Have heard few families decide to keep their player back a year. Talking 8th graders here. One even decided to do virtual home school. Why would someone do this?
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Chasing an athletic scholarship.
A kid will more physically mature for his grade if he’s a year older. It can benefit at recruiting time.
I’m not a fan. If a kid isn’t emotionally mature to start school at five hold him back from starting for a year. Our school district tests for kindergarten readiness. Once starting school I’m a proponent of a post grad year on the back end, if needed rather than holding a kid back at the beginning of high school.
i wonder how many kids get held back before high school for athletic reasons then don’t get athletic scholarships.
Repeating 8th grade is very common here (Southern California), along with the virtual home school. The kid enters freshman year and is bigger and stronger than his peers, and if he's a good ball player he looks like a stud. This gets the kid to varsity faster, and with PG now using the players grade for tournaments, it helps in those events too. I think this definitely gets the kid looks from colleges earlier, and perhaps looks that he wouldn't have gotten.
Risks? I've seen some of these "stud" freshman lose their edge as their peers catch up. The perception (and maybe reality) is that they aren't improving, that they sort of peaked and plateaued early. By Junior year people are wondering what happened to that kid and how is he going to survive at Big Name school.
In one metro area I'm familiar with it is almost the norm in many circles to hold the boy back somewhere, girls not so much, and the earlier the better. Yes, it's all about athletics and most in the area I'm thinking try to do it early, like in elementary years. I'm more familiar with the Jr year HS "reclass" option (usually a boy transferring from public HS to private HS and repeating Jr year at new private school), or as RJM references the PG ("post grad" or 5th year of HS) year.
Son currently doing a PG year now at a school of 1100 total students. 25 PG boys (football, lacrosse, hockey, basketball mostly), 4 PG girls.
Benefits: if athlete still has projection remaining, allows them to grow and settle into frame and mature across the board.
Risks: Intellectually and academically? None, in my opinion. Recruiting wise? Can extend window of recruitment if, IF, athlete improves markedly from previous year. If nothing changes? No further physical growth or development? Most likely not a game changer.
Risks? Kids hate their parents because they are embarrassed in front of their peers. Their friends move on to the next grade, they stay behind. They are labelled as dumb by their friends. You also get another year to do their laundry, clean up behind them.
Advantages? Another year for you to save for college. Maybe you get your grass cut for another year. Maybe.
If the kid is young for his grade (graduate at 17) , wants to stay back a year, has access to quality education, then go for it. Kid will be off to college before you know it anyway. Might as well enjoy having him at home another year. JMO
I’ve seen or heard of it a few times with folks that I know or know of and it’s mostly been done to gain an athletic edge. Not that it hasn’t happened but I’ve never seen or heard of it done with a non-athlete.
It can absolutely help a kid get into college but I have also seen it hurt a kid’s draft stock.
No doubt, it is a step NOT to be taken lightly.
Rarely happens in the rural area where I live and coach now. In more suburban areas where there are a lot of private day schools, it is more common, especially for athletes.
If done later in HS, and if done haphazardly, it can have potentially negative consequences if not done for a seemingly legitimate reason (makeup year for a year lost due to injury or other reason, shoring up academics for HA recruiting, shoring up skill set, etc) it can appear to be an act of desperation and likely a turnoff for coaches recruiting; especially if the kid is still the same kid they saw the previous year and closed the book on.
Former travel ball player of mine was a very gifted baseball and basketball player age 12-14. He graduated 8th grade middle school and dad enrolled him in the local Catholic school for another year of 8th grade. Dad then sent boy to local HS for the next year of 9th grade. Then somehow managed to get him transferred to crosstown public HS for 10th grade, and yes, 4 years and 4 different schools. A bit much for my taste, but not my kid so more power to him.
In the end the young man is playing baseball in college. Worked out for him but I think he would have played college ball if he stayed true to his original grad year.
So we held our son back before going into middle school. It was not for athletics. He was young for his age (late summer birthday). He went to a private Christian school and was always the youngest in his class (was subject to bullying) . All his friends from LL that lived nearby all were in a grade lower than him and attended the local public school. Wife and I could tell he was not comfortable at his school so we talked about holding him back a year and transferring him to the local public school to repeat the 6th grade. We asked our son if he was okay with this and he said he was. This extra year made the world of difference for my son as far as maturity and confidence. This was the best thing we could have ever done for him. He had a great MS and HS experience both academically, socially and athletically.
I have seen it done in conjunction with moves that do not affect the kid because no one knew about holding them back except the administration. When done without the move, it would be tough. Some will transfer their kid to a private school and then back to the public school. I don't think there is all the ridicule that is suggested because when it is done all the little Johnnies know why it is being done. When that particular little Johnny is starting as a freshman on varsity all the ridicule goes away. I cannot imagine the home school thing unless you are a stay at home parent plus they would lose a year of school ball.
As has been said, it is not to be taken lightly. I think the kid has to be on board with the decision.
Go44dad posted:Risks? Kids hate their parents because they are embarrassed in front of their peers. Their friends move on to the next grade, they stay behind. They are labelled as dumb by their friends. You also get another year to do their laundry, clean up behind them.
Advantages? Another year for you to save for college. Maybe you get your grass cut for another year. Maybe.
Strangely, it's the opposite. The kids that "redshirt" in 8th grade are known as athletes and carry a certain pride for redoing the year. Not everyone gets to do it, only the better athletes... go figure.
(Just my opinion. In this area, one size definitely doesn't fit all.)
If a kid is succeeding academically and socially the reason for holding a kid back in eighth grade would be purely for athletic reasons. It is an undeniable truth that a kid will be bigger and stronger with that added year and gain the desired advantage in HS tryouts.
Conversely, the message conveyed is that athletics rule the roost; academics and social maturity issues are secondary. When the time comes to crack the academic whip in HS (when girls, driving, long showers , and other issues arise) which virtually all kids require, what will be the new message conveyed? Will the kid understand that the multi-month test prep is far more important than athletics?
Andecdotal evidence doesn't really prove any general principle, but the kids I knew from who were held back (strictly for the sports advantage) did play their sport(s) in HS and most were advantaged by the hold back (as strictly defined by sport performance). None played beyond HS; and none caught fire academically in HS. AND, their peers who moved on to HS in normal time, left their former peers to repeat that middle school grade. New friends I'm sure we're made by both groups.
