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quote:
Originally posted by fillsfan:
Thanks TPM. I will look for the book today. You, along with many other "regulars" on this site are truly insightful and gracious. It is really apprciated by a novice like me.

Taking ownership of the process is rewarding. You are much less a novice today than yesterday. Good luck.
quote:
Originally posted by fillsfan:
I am trying to find out what separates players who get drafted from players who do not. I know there are tools like pitch speed, running speed and power that can't be taught that stand out when you watch games. Are these the types of things that catch the eyes of scouts.
I know there is no science to this but I am curious as to what gets a kid drafted, even in the 20th - 30th rounds.


That's an easy one. SIZE and SIZE alone.
baseballregie ...

quote:
That's an easy one. SIZE and SIZE alone.

There are many discussions on this site and everywhere else that address the 'does size matter?' question but that is hardly the only factor involved in a player's draft potential.

That statement is far too general !!! And not totally correct by any stretch of the imagination. We know lots of players who are successful and not at the top of the height charts.
quote:
Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
baseballregie ...

quote:
That's an easy one. SIZE and SIZE alone.

There are many discussions on this site and everywhere else that address the 'does size matter?' question but that is hardly the only factor involved in a player's draft potential.

That statement is far too general !!! And not totally correct by any stretch of the imagination. We know lots of players who are successful and not at the top of the height charts.


Not to mention the numerous amount of players who aren't/weren't sucessful who are at the top of the height charts.
Last edited by Wales
I read where the goal is to make the 40 man, then the 25 man roster. I believe that the goal should be, at least, to be an above average major league player. Of course, everything inside the minor leagues seems to point to simply "getting to the show." So what separates players who can be above average in the show? Talent, for sure, but talent in the mental game is as important as tools. Tools are easier to see, and therefore draft for. Physical mechanics are easier to teach, perhaps, but winning the mental game is what separates good from great.
The last player I saw in the minors that had the look was Justin Upton. He never seemed like he was just going thru the emotions of being a baseball player and never seemed rattled. At his age, that stood out. Before that it was Elijah Dukes and Delmon Young, and before them it was Jeff Francoeur. Russell Martin also really looked stood out. I got to attend a interview at the Braves Fanfest with Chipper Jones. He was asked when being a veteran how do you know that a young player will succeed. His response was the player that has the look that he thinks he is the best one on the field but its not cockiness its confidence. The question was in regards to Yunel Escobar.

Also, a lot of times I see minor league players that look like they wish they were elsewhere. The last example of this was Matt Tuiasosopo. I really don't understand how you can have success with that mindset much less force the organization to take you seriously.

Players that had some buzz during their minor league stint that just did not look like they would exceed at the major league level based on their looks were Mark Reynolds and James Loney.

So I would say its a combination of looking like you are interested, your size, realize its a job, and always remembering you are going to fail 70 % of the time.
Last edited by William77
I would suspect that its a little easier to have that "look" of confidence when you're 18, fresh out of high school, and the best in the country.

It's much harder to keep it day in and day out when dealing with the setbacks, injuries, demotions, slumps, etc. that are sure to come. Any player on any given day can loose the "look" of confidence. The best players are the ones that find it again and again after each obstacle they face, believing they are still doing what they were put on this earth to do.

IMHO the goal isn't to be an above average major leaguer, but rather to do the best you can with the hand you're dealt. Success shouldn't be measured by where you end up, but rather by what you've overcome to get to where you end up.
Last edited by TxMom
TX Mom;
This is an interesting discussion. We recently returned from Australia with our 4 teams and the Beijing State Team. Each team played 12 games in 18 days. Several players improved each day.

One player, an outfielder from Los Angeles, played in the California Championship High School game *linebacker] and two days later landed in Adelaide, South Australia, played in the baseball game and hit a triple and double. Later in Perth he hit a "towering" HR off a pro pitcher.

Since 1983, 223 ML players have played in the Goodwill Series events, including Delmon and Dimitri Young, Adam and Andy LaRoche, Bobby Jenks, Aaron Hill, Jerome Bonderman.

Each player presents a story of "perseverance".

Bob Williams
quote:
I would suspect that its a little easier to have that "look" of confidence when you're 18, fresh out of high school, and the best in the country.

It's much harder to keep it day in and day out when dealing with the setbacks, injuries, demotions, slumps, etc. that are sure to come. Any player on any given day can loose the "look" of confidence. The best players are the ones that find it again and again after each obstacle they face, believing they are still doing what they were put on this earth to do.

IMHO the goal isn't to be an above average major leaguer, but rather to do the best you can with the hand you're dealt. Success shouldn't be measured by where you end up, but rather by what you overcame to get to where you end up.


