because of different attitude (whatever will be will be) or that they know and understand how hard this business is, and not making it is not considered failure, they have other interests in their lives and realize their is life after baseball. My son has a friend who was drafted high, happy go lucky and nothing bothers him, he has achieved quick success in his short time in the minor leagues, and I think it's because of his great attitude.


And I agree with IFD's post, I think what galls us the most, is those that say they never cheated, then we find out they did. That's an integrity issue, most likely the worst offense I can think of, even worse that taking the stuff.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
It’s easy to say things like you do this and you’re banned for life, but that’s easier said than done for those in charge of solving the problem. It’s like saying those who have used, or accused of using steroids, no longer have any rights. Sometimes things have to be done one step at a time according to the law.

I'm sure one of our lawyers here can help me out with this --- but, according to what law? You can't fire somebody because of race, gender, or religion (I say that as if there aren't ways around that ) But the rights we have as citizens deal, for the most part, with what our government can't do to us.

Employers, however, can establish their own standards. (Hence the need for Unions, but I digress.....slightly.) People take drug tests every day to get a job, may even have to take them periodically to keep that job. Should they test positive for illegal drugs and get canned, do you think their rights are being infringed? Then why are pro athletes so precious?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
JIMI

Don't make assumptions that you have no basis to make

I just wish I was intelligent as many of you think you are

Not to be rude, but when you say you elbowed up with the likes of Mantle, Martin and Bauer, what would you like for me to assume? The only other possible answer is that you were with "other" people that were "like" Mantle, Martin and Bauer, but they had different names.

If you would like to elaborate more on your statement as to what I'm getting wrong, it would make the game of 20 questions go faster.

To make a long story short, your assumption that alcohol in any way, shape or form helped them or any athlete cope with injuries is ludicris. That doesn't speak very highly of the athletes that performed at high levels that had injuries and didn't hit the booze.

Plain and simple the three you mentioned were "nursing" injuries 365 days a year and long after they retired from playing. If you think your argument is valid, that's fine. But when it is you against the world, bet on the world. Perhaps you could attend an AA meeting and get some feedback from them as to what they felt alcohol was their "crutch".


FWIW-Frankly, when you drop somebody's name such as you did, some might label you a "jock sniffer". Just thought you might want to know.

Orlando,

My thought was regarding Paul Byrd, he's the one that started this discussion.

The Indians signed him (picked up his option).

The suggestion was made that all 30 teams avoid him to prove a point. I believe that would cause some serious issues with the union! We must remember the union is part of this equation regarding testing and penalties. They are there to protect the players.

Pro athletes are not precious, they are sometimes valuable possessions though. And as such they have a very powerful union that is very much a part of running the game.

I guess the point is... This is a very difficult problem to deal with. It's not always just right or wrong that dictates how things need to be handled. I actually see some serious head way from where we were only a couple years ago.

Jimmy ( I cant call you JIMI because there was only one)


I am not name dropping--just using an example--


I also have amajor problem with people like you who have to use anothers name-- If you have been reading this site long enough you know I am not AFRAID TO BE WHO I AM and don't back down to anyone--take it or leave it I am who I am-- I have no need to name drop--no need to use others to further my argument--in fact I am prbably an older guitar player than you but I saw no need to put that in my profile--this is a baseball site--not a gutiar site


PG

You make some great points about the MLB union situation--just saw where there may be problems if AROD talks to the Yankees without Boras as part of the conversation---apparently once a player has an agent he, the player,cannot wheel and deal on his own--this is apparently part of the bargaining agreement---even at my age I can learn something everyday

PG, if none of the teams elected to sign a player who had tested positive for a banned substance (Byrd or anybody else), that might be read by the union as collusion and there could be repercussions.

This would put the union in the position of actively defending a player with proof of wrongdoing. Not an enviable position, or perhaps, a tenable one.

Of course, it could also be seen as a sign that baseball actually wanted to clean itself up.

My point was to comment on your suggestion that the process had to be approached "by the law". I don't know of any state/federal law that requires continuation of employment if an employee violates the rules of employment. Help on that one, counselors?

Perhaps you meant by the agreement with the Player's Union. Does anyone know if there is a clause in the agreement covering guarenteed employment for players testing positive? We all know about the prescribed suspensions, but that would only be in the case of clubs who wished to keep the player.

Of course I understand that as long as a player is throwing/hitting/fielding well enough to assist in wins and putting bodies in seats, the owners aren't as concerned as parents who would rather our children not put questionable substances into their bodies. Or have to compete with those who have with relative impunity.

i found this interesting,looks like lots of laws broken.
---------------------------------------------------


Confusion reigns over U.S. rules on growth hormone even as crackdown is increased

By DAVID B. CARUSO
Associated Press Writer


Article Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2007
NEW YORK (AP) — Jeffrey George had no background in health care when he founded his business to sell human growth hormone on the Internet.