College coaches do look less at projection and more to immediate potential impact; pro ball looks more at projections. Take that for what is is.
I wish I had the crystal ball which is needed to choose which path is better. Just understand the advantages and disadvantages in holding a kid back for purely athletic reasons. I'd add that if a kid is struggling academically, diagnosing the reason early and aggressively addressing it is far more preferable then believing a repeat of material from eighth grade will improve academic performance.
It's been mentioned in a few of the posts, but the age of the kid relative to his classmates is really important. If a kid is already older than a lot of his classmates (typically birthday just missed the normal cut-off date for a school district) and then he is held back another year, that can be really hard on the kid. In today's information age, kids know how old kids are and they will think a kid who is that much older was held back because he could not handle school.
You can go to the PG website and see how old a player is. We had a kid we knew who was a junior in HS but was older than all but one of the seniors on the team. They used to call him "old man" and such and he was good natured about it, but I wonder what he really thought. But if a kid is young compared to his classmates and tends to be grouped on 12U and 14U teams with kids at the grade below him, holding him back makes more sense.
Definitely not a decision to made hastily and without full support of the kid.
different for every kid, my sons best friend repeated 8th grade at a private hs before coming back to our public hs.
He was young for his grade, played little league with kids a grade younger and all his friends were in the grade behind him. he was a late bloomer physically as well. They held him back for all of these reasons, and yes, athletics was part of the overall equation. I don't blame them in the least- it was right for their boy. He's a freshman at a d2 school and got his first start yesterday, he's well adjusted and has good grades- so far so good. Had they not held him back he would not be where he is now. worked out well for them.
The private schools often require a recruited athlete to repeat 9th grade. They believe the kids haven’t been challenged academically in the past to what they will experience at a high academic private school.
i know a kid who went from public school after 9th grade to Catholic school repeating 9th grade. He had an August birthday. I believe it helped him athletically. Plus he was now in the same grade as all his baseball buddies. The LL deadline used to be 7/31.
Someone mentioned physical and emotional maturity. I started school at four years old. I was supposed to be a boy genius. My parents overlooked one thing. By 8th grade I was very physically and emotionally immature for my grade. The treatment I got from older kids (everyone was older) starting affecting my desire to get up and go to school.
We moved after 8th grade. My father decided to have me repeat 8th grade. I fit in. I returned to getting all A’s. I went from being a kid who made the lineup in sports to a dominant player. In any aged based rec sports I had always been dominant in my age group. A year makes a big difference before growing and filling out.
Player 1: Late August/September birthday. Not held back
Fresh 14 yo: 5'6 140 lbs, 78 mph
Soph 15 yo: 5'8 150 lbs, 82 mph
Junior: 16 yo: 5'11 165 lbs, 88 mph
Senior: 17 yo: 6'0 17 170lbs, ???
Player 2: Same Birthday. Same player, just held back
Fresh 15 yo: 5'8 150 lbs 82 mph
Soph 16 yo: 5'11 160 lbs 88 mph
Junior 17 yo: 6'1 170 lbs 91 mph
Senior 18 yo: 6'2 180 lbs 93 mph
Player 1 is a solid player but D1 schools didn't come running. He missed the P5 train and most likely a good amount of mid majors. His options would probably be lower D1/D2/D3/Juco. Will always be the youngest in his grade, kids from the grade below could even be older. He will be 16 when he starts his senior year of hs and 17 when he heads off to college unable to sign any paperwork if he ever gets sick or injured.
Player 2 is a top player in his state. Committed to a P5/quality mid major in between his sophomore/junior year. Most likely a draft prospect of some sort. Would have been invited to Area Code, ECP, and will play with one of the better summer teams (potentially for less $). Will be the first in his class to drive, first to turn 21, etc.
I'm not pro redshirt, nor do I have many problems with it. But we all know it's for sport specific purposes 95% of the time. Compare player 1 to 2 and tell me it can't make a big difference?
There are so many variables it’s hard to say what is the right direction to take. Each situation is it’s own case. I’m a proponent of post grading on the back end. My son was seventeen when he graduated. It didn’t matter. I know and know of kids who stayed back heading into high school who did not become better college sports prospects.
It really comes down to “do no harm.” If the kid isn’t harmed by being held back, regardless of the end result, so what.
No question about it, being held back will have him physically bigger and mentally more mature than if he wasn't. No guarantee he will be a better baseball player though. If main objective is to try to get as much college scholarship opportunities or pro looks then the gamble of holding back may pay off. Can also backfire though. Assuming he gets a scholly, redshirts freshman year, has a decent 3 years playing D1 ball, enters the draft as a 23 y/o Jr, might not be too desirable in draft eval. 2 - 4 years in minors minimum, now a 25-28 y/o trying to reach the show. I know of 3 cases where the above is happening, and I'm sure there are cases where it turned out great (just I'm not aware of them). If it makes sense to be held back excluding athletics/baseball then might be appealing. There is much more to being a top baseball player in higher levels than just being physically bigger in high school. Trust the process.
A practical benefit of re-classing really presented itself to my son and me on a recent weekend. He attended his first "big" showcase (he is a 2020). In his group was a kid who I figured was roughly similar. They were the biggest ones in the group, my kid a bit bigger. I noticed from the roster that they were born in the same month. My son was a good bit faster and hit well, but the other kid squared up more balls and had a more polished swing. My son looked better in the field. They both made the all prospect list.
A week or so later I checked the PBR Rankings for our state. My son is 50+.... not bad, but not earth shattering. I looked for the other kid but didn't find him. Then it hit me...I checked the 2021 list and the kid is right toward the very top in the state. As a 16 year old freshman I guess he re-classed somewhere along the way.
To be honest had I previously known how prevalent and accepted the practice is I would have suggested to my wife that we strongly consider it.
My son and i sometimes discuss the "what if" he was held back (2018 that will be 17 when he graduates)...he committed to a regional dominate D3 --he's also gained 20 pounds of muscle the past few months (6'1/180). He was excepted into a doctorates program and has a substantial merit amount...
then i say, "oh well...it wasn't meant to be" and we start talking about how great it is to achieve what he has achieved and we forget about what could have been.
phillyinNJ posted:My son and i sometimes discuss the "what if" he was held back (2018 that will be 17 when he graduates)...he committed to a regional dominate D3 --he's also gained 20 pounds of muscle the past few months (6'1/180). He was excepted into a doctorates program and has a substantial merit amount...
then i say, "oh well...it wasn't meant to be" and we start talking about how great it is to achieve what he has achieved and we forget about what could have been.