Somehow I'm not a bit surprised that this "great" post came from TXMom. Thanks!
According to perhaps the greatest coach ever (John Wooden), "success is the peace of mind that comes from knowing you did your best." Also, "don't measure yourself by what you have accomplished, but by what you should've accomplished with your ability" and "don't compare yourself to others, but never stop comparing yourself to what you can be." So I agree wholeheartedly with TxMom. That said, Nick Bollitieri warns that "Just do your best" can become a copout for many because they start to accept less than their best because they really have no idea what their best is. Therefore, "a" goal (not the goal - my mistake) for minor leaguers should also be to become an above average major leaguer, not just get there. I also think this should be a stated goal of minor league farm directors.

Please someone tell me what IMHO means. I've seen it a couple times, but have no clue. Thanks.
Coach, having heard Coach Wooden speak on two occasions, he has a way of making you aspire to utilize every talent you possess, in the best way possible, and then challenge yourself tomorrow to be even better.
When you apply his concepts to life in Milb, I think you end up with a full appreciation for TxMom's post.
From talking with numerous players in Milb you cannot set your goals to be something general and/or ambiguous, like being better than the average major leaguer. That isn't a "goal" that gets you out of bed to take extra BP in late July when you have played 110 games, and it is 97 degrees and 95% humidity.
I would think most of them "aspire" to be a major leaguer who will stick, or they wouldn't do what it takes to play Milb.
What gets you to the cages early and what gets you there to take extra infield is a burning desire, combined with the need to get better than you were yesterday, combined with coaches who create an environment for that to happen, because they are there with you, or there before you and stay when you leave.
Milb isn't very artificial. When you arrive at Spring Training, there are about 120 position players. Every one of them knows that about 60 of them will receive playing assignments when Spring Training ends in 5 weeks. In Milb, many are competing for the opportunity to play tomorrow,and not be released and sent home.
If you pay attention to the major leagues, you are missing the details needed to improve your game, to get your next AB and more after that. When you are in Milb, there aren't many who are dreaming. They work very hard, everyday with the knowledge that if they don't get better tomorrow, they go home.
TxMom, that is a wonderful, thoughtful post and so applicable to this thread. Good luck to your son. Will look forward to watching him at AT&T this beginning in April.
I have just the article to back up what infielddad has posted. The Indians top draft pick from a couple seasons ago - Trevor Crowe - started thinking more about being in the majors after he "arrived" at Double A last year than focusing on the task at hand. In the article below, he clearly describes the pitfall's in that type of thinking - at least as it applies to his situation:

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/01/tribe_prospect_crowe_resets_cl.html

Here is an interesting quote from the article:
quote:
If Crowe hadn't been the Indians' No. 1 pick in 2005, who knows if he would have gotten 518 at-bats and a trip to the Arizona Fall League to find himself. The game not only favors the talented, but those perceived to have talent.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
quote:
What gets you to the cages early and what gets you there to take extra infield is a burning desire, combined with the need to get better than you were yesterday, combined with coaches who create an environment for that to happen, because they are there with you, or there before you and stay when you leave.



“He’s a hard worker: he shows up early and leaves late. His baseball IQ has gone up a whole lot.”

Do they measure that at showcases ?
Glad you mentioned "heart"

The toughest thing to evaluate in a player.


HEART

Thats why you better tell someone what your heart WANTS! and not what someone else's heart wants!!

Problem is parents hearts and players hearts don't match. Some hearts want the bonus and don't really want to play. Other hearts want the attention but lack the desire.....

We could get deep into that one word. So let me stop there!
Last edited by swingbuilder
There's a poster here who is very good friends with Hank King, who obviously has a knack for seeing things that others don't.

The bottom line, all you need is one scout to really believe in you, and you have to believe in yourself.

I do believe that Hank King is an agent at this time and his ability to identify talent is one of the important things to consider when seeking an advisor/agent.
Last edited by TPM
TPM - those are good points about Hank King. Notice he said that what caught his eye was the pop-up Eek

His name was Joey Belle at the time and he had a reputation at LSU as a hot-head/unstable and many teams back away from him. The Indians General manager at the time - Joe Klein, took a lot of heat for drating him in the second round given his emotional baggage. On draft day, the GM's main quote was that Belle hit the highest pop-ups he had ever seen in his life. The average fan was left scratching their heads Confused Joe Klein was right about that player. Albert Belle, although never considered a nice guy, was one heck of a player.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
quote:
Originally posted by fillsfan:
I am trying to find out what separates players who get drafted from players who do not. I know there are tools like pitch speed, running speed and power that can't be taught that stand out when you watch games. Are these the types of things that catch the eyes of scouts.
I know there is no science to this but I am curious as to what gets a kid drafted, even in the 20th - 30th rounds.