But even though most uses of the drug are illegal, he is absolutely certain that selling HGH isn't against the law, as long as customers have a prescription.

"It's the same thing as getting antibiotics," the 26-year-old bodybuilder said in a recent interview.

His confidence is understandable. Seventeen years after Congress made it a felony to distribute synthetic HGH improperly, there is still confusion about who may legally get the drug.

Doctors, pharmacists and even law enforcement agents disagree about the meaning of the law that, at least on paper, appears to ban prescriptions for HGH for anything other than a handful of rare illnesses.

The Food and Drug Administration has warned that anyone who distributes HGH for athletic enhancement or as an anti-aging remedy faces up to five years in prison, but that threat is rarely enforced.

Web sites frequented by bodybuilders brazenly hawk mail-order growth hormone as a way of increasing strength and stamina.

George's company, South Beach Rejuvenation and Health, touts the drug as a "fountain of youth," capable of removing wrinkles and boosting *** drive.

"Rejuvenation" centers catering to aging Baby Boomers offer HGH injections as a remedy for everything from low energy to expanding waistlines.

Distributors, according to a recent FDA alert, have increasingly offered to fulfill demand by importing unapproved versions of the drug from China, even though all such shipments are flatly illegal.

After years of treating it as a minor problem, some law enforcement agencies have recently turned more attention to HGH.

In September, the founder of one of China's largest drug manufacturers, the GeneScience Pharmaceuticals Company, was indicted on federal charges that he smuggled huge amounts of HGH into the U.S.

Last month, state officials seized $7.5 million in Chinese-made growth hormone from a Brooklyn pharmacy that had been supplying anti-aging clinics in New York and Florida.

A St. Louis pharmacy company, Specialty Distribution Systems Inc., agreed to pay a $10.5 million fine for distributing HGH to athletes, entertainers and others who didn't qualify for treatment.

And since the spring, a long list of doctors, clinic owners and pharmacy operators from several states have faced charges in Albany that they distributed HGH and steroids to patients who had no medical need for the drugs.

However, authorities acknowledge that the crackdown has been limited.

Prosecutors have been especially reluctant to take on one of the largest sources of HGH: Doctors who prescribe the drug as part of an anti-aging regimen.

Under the law, physicians are allowed to prescribe HGH when a patient's pituitary gland stops producing normal amounts of hormone, usually because it has been damaged by a tumor or a cancer treatment like surgery or radiation therapy.

Since the early 1990s, however, a minority of doctors have claimed that millions of other adults also can be legitimately said to have a hormone deficiency because the pituitary gland naturally tapers off HGH production after a person reaches middle age.

The growth of that approach infuriates doctors like Thomas Perls, an aging expert at Boston University Medical School, who said that while HGH has legitimate benefits there is little evidence to back claims it can slow aging.

"It's the worst kind of quackery," he said.

It also may not be safe, he said. Some studies have suggested that people who take HGH supplements run a greater risk of getting cancer. HGH treatment can also have side effects like joint pain and diabetes.

Prosecuting doctors, however, isn't easy. Just last week, one of the FDA's few efforts to crack down on a doctor ended in failure. A federal jury acquitted Reno, Nev., physician James Forsythe, who was charged in 2005 with prescribing HGH to middle-aged patients who wanted to get into better shape. Forsythe denied doing anything wrong.

State medical boards also appear loath to discipline physicians.

New York's Board for Professional Medical Conduct has taken action against only a handful of doctors in the past two decades for writing unwarranted HGH prescriptions.

After Albany Country District Attorney P. David Soares complained last spring that legal loopholes had made it more difficult to target doctors selling the drug to bodybuilders, Sen. Charles Schumer proposed a bill that would put HGH in the same regulatory category as narcotics and steroids.

At least some people in the business agree that changes are needed.

"The industry is polluted with the wrong types of people," said Brian Cotugno, a Floridian who worked as a consultant to several hormone replacement clinics.

Like George, Cotugno's original background wasn't in medicine. As a young man, he served a 10-year prison sentence for cocaine trafficking.

After his release, he said, he became a consultant, telling clinics how to satisfy government regulations. But he said many of his clients ignored advice that might cut into their profits.

Cotugno said he recently stopped advising the clinics, and abandoned a small HGH marketing business of his own.

"It always ended with some sort of disastrous scenario," he said.