This is the best attitude! My daughter is very young for her "grade". She is playing DI volleyball at a smaller Northeast school and is in her Soph. year. We now realize that, if she were in the grade behind, she would have received much more recruting attention and offers (not B10 or anything, but bigger more well-funded programs). She loves it where she'a at though and we are very fortunate for the opportunity so we just focus on that and forget about the what ifs.
Thanks for all the comments. My son is a young 2022 and will start college at 17. So far he can keep up with his academics and sports, but I am intrigued by the PG option.
I've seen dads so it around 8th grade for sports. I've seen other parents send their kids to private schools and when they migrate to public, they start a year behind. Others use the homeschooling excuse or whatever. I say do whatever floats your boat, we "held" our son back in kindergarten as my wife was an educator and my son was a bit unfocused and she conferred with many who advised her that would have the least effect vs later in life. We had zero idea he would play baseball or any sport really. He was a young 2014 then and older 2015 afterwards which i guess could have helped him in baseball but he was still smaller than his teammates from about 12U thru HS. It was about maturity in the classroom back then.
2022NYC posted:Thanks for all the comments. My son is a young 2022 and will start college at 17. So far he can keep up with his academics and sports, but I am intrigued by the PG option.
For what it's worth, my son was a young hs graduate, graduated at 17. We knew about the holding back scenario but never really considered it, nor do we regret our decision. We can play the what if game all we want but at the end of the day we are grateful (like many others here) of what he achieved. Many tend to focus on the positives but I believe there are just as many negatives. For example, your held back kid gets a scholly to a P5 school because he is bigger, faster, better coordinated compared to others. Gets marginal playing time among the "big boys". On the flip side your age/grade appropriate son gets a scholly to a mid-D1 where he grows some and absolutely dominates on the field. If your son has the mojo of what it takes to get to the next level it will happen. Fate has a funny way of balancing out the playing field. Trust in the process, trust in Him.
Qhead posted:phillyinNJ posted:My son and i sometimes discuss the "what if" he was held back (2018 that will be 17 when he graduates)...he committed to a regional dominate D3 --he's also gained 20 pounds of muscle the past few months (6'1/180). He was excepted into a doctorates program and has a substantial merit amount...
then i say, "oh well...it wasn't meant to be" and we start talking about how great it is to achieve what he has achieved and we forget about what could have been.
This is the best attitude! My daughter is very young for her "grade". She is playing DI volleyball at a smaller Northeast school and is in her Soph. year. We now realize that, if she were in the grade behind, she would have received much more recruting attention and offers (not B10 or anything, but bigger more well-funded programs). She loves it where she'a at though and we are very fortunate for the opportunity so we just focus on that and forget about the what ifs.
A girl being young for her grade isn’t that relevant. Girls emotionally and physically mature much sooner than boys. They start drawing attention from 14-16 years old. My daughter was seventeen when she graduated. She got her first offer the summer after freshman year. She committed the next spring before summer travel started.
RJM posted:Qhead posted:phillyinNJ posted:My son and i sometimes discuss the "what if" he was held back (2018 that will be 17 when he graduates)...he committed to a regional dominate D3 --he's also gained 20 pounds of muscle the past few months (6'1/180). He was excepted into a doctorates program and has a substantial merit amount...
then i say, "oh well...it wasn't meant to be" and we start talking about how great it is to achieve what he has achieved and we forget about what could have been.
This is the best attitude! My daughter is very young for her "grade". She is playing DI volleyball at a smaller Northeast school and is in her Soph. year. We now realize that, if she were in the grade behind, she would have received much more recruting attention and offers (not B10 or anything, but bigger more well-funded programs). She loves it where she'a at though and we are very fortunate for the opportunity so we just focus on that and forget about the what ifs.
A girl being young for her grade isn’t that relevant. Girls emotionally and physically mature much sooner than boys. They start drawing attention from 14-16 years old. My daughter was seventeen when she graduated. She got her first offer the summer after freshman year. She committed the next spring before summer travel started.
It was in our daughter's instance, especially as her recruiting class was stacked at her position compared with the following year. We were specifically told that by club coaches and college coaches that wished she were a grade younger. Sorry for the sidetrack from the OP which is of course is about 8th grade young men and baseball.
Unless your daughter had a very small list of where she was willing to go to college there’s no such thing as a stacked class. But if she’s happy where she is where she didn’t go doesn’t matter.
In our state once an athlete plays 7th grade ball, they’re only able to play ball for an additional 5 years. My son has a girl in his class that was having trouble with seizures. Parents decided to hold her back to repeat 8th grade due to this & having an April birthday. She travels with her basketball & softball team to all of the games, but isn’t playing, so that she’ll be eligible to play 9-12. One kid from our school didn’t find out the rules & repeated 7th grade. Ended up not being eligible to play his senior year. Definitely find out your states rules before placing your kid in that situation.
My 2037 (negative two months old as we speak) will simply be started late. His birthday would put him class of 2036. But having learned from mistakes with the others we will hold this one back right from the very beginning. As long as May 1 remains for some mysterious reason the cutoff for baseball. Youth ball should however just sync up with high school. Bottom line is it right to hold back? What does that even mean? Right and wrong are so obscure. Does it give your kid an advantage? You bet. Since I am in the business of caring about my kid more than yours I am holding him back!
2020dad posted:My 2037 (negative two months old as we speak) will simply be started late. His birthday would put him class of 2036. But having learned from mistakes with the others we will hold this one back right from the very beginning. As long as May 1 remains for some mysterious reason the cutoff for baseball. Youth ball should however just sync up with high school. Bottom line is it right to hold back? What does that even mean? Right and wrong are so obscure. Does it give your kid an advantage? You bet. Since I am in the business of caring about my kid more than yours I am holding him back!
The knew trick will be keeping them in the womb for a year longer and growing. Sell that to your wife. 