This is the original post question.

Another answer...........an agreement between the two parties that match
In regards to drafting players:

A) Be very skeptical about players that play dual sports splited with baseball
B) Injuries kill pitchers
C) Talent can come from anywhere.
D) Some tools guys pan out, others don't. Some sluggers pan out, others don't.

If I was a scouting director, I want my position players to be from the college ranks and my pitchers to be drafted out of high school. Unless its a talent like Justin Upton who will be considered a success if he only reaches half of his potential.
quote:
If I was a scouting director, I want my position players to be from the college ranks and my pitchers to be drafted out of high school.

William77,

Sure you don't mean the other way around?

You can take your pick of the college position players and I will take my pick of the high school draft picks. Of course neither of us can use players from the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Japan, etc. who are not elegible to be drafted.

You mentioned Justin Upton, so I won't include him. There are probably a lopt more, but here are some of the position players I get at each position... Smile

INF - Alex Rodriguez
INF - Derek Jeter
INF - David Wright
INF - Jimmy Rollins
INF - Chipper Jones
INF - Scott Rolen
INF - JJ Hardy
INF - Eric Chavez
INF - Marcus Giles
INF - Brandon Phillips
OF - Ken Griffey Jr
OF - Manny Ramirez
OF - Matt Holliday
OF - Carl Crawford
OF - Torii Hunter
OF - Gary Sheffield
OF - Jermaine Dye
OF - Grady Sizemore
OF - Jeff Francouer
OF - Jeremy Hermida
OF - Gary Matthews
OF - BJ Upton
OF - Cliff Floyd
OF - Adam Dunn
OF - Vernon Wells
OF - Delmon Young
1B - Prince Fielder
1B - Adrian Gonzalez
1B - Derrek Lee
1B - Jim Thome
1B - Justin Morneau
1B - Casey Kotchman
C - Joe Mauer
C - Ivan Rodriguez
C - Yadier Molina
C - Russell Martin
C - Jorge Posada
C - Brian McCann

Note: Looking over that list, I just realized something. There might be more than one future
Hall-of-Famer at every position.
Last edited by PGStaff
Well, all you said is true but:

Todd Helton 1B- College
Ryan Howard- College
Chase Utley- College
Aaron Rowand- College
Garrett Atkins-College
Dan Uggla- College
Barry Bonds- College
Khalil Greene- College
Jason Bay- College
Eric Byrnes-College
Mike Lowell- College
Travis Hafner- JC
Frank Thomas- College
Nick Swisher- College
Curtis Granderson- College
Jermaine Dye- College
Ryan Braun- College
Troy Tulowiski- College
Stephen Drew- College
Rickie Weeks-College
Mark Teixera- College
Hunter Pense-College
Ryan Zimmerman- College
Jacob Ellsbury-College
Mark Reynolds- College


I will not lie and say your list of position players will produce more HOF's but my list helped their teams quicker.
With regard to high school vs college, position players vs pitchers, so much depends on the MLB club's approach to their own farm system that I think it is difficult to balance the discussion. Some teams prefer the young ones, to groom on their own, while others prefer the college players to utilize some of their maturity and experience.

So many factors in all of this ... that's why they pay those GM's etc the big bucks !!! And some of them still don't get it right
Going back to the original question on the thread and some of the comments about intangibles. Interestingly, we have a local kid that just got drafted. Granted he was way down the list but he got drafted. His only tool really is he hits for power. He is a SS that runs a 7.3. IF throw is 86. He strikes out a lot and when he does he goes in the dug-out and throws a hissy fit. Just this week he got kicked out of the state Legion tournament b/c he threw a bat in the dug out after striking out and injured one of his teammates. He makes a lot of errors in the field, as well. When he is hot he can flat out hit the ball - but that is it. Makes you go back to the original question - why do some get drafted and some not. I think he got hot at the right place at the right time. He got lucky and got seen one of his good games. And, the scouts weren't there at the games where he had 2 errors and struck out twice, yelled at the ump and then threw his helmet across the field to his dugout.
Hit,

I'm guessing that if he is still playing legion ball someone hasn't signed for him to play pro ball. Maybe the MBL team had second thoughts. If he's holding out for $$$, I wish him luck. Hope he has a back-up plan.

Initially I was thinking that they saw a diamond in the rough. Maybe upon closer examination they saw the flaws.
Last edited by infidel_08

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