This is a family decision. There is no right answer that fits all. My Baseball son had a Sept birthday. We sent him to school with his class. We had no idea of this thing called baseball recruiting, or playing for varsity in HS. We had an idea that he would be relatively gifted, at whatever he decided to do, but heck he had only played Tee-Ball. I never played High School Sports, so this never came into our thought process, until he got into middle school, and we found out that most the kids in the class behind him were quite a bit older.
However by this time he was doing well in school both socially and academically. He was always a starter in Middle school. In fact there were many complaints from other parents on why he received so much playing time. Freshman year he was so much smaller than all the other players in his class. He still hit high in the line up, and started every game at first. (god only knows why, everybody else considered him an outfielder except the Freshman coach.) He was the first in his class to make varsity. Grew a lot from his freshman to senior year. Played and had a good experience at a D3 school.
Would he have played at D1 or a level higher than D3 had we held him back? I doubt it.
However that is just my Families story, it does not have to or should be yours. Judge what is best for your son and family. Had we known more about athletics we may have started him a year later. However I do not believe we could have gotten by-in from my child or the school system, had we tried it after he started school. School has very strict rules on holding back a student. And at the time I could not afford to send him to a private.
Also take that newborn and make him use his left hand for everything. It will be better in the end. LOL I agree. It is what is best for the family not a generic for everyone.
My 9th grader is a true freshman (14, end of May birthday). He attends a smaller school in the LA City Section, so he was able to make the varsity team. However, we have heard many stories of good ball players who cannot make their freshman team at private schools primarily because they are at least a year younger and thus smaller than most of the other boys trying out. He played on a very strong travel team last summer, class of 2021 team. I believe only two of the players on that team qualified to play 13u last summer, as most had been held back at some point. As one of the youngest and smallest, he had to step up his game. I think it was good for him. He has been adding weight, so he'll likely catch up to the other 2021s in size soon. A friends son went to a D2 school, they said when they were recruiting him that they liked the fact that he was only 17 as a hs senior, as he still had time to grow and get stronger.
We have no regrets not holding our son back, but depending on where your son goes to hs, you should be aware that in some areas the practice of repeating 8th grade solely for sports purposes might be more common than you think.
PitchingFan posted:Also take that newborn and make him use his left hand for everything. It will be better in the end. LOL I agree. It is what is best for the family not a generic for everyone.
Just don’t sit next to him at the dinner table.
in Texas you have to do it 7th grade year, UIL calendar starts in 8th grade, you have 5 yrs to compete. you might be able to do it and switch to a private school possibly. I had a few friends who stayed back when I was growing up and it worked out for one of them, Heisman trophy winner, 14 yr career in the NFL.
gunner34 posted:in Texas you have to do it 7th grade year, UIL calendar starts in 8th grade, you have 5 yrs to compete. you might be able to do it and switch to a private school possibly. I had a few friends who stayed back when I was growing up and it worked out for one of them, Heisman trophy winner, 14 yr career in the NFL.
Gunner,
I have an honest question and I am not trying to be snide. Do you think that having the extra year helped the player become a Heisman trophy winner? Would he have missed that opportunity if he was not held back. I understand we will never truly know, just looking for your educated guess.
Kids either have the work ethic & talent or they don't. An extra year isn't going to help a lazy kid. A "late bloomer" with talent & drive will be able to find opportunities.
It is true that in the long run, probably by the time everyone hits their early 20s, things even out. Talent has either presented itself or not and a year or so here or there doesn't really make a difference. However, along the way there are certain times that are more critical to "career path" than others.
Freshman year of HS is one of those times...it is where a player starts to develop his reputation. If a kid who re-classes is more likely to separate himself as a freshman he has given himself a leg up that he can leverage going forward. He still needs talent, and still needs to work. And there will be late bloomers...reclassing doesn't provide any guarantees...simply an important leg up at an important time.
Benefits (athletic): player is better than he otherwise would be in that grade. That seems self-evident.
Risks (athletic): although the player is better than he otherwise would be in that grade, he's still not good enough to earn a scholly.
Here's an article from a few years ago. BTW, Mr Gerhart held all his kids back:
www.sandiegouniontribune.com/s...may10-htmlstory.html
An excerpt:
"Sociologists call it the relative age effect, or RAE.
It is a fancy way of saying that whenever children are grouped in one-year increments, those born immediately after the birthday cutoff can have mental and physical advantages compared to those born immediately before it. That the kid who is 11 years, 11 months old usually is a better pitcher in the under-12 league than the kid who just had his 11th birthday.
The older kid also gets the most playing time and often is selected to all-star or elite teams, where he is exposed to better coaching and a higher level of competition – which, of course, just makes him better. At a certain point, researchers suggest, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Most RAE research has been conducted in Europe. One of the most extensive studies, published in 2005 in the Journal of Sports Science, compiled birth dates of 2,175 players (mostly boys) from youth national soccer teams of 10 European countries. The findings: 43.4 percent were born in the first three months after the Jan. 1 cutoff date, and only 9.3 percent in the year's final three months.
The RAE, the British and Belgian researchers wrote, “may result in significant differences in performance.” Numerous studies in the U.S. and elsewhere have reached similar conclusions.
And that's just for children who are six to 12 months older. Imagine the benefits of being 18 months older, or a full two years older.
Fifteen members of USC's 108-man football roster from last season, or 14 percent, are at least a year older than their natural class. At USA Basketball's Youth Development Festival in 2007, which gathered 30 of the nation's top boys high school players, 19 were a year (and in some cases two years) older than their typical classmates."
A small sample and extremely anecdotal, but, the vast majority of kids from my son's "age group" in LL who are now Sophomores (my kid is a Freshman) are extremely mediocre players now. They benefited from being bigger at ages 10-12 and seemingly bought into being told how good they were.
Keep in mind we aren't in a Baseball hotbed and kids don't have to work hard to get spots on Varsity. But being on the May through Summer side of the May 1st birthday cutoff definitely did not benefit most of the kids who in 6th Grade were competing against 5th graders.
3and2Fastball posted:A small sample and extremely anecdotal, but, the vast majority of kids from my son's "age group" in LL who are now Sophomores (my kid is a Freshman) are extremely mediocre players now. They benefited from being bigger at ages 10-12 and seemingly bought into being told how good they were.
Keep in mind we aren't in a Baseball hotbed and kids don't have to work hard to get spots on Varsity. But being on the May through Summer side of the May 1st birthday cutoff definitely did not benefit most of the kids who in 6th Grade were competing against 5th graders.
Right. But it sounds like they benefited from the relative age effect when they were on the older side (say, a May birthday in little league) but now they are suffering from the relative age effect because they are on the younger side (i.e., their parents didn't hold them back, so they are currently 15 in March of sophomore year). In other words, they would be less mediocre as freshmen than they are as sophomores.
2019Dad posted:3and2Fastball posted:A small sample and extremely anecdotal, but, the vast majority of kids from my son's "age group" in LL who are now Sophomores (my kid is a Freshman) are extremely mediocre players now. They benefited from being bigger at ages 10-12 and seemingly bought into being told how good they were.
Keep in mind we aren't in a Baseball hotbed and kids don't have to work hard to get spots on Varsity. But being on the May through Summer side of the May 1st birthday cutoff definitely did not benefit most of the kids who in 6th Grade were competing against 5th graders.
Right. But it sounds like they benefited from the relative age effect when they were on the older side (say, a May birthday in little league) but now they are suffering from the relative age effect because they are on the younger side (i.e., their parents didn't hold them back, so they are currently 15 in March of sophomore year). In other words, they would be less mediocre as freshmen than they are as sophomores.
Perhaps. They'd still be mediocre, but would have an extra year to make up for it. Problem being that the work ethic might not be there. They've gotten away with being physically bigger & stronger than their competition. Would that continue if they were on the Freshman team? To a degree, yes. Which might not help them moving forwards.
Every athlete at some point or some level reaches that "light bulb" moment of realizing they need to work much much harder. Once you are in high school, time is really slipping away when it comes to opportunities to advance. Delaying that "light bulb" moment might not help.
BishopLeftiesDad posted:gunner34 posted:in Texas you have to do it 7th grade year, UIL calendar starts in 8th grade, you have 5 yrs to compete. you might be able to do it and switch to a private school possibly. I had a few friends who stayed back when I was growing up and it worked out for one of them, Heisman trophy winner, 14 yr career in the NFL.
Gunner,
I have an honest question and I am not trying to be snide. Do you think that having the extra year helped the player become a Heisman trophy winner? Would he have missed that opportunity if he was not held back. I understand we will never truly know, just looking for your educated guess.
I'm sure he would have been fine, he was a great player but small, he started off at same high school as me also and the coaches were big how much do you lift, how fast do you run types and that was not him still. He went to play for his father at a smaller school and turned into quite the prolific passer who set many high school records and his younger brother broke those. He was never a physical specimen.
3and2Fastball posted:2019Dad posted:3and2Fastball posted:A small sample and extremely anecdotal, but, the vast majority of kids from my son's "age group" in LL who are now Sophomores (my kid is a Freshman) are extremely mediocre players now. They benefited from being bigger at ages 10-12 and seemingly bought into being told how good they were.
Keep in mind we aren't in a Baseball hotbed and kids don't have to work hard to get spots on Varsity. But being on the May through Summer side of the May 1st birthday cutoff definitely did not benefit most of the kids who in 6th Grade were competing against 5th graders.
Right. But it sounds like they benefited from the relative age effect when they were on the older side (say, a May birthday in little league) but now they are suffering from the relative age effect because they are on the younger side (i.e., their parents didn't hold them back, so they are currently 15 in March of sophomore year). In other words, they would be less mediocre as freshmen than they are as sophomores.
Perhaps. They'd still be mediocre, but would have an extra year to make up for it. Problem being that the work ethic might not be there. They've gotten away with being physically bigger & stronger than their competition. Would that continue if they were on the Freshman team? To a degree, yes. Which might not help them moving forwards.
Every athlete at some point or some level reaches that "light bulb" moment of realizing they need to work much much harder. Once you are in high school, time is really slipping away when it comes to opportunities to advance. Delaying that "light bulb" moment might not help.
But if you look at Nebase's hypothetical situation, you can see the difference... (Sorry don't know how to quote older posts)
From Nebase
Player 1: Late August/September birthday. Not held back
Fresh 14 yo: 5'6 140 lbs, 78 mph
Soph 15 yo: 5'8 150 lbs, 82 mph
Junior: 16 yo: 5'11 165 lbs, 88 mph
Senior: 17 yo: 6'0 17 170lbs, ???
Player 2: Same Birthday. Same player, just held back
Fresh 15 yo: 5'8 150 lbs 82 mph
Soph 16 yo: 5'11 160 lbs 88 mph
Junior 17 yo: 6'1 170 lbs 91 mph
Senior 18 yo: 6'2 180 lbs 93 mph
Player 1 is a solid player but D1 schools didn't come running. He missed the P5 train and most likely a good amount of mid majors. His options would probably be lower D1/D2/D3/Juco. Will always be the youngest in his grade, kids from the grade below could even be older. He will be 16 when he starts his senior year of hs and 17 when he heads off to college unable to sign any paperwork if he ever gets sick or injured.
Player 2 is a top player in his state. Committed to a P5/quality mid major in between his sophomore/junior year. Most likely a draft prospect of some sort. Would have been invited to Area Code, ECP, and will play with one of the better summer teams (potentially for less $). Will be the first in his class to drive, first to turn 21, etc.
I'm not pro redshirt, nor do I have many problems with it. But we all know it's for sport specific purposes 95% of the time. Compare player 1 to 2 and tell me it can't make a big difference?
3and2Fastball posted:2019Dad posted:3and2Fastball posted:A small sample and extremely anecdotal, but, the vast majority of kids from my son's "age group" in LL who are now Sophomores (my kid is a Freshman) are extremely mediocre players now. They benefited from being bigger at ages 10-12 and seemingly bought into being told how good they were.
Keep in mind we aren't in a Baseball hotbed and kids don't have to work hard to get spots on Varsity. But being on the May through Summer side of the May 1st birthday cutoff definitely did not benefit most of the kids who in 6th Grade were competing against 5th graders.
Right. But it sounds like they benefited from the relative age effect when they were on the older side (say, a May birthday in little league) but now they are suffering from the relative age effect because they are on the younger side (i.e., their parents didn't hold them back, so they are currently 15 in March of sophomore year). In other words, they would be less mediocre as freshmen than they are as sophomores.
Perhaps. They'd still be mediocre, but would have an extra year to make up for it. Problem being that the work ethic might not be there. They've gotten away with being physically bigger & stronger than their competition. Would that continue if they were on the Freshman team? To a degree, yes. Which might not help them moving forwards.
Every athlete at some point or some level reaches that "light bulb" moment of realizing they need to work much much harder. Once you are in high school, time is really slipping away when it comes to opportunities to advance. Delaying that "light bulb" moment might not help.
No one is saying that a mediocre athlete becomes great by being held back a year. But it's crazy to think that the kids held back aren't better for their grade than they otherwise would be. That's the key: "than they otherwise would be, for their grade." The relative age effect isn't a made up thing.
Here's a real world example for you. Here's my son's data for pitching velo:
8th grade Spring: topped at 76 (weighted 125-130 lbs)
9th grade Spring: topped at 81 (weighed 145-150)
10th grade Spring: topped at 86 (weighed 165-ish)
11th grade Spring: topped at 90 (weighs 177)
If he were held back a year, he would still be eligible to play all four years under California rules. If he had been held back it would be:
8th grade Spring: topped at 81
9th grade Spring: topped at 86
10th grade Spring: topped at 90
We never thought of holding him back. It wasn't and isn't the right thing for him or us as a family. It doesn't make sense for him academically.
But it's crazy to think there's not an athletic advantage to doing so. The pitching velo thing is easy to see, but I could show the same thing for exit velo, running speed, or any athletic endeavor, really. Ages 14-19 are prime years for growing stronger, getting faster, etc. The idea that the vast majority of athletes who are working at their sports aren't better at 15 than they were at 14, or better at 16 than they were at 15, is nonsense. Sure, there is a risk that the kid who is held back still isn't good enough, or that he doesn't work hard, or there is an anecdote about a kid who stopped growing early and never got any better, yadda, yadda, yadda . . . the bottom line is that the relative age effect is a real thing. I have no problem with people who follow the state rules, and as long as the rules are being followed it's fair to my mind . . . but I think it's fantastical to pretend there is not an athletic advantage. Heck, that's why people do it.
My son, with a May birthday was recruited by a couple of private high schools. They wanted him to repeat 9th grade. He was 5’11” 135 freshman year. Skills and recruiting wise for college his metrics may have been better for his grade being one year older. But maybe he doesn’t start until junior year due to the team has a roster full of these kids of kids. He stayed at his high school and started varsity soph year. Academically the gifted program at his highly regarded high school was better than the standard academics at the academic privates. College ball worked out better than he could have hoped anyway.
Facts:
- There is more academic money available than athletic for college scholarships.
- Holding a gifted athlete back will create more collegiate athletic opportunities come his/her Sr year.
- For draft potential prospects holding back could mean a huge difference in a signing bonus and getting started in an athletic career earlier.
- The chances of making a living playing professional baseball are so small that it should not be taken into account except for a handful of players.
This decision is so personal and there are so many variables that each family should consider them carefully.
My personal preference would be for academically gifted players; keep them on track as there will be both academic and baseball opportunities if they have the athletic skills. For immature and athletic kids, there are some real benefits to holding them back. For highly gifted athletic kids there are very tangible benefits to holding them back. For the rest of the 80%, don't worry about it.
We did the opposite. We put our son a year ahead academically back in 3rd grade (when he transitioned from home school to private school) since he can handle the academics, he's mature enough, and we wanted him to be challenged academically. We did not even think about athletics nor was it even a factor. He is already one of the smaller kid in his age group, so he is definitely the smallest in his grade (which is a year older). But he fits in academically and socially so we are not worried about it. As far as athletics is concerned, we figure he will be challenged to keep up which will make him work harder and work on fundamentals more, so that when his growth spurt finally hit, he will be ahead of his peers. As far as getting athletic scholarship is concerned, that is the farthest from our mind right now. It blew our mind when we found out that some families were holding their kids back a year on purpose. But we're Asian so that may be why we think differently...
I don't like it. It creates this bizarre oddity socially and academically for the kid. It's also sort of cheating or gaming the system in some low level way.
It's recruiting posturing on Steroids. Speaking of Steroids , if were gonna hold our kids back in school for better college athletic recruiting opportunities , why don't we just take them to Dr. Balco and have him shoot'em up with 10cc's of anabolic steroids every week before the PG tourney and really watch them light the gun up .
There is more to life than baseball
Orlando2022Dad posted:Have heard few families decide to keep their player back a year. Talking 8th graders here. One even decided to do virtual home school. Why would someone do this?
"Redshirting" K-12 kids has been going on for some time now, as well as relocating kids to a better district athletically or academically. Parents are trying to help their kids get an advantage. They may be good intentions but not sure if this is the answer to everybody's problem.
Whether or not the parents are truly helping their son or daughter is the real question in my mind. I would defer to someone who is significantly more qualified for advice (psychologist or specialist) rather than running off willy-nilly to keep them back a grade because they didn't make the middle school baseball team or struggling with grades. This is a significant decision in a child's life.
gunner34 posted:BishopLeftiesDad posted:gunner34 posted:in Texas you have to do it 7th grade year, UIL calendar starts in 8th grade, you have 5 yrs to compete. you might be able to do it and switch to a private school possibly. I had a few friends who stayed back when I was growing up and it worked out for one of them, Heisman trophy winner, 14 yr career in the NFL.
Gunner,
I have an honest question and I am not trying to be snide. Do you think that having the extra year helped the player become a Heisman trophy winner? Would he have missed that opportunity if he was not held back. I understand we will never truly know, just looking for your educated guess.
I'm sure he would have been fine, he was a great player but small, he started off at same high school as me also and the coaches were big how much do you lift, how fast do you run types and that was not him still. He went to play for his father at a smaller school and turned into quite the prolific passer who set many high school records and his younger brother broke those. He was never a physical specimen.
He was also all-state in like 3 sports and the Tx High School Athlete of the year (or some award like that) with a younger brother who also played in the NFL, so he would have been ok either way I think.
In our district the only way that a child can be held back, with permission of the school. They involve the school psychologist, Teachers advisers and principals.
In my oldest sons third grade year, They wanted to hold him back and repeat the third grade. He had already been held back once, which I thought was justified. However I was against this second time. My oldest has severe ADHD. it effects him still today. If he was held back yet again it would have put him in the same class as his youngest brother. I believe that would have been harmful for both of them. My wife and I had no idea this was coming. We were called into a meeting, initiated by his teacher. After we heard that she was suggesting holding him back, we asked for a meeting with the principal. He brought in the school psychologist, after discussing our concerns, the psychologist talked to our son and to the teacher. She reviewed our sons EIP. She was very upset. The teacher had not been following his EIP, and had other reasons, she would not share to believe why the teacher wanted to hold our son back.
The Psychologist, suggested against holding him back and prescribed a teachers aid to assist and verify that his EIP was being followed. I would like to say he blossomed and did very well in school the rest of the way. Unfortunately school was always a struggle for him. However I believe if he was held back things would have been much worse for both my children.
If a child is well adjusted and doing well in school, our system will not allow the child to be held back once they have started school. In our area, parents delay sending there kid to kindergarten for a year. The Academics are well respected at our public HS. Few privates, which are mostly Catholic, hold transfers back a year.
So in many area's it is not always and easy thing to hold a child back. Many schools will want to help the child adjust, or provide assistance. If you truly believe it is beneficial, I would suggest that it be done before they start school. If my boys have sons, we will probably discuss this with them.
atlnon posted:We did the opposite. We put our son a year ahead academically back in 3rd grade (when he transitioned from home school to private school) since he can handle the academics, he's mature enough, and we wanted him to be challenged academically. We did not even think about athletics nor was it even a factor. H
This also can have ramifications, but in general I agree with you. A friend's daughter started college at 16 and at 20 was working for a major tech firm making over $100K/yr, so on the surface she is very successful, but she had social issues getting through college. Gifted kids, both athletic and academic situations are unique, but for the rest of us with "mean" kids we should keep them in the track they are in IMO.
A lot of folks talking about the awkwardness or social stigma of being held back a year and yes, if your kid is in 7th Grade of your local K-12 public school system, and you are able to have him/her held back a year, for whatever reason, there will be an awkwardness. It will be glaring. Obviously, holding the kid back for Kindergarten if you are that forward thinking and the thought of spending $ on another year of day care is not a hindrance might be easy to do, but man that's a lot of forethought.
Since it's March and Madness is in the air, click on any D1 basketball roster , and see how many players were recruited from private schools (especially rosters from schools say, east of the Mississippi River). If you really study it you'll see many of the same prep schools popping up year after year on top contending teams. Prep schools like Oak Hill, Brewster Academy, Blue Ridge, Word of God, Northfield Mount Herman, Montrose Prep, Voyageur, New Hampton, IMG, etc. I'd be willing to bet that 90% of those players attending these type of schools transferred there after their Jr. year of public HS, then repeated Jr. year again, thus dropping down a grade and "reclassing" as it is called.
As has been mentioned here already, my understanding is that Florida has restrictions on this (reclassing), as in you can't do it in Florida preps like Montverde and Bolles. And most Catholic HS across the nation don't allow it. So your powerhouse Mater Dei (CA) and DeMatha (MD) basketball kids should be true to their year.
Probably more common in the basketball world as the body type is a completely different one than the baseball one. We're talking probably a stereotypical 16yo college hoops prospect of 6-6 and 165, versus a 16yo baseball prospect of 6-0 and 185lbs . You tell me, which body type would benefit most from an 5th year of physical maturity and development in the HS years in order to physically compete with 22-23yo men?
Click on the CWS rosters in June, and you will not see the northeastern prep schools on there. You will almost exclusively see public HS, Catholic HS, and a few private day schools. A much different HS journey than the D1 basketball player. And much of it due to the quest for that 5th year of HS development. Basketball prospects need it much more than baseball college prospects. It's just the nature of the beast.
The "reclassing" move is standard fair in the college basketball recruiting world. Not even a thought. Almost assumed. Even encouraged. Not seen as awkward, or embarrassing, or anything like that. Now, in baseball? No, not the norm. That 90% quoted above turns to maybe 5%. As a matter of fact, re: MLB draft, the trend of late is one of youth. The 17yo SS stud is more coveted than the 19yo SS stud (all things being equal).
So many variables, each kid and family, so different. Just do your homework, and try to do what's best for your kid. In regards to "gaming the system" in taking that extra year, I disagree. In college basketball recruiting, it IS the system.
Do what makes your child and family happy!
I am from upstate NY. Christian Laettner’s dad had him repeat the 7th or 8th grade. It worked out for him. But now we live in Southern California, and I would say a majority of boys that show up for freshman baseball tryouts at private and catholic schools have been held back. That is just the reality. My 2021 goes to a public school, and he is big for his age, so it is not an issue for him. However, we have friends that are good ball players that have not made their freshman teams at catholic schools. The other boys are a year older and much bigger.
As for travel ball, my 2021 was the youngest and smallest on his team. I think it makes him a better player. I think he is the only player on his 2021 team that is young enough to play 14u this summer (May birthday).
He will be 17 when he is a senior, others will be 18 or 19, I don’t think that will be a problem. The only awkwardness comes when I refer to him as a true freshman.
#1 Assistant Coach posted:A lot of folks talking about the awkwardness or social stigma of being held back a year and yes, if your kid is in 7th Grade of your local K-12 public school system, and you are able to have him/her held back a year, for whatever reason, there will be an awkwardness. It will be glaring. Obviously, holding the kid back for Kindergarten if you are that forward thinking and the thought of spending $ on another year of day care is not a hindrance might be easy to do, but man that's a lot of forethought.
Since it's March and Madness is in the air, click on any D1 basketball roster , and see how many players were recruited from private schools (especially rosters from schools say, east of the Mississippi River). If you really study it you'll see many of the same prep schools popping up year after year on top contending teams. Prep schools like Oak Hill, Brewster Academy, Blue Ridge, Word of God, Northfield Mount Herman, Montrose Prep, Voyageur, New Hampton, IMG, etc. I'd be willing to bet that 90% of those players attending these type of schools transferred there after their Jr. year of public HS, then repeated Jr. year again, thus dropping down a grade and "reclassing" as it is called.
As has been mentioned here already, my understanding is that Florida has restrictions on this (reclassing), as in you can't do it in Florida preps. And most Catholic HS across the nation don't allow it. So your powerhouse Mater Dei (CA) and DeMatha (MD) basketball kids should be true to their year.
Probably more common in the basketball world as the body type is a completely different one than the baseball one. We're talking probably a stereotypical 16yo college hoops prospect of 6-6 and 165, versus a 16yo baseball prospect of 6-0 and 185lbs . You tell me, which body type would benefit most from an 5th year of physical maturity and development in the HS years in order to physically compete with 22-23yo men?
Click on the CWS rosters in June, and you will not see the northeastern prep schools on there. You will almost exclusively see public HS, Catholic HS, and a few private day schools. A much different HS journey than the D1 basketball player. And much of it due to the quest for that 5th year of HS development. Basketball prospects need it much more than baseball college prospects. It's just the nature of the beast.
The "reclassing" move is standard fair in the college basketball recruiting world. Not even a thought. Almost assumed. Even encouraged. Not seen as awkward, or embarrassing, or anything like that. Now, in baseball? No, not the norm. That 90% quoted above turns to maybe 5%. As a matter of fact, re: MLB draft, the trend of late is one of youth. The 17yo SS stud is more coveted than the 19yo SS stud (all things being equal).
So many variables, each kid and family, so different. Just do your homework, and try to do what's best for your kid. In regards to "gaming the system" in taking that extra year, I disagree. In college basketball recruiting, it IS the system.
Reclassification with basketball players is mostly done with kids who have been identified as potential studs. This is different than the act of delusional parents. Although, at the MA sectional championships sitting with a tv sports director he called a lot of parents holding their kids back to reclassify with privates delusional. My response was if the kids are going to ISL schools at least they’re getting academically challenged. But do you hold a kid back so he can play D3 sports?
RJM posted:#1 Assistant Coach posted:A lot of folks talking about the awkwardness or social stigma of being held back a year and yes, if your kid is in 7th Grade of your local K-12 public school system, and you are able to have him/her held back a year, for whatever reason, there will be an awkwardness. It will be glaring. Obviously, holding the kid back for Kindergarten if you are that forward thinking and the thought of spending $ on another year of day care is not a hindrance might be easy to do, but man that's a lot of forethought.
Since it's March and Madness is in the air, click on any D1 basketball roster , and see how many players were recruited from private schools (especially rosters from schools say, east of the Mississippi River). If you really study it you'll see many of the same prep schools popping up year after year on top contending teams. Prep schools like Oak Hill, Brewster Academy, Blue Ridge, Word of God, Northfield Mount Herman, Montrose Prep, Voyageur, New Hampton, IMG, etc. I'd be willing to bet that 90% of those players attending these type of schools transferred there after their Jr. year of public HS, then repeated Jr. year again, thus dropping down a grade and "reclassing" as it is called.
As has been mentioned here already, my understanding is that Florida has restrictions on this (reclassing), as in you can't do it in Florida preps. And most Catholic HS across the nation don't allow it. So your powerhouse Mater Dei (CA) and DeMatha (MD) basketball kids should be true to their year.
Probably more common in the basketball world as the body type is a completely different one than the baseball one. We're talking probably a stereotypical 16yo college hoops prospect of 6-6 and 165, versus a 16yo baseball prospect of 6-0 and 185lbs . You tell me, which body type would benefit most from an 5th year of physical maturity and development in the HS years in order to physically compete with 22-23yo men?
Click on the CWS rosters in June, and you will not see the northeastern prep schools on there. You will almost exclusively see public HS, Catholic HS, and a few private day schools. A much different HS journey than the D1 basketball player. And much of it due to the quest for that 5th year of HS development. Basketball prospects need it much more than baseball college prospects. It's just the nature of the beast.
The "reclassing" move is standard fair in the college basketball recruiting world. Not even a thought. Almost assumed. Even encouraged. Not seen as awkward, or embarrassing, or anything like that. Now, in baseball? No, not the norm. That 90% quoted above turns to maybe 5%. As a matter of fact, re: MLB draft, the trend of late is one of youth. The 17yo SS stud is more coveted than the 19yo SS stud (all things being equal).
So many variables, each kid and family, so different. Just do your homework, and try to do what's best for your kid. In regards to "gaming the system" in taking that extra year, I disagree. In college basketball recruiting, it IS the system.
Reclassification with basketball players is mostly done with kids who have been identified as potential studs. This is different than the act of delusional parents. Although, at the MA sectional championships sitting with a tv sports director he called a lot of parents holding their kids back to reclassify with privates delusional. My response was if the kids are going to ISL schools at least they’re getting academically challenged. But do you hold a kid back so he can play D3 sports?
Transfering public to private and repeating Jr year?? No, only for D1.
Post Grad year? To a NESCAC, UChicago, Pomona, type D3, for hockey, basketball, lacrosse, football, and maybe baseball? Sure.
(And I think you’d agree w me on this RJM)
I don’t see anything wrong with reclassifying if playing a D3 sport is going to provide an academic advantage and potential professional (real world) advantage. Reclassifying for the purpose of playing D3 sports is silly. Reclassifying to use sports to get into a NESCAC or similar isn’t.
A friend’s brother reclassified to play D3 football at Keene State. That’s silliness. It was even sillier his parents thought he was college material. He was home in a year. Looking back it’s amusing a professional guidance counselor (the mother) couldn’t see what was best for her own kid.
RJM posted:I don’t see anything wrong with reclassifying if playing a D3 sport is going to provide an academic advantage and potential professional (real world) advantage. Reclassifying for the purpose of playing D3 sports is silly. Reclassifying to use sports to get into a NESCAC or similar isn’t.
A friend’s brother reclassified to play D3 football at Keene State. That’s silliness. It was even sillier his parents thought he was college material. He was home in a year. Looking back it’s amusing a professional guidance counselor (the mother) couldn’t see what was best for her own kid.
Agreed.
This thread has certainly pulled apart the myriad ways one can keep a kid back a year and more importantly the pros and cons of doing it.
In today’s LA Times, there is an article about the California state hs basketball championships “Freshman leads View Park Prep”. I thought about this thread when later in the article, “Johnson, 16, scored 18 of his game high 22 points in the first half.” So if he is 16 as a freshman, he will be at least 20 when he is a senior. I believe California has a rule that you can be no more than 20 as a senior. I don’t begrudge his family for holding him back 2 years as they are playing the system within the rules. But it makes for a somewhat unlevel playing field.
Most states have rules about losing eligibility if turning twenty during a school year, during a sports season or specific years and month age a student may be and allowed to participate. These rules typically do not apply to privates who are not part of the state